Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Lakers Bounce Back, Bucks Time To Panic? Knicks In Trouble?

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk the Lakers’ leveling the series in a sluggish battle with the Wolves before talking the Pacers dominating the Bucks to go up 2-0 in the series & what that could mean for the future in Milwaukee. Then, the crew talks the incredible battles so far in the Clippers-Nuggets matchup and the Knicks struggling against the Pistons at MSG. Finally, we talk the latest front office moves around the NBA that haven’t gotten enough attention. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing early on Wednesday morning after the Lakers beat the Timberwolves in a rock fight,

but I would prefer never to speak of again. But most of America did not make it to the end of this game, and I congratulate you all. Joining us from New York City, where the Knicks are not looking so great after a game two loss to the Tip Pistons is Tim Bontam. I thought Knicks Pistons was ugly, but it didn't have anything on Lakers' Wolves. That was a rough watch. Joining us from Oklahoma City

where he watched the Thunder go ahead of the Grizzlies 2-0 in a series that everybody can't wait to get over, including our guy, Band McMahon. Howdy, partners, I would say most prominently can't wait to get it over is probably the Grizzlies.

I'm trying to figure out that like little flight track or technology to make sure their plane actually goes to Memphis and not Cancun. This was like, I think what, was the 17 points. Was that the final? That's 19.

I think it was 19. 51 plus 19. 1189. 18. They actually took a bucket away from the Grizzlies with five seconds left. They scored a basket. I don't know why they took it away, but they did. Basket interference, they called.

But the Grizzlies average margin of defeat to the Thunder this year is like over 20. So technically you can say. It's right around 19. It was, oh, no, actually, you're wrong. I'm wrong. My bad. You talk. Anyway.

You could argue. It was 18.8 in the regular season, then they got a 51 pointer in the game one. You could argue that the Grizzlies made progress on this one. Hey, they told us they would never play that bad again, and they almost sliced it in a third. They almost got there. They jumped over that very low bar. Shea's played terribly the first two games, and they're like sniffing the largest average margin, the largest margin of victory over two games in the history of the league.

So that sort of, I don't know what else I can say about that. more sums up that series. We don't need to talk about this series. It's bad series. Yes, let's move along. It will be well rested for the second round. Move it along, which is what I wanted to say about the fourth quarter of this Lakers Timberwolves game. All right, look, the Lakers won. They had to win. If they lost this game, they would have been in big trouble. They got done what they needed to get done. Thumbs up. Period. New paragraph. I'm not so sure they should still feel good about the way they're playing. Luca played a strong game overall, mostly because he just got to the free throw line

and made his free throws. But the fourth quarter of this game was like watching it was like watching bumper cars. It would be like if you were watching bumper cars, but there was referees out there blowing whistles on the bumper cars and stopping the bumper cars when you just wanted to get through the ride

so you could get out of the bumper cars. Just have the timer go off. We're just waiting for it. for the timer to go off. Dude, the fourth quarter score was 20 to 13. And it felt like it was eight to five. Because nobody could make a shot. Nobody could hold out of the ball.

There were fouls everywhere. It was, it was awful. Luca and LeBron in the fourth quarter combined to go three of 13 with three turnovers. I, you know, LeBron made a couple of defensive plays. The Lakers just, just in general,

played tougher, although J.J. Reddick was being driven crazy in this. game. Like he, at one point, he called a rage time out and said 11 four-letter words because, because they lined up incorrectly on an inbound's play.

Like, it's one-one, but I just don't think anybody from the Lakers party can be really happy about the way things are going. But, okay, they won. You know, Luca did what he had to do. The other headline I would say from this game,

Aunt has just not been good in this series. You have to give the Lakers credit. Hold on. You talk about how great Aunt was at. the day. Well, that was then. This is now. What are you talking about it was not good in game one? I didn't say that. Oh, wait. I thought aunt was, I thought we did talk about, I thought aunt was great in game one. He was eight of, he was eight of 22. He was, he was fine. We talked about how disciplined he played and he didn't force anything and he moved the ball and played

really well. Well, okay, well, technically he had 25 points in this game, but there's no way if you watched it. You thought he played a good game. No, none of the wolves played, none of the wolves played well. And by the way, we talked about A& had nine assists last game and when he's facilitating the wolves tend to win. Guess how many assists he had tonight? I don't have to guess nine based off saying that. No, zero. Oh, I didn't know. I thought he didn't have any.

But the way you said that, I thought you might have been making a joke that he had a bunch. I mean, look, the wolves, they almost didn't have nine as a team. Yeah, I mean, the wolves came out from the beginning and looked like a team that was pretty content to be one, one in the series after two. the Lakers as the home team down 01 in the series, predictably came out like an absolute house of fire, we're flying around on defense, we're being really physical. Minnesota was not ready for it.

And then as the game went along, the Lakers were lucky they had a big lead because their offense completely short-circuited. Luca was trying to put Rudy in a highlight for the entire final three quarters of the game, and it kept messing up their offense. And, I mean, Minnesota, every time they had a chance to get the game closed,

did something boneheaded and let the Lakers get the lead back up to 15 or 16. They had a series of possessions in the fourth quarter when it was an 11-point game or maybe even a nine-point game. And I guess the Lakers get credit because they were standing in the way. They had some. It was a yakity sax mean at both end. The Lakers had a two-on-one. Austin Rees tried to throw an alley-up to LeBron to the moon.

And then they didn't even score. And then they came back down to turn the ball over. I mean, it was just like it was crazy how bad it was. LeBron, can you imagine what was what through LeBron's head? It was a two-on-one break, and Austin Reeves threw a lob 13 feet in the air. Can you imagine what one? Or two might be underselling it. It felt like it was 23 feet in the air.

