Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Major Wemby Disappointment: Thunder Take 3-2 Lead Over Spurs In Pivotal Game 5

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the Thunder’s big Game 5 win over the Spurs. The guys break down SGA’s statement game, OKC’s role players stepping up, Wemby’s struggles and much more. Then, we tackle the fallout of the Cavs loss on the season before diving into a massive trade that could be looming and entertain the possibility of a LeBron return. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Activia. You might already be eating yogurt, but not all yogurts are created equal. Activia contains over one billion probiotics per serving to survive and reach the gut alive. When it comes to gut health, Activia is the number one family doctor-recommended probiotic yogurt brand. Choose Activia. Feel good from the inside out. Visitactivia.ca for more details. Hello and welcome to Hoot Collective Podcast. we talk about the NBA, which we are doing on Wednesday morning, early in the morning.

Joining me from New York City, where the New York Knicks await the winner of the Western Conference and our climbing lamp poles and other general public displays of love of the Knicks, I guess. Tim Bonteps. Hello, everybody. And yes, the fervor over the Knicks has not died down. It's not going to die down for another week until game one of the finals. and everybody here is rooting for seven games in the Western Conference to make the band work a little bit more

and to have these two juggernauts beat themselves up for a few extra days. And joining us from the Paycom Center in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, where the Thunder won by 13. They scored, I think, 45 more points in game five than they did in game four, which is an indication of how vastly different the two games were to take a three-two lead in the Western Conference finals. It is Band McMahon. Howdy, partners, can I tell you, I'm fine if this thing goes seven.

I'd like to cover an epic series. The first two games were unbelievable just theater. And then it's kind of gone a little bit of a swing here. The last three games haven't been that competitive, but you add it all up. It's a three-two series. And, you know, tonight was certainly the Thunder's Night, despite a slow start by Shagos, Alexander. and I'm going to read you everything

that Victor Wimbunyama had to say after the game. Okay, that's it. I think your connection glitched to there. No, we didn't. Old Wimby, who had a dud tonight, honestly,

Isaiah Hartnstein and the group, didn't let him get anything going. Made a bunch of free throws, as did Shea, by the way. But 4.15 from the floor and shockingly unimpactful defensively, he did not do media. Not the end of the world,

but a bad look for a guy who's supposed to be the next face of not just the franchise league. This will be constantly reset. I mean, this won't stay this way, but this was the biggest game of his career tonight. Yeah. His first ever, you know, 2-2 Game 5s defined Star's career, certainly Game 7s, but 2-2 Game 5s is usually more of those, okay? And certainly, you know, the guy that I covered, LeBron, 2011.

2-2 Game 5's, you know. established his career. Okay. Victor went four or 15 tonight and had a surprising just six rebounds. Well, just six rebounds.

And honestly, I'm looking for the number here. The Thunder's were 27 points on 11 of 16 shooting when Wimby was the primary defender. Highest field goal percentage with Wemby as a primary defender in a game this postseason.

I mean, he just wasn't impactful, period. No. He really wasn't. And look, I do think it's tough for this guy to bring it when the series is every other day with the physical load that he has on him.

And the Thunder, you know, this was the second game that Isaiah Hardinstein was the primary defender. And him obviously they're going to rotate it throughout games. In both of those games, he defended them very well. But they're rotating not just throughout games, but throughout the series. Because they have that kind of depth, you know, we're talking or texting during the game, like Jaylon Williams might be the best backup big in the NBA. He's definitely on a very short list.

I mean, people in Detroit can talk about Isaiah Stewart if you want. You know, Crusoe is taking his time, so on and so forth. Like, I get the physical challenge here. He's obviously the primary focus of the game plan. But look, dude, it was a failure of a performance from him, and it was a failure of a post game. Like, it's part of his responsibility to sit there and send the mess. message from the locker room.

He's the face of that team and it's supposed to be a face of the league. And look, Shea's message was basically, hey, thank you, teammates, because I stunk it up in the first quarter and you guys came through for me. And that was exactly right now. Shea, you know, got it going in the second and third quarter and certainly did his part to pull out the win with 32 points and nine assists, but not its most efficient performance. Six turnovers, half of those in the first quarter. And he said, as one of the worst starts of my career,

if there were four or five mees out there, we'd have been down by 20 at the end of the quarter, instead of being right there. I was watching very closely the start of this game because the last two games, the Spurs have gotten out to enormous starts. And while they did lead early, Victor was not part of that.

Basically, Julian Champany came out and got hot from three and got up an early lead. I believe every other guy on the team took a shot before he did. So look, I'm not at these games. I'm watching these games. but I thought Victor looked like he had low energy in game three, and I was worried that he was wearing down, and then he came back in game four and had a brilliant game.

I thought he was low energy again tonight. And like, look, I know Deere and Fox is playing on, you know, a high ankle sprain that normally, I mean, a regular season, he's probably sitting. But he goes 4 or 15. Devin Vassell, who's been a really important third score in this series, goes 2 of 11, and Wembe goes 4 of 15. I mean, you know, Champany had four threes.

Castle had a good offensive game, which, you know, he hasn't always shot the ball well. He shot the ball great from three in this game. Listen, there's no Jaylon Williams in this game for the Thunder. There's no AJ Mitchell in this game from the Thunder, right? Two other main primary ball handlers for O.K.C. other than Shea. Obviously, Shea's really good, but you need to have more than one guy typically, right? Twice in this game, Victor Wembegiamma was on the court, once in each half,

and She goes Alexander was on the bench one time in each half. The Thunder won both those stints and outscored the spurs in those minutes by eight points. Like that sums up the game right there. Like if the Thunder, if the Thunder are going to win the Victor on, Shea off minutes in a game, they're going to win the game. And that gets right to the heart of it, which, again, like, a lot of this stuff ultimately is pretty reductive. And She struggled early in the game, but when the Thunder got going,

It was Shea getting going in the middle of the game. Diamond guys up for assists and making buckets and getting to the line and making plays, right? And in the two games, the Spurs have won in the series. Victor has been awesome. And in the games, they have not won in the series. He has not been nearly as good. Well, that's exactly right. He's been the best player by far in the Spurs, two wins.

