Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Knicks Win a Trophy & NBA Expansion Soon?? + New NBA Cup Location?

Episode Date: December 17, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to break down the Knicks big victory to claim the NBA Cup over the Spurs including what San Antonio showed the league during this run. Plus, the guys discuss some big updates from NBA commissioner Adam Silver including if there may be a new home for the NBA Cup, some major updates on league expansion and what may come of the Heat & Terry Rozier. Finally, we talk Cooper Flagg’s outrageous play of late and a passionate reaction from Ime Udoka. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday evening, where for the first time in my lifetime, I can say the New York Knicks are champions.

Joining us from Las Vegas, where they handed out the hardware for the NBA Cup tonight. And I have to say, I think some pretty good-looking gold medals that went with the NBA Cup with the Knicks championship of the Cup is Timontemps. I think the Knicks have won some Summer League championships in Vegas. Oh, I take it back. Let me rephrase then. I want to apologize. There certainly will only be one new banner raised for a championship at the garden in the last 52 years.

That's for the NBA Cup. It's going to be a banner. I know McMahon was very interested in whether it be a banner or not, but there will be. Joining us from Dallas, where he was ejected from Vegas, like the Thunder the other day, is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners, Thunderloot. Winning Street came to an end. Man, hurt to see that. Kind of freed up my January a little bit, though.

And there will be a ribbon raised to the rafters, not a banner, a ribbon, raised of the rafters at Madison Square Guard. Yeah, so a very impressive fourth quarter for the Knicks dominated the Spurs. You could see there, you could feel their experience in that moment. The Spurs were in great position through three quarters, the NBA Cup final. and the Knicks outscored him 35 to 19 in the fourth quarter. Pretty much, you know, team effort all across the board, including the unsung hero. The hero of New York didn't know they needed, Tyler Colick, we'll talk about in a few minutes here.

But Jalen Brunson, with a few baskets in the fourth, had three assists, Fontems. You were there, saw it. the Knicks you know I wouldn't say it was a command performance by them but they were the better team when it mattered and I think it was a pretty pretty impressive victory considering both teams were about we're almost as healthy as you could possibly expect at this point in the season. Yeah no I mean, Deuce McBride was out for the Knicks. Victor Ombayama is coming back from this calf strain and obviously playing some limited minutes for the spurs but both teams are pretty much healthy. Both teams played really hard. It's a competitive game.

Spurs controlled large stretches of the game. Look like they had a chance to maybe put it away late in the third when they got up by 10-11 and it felt like they were in pretty decent shape. But like you said, Tyler Colick, Mitchell Robinson, you know, really turned the game around. Carlisthi Towns looked like you banged his knee up a little bit. He left the game right before the end of the first half and then sat out a big chunk of the fourth or the second half grabbing at his knee a little bit on the bench but a check with the next make sure he was good to go this day he's going to come back in at

some point and part of the reason he didn't come back in was because Mitchell Robinson was absolutely trucking the spurs inside and yes Mitch Mitch's health is always a question you mentioned the Knicks being healthy Mitchell's healthy right now we'll see if he's healthy in the spring but when he is on the court it's maybe Stephen Adams is the only other guy in the league maybe who was as hard to contain on the boards as Mitchell Robinson. And he gave the Spurs a lot of trouble. And that was a big part of what flipped the game around. And yeah, like the Knicks came back and won it.

And I think it was impressive performance. And it was three really fun games here in Vegas. Yeah, I mean, Jaylon Brunson absolutely was a deserving MVP, is a deserving MVP. It was almost unanimous. My guy, Steve McGee, he was a TV guy in Oklahoma City, was the one. vote for somebody else, went for OG and Ovi. I'm not sure about that one. OG was certainly...

OG had a couple really good games here in Vegas. He was great Saturday. He had a really good game today. But yeah, my vote was pretty easy for Brunson. Yeah, I thought Brunson was an easy decision there. But this game, Mitchell Robinson was the guy who was the most dominant force in this game. He only played 18 minutes. Do that 10 offensive rebounds, 15 total rebound.

in 18 minutes. And you talk about the fourth quarter domination. Forget the score, 35 to 19. Rebounds were 23 to 6. Second chance points. Plus 17 rebounds in a quarter is insane. Second chance points 13 to 2. They gave up 32 second chance points in the game.

The Spurs hadn't given that up in any game since what our ESPN research folks have it. They hadn't given that up since game three of the 01 conference finals. against Shaq and the Lakers. And Mitchell Robinson and the Knicks just physically overpowered the Spurs in the second half. Yeah, I mean, this was actually an unusual game of rebounding because the Spurs had 18 offensive rebounds themselves, and they had 28 second chance points. 99% of the time, you have those kind of numbers.

You're saying, man, we dominated that aspect of the game. In fact, the rebounding was actually dead even going into the fourth quarter. But in the fourth, Mitchell Robinson had six offensive rebounds in the fourth quarter alone. And so many of those turn into threes because he gets it, he kicks it out, and it's either a three right there or, you know, move the ball one or two more times and an open look. So many, like those 32 second chance points, I don't know how many came off of his rebounds, but I would guess the vast majority. Yeah, I mean, there was a stretch there. Jordan Clarkson hit a couple of big threes in the end of the third quarter that helped the, the Knicks were behind, and they pulled back even basically on a stretch of threes.

