Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - LeBron’s Best Free Agency Landing Spots + Reaction To Blockbuster Kawhi Trade

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim MacMahon and Bobby Marks to break down an eventful first day of NBA free agency. The guys talk about LeBron James & the Lakers deciding to part ways and what landing spots make the most sense for LeBron this season. Plus, what can the Lakers do now to build a contender for Luka Doncic in LA in the near future? Next, the guys talk about the Raptors’ blockbuster trade for Kawhi Leonard from the Clippers including if this move makes Toronto a legitimate contender in the Eastern Conference. Finally, we talk about why the Clippers are a very interesting team to follow after this move and a big change for the NBA Cup Final. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome to the HOOP Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday evening. Here, actually, it's almost Wednesday morning, but the NBA new league year is open. It's almost July out here in L.A., which is where our man front office insider, Bobby Marks, is with me. Hello, Brian. I am literally a baseball throwaway. I don't know if you got to get through the wall, but I'm in the vicinity. Yeah.

You're in the old Sports Center studio. We don't do sports center out of L.A. anymore. But there's the old studio, still there. I feel the Stan Verette and vibes coming through. Yeah, Neil Lever. Yeah, this is where we are. Absolutely. All right, joining us from Dallas, Texas is Ban McMahon.

Howdy, partners? I feel like we might need a little windy sleep update. How are you doing on that? Well, I mean, Bobby and I are both, you know, going wall to wall over wall here. I'll say this. Wendy got a break today on the show tonight because we got Richard Roald, When Richard rolled in and he had perk and well, Schump was kind of taking a back seat,

Brian had like a 45 minute break from talking during the Aps and Cs. On air. Yeah. All right. Okay. So we had a minor newsday today by NBA standards. You may have heard LeBron James has decided that he, I really think it's a mutual decision, really.

I'm calling it a conscious. uncoupling. But, you know, he has decided he is going to move on from the Lakers and the Lakers prepared to move on from him. And for the moment, it's not acrimonious. We'll see if it remains that way going forward. But there's too much going forward to pay attention to. So we'll deal with that if it gets to this point and things are moving on. And so I think the two big things that came to light were that number one, LeBron continues to want to play. Now, I was just very cautious because I hadn't heard that until today, and it was explained to me that LeBron does want to play.

And also, and again, this sounds basic, but I feel like I need to articulate it. He wants to play in a very competitive team. He wants to play meaningful basketball. And the money is not the number one importance. His basketball happiness is, you know, because, you know, he's going to be moving away. from his family on some level.

So maybe not total happiness, which is how we were referring to it earlier, but basketball happiness. So Bobby, that's code for, I'll play for less than the max and even less than a very large amount of money. I don't know yet if that means he'll play for the minimum or if he's going to want an exception,

but it brings for the first time of all the LeBron free agencies of which there's now been four significant ones. This is a fourth one. It's the first time that you haven't had to plan for cap space for one to two years leading up. and that we have a whole bunch of teams that can go after him now. And that is why this situation is both intriguing and different than the past.

Well, and I think what's intriguing, yeah, right, when teams aren't going to have to go through hoops to try to clear out room to go sign him and everything. I think what's intriguing is that he really is, although he's the best free agent out there, he's kind of not really holding up free agency because he's, we kind of know what these teams have to offer, whether it be Golden State or Cleveland, Miami might have to move a little bit money if he wants to go for $6 million there. But they're all kind of on equal playing field. Now, that doesn't mean those teams don't have to go out and upgrade their roster

or maybe try to add pieces to that to make it maybe a little bit more appealing. I think each potentially could do that. But we were talking about today, like all three make a compelling case. They're all different, right, with Curry and Dremont and Butler eventually getting back and the Cleveland situation with basically the whole team. and then Janice and Bam in Miami. And it's, you would like to say, go east young man. But man, the East has gotten better.

Like the, you know, like, and I know that the two big, and Tim will talk about the two San Antonio and OKC are the, you know, Crem de la Crem. But with Kwai in the East now, in New York, and Indiana will be better and stuff. All these other teams, the East has certainly gotten better here. Yeah, and look, Detroit's got a chance to get better. They're going to have to figure out a way to do it.

but they at least have some flexibility in a chance. I still think if it's just about maximizing a chance to win a championship, then he's going back home, right? Then I think that the Cavaliers would have the best chance. If James Harden becomes their fourth best player, that to me is their best chance. It's also the best storybook ending, if this is indeed the last year to go back for a third time,

you know, the place obviously where it all started, where he delivered the first championship in what, 50, whatever years in the city's pro sports history. That's the storybook ending. You know, Miami's intriguing that return alongside Janice and, you know, obviously, bam with the team of USA ties,

Spoe, a reunion there. You know, Wendy, I know you talked on TV today about how they bonded during the team of USA stuff. And then, look, if it's about money, you go to Golden State where they can put together the full mid-level. And it's an awfully intriguing thing to see LeBron and Steph kind of in the twilight together. It would be really weird to see the Warriors uniform, though. I ain't a lie.

Yeah, I got to say, when I did some Cleveland media today, like, you know, their radio people were, they felt a certain way about it. And I think they sort of represent a way a lot of fans felt. I mean, Shump, too. Shump did not like this. Shump did not like the idea. This is a guy who went to battle against the Warriors in three of the finals he was at. He did not like the idea of seeing LeBron in a Warriors uniform.