And, you know, it's not even like Shea's been the best player necessarily. Like right now, if the series ends today, if it was best of five, My vote would go to Alice Caruso as the MVP of the series. Interesting. Yeah, well, in that, you know. Mine too, probably. I want to talk about Caruso in a second. So we said the Wembe Nyama had, he had 20, he had 20 points.

He made 12 free throws. That's how he got to 20. But 4.15, didn't rebound, not nearly as normal. It just wasn't impactful on the game. But let me give you this number. So Victor, 20.6 rebounds, okay? He's minus 8. Chet Holmgren and Isaiah Hardinstein combined.

Checked 6 of 9, Hardinstein. 16, 6 of 8 shooting. That's 12 of 17. That's better than 4 of 15. Yes, it is. Chet score is 16, Isaiah 12. So that's 28. So we're looking at 12 of 17 of 28 points.

Between the two of them, 26 rebounds. Chet 11, Hardinstein, Hardinstein, 15, 26 rebounds. Chet had a massive game. I mean, look, he wasn't perfect. No, his first quarter, he was 4-4 and kind of kept him afloat while she was. But just in general, I mean, it was a significant step forward for Chet after being terrible, basically the entire first four games.

Now, there were stretches of this game where he was also not great, getting bullied inside some, giving up playoffs where I didn't think he should have. But, like you said, he was huge to start the game and kept a minute before the spurs could run away and hide again. kept the crowd in the game, which I thought was big. And like you said, Brian, like, again, Isaiah Hartstein and Chad Holgren, like,

they outplayed Victor in this game. Like, if that happens again in the series, the Spurs season is going to end. And look, I am not going to sit here and say the spurs are losing Thursday or definitely losing

one of the next two games. Like, they've shown they're good enough in the series. The Thunder are still probably missing both A.J. Mitchell and Jaylon Williams. He could just put up two awesome games that could.

But, But there's a reason why I have and we have all talked about the experience of going through the playoffs mattering all season. Because for as great as this guy is, and look, maybe he will pull this off and win the next two games. I am 100% not ruling it out. But there's a reason basically everybody in the history of league has had to fail before they win. This is really hard. It's really hard to go through it. It's really hard to learn the amount of energy it takes to get through it and how to deal with going through it.

and every great player in the history of the league has had to go through that in some form or fashion. So this next game, like you said, game five is the biggest game of victor's career. Now game six is going to be the biggest game of victor's career. If they win that, it's going to be the same thing in game seven. And part of all this stuff is learning how to go through that and navigate that and deal with that.

And some days you're going to have 41 and 24 and be on top of the world. And some days you're going to have 20 and 6 and not be very good and lose. And like, that's just part of learning what it's, like to be in that kind of position. All right. So, McMahon, you mentioned Caruso. So in game four, Alex Caruso. Had a dud. I mean, dud. He took one shot, missed it, one shot.

Yep. Sort of emblematic of the Thunder's entire performance. They scored 83 points. Tonight they scored 127. 82, but who's counting? 82, sorry. The lowest scoring game since they got blown out by 73, a record setting blowout by the Memphis Grizzlies in December 21. Yeah. So Caruso tonight, awesome.

Oh, four, three, six assists. You know, they put the ball in, in Cason, and Caruso's hands a little bit more to sort of make up for no A.J. Mitchell, no J. Mitchell, no J.L. Williams. They combined for 11 assists. But Caruso, man, what a player. And listen, man, Caruso is the ultimate playoff riser. You know, Caruso and Hartnstein were brought in to be the finishing pieces. They've both been huge, really, in last year's title run. and the last two years total, but also especially in this series.

And look, Hartens, I'm not going to sit here and tell you Hardinstein, shutting down Victor Wimanjama because that, you know, he'll be the first to tell you, one, it's not a one-man job, two, you're not just going to shut him down, but he's doing a hell of the job against him. He's making it, he's making him work for everything that he gets. And then Crusoe, you know, again, remember, coming into this series, a big part of the Spurs game plan, because obviously what's, the number one thing you're trying to take away from OKC.

It's Shay, obviously, the guy's back-to-back MVP. You want to clog things up, the driving lanes on him. You know, they're doubling a bunch early in the series. And they were leaving Caruso wide open, which worked in the regular season. He has shot at great. I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but he shot it great during this, during the series. 18 of 28 on three. There you go, 18 and 28 on threes.

Yeah. And Landry Shiam, it's like, pf. Yeah, right. That's nothing. And Caruso does all the Caruso stuff, all the activity, all the hustle plays, all the just defensive disruption. You know, and like Shea said, hey, he's a two-time champ. He's the most experienced player on this team. He's played in the most big games on this team.

You can't just, you know, try to manufacture that kind of experience. And, you know, in Shea's words, Alex Caruso is one of, if not the best competitor in the NBA. And you're feeling that in this series. By the way, you're feeling that from Hartnstein as well. And so those are the two finishing pieces that Presti brought in before last season. And the guy he brought in this year has made a hell of an impact in this series. Jared McCain. And here's a dude who, you know, and it's been a bit of a roller coaster for.

for him because he has the spectacular game three, total dud like everybody else in game four, one and ten. But they throw him in the starting line and because they don't have AJ Mitch. By the way, how about Mark Dagenal, a guy goes one to ten and he says, now this young man, here comes your first playoff start. And he stunk in the first half of this game. And he scores 18 of his 20 in the second half. Yeah.

I mean, to me, it's even Mark Dagnall going back to him in the second half. We're like, all right, we're going to keep going with you again. and like, because he's going to Casano Wallace or somebody else and he, you know, stuck with it and yeah, Becaine responded with a massive second half hitting a bunch of huge shots.

And a couple things. One, like Caruso said, you never have to worry about this guy being aggressive. Like, that's who he is. Make or miss, he thinks the next one's going in and he's going to get his shots up

and you're going to have to guard him. The other thing is, what's the concern about putting Jeremy McCann in the starting lineup? It gives the, to spur somebody to attack. They tried. They were 4.14 with him as the primary defender.

