Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Mike Breen Talks Why The Knicks Have Captivated NYC + Major Offseason Changes Coming In Western Conference

Episode Date: June 19, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps, Tim MacMahon and special guest lead ESPN NBA broadcaster Mike Breen to talk about what this magical Knicks run meant to the city, the incredible passion of the fanbase and how this team came together to win a title. Then, the guys run through some Western Conference teams with big decisions looming this offseason including if it is time for the Clippers to part ways with Kawhi, how some salary concerns could create issues for the Thunder and if the Warriors should trade their pick for a key player. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We talk about the MBA, which we're doing. Very happily with a special guest, but first, say hello for New York City to Tim Bont-Thames and Baner from Dallas, Texas. Howdy, partners? Hello, everybody. And joining us from New York, where he's somehow still got a voice. You know, number one, the voice of ESPN and ABC, but also the voice of the New York Knicks on MSG, Mike Breen. Hello, Mike. Gentlemen, it's an honor to be on with you.

A little intimidating because it's one against three, three of the most knowledgeable and opinionated NBA analysts in the business. But, no, seriously, love being with you guys. Well, you're like Janet Brunson, though. You see three and you just manipulate it and just kind of slid her a little shoulder here, you know, a pivot, a spin. Next thing you know, you're hitting a fade away over all of us. Yeah, I'd throw out a hip doing that right now.

So this is always one of my favorite times of the year, Mike, because one of the things that we get to do in our jobs occasionally is to be able to follow the team to the championship and be on the team when they win the championship. And sometimes, like, depending on whether we're with one conference finals or the other, you may not see the team as much. And sometimes individually you may have connections to one team or the other. But typically, you know, the people like us have been on some journey.

alongside these teams. And so I love it when I see, especially teams who've won it for the first time. I love it watching them celebrate. I love every second of it. I encourage it. But this has got to have a special meaning for you for all the time you spend around this organization for so long. No question. I couldn't agree with you more, though.

It's my favorite time is when the team clinches the championship. And you see all these incredible athletes, these dedicated young men turn into little boys. and the way they act and the pure joy, knowing that what they just did was worth all the sacrifice and all the work, and knowing what they just did is going to be with them together for the rest of their lives. I get emotional every year with it.

But you're right this year, because not only was it the team and the coaching staff, but broadcasting Nick Games for the last 33, 34 years, so many people in the organization. And just as important in this case for me, because I know so many of them, the fans, the fans that have invested so much of their life into this team, emotionally, financially, time-wise,

and that they care so much after all the years, even after all the difficult years, where they just never left. And here they get their moment. They get their time to feel something they, many of them, myself included, wasn't sure if we were ever going to get a chance to feel. So this one was obviously,

If I can take my national hat off for a minute, this one was very, very special. The Knicks fans were a phenomenon. Like, it's one thing to take over the building in Philly, which, you know, bond temps like drives back and forth. Like, I'm dropping the kids off at freaking their school or something. But the game five takeover in San Antonio, when the game is over and all the Spurs fans left

and the building was still well over half full, like the upper decks were damn near complacent. packed like that trophy ceremony. There were wars throughout that for, I mean, I thought it was like 60% full. The Knicks fans are a unique beast. And that was every round. So they clinch every series on the road. And every one of those clinching games, starting in Atlanta, then going to Philly, then Cleveland, and as you mentioned, San Antonio, the amount of Nick fans in the building, it almost did feel like a home game.

Listen, the players' toughness and resilience is what got them there. But there's no doubt in my mind the fans helped them on the road. And those clinching games, you know, the first three certainly, were so dominant that it's, there's no question that had an impact on them. And one of the sites I've never seen before was when they won the comeback game in game four, nobody left the building. It was like an hour later. This is the biggest. Okay, so this is one of the great memories I've ever seen at a finals game. How many finals games have you been?

I've been to... 117. I saw Dave Freed say that. Is that what it was? Of course, Dave Freed knows. You got Dave Freed, got some social media exposure this week. I was very happy about that. Dave Freed is the stats guy who sits alongside Mike for every game for decades.

Obviously, Mike's very long-time statistician. I mean, he'd recognize him if you saw. If I interrupt for a moment, he not only works for me, he works. Ion Eagle in the NFL. He works Bob with shoes and in college football. He works Gary Cohen on the Mets. Now his sons with Noah Eagle. Right.

And he makes every play-by-play guy that he works with better. We're all better because he's sitting next to us. Unlike most of Bond tips, that was a quality interruption. Okay. But anyway, however many games any of us have been to, I've never experienced like it was in that arena after game four. And the players are gone. Jalen, if any player dared

stay on that court. Jalen would have grabbed him by his ear and pulled them off. The players are gone. There's no stage. There's no trophy. There's no confetti. But nobody wanted to leave. Everybody wanted to collectively talk about what they had just witnessed. I mean, obviously we've seen crazy games.

We've seen special things happen in arenas. Mike, I've never seen anything like that. And you know what was wonderful about it? The MSG security let them stay. It was unexpected. The music was pumping. They were singing. Or dance and it was a party. Right.

It certainly was. And just again, it shows you the caring factor. And the number one reason for that is clearly this team has captured the hearts of so many. But right behind it is the fact that it's been so long and not just so long, but some of the years have been so painful. So everybody's thing, all this, it was all so worth it. That's what they were all saying. Yeah. I mean, you've experienced the existential feeling of doom that hung over that place so many times.

of people expecting the bad thing to happen. And then that was obviously the ultimate example of it not. But to that point, I mean, you grew up, stone's throw from the garden, and I know thought about calling a championship game as a kid, and you thought about it for decades, wait to see if it would happen. What was, I know it was a close game, so you didn't have as much time to maybe think about it as you would have. It was like the 40-point routes in the prior couple rounds.

But what was the final minute or so in the aftermath of the game five like for you after waiting for a long time to do that. Yeah, Tim, the beauty of it was, and I'm so glad it happened this way, is that you didn't have any time. It wasn't until the final possession until the free throws made it out of reach. So you're just concentrating on the job,

and that was important to me to do it that way. And plus, you over to the people who work with you, your analyst, your producers, your directors, all the people who work, you've got to stay professional through it. So I didn't get much of a chance to think too much, which was a good thing. And afterward, once the call went out and you watched the start of celebration,

then it hits you a little bit like, wow, this actually really did happen. And that, you know, it's because you guys, the same thing. You see the amount of work that goes into this. It's really hard to win an NBA title. It's really hard. Then you add the pressure of trying to end this 53-year drought. You had the pressure of New York. It's just a difficult thing.

