Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - More NBA Chaos + Embiid Return & Panic For Cavs?

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to discuss a wild ending in Philadelphia between the Hawks & 76ers before discussing the state of Embiid in his return and how Atlanta looks without Trae Young. Then, the guys talk some potential lottery pick madness for the Thunder, some award drama, the Cavs & Wolves lingering struggles and the depth of the Spurs coming in handy without Wemby. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.espn.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hooke Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday evening, getting towards Monday morning, joining us from the Xfinity Arena.

I think I can't remember what it's called. It's where the 76ers play. Tonight they played the Hawks and again they went to double overtime, which is one of the reasons why we're potting so late is Tim Bottops. This is 6 p.m. tip. I thought it was going to end relatively normally on time. Certainly look like it was going to end normally on time when the Hawks were up by 8 with 49 seconds to go. it did not want to get home very late as a result. Yes, and now you're in a hostage situation there.

That is correct. Joining us from Los Angeles, where he's gone to three games and lost three days, and he left, he was pulled himself away from the Pelicans Lakers game, which is going on across the street from where he's at right now. It's Ban McMan. Howdy, partners, two and a half games. I did hear a whole lot of excuses from Bon Timps, a guy who whines and cries a whole lot about House.

Slow I am to work, but five hours after tip, bond temps. If McMahon had been covering this game, we would have written. He would have started the pot at about 1.30 Eastern time. You did file a story that for November game is very long. Well, true. A lot of, as I said in the lead, Joel and Bede, Paul, George, and Tyrese, played together for the first time this season, and Joel B. B.

played for the first time in three weeks, and both of those things became footnotes in the game, as the game played out. Yeah, well, I will say this. So the Hawks won that game. The Hawks have had, they had a good weekend. They won in Cleveland on Friday, and we'll talk about the calves in a minute. Things aren't going well in Cleveland right now. And then they go into Philly and pull out a double overtime win.

Jalen Johnson is just putting together an all-star season. and he had 41 points in this game, made two free throws to force, was that the fourth of first overtime or the second overtime? I couldn't remember. At the end of the first overtime amid the accidental review. Okay, well, we'll get to that in the second. So the Hawks are starting to put together some victories, and they are so athletic and so long,

and they switch. And look, they gave up 130-something points tonight, because it was double overtime and Maxi had 44. But they've got some stuff going for them. But anyway, you know, we don't go over regular season, little happenstances like this, but there was a weird timing thing

that happened tonight, Bontems. Yeah, at the end of the first overtime, Tyrese maxi missed two free throws. It would have put the game away after the Hawks had blown an eight-point lead in the final minute of regulation when they had a chance to win the game. Which that seems to be happening like every other day.

some team. Why can't these teams, first off, there's a bunch of guys missing free throws. Star players missing free throws. Cade Cunningham, he may be having an all-star season. He's missed two clutch free throws in the last week that contributed to, now that they wouldn't have maybe gotten. He is having an all-star season, to be clear. But he did miss those free throws. Tyreys Maxie is having it all in the B.A. season. He missed two free throws of four seconds to go at the end of the first overtime. That would have iced a game. Instead, it was a two-point game. Jalen Johnson drives on the baseline. It gets foul. by Dominic Barlow goes a line for two.

Nick Nurse calls timeout. Try to ice him. He had two timeouts. He's going to call a second one after the free throws and try to set up a play. James Capers, our friend, friend of the pod, thought Nick Nurse had called for a challenge. So he went to the scores table. He reviewed the play. Nick Nurse later said when I asked him about it, I called time out.