I'm not sure that that's going to really figure into the calculus. But I agree with you, Bobby. I think an important point to put out here is that because LeBron is probably taking an exception, even if it's the minimum exception, he can sit here and wait and watch. He's not going to slow free agency down. He's not going to slow a team's business down. And, you know, it sounds like he's going to take some meetings, and whether it's him or it's just Rich Paul taking the meetings.

And these meetings he's going to take, you know, yeah, he's going to want to hear what the team's plan is. But he doesn't need to see their practice facility. He doesn't need to, you know, necessarily hear about, you know, their plans for like their long-term plans or whatever, like the binder that Luca got last year. He wants to know potentially who's going to be on the team now this year, this minute. And that's where I think this is going to get interesting, McMahon.

For the time being, and, you know, we have, I'm afraid to say, I feel like we're going to have multiple podcasts with LeBron's free agency. I think it's going to, I hope it's fast, but I'm afraid it's going to be slow. If other teams present themselves, we can take. a look at it. But let's just focus on the three teams we're working on right now, which is Cleveland, Golden State, and Miami. You tell me if you think I'm wrong here. I feel like these teams have to do something with their roster to sweeten the pot for LeBron. First of all. They can't do it with money. They got to differentiate with themselves.

Okay. First of all, you know, there was the decision back in the day. I've got a TV idea. Two or 29, a four-week series where I figure it can hit Brooklyn in New York in one day, a four-week series where Leigh-Libon visits all 29 of the other teams in the league. Tim, I'll be divorced if that happens. But, yeah. Right. So you threw out a potential Jalen Brown to Cleveland deal for that reason, like as the, hey, take that swing, get Jaylon Brown.

Well, that'll open up LeBron's eyes. But to me, if you're giving up Evan Mobley and that deal, are you getting better if you're the cavaliers? Let's talk about that. So my point here is that if you're Cleveland, what you should consider is some sort of significant roster move to sweeten the pod for LeBron. Now, yeah, Jalen Brown is out there.

And my point is the calves could have offered Evan Mobley for Janice Seneca Kumpo. They didn't go that direction. I think largely because Janus did not have Cleveland on his list for a place to see he would extend. They could have offered Evan Mowgli for Jalen Brown yesterday, right? Like, and I think the Celtics would have significant interest there. And apparently the Cavs don't like the idea of Evan Mowgli for Janus, and they don't like the idea of Evan Mowgli for Jalen.

Otherwise, they probably would have seriously pursued that. But what if it's Evan Mobley for Jalen Brown and LeBron James? I still think it's a 25-year-old that you're hoping will be a pillar of your franchise for the next decade for a 42-year-old that would be a one-season reunion. That's not unreasonable. I'm certainly not saying that's the only way to go. But I'm saying that my feel is that just saying, boy, look how great our team is. Come on, LeBron, you're going to elevate us. I'm not sure that's going to get you what you're looking for. Well, and Bobby, I'm curious, like, what could the Warriors do? They've brought back Porzingus. You know, Draymond's going to be back and he's leaving the financial wiggle room to kind of try to

figure things out here. You know, you hope Jimmy's back midseason. Like, what else could the Warriors realistically do to kind of try to sweeten the pot here? You know, it's interesting, and I don't think they're going to move him, but, you know, the Porzingis extension came in at two years, and there's no, it's a tradable contract. Usually when you're signed an extension, you get six-month restriction, but how they structured it, he can be moved. The second year is only $5 million guaranteed in it. So it's...

Yeah, just to be clear, he can be moved now. Yeah. That's interesting. So it's very unusual. Most players, when you sign in the summer, you can't be moved till December. And sometimes you can't even be moved until January. But the dynamics of the deal, plus that they signed it in the last league year, Bobby, Chris Haps Porzhengus could be traded today. Now, Mark Spears came out and said and reported today that the wizards have let it be known

that Anthony Davis is not available at any price. Oh, for sure, buddy. And my response to that... How does two unprotected is in a swap and something else sound for you? Well, the issue is that, you know, you have to, you know, the idea was yesterday. And this is the thing, like people are like, well, on so and so, you know, you said so and so couldn't be trade. I'm like, well, on Monday, they couldn't be. On Monday, though the Warriors didn't have Chris Haps Porzingas on a $20 million contract that could be traded.

On Tuesday they do. On Monday they had to trade Jimmy Butler as the core piece for Anthony Davis. On Tuesday, they have Chris Haps Porzingus. Now, I'm not saying they're going to do that. But I'm just saying two things here. Number one, there's only one untouchable player on the Wizards roster. And that's AJ DeBanza. Let's just start right there. But I understand they're trying to build a team there. They want Anthony Davis. I'm not trying to antagonize them. Do they want them bad enough to put an extension on the table? That's Rich Paul's question. I can assure you. Okay. I'm just saying, like, do I actually think that the Cavs are going to trade for Jalen Brown?