Can you imagine what through LeBron's head? Like, what do you think? Who do you think I am? I forgot when it was, but he threw him one of those not too long ago. And LeBron caught it and threw it down and basically said, dude. Some long lines of that took like two weeks off my career. Well, LeBron looked old in the fourth quarter this game, but he still did make some good defensive plays.

But I don't know, it's hard to even analyze. I think the better thing is to just sort of forget this and look forward. I would just say, you know, Mike Conley, who has looked old at various times this season, was horrendous in this game. He did have some assists for a team. Actually, he only had one assist. My God. He was.

I mean, they were barely, they were barely. getting shots off for the first quarter and a half of the game. I think it's the worst game I've ever seen Mike Conley play. It was bad. Their bench, Dante Devencenzhenzo, Nasreed, and Nikiel Alexander Walker, three of the guys who were big factors in their winning game one were all really poor. Devinchenzo and Nasried got in a foul trouble immediately in the game. They just were totally taken out of their flow.

I don't know. Here's what I would say. Going to Minnesota, you would have to assume that Ant Edwards is going to play a more efficient game. He is 18 of 44 so far shooting in this series. He is shooting, I think, under 30% on threes. Or maybe he's just right at 30%. We know that's not who he is.

And so I would say that Aunt Edwards is, you would have to expect going back home, the Aunt Edwards is going to summon something in what is now going to be an extremely pivotal game three. And the others for the wolves are probably going to play better too, right? Like, they, their whole team was bad today. I mean, look, I came away from this. Luke has been awesome, the first two games.

That has been a really good thing for the Lakers. Like you said, LeBron still does not look great for a guy who had a bunch of time off. And there were two days off between these two games. And then there's two days off until game three. And then every other game after that is every other day. I mean, I thought coming into the series, the Lakers absolutely had to be up to one after three. Because you get into the every other day portion of the series,

that favors Minnesota, the younger, deeper team. So obviously they had to win today to get it even up after going down 01. I think it's a must win on Friday, too, with the two days off. Like, if they get that, I think they're going to feel pretty good about getting back home court and also being up going into the every other day. If they're down to 1 and they got to win three out of four playing essentially five games and eight days, nine days, that's going to be a tough pill for them to swallow. in the situation they're going to be in.

Well, Luca did try to go after, especially in the second half. As you mentioned, Bontemps, he tried to go after Rudy Gaubert a lot. Jackson gave us some stats here from our sports and information group. Gobert held the Lakers to five of 17 shooting as the primary defender tonight.

So they didn't get far on that one. And Luca, it looked like, I mean, I wasn't able to watch most of the game, just to be clear, but watched the fourth quarter, he looked tired. It looked like he wore himself out. Well, Luca was, Indo is, the officiating on this game was not something for,

the officiating was perfect for the way this game was played. It was dreadful. It was just, it was just, it was dreadful. But I say it was perfect. I mean, it matched.

I know. I know. I was, I was just emphasizing that for people that didn't know. There was like 11 reviews. And Luca was, it's actually a minor miracle. Luca did not get a technical foul in this game.

Who is the rough crew? I got to know. James Capers, Justin Van Dine and Ben Taylor. Ben, Oh, might be all sub six footers. I know Capers claimed six foot on the nose. I don't believe.

James Capers was not happy when you brought up when he was on our pod. What's that telling you? That means he ain't really six feet. Did you see this, Bozo the other day tweeted at the communications, the NBA PR account when they tweeted out the refs? And he said, is there a height chart with this? Like, what are we doing? Enough. He has high listings.

He has staked this position. I think everybody would be best to just forget this game. But Luca, and Luca, by the way, I'm sure they won't talk about it on first take at all. You're on first take tomorrow? Yeah, I just sent in my notes on the game. They were rage notes. You know, JJ's rage timeout,

the notes that I just said to the producers right before we started, they were rage notes. A bunch of all caps. I was like, I hated this game. No, Luca did get tripped at one point by Jaden McDaniels. Like there was a, there was a basket made and Jaden McDaniels pretty clearly like clamped Luca's feet. And Luca hit the ground like a ton of bricks. And I'm actually kind of relieved he didn't get hurt because he, I can't tell if he was flop if he flopped to accent.

He definitely was flopping. He didn't get taken. He fell down like he got taken down. He felt somebody put his legs around his feet and said, I'm going to fall down. And then he jumped up and sprinted over to Justin Van Dyne. and for some reason was not teed up for screaming at them for a minute. It was brutal. All right.

Anyway, the Lakers won because they had Luca. That's my takeaway. No, you know why the Lakers won? Because defense wins championships. They held them 85, baby. How about that Lakers defense? They once again. Key part, the Lakers juggernaut defense in this game.

Once again, that statement is proven correct. The Minnesota only shot 38 percent, five of 25 on threes. geez, they only had 14 assists as a team. I will say Julius Randall played pretty well. He had 27 points. He had six assists. He, I guess, was their best player, but he also had a bunch of possessions where he was just that bull in the China shop just pounding.

He was their best player, but he only played a C plus game. I couldn't say it any better than that. So I don't know. I kind of feel like that's all I want to say about this. The Lakers are still alive. but they're going to have to play a lot better. And Bontemps, you said this before we came on air. If you were the Thunder and you were watching the Clippers Nugget series,

which we'll talk about later, and you were watching the Lakers Wolf series, you'd be like, wait a minute, how do we win 68 games and we're on the side of the bracket with those two teams, not the Lakers and Wolves? They'll be playing the West Finals and the West Semifinals. That's what I will say. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

Okay. I want to talk about what went on on Tuesday night in Indianapolis. Pacers won to go up 2-0 in the series. They have been clearly the better team. They shot the ball extremely well from long range in this game. They had six different guys score and double figures. Pascal Seaccombe is just a real handful for the Bucks. He has dominated them throughout the season.