And just the emotions come pouring out. For me, like one of the first things I thought of was my family. Like my kids, since they were little, I introduced them to basketball. I hope they acquired the love of the game because I wanted to be able to share that with them. And it's funny, like today, today I went for a run and we live now very close to two previous homes that we lived in. And, of course, every time we moved into a place, I put up a rim and put up a basket on the drive, way. And the two homes that I ran by, the basket's still up there. And that hit me for some reason today. That hit me because I remember the kids coming out there and shooting and trying

to get them to acquire a love for the game. So for me, for my kids to be so excited, that was a big moment for me. Yeah, those rims had never seen a next championship, is what you're saying. No, no, no, no. This next team, you go back to January. you know, start on New Year's Eve, they lost nine of 11, Mike. And the last one of those losses was to the tanking Dallas Mavericks. It's actually the only time all season long. They had a bigger halftime deficit than the one that they came back from to win game four of the finals.

So, you know, Mike Brown has talked about like he's glad they had that adversity and kind of the opportunity that came with adversity to work through things and all that. But when did you actually look at this team and think this team had a real chance to win a championship this season? Because it wasn't in January. Yeah, Tim, I'll go even one further. March 31st. I think that was a date. They lose in Houston.

They lost three in a row in the row. It had a horrible road trip. After the game, Josh Hart, who always had such a great pulse on the team and still does, he said, we're trending in the wrong direction. were not heading the right way. This is less than two weeks left in the regular season, a team that has aspirations. So, you know, they had an uneven season.

There were stretches where you wondered, is this team even as good as last year's team? But they also had stretches, whether it's the NBA Cup, and after that nine-game losing streak, where you saw they were clearly better than last year's team and had a chance. I never doubted that they had a chance

to win the Eastern Conference. I always thought there was just as good as anyone, even Detroit, and even though Detroit hammered them during the regular season, it's a battle-tested playoff team, but it was always the concern, OKC, San Antonio, Denver, who was going to make it in there. But that's what made it, I think that's what made the ride. Unexpected is the wrong word,

but because of the uneven season, it made it seem like, wow, and they just kept getting better and better as it went on. That's what made it so different. I think it's fair to call it unexpected, Mike. They went 15 and 1 to end the playoffs and had the best point differential ever over that over a stretch. I think it's okay. Yes, okay. When they had the best point differential over whatever the span end up being 12 or 13 games, whatever,

not just an NBA playoff history, but in NBA history, yeah, I don't think anybody saw that coming. No, and you know what impressed me so much was those clinching games. So Atlanta, game six, they've got game seven at home in their pocket. Philadelphia, game four, they've got game. five in their pocket. Same thing with Cleveland. They did not waste any time. There was no way. They had no interest in clinching at home. They had interest in clinching that night

and not only did they clinch, but they clinched in such a dominant factor that the games were over. In the third quarter, the games were over. And that showed me where they were mentally. And as you guys know, as much talent as you have, the playoffs is such a mental

game and they were in just a perfect mental place. And that's Captain Clutch. I mean, Jaylon Brunce, we talked about it. his combination of mental toughness, even keel and killer instinct is unique. And Mike, the franchise changed when they signed Jalen Brunson. And it was not a contract that was like,

you know, favorably received at the time. Like they were criticized for it. And everybody, not everybody, but the majority of people felt they overpaid for them. Yeah, what was your nickname at the time?

And, you know, how have you seen that whole thing develop. Well, we did a couple of Dallas games when Donchich was hurt in that playoff run when he had those brilliant games. I think 41 was the most he had in one. 41 and 31 and 31. Yeah. And I remember Jeff Angundia, Mark Jackson, who I was working with at the time, they were like, whoa, this guy, let's see what he's like when he's the main man. I mean, it was impossible to tell as long as Luca and him were teammates. So you had a vision there, but never expected this.

And part of it is because, you know, how do we measure a player's mental toughness? How do we measure a player's will? It's impossible. We don't have shooting percentage and stuff to do that. So you don't know until you see them go through it. And I remember one time after watching him for a couple of years, I think it was last year. It was the first time I compared his mental toughness to Kobe and I got killed for it. Like it was blasphemy.

And it is blasphemy in some ways. But now that you've seen him and the year that he went through this year in terms of of individual player. It's one of the great seasons I've seen. I thought Josh Hart had a great line. It was at some point during the finals. He said he's still underrated. And we've all underrated him for a long time.

And it's hard to underrate him now because his playoff numbers and what he did in this run is up there with the greatest who have ever played the game. And Josh didn't know this at the time. And I mean, I know that this is just meant for headlines. But whatever. But the day after the finals, the Knicks were installed as the fourth favorite to repeat. I mean, just in case, like, I would put that on these screens at the facility in Westchester when the guys come in. Because just like, just in case you thought that the Knicks had arrived, like, okay, it's one thing to say, well, maybe the best, you know, the team with the best record had an injury.

They're fourth. They're fourth, Mike. Well, Jalen, one of his great strengths is if he has a bad game, he can put it behind him. If he has a good game, he can put it behind him and does. Forgets what he did in the previous game. And I have a feeling he's had this unbelievable season. He'll put it behind him and he'll be ready to go and compete at the same level with the same hunger, with the same mental toughness as he did this year.

I agree with that. I hope he takes at least a couple weeks to Joy. Well, if you've watched some of the appearances, I think. they're enjoying their A couple of weeks. The fascinating thing about Brunson is that every year we see situations in the draft where a draft pick gets made or whatever

and instantaneously you see in summer league or you see in the preseason you're like, man, how did this guy fall? Like, it's crazy. All of the systems that are in place there are still guys that get through the trap or through the system. In the case of Brunson,

not only did he fall, but the Mavericks had him for four years. Four years they had him. And think about when he fell. He wasn't like some unknown guy. He was winning national championships at Villanobes. He was a college player in a year. He won two national championships in three years.