I don't think that's going to happen. However, my point is that if you want to appeal yourself to LeBron James, you need to look for ways to do something to your roster. And the Cavs lost two players tonight. Keon Ellis signed a two-year $18 million deal with the Brooklyn Nets. And Dean Wade signed a four-year deal for $39 million, although I've seen reporting, I don't know who to give credit to for this aspect. that the last year isn't guaranteed. But they lost two players tonight. Now, I'm not saying LeBron's going to be like,

oh, my God, they lost Dean Wade. I can't go there. The Cavs have Jaylen Tyson that they're going to try to give some more playing time. And the Cavs could have probably traded Max Struz and kept those two guys, but I think they intend to keep, at least for now, I mean, everything with the Cavs is a little bit in flux, but I think they intend to keep Max Trues so that they lose those two guys. But my point is that if you want to do something to appeal to LeBron,

you're not going to do it with a with a PowerPoint presentation or a presentation on the scoreboard. You're going to do it with what you do with your roster. And so and so if you have Porzingis or if you have, you know, something with, that's just, that's just interesting. Now, the heat don't really have that, Bobby, but they have Janus that they got. That's their move is Janus.

And the other thing that's interesting, though, like, because Draymond Green opted out of his contract, the Warriors have some flexibility with what they can do. But because James Hardin opted out of his contract, the Cavs has some flexibility of what they could do. In Hardin's case, I think his guaranteed money that he's going to do is going to be what it is. But Hardin potentially could take it

and stretch it out over an extra year to get to maneuver the money a little bit. So there's a lot of balls in the air here, Bobby. Well, I mean, I think when you take a, case-by-case example, and we started with Golden State. It's like how much if they're not going to trade Jimmy Butler, which is really their biggest trade asset, right? When you look at it and they've got, I guess, two and a half picks at first to trade because

one of them is top 20 protected. Yeah, top 20 protected. That's the one that goes to Dallas, right, from the AD trade. What do you have available to trade? And, of course, Porzingis, right? Like, what else is that? We put their lineup up today. And I'm looking at it.

And I was like, I put Jimmy in there with LeBron. I'm like, this looks good, right? But that's probably not until February, I would think, or maybe January. And if you're the Warriors, like the idea of trading picks that will be post-steff, I don't know if that's a business you want to get into. The idea, and that's why like the AD thing to me was just insane because not only would it require some kind of post-step draft compensation, but you're going to take on the AD wants an extension challenge and are you going to commit massive salary to AD when Steph's, you know,

playing golf full-time? That doesn't seem very wise. Right. LeBron's playing golf full-time right now. Although I will say, I think it's interesting. Brian, when did he start playing golf? Because it's amazing like how, like... Well, this is his second summer where he's really into it.

And he's really into it right now. But, yeah, people were joking that, you know, last summer he started showing videos and he came up with the sciatica. I'm like, oh my God, he's playing golf and he's got an old man injury. It was interesting because LeBron, like this is part of how LeBron does passive-aggressive stuff sometimes. But like, I don't know if you saw, but he posted a video of him working out like at 5 or 6 a.m. at his home gym today. And he is like totally ripped.

He might be the most in-shaped 41-year-old in the country. But like he posted it just in case. people thought he was getting soft playing golf. And drinking wine. Right, exactly. But like on the, I mean, he probably knew that this was happening today, that he was going to become this free agent today. And like, just in case anybody thought he might have been going soft.

He was like, by the way, I just wanted to show you a topless shot in the mirror in case you think, in case you think I've gotten soft in the offseason. But, yeah, I'm afraid we're going to settle in, Bobby. And I just think there's more cards to play for teams. The one team that I, like I, the one team that I'm just going to point out that I think is interesting. Some people have mentioned Minnesota, and I certainly think the idea of playing with Ant, who is this team USA teammate, it's an interesting idea. I have long thought, and I refuse to bring it up because I just didn't want the headache during the year of having to defend this.

But I have long believed that if there was an outlier team for LeBron, if he was willing to take it. take sort of, you know, some exception, uh, was Denver. Yeah. Um, because the idea of playing and like if you notice during the year this year, he was overly effusive with Yokic. Well, it'd be the two, maybe the two most brilliant basketball minds in the league joining forces and their complimentary, where him and Luca was kind of a who's got the ball in his hands, like Joker's all about having a guy who he, you know, can run pick and roll either way.

you know, can cut off them, all those kind of things. Also, let's just be honest, if the bronze playing with Aunt Lamello for a year, like that, there's a lot of gray in that beard now. It is Santa Claus by Christmas. Yeah, like he played with Rondo, Lamello Rondo. So I'll just point out that he has a relationship with Josh Cronkey, the Cronkey family, the owners of the Nuggets.

He, I believe, was a guest a couple of times on their yacht in the Mediterranean in the summer. Before LeBron was focused on only playing golf in the summer, he used to go, like be on a boat, like the Magic Johnson, Bobby, where he went on a boat for like a week to 10 days. I'd sign up for that. Yeah, well, that was where the banana boat came from. That was in the Caribbean. But this one was, I think it was in the Mediterranean. And so he has some, you know, connection there. And so I don't know, like, I think I probably even said too many words about it even now. But like, if I were Denver, I would kick the tires. Well, and as you mentioned,

he doesn't have to see the practice facility. That's a good thing in Denver's case because it's just one for it in the arena. You got that right. It's one of the few few that's still in that arena. I will say also that people are saying, well, you know, Draymond Green, you know,

Mike had taken care of in Golden State with a clutch connection and Anthony Davis clutch connection. I'd like to point out that Peyton Watson, the Denver Nuggets Restricted free agent, also a clutch client. That he is. Just, you know, not that I think, you know, he has anywhere near the level of relationship with PWAT that he does with those other guys.