He had another excellent game with 24 and 11. And you guys know how I feel the Pacers about the Pacers. I feel they're a dangerous team who have been playing very well under the radar for the last six weeks. And they continue to build that momentum in this game. And they're in great shape in that series. But I just want to speak real quick about what's going on with the Bucks. Let me tell you what Janus Patenticumpo has done so far in this series. in game one

he went 14 of 23 from the field with 12 rebounds only had one assists at a steel in two blocks 36 points 12 rebounds in game two on Tuesday night he goes 14 to 20

for 34 points 18 rebounds seven assists he is having a brilliant series and his team is down 02 it hasn't been close in either game Yeah, this one, they got it close down the stretch, but they had to come back to get it close.

This one is sort of competitive with Bobby Portis having the game of his life. Like, they are not. But they were never going to win this game. No, they were not on the same level as the Pacers. It's really not close. They don't have the ability to guard the Pacers. It's like I talked about it going into the series. They can't guard the Pacers and they can't keep up with the Pacers on offense.

that's a really bad combination, to put it mildly, if you're trying to win four out of seven. And look, the Pacers can't stop Janus. He's been an absolute wrecking ball, one-man wrecking ball through the first two games. But they're drawn dead otherwise. Brooke Lopez is our third best player. They keep taking him off the court. Kyle Kuzma hit a couple shots in the third quarter. He had another rough game.

Doc closed with him. I'm not really sure why. Dame played 37 minutes, sort of remarked. after more than sort of remarkably after not playing for six weeks. But he hit one shot down the stretch. I think his legs clearly caught up to him in the second half, understandably. His lack of impact was not surprising.

No. I mean, he gave him more than I expected in minutes and production. Like he had 14 points. He had some assists. He moved the ball. He hit a couple shots late. Like he, you couldn't have asked for more than that for him.

I agree. But yeah. Portis, by the way, 11 of 19, six of 11 from 3, 12 rebounds, 28 points. Yeah. was a monster. But look, in the final few minutes of the game, when the Bucks got back into it,

the Pacers had five wide open threes in a row and missed four of them. Like, it's the only reason the game even got remotely close at the end. Like, the Bucks just have not shown any ability to guard them. And I mean, look, they shot 50% from the field and 40% from three in this game. And it was a double digit game, the whole game. Yeah. Okay. It actually got down to two, 115, 113. Was that, that was when Dame, that was when Dame hit the three, I believe, from the top of the two. No, yes, the 30, 30 footer that he hit. Yeah, he had a bomb from the top of the key and got it down to two.

Let me walk that back. I guess in that moment, they had a shot, but it still didn't feel like it, though. Seacum came back and hit a three to put a, you know. And here's the deal, dude. Like, they had to rally to have a chance when Janus is putting up a crazy efficient 34, 18, and 7. And when Portis is putting up. 28 on efficient shooting off the bench.

And like it looks like the bucks are about to get bounced in the first round again, this time with a healthy Janus. And Janus has been just awesome this season. He's clearly understood that they're challenged and he has cut the BS out of his game and cut the fat out of his game and tried doing everything he can to carry this team. And they're just not good enough. And what's and what is he supposed to do? do. Like this is the, this is the, the, the elephant in the room in the league right now.

They're all, this team is losing tens of millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars. They have no, they're out all their draft picks. They, Lopez and Portis are free agents. I think dames up for an extension. I, I don't know. I don't know what you do about that. You don't extend them. I agree. You know, fine. I, I, you know, I don't. There to be a tough spot. What are we talking about here? They won a title, so that's nice. But like, it's a bleak future. And like, what's Yon is supposed to do this summer?

Like, he's seen this thing through. And he has a decision to make. Does he want to be a one franchise guy? Or does he want to contend for championships while he's still in his prime? You know? And whatever he chooses, it's his choice. Like, there's not a wrong answer. I wouldn't fault the guy either way.

But that's the decision. He also just wanted his brother's podcast. It's something along the lines of I'm trying to find the quote, but he essentially said, I need to win another title or I feel like my career won't be complete if I don't win another title. I'm trying to find this. That's a pretty strong hint. That's pretty strong, but he has said things like in that realm before.

Sure. He hasn't broken new ground there, but it's fresh. But he, in the times that he said that before, the bucks were able to make moves. to, you know, Drew Holiday, boom. He signs the extension right after that. They win a title. You know, then he's getting, you know, itchy again, kind of push, push, push. They trade for Dane. He signs the extension. Now, the Dame thing obviously hasn't paid the dividends that the Bucks hoped it would, frankly that I thought it would. I was wrong on that. But it's like, there's not, I don't think the Bucks have the ability to make that big splash kind of move again. If he's itching, I don't think they

have the assets to make the kind of move that would five more pages. We don't have to say we think they don't. I also don't know if Yonis actually said that recently on the podcast. So Stet on that. But look, the bucks are who they are roster-wise. That much is clear. And what they are roster-wise is a team that's not one of the four best teams in the East. And they don't look that close to the third or fourth best team in the East.

They're not a top 10 team in the league. Yeah. No, I mean, when you put it like, I'm trying to think about that. And I would be like, yeah, I think that's, I mean, they're not one of the four best scenes in the east. And the east ain't nearly as good as the West. So, you know, whatever, wherever they're at, they're not close to being at the level that you expect them to be. They're not getting, I don't see how they possibly get better. You know, they're going to, they're going to have to, they'd have, I'm not sure even if they wanted to, they could bring this.