And Jordan Clarkson hit two of them off Mitchell Robinson rebounds in, I think, a two or three possession span. But yeah, I mean, there were 60 second chance points in this game, 28 from the Spurs, 32 from the Knicks. That's very unusual. But I'm going to tell you that while, well, I don't want to. We'll talk about one Mignam in a second. I don't want to short shrift the Knicks. I think the Knicks got pretty good performances up and down. O.G. and Anobie had an excellent shooting game.

He had five threes at 28 points, had the most points in the game. Jalen Brunson was plus 15 in 41 minutes at eight assists and 25 points. He's obviously very big. But Bontems, in training camp, I'm pretty sure the Knicks were looking for a way to trade Tyler Colick. And I'm pretty sure there was not that much interest in him. And in the three knockout games, the quarterfinals that they played against the Raptors, semi-finals against the Magic, and then this game against the Spurs,

Tyler Colick is the backup point guard, getting minutes because Deuce McBride is out. He's plus 45 in those three games, Bontel. Tyler Colick and making all kinds of plays five rebounds, five assists, 14 points, has had to play a lot over the last month first in us, you know,

taking up some of the minutes when Jalen Brunson was out and now minutes when Deuce McBride is out. Like a very unexpected but very welcome to boost for the Knicks bench, which, as you know, dating back to last season, the Knicks bench has been, a key thing. They haven't gotten production out of some of the guys they brought in the offseason

Kurt and Gershon Yabaselli, who's not even in the rotation anymore. And, you know, just a tremendous lift that he gave him in this in this little knockout stage. Yeah, I mean, he was massive. I mean, Jalen Brunson got the MVP trophy and threw a curse word or two in and saying it, but immediately said, we won this game because of Tyler Colick, Mitchell Robinson, Jordan Clarkson, and OJN, and O'B, and he was right. Like, Jordan, Clarkson was out there making big shots and Robinson you guys went through that was awesome but yeah like Tyler colic is a guy that nix fans have wanted to play more the last couple of years he's a round pick on a market um you know there's a lot of talk about player development around the knicks

last year it centered around Tyler colic and becombe dodier their first round pick last year i thought some of the talk about that was kind of silly but this year he has gotten opportunities to play he's taken some advantage of him and like you said i mean he's out there going up against Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper and Derek Deerrin Fox and Victor Mbenyama's out there and he's making plays and getting in the lane hitting O'GN and O'OB in the corner for one of the biggest shots in the game down the stretch. And it was remarkable to see. And I got tweeted with a couple minutes left to go in the fourth quarter, just like everybody thought Tyler Colick is playing the whole fourth quarter of the cup final

and making several massive plays to help the Knicks win the game. It was a wild story and a pretty fun one too for, like you said, a guy who has not gotten a lot of opportunities. And by the way, is also one of these guys towards the end of the roster that stands to really make out getting $500,000 for winning the tournament. Like that's $530, sir. Yeah, I mean, that's not an insignificant amount of money for a guy who, you know, is on a minimum second round contract. I think he's getting a little bit more than the minimum. I think that was one of the things that was, I'm going to look it up right now. I'll pull up his salary right now.

But regardless, he ain't making Jalen Brunson's money or O'G and Obie's money. No, of course. I actually said that was one of the things that, you know, when they were sort of sniffing around, maybe trying to trade him, it was like, well, he's making OVI. He's making $2.1 million. So they went, you know, they gave him a multi-year guaranteed contract. And it was like, you know, several multiples of the minimum. them. By the way, still not saying he won't enjoy the 500K, but, you know, that was one of the things.

It was like, man, they're paying him, you know, guaranteed money, like, you know, sort of late first round money, and he wasn't really playing. But forget about all that now. But he certainly has been a success story. Yeah. So, and look, I'm going to be honest with you. Like, our friend Rob Perez, who is sort of the face and voice of the Knicks fans on social media, He is, he was celebrating the Knicks championship and, you know, title. What do you want to call it up? Maybe the championships too strong. Championship.

Championship. Championship. Yeah. Okay. Championship. Sure. But, you know, the Knicks have had nothing to celebrate in a while. This was the purpose of the Cup. Creating this was to give teams something else to play for, you know, and something else

to celebrate. And there's no reason, you know, spot. Mike Lee is out on the court there celebrating tonight. It's a big time memory. You know, the Knicks, they had quite a few fans there, right? And there was a, I left Vegas, but it looked like a great atmosphere. And there was a great match for the league. You have this guy who has a chance to be to face of the league for a long time.

And Victor Wimbayama, just this, you know, alien talent we've never seen before against one of the league's flagship franchises in the biggest market. So it was a great matchup for the league. And there were a bunch of Spurs fans in. They flew some of the Spurs supporter section, Victor created in. Like they had a bunch of the jackals. They were making a lot of noise. It was a good atmosphere in the building.

Like it was the three games here in Vegas were really good. Like it was a really good conclusion to the event. We'll see where the event is next year. Feel pretty confident it's not going to be back here in Las Vegas, so it could be. But the games here were good. The atmosphere was good today. It was a really fun final. Nick's very deserving champion.

That's Jackals, not Jackass, which the USWB once accused Wendy of being in a great pod moment. Yeah, and I stand by my position in that. So he probably stands by his. So the first three NBA Cups, you say whatever you want. You can say something about the floor. You can say something about playing a semi-final game at two in the afternoon on a Thursday, which is what they did the first year in Vegas. You can say anything you want.