I just think I should put it on the, on the record. But more LeBron James speculation, reporting and drama, I'm sure, to come in the coming days. And I'm afraid to say maybe coming weeks. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Okay, that's one side of it. How about the other side of the couple, Bobby? The Lakers now have clarity after sort of sitting on some level of the fence for a couple of months here. They enter a free agency having locked up Austin Reeves on a max deal.

They have $52-ish million. As we're recording this pod, they haven't used any of it yet, although I think they've got a couple of free agent role players that they're lining up. We know that they had meetings planned with Jalen Dern and Walker Kessler. but the restricted game is a brutal game as you've been talking about on TV today. Oh, restricted free agency is like, you know, it's like arbitration, right?

You go in front of somebody and they tell you why that all your flaws and they say basically go get an offer sheet from somebody out there. And when you look at Duren and Kessler and Peyton Watson, it's probably a little bit different, like, you know, the two centers. You know, we've talked about the Lakers with them. And it's like, do you really want to tie up all your money?

for seven days and then come July 7th at midnight be like oh everybody's off the board you know all the free agents are kind of are kind of off the board and everything like that and I do think I think the Lakers were at we almost had to draw a line in the sand sometime today probably in the afternoon like if even if like with LeBron like this is where we are we're just going to go in a different direction if we don't have an answer from you as far as what we want to want to do here but 52 million and this day and age doesn't get you much. I mean, it gets you three guys. It probably gets you three role players, I would think, with that group.

And I think, I think Tim's the center market, you might have to get that in a trade somewhere. And look, they got, they also have the, what is it, the room exception of 9.4. So the anticipation around the league is that they're going to be signing Quentin Grimes and that they're going to be signing Sandro, Mamu Kellishvili. Did I say that correctly?

You did. How about this one on TV today, Tim? So we're doing the touchscreen and stuff like that. And Hannah's like, well, what player you think they're going to sign? And I said, oh, shit. Am I just going to say? And I said it to Richard. I said, you know what, Hannah, I'm going to let Richard say this one's name.

And he's like, I can't see the name. And I said, oh, I'm going to have to say it, aren't I? So I tried to say it on TV today. and I just, Sandra Mamma, I just said Mamu. I know. Yeah, you did punt on it. Now listen, I'm not criticizing you. I couldn't get it out, so I'm proud I got it out.

Anyways, the anticipation is Quentin Grimes, Mamu, Luke Conard is already out the door. He took the little taxpayer mid-level from Phoenix. And then the anticipation is that Marcus Smart will be out the door, likely to Houston. So you're talking about, you know, Mamu is a, he can play some five. but he's more of a power forward. He can shoot it. You know, he's an interesting player. Grimes is obviously a 3-D-ish type of guy

actually really can shoot it. A little bit of experience playing alongside Luca. He was the second worst trade that Nico made that year. That deadline. Kale Martin. By the way, anybody want Caleb Martin? Give him a side call. Anyway, so you mentioned the two bigs.

Right, the two restricted bigs. And, like, I've reported that Walker Kessler, the deal on the table for him from the jazz is five years, roughly 140. I think it's like 137.5 if you want to get technical. I believe that Detroit's offer to Durn is in that same range. This stuff about a Sacramento sign and trade, they're not taken back to Montesabonis at 90-some-odd million

over the next two years. Like, that's just... I mean, Subonis is a good place. but he doesn't fit what they want and they and they don't have to accept a sign and trade. Correct. And so honestly, and then as you mentioned, the right to match. And so do you want to play that game of chicken and tie up your, you know, the vast majority of the capstan? And here's the thing. Walker Kessler's reps at CAA believe that he's worth in the high 30s. They believe that should be the market for him. They believe that is the market for him. They believe that is the market for him.

I mean, the gulf between the Jazz and Walker Kessler is more than $50 million over a five-year deal. So if you're the Lakers, maybe the Jazz blink, if you put, you know, they can do four years. If you put four years and 150 on the table, maybe the Jazz blink at that number. Maybe not. Maybe you can try to work out a sign and trade, but then you're paying that kind of number and giving up probably one of your available first round picks. You know, I probably we can discuss the same type of scenarios for Dern and Detroit. Maybe you're just left completely empty handed. But if you don't get one of these guys, how are you going to deliver on the top item on Lucas' wish list, which is get me a damn legit big?

They may not be able to do it in this transaction cycle. They may have to, they may have to make moves that set themselves up in this transaction cycle for making that move later. It may, you know, you can't always get what you want. Well, and look, you know, we all know Cam Johnson is is being shopped because the Nuggets want to keep Peyton Watson but don't want a crazy tax bill. There could be worse things than using a chunk of your cap space to bring on Cam Johnson, who's a quality player who would also be a human trade exception at like $21 million. Well, this is the story of the Indiana Pacers a couple years ago, right, Bobby, they had this cap space. They really couldn't find a comfortable spot. So they gave Bruce Brown.

He had a great year as a role player with the Nuggets. They gave Bruce Brown a $20 million contract. And as soon as they signed it, they knew they were going to trade him, most likely. And they ended up trading him for Pascal Seaccom, who was a cornerstone of them reaching the finals the following year. So I understand that Luca wants the center right now. I understand the Lakers fans specifically, you know, thinking that they've been looking forward to this cast base for a while. And maybe it will happen. Like maybe the jazz will, you know, blink if there's an offer sheet put on Kessler.