Even if this team was a championship team, I don't think, I don't think it could bring this team back. Well, look, here's the other thing, right? They've been an expensive team for a long time. And if you lose in the first round for a third straight year, are you going to be expected to pay the tax? I would assume no. Brooke Lopez is a free agent this summer. It's an expensive team. Like if you're going to try to be under the tax and bring this group back, that's going to be hard to do.

It's not impossible, but it's hard. So, you know, you're already looking at trying to dance that. I mean, let's just be honest. Like you would be in the second apron because of Janus. you can't be a second apron team with this with this roster you just can't it's not responsible and so if you're going to get out of the second apron you're going to you're going to lose a key piece so you're just inherently going to get farther away like this is just yeah i mean they're down to arithmetic right now well it's not even about being in the second apron so like they're

not going to be that high but it's about being in the tax at all and again like they i mean this ownership group in a small market over the past several years i spent a ton of tax money Like they have gone for it. They are, I would, no one has told me this, but I would educatedly guess that they have in the last, over the last three years, they've lost over $100 million. Yeah. I mean, I don't know the numbers, but they've spent a ton. They've, they've maxed out.

They've traded stuff away. They went, they've done what you could hope to do if you're a fan trying to compete. But they're now at the point where you got to start paying the bills. And yeah, like, it's. just hard to see, like you said, Bigman, it's hard to see what the move is that gets them from where they are right now to good enough to beat Indiana, let alone good enough to beat Boston. When they don't have any control of their first round pick until 2031. Right. I don't think they even got a second round pick until 2031. They have one, I think, of each over the next seven years.

Oh my God. I mean, listen, they've burned everything they have to try to build another container or another championship team around Yannis and they're not close right now. Yeah, and when they started the contention run, Janus was like 23 and now he's 30 and they were in it for seven years and probably four of those years they had teams that were good enough to win the title

and they won one, which is a hell of a lot better than winning none. Hey, Jackson actually did some producing and he found that quote, Yannis on his brother's pod. Me not having a second championship, I look back in my career and everybody can say, oh, incredible career, active Hall of Fame,

or first ballot, whatever. But me, my personal goal, if I'm not able to help my team win a second ring, I'm letting down myself. I really want to win a second one. Yeah, well, if you want to win a second one, it's hard to see the path to doing it in Milwaukee. In the last couple of years,

you could point to injuries. And yes, the Dane thing was unfortunate, but Dame is now back, and Dame isn't solving the defense problems that they have. have. And, you know, it's just, I don't think, I don't think Dame at this point is giving them more than he's given them. Maybe I could be wrong. Right. It's just, it's hard to, it's hard to see this team being better than what it is, which has been a great run, like you said, but they're going to have some real decisions to make this summer, both A and Janus. So he has, he has two years left on his contract and then a player option. Now, let me just say, I am on the record several times is not thinking that the Kevin Duran.

Grant market is going to be what the sons think it is. Not that there's not going to be teams who want him. I think there's going to be a lot of teams who want him. I just think that the alignment that you're going to need of a team that has a package that the sons are going to want, a team where Durant is going to want to play. And go on. No, and a team that's going to be willing to give Kevin Durant a ton of money. I was saying and because they knew what you were going to say next.

So those. So those. Although I wouldn't be certain it's got to be the full-blown max. Nonetheless, we'll see. You know, my big thing on Durant is. A ton of money for a 37-year-old guy who misses a lot of time with injuries. It's hard to do. My thing on Durant is it's possible this ends up being a team renting him.

I'm not saying that's what's likely. I'm saying that that's possible. Okay. And we'll talk about Durant ad nauseum for months. Janus, on the other hand, I think you can get a gigantic hall for. I mean, he's 30, so he's got plenty of prime. 30. This is a, this is a really bold take, McBand.

You can get a haul for a top five player in the world who is. Well, there are many people who are maybe casual observers of the NBA who would think that Durant and Janus would be comparable in the trades. And I would say no. Sure. I would say, and it would actually, it might even hurt. If Janus comes to market, it might even hurt the Sons. Because teams you might be...

It unquestionably hurts their leverage. There's no question about that. Because he's not the best player available. And so if whatever the best package that's traded is, it's going to be for Janus. If Janus, again, we're getting a little bit ahead. But I realize we're getting ahead, but I don't know what, you know, this is what people in the league are talking about as they're watching this series.

Yeah, for sure. And the other thing I'll say is, From talking to people in and around Milwaukee, Janus has given no indication throughout this entire season that he is not 100% focused on maximizing what the bucks have. This is people in the league looking at the lay of the land, not anything that Janus has said to anybody. Well, and like you said, like what do we say all the time?

Actions over words, right? Yonis' actions are, he's been flat out bawling for months and dragging these guys along, carried him down the stretch without dame. Like he's been incredible all season. All right. So look, to be continued, the bucks get to go home. They can look at you in the eye and say,

the Pacers did what they were supposed to, won the two home games. But I have talked about the teams in the West, not being adequately properly seated because their quality and their talent doesn't match their seed. In this case, Milwaukee's not playing like a five seed right now. Maybe they'll look different next week, or later this week, I guess.

We're in a new week. We'll see. Guys, as disappointed as I was in the display at the end of Lakers, Minnesota, I was wide awake on Monday night watching the end of the Clippers and the Nuggets. Streetlight versus Spotlight, baby. Those streetlights look good right now. Let me tell you something. Number two for the Clippers, Kawhi Leonard.