Fox, Castle, and Vassell were 0 of 9. You know, the top three perimeter scores in the starting line were 0 of 9 going at them. And we didn't even talk about Kendrick Williams. Kenrich, you always screw that up. I always screw it up. Kendrich Williams. He comes in, plays 12 very impactful minutes, hits a couple of threes. Guy would be in a rotation for almost any other team, and it's just a great class of

case of emergency guy. That's why I say the Thunder are never desperate. Well, and listen, man, I know people get bored by the Boy Scout Thunder culture and all that, but think about Kenrich Williams. He doesn't play other than garbage time, the first two series.

And, you know, really not until game four did to get thrown in the rotation. And he was one of the only guys who played well in game four, and then he comes in and gives them some big minutes in game five. They had two massive threes. And then, you know, Case and Wallace, he got pulled from the starting lineup today.

He got pulled, you know, like he was the guy who started once AJ Mitchell went down. He's started a bunch of games when they had guys out this year. Mark Dagonal walks in, you know, 10 minutes before shoot around, she says, hey, Kaysen, you know, we're going to go with Jared in the starting line tonight. You're going to come off the bench. And as Mark said, it's not a conversation that he was worried about. He, you know, like he knows Kaysen's going to handle. He's a young guy, ambitious, obviously, extension eligible.

this summer, by the way, he's not worried about all that. He's worried about winning games. And the guy comes out and he's plus 29 tonight. And, you know, you mentioned the assist. He had a couple blocks, a couple steals. But it's not like he had a huge score. He's just making all kinds of winning plays. And that's kind of the epitome of this team.

They've got 13 dudes on the roster who have proven they can make winning plays. I want to talk about what we think we're going to see in game six. But real quick, was there a lot of. was there any clarity about why Alex Caruso went to the back? Because I was changing planes in Minneapolis during this. By the way, you know Minneapolis Airport, Bontamps. You're the Delta man. Sure.

I had to go from, this is all inside baseball. You know, we have some traveler. We have some Delta frequent flyers. I had an F-15 to B-6 tonight. It's a hell. It's a tough. It's a tough travel across. F-15 to B-6.

And I walked the whole. Travel across the airport. Do they both have first class? You know when they're not relevant. It's a question. It is relevant. I traveled across the air. I walked the whole thing.

I didn't take the train. He had to shuffle those legs a little ways across the airport to get to his second point. My point is like during that time, I didn't see Caruso and I was listening on the radio to Marquester Scher and P.J. Colissimo. And they thought he might have had a head injury. The TV broadcast thought he might have had an ankle injury. Was there any clarity to that? I'll be honest with you. I did not get clarity.

All right. Fine. Yeah. I just wanted you credit for my He did. He hit his head on the floor. However, he stepped on, I believe, Saffan Castle's foot, was feeling his ankle.

He went to the back. He very quickly came back to the bench and he came back in the game. I think he rolled his ankle. Right. Okay. But I didn't get clarity. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this.

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Okay, one thing I want to point out, actually a couple of things. First off, Shaggildos Alexander was 7 of 19 tonight. Now, this was in game four, that officiating crew, let that game be a little bit more physical free throws were down in that game. In this game, both teams took over 30 free throws. The Thunder 38, the Spurr 32. Wembe took 12. Shea took 17, made 16 of them.

I'm sure certain people have a certain feelings. But he's 7 of 19 in this series, or in this game. In the game, yeah. In the series, he is now, this is a guy, by the way, who shot 55% during the regular season. Yeah. Okay. He's now, this is easy math to do. He's now 38 of 100.

Oh, I know what that is. That's 38%. This is a guy. I think he shot over 50% four years in a row, something like that? Three, four years in a row? He's averaged 30 plus on better than 50% shooting four straight years. And the spurs are doing a hell of a job defending. I mean, I'm not saying he's sucking. I'm just saying he's in an all-out battle here.

No Jalen Williams. And they can really load up on them. And they are. These other guys are, and they are loading up on them. That's why, you know, in game four, the others didn't hit any shots. Thunder got wrecked. In game three in game five,

the others hit a lot of shots and they won. And like that, I mean, there's two pretty obvious things to watch going into game six. One is the energy level of Victor Wenbinoa is he going to come out and be hyper-aggressive right from the jump, which I sort of expect him to do

if he's gotten in him, if the tank just is not empty. And then on the other side, how are the others going to be? play. Like, Shea's going to put up numbers. They'll probably do it not as efficiently as normal, but he's going to, he always gets points.

He always gets assists. I think if the Thunder are winning game six, it's because they get another good game from Alex Crusoe. They get some shots from Jared Bicane. Jalen Williams hits some threes. Cason Wallace hits some threes. Isaiah Hartstein plays well again. Chath Holmgren plays well again.

Like they need, presuming Jaylon Williams is still out, which I think we all would agree, especially now that it's shifted to a hamstring strain, on the injury report. It's hard to see him playing. It's hard to see A.J. Mitchell playing with a calf string. Yeah, they're just calling it.

They're not playing shenanigans with A.J. Mitchell. They're just saying he's out. They're pretending like Jalen might play, and he's obviously not. Yeah, he's doing this like stationary shooting stuff pregame. And then it's like, oh, he's out. So are the others going to make enough plays? Like, I think that's, what's Victor look like? What do the others look like?

If you tell me those two questions, you probably tell me what the game looks like. I hear what you're saying. and I don't necessarily disagree. Mark Dagon will also talk about, like, you know, he loves the word force. And by that, he's talking about aggression and not just like aggression of the guy who's got the ball in his hands,

but aggression in the off ball movement, you know, the cutting, aggression on the screen, aggression, how fast they're getting into their actions, how fast they're bringing the ball at the floor. You know, and then, you know, kind of, that leads to better shots, you know, is what he'll tell you.

He said game four was, like, as ugly as the results were, he said it was their worst process game by far all season long, you know, the process and the results matched. I'm not going to rule out, though, with all due respect to Stefan Castle and Victor Wimanjama and the rest of these Spurs defenders, I'm not going to rule out that Shea, a lot like he did in the close-out game against the Lakers having his best game of the series

and having an MVP caliber, you know, knockout punch. Oh, I'm not saying that's not in the cards either. But like, even if Shea does that, let's say She goes for 45 in the game. Like, he can't do it by himself. And he's going to need some of those other guys to make plays. And again, on the other side, to me with the spurs, just everything starts and ends with what Victor looks like. And if Victor looks like he did it all in game one or at all in game three,

then the spurs are going to be live in it. And if he looks like he did in games, especially games three and five, you know, I'd say there's a pretty good chance of series ends on Thursday. Well, along those lines. So in the series with the wolves,

Dylan Harper, okay, average 15 points, six rebounds, shot 57%. Like was a, you know, Victor, you know, in that series, you know, he had a good series, but he was not credible. He average less than 20 points a game.