But you may have to do it in a couple of different stages. By the way, Bobby, you were saying today that there hasn't been an offer sheet that was given out that wasn't matched since 2020. And that was by a player, I guess, just signed to agree to a deal in Houston. Bogdan Bogdanovick. Shams reported probably one year, probably that minimum, I guess, there. He's a friend of the pot He's been on the pod before, Bobby's a friend of the pot And that was one of the crazier situations

Because remember wasn't it like Wasn't that with Sack in Milwaukee And then like It was voided. The league voided the deal. Yeah. Let me ask you this. Because this is a

This is a potential scenario here. I'm told this is within the realm of possibility that Walker Kessler If the Jazz don't budge, says fine. I'll play on the qualifying offer, which is 7.1, what, one? One.

Yeah, so, and I'll play on the qualifying offer and I'll leave 130 plus million guaranteed. I believe there'll be a robust market for an unrestricted free agent. Next summer, I'm a bet on myself. He just missed the whole season with injury, just for the point. Right. And, and just, look,

there's NBA inflation and all that, but this is the biggest contract in terms of total value ever offered to a big who's never been an all-star. I'm not saying he never will be, but he hadn't been yet. When's the last time there was a scenario where a guy, forget the number, where a guy left a real large chunk of change on the table to take the qualifying offer?

It doesn't work out well. I mean, I went back and studied all these guys who signed a QO, Tim. It's like been one case, Greg Monroe and went from Detroit to Milwaukee. Like all these guys, like you went through New Orleans and the well, right? I mean like in Dallas, you think that because you become an unrestricted free agent, all of a sudden this windfall of money is going to come your way. And it's basically, so like in the case of Kessel, let's say his starting numbers like 23, 24.

All right. And he signed for seven. You're already in a whole $17 million. So now you're chasing that to the next year. I think the concern probably from the agent side is that probably the length of the contract that you're locked in for five years. And remember, Aaron Vince did the jail and Green. deal, right? Where it was a three-year deal with a player option and everything like that. And I think

from Utah's perspective, it's like, wait a bit, where Kim meant so much money to market in in Jackson, Jr., you know, that's a pretty fair offer and everything. But sign in the QO, man, that comes with a, comes with a significant risk with that. We went through this last year, Jonathan Kaminga for months on end. It was, we're going to sign it. We're going to sign it. We're going to sign it. We're going to sign it. We're going to sign it. I mean, you know, look, I'm not, I'm not involved in it. So I'm not going to claim anybody's bluffing or whatever, but it's a, it's a, you know, it's a tail as old as time. The restricted free agents stare down. And, you know, there's, you know, I will say this, Bobby, what if I told you that there

was actually an unmatched offer sheet in the NBA last year? There was. It was a, uh, Atlanta, I believe. It was a four way. It was a two way. It was a two. I know. Now when I say unmatched, I say five million or plus.

Similar numbers if you just move. He totally screwed up like the process here. Like where did that come from? It's similar numbers as long as you move the decimal points around. Look, I'll throw out another scenario, and this is spitballing. This is just me spitball. If they decide not to play this game, do they take one of those first round picks and maybe even put text on or whatever and dangle it in front of Dallas and say,

hey, we know you've been trying to move Daniel Gafford. who look, there's, you know, the medical, there's some medical concerns there as well. But he's got proven chemistry with Luca. We know he can run pick and roll with Luca. Yeah, I know that, I mean, you know, you've been reporting that Luca has been, you know, requested an A-level or elite. How have you been describing it? Yeah, McMinneman. McMinn actually had that.

Oh, I'm sorry. And I don't rely. I can't be stealing Mac 10's Thunder now. I'm sorry. How has he described it again? An A-list center, I believe. An A-LIS Center. So obviously, Daniel Gafford would not be an A-Less Center.

However, he was the starting center when they went to the finals in Dallas. So I don't know if that qualifies. Here's another idea from the band McMahon auditioning for front office works, spitball department. That should be a segment of the show. Stranger Things have happened. Don't rule it out. How about this one? How about, like I said, you know, like the Cam Johnson or, you know, something like that,

where you're basically getting the human trade exception. And you take that once he's eligible to be moved again. And, you know, AD, things ain't working out in Washington. You know, you put together a little package and AD back to L.A. To team up with the guy that he was traded for. That would be something. Hey, how many A-list centers are there, first of all, if we're being real? Like, it's a pretty short list.

Well, is Walker Kessler an A-List center? He's going to be paid like one he hopes. Well, that may be true. By the way, which DeAndre Aitin used to be. That's true. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay, so then the other big transaction that happened on Tuesday, the Raptors and Clippers come to an agreement to said Kauai Leonard back.

I don't know if I could say this full circle, because full circle would be back to where he started. San Antonio. Half circle? Yeah, I'm not sure how you would say that. Wasn't it really Indiana, though? Fair point. No, I don't think, yeah, Indiana did draft him.

Shout out George Hill. Yeah. So anyway, this situation is, look, after everything the Clippers have been through, and let me first say that before they entered into this, Toronto and the Clippers, I believe, checked with the League Offer, is to make sure that there wouldn't be a holdup based on the aspiration investigation. And, you know, it is what it is. I wish I had more information about that.