This is what the dreams were made. of back in 2019. He is moving well. He is springy. I mean, dude, 39 points and only missed four shots from the floor as a wing player. Are you kidding me? Incredible. And like, there were times where Aaron Gordon had really good position and good contests.

And Kauai's like, I'm getting to that spot right there. And I'm rising up above you. And the ball, you know, Kobe, when Kobe used to shoot the ball, the ball went in in the net. He had this certain way that the ball was sort of hit the back of the net. I almost think you could just show me the net and I could see the ball go through and that was like a Kobe shot. Because Kauai has the ability to elevate and get his arms way up there, he shoots at this angle and like you almost, when the ball goes through the net and Kauai is feeling good, there's like this special Kauai angle that it goes through the net in. That's what was happening.

Yeah, it goes in sideways. Yes, because he like shoots almost line drives. But it's so calibrated, which is probably why when he's not at his best, you know, you really notice it. But he is at his best right now. And the defensive end, I think the numbers from SIG said that the nuggets were two of 12 when he was a primary defender.

Well, like between him and Zubach and Chris Dunn. Also, Derek Jones, like throw a lazy pass to Derek Jones' side of the floor and see what happens. Yep. I mean,

the Clippers are playing fantastic ball. I'll tell you this. if you're a franchise that wants to build around defense, Derek Jones is a good guy to have on your roster. He doesn't want to keep them. I mean, McMahon is truly on an elite run right now. He is a good defensive player.

He's a dog. He's a dog with a bone in his mouth, and it's going to be there for a long time. I don't think he'll be that long. I don't think he'll be that long, buddy. That bone has four letters on, and it starts with N. Okay.

The Nuggets have a couple of problems. One problem is that Kauai looks like it's 2019. Another problem is that Aaron Gordon, I'm sorry, that Michael Porter, who is an extremely important player for them because he's a variance player. And when he shoots his hits his threes, it really elevates their offense because they're a bad three-point shooting team. Also, they're a thin team. And so anybody who is affected by any sort of injury in their top five, it's a red light,

he sprained his shoulder. Had to come out of the game when the game was on the line. It got landed on late in the game and was immediately grabbing at his arm. And by the way, he announced he said, I sprained my shoulder. So that's not good. I'm not an orthopedist, but that's not good. And they're going to the, and they're going to L.A. now. And Yokic has been fine, like his standards, but he was not great in this in-game, too.

Like, he put up good numbers, but he had turned. turnovers, he missed some shots. Well, Zubach played incredibly well defensively. I mean, Yokic is always going to put up huge numbers, but I mean, he was as uncomfortable as he's going to look going up against him. So, I mean, I have huge respect for the Nuggets. Here's the thing. It's just get the bottom line.

And Westbrook played a lot fewer minutes in game two than he did in game one. If you have Russell Westbrook, whatever you are on the Russell Westbrook spectrum of love hate. You want to have the option of Russell Westbrook. You don't want to have to play Russell Westbrook. If you have to play Russell Westbrook, you're going to have trouble. I don't care what anybody says. They're cooked. They're cooked if they have to play. Here's the problem. There's no such thing as the option of Russell Westbrook, because if he's not playing, you're going to well, but Brian's point is. There's a presence there that's not necessarily positive. Sure, but Brian's point is, in game two, we played 23 minutes. If Michael Porter,

is not available. He's playing 40. And if he's playing 40, the bad is going to outweigh the good and you're going to lose. Especially in a series like this, which is a at minimum conference semifinal series. This is not a first round series. Oh my God. This is already...

I've seen some conference finals that don't have me as excited as this. Yeah, I mean, this is a Titanic showdown. And a guy like Russ, yes, he made the big plays at the end of the game in game one and helped them pull it out. But again, to go back to the tweet from the other day. It's the Mario Kart item box, and the item box is going to come up

with a lot more banana peels than stars if you have them out there for 40 minutes. If the Clippers thought Russell Westbrook was a guy you wanted on a contending team, they wouldn't have traded them after he opted into his contract. There you go. Russell Westbrook has been traded to the jazz twice and cut by the jazz twice in three years. I mean, that's the answer to a trivia question. So look, Yokic has the ability to do some special things. Hardin has the ability. I was, I was doing some research on James Harden, and I came across the story that somebody wrote a couple years ago that was titled, the 15 worst playoff games of James Hardin's career. It was like a...

It's like we talked about the other day, though. The Nuggets don't really have anybody to guard him. There's not a good matchup for him in this series. He wasn't as good in game two, but he had another good game in game two. Right. But I'm just saying a Harden stinker is on the table just because it happens. I will point something else out. This is James Harden's 16th season.

It's the 16th time he's been the playoffs. Yep. You know, he's at a lot of good playoff games too. But, you know, he clearly understood that Kauai was cooking, and he was just feeding the ball, feeding the ball, feed. It was really just isolation basketball. They were just giving him the ball. And he has this ability to take two steps and get open.

Like it's- Once again, though, two. 50 to 32 on the boards. 15 offensive rebounds for Denver, that is going to be something to really monitor. Denver had 20 turnovers too. Like they've got to, they've got to squeeze down that possession game. Well, and Joker had seven.

That's, I don't think that's going to happen again. Joker has that many. Like late in the game, there was that weird, like, panic shot where the shot clock wasn't even ticking down. Like, it was just, there's some strength. Yeah, weird game.

Missed a couple of three throws on, on one trip. And by the way, Porter had 15 and 15 in this game. It had six offensive rebounds. Like, he's not a perfect player. He's probably making more than he should be in terms of trying to have an efficient cap sheet. But he's still a good player who is proven to have big moments for Denver.