And then Dylan was incredible in game one, and then he had that adductor injury in game two. So game one, he scores 24, now double overtime, so there's a little bit extra time. 24, 11, 6, and 7. 24, 11, 6, and 7. So then he gets hurt in game 2. Game 3 comes back, I think much to our surprise. Yeah. And he goes, 2 of 7 in that game shooting, 2 of 4 in game 4.

And then tonight, let's see, he was. Yeah, he was one to five, five points, six rebounds, three assists. Look, it's going to be really tough for them to win, obviously with Wemby doing what he did, but like if Fox and Harper combined for 14 points on 20 shots, that ain't going to cut it. They need two of their three guards at least to really play well. Or they need Wembe to put up 40. Yeah. Which you can do.

And they still need those guards to do stuff to, again, like it starts with Victor. Victor's got to be great, but they're going to need some of those guys to do stuff too. And again, we're talking about Dearen Fox playing on a high ankle spring. We're talking about Dylan Harper playing through the seductive thing. I know they're not in the injury report, but those guys clearly aren't 100% and full props to them for playing. Like, these teams are, this is a war and these teams are fighting through it every game. And you could see in this game, there was a lot of tired mistakes on both sides in the second half of this game. Because, I mean, like Brian said, I don't get the pleasure of being in the building like you are.

but I mean this is this is as high intensity and its physical basketball as you're gonna see like you know this is the highest level stuff possible so I mean it's it's a knockdown dragout fight to get through each of these games and it's starting to look like it on both sides well this to me this got seven written all over it

because I think Victor bounces back and I'm not sure I mean like maybe Shay goes down there to San Antonio and like and has a breakout out. I mean, he had 32 tonight, but it was not. That wouldn't have pretty 32. Maybe, you know, he's a 27 MVP. Maybe he does it. But I'm not seeing Shea. I think Shea's going to have to be in an absolute dog fight throughout this thing.

And I think Victor has a big bounce back because I just think that's his personality. And I think he'll rise to the occasion. And one thing about this first team is when they've had adversity throughout the playoffs, they've always bounced back. So I don't know how you feel about the McMahon. You're, you know, you're dealing with this travel back and forth. But this has seven written all over it to me. I packed several suits. How many shoes? Well, I went home briefly on Monday. I got five suits, I think seven pairs of shoes. I'll tell you this. So we were packing out all the logistics people in Cleveland today. We did some TV today from the arena. Oh, you were wearing the Cavs wine, too. I noticed that.

More low. Oh, ho. Charter de ne. It's always kind of, you know, there's always sort of a somberness when you are staying to do TV when the team season is over. I'd like to shut down the arena for the year. So we were in the arena today and they were, you know, peeling everything apart. But anyway, they were shipping everything all the, all the gear. Like they were getting ready and they were just shipping it to Dallas, McMahon.

They didn't know. They didn't know if we were going to have. to send everything to Oklahoma City or send everything to San Antonio. So they're shipping stuff from Dallas and they're going to hold it there. Well, that's where my layover is. Well, that's the thing. I mean, it's got to change, all the gears got to change planes there anyway. So it's all going to Dallas and waiting for further instruction.

There you go. But, yeah, I think this has seven written all over it. I don't know how you feel about it, Bontemps, but. I mean, it's going to be fascinating to see. I mean, look, I mean, it's not a great look for Victor to walk out without talking tonight. Well, a great look would be to come back with a big game. in game and game since. You better show up and play well on Thursday.

Nobody will remember. Because, you know, he's very good. And look, Victor, Victor's going to be the face of the league. I think his reign atop the league, whether they win the series or not, started with game one. That's going to be like LeBron's 48 special. Like, they didn't win the finals that year, but that's like sort of the first moment everybody really remembers. Like, everybody's going to remember that 41 and 24 game and winning game one. But, you know, like that I expect better of that.

And look, who knows, maybe there's something going on. But at the end of the day, he didn't have a good game and he didn't talk to the media. It's not great. So let's see how he and they respond. This is a, like you said, they've bounced back a million times this year. They've been incredibly resilient despite being a really young team. And, you know, I expect them to go back home and play great. But let's see how it goes.

And like you said, Big Man, let's see if She can go in there and take them out. You know, I mean, he is the two-time MVP for a reason. I was going to say, let's see if Shay can go there and say, by the way, you'll get there one day, but I'm the man right now. He's got a chance to make that kind of statement. Sure. All right.

Back on the Hoop Collective with Bonnison. No, McMahon. Much better. All right, Bon Temp. So Kenny Atkinson won, I think. So they won 52 games this year and 64 last year. It's 116 if that math is correct. So 116.

Let's say it's around 120 regular. season games. He won three playoff series. Cavs first conference finals without LeBron since I was in eighth grade in the 90s. A long time ago. Yeah. Not ideal that it would have to be news today that he was not getting fired. That's correct. And I think that sort of sums up where the Cavs season ended, which is they can't be like upset, but it's, stop short of being satisfied. And that leaves them in an interesting position going forward. Yes, I would agree.

And I will refer back to the tweet that Dan Gilbert sent out after the game last night. We took a step ahead this spring, but we are nowhere near where we need to be. Can't thank the fans enough for their support this year. We will dig it all summer and do everything we possibly can to take the next step. We will grind until we get there. We congratulated the Knicks. Now, the calves are nowhere near where they need to be, and you're going to do everything they possibly can to take the next step.

So, Brian, you've been around the NBA for a long time. The calves have chosen to keep their head coach, by extension, keep their front office. And I think you would agree that they're not going to trade Donovan Mitchell, and they're going to resign in some form or fashion, James Hart. So if the calves are nowhere near where they need to be, be, and they're going to grind all summer to get there, to me, that very obviously says Evan Woli will not be on the Cavs next season, or at least that he is not going to be on the calves if they do anything to the roster, because that is the one lever they have to really pull

to actually fundamentally change the team and truly get the player that is better than Donovan Mitchell on the roster, because that is inherently the problem the Cavs at. When the Cavs made the Donovan Mitchell trade, the idea was Evan Mowdly would ascend and become the best player by about now. Donovan Mitchell would be a perfect second player with him. Or Donovan Mitchell would be good enough, right? And we're now four years into the experiment, and neither of those things has happened.