Yeah. It's incredible. Back up player. He's a bench player mostly for his first three years in the league. And that's because Donchish was there. Another thing that I think about him sometimes gets not talked about enough. He is so coachable. he was with his father clearly

you hear jay wright talk about him so he and then when you go to the NBA in Dallas and then with with tibs and now with mike brown when your star player is coachable every coach will tell you it makes everything so much better jeff vengunny used to talk about

the reason he succeeded as coach was Patrick ewing allowed him to coach him and jaylin allows these guys to coach him and that filters down throughout the entire roster. And when that, when that happens, it just brings about uniformity with the coaching staff and the players. And that's what, you know, Mike Brown, he's been criticized for this at times in his coaching career. And yes, he may not have been the first choice to be the replacement for Tibbs. But Mike Brown has, you know, because Mike Brown is never going to walk in a room and command

the room. He's not going to, he's not going to make you think he's Pat Riley. That is not who he is. he did not have a dynamic playing career. His coaching career has had high moments, but there's been low moments. The guy's been fired a number of, I think he's been fired four times, okay? But the one thing that Mike Brown can do is he can collaborate with a star player.

It just has to be a star player that wants to collaborate with them and can work together. And whether or not it was something that was foreseen, Jalen Brunson is a hell of a player to collaborate with because he's got incredible leadership qualities. and, you know, Mike wants his star to take that on. He wants to have his assistant coaches play big roles.

He is, you know, corny and goofy and all that kind of stuff, but he's also very egos. And so I think, against all odds, I think Mike Brown and Jalen Brunson ended up being quite a pairing. He's the most collaborative coach I've ever seen. And as you say, with the players, he not only listens to the players, he not only listens to all of his assistants,

he implements what they say. And then when it happens and it succeeds, he gives them credit. He doesn't take the credit. When things aren't going well, he never says, you know, the assistant coach's idea didn't work well. If Buck stops with me,

I need to be better. He did an incredible job. And, you know, I asked about the mental toughness stuff. How do we measure the greatness of a coach? You know, clearly wins and loss. Is there much more that we can do with that?

Yeah, you can see, all right, they might be losing, but boy, they play hard every night. That's another thing. But it's an everyday thing. Like, does the coach set an atmosphere where they enjoy coming to practice? They feel like the coach is behind them and supports them, whether it's, you know, through an injury, whether it's through yelling at reps after a non-call. There's so many other intangibles that a coach has. And he seems to have that where they seem to love being around each other in the locker room at practice, on the road. And there's no question a coach takes part in that.

And I think his ability to make everybody in the whole organization feel like they were a part of it is a big reason why he had that kind of success with them. You know, it's funny. I remember that road trip you were talking about in late March. I actually saw the middle game of that trip, which was a loss in Oklahoma City. And I believe Mike Brown got two T's during the regular season. They were both against the thunder. And this was one of those, it was a national game. So I got to sit like right behind the bin.

you know, that seat where I'm always like doing this, trying to lean in and hear what the coaches said. By the way, I was on. I watched that game at home. You were on TV more on camera than I'm on you. They said it was much higher rated than normal because of that. But anyways, so Mike Brown goes ballistic on the reps at one point and gets teed up. And then he comes in post-game and he said, you know, we waste way too much energy on the refs tonight. And he basically said, hey, you know, I was like, you all want to pitch at the rest?

Fine. I'll do it with you. I'll get teed up too. But, you know, but his thing was like, I'll get in the fight with you. But then we're also going to talk about, hey, we wasted too much energy on duress. And, you know, I think the relationship with Mike Brown and Brunson was probably pretty smooth and easy. I think the relationship with Kat and Mike Brown really took some trial and air. And I shouldn't say relationship as much as I should say, like the collaboration, you know, how to maximize Kat within.

the framework of that team, I think, did take a while for them to figure out. And it really clicked at the perfect time, you know, midway through that first round playoff series. There's no doubt. But he said it all season long. He said, I'm still learning about this team. You don't learn it right away. Sometimes it clicks quicker.

But with Towns and him trying to wait, Mike Brown wanted to play, it took a heck of a long time. And look in the end result, I didn't see after, I didn't look at the statistics after all the playoff games, the 19, but going into the last game, I think Towns average under 17 points per game. If you would have told me, or most people, that Carl Anthony Towns in the playoff run would average under 17 points per game, the answer would have been, well, did they, or the question, did they get knocked out in the first round or the second round? I was one that thought for them to achieve this, he would have to be the number two guy in a big way, average 25 a game or something close to that. Instead, he averaged that. The rest of his game skyrocketed, and it took a team

to a complete different level. There was the, there's been the clip that's gone around from when you went on Jalen and Josh's pod. I think it was like middle of last season where you talked about the connection they've had with the fans and the sort of the impact this team has had on the fans. I think you would agree that this team has some similarities to at least the team from the 90s with Patrick and those guys. And I think you would also agree that that kind of group resonates here in a different way than maybe

sort of what people would typically think a New York fan base would think would be interested in if they don't live here and be part of being here. Why are, why is this group and why was that an ID's group? Like, why are teams like that, teams that resonate here in a way people might not expect?

Yeah, I'm glad you said that, Tim, because people don't remember that 94 team, the city was electric every night. It was, and with, you know, the whole fan base thought they were going to win. They're up three, two in the finals. But it was, it was electric. Now it's so much different because social media shows us everything that's going on.

I mean, you know, you saw in your neighborhood in your section of the city or whatever, how much, now you can see it everywhere all over New York. So it seems like it's bigger, and it probably is bigger. because that team didn't finish it off. But that whole season was just as big. And this team is, you know, I don't want to be clichéist, but it's the way they carry themselves as players.

It's the way they carry themselves as men. The way they get interviewed, their humility, never being satisfied, always giving credit to each other. You know, when you talk about players, when they ask about their teammate, they love to talk about their teammates. Jalen Brunson leads the way in that. Ask him a question about himself.

He gives the most boring answer if he gives an answer. Ask him about one of his teammates, and you're going to get a great sound bite because that's what they all do. If it's Josh Hart, he's going to talk some smack first. But, you know, like when he came in the press conference room after they clinched, after this guy just had 45 in the elimination game, and he comes in there, he's kind of got a smirk. He says, do I talk my bleep or do I be myself?

And everybody's like, talk you? you know, talk your talk. And he was up there and he was same old. It's funny, Rick Brunson once told me, he didn't get that for me. That's Jay Wright program. Yeah, he's, and what he's done too is he has, he's given birth to so many of this younger generation

who will be fans of him, fans of the Knicks and fans of NBA basketball for the rest of their lives. You know, there are certain players that do that in their cities. And there's many of them. But when they come in and they carry themselves the way he does and they perform under pressure the way he does, your fans for the rest of your life. And it's such a great thing for the game. Well, Mike, thank you so much for joining us.