LeBron and the Lakers won at the first year. Janice and the Bucks won at the second year over the Thunder who were the champions. And this year, the Knicks win it over Victor Wimbunyama and the Spurs. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Okay. So in the semi-final, when the Spurs had that great victory against the Thunder, Victor Ombiama came off the bench, coming back from the calf injury, which he did again tonight strategically. and he was absolutely dominant in the 20,

I think 21 minutes he played McMahon in the semifinal. I think he was plus 20 and 21 minutes or plus 21 and 20 minutes or something like that. He was plus 21 and 21 minutes and they were plus, they were minus 19, the other 27. Right. And from the beginning of this season, the thing that we were super impressed by was Victor Wembeyanama's total embracing of being a big man. Yeah, he wasn't a band.

ending the three-pointer, but it was, you know, the option number one is to get thyself to the basket. Use your size, use your improved frame and your strength, and take advantage on the inside, play the game from inside out, and it was jaw-dropping. Well, in the fourth quarter of this game, Victor did not start the fourth quarter. He came, and they lost the lead when he was on the bench, just to be clear. I don't want to say it's all on him. When they, when they, when they did bring him in with eight minutes left to go in the game. They had already gotten a little bit of trouble. But Victor's temperament over that last eight minutes was not what you want to see for a

player of his level. He takes four shots, three of them are threes. I haven't reviewed the tape, but off top of my head, I thought two of them were bailout situations when he did not need to take that shot. He goes 0 of 4, 0 of 3 from 3 point range, does not have a rebound. in that while the Knicks are dominating on the boards, Victor is nowhere to be found on the boards. Again, you could show me situations maybe where he was in position

and had fought and the ball doesn't bounce his way. I'm doing this right after the game. But, Bontemst, that is not what you need. If there's going to be a takeaway from this game, Victor can't have a non-impactful fourth quarter in a game that's decided, a game with stakes where it's decided in the fourth quarter. That's a very, very high.

level analysis there. The best player on the spurs needs to be better if the spurs are going to win high-level games. I would agree with that. And look, I would say that Victor Wembeyanamo was able to really exert his physicality on the game on Saturday, right? He was doing all the flexing. He's, you know, the thunder were playing smaller for a lot of that fourth quarter, and he was taking advantage of that and across that game, right? Isaiah Hartnstein had just come back, so he and Chet didn't play a ton of minutes together in that game either. He had Mitchell Robinson leaning on him in this game. And, you know, I think that played a factor. Like Mitchell Robinson's size inside is a lot for anybody to handle, including Victor. He's taller than Mitchell by a couple inches, but it ain't the usual,

you know, six, eight, ten, twelve inches he's got on guys. And Mitchell might be two of Victor put together physically. So, you know, like he definitely was floating around more on the perimeter late in the game. I thought they were down five or six or eight and it felt like he was trying to get some six point shots back, took a couple quick threes. But, you know, like you said, I think this was a, this was an example overall, I think, of a young Spurs team that has not been in these situations before that did a great job on Saturday night, did a less great job today. And I think we'll walk away from this weekend, feeling great about the learning experience that it was. And it is not exactly what a late round playoff series is going to be, but they're

going to be more prepared for what it'll be like in the conference semifinals or the conference finals now than they were a week ago after playing the Thunder on Saturday, after playing the Lakers in L.A. last week and winning without Victor and going toe to toe with the experienced Nick's team that's been in the conference finals that's won a playoff series the last few years. So yeah, it wasn't a great fourth quarter from Victor. It wasn't a great fourth quarter from the Spurs. But I have come away from this weekend, supremely impressed by the Spurs. And to me, they're clearly one of the four best teams in the West with the two teams that

played in Denver, Monday night, the Rockets and the Nuggets. And then obviously the defending champions, do they beat on Saturday? One astroo. I'm sorry to jump in, McMahon, but just one asterix I want to point out because Victor just just did his press conference. He was tearing up in the press conference and apparently said that he lost somebody today. I don't know what that means if that means someone passed away

and then only took one more question and then left. So I don't know how to factor that in. I mean, I'm factoring what I could see between the four lines on this. Yeah, I believe he meant that somebody closed to him passed away today. he mentioned that his eyes welled up with tears and it was a brief post-game media availability for him which obviously you know that's unfortunate um as far as the basketball goes he was great in the

third quarter but it was hit a couple threes hit a tough you know kind of a long uh midranger over well can i can i jump in really quick because of something i wanted to bring up earlier I happen to be sitting on the side of the court during this one sequence in the third quarter, the one you're mentioning when Victor got hot and started making shots all over the place. And Tyler Colick hit a shot at the other end. And I don't know if this got caught on TV, but he did the like finger guns at Victor running back. And Victor had a couple words for him going by. It looked like he was semi-amused by it.

And the person I was sitting with, I said, I can promise you, Victor's getting the ball and shooting it right now. I don't know if it's going to go in, but he's going to get it and shoot it. And sure enough, he gets the ball in the wing, he squares up, he rises up and hit one of, I think, as you mentioned, like three or four shots he hit right in a row in that run in the third quarter. I just, I meant to bring that up on the pod. I forgot to bring it up earlier to talk about Tyler Cole.

Like, I didn't want to not bring it up because it was, I actually laughed out loud when I saw it. It was amazing. But anyway, I do think that Wimby got a little too perimeter oriented, a little too jump or happy down the stretch. Stage fright's not a factor with this guy, though. Okay? This guy loves the stage, loves pressure situations.