I don't. So let me just put that out there. But Bobby, this trade where two unprotected first and an unprotected pick swap go to the lake, to the clippers, along with Brandon Ingram, who was an all-star last year, am I right? Wasn't he? Didn't he make the All-Star team? I believe he did. Yeah. Yeah.

It did not make the all-playoffs team. Well, that's true. But this is the first trade that's happened this year where I think that could actually affect who wins the Eastern Conference or a conference. Now, a lot of business has to be done. We're not, you know, I'm not saying that, but the Raptors significantly changed the hand

that they're holding with this one, Bobby. And the Clippers doing this, well, we'll talk about the Clippers in a little bit, But the Clipper is doing this is a pretty big step for them, and it's a gigantic step for the Raptors. Well, I mean, you roll out a lineup with your fours with Barnes and Kauai, R.J. Barrick, quickly, Pertil, the kid they drafted last year, Murray Boyle is coming off your bench.

And probably closing at five. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, I think Perkins said this on the show. He's like, yeah, when he was talking about Miami, he says, yeah, they're in the top six. And then I started jotting my notes down. and I was like, man, like, New York, Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Miami, Toronto, right? Like, you can go, Indiana is going to be back in play. Like, you go pretty deep.

And I think, I think Bobby Webster, who's their jam, kind of looked at it and was like, we're a nice team, right? Like, this is kind of who we are. But how do we kind of, you know, jump into deep end? And he was there when they traded for Maasai back in 2018. So there's history already with having gone through that year. Well, and look, Toronto was a good team last year, a scrappy team that probably maximized its potential.

But their ceiling wasn't that high because they were an average offensive team that didn't have an elite half-court creator. And they were a team that desperately, needed a closer, especially come playoff time. And if you're just being real, like Brandon Ingram has shrinkage tendencies in the playoffs. Kauai damn sure does not. Like Kauai is one of the great playoff performers when he's on the floor of this generation. And Kauai's still, like Kauai is coming off his best offensive season.

He is an awesome half-court offensive player. I think you can make an argument that a healthy Kauai and Scotty Barnes is the best tandem in the east, you know, especially pending what happens in Boston. You know, if the Celtics, if Jaylon is still there, the Celtics, I have an argument, but whatever. It's a, it's damn sure high on the list. The reward is like, look, their ceiling is absolutely winning the East. And if you win the East, you can win it all. But there's a lot of risk here too.

For obvious reason, I mean, Kauai is in his mid-30s. He's had major durability issues. there's going to be an extension. I highly doubt it's going to be a discount extension. And you gave up the two picks here are unprotected and post-Kawai. So like the Clippers did pretty well on the return in terms of the draft capital. They did really well, I think. And again, like I love the move for the Raptors.

I really respect teams that take big swings when they, you know, timing makes sense. But it is high risk, high reward. Where do you think the extension is going to be? Well, that's one of the biggest things you're going to do to grade this is, you know, what they're going to do here. I mean, he's 35, Bobby. I mean.

Do you try to use KD's extension with Houston as a comp? What was that two years? What was that two years? 90, Tim? Yeah, something like that. I would think Kauai was probably going to want more than that. I do too. That could be wrong.

He's eligible for two for 124. It's a big number. Two for one ten. Give him two for one ten. And, you know, like allow him to have a luxury suite of blue jays and organauts and whatever the, I'm not allowed to talk hockey, whatever the NHL team is. Whatever the NHL team is. is in Toronto. All right. We're going to stick to that mandate, but geez, I may want to, you know, anyway, they've got, you know, Toronto has a lot on their books, Bobby. It's one of the

reasons why they wanted to make a trade here. But look, at the ultimately, depending on how this season goes, is going to be what this is, this is, you know, this is a, you know, obviously how it goes this year is a big indicator of of whether or how this trade will be looked. But the extension will be a factor in how this was. Look, I know like the reporting has been, Ashams has been talking about

how Kauai wants to go there and retire and he wants to go back full circle and everything. He's going back to because of the money. I mean, I think he likes the team. Yeah. He certainly feels like they can win. And you look at the Eastern Conference And, you know, it hasn't, you know, a new juggernaut hasn't presented itself. You know, we'll see what Detroit does with its money and we'll see what happens with Jalen Brown.

But, you know, there are reasons you can select. And, of course, there's good feelings and whatnot. But he's going back there because they were willing to give him whatever they're going to give him. I mean, that's a huge factor. But don't you think Detroit would have given them money to? And Detroit. He didn't say Detroit. He didn't say he wanted to go to Detroit.

I'm just saying like that would have been a hell of a competitive situation too. So I, you know, Detroit is watching its money spending. I mean, this is why Jailen Duren is, you know, snorting a little bit because they, you know, they weren't willing to give him what he wanted. I think they're being protective of their books. Are they being protective of their books because they're trying to take a swing at a a legitimate co-star to pair with Cade Cunningham? Fair question, fair follow-up.

Yeah. I mean, look, if Jalen Durham performed during the playoffs, like he did during the regular season, I think things would be going a lot more smoothly. Well, and they got to extend a SAR too. So their books are going to get a little heavy here. You know, Toronto, you know, also I think Detroit does have the control of their picks, right? Bobby going forward. Yeah, they got them all. You know, sometimes you get in a situation where one team doesn't have a, you know, can't offer draft.