You're very busy. I will say other than Dave Freed and the Advanced Scouts, because nobody travels more than the Advanced Scouts. I'm not sure there's somebody involved with the NBA who travels more than you. So I hope you have been getting some time at home at least. Yes, for sure. It's a labor of love of the game a long, long time ago, and I still, I get such joy, especially as you said, Brian at the top, when you see these people and they win a championship every year, it's the most gratifying thing for me to see how important it is to so many people. So I'll always appreciate you guys. Thanks so much. Get some golf in. For sure. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. The 2006 Chevrolete Equinox

awarded the most dependable compact SUV in the U.S. by J.D. Power is designed for your everyday. And with available all-wheel drive, you can handle your to-do list with total confidence. Start your bill at chevrolet.ca. Details at jd.power.com. All right. Thank you so much to Mike Breen.

What a week it's been for Mike Breen. He's seen everything there is to see in pro basketball, except this, I think, is the way to look at it. Okay, so let's take a look back to the NBA off season that we are now 100% focused on now that the Knicks parade is in the books. And I want to talk to you guys about a team that I think is one of the more fascinating teams that could go either way and could end up looking a lot different or not in a couple of weeks' time. And that's the LA Clippers. And for the last six, eight months, every time you say the LA Clippers, people really just think of, well, what's going on with the aspiration case? And we are expecting resolution shortly.

Bontemps isn't that fair to say since Adam Silver. Are we? Are we? Well, I mean, Adam Silver went on the record and said, it's time to wrap it up, boys. He did say that, but I think it depends on what your definition of soon is. I suspect it's not going to be in the next. today. I don't think it's going to be before the draft,

and I suspect it's not going to be before free HC was largely my guess. It's just a guess. I don't know aggregators. I don't know. Use the window thing. I don't know what's happening. But I would guess it's not going to be in the next couple of months.

Well, anyway, the Clippers have lived with that cloud hanging over their head for months now, and at midseason began a significant change to the organization when they traded James Harden for Darius Garland, who's nine years younger. traded a bitziah Zubotch for the for draft picks, which primarily is going to be the prize is going to be the number five pick in this year's draft. And Ben Matherin, who is coming off his fourth season, restricted free agent this year. They got much younger. And here's where I think their future is going to hinge, not hinge, but they're going to show

their hand. They have three guys on their roster who are in their mid to late 30s, who they have a team option on that they can release and not owe a single dollar. That's Brooke Lopez, Bogdan Bogdanovich, and Nicholas Batum. Between the three of them, Bontemps, I think it's like 40 milts. I'll give you the exact dollar amount right now. Between Bogdanovich, Nick Baton, Brooke Lopez, and then, I mean, for those three guys, there's a couple smaller deals, but for those three guys, it's about $30 million. Okay, it's $30 million. They also have Bradley Beal on their books at $6 million coming off that hip injury.

He's got a player option. And Ben Matherin is a restricted free agent that they could wipe away. Yeah, they're going to keep Ben Mather. Well, if they want to maximize their cap space. Well, the point is... If they're trying to maximize their cap space, they would do those other three options. And if they wipe away Ben Matherin, that gets them to about where we're talking about. I think they want to keep Ben Matherin, but let's put that aside.

I think the point is, if they... By the way, what if they... What if Bradley Beal picked up his option and then they waived him? He could be getting paid by two teams. He's not playing for. And at third, when he gets picked up by somebody else. Yeah. But they could pay.

But the point is that they could, if they wanted to, wipe out a whole bunch of guys in their 30s, open up roster space and cap space to sign younger players or trade for younger players. Not a ton of space, though. They'd only probably be able to sign one or two guys. I mean, it would be interesting if they decided to go back. Right. But the point is, is that are they intending to go young or not?

They're sort of, they've begun to go young. And whoever they draft the number five pick is going to be what they hope, I'm sure, is a future cornerstone of the franchise. It's probably going to be a guard. The guys, you know, the second layer of prospects picks five through eight through nine or so are guards. They're different sizes. They're different skill sets, but they're guards. And they've got Darius Garland sitting there.

Obviously, it was their franchise point card for the moment. He's under a maximum contract. So if they draft a point guard, you wonder what happens with Darius Garland. But they also could just for just to, just because to lay out the tier. The rough tier, it seems like right now is those various guards, Keith Wogler, Dary, St. Cuff, Mikkel Brown, Kingston Fleming's, maybe Bradenberg, but he's probably a little lower guard from Arizona. And then Aday Mara, the center from Michigan, seems like he's going to be somewhere. potentially in the top 10, and Nate a MENT, the 610 forward from Tennessee, is going to be somewhere in the top 10. So there are at least a couple potential options on the board that if they decide to go another way they could.

And I think they've had a man in at some point for a workout. So there's at least that possibility. Right. So they also could trade back. You know, that's one of the things. I don't think we're going to see. Trade out. Trade out. They could trade out.

I'm saying if they make a big splash trade, the fifth pick would be primary piece of that. True. And in that case, if they're trading out, they're likely keeping those veterans because if they're trading out, they're probably trading for guys can help them immediately. You would think. What I'm saying is that the clippers are going to, they have a couple of different options where they can go with their organization. And when they make these decisions on these option guys, we're going to have an idea of which way they're leaning, whether they're leaning hard into the young guys or whether that's a partial pivot. And the reason that is interesting more than just like filling, you know, Clipper fan blogs, is that if they are pivoting out of the veteran guys, what does that mean for Kauai Leonard? Kauai Leonard is coming off a season and a half.

He missed, you know, the beginning of the 2024, 25 season recovering from the most recent knee surgery. But ever since he's come back, he's been. awesome. And he is 33, I think, turning 34? He's about to turn 35. 35, okay. So. Turns 35 on June 29th. When you have a player of this level of talent ongoing in the last year of his contract, and he's got this last year at 50 million, no options, you typically would want to extend him. And if you don't want to extend him, you'd think about trading him. This is an

this is an extender trade situation. Now, there's obviously a huge asterisk on that because we got this aspiration investigation. We don't know whether or not he could potentially face some sort of sanction. I will just point out that this is frequently compared to the Joe Smith situation from 25 years ago. Joe Smith was not personally punished. His contract was voided, but it was a underweight, it was an undervalue contract. That was the whole point. He wasn't suspended or anything. So that's, so that's really what the question is. Yes, it's interesting to see which direction the Clippers go as a franchise, what they're going to do with the number five pick.