So you're the veteran Cavs Watcher, obviously, but that is my pretty clear read of where I think sit. Yeah, so they have two pathways, and let me acknowledge the two pathways. Although Dan Gilbert's tweet, if we take it at face value, which I don't think we shouldn't. I think we should take it at face value. That's a better way to say it. They could, you know, Kenny Atkinson came up and basically made the pitch, and it was kind of half-hearted.

And quite frankly, Kenny Atkinson, public appearances in the last 10 days have been a little rough. So, but I would think we should acknowledge that he said that, you know, he thinks they should bring the team back. put him through a training camp because a big chunk of the team changed mid-season, especially James Harden, and that's definitely a shock to the system. And he thinks that they can be successful next year. And, you know, I think we should point out that the Knicks reached a conference finals last year, changed their coach, but basically held their roster intact. Well, but hold on. Hold on.

The Knicks changed their coach. Right. The Knicks didn't run back with the same group. The Knicks also upset the Celtics last year and we're pretty impressive, you know. Correct. But again, the Knicks changed their head coach. Correct. They bet that a change in head coach would change the formula.

It wasn't. We're going to run back with the exact same thing. That's correct. And we're going to be better. Like it would have been understandable if the Knicks had done that last year, just like it's understandable that the Cavs brought back Kenny Ackinson. But the Cavs were not good enough this year. their playoff run was, yes, they got to the conference finals,

but it was not an impressive run to the conference finals. They wheezed their way there, past two flawed teams. And again, like you said, Dan Gilbert. The Knicks playoff run was more impressive last year. It was easier to sell the idea of that. And the conference finals were competitive. It was seven games. Well, that's what I mean.

It was six games. The exact inverse. It was six games. But it was a long competitive series. and, you know, like, again, this one was not. This was not. All right. So let me get to where you're going.

So I just have to acknowledge that one pathway of status quo. I know that, like, steam comes out of people's ears in Cleveland. I was saying this today on Cleveland media. They do not want to even discuss that. But Kenny Atkinson put it out there. And I know talking to some people in and around the organization that that is on the table. I don't think that's the way they're going to go. But it's not good reporting for me to tell you that that's not on the table because it is.

For sure. All right. You mentioned Evan Mowbley. When the Cavs traded 26-year-old Darius Garland for 36-year-old James Hardin, they crossed a Rubicon, as we've discussed on this podcast, that they know, they, it was like when Nixon took the U.S. off the gold standard. The calves took themselves. That was not the reference you should have done on the podcast there, Pally. I missed McMahon. It's too bad McMahon's not here for that.

They went off the Mowbly standard and onto the Mitchell standard. Okay. And so that's a half measure. And so the question is, will they go full measure? And I don't think it only has to be Evan Mobley. I think they could examine Max Struce and Jared Allen as- No, they can't. Not really.

Because again, the fundamental problem, well, let's just be, let's have a real conversation about the calves, right? The calves can do lots of things, right? Sure, the calves can do all sorts of different paths, like in the abstract. But the reality is, is very clear. Donovan Mitchell is not good enough to be the number one guy on a team to get to the end. He's a great player, but he's proven over time with both Utah and now Cleveland to not be that good, which again, there's only a couple guys in the league who were that good. That's not a crime.

Evan Mobley was supposed to be a guy who could potentially ascend to be that level of player. It's only year five. I guess you can't rule out the chance of that happening, but I think it's safe to say it's unlikely Evan Moby's going to become that kind of player. So to me, it's either the Cavs run it back with this group and hope that despite all the available

evidence that we have, things are going to completely change or they look in the mirror and say, okay, if we're really committing to the Donovan Mitchell timeline, which they're going to re-sign Donovan Mitchell or they're going to try to, and Donovan has said he wants to stay there, and they already made, to your point,

Adairus Carla for James Harden trade, which is a win now trade, if you can use Evan Mobley to get a player that's better than Donovan Mitchell right now, this is your window. James Hardin's 37 or going to be 37. It's not like he's 32 or 27. You know, Donovan Mitchell is across 30. Like, this is the time to win is right now, not in three years. Right.

So, okay. But I'm just, again, I just want to acknowledge before all the Cavs fans, think you've got Evan Moby traded, that there is another path that they could look, you know, to trade Max Drews who's going into the last year at 17 million. Are any of those trades going to make the cabs good enough? No, but I'm reporting the way the system goes. I'm not saying what they should do. You're saying what they should do, and that's fine. No, I'm going off the, I'm going off of the evidence of what Dan Gilbert said, which as you said, I think it's fair to take at least some stock in what Dan Gilbert.

said and the calves and let's go off actions over words. The actions of the calves in February were that the window is now. Correct. Not in three or four years. So again, and I'm not saying trade Evan Mobley for a bag of beans. Evan Moby's a really good player. But again, the statement is you in theory either need to have Donovan Mitchell be good enough or you need to get a player that's better than Donovan Mitchell, so he's the second best player, which he obviously is good enough to do that. Okay, a few housekeeping items. Evan Mowby has four years and $220 million left on his contract. He makes $50 million next year. So keep that in mind. James Harden has a $42 million player

option, but it's not really a player option. It's a strange contract. It was difficult for me to sort of go over this with some of the folks at ESPN the last day. It's a player option. He technically controls it. But if he opts it, in only 13 million of it is guaranteed. I say only, like, that's a small amount. But, you know, and that, and the clippers were not prepared to pick that up or guarantee him a new contract. That's why he ended up getting traded.

What is going to happen is that he is going to opt out of that contract, become a free agent. The cabs are very likely going to sign him to a new multi-year deal where he gets more guaranteed money. Like I said, he's guaranteed right now about 30 million. I'm sorry, he's guaranteed 13 million. Right. He's going to be a cab on a multi-year deal. Right.