F-picks, you know, like, for example, even if Sacramento, like, had a shot at getting Duran, they don't have the same capital to offer as other teams. In this case, both Toronto and Detroit could have offered the same pick package. So, but Kauai declared Toronto. All right, definitely, by the way, the Raptors might not be done, Bobby. They could still work on this roster a little bit if they wanted to. So we'll see. All right.

So I know we had a lot of stuff go on today, but one thing I want to. wanted to point out. I'd like to take you a little back in time, guys. I want to go back to December 18th, 2025. On that night, the Clippers got blown out by the Thunder in Oklahoma City. Were you at that game, McMahon? I don't believe so, but I cannot be certain at this exact moment. Anyway, that night, the Clippers lost their 10th game on their last 11 at that point to fall to 6 and 21. And you may recall that they had the oldest Bob was it the oldest team in NBA history or? Well, I call

it most seasoned, you know, but I respect that. But that was their low point. They were old. Yes. They were old. Had CP3? Yes. He was gone. Okay. CP3 was the

in Miami. Remember they had a that was a sign-or. Mid-road trip, I do recall, yes. It was a part of that Tay, that was a part of that stretch. Okay, so six and 21. Six and 21 with the oldest team in the league. And now let's fast forward here seven months later.

And Bobby, look, you can't deconstructing a team. Anybody can deconstruct a team. It's the building up of the team that's the hard part. But I just want to pause, you know, in the wake of everything else here. And note the maneuvers the clippers are making. And there's an asterisk out there at the aspiration. and I don't know what's going to happen, et cetera. But Bobby, if you look at what the clippers have done in these last seven months,

it's been a pretty interesting, aggressive, and potentially fruitful franchise pivot that sort of culminated with Kauai today. Well, you're right. I mean, and it started certainly with the Hardin Trade for Garland, and then they do Zubotch for the two ones that turns into the fifth pick with Keaton Wogler, and then they do Kauai to Toronto. for Grady Dick, Brian Ingram, two unprotected first. Was there a pick swap in there too in a couple seconds?

Someone, I don't know if he was you, Wendy, but someone said they got all their picks back from the Paul George trade. Not quite. They're still missing Shay. We'll see if there's a Jalen Williams. So, yeah, so they've, like, I think the hardest thing when you're building rosters is, like, pivoting because you always want to just like keep the course keep the course keep the course and when you pivot sometimes when they let paul go and now it's uh with uh with with kawai they have basically

signal like the youth movement is is coming here they've got a ton of flexibility uh this year and and moving forward um so i give them credit as far as like you weren't going to extend kawai like that was the big thing right well i mean like they picked up three unprotected first round picks that they still haven't used, plus the number five pick in this draft, plus Darius Garland, plus they've got $20 million in salary cap flexibility. And I don't know what they're going to do with Ben Matherin. But, like, I agree they're not going to the finals. And Brandon Ingram is a year away from being an expiring contract where, you know,

there's going to be some potential flexibility with that as well. And they've done all this despite the fact that they still owe swap next year. to OKC now Toronto's and Balls, so they won't fall quite as far in that swap. They owe 28 unprotected to Philly and they owe a 29 swap to Philly. So they're not sitting, they're holding tight to their pride

saying, oh my gosh, we have to minimize the damage. You're saying, hey, man, swing and a miss of the Kauai era, and they kind of admitted that when they let Paul George go, how do we try to build something real in the next chapter of franchise history? And it wasn't clinging to hope. It was, you know, clearly they decided moving on and creating all this flexibility and kind of reloading with some draft ammo. Yeah.

So I just think it, you know, and they're not done, Bobby. I mean, I mean, they could enter the restricted market. Like, they could be a Peyton Watson team if they wanted. They have the type of money, I think, available, especially if they decide to move on from Matherin. Like, they could sign Matherin, but they could move on from him and then open up even more space. I think they would approach 30 million in space if they did that. you know, they may not be done with moves to try to, you know, retrofit their team. No, they can pull the Matherin qualifying offer up until July 13th without his permission.

And if they really want to put the screws to the Denver Nuggets, you'll plop down a big offer sheet on Peyton Watson and see if they match or not here. Because that is certainly a Denver team that's got some financial woos that are coming their way. So Denver has let everybody know that they're not worried about Nikola Yokic at all, which, you know, Yokic is on the record as saying he wants to be a nugget for life, etc. But, Bobby, if Yolkish doesn't extend, I think you could see teams, you know, start to think about 2027. I'm loath to say that because I don't really think it's going to happen, but I've had several teams mention this to me in the last couple of days.

Well, I mean, it's interesting. And Tim knows this is that. a year ago, he didn't extend because it was a financial decision, right? Because he could have waited this year to add another year. And then this year, if he doesn't extend, it will probably be financial decision also because he can add another year of like $80 million here, which I totally respect, right? Maximize your earnings. This is probably his last big, really big bite of the Apple.