But really this is a question, Bon Tempts, about Kauai Leonard. Yeah, and it's what, like you said, it really boils down to, do the Clippers sort of double down on the Kauai Leonard experience and have him presumably around for a few more years and go forward with him as the centerpiece of their team? Or do they pivot in the other direction towards being younger, having Darius Garland, who's, you know, has made it all start team before. and if he gets back to being healthy is a very dynamic guard,

plus whoever they draft at five, plus whatever they get back for Kauai, and what they do this summer. And I think certainly we've spent a lot of time wondering about what happens with Yonis, and I think wherever, if there's resolution for that, we find out what's going on with him, where the teams that have been interested in Yonis, in theory, would be interested in Kauai plus others,

and it could lead to some potentially interesting outcomes if he does actually wind up on the market. Because if he is healthy, you could argue he was better than Janice last year when he was healthy. He was one of the five or six best players on the planet last year when he was on the court and playing. And he played a lot of games. So, you know, there's always going to be the health question with him

and how much he's going to be able to play, especially as he's going into his age 35 season. But when he's on the court, he's still a killer. And he could really swing things in a direction, depending on where he winds up, if the cook is do, in fact, decide to move on from. Now, he's due 50.3 million this season. You guys might remember the exact numbers, but that was slightly less than max.

Not a lot less than max, but it was slightly less than max. My understanding is if there's going to be an extension, there's going to be some like legitimate negotiations. This isn't just going to be like, can you take a little haircut? Like he's going to have to take a pay cut, I believe, to end up extending with the clippers. So, you know, we'll see. I think it's extended with a pay cut or explore the trademark. I think those are the two real options. And obviously, with this youth movement, they've positioned themselves to where, hey, if it's explore the trade market,

they've already kind of started the post-Kawai transition despite the fact that they, you know, they still have some picks that they owe. Well, the question would become, what would the Kauai Leonard trade market? be and would it be something that you would explore before free agency or after free agency and would a team be willing to trade for him not knowing what the aspiration investigation would lead to because all of those things plain to. I think it's less about aspiration personally because I would agree with you. I don't think the NBA, whatever's going to happen with the aspiration case, whatever punishment will or will not come down on the clippers. I don't think the NBA is going to go to

war with the players association, which I think voiding Kauai's contract and like trying to do anything to Kauai, I think would go in that direction. Or if he gets traded some other team and then they void his contract, like that would cause a whole series of complicating events that I don't think the NBA is going to try to do. So I think the biggest question, because look, if the clippers are trading Kauai, right, they're obviously not going to get like Rie-Gobar trade value back, for example, for him, right? He's a 35-year-old guy who's had an injury history. And, um, but is he going to be willing to extend wherever he gets traded? And if he is willing to extend,

assuming them the team would get a deal done as part of the trade, I think that is the bigger part of figuring out where he would wind up. Because look, I mean, I've not covered Kauai in Toronto. We know how that went. We know how it was in San Antonio the year before, right? Like he was hell-bent on getting to L.A. And he wanted to be in L.A., and that was where he was going to be.

So I think it's a very open question as to, whether he will want to play anywhere else. And I think that's the first thing you have to ask is going into this, all right, if I'm going to give up anything of real value for this guy, is he going to be willing to play here for more than this year? So if the answer is no, then I'm not going to give up very much to trade for him.

So that I think is more than the aspiration stuff. I think it's that. If the clippers start talking to other teams about him, are there places he'd be willing to go and willing to extend there? And if the answer is yes, then I think you could see something potentially happen if they decide to do that.

If the answer is no, it might be better for the clippers or just hang on to them and they don't have to pick next year anyway and try to make the playoffs and figure it out after that. And this is where the Warriors come into the conversation. And Anthony Slater's got a story kind of mapping out different off-season potential scenarios for the Warriors. Got that on ESPN.com today. And he brings up the Quile Leonard option.

And as Slater reports in here, like they had discussions and Ballmer basically put the cabosh on it before they had too advanced before the deadline but you know it first of all you got to get to the to the number 50 million dollars you know it's right back to like the guys that were going to have to go out the door well we all remember the Draymond Green is this goodbye press conference right before the trade deadline because Draymond you know whether or not what I don't know what was communicated to him but he understood that if the Bucks called, that they would,

they potentially would move him. So that Rubicon has been crossed. Yeah, because Draymond Green's good at math, you know? I mean, it's like what's communicated or what's not. Like, Draymond Green is a businessman who understands the way that the cap works and the way that the trade math works,

and he understands what his contract is. And, you know, especially now with Jimmy Butler being, pretty early in a recovery from an ACL, like Draymond would almost certainly have to be in that deal. I'm going to push back on that a little bit. Okay, let me just get one last sentence out. Slater did report that Draymond's expected to pick up his player option

as opposed to, you know, some kind of like decline and, you know, decline in New Deal at a smaller number. I would say if the Warriors end up doing a Kauai Lunter trade, the very obvious thing to do would be to send Jimmy Buffer. back with draft compensation and that would be the trade. I don't think it would involve Draymond Green. Because again, the point, the Warriors, it doesn't do the Warriors a lot of good at that point.