But let me tell you the reason why. The point is they bring his number down and then they dip under the second apron. And by dipping under the second apron, they open themselves up to be able to make more complex traits. Now, you say Evan Mowgli, you think about what they could do with them. The first name that comes to mind is Yannis. Evan Moby will turn 25 in the offseason. and Janus, I believe, is 31. Evan Mowby has had a couple of injury things.

He had knee surgery a couple years ago, but has been healthier than Janus over the last few years, obviously younger. But as somebody in Cleveland told me this week, the Cavs drafted Evan Mowby to hopefully become Janus. Would they pass on the opportunity to actually trade for Janus? That's the kind of trade we're talking about. I'm not saying trade Evan Moby for draft.

picks or trade Evan Moby for role players or whatever. That's not the move. If you're really looking at where the calves are at, again, use the Knicks as an example. What did the Knicks do? The Knicks fired their coach to try to get better. Go back a couple of years ago when the Celtics lost in the playoffs, right? What did they do? They went and got Drew Holiday.

They went and got Chris Asporzingis, right? What did the Thunder do? The Thunder went and got Isaiah Hardinstein and Alex Caruso. They already had Shea. But again, getting another role player on this Cavs team is not going to be the thing that makes a difference. So if you're going to make a real significant change, it's got to be, and they already passed on changing the coach, and you're keeping Donovan Mitchell and you're keeping James Hardin, there's only really one change left to make. Right.

And let me just say, like, I don't know if the Cavs could have beaten the Celtics this year. They were on the opposite side of the draw, and Tatum got hurt. They obviously were not in the same class as the Knicks. And I don't know where, you know, they barely beat the Raptors without quickly and Ingram for most of the series. And they barely beat the Pistons. Yes, but they did beat them. They did. And I don't know where they were younger and should get better.

And I don't know where they would rank against the reinvigorated Pacers who they couldn't be last year. The Easter's going to be deeper next year. So the question I have for you is, if they come with Evan Mobile, And they have a couple of other assets. You know, they have Max Drew's, like I said, $17 million expiring contract. That's not really an asset. Their assets are their draft picks, and I would say Jalen Tyson. They're a pretty interesting second year wing.

That's, I'd say, what their assets are. They have two first round picks they can trade, but one of them is this year's pick, which is 29th, which is not an attractive piece. But it's still a first round pick. So in there... I think they have an extra one to trade once they get to the draft, too, right? because of the new league year? Yeah, but they're 20, whatever, 30, whatever pick is frozen because they were...

Oh, that's right. That's right. They got a frozen pick. forgot about that. Yeah. That's right. So they have two that they can trade, but I think it's... Don't hold me to this, but I think it's 31 they can trade.

Yeah, that's right. And they can trade 26 after the draft. Yeah. All right. So let me ask you, do you think Evan Mobley and, you know, maybe you could add a pick and Maybe you could add another player, I don't know. Is that enough to get the Bucks interested in doing it? I think it's enough, yeah.

I think it's enough. I think, you know, Evan Mowgli is a super interesting young player who would have a lot of value. And I think, you know, whether the Bucks want to keep them, build around them, or if they want to flip them again, I think he could, you know, I would say if you're a team in Milwaukee's position, you go back and look at what the Oklahoma City Thunder did in the wake of the Paul George trade, right? They made about, I think it was either that summer, that offseason or the next one. They made about 12 trades and 12 days, right? It just kept accumulating assets. And for a team like Milwaukee, that's what you need to do. And they could turn Evan Mobley into a ton of stuff from somebody else.

Because Evan Mobley, even though he's not as good as Janus, he probably has more homes than Yonis for a variety of reasons. So I do think, I do think that that's a winning package to get Yonis. If they, decide to do it. And, you know, I would understand if they didn't. But again, I'm just going by the logic path of what Dan Gilbert said and knowing how the calves operate. And like Dan Gilbert has never been somebody who's satisfied with just having a nice team. Like for whatever you want to say about Dan Gilbert, he's always spent money. He's always invested resources. He's always wanted to try to win at the highest level. When the cows won the championship in 2016, their slogan was all in. And it was Dan Gilbert who

coined the slogan. Yeah. Well, and again, there was one team this year that was in the second apron. He was Cleveland Cavaliers, right? You're not in the second apron if you're hoping to be an okay team. Like, this team was supposed to be good enough. And they were very clearly,

if you just want to empirically and objectively look at the Cavs season, the Cavs were not good enough, right? They weren't really close to being good enough. So the question is, Do you really think just running it back with 37-year-old James Hardin is going to lead to some dramatically better results? Well, let's be honest, James Hardin is not exactly dynamite in the playoffs,

and even if you're talking about him being your third or fourth player. One of your big, you know, if you're trading mobile, you're going to want to train him for some defense because the Cav's big problem is perimeter defense. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Staples Preferred Business Membership, built for busy business owners, because you've got bigger things to think about. With Staples Preferred, get free delivery, no minimums.

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Okay. Now I want to discuss the LeBron James aspect of this. Hmm. See again? Yeah. So this is the name on everyone's lips in Cleveland. they naturally believe that he is a savior for them, even at age 41. Why not?

Yeah. Now, first off, I just want to say that even if they could get LeBron James for the minimum, and I want to be very clear in the language, but let's just say for the sake of argument, they could get LeBron James essentially for free. That's not solving all of their problems, because LeBron is no longer a good defensive player night in and night out, and this team's one of its biggest problems is his defense.

Obviously, the attacking of Hardin and the attacking of Mitchell and what happened in this series would not be solved by signing LeBron. That is correct. And so whatever their solution attempt will be, whether it's trading for Janus or it's making another trade, defense has got to be part of the thought process. So I don't think the Cavs – No, go ahead. I don't think the Cavs all in move here can be going to get LeBron. Fundamentally, I just don't know if you're winning anything with James Harder. in Donovan Mitchell anyway

because of the severe limitations that's going to cause for you defensively. And that, that I think is really more than anything else. Like, it's the position the calves are in now, so I get it. But like,

this was the question I had about this trade going all the way back to the beginning. And frankly, it was just a different version of the same problem of having Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, right? Like, having two guards like that

that aren't really going to play defense, it makes it just extraordinarily difficult to build a good enough Now you have Jared Allen and Evan Mowby. They're excellent defensive players. That was sort of the construct of what the Cavs thought would work. But, you know, if you look at the Knicks, right, they've got three elite perimeter defenders next to Jalen Brunson. You look at the Thunder.