You know, we've seen some of his performances, you know, in the Olympics. Like we saw his performance the other day against the thunder. And I also, we don't have to look back too far for a reminder that, hey, a rough championship game performance, probably isn't something you want to draw just big, grand conclusions from. Remember, the Thunder got their butts whipped pretty good by the Bucks in the championship game last year. Shea did not have a very good game. Nope. They ended up having a pretty damn good season.

And I'm not saying that the Spurs is going to win the championship, but because the Thunder still exists, what I'm telling you is this whole NBA Cup was kind of the Spurs announced to the league were on our way we might already be here. And they're going to be a force to be reckless. It was interesting though. Dearon Fox, Fount Tim, I'm not sure. Were you in there in his press conference?

That was not. So he was asked basically about basically, hey, in so many words, like, you know, does a team have to have playoff failure on the path to a championship? And he kind of said, hey, that typically tends to be the way it goes. And he basically said, yeah, this team's going to have to have some growing pains to get to that level.

And I thought that was interesting. Harrison Barnes has championship experience. Luke Cornett has championship experience. You know, Fox just has a playoff series. You know, they've got some guys, you know, Stefan Castle has college championship experience. But this is still a very young team. and the question was kind of getting out, like how valuable is this, you know, elimination game stuff in the cup to a team that's trying to become a championship contender? But I thought it was interesting that Fox kind of said, I'm putting words in his mouth here in paraphrase, but in so many words, basically,

I said, yeah, we're going to have to get our nose-blooded a little bit in the playoffs before we'll be ready to really compete for a championship, probably. Well, there's no team in basically the history of the league that's ever won it without that. So, I mean, he's also just, yeah, I mean, he's just stating a fairly obvious fact there, too. But by the way, Stefan Castle was great in these elimination games. He didn't shoot the ball great today, but at 12 turnovers or 12 assists at two turnovers, the Nicks had part of the reason Knicks had extra ball hang out there was because he is such a menace on the ball. Yeah, man, he is. And Dylan Harper also, I mean, we talked about it on the last spot, just how big.

physically big and imposing the spurs are across the board it's really something you have to see in person to really appreciate um and dylan harper who is awesome and uh you know it's coming off the bench but at 21 hit five threes he's he's awesome like they're they're really impressive they're really fun to watch um it's we talked about the other day i mean the texas triangle plus okayc assuming cooper gets any help is going to just be an absolute menace for teams to deal with for years to come. And like I said, I think we saw the Pacers two years ago announced themselves in this tournament with Tyrese Alberton's run to the cup final.

We saw the Thunder win the title, obviously, after getting to the Cup final last year. The Rockets getting to Vegas, I think, was part of their ascension. And I think there's little doubt that coming out of this tournament, San Antonio, has gained a lot of confidence. like I was around their team a lot the last few days. You've been around them a bunch this year, McMahon, but you saw them when they were here. Like those guys felt really good about winning that game Saturday.

They feel really confident about their team. You know, I think for a young team that's still got to go through those growing pains, I think this was an awesome experience for them. And I definitely think they're going to be a lot better for it come to spring. Yeah, and I think that is sort of the legacy so far of the NBA Cup. is that it has been not only relevant, whatever you want to argue in the moment about celebrating it, it has been relevant for the season that it's in.

More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Before the game, Bontemps, there's what maybe three or four times a year where you are part of the contingency that meets with Adam Silver. That happened again before the Cup today. I wonder if you could go down sort of the relevant news things. Let's start with. It may not be the headline, but let's start with what we were just talking about,

which was the future of the NBA Cup. Well, the irony is he didn't actually get asked about the future of the NBA Cup at his press conference. However, he did get asked about it on Amazon Prime, who hosts the NBA Cup. And so they were talking about it. And Adam said, we're talking with Amazon Prime, ironically, even though he's on Amazon Prime. He was sitting with Jay Marine, who's the head of sports at Amazon. during the game. Correct. We're talking with Amazon Prime about whether it makes sense to maybe go to some unique locations for the final game. They've suggested, for example, some storied college aren't,

so we're looking at other ways we can do this. Well, obviously, I wrote, I reported on Monday that the NBA is considering moving the championship game out of Las Vegas to somewhere else. They already have announced to move to the semifinals back to the home sites for next season. And Adam Silver went to Duke, Cameron, Indoorce, stadium is a storied arena. I'm not saying that this game will be played in Durham, North Carolina next year. But I would say by, I would say by Adam saying that, though, I would say that you immediately have to put it on the short list of places where this game will be held next year. So Jackson has put in the chat, the GMA Wireless Dome, which used to be called the Carrier Dome.

This game will not be played with the Carrier Dome because they're not going to try to be getting 40,000 people to see. Yeah, they don't want 25,000 if you see. No, the other. The other thing about Cameron indoor stadium, whatever you think about this idea that is a very small arena with not a lot of seats. And if you're trying to put on a big TV production, I could see why Amazon would go, that's a good idea. Does Aaron Mnodar have a video board? I don't, I don't know. It does have a video board of some sort. Okay.

I'm sure they can get the Cameron crazies out there and kind of get that kind of a scene going. Logistics, I don't know. I've never been there. I don't know like logistically about hosting. an NBA event. Well, let's just, McMahon, let's just reverse engineer this.