If you trade for Kauai, okay, you have Kauai, you see when Jimmy Butler comes back. But the Warriors would then have a 35-year-old Kauai Leonard and a whatever, 36-37-year-old Stefan Curry. The idea they're then going to wait to have 36-year-old Jimmy Butler come back from the ACL and see where he's at. like I think you would just flip him to the clippers and then the clippers in theory could get Jimmy back on the court maybe a month before the trade deadline

and then it could maybe flip them again if they want or they could keep them. But I mean to me that seems like a very simple trade if they decide to do that and then you figure out what the draft compensation is. Well, let me just say this. You remember Bontems pretty well. I don't think you were fully covering the Nets yet,

but you remember Carmelo Anthony. The Nets were all in on Carmelo Anthony. Our colleague Bobby Marks was involved with that and the Nets front office. That's right. I was living in New York City, work at the New York Post for that whole saga. They tried like crazy to trade for Carmelo. They were going to be moving to Brooklyn. They wanted a signature star. They were seeking a meeting. You know, the Carmelo only had one year on his contract. He, you know, was not going to say he wanted to be in New Jersey. And there was a meeting schedule. Do you remember that it was supposedly

going to be this meeting? Midseason. There was going to be a meeting between the Nets and the, and Carmelo where they were going to like pitch Mello. They'd already missed out on LeBron and Bosch and Wade the summer before. And basically, Carmelo was like, I'm not coming. And famously, Mikhail Prokroff called the meeting or called the press conference and said, the meeting with Carmelo was hereby canceled, which is when Mello found out it was canceled. I'm pretty sure. Anyway, later that day or the next day, the Utah Jazz quietly called up and said,

Hey, that stuff that you were going to trade for Carmela? Was that stuff? What about Darren Williams? Is it still available? Because we have this guy who doesn't like our head coach. And they like shock traded for Darren Williams out of the clear blue sky. In the middle of the night. Within 72 hours, right, of that press conference, I feel like.

Or was pretty close to that. And so I'll just say if there's a bunch of teams offering stuff for Janus, and then Janus either doesn't get traded or gets traded somewhere else, Those teams like Golden State, like Miami, maybe they see what the clippers are interested in because, you know, or someplace else. You know, it may not be Hawaii, maybe another player. Do you think Boston would be in that mix? I do not. I mean, I understand that there's this sort of heat around, so to speak, this heat around Jalen Brown and the Celtics.

Brad Stevens is a cool customer. He doesn't act rashly. He's not responsive. I know that there's a possibility Jaylen Brown's not going to finish his career as a Celtic. I know there's a possibility if the Celtics don't want to give him an extension this summer that we talked about the other day on the pod,

that that could be a thing. I am not a believer that Jalen Brown is not going to be a Celtic at the start of the season. That was a weird double negative. I believe there's a very good chance Jalen Brown is staying put with Jason Tate. Right. Now, other removes that the Celtics might make, that's a different story.

You always have to bring up the Timberwolves in these conversations because they are always lurking despite the fact that they've got a bunch of picks out the door. You know, Tim Connolly is always trying to cook something up. So I think you at least have to miss him there. Yeah, Tim Connolly tried to trade for Kevin Durant last trade deadline. Tried to trade for, you know, trade deadline 25. Tried to trade for Yannis trade deadline 26. If you, you know, didn't get as far in this year's playoffs, he did the last two years, if you think the Timberwolves are going to sit out trying to be aggressive at summer,

that 26, I don't have to tell you. Now, what they could, now, they didn't get those deals done. So they may not get anything done now either. But, yeah, but they would be on a list. I don't know about it on a list for Kauai Leonard, but they would be on a list of, well, we couldn't get Janus. What else can we do? And that's really a question of Julius Randall and his future with that team, which is a different topic.

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Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. So in the vein of why would they do that? If you see the Clippers release a bunch of veterans, ask yourself why they're doing it and see what it leads to. All right. Another team that has some decisions to make regarding player options is the Oklahoma City Thunder, a team that has been incredibly stable with its roster for year over year. Although I guess they did make a mid-season trade for Jerry McCain that brought him to the mix.

That worked out. Yeah, but it's not like they gave up a major piece to make that happen. Says you. Darry says it was a quality addition. First round pick, future first round pick. Yeah, Darry was selling high from his couch while McCain was playing well in the playoffs. True. Darryl Morey is still being paid very well by the 76ers.

I would trade jobs with them. You wouldn't? I would. Oh, so would I. I was going to say. Very quickly. You'd do nothing for millions versus work alike. offer not nearly as much, yes.

Yeah, well, you like to not work a lot. That's one of your, that's what you're known for. So, Bontems, the Thunder are, we're not even a luxury tax payer this year. They won, they did something very rare last year where they won the championship without paying the tax. It's happened a few times since the tax came in 25 years ago, but it's, it's definitely rare. And then this year, they didn't pay the tax again. They never paid the tax since, uh, since, I believe,

Shea's first year, I think, the last year that paid a tax when it was the CP3 team. Okay. So anyway, Chet Holmgren's max deal comes online. Jalen Williams' max deal

comes online. A few players have raises in their contract that come up. And all of a sudden they're going to be a second apron team. From out of the luxury tax, into the second apron without making a single edition,

at least, you know, they made the signings to get it, but without making an addition. So, Bontems, they've been preparing for this and here's their optionality, you can go through it. If they right now draft the two picks they have and pick up all the team options they have

for Isaiah Hartstein and Lou Dort and Kennerch Williams, they would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $260 million. And Bobby Marks, our guy has it at $264 million, which is plus tax. Well, right, that's not only, that's just their payroll number. So that is not only, into the second apron, it is $42 million over the second. Yeah, whatever the tax map is, it's hundreds of millions.

Yes. While the Thunder have not paid the tax in a long time, they would be, I'm pretty sure, the most expensive team in the issue, if they have that number. So they will not have that number. And I don't think they will be over the second apron. That's interesting. Well, I mean, it could be over the second apron, but the mat, you know, depends on what they do.

So then the question becomes, all right, so what do you do? So you have those three main team options deal with. Those are the biggest things. You have Kennerch Williams, just over $7 million. Kenner Twyums either not be on the Thunder or not be playing on the Thunder for a $7 million option next year. That seems very simple. Lou Dort, who's on a $17.7 million team option for next season.

I think that is an interesting conversation. And then Isaiah Hartinstein, who's on a $28.5 million dollar. You know who all thinks it's an interesting conversation? Lou Dorttort, who hired Rich Paul in the middle of this last season. Correct. which is typically not something the guy does before taking a team-friendly deal. No, so that will be an interesting negotiation. Then Isaiah Arnstein has this $28.5 million team option,

and I would say of those three guys, he is the most likely guy to be back. However, I would guess that what will end up happening there, so you'll sign a longer-term deal for a lower number because Thunder have some ability to handle those negotiations with that team option and get Hartnstein some longer-term money and also lower their bill for this upcoming season. Say they, if they just trade Dort and trade Kenneth Williams,

which I know is not a minor thing to trade Dort, but let's just say for argument's sake, if they trade those two guys and sign Hartstein for a deal, it starts at $20 million, they've already lopped off $30 million, $35 million, off of that number I was talking about, and then they're $5 billion over the second year. You're saying trade Dort into spate, though,

without taking back salary. Yeah, not without taking back salary. Which I'm sure they could do. I think that could be done. My point is just that if you do those two deals and you sign Hartenstein to a deal that starts at $20 million, you're already almost back at the second eight.