I went and talked to my team. I walked back out and I said, what's going on? So he then goes to the rest. and says, I never called for a challenge. I just called time out. And the referee's huddle, they then declare, they decide that there wasn't a challenge. And the key part of this is,

when they called the foul initially, there was 0.3 seconds on the clock. When they reviewed the foul, which was a clear foul, and said that there was a foul, and therefore was an unsuccessful challenge, they changed the amount of time that was left from 0.3 seconds, which you barely have time to get a shot off, to 1.1 seconds,

where you have time to, like, run a play and actually get a real, shut off. But because they then said there wasn't a challenge, the time went back to 0.3 seconds, and so it acted like nothing ever happened. So after a very long delay in a very long icing of Jalen Johnson, he walks out, calmly hits both without hitting the rim. Sixers don't get a shot off at the other end. Joel and B. doesn't play in the second overtime. Neither is Paul George. Neither is V.J. Edgecombe also came back today from injury. And the Hawks pulled away and ended up winning. Yeah, by the way, Paul George came back, is back from injury,

and he said tonight that his back stiffened up after the game, or during the game. Yeah. So that's no big deal, but I didn't like hearing. He looked fine after the game. But yeah, I mean, with the Sixers, there's always something new around the corner at all times. I thought Andre Drummond may have blown his knee out on Friday. He then was back and warming up fine and played the first six minutes of the, played six minutes in the first quarter.

Then he got pulled from the game because he said there was some soreness in his knee. There's always something with the sixers. Yes. And then there was actually at the end of regulation, Nick Nurse called a time out thinking he could set up a last shot. Well, Nick tried to call time out when the Hawks missed a shot with about three seconds to go and the referees didn't see it. So there was no time out given. Anyway, I don't know how you felt about the way Embed look. He played 30 minutes in this game. This is the first time I've watched him play since he came back.

This is the second game back, right? First game. No, this is the first game back. It was out as of 1230 this afternoon, and then he was upgraded to questionable, and then he played, and he played a season high 30 minutes. He looked like what I expect him to look like, which is he moved okay. He's limited in the ground he can cover defensively. When he gets the ball in a sweet spot, he's going to be hard to take offensively.

He was Joe, he is 2025 Joelle and beat. I don't know what else to say other than that was my assessment. Yeah, I mean, he's sort of been the same guy since the first game of the season. He had that horrible game against Boston. He was one for nine, had four points. But ever since then, up until today when he had 18 points on 14 shots, he had at least 20 points in each of the next five games. His jumper looks good.

And he's been, like you said, he's been compromised with his mobility on defense. And until that changes, and he really, looks explosive moving around on the defensive end, then it's going to be an up and down process and, you know, it's going to be a struggle. Like, he was minus 11 tonight in 30 minutes. And a lot of that was from not being able to get to rebounds and not moving around very quickly on the defensive end of the court. But he's still a guy that the defense really respects when he's out there.

He's drawn people to him. They can run dribble handoffs with him and Paul George and him and Tyree smacks, him in Quentin Grimes and Edgecom and all these guys. But the question's going to be, I wrote about this and a story about the Sixers on Friday, can the defensive mobility and can the trust in his knees get to the point where he can move around more fluidly and better on the defensive end?

If he can, then the Sixers are really being in business. And if he can't, then it's going to be a challenge to navigate that because he's been somebody that teams have been able to go at from a mobility standpoint. the hawks had success doing that today. All right. Well, I will say that the hawks, do you agree with me about that their length when they go out there and they basically put four or five, six foot eight to ten guys out there that

they seem to me to be able to cause teams trouble with that athleticism and length in a way that they just couldn't when, when Trey was out there. And they just keep bringing them. They just keep inserting guys that big. It's really, you can see the thought process and what they put their roster together. And it seems like it's really working for them. Well, they put a roster together to be able to protect Trey on the defensive end. And now they're getting a trial run to see what the team looks like without Trey in the mix at all.

On off numbers, small sample size for Trey. You know, like, he's not a good defense play. We understand that. 123.2 defensive rating when he's on the floor and in a much larger sample size, without him on the floor, it's 11.6. It is what it is. Now, he's a hop three pick and roll operator in the league, but the Hawks are, I would assume, in the process of figuring out.