How many quote-unquote story college venues are there? I mean, you think of the Blue Bloods, you think Duke, Carolina, Kentucky. Well, you're thinking like Rupperina,

you're thinking Hinkle Fieldhouse. Hinkle Fieldhouse in Indianapolis would be pretty cool. I played pickup ball during the finals. Yeah, maybe even more storied. Cameron, but Hinkle Fieldhouse would be a cool one.

Cameron Indoor would be a cool one. Fogg Allen and Lauren. Lawrence, Kansas is obviously a very famous one. Ollie Pavilion in L.A. is another one. I think the key thing with all of those places, at least most of them, like Rupp Arena's got a million seats in it. And the Louisville Arena, I can't think of it. It's also got a million seats in it.

Louisville Arena is not storied. It's true. But other than Rupp Arena, most of the other ones are under 10,000 seats. Like, Deuce Capacity Jackson just put in here is a little over 9,000 seats. So, you know, these games have been played in a normal 17, 18, 19,000 seat arena, and they've had a bunch of empty seats for these games. So I don't know where the game is going to be played. I don't have concrete reporting on that.

You know what's a storied college venue? What's that? Don't take a brass. Madison Square Garden. I was going to say, actually, this. And I have an idea. I have an idea. Two things I would like the champions to get.

One, I think I've mentioned this before, the ultimate tiebreakers. You don't get an extra win, but you get an asterisk by your record. If you end up in a tie, I don't care, head-to-head, whatever, regardless of circumstances. That's interesting. You get the tiebreaker. That's it. I have to admit it's a very good idea that McMahon has. It makes fans care.

Like, okay, cool. Rich guys got richer. That's something for fans, Roof or two. I think if you win the championship, you host the championship game the next year. How about that? You hope you're automatically going to buy into the championship? No, but it's at your bill. No, like the game.

The A year would be in Milwaukee. Why not? No, because let's say that happened. And, you know, people in Milwaukee are not showing up to a Nick Spurs game. Okay. People go to the All-Star game in NBA cities. Yeah, because they know they're going to see the All-Stars. I think it will be interesting to see what they decide to do.

It'll be interesting to see what they decide to do. But I would say that Cameron Indoor is probably a pretty good bet, if I'm betting based off Adam Silver saying that. Jackson asked about this going to Europe. I think whether it's in Europe or Abu Dhabi or China or wherever you want to say is like an exotic overseas destination. Can we bring the Serbian fans to Abu Dhabi now? Now we're cooking.

They'll actually cover it next year. The problem with any of those places is this is not going to change on the schedule from where it is and therefore the travel component. It's already hard for teams like say Orlando, right? Orlando had to fly about 5,000 miles to go back and forth to Vegas and then go to Denver for the start of their West Coast trip after this thing. Teams aren't going to want to fly to Paris or Lombie or this is not going to Europe. This is not going to Europe. It's not going overseas.

I've asked, I can't remember if it was on the record. I asked Adam about it when I was in the Middle East because Emirates is the title sponsor, which is Dubai. They have a beautiful arena, Coca-Cola Arena in Dubai. And I asked him, and he's like, no, that's not happening. So I can't know if that was on the record, but I just put it on the record. I have an arena or no. What's that? Does Cancun have an arena?

I'm not sure. You know, the more I'm thinking about this is sitting here, Hinkle Fieldhouse makes a lot of sense if you're going to do it at a college arena. Because one of the biggest complaints teams have had is that it's uneven travel, right? like you've got to go to Vegas or to go to North Carolina, you're going to one end of the country or the other. Whereas there's a ton of hotels in Indy. It's in the middle of Amada places, radio hosting events. And it's centrally located in the country. So like for everybody, the travel isn't so bad.

So I don't know where, like I said, the only concrete reporting I had going into Monday was that this thing was definitely, there's definitely going to be an open possibility of being played elsewhere. I do think the atmosphere was very good at the game Tuesday night, and I do think having a Knicks fan base in the game and a Spurs fan base where they were actively bringing fans here really did help with that. But yeah, all options are clearly on the table, and it'll be interesting to see what they choose to do.

All right. What else did Adam? What else you got, McMahon? I was going to ask, I was sure the schedule is going to be the exact same. Yes, the NBA has said the scheduling is going to be the same. We're burying the very important lead from the press conference. Which was, yes, for the first time.

So to back up, it's almost exactly five years ago since I asked Adam Silver on a Zoom call, I believe, before the season started in 2020, December of 2020, about expansion. And he opened the door for the first time to the possibility of expansion. Now, since then, there's been all these ups and downs and peaks and valleys. Our guy Kevin Pelton has been losing his mind for five years, hoping that the Seattle Super Exxonics will come back. as is every other fan in Seattle, as of fans here in Vegas, as of fans elsewhere. And I asked Adam tonight about, I asked some sort of an unrelated question, or semi-related question to expansion that he kind of danced around. And then I just asked for a basic update on Europe and expansion from what he said in September.