They could pick up Hartenstein's option and just say, we'll see you in September. Or they could say, Isaiah, can we come to terms on a new deal? And here's where this new deal could start. And so, by the way, they're allowed to negotiate that, right now. They can negotiate that with him. And they can say, okay, what we're going to do here is we're

going to decline your player option and then we're going to give you a brand new contract that adjusts his number. One funny note about that negotiation period. It starts at 1201, the night after the finals ends. And the finals ended at about 11, I think about 1145 or 1150 Eastern time. So it technically, I think, started 10 minutes after finals ended, which was just a funny quirk. Got a couple people in the league, text we'd say, can we have this go another day? Can we get another, can we get overtime or another 15 minutes? So I get a whole 24 hours. You're ready for this? I said, I don't think that's going to happen. And yet we have no reports of deals yet. But listen, with Hartstein, I would be very, very, very, very surprised if he's not back with Oklahoma City next year. And I do think the most likely

scenario is it's an extension that gives them, you know, that starts at a lower number than he's on now. I, you know, what exactly that number looks like, I would be guessing, but I think that's the most likely scenario there. I think Kenrich Williams is likely to return, but it might be on a minimum, right? It's not going to be making $7 million. He's either not going to be there or he's not going to be making $7 million for the fucker. One of those two options would be the case. Lou Dorts the pressure point. And, you know, there are, you know, a few different options there.

just pick up the team option, kick that decision down the road for a year and deal with the, you know, the massive luxury tax bill that comes along with it to decline the option and just straight up get savings or trade him into space and get savings. Three would be to try to work out an extension. I think that extension, though, is going to have to be probably at a lower number. obviously it's on it's the job of his agency clutch to figure out what exactly the market might be you know there's a team in LA that could definitely use point of attack perimeter defense that you know would be a pretty good place to start that discussion you like to attack at the point

of attack I'll tell exactly and yeah would probably not want to have Lou Dork guarding their superstar anymore as a you know side benefit oh and and Lou I mean look look Lou is basically a catch and shoot jump shooter. And again, if he's getting wide open, catch and shoot jumpers from Luca, that would be an interesting fit for sure. We can sit here and kind of play spreadsheet, fantasy GM and all that kind of stuff.

You do have to consider the human element of all this. Lou Dort is tied with Chey Gildes-Alexander is the longest-tinted active members of Oklahoma City Thunder. He is the ultimate culture guy there, developmental success story, coming in as an undrafted free agent, working his way into being a quality starter for a championship team, and all that.

And while Shea made a very public show of saying I'm not going to be involved at all in these discussions, I'm going to let the best GM in the world do his job. Just trust me on this. SGA will lobby for Lou. I'm not guessing on that. SGA will lobby for you.

Well, of course he will. Yeah. So his team Canada teammate, long-time teammate there, they're good friends. It only makes sense. That doesn't mean that he's going to, you know, throw a bunch of chairs if the decisions made through law from him. But SGA will lobby for Louis, a lobby to Sam Presti, probably even to ownership. And once upon a time, way back in the day, Michael Jordan was best friends with a guy named Charles Oakley. And Jerry Krause traded Charles Oakley. And Michael Jordan was not happy about it for about a time. decade. And it's even though it led to a lot of good things afterward. And, you know, like, I'm not saying Shay would hold a 10-year grudge. But my point is that even if your MVP says, I want to keep a guy, it doesn't necessarily mean that's how it's going to end either. Yeah. When, when, when Shea, honestly, was kind of BS and when he said he'd have no input, he's not BSing about the belief and trust and massive amount of respect that he has for Sam Presti.

So I don't think it's, I don't think whatever decision is made there is going to cause any sort of rifts just to be clear. No, for sure. When you've got to go back-to-back MVP lobbying for you, that's not a bad thing, obviously, if you're in loose shoes. Now, the other factor here is they have ready-made replacements. Like, Kason Wallis could step right in to that starting lineup and be, I mean, he is already an all-defensive selection as a point. of attack defender. He's in a, maybe you could argue, even an upgrade as a defensive player, as as great as Ludoort is on that end of the floor with more offensive upside for sure.

You know, A.J. Mitchell, maybe they decided to plug him into the starting lineup and really add another dynamic playmaker there as they did in the playoffs. You know, that was to replace Jaylon Williams. But the point is they've got some real, not just like, potential for young guys in the back court, but like proven high, high level players that are, that are ready for bigger roles. So, and, you know, we, we're talking about these three guys because of the team options, there are other ways they can cut costs.

It's no secret. Like Isaiah Joe's on the trade block, Aaron Wiggins is on the trade block. there will, you know, I would expect probably at least one of those guys to get moved in a cost-cutting deal. They're both proven quality role players that there will be interest in. I think especially Isaiah Joe as a movement shooter. There's a lot of every, I mean, who doesn't need more shooting. So, you know, there's other ways for the Thunder to trim salary off the books. And, by the way, I would be surprised if they pick at both 12 and 17, whether that's packaging those picks to move up,

or we've seen Presti on many occasions, try to pick now for upside down the road, even upside swap down the road. Right. And they've not been afraid to pay a premium. If there's a player that they like to pick that they move to, they are not afraid to pay a premium. They have unlimited assets.

They can do whatever they want in terms of going to get a guy, and they have repeatedly gone up and got guys. And sometimes they've had some huge hits with that, and sometimes I've had some misses with that. But that's why you have the amount of assets that they do. The draft is a crapshoot and you get as many bites at the apple as you can. And you see where it lands. It's why they have such a deep roster.

And yeah, I mean, it's why they're, I mean, they're the most fascinating team of the entire summer because they have a lot of really good, I do, because they have a lot of really good players and they can go a lot of different directions. And you know, especially coming off losing to the spurs, A, Sam Presti was already spending every day thinking about the challenge of trying to take down, Victor Ibn Yama and Spurs for the next five years. He's only going to be doubly thinking about that after losing to them. And again, there's a lot of, like Tim said, there's a lot of massive decisions, not just this

year, but do you do an extension with Kason Rawls? And is so at what number? Do you do an extension with A.G. Mitchell? And if so, at what number? We just went through half the roster of rotation quality or better players that have uncertain futures there. Is A.J. Mitchell eligible for an extension? He's got one-year-plus team option, yeah.