And if he's not able to go, like you said, Brian, this is already the worst three-point shooting team in the league. You take him out of the lineup. Man, like, you're really going to be struggling to score. It is his left shoulder. So I think it's his left shoulder. So, you know, at least not just not a shooting shoulder, but. Right.

But still. It's not great. All right. Thursday night, game three. Be there. Okay. In New York. Now I got to watch freaking OKC in Memphis.

Yeah. Well, you're going to be done after four. And I'm going to encourage our bosses. Send McMahon. Send McMahon in that series. I didn't know. I'm in Denver. Stap.

Uh-uh. I've already. I've publicly promised Servais isn't snuggling in the IT department. She's excited about that. She listened and she got, you know, just a little titillated there. Oh my God, it's getting late. More hoop collective podcast after this.

All right. In New York, Bontems. Yeah. Jalen Brunson has taken 27 shots in both games one in game two. In game two, Carl Towns, who was on my all-MBA team, mine too. Took 11 shots in a game where the, where they, Nick scored 94 points. O'G.

Ninobe, who just had the best offensive season of his career and was averaging, I believe, 16 or 17 shots when Jalen was out. He's not out anymore. I get it, but he took 10 shots. The Nick's entire offense in the second half of that game felt like give the ball to Jalen and have him try to draw a foul. However, he would do that. And Kate Cunningham ain't afraid of the moment.

Oh, no. He ain't looking to draw fouls. He's looking for blood. Or he dishes it out. So I'm just going to say, while I still think the Knicks are okay and they can win this series, they can not play the way they played in game one and two. Frankly, let's be honest. No, no.

Listen, Tibbs blamed the riffs. Tibs blame the refs. Listen, they should be down 02 in the series. They're lucky it's 1-1. They almost got away with it and we're up too well. But watching this game two in particular, I went back and watched the game again afterward because I wanted to really look at it. And every shot the Knicks took the whole game was hard.

Like they just don't get easy shots ever. And I have to admit, watching the game and seeing J.B. Bickerstaff standing on the other sideline, maybe think a lot about Cavs Corner and about the way the calves look last year and the way the calves looked this year. And I'm just saying it's something to think about that, the way Tom has always had his teams operate offensively, which is basically have a guy like Jaylin with the ball, and he's going to orchestrate and set things up.

What? Why making faces like that? Go on. Just finish your thought. Then I'm going to rip you. Okay. I mean, he's typically always had a lot of times a smaller guard.

And he's had a lot of success with smaller guards, creating pretty efficient offense over time. John Lucas, the third. Shout out. Nate Robinson, won a playoffs series against the Nets with Nate Robinson. I mean, Tim's. DJ Augustine put up numbers for Tibbs.

Yes. I mean, Tibbs is, I'm not, Tibbs knows how to win basketball games. But you watch this game in the second half and in particular, but even throughout the whole game, the Knicks shouldn't be having this much trouble getting clean looks against this Pistons team. Like,

this isn't the Celtics. This isn't the thunder defense. I mean, right. Like, this is a good team. J.B. Bickerstaff's a good defensive coach. But they were in cement the whole game. And it was like that in game one, too, at least in game one, you could say that the Pistons shot the lights out in the first three quarters.

And Tobias Harris wasn't going to score 22 points in a half and they weren't going to go 60% from three. In that game two, the Pistons didn't play well. The Pistons couldn't hit a shot. And they still won the game. So I got a lot of concerns about where the Knicks are at. I did not think the series would be that competitive. I'm frankly shocked with how the first two games have gone. And the offensive stuff is very problematic.

And I think it's got to change in a hurry. And I did not think it was the best look for Tom to come in after the game and start yelling about the free throw disparity. Oh, my God. That was not the reason that lost the game. All the headlines were his rant. But that was just, I mean, I'm not saying he didn't have a point or two. But it was just bad look to complain about officiating when Brunson is just.

foul hunting everywhere. Crime, hardened foul hunting. You know, it's a bad look. It's a bad look to take a little swipe at just business, Bickerstaff, just blindsided Bickerstaff now.

The man just broke. How long was that Pistons playoff wind drought? Like 15 years or something like that? 2008, I think. Who's taking a swipe at him? You did. You said the offense stunk last year and seeing J.B.

reminded you of that. Do the cat, have the calves not leveled up multiple times on offense this year? Okay. The Cavs went from like 15th to first without changing personnel. I mean, J.B is a very good coach. He's done a great job this year. He's done a great job.

I know. And then Ty Jerome hadn't elevated to God's status. Oh, Ty Jerome, baby. Hey, remember going in this series? I said, are we sure Jalen Brunson is the best player in the series? He hasn't been so far. And now, you know, you know, listen, I'm a Brunson guy, but I'm just saying, Kate Cunningham has been the best player.

clearly so far to the series, that has to change if the Knicks are going to avoid an upset. I mean, Cade was not good in game one. I mean, he was great in game two. He was great in game two, but he did not have a good game one. But look, the Pistons, to again, talk about J.B. A couple years ago, when the Cavs showed up, right? They came to the garden, young and experienced team coming to the garden. They were completely overwhelmed and looked it.

the Pistons have not been overwhelmed at all. And other than that brief stretch in the fourth quarter of game one, they have more than acquitted themselves in a hostile road environment and against a team that's won a bunch of playoff games. And I've been super impressed with the way they handle things, especially with Isaiah Stewart, a really good defensive big, not even playing in game two because of an e-issue. I thought that was going to be a huge problem for the Pistons that didn't matter at all.