Would they rather move forward with Trey as an offensive. engine and have to protect him defensively or looking like they look right now. Where if Jalen Johnson is looking like this, they've got some serious firepower still offensively. Yeah, I mean, look, and Dick Alexander Walker, I've talked about him since the summer. I'm actually a big fan of his game. He played well again today for the Hawks. But when he's out there instead of Trey Young, they're an excellent defensive team and

an iffy offensive team. And when Trey is out there, they could be an excellent offensive team and they're going to be an iffy defensive team. And I think the question going forward for Atlanta, to McMan's point, I think is less necessarily about what is the long-term marriage with Trey Young and the Hawks, I would say. And I would say more generally, like, you can see the Hawks are building towards a future where Jaylon Johnson is their guy going forward. Like he's a prototypical wing in today's NBA, 6-9, runs like a deer. He can move the ball. he throws down crazy dunks almost every game,

and he fits with the overall vision of the roster. But they're not, they need to have another offensive creator with him that is good enough to have the team be also really good offensively while fitting within this bigger, longer vision that they have. So I think the question is, can the Hawks find another player like that to slide in here somewhere? And how do they do so?

And the most obvious way they will is if they give. one of the top couple picks in this upcoming draft with that Pelicans pick, and they can slot in AJ DeBanza, or they can slot in Darren Peterson, or they can slot in one of these other high-level picks. If that guy comes in and develops alongside these other guys, then they're really cooking, and that's the most obvious direct way to that happening. And if they end up with the eighth pick or the ninth pick or something, which is also very possible, we saw last year all the teams with the worst records

picked from five to eight or four to eight, You know, then we'll see what they do, whether it's in for H.C or if they have trade long term or whatever. But that I think, you know, when you look at where the thunder are at, obviously is the most obvious point on this out west with the Clippers pick where the Clippers are at. No. McMahon saw them yesterday against his Maverins. And where the Hawks are at with his Pelicans pick, you have two ascending young teams with really interesting cores. Obviously, the Thunder are way past interesting. But they also have the ability to get a true difference-making player. at the top of a loaded draft that's only going to supercharge where they're at.

And obviously, if the Thunder get that player, then, you know, just forget about it. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. I mean, the league is in a panic about the Thunder having the Clippers pick. I'm serious. As we sit here, I'm serious about that. As Utah did lose tonight, but as we sit here right now, end of November, if, you know, the season of today, which I know we're 60 games left or whatever. Well, the 20 games, the people, but often is said, though, that the schedule, the standings at 20 games do tend to reflect where they are at the end of the season.

Just as a status update. Sure. The Clippers would give the fifth picked Oklahoma City and the Utah would give the ninth pick to Oklahoma City. The ninth pick is the highest pick. Actually, the Kings just lost, so it would be the sixth pick from the Clippers now. Also, by the way, can I just say something about that King's game real quick as a quick diversion? Can I give you Zach Edie's last three games? Oh, he's put up some numbers.

The Grizzlies have won three in a row. His last three games are 21 points, 15 rebounds. Saw that one. Two blocks. You were at that game in New Orleans or you saw it? I'm sorry, I think that he had a huge game in Dallas too. Yeah. Okay.

That was 15 rebounds, 12 points, but that was a couple of games before. 21 and 15. He had fun. And then they played in L.A. against the clippers over the weekend. He had five points, but 19 rebounds and two blocks. And then tonight, let me get this 100% accurate. Tonight, Zach Edie, 32, 17, and 5 blocks.

Zach 80's really good. Yeah, now the level of competition helps. Fair. Hey, 3217 and 5 is still 3217 and 5. It's on 16 of 20. Wow. I mean, the thing about Memphis, if Memphis plays their guys, like Jaws is obviously not playing right now, but if they play the rest of their guys, they're clearly better than all these other teams at the bottom of the West. I don't even really think it's up for debate.

The question then becomes, if you're Memphis, what is the path forward here? Do you say, well, let's get everybody back. And like, if they play their guys, they bring Jod back, they play him and Jaron and those guys, I think they're going to be, you know, maybe not seven. but they're probably going to get, I think, to eighth in the west, or at worst, nine. Do they try to, well, I think after seven, it's wide open. The point is, do they say, hey, we're just going to push forward with, uh, with these guys and let these young guys play and build stuff up?