I don't think he can sign one immediately. But my point is if you're sitting there in a front office strategy room and you're planning for what's going ahead, part of what you're thinking about is, okay, we've got to budget in going forward, what we're going to do with Case and Wallace if we keep him and what we're going to do with A.J. Mitchell, if we keep him. And then how that impacts the rest of their books, especially, as you pointed out at the beginning, when you're talking about having three max players on your roster, that just you have to really be prudent about every dollar you're spending, both today and also thinking about the extra dollars that are coming down the row. Well, and look, the other thing is, like, Case and Wallace is a very, you know,

they trot him out to a lot of media availability because he's very good at saying nothing. But in his way, at his exit interview, like he indicated, hey, yeah, you know, I am hungry for a bigger role. And remember, when Shea was down that abstrain, Shay was down, A.J. Mitchell was down. Case and Wallace was the guy with a ball in his hands and there was a stretch there where they kept their head above water and a big reason was because he was putting up 20 points on a regular basis. I think he was like something like 20 points and six assists during that span.

So, you know, these are all all factors and they've got a ton of options. They've got a championship trophy already. You know, certainly they're going to be, they're set up to be a contender for a long time, but there's a lot, you know, I agree. It's going to be a fascinating summer in Oklahoma. city because there are a lot of different questions to answer as far as what the roster looks like right now and what kind of commitments you make specifically with Case and Wallace in the future. If indeed you do get an extension done within the summer.

All right. Before we go, I just want to circle back around to some of the stuff that Anthony Slater wrote about with the Warriors. One thing that he questioned was what would happen with the number 11 pick in the draft that the Warriors own. Now, a couple of things here. One, remember, Steve Curry's re-signed multi-year contract to remain with the Warriors. Steph Curry has indicated that this will not be his last year.

In fact, he would like to do a contract extension. Jimmy Butler is going to miss, we have to expect him to miss the bulk of the year. Hopefully he's back after the All-Star break, but, you know, his player in his mid-30 is coming off in ACL. So if they're going to opt out of a lottery pick here, it's got to be for a player who can help them immediately and not for just this season, not a rental. Like a guy who will be a core player for the next couple of years. The player that Slater floats is Trey Murphy from the Pelicans.

Or is a very interested in him for a while. A number of teams have. So I think it was Mark Stein who reported first, and if it wasn't him, I apologize. I'm not trying to disregard anything who said that the Pelicans, after really never wanting to listen on Trey Murphy, are listening for Trey Murphy. But their standard is very high as it should be. And it's going to be at least probably two first round picks. And, you know, the number 11 pick is a pretty good one to start with. No question.

Yeah. To start to start with. Right. To start with. Right. I like so. There's probably going to be another pick on top of that. You can have, Tray Murphy makes, what, $28 million or something like that, fine time? I'm not looking that up right now. He's at 27, 27 next year. 27 next year, 27, 29, 31. So you have to send something out for him as well, you know, in addition to potentially that.

But, like, of course, like, he'd be a great fit for the Warriors. He's a six foot eight, you know, pretty athletic, can do some things off the dribble, volume three-point shooter who's just entering his prime. He'll be 26 next season. So you're getting a help now guy as you're trying to be competitive during Steph's, you know, Twilight, however long of that that may be. And obviously, Steph's still playing an incredibly high level. But then also a bridge to the post-Stef future potentially. you know with tray Murphy what you're trying to replicate there and maybe i should just have jackson cut this out but you're trying to replicate a clay thompson pairing there is what you're trying to do i don't

think he's the defender clay thompson he's not let's just relax they're not trying to do that they're trying to get a good point just stop you're trying to get a big you're trying to get a big wing who can you're trying to get a good player don't try to turn tray murphy's a really nice player don't try to turn him into Hall of Fame player. Trey Murphy is a really good player who has yet to be an all-star in his first five years, but he is a big wing who's a high volume 3.2. Yeah, he's a good player. I'm not, I'm not trying to knock on Trey Murphy. We don't need to try to clear it to Clay Thompson. That's not what they're trying to do. They're trying to get another good player. Right. But like if you look at the Warriors and where they've come down from their heights,

the lack of the player that Clay Thompson was is where you feel, where you feel it. Also, Steph's no longer in the prime as great as he still is. Like, I mean, a lot of things there. There's a lot of things. And the Warriors have come to the realization that, quite frankly, they're not a championship contender. Like, you can't keep being a playing team and then not get out of the play in. Look yourself in the mirror and say, oh, we're a piece away. We're a piece away.

No, they want to be a competitive team in Steph's Twilight. You know, there's honor in being competitive. That's where they are. I'm not really sure trading multiple first round picks for Trey Murphy is a smart move for a team in Golden State situation either. Number 11 picks a pretty good pick. Like you're getting a young guy that in theory you can have be a player you're building around going forward. Trey Murphy is a good player. This is not about Trey Murphy.

It's just like you said, Big Man, this is not a team that the Warriors should be happy is to make the playoffs next year. Like the West is difficult. Like the Jazz, I think, are going to be better than the Warriors next year. They're deeper. They're younger. They got a lot of talent. And that's just one team. You know, all these teams at the top are probably all going to be back in the mix again.

So, you know, in Golden State right now has Jimmy Butler with a torn ACL and a 36 to 37-year-old Draymond Green, a 36-37-year-old Seth Curry. And like, they got in, they're just, they have a lot of work to do. So Tramorf is a good player. Like, he'll certainly help if they get him. But I don't know if I'd be traded multiple first round picks to get him to get him to add to the group of that. It's the same reason why for his great as Janice's,

I thought them giving up their draft for him was a, I could, it's a debatable move, given where the situation that their whole roster's at. It's like, I'm not saying they got to try to just tank with Steph, but I'd probably be trying to be a little less aggressive than that, ultimately, it's all right.

Well, I'm sure they'll be interesting because they always are. All right. Thank you so much to all of our producers, Mark Tucker, Jackson, at all. Thank you very much. to Bontam said McMahon.

Thank you for watching and listening to HOOP collective. Will we need an emergency pod this weekend? We'll see. McMahon's going out of town, so the answer is yes. Yeah. Adios amigos. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if?

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