Okay, let me ask this. Kat getting barely any shots in the second half obviously is a problem. It's also something that's happened with Kat repeatedly over the course of his playoff career, going all the way back to his first series when I thought him and Tibbs were going to passive-aggressively murder each other. Who do we blame for Kat just being a complete non-factor in the second half, just not even a non-like completely uninvolved? everybody. It's everybody's fault. This is the same thing as it's Brunson's fault too. It's Brunson's fault too.

Yes, it's the same thing as Celtic Sixers game six. The final six minutes of that game in 2022, when Joel I think either had one shot or one touch in the final six minutes and they blew that series at home, right? After that game, I said it was Joel's fault, James Harden's fault and Doc's fault. Because the combination of those guys didn't get Joel to ball, right? This is the same thing.

Jalen was pounding the ball way too much. every time McHale Bridges touched the ball in the second half, it was out of his hand in a shot in 0.3 seconds. There was no attempt to pass the ball. And then 0.2 of that was a hitch going up to the least. Right. But there is no thought of passing, right? The Knicks in general are not a very good passing team.

They're not a natural ball movement team to begin with. Jalen is not a like Steve Nash kind of point card or Tyrese Hallibor kind of point card. Kat can make really good passes. he's not an instinctual passer. OG and Mikhail are not really. Josh Hart moves the ball well, but again, it's not, like, they just don't, they're not really going to be a good ball movement team in general, but there was way too much ISO ball. There was way too much foul hunting. Kat was not aggressive enough. They didn't try to, they didn't try to force him the ball with Tobias Harris on him. Like, it was a group effort that had him with 12 shots. But ultimately, it's just too, it was too much. And it was too much just isolation ramming your heads into the wall over and over again. And this team has too much talent to just not be getting decent open looks on offense. Look, the Pistons won a game on the road, first playoff game in decades.

And Malik Beasley and Tim Hardaway, Jr. went one of 14 on threes. Wow. They were six for 27 as a team and won the game. Now, Dennis Schroeder had one of his Schrooter things where he does crazy stuff every now and then. But also Brunson had a, and he admitted this without even being asked about it. Brunson had a bad defense bust that let Schroeder walk into a big time clutch three. Yep. Game three, Thursday night, Little Caesar's Arena.

Has LCA ever hosted a playoff game? Yes. I think the Blake year was, I thought that was Little Cesar. Jesus was later. But yeah, the first year they were there hasn't been many. Yeah, 2018-19. They played games there. All right.

Well, played the bucks in the first round. Guys, we've been focused on playoff basketball. We haven't talked about some of the transactions. And I'm not talking about players. I'm not talking about coaches. The guys who do the transactions, we've had an unusually high turnover in front office firings in the last seven to 10 days. Most recently, a relatively surprising move for the Atlanta Hawks to fire.

General manager Landry Fields after less than three years on the job. You know, the thing about it was, the previous regime did the Dejante Murray trade. Was it less than, was it only two years? Anyway, the previous regime did the Dejante Murray trade, which was a disaster trade. And basically, Travis Schlank, who was the GM at the time, essentially held a put out a press release. I didn't do this trade. It was done by ownership. And he exits stage right.

Landry Fields comes in and has been trying to clean up that situation, including trading to Jante Murray. A good trade. Yes, very good as it turned out. Getting off some long-term money by trading away DeAndre Hunter, although Hunter has been great in Cleveland, you know, developing some young guys. And this felt like sort of the middle of a project. Obviously, the Hawks aren't great.

they didn't make the playoffs. It felt like the middle of a project and he gets fired. Yeah, and there were obviously rumblings about that for the last couple months or whatever, but not really loud. Like maybe. I, you know, I didn't think, I thought he was, I thought he had a year left at least. And so I was, I was kind of surprised. It's interesting because they do have a nice, they put together a nice young core.

Well, look, the big thing with Atlanta, not to jump on you, sorry. Go ahead. Trey Young is extension eligible. He's also trade eligible. So he's got, forget even, yeah, forget the extension. He's got one guaranteed year left on his contract. And then he's got a player option. And if you go to the release that the Hawks put out,

which by the way included Ansi Sala getting promoted to general manager in the interim, or not in the interim, he's promoted to general manager. and they've said they're going to look for a president of basketball operations. Ansi Sala is one of the bright young executives in the league. It is not surprising he became a general manager. He came over to the Hawks from the Warriors where he had an excellent reputation. And he was sort of blocked there. The Warriors have sort of, you know, they have a good front office.

And he probably, if he was another team, might have gone up further. But anyway. Yeah, he showed up this time last year. And a lot of smart things have gone on over the last year. So Anci Sala getting the job. But he didn't really get the job. He was named general manager. and then Tony Ressler said in the press release that I, well, the Hawk said it's essentially

Tony Ressor, the owner. He said he's going to hire somebody over the top of him, which is unusual. If you name a guy general manager and then say that you're going to hire a boss over him who didn't hire him, it doesn't make a lot of sense. But either way, they got to figure out something to do with Trey. Well, yes. And part of the statement from Tony Ressler in here said, as we enter this pivotal off season, we have several complex decisions ahead of us and we are committed to providing the

human of financial resources to ensure that we navigate these decisions with a high level of precision and foresight. Forget the second part of that. It's we have several complex decisions ahead of us. The main complex decision is what do you do with Trey Young, which is a fascinating question that gets to sort of the heart of team building in the new collective bargaining agreement era and how much do you pay and how long do you pay a guy like Trey Young, who is a very, very good player, but also has pronounced flaws that are going to limit the ceiling of your team. Okay.