And frankly, I didn't think he was going to say a whole lot. However, he then said, I'm pulling up the quote right now, quote, I'd say in terms of domestic expansion, that is something we're continuing to look at. He then went on to talk about Vegas and Seattle and how great Vegas and Seattle are. He then said this, I think now we're in the process of working with our teams,

engaging the level of interest and having a better understanding of what the economics would be on the ground for those particular teams and what a pro forma would look like for them. And then sometime in 2026, we will make a determination. This is easily the most definitive and the first time there's ever been any kind of timeline,

put on expansion. And I would say, now, I would say a couple of things. If you're a fan in Seattle and you're a fan in Las Vegas, I think the most important thing that Adam said beyond the timeline part was, we're sensitive that there's this notion that we're somehow teasing these markets because I've known we've been talking about this for a while. And then he went on to say, at length, how great a market Seattle is and how great a market Las Vegas is.

So, well, I sit here right now and say with 100% certainty by this time next year, there will be an expansion process underway to have two teams in Seattle and Las Vegas? No, because we have learned that nothing is certain in the NBA after the Luca trade. However, I think if you're a fan of one of those teams or if you're a fan who wants to see expansion, that answer to me sounded like a guy who's getting ready for expansion to come to the NBA next year. And that was a much more definitive statement. Not to be clear. It's not going to be.

Right. That we're finally that the announcement of this is happening. finally happening after years and years of discussion and debate and are we doing it? Are we not? What's happening? This was easily like him saying that Adam doesn't throw out dates like that casually. Yeah. He created a deadline.

There was nobody saying what's the deadline, Adam? What's the deadline? That's right. I expected him to say what he said in September, which is because I asked him in September, it seems like Europe's ahead of expansion. Is that fair? and he very stridently, I thought interesting at the time, stridently pushed back on that and said, no, the parallel tracks,

we're working on both of them. I just thought he was going to say, yeah, we don't really have an update, we're looking at it, whatever. For him to end it with, we're going to have a decision next year. We don't want to seem like we're teasing people. Like, yes, maybe there's a world where they come back and say, we just don't want to do it. However, for as long as this has been talked about and for the amount of money

that these teams would generate, which I think would be somewhere between $12 and $15 billion, dollars if there's two teams for the 30 NBA owners, which means they would get a check for four to $500 million each, depending on where it falls in that range. I have always felt if it got to that point, expansion will happen. And I would say today was a very good day if you're a fan of one of those places hoping for a team to come to your market. Well, you also heard Wendy talk about the M80s being thrown at the court in Serbia.

You don't want to be in Europe. So, what do you go, Wendy? Yeah. So, you know, this is not a binding, understand, you know, thing. He could just as easily a year from now say, yeah, we said 26, but we meant 27. But I think Bond Tempsons read is correct. I think, you know, one of the things that Adam said tonight, he has said it before, is that what you're worried about is diluting the equity.

What he means by that is that there's, you know, there's 30 share, the $77 billion TV deal. and obviously there's more revenue than that, but that's the primary revenue. The $77 billion TV deal, the NBA keeps half of it roughly, other half goes to the players, and they split it amongst 30. If you split it amongst 32,

it's less money, and then it's that way going forward, you know, forever more. But the price of teams has gone up when you have the trailblazers selling for $4 billion, you know, expansion was going to be, more than that, as Bontem says. So there becomes a spot where the math flip sides upside down.

I think we're there. The question that I would have is the MBA in a position to two things. One, are the 28 markets currently operating healthy enough where relocation should not be considered at all? I know that relocation is excited. I asked Adam Silver that question, because perhaps Brian and I talked about this beforehand as a game planning a question to ask him. And And what? Leave me out of it. Thanks. Go on.

Well, I'm giving Brian credit. And Adam said it was not a related topic to expansion, that there are two separate things. And that it's not like you rank the markets and say, well, if we can move the worst market somewhere else, that means we shouldn't expand. Which, you know, I didn't think he was going to say, yes, we don't have strong enough markets. We're not going to expand. But again, all of that points to. to me that this is something I think the league wants to do. And it's a matter of getting it over the line with the owners.

And I think they will get it over the line with the owners because when Adam Silver wants to do something like the NBA Cup, like the playing tournament, like these other things, like NBA Europe, like NBA Europe, they tend to happen. Yeah. Well, and considering who the bosses are at Omaha, we probably don't want to talk about relocation candidates anyways. Well, when I was 17 years old, the Cleveland Browns left, I'm certainly sensitive. is sensitive to what happens to a city when you lose the heart and soul of the team.

But that said, there are teams that are being absolutely kept alive by revenue sharing. And that is something to pay attention to. The other thing that Adam talked about that I think is interesting, Bontemps, was he was asked about what something else that you've written about recently. You and Bobby Marks wrote about recently, which is what he thinks can happen to address the issue that the Miami Heat are facing with Terry Rozier in limbo and no man's land, him existing on their cap, that mowing a first round pick, and most importantly, not knowing when the trade happened that there had been this investigation

and that this was potentially hanging over him. This is not so much about anything else besides that. It's, you know, because when he was asked a question, Adam Silver tonight, gave a long lawyerly answer about, well, we don't have the investigative power of the FBI. We, you know, we can't get ahead of the justice system. He is, you know, charged but not proven guilty. That's all fine. But, but Bontem's, what he said was more important, what he said about what he could do about it. Yeah, I mean, he talked about that they're going to.