They've got a million elite perimeter defenders. You look at the Spurs. They've got all sorts of really good perimeter defenders, right? Like, you look at the Celtics. They've had a lot of really good, they have a lot of really good versatile perimeter defenders. Like to win at the highest level in the playoffs, it's very hard to win with one-way guards. and they have two of them. Right.

And LeBron's a two-way perimeter player. The Bronn at this point is on a two-way player either. Okay. Now, let's go down the path that LeBron must go down here in the next few weeks. Number one, he has to decide whether or not he wants to play again. Okay. It looks like he's probably going to, but he has not said that either publicly nor the people that I talk to. Okay.

Number two, his discussion has to be with the Lakers about whether he's going to continue with them. And I will just tell you until you, until you, You hear. The only pause on that. Isn't the first part of that? Do the Lakers want to continue with LeBron? Exactly. I agree.

But I mean, I'm just saying they're the ones sort of with the, I think, the first lever on that. Yes. And from. I'm not saying they don't, to be clear, for aggregators. But I think, you know, they're the ones with the giant cap hold on their books. I'll give the aggregator something right now. Okay. Oh, window, giving the aggregators things.

Okay. Let me just say before I say that. Got the motions up. it's going to be good. Before I say that, let me just say that you have to understand that, you know, the LeBron has to work out his future with the Lakers first before any other future happens, okay? And from what I am told, the LeBron side is waiting for the Lakers to come to LeBron. Okay? They're not going to go to the Lakers and say, we would like, just like last year, they did not go to the Lakers. and say, we would like a contract extension, please.

The LeBron side, from what I am told, would like the Lakers to come and say, LeBron, here is our plan for you. Here's what we were offering. And if they're offering less than the max, here's why. Because we're going to use this cap space to sign these players. And this is where you slot in. Can I interject for a second to ask you a question about that? this? Yeah. Why would they do that to LeBron's side? Why would that be the position? I don't know.

This is what I'm told. No, I'm asking your opinion. Why would that be the position? I'm not saying you have the answer. I think everything that's going to happen between now and the draft, no matter what you hear and no matter what LeBron might say on his podcast or on social media or wherever in any interview, I think all of it's negotiating. Of course. Okay. LeBron is negotiating, unconventionally, which he's known to do. I would agree. So, by the way, I don't think that's controversial. I don't think the player is saying they're waiting to hear from the team is a, like,

I don't think that's an aggressive move. I don't think it is either. I do think, however, that the LeBron side, I think, is in a spot they've really never been in before, right, where they don't necessarily control the situation. And they frankly have always controlled the situation going back to when LeBron is probably in, what, seventh grade? Well, he's going to be unrestricted. So they have some control, but in terms of the salary, the Lakers do control what they're going to offer.

They have control over the fact that LeBron could choose to just walk and play elsewhere for the minimum or an exception. But in order for LeBron to get paid somewhere where he would, in theory, want to be, they need to work with the Lakers, whether it's to play with the Lakers, whether it's to play with the Lakers. Now, if he's willing to just take the minimum, sure, it doesn't matter. He can just decide in August and do whatever he wants. That'll be fine. but if he wants any more than that, it's going to require some workarounds. LeBron has a $58 million cap hold,

and a cap hold is a complicated thing, and I don't want to go too far into it. Just know that the Lakers don't actually have cap space until they decide what's going to happen with LeBron. And what I mean by that is, they agree to a contract with them for whatever the number is, whether the number is $58 million or the number is $8 million. Or they say, LeBron, you and us,

We're moving on from each other, and they renounce his rights. But the Lakers have to deal with LeBron before they do their other business. Okay. And even if they end up, even if LeBron says to them, hey, I just don't know where my body is going to be yet. And so, like, I can't make this decision in June. The Lakers are probably going to have to say, we totally respect you. We're going to have to renounce your rights then because, and we can revisit you coming back on us, on a smaller contract, but we can't sit here and wait until August or even July 10th,

they got to know around the draft. And that's where it's different than it's ever been before, because in the past, LeBron had the ability to say, I'm going to decide in August and everybody would wait. Everybody would wait until August 10th or August 15th or July 15th or July 20th. They waited until July 9th or 10th. Okay. Right. Exactly.

Whatever the date. Now, so these are very, what we've just laid out there are very delicate, nuanced, complex, negotiation-filled days and weeks. If, and I can't underline this more for the aggregators who botched it again today with me. Listen close. If- Don't upset our guy. If all of that leads to LeBron's saying, I'm ready to move on.

And it's not going to be with the Lakers. And again, that's past whether he wants to play or not. That's past any negotiation with the Lakers. That's past whatever back and forth they have. If all of those things happen and LeBron entertains other teams, okay, then LeBron must entertain what he's willing to play for. Is he only willing to go where he can be signed and traded so that he would have substantial earnings, you know, that he would not play for $15 million or $6 million or $3 million, which is the minimum, $3.6 million. Does he going to want something else? And if that fails, let's say that, you know, he says to Lakers, okay, let's work on a sign and trade.

And, you know, they can't do that. Then if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if he's willing to play for the minimum, okay, then, then you bring in the concept of, well, he could go to the Warriors or he could go to the heat or he'd go to the calves, okay? Because I'm seeing out there a preponderance of just to back up one second. He could go sign with those teams for something other than the minimum. They have exceptions where they could sign him on those teams. Correct. But yeah. Just to be clear.

Basically, when we say he could sign for an exception, there's a mid-level exception and the veteran player exception, you know, signing a guy to a minimum. Well, and there's the tax mid-level. He could sign for about $15 million, about $6 million or the minimum. Those are really the options, for the most part. The teams that he's going to have interest in, like a team like the Warriors, they don't have the mid-level. They don't have 15.

I mean, I think, double check. I think they do. Yeah, they do. But then if they use that, they'd be hard caps and I don't even know if they could receive. Well, but they're, I mean, but I'm just saying, the Warriors could do that. All right. I'm just saying, there's a, like, there's a lot of ifs that have to be, um, checked.