So that's the Hawks. More to come on that later. Okay. Also, Tuesday, Joe Dumars, Hall of Famer, introduced as the new president in New Orleans. Non-committal was what I would say about his comments on Zion Williamson and Willie Green. I mean, Willie Green is going to remain the coach. Let's set Willie Green aside. Okay.

The question there is the same question we just talked about with Atlanta. what's going to happen with Zion Williamson? And as you said, the answer from Joe Dumars was not, we're all in on Zion Williamson. It wasn't, we're trading him, but it wasn't, we're all in on him, which says all you need to know, I think, about the situation. You're reading between the lines. They're at least going to explore the market. Well, that's my point. He didn't say, he didn't say Zion's our guy.

He didn't say he's not, but he didn't say he is. I think you might be surprised by the market for Zion in a positive way. First off, let me say with the quote, my favorite quote of the day from Joe Dumars, because Joe Dumars has just come from the NBA League office where he was director of operations, but he was the discipline czar. We should talk about that for a minute too, but do this first. Quote, at the league office, I've had to talk to Zion a few times. Well, that is certainly true.

Well, that's probably not going to pump up his trade value. But when Zion got on the floor this year, he did his part. And then, you know, they were tanking down the stretch. So, like, the fact he didn't play down the stretch, I don't think deflates his trade value anymore. Well, it'll be interesting to see what his value is. But the league office part of this is interesting because Joe Dumars, as you said, was VP of Bass Operations for the league and was involved. in all sorts of like any of the stuff you heard about the all-star game the playing tournament all the kind of the competition committee stuff we talk about certainly the discipline stuff he's involved

in all that kind of stuff it took him a while to hire jo do marst the last time it will be interesting to see who they replace him with and him leaving at the start of the playoffs puts the NBA league office in a bit of an interesting spot now they've got byron sprue well they've got evan wash they've got Tim Cook. They've got a bunch of people who are going to be involved in picking up the various parts of Joe's job while he's not there. But it will be interesting to see what that looks like because people don't think about that job necessarily when they think about important roles within the league. But that job is a very important job in terms of a lot of stuff that happens within the league. And Joe Dumar's leaving it, creates a vacuum. They'll be interesting to see how

it's filled. In terms of what happens between the four lines, the person in that job is more important than Adam Silver. So who's responsible for the aunt the aunt fine levy? That was Joe's last thing. Right as he closed his office,

he found by the way, as a quick as a quick aside. And Edwards got fined for referencing his manhood to a fan in L.A. on after game one.

But that wasn't my favorite part of the, of the situation. Your favorite part, set to speak, go on. Yeah, clearly. It was that Aunt started that defending Rudy Gobert.

Some guy was trash-talking Rudy Gobert, which happens quite often, even by NBA players. And Aunt was saying, this guy's made $200 million. He's got, he's a $200 million player. And Rudy steps in and says,

no, no. And he uses the, European three. He's like, no, no, 300 million. Excuse me, excuse me, Aunt, not 200 million, 300 million. Just an all-time line. And Aunt, and Ann's like, I'm sorry, you're correct. 300 million, sir. Yeah, I don't know who, I don't know who issued that fine, but Ann has been fine seven times this year. I will say one more thing before I move on from Dumars. Gail Benson, the owner of the New Orleans Pelicans, had this quote. And maybe it's cursory, maybe it doesn't mean anything. Maybe it's something

you say at a press conference for a president, but I think I should mention it. Quote, he has my full support to make any decision he deems necessary. So he had good things to say about Willie Green, but didn't announce he was giving him a five-year contract. Did not announce he was giving him a five-year contract. Offense to Willie Green. That's not the relevant thing.

The relevant thing is what's going to happen was Zion Williamson. And like you said, McMahon, what was clear out of today, is that the pelicans are not all in on Zion Williamson. So take that as you will. And honestly, I don't think Zion's all in on the Pelicans. I think Zion would not mind a change of scenery. There was a report last week or multiple reports, whatever,

that Dumars had some sort of mandate to trade Zion. And he shot that down. But he didn't say, I will not trade it. That's right. Okay, there might be some more front office stuff to talk about, but it's getting on. We should at least just mention the one other one that's happened, which is Scott Perry taking over in Sacramento since there's only one other one. Our former teammate at ESPN, Scott Perry, has been hired, re-hired by the Kings. He was with the Kings for a few months like seven or eight years ago. In both cases of Sacramento and New Orleans, there were veteran executives hired that had connections to the front office.

And if there was a search, it was not apparent and it was truncated. Well, if it was, it lasted for about two hours in each case. Right. Truncated is great word. So look, you know, Scott Perry is, and the funny thing is Scott Perry and Joe Dumars are contemporary with the pistons back when they were at their height. So I think Scott Perry was going to go with Joe Dumars to New Orleans if he didn't get the sack job. so everything from 2008 is new again. The Pistons are winning playoff games

and Joe Dumars and Scott Perry are back at the helm of teams. So we will judge them on their actions. Not their words. Scott Perry, well, maybe more to say Scott Perry is going to be been giving his press conference Wednesday, I think. So, okay, guys, it's just about 2 in the morning on the East Coast. Oh. It's the first week of the NBA playoffs.

I have covered one playoff game thus far. And here it is 2 a.m. and at 6 a.m., Mike Greenberg is expecting me to be on the Zoom call to get ready for get-up. So with that in mind, I would like to thank Jackson, our producer. Thank Bond Thompson McMahon. And thank you for watching Listen to Who Collective. and I am going to sleep. I'm Tim's sleeping like a baby.

I'm going to sleep in tomorrow morning. Snore right on through. Get up, no offense. Adios amigos.