you know, go through and see if they can come up with some solution for the heat. I thought, frankly, this was a, you know, you call it an unprecedented situation, which it is. I would also say, I thought this was a very lawyerly way to not say a whole lot about this. And ultimately, I think this is going to end up in the place where I thought it's going to end up the whole time, which is I don't know for sure if the heat are going to file a grievance or not. However, I think if they do file a grievance, they're not going to win because the NBA is not going to open up some can of worms or they're going to retroactively go back on trades that happened in the past. However, the fact that Terry Rozier is still on the team, I think to me, is a clear indication that Heat believe if they want to trade Terry Rozier, they'll be able to trade Terriere this season. And my assumption is that is how this will be enumerated if it is eventually, which is if the Heat want to make some deal to try to get better this year with Terry Rozier on their roster, they'll be able to try to try.

trade them and the team will then waive them that gets them and that will be that. But I don't, if I was a Miami Heat fan, I would not anticipate getting a future draft pick back or getting their draft pick back because that opens up so many further problems that I don't think they're going to watch. And Adam, Adam said he goes, he kind of passed the buck. He's like, how do he put? He's like, I'm in, he said he would consult with other teams, which. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. And the other teams in the league and see if there's any satisfactory relief, but at the moment if there is none. Hey, other teams, between other teams, who votes that we should give the Miami Heat satisfactory relief?

Which again, maybe the set, yeah, exactly. It's the satisfactory relief that you change the rules going forward, so you have to, these things have to be disclosed. I mean, I don't know if that's happening. We had pros and cons of that in our story.

Maybe it's something like that. But I think the most important thing is for like people looking at the Heat's books thinking, are they going to get, maybe they will get this pick back. I would say that is not going to have. getting the pick back. But they have to be able to trade Rosier.

The league has given... There have been times in the past where the league has given compensatory picks. It's rare, but it has happened. But you're not getting like the ninth pick in the next year's draft. So it's not going to be something that's going to change the course of your franchise. But again, if you can trade guys who are injured and out for the year, in this situation, I don't see why the heat should not. be allowed to trade Terry Rosary and to be clear they're trading these salary they're not

trading the player they're trading to make the math working and trade I don't see why the heat should be handcuffed on the way that's not the greatest word to use right now why the heat should not be permitted to do that I would agree with you I would agree with you I don't know if that's going to satisfy the the folks in Miami who are looking for a pound of flesh here McMahon you were traveling back from Vegas actually the game was in Salt Lake City so you wouldn't have been there anyway. Cooper flagged at 42 points, 42 points on Monday night. The Mavericks lost the game of the jazz.

And the jazz, by the way, are not easy to beat in Salt Lake City. They are a better team than I think they intended to be. But losing in Salt Lake City is not the end of the world. But Cooper Flag impressed me so much with this performance, McMahon, not only because he had 42. But when you watch how he got the scoring, it was so much of it was done on ice. He was creating his own shots. He was doing it at all three levels. He, I don't know, he might have had like five or six. What's that? Two of the three levels. He's a, he's a two level scorer now. He's not a three-point shooter. He made threes in this game. He's not a three-point

shooter. Okay. But in this game, you scored at all three levels. And I think he made like, he made A3 in this game. He went one for four, which is about what he does. All right, fine. Two levels. But at your point, he's a six foot nine guy who is strong already and is going to fill out. He's going to be a monster physically. I as a good handle, a great left hand.

That's what I was going to say. I think he had six baskets or so in this game with his left hand. He's a dominant left hand driver and finisher. He's already very good at using his size and his strength. While he doesn't have a three-point shot, that's going to have to be completely remade. He does have really nice touch around the basket, you know, in the post and in the mid-range. And look, breaking news, he's not a point guard. The whole experiment with him at a point guard was an utter failure, although maybe not a failure.

The point of it was he was never supposed to be a point guard long term. the point was it was supposed to be on ball reps for him to continue to grow his game and get better as a player, which by the way, it helped him do that. I think the point might have been to show how flawed the roster was. But anyway, I mean, listen, it could be that too. But the bottom line is it put the guy in uncomfortable positions as a young player to improve and get better. And he did that. And yeah, the second he got put in his natural position, what did he do? He started putting up monster games night after night because the guy is an incredible prospect. And it was, it was. remains, the events of the last year in Dallas remain completely insane and unbelievable. The fact that they made the trade that was such a complete disaster in February remains one of the most insane things has ever happened in the league. And then you follow it up by the plan leading to Cooper Flag in May and June in the draft. And now you walk into another franchise level, you know, elite mega prospect to immediately pick the baton up.

because again, imagine where Dallas would be if Cooper Flagg was playing for any other team in the league. And they didn't have the number one. They'd be, it'd be a crater. Right. It'd be an asteroid induced crater. And instead, they have hope simply because this guy is on the team. Like, that's how good he is. Since they pulled him from the point guard role and just played him at his natural position, which, you know, whatever, forward, three, four, whatever it is.

Yep. He's averaging 20.2 points. shooting 51.4% from the floor. 59% on twos. And again, those aren't all dunks and layups. There's a lot of mid-rangers. Yep. I mean, and he's a good defensive player.

And all that stuff. When scouts were gushing about Cooper flag going into the draft, scoring was down the list of reasons that they were so excited about him. And the question was, hey, is he going to be a number one offensive option? Now, there's even, everyone in the Mavericks obviously loves this kid. I've even talked to people with the Mavericks who says, you know what, if we're a championship team, maybe it's a 1A, 1B, and he can be a 1B, you know, we don't know how good of a score he can be, but what he's telling you is, he might be a big-time score, too.