Or do they look at where they're at and continue the conversation that Zach climate started after last season when he said, look at where we're at. We're clearly not good enough. And then he moved on from Desmond Bain for a bunch of future assets. I think that's a really interesting thing to watch in Memphis going forward because with how bad the bottom of the West is, now that Edie's back with him and Cedric Howard and Jaron Jackson and Jalen Wells, they're a solid team and I just think they're flat out better than most of these other teams that they're playing, who are all the teams they've been beating during this stretch.

All right. Well, I got a far afield. That was my fault. Let me get back to the status update. Yes. As of this moment, the Clippers would send the six. picked Oklahoma City. The Jazz would send the ninth picked Oklahoma City. Which is top eight protected. Let me remind you. Go on.

So the ninth pick is the best it could ever, it could possibly be. And with the Sixers lost tonight, the Sixers would send the 14th pick to the Thunder. The Thunder as of right now would get three lottery picks. And they've got the Rockets pick at 27, just. I didn't even get to that. draft but and the New Orleans who's about to fall the 3 and 18 assuming they don't make a big fourth quarter

comeback would send the second pick to the Hawks yeah by the way It's not often anymore you see unprotected picks at the top of the draft let alone unprotected picks in a really good draft let alone unprotected picks going to really good teams in a really good draft

yeah I would also you know like to say that the Thunder won tonight over the Blazers was in Portland. Shea had 26. It was a terrible performance from him. Just 26. Well below. He didn't get 20 until there. It was like two and a half minutes left. I know. It was a little drama. To improve to 20 and 1. And Denny Aviah had a 30-4 triple double double. We never talk about him. He 31, 19 and 10. Denny Javia is making the All-Star team this year. Yeah. He's an international player. Well, forget, forget that. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care.

what the qualifications are. He has been unbelievable for Portland. And look, as somebody who didn't like that trade at the time for Portland and thought it was an overpay, I mean, he would look awfully good for the Wizards right now. I mean, it's amazing. He's been awfully good for 30 teams right now. Well, yes, but I just mean like that, that, the Blazers bet right on Denny's upside on that one. Yeah, that was a good evaluation for sure.

He's averaging 26 and 7. by the way. Dude, so there's two significant developments with the Thunder recently. Number one, Isaiah Hartnstein has a soleus strain, which I learned what a solace is. Do you boys know what a solace is? Enlightenus. It is a lower calf muscle out at least 10 to 14 days. So, you know, they get, they're all NBA forwardback.

They lose their starting center for a little bit. They keep winning. The other significant development with the. Thunder is, and this is fairly shocking, Shea's had to play in crunch time in three straight games. He's played in the fourth quarter of three consecutive games. It's pretty close. I think it's 11 fourth quarter sitting, 10 fourth quarters playing at this point. So listen, I'm not saying they're vulnerable. I'm just saying Shays had to actually play in the fourth quarter lately. I'm here to report, I don't know how his minutes per game will be affected by having to play the fourth quarter

tonight. But coming into tonight, he was averaging 33.4 minutes a game, which would be his lowest since his rookie season. Has he averaging more points per minutes, or points to minutes? He is averaging 30, coming into tonight, he is averaging 33 points and 33 minutes. With the decimals, he's a half of a minute more than point. Okay. Well, tonight's 26. and 26 points and 36 minutes sure ain't going to help. Gee, Shea. That's going to get it going to get it going to go on, man. Our projection system, which skews conservative, by the way,

has them winning 68 games now, too. So I actually was looking up the Thunder's late March and April regular season schedule, because I've got a feeling I'm going to have to be on the road with the Thunder on a regular basis, is they're pursuing 70 and beyond. Or 74. Yes. I'm not joking

I will say this one of the like you may say with Bontans what just said it like wait a minute how could they be 20 and 1 and projected to win 68 they do have the hardest schedule left in the NBA well and here's the other thing by our projection system they are favored to win every single game

for the rest of the season Holmore Road every opponent doesn't matter that's actually not that surprising I would say for the rest of the decade Well, I'm just saying I'm pretty sure our system has never had a team favored to win every single game for the entire season. Well, that's probably true, too. That's my point. Like, even when the Warriors won 73 games, they were still playing a Spurs team that had one of, I think, seven or eight best records ever that season.