It's an extraordinarily complicated deal for him to get paid real money other than with the Lakers. And frankly, it's complicated for them, him to get paid real money with the Lakers. Okay. And I hear people then say, when I say to them, well, you know, the calves can't do much right now. And by the way, maybe the calves make four trades in the next six weeks and they all of a sudden have $25 million in cap space. Well, but they're not going to have $25 million in cap space. Okay, but just. But hold on. Don't even give people that path because they're not going to happen. Okay, but I'm just saying like today they have $3 million they give them. That's what they have today. They could have more later. But today, that's what they have. have. Sure. Okay. And I was just going to say, and again, this is nuance. I'm not saying LeBron won't play for the minimum, ever, because this is what happened today. I said, you know, the Cavs can only give LeBron three million, and I haven't heard that LeBron's willing to play

for three million in aggregation. LeBron will not take less money. No, that is not what I said. I said, I haven't heard it. I said, I haven't heard that. That's right. So we have, there's just a progression that has to happen. And by the way, that progression could happen. Because what I'm, I tell people in Cleveland, well, the Cavs can only offer three million. And they're like, well, he's a billionaire. And I'm like, okay, I agree with that. I'm not spending his money. No. The pathway for the Cavs to improve most likely is going to be a trade and to improve massively as most likely going to be an Evan Mobley trade. And they're not trading Evan Mobley for LeBron James. That's correct. Okay. We're training for a player that's today better than Donovan Mitchell. And if they can't do that, Evan Mobley will be on

the team. And maybe they won't be able to do that. To be clear, I'm not guaranteeing that's going to happen. But again, if you look at all the recent teams that have gone on to win the title, they've all made significant moves to get better, whether it's adding Aaron Gordon. And I'm not even sure if I were the calves, I would trade Jared Allen for LeBron because this is something that the Laker followers have suggested, oh, just sign and trade LeBron for Jared Allen. Jared Allen makes 28 million like that could be a representative salary for LeBron. I better be getting a first round pick or two if I'm the Cavs in that deal. I'm not sure I would, I'm not doing that.

Like what I would say to LeBron if I were the Cavs is LeBron, we've got three million for you. That's what we have. Now, and maybe they make a deal, maybe they make a mobility deal or maybe they make the hardened deal and maybe they make a strew's deal. Maybe they get to where they have the taxpayer mid-level, which is $6 million. maybe they say LeBron, we have $6 million for you. Well, here's just the real deal of it.

Like, at the end of the day, James Hardin is not as good as LeBron, even probably right now. But he does basically what LeBron is going to do for you, more or less. Like, so if you have James Hardin, who at 37 is not playing much defense and he never did, and you have LeBron James, who this year will be 42 years old, to be the oldest player in the league by a couple of years. Like, Andy O'Donovan Mitchell, like, again, to your point, he is not, Like, LeBron is still a great player. But for the roster the Cavaliers have, he's not the solve to all their problems.

And let me just say one last thing. Obviously, Hardin had an up and down playoffs. He actually did have plenty of... That's what's happened for the last 14 years in a row. And I interacted with people in Cleveland who were like, just cut him, get his money off of the books, move on. Number one, they can't do. that because there was an understanding when they traded for him, they were going to take care of them. Otherwise, he wouldn't wait his no trade clause. But here's one thing that's important.

And, you know, let's say the Cavs did do that. It's not like they would have the 40 million that they could then go spent. Yeah, it's not, it's not the NFL salary cap where it's a hard cap and the money just returned. They're so far over the cap that if they said goodbye to James Hardin, they would then not have the functional ability to replace him. They would just lose a good player. They would lose a good player and they would lose an asset. That's right. So whatever anybody wants to say,

wanted to get off their takes on James Hardin, he is going to be resigning with the guys. Well, and also, James Hardin was not brought to the Cavs to be the guy to push them to the NBA finals. He was supposed to be an accentuating piece to the guy who was supposed to push him to the NBA finals. Just like he was with Kuwait Finals. Tyler with the Clippers, just like he was with Joel and Bede with the Sixers, right?

And Durant and Kyrie as well. Yes. Well, yes, to go even farther back. But like the last couple teams, it's all been the same thing, right? And at the end of the day, the same problem has existed in all those places. The best player was not good enough. And at the end of the day, Donovan Mitchell was not good enough. And that's where you get back to the question the Cavs have about their roster and why we're talking about all this stuff to begin with. Okay, that was an extended time there in Cavs Corner.

McMahon's back. Oh, yes. Brian had to get through his feelings, McMahon. I'm going to miss Cavs Corner. It'll be back. Caves Corner is going to be back at the Aussies. It's going to be a busy office season. I have important data.

Important data. The distance between Gate F-15 and Gate B-6 and Minneapolis Airports, 1.1 miles and 1.8 kilometers. I was actually excited for you to talk nerdy to us. Did you get a ride in a Porsche over there? No. No, I walked it. travel whining. It says it's a 15-minute brisk walk,

but you guys know I don't walk briskly. No, you don't. How long of a shuffle? How long of a shuffle is it? Yeah, it was longer than 20 minutes. Probably 26 minutes it took me. I might have stopped on the way once or twice. It was a brisk shuffle.

Yeah, all right. So just, you know, props to me. And then I did this podcast. Props to window. Props to window for making it at home. Right. Got up. First class seats.

Went to bed. at one something in the morning after Scott Van Peldon last night's podcast. Oh. Got up at five to do get up. Did NBA today. Okay. 1.8 kilometers between gates. Yeah, real line work.

Then get back here and then now we're doing this again. Did you nap on the plane? We need the full windy sleep update. You know what? Seriously, like McCain hit that three with like, like, put him up like, I was watching the game. And McCain hit that like last three to put them up like, I don't, It was double digits.

It was like, I don't know how much time was left, like four, three minutes maybe. During the timeout, I fell asleep and I woke back up and the game was over. And I was like, well, I guess the Thunder won. You missed Plumley's minutes, but not much else. Okay, well, I got to go back and watch them. All right. Thank you so much, our producers for staying up so late overnight to put this together. Mark, Miles Tucker, and of course, Jackson.

Thank you to McMahon and Bontems. Thank you for watching and listening to the Hague Collective. We'll talk to you later this week. Adios amigos.