Youngest guy ever to get 35, youngest ever get 40 plus now. And, you know, like, this is a guy. who's just scratching the surface if he develops a three-point shot which that's the number one skill he's gonna he's gonna develop he's he's gonna develop a three-point shot the shot is not he does not have a michael kid gilchris jump shot his jump shot's fine he'll he'll make three-pointers you know how rare it is for an 18-year-old to be able to physically compete he he he doesn't get pushed around he he has any any already you can tell he already has confidence that he can can he can get the corner turned on a guy he can he can use his hip he can use his shoulder he can

create contact like it is i mean forget about just you know being able to handle all of the things being thrown at you in an NBA game and all the to be to be not physically bumped around and is a big like that man there's a reason all these stats are him and lebron it's him and lebron and lebron and him and lebron for a reason i'm not saying he's going to be lebron necessarily But like, it's, there's a reason he's, it's him and he and LeBron. Because like when Kobe came in the league at 18, he wasn't physically ready to do that. Like a lot of these guys, a lot of the high school guys in the 90s who came in, we're not physically ready to do that.

And remember, Cooper Flag was supposed to be a freshman in college this year. He reclassified to move up, which is why we're talking about with all these 18 year old stats. And yeah, like the fact he can come in and immediately handle the physical nature of the league. Like, yeah, it's part of why he's a very special prospect. I also liked, and I know that. he doesn't exactly like, you know, show a lot of emotion in the media and stuff, McMahon. I like the way he handled the, you know, how he did it.

Like he was like, you know, it was a, you know, whatever was fine, but we lost. Like, you know, we've all seen, we've all seen players who walked out of arena's pretty happy because they put a big stat lines in a loss. He will never be that guy. He, this, there are a guy, everybody loves to win. A lot of, you know, the best hate losing, detect. He's a hate losing guy. And dude, this is a guy who storms off the golf course if his mom beats him.

He hates losing, trust me. But again, when you thought, like I was talking to a GM from another team earlier this year, and he was like, man, this kid is special. And all he kept talking about wasn't size, skill, athleticism. He was like, God, the way this kid competes is just special. Like, I've told this story on the podcast before. I went to watch and play in the City of Palms Tournament in Fort Myers with Bobby a couple years ago when he was still in high school at Montford.

They had one of the best high school teams ever. I think they had six guys drafted in the first round this year off that team. And they were beating this team by 70 points or something. I mean, they were destroying him. And Cooper is in a defensive stance 92 feet from the basket, like trying to take the ball off the kid in front of him. Like he reminds me of Kevin Garnett from a competitive standpoint. He's like as competitive a person who's ever seen in the league.

Like he's that kind of guy and has always been seen as a A plus teammate and is a prototypical six nine wing to build around like can do everything at both ends. Like yeah, like it just remains unbelievable the sequence of events in Dallas and the fact that he's sitting there because I it's it's just it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's unfathable will think about where Dallas would be if they hadn't won the lottery. And they didn't have this guy sitting there right now. By the time this pod comes out, what's our guess

about how much Emeo Doca will be fined for what he said about the officials after that brutal loss to the nuggets in overtime on Monday? That was a great game by the way. Yokic, Murray, Shangoon, Durant. Everybody was playing great basketball. Yolkich, whether three triple doubles in that game.

But he said it was the most poorly officiated game he'd seen it a long time. And what do you say? He said that one of the officials shouldn't have been out there and the other one was starstruck. The other one being the crew chief of starstruck, which dude, the crew chief was Zach Zarba who's got the best care of NBA. He didn't get starstruck by any of the NBA, like verified top three official. Yeah. So listen, here's a thing, though. Everybody's got off nights. Look, San Diego, $50,000. I think you should take 10 grand off per blown call the winning against his team in the last two-minute report.

So if it's 50, it can only be 20 because there was three of them in overtime, and it was by the way, not even the most controversial called the game, which was the foul that was called on a men-tomsome, like 2.3 seconds left to regulation. I just don't think there was a good enough camera angle on that. Well, with all due respect to Tim Hardaway, Jr., he literally dove. You heard taking a dive. He literally dove on an inbound play. It was a soccer play.

Felt the contact, it went down and got the call. I tell you what, though, it was still a hell of a game. Unbelievable shot making. Joker and Jamal Murray, by the way, are both having the best offense. I know, man. In that pick and roll, holy hell. And my point here is as much as we all believe we're going to be in Bricktown again in July. I'm sorry, in June.

Dude, the Spurs. He'll be there in July. You just won't go home. Yes, I will. unless I read it's competition the spurs made a hell of a statement and you know the thunder I'm sorry the rockets and nuggets are going you know they're not just going to roll over for anybody for as frustrated as the rockets

were at the fishing they were very frustrated a parent shangoon's had an awesome year had a lot of silly fouls late in that game look tired late in that game obviously a huge challenge going up against the kolyokits but like again like we're talking about the spurs for a young team like that those guys haven't won a playoff series yet him and a men thomps Like that's going to be the next step. Like going toe to toe to yokech is really hard.

All right. Thank you very much for watching listening to The Hoop Collective. Thank you to Jackson for putting it all together. Thank you to Bon Temson McMahon, who stayed up late. And we'll talk to you later this week. Oh, real quick. Friday, can I say, Bon Temps? Yeah, sure.

You could say. The first Bon Temp's straw poll. BS poll, baby. We'll be released. And we will be. We almost have the entire. our ballot done. Will there be any jackassery?

That's going to find out. There will be something. Adios amigos.