But, man, if you're in that front office, there are some easy. Yeah, you can be a free agent next year. Yeah. Some, you know, I mean, how rare is it for a. top two, top three player to hit unrestricted free agency. Like that is a rare. Everybody extends and they never get to free agency. But that I would be a little bit uneasy, even if he's saying, in which I believe

him, it's financially driven. Well, and look, I get it. And if they get bounced in the first round again this year, you get more uneasy. And it's going to be really hard for, like, are the Nuggets going to get better as they're looking for ways to, like, if they're going to sign pay, Watson, they're almost certainly losing either Cam Johnson or Christian Brown. They're looking for a place to get off of those deals. They just lost him Hardaway Jr., who was a very good for them in that sixth man role. He got basically, I don't know, whatever the raise was. He got more

from Miami than the nuggets we're going to give them. We'll see about Spencer Jones, who, you know, like it's going to be hard for them to even be, I think, as good from a roster standpoint as they were last year, much less get better. Well, one more note on the Clippers. They did make a signing today, Bobby. Do you remember who they signed today? I do. I do. Kobe Sanders.

Oh, Kobe Sanders. Four years, 11 million. You know, it's too interesting on the Clippers, and we were talking about this a little bit. I mean, really more Toronto, is that you would think they would put a call into the legal office, right? To just say, hey, we're going to trade for this guy. we just want to make sure nothing,

there's not going to be any, you know, ramifications here. I did check on that. And it seems like the league background work due diligence, I guess, is the term. Yes. Due diligence about whether or not the league would block a kawai trade was done before doing it. Who is the NBA's board of governor's chairman? It was Larry Tannenbaum, the governor of the Raptors, but he is outgoing of the Raptors.

He's probably got a pretty direct line to Adam Silver, wouldn't you think? That's true. He is, by the way, selling his shares and soon to leave the chairmanship. He's the owner of the Toronto Tempo of the WNBA. So that's wouldn't be his focus. He also, I believe, is bidding on an NBA Europe franchise for for information that you weren't asking for as you made your point. Your implication is that you think that the chairman of the NBA's ownership owners

would know whether or not there's a... I don't know. Supposedly, this is a law firm doing a completely independent investigation, Mr. McMahon. Sure, but it's going to be Adam Silver ultimately making the decision. Well, also, if you really want to go down

the conspiracy theory, hold a team that was, you know, theoretically harmed by Kauai's, you know, free agency, whatever has been alleged, was the Raptors. And so Kauai is back with the Raptors. So...

You know, the irony, too, real quick, is that, and he's not going to get it. Because of the Raptors hard cap situation is that Clippers would owe him this trade bonus. It's like $7.5 million. I was like going away present. I mean, but Toronto can't do because they're so, they're really close to that. Like, could you, like, that is just fitting, right? How everything has transpired.

Hey, there was a big announcement, the NBA today, McMahon. The NBA Cup is moving out of Las Vegas after two glorious years and into the site of a former McMahon finals pickup run and slightly less impressive, the movie Hoosiers, Henkel Fieldhouse in Indianapolis. Yeah, I mean, Oscar Robertson won a couple of state championships there. I honestly played like crap in pickup that night. I do think I abuse Jackson, though, but that's like a pretty low bar. Bon Tim's played.

I didn't play against him, but I've told you boys this before. We're Bontem's Hoops-Sy podcast, which means he talks a lot and contributes very little. But we seem to have found a mute button for him, which has been a pleasant. I thought, I thought like he was coming over and guarding someone else's man. Like he was assigned to guard this guy. He came over and, you know, starts to just push you off your man. Yeah. We love you, Timothy.

I actually, I love this, though, because when you heard like the college venues, you're like, Okay, like, are there like logistically? How's it going to work if it's like Cameron Indoor? Yeah, Cameron Indoor. You know, I mean, Adam Silver is a Duke guy. So that was certainly on the short list. I wouldn't be surprised if Cameron Indoor gets in the rotation. I hear you.

But Indy is obviously a city that's accustomed to hosting big events. And it is a really cool arena. It's only what? It's only like 9,100 seats. Yeah, it's going to be premium seating. Of course, some of those semi-final games in the early. NBA Cup. And this is just the one, it's only the championship.

Just the championship game. Yeah, the semifinals are now at home arenas, which I think is also a good to build. And I'll be honest with you, we get enough Vegas covering the NBA. We didn't need to have a winner trip every year as well. Well, the NBA is, I believe, going to be expanding to Las Vegas pretty soon. So the Knicks got to defend that NBA Cup. You know, they should prepare to scout out the Hinkle Fieldhouse. They should be suspended.

They should be suspended from Cup play for not raising the ribbon. Wow. We haven't seen the banner yet. Perhaps they will add something to the banner. They'll just pin on the little ribbon. Yeah, you think it'll be denoted on the ring, on the championship ring? You know, like, be like engraved on the inside, like it microscopically, NBA Cup champs, 25. All right.

Well, the first day of NBA Free Agency is over. Certainly there was some big news. I think there's going to be significant more stuff that happens in the next 24 hours. Everyone's afraid of being busted for tampering. There's a whole bunch of things that have been agreed to that no one's afraid. Everyone's afraid to say right now because some guys got busted for tampering a couple years ago. So we don't get to have as much fun on the first day. No, we don't get a sign and trade at 602.

Yes, right. We've seen it before. All right. Thank you very much to all of our producers. Today we've got Mark, Jackson, and Tucker. Thank you to Bobby. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you for listening and watching The Hoop Collective.

We'll talk to you later this week. Adios amigos.