So, like, they wouldn't have been favored. I don't think to win those road games. Yeah, they had to play for home court advantage until mid-April. So, yes. AJ DeBance is going to have to go to the OKC Blue to get minutes. It's a situation we really haven't seen since maybe, what, the Lakers and Celtics in the 80s, since Land-Ius, maybe. I am not kidding when I'm telling you, like, the league is,

they're looking at this going, oh, actually, what is happening that can't believe the thunder are going to get a midder or high lottery. I mean, the last time this happened was, I was just going to say, 2003, when LeBron got drafted and it was met Jerry West sitting there. is either going to be LeBron James or nothing, and they ended up drafted Darko at the second pick. And boy, are they hoping there's a Darko in it in his top six. So I will tell you that on the 10th anniversary of the, in 2013,

I've only done one oral history in my career. And the remain is one. Oh, I've done numerous, but I'm just a grinder. Go on. You know, not like one that was done like, you know, the night of the game. where you did an instant oral history. I've done some of those. But like where you actually like spent months doing it.

Baxter and I just won a PBWA award on one. Well, congratulations. Thank you. You know, that was actually, you had a Bont House. You know, it was amazing. Jackson, I got to tell you this story. So the PBWA, the Professional Basketball Writers Association, they announced their awards, like a couple weeks ago, the annual awards.

Uh-huh. And the email comes in. Congratulations to award winners. And then it was like, feature. whatever place McMahon. Did you win? Was it first place? First place.

Congratulations. Jackson. McMahon's name wasn't on it. It just said, winner. Baxter. Baxter Homes, ESPN.com. Congratulations, Baxter.

It's great. Internal emails went out. Oh, man, Baxter. You did it again. What a great job. McMahon's name is nowhere to be able. Nowhere to be found. Missing.

And then, like, you know, like in the middle of the night, like the email came out. No, you're exaggerating. I will say I found out, I found out that the awards were announced. And Baxter sent me a text to apologize and say that he'd emailed the PBWA head honcho to get things right. So I will say this. Let me say two things about awards. One, I was stripped of an award a couple of years ago. I don't blame you.

A very. High profile. A very high profile award. You know, not the pull of sir, but you know, very high profile. Well, I won't say what. A higher profile than professional basketball writers. No offense. No offense.

I've won. I don't mean that's not what I mean. No offense. No offense. I've got a shelf full of those. That did sound so pompous and I want to apologize. No, no, don't want to apologize. You are a pompous ass.

Go on. But it doesn't matter. The head just swells. I won this. award. I was named this award publicly announced. The award was named after him. How about that? What award? What award? The head just keeps getting bigger. Don't worry about it. So, uh, I'm worried. And it was for like, uh, feature stories of a certain length. And the word was announced publicly, blah, blah, blah. And then like, I never like got any like, honor like I never like got the award or like you know there's I think there's like some sort of

banquet or something you go to window window knew that somebody had that be having in there to fed in McMahon it couldn't be a there couldn't be a reason why he wouldn't be invited to a banquet in his honor for an award he should have had chicken parm on the menu clearly I had chicken parm tonight I made it what are we doing what are we doing with this story I don't anyway when the story then when the when the when the when the when the when the when the ranking came out, I wasn't in there. It was just gone. Oh.

And so I called, you know, I called my boss. So he banged the table. Where is my award? So I called my editor. And I was like, hey, what happened to my honor? What happened to my award? And they were like, oh, no one talked to you about this? So what happened to it?

Somebody had gone in and counted the words in my story. And I was like 30 words to, it was like, you know, stories of a certain length that I was 30 words too long. Well, that's fitting because this story was at least 30 words too long. You got that right. But you remember that it lasted too long. It was where you started. I was stripped. He just did an oral history of how he didn't get.

No, what I want to know is who went in and checked it. Who screwed me? Where are they? No, I mean, obviously, I was ruled ineligible. Who is second place? his second place. I don't remember. It doesn't matter. Because he's on top of those awards. It doesn't matter because he didn't win it. So he blocked it out of his mind. It's gone. Doesn't exist. Hold on. I want to know why you brought up oral histories in the first place

before I got to a sidetrack. So I did this oral history. I called Jerry West. Back to him again. Ten years on, I called Jerry West to do the 10 year anniversary story of the 2003 draft lottery. And Jerry West's. frustration about not being able to draft LeBron James had not dulled in one decade. And if you remember, that situation was if the pick was top one protected, if the grizzlies got one, they got LeBron. If they got two, they got nothing. And it was because of a draft pick from five years earlier when they were in Vancouver.

Was it an Otis Thorpe? Otis Thorpe. Otis Thorpe trade. Yep. and he said some words with curses around them about how they could not have that pick more protected. He, I fairly, I didn't speak about it again to him before his death, but I fairly certain he passed away still furious.

I mean, I have no doubt, knowing Jerry West, the tiny bit, I have no doubt that that was the case based off of how he thought about things. Anyway, he could have drafted Darko. Okay, so. Or Dwayne Wade. Well, that's the thing like... Carmel. Chris Bosch.

Nobody, you know, everybody pretends like, you know, if they had the second pick, that they would never have picked Arco. Yeah. No way would I have ever picked him. It said everybody. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. All right. Well, the team that did win the 2003 lottery lost their third consecutive game on Sunday night

to the Celtics where Peyton Pritchard put up 40, two. I will say in the fourth quarter of this game, to start the fourth quarter, I counted there were, of the 10 players on the court between the Celtics and Cavs, I think maybe seven of them would never have seen the floor in any meaning, in any real game in the fourth quarter of, you know, when the game was close last year. Because like these teams are so, like the look of a Cavs Celtics game is so different. Having said that Jordan Walsh was beating the Cavs to lose.

balls up and down the court first through fourth quarter. And the Cavs, after the game, Donovan Mitchell did not talk to reporters. Oh, wow. You know, Donovan has sort of prided himself on being the voice of the team in good time, bad, and sort of taking accountability. That's telling. That silence speaks volumes. It's very telling.

Yes. and sort of the guy who was sort of giving the state of the team address after the game, I wasn't there as far as I could tell by reading the coverage was second year forward Jalen Tyson. That's not his place to be. I mean, honestly, that's on the vets. That shouldn't happen. But he was basically calling himself and his own team out for lack of focus issue. So the calves are now 11 and 9.

I'm sorry, 12 and 9. and they are, you know, fairly banged up. They announced today that Larry Nance is going to, you know, friend of the show is going to be out three to four weeks with a calf injury. Jared Allen. I did not get that. I should follow up on that. Jared Allen is going to be out for another week or so with a finger injury.

He's been battling it on and off. Darius Garland is back, but not playing very well. Yeah, minus 27 a day. And you mentioned Pritcher getting 42. Those are pretty directly related stats. I have to say, like, one of the big things, I mentioned this to Bontemps, you know, watching Garland on Friday against the Hawks,

he was bothered really significantly by the hawks' length. And then I watched Maxie tonight, and Maxie just blew through it. He just ran around it. And, you know, seeing, you know, what I'm saying, you know, Darius is a guy who plays at speed. And in my view, amateur eye, he didn't have the quickness of his on his feet to have explode.

And he couldn't, he couldn't deal with the length. Well, he's also a lot lighter than Tyrese maxi. Right, but I'm talking about with his foot, with his foot. Right. But even if he has his speed, he doesn't have the body strength to deal with the bigger guys. He's been a multi-time all-star. He's a very good, he's a very good player. What I'm saying is he's playing, but I don't think he's right.

Well, he probably isn't right. But at the same time, like, the league is trending away from guys really small guards like Darius Carlin. Like, whether it's John Moran or Trey Young or him, like they're all really talented players. But the league is going towards bigger, more physical players. And we started the pod talking about how big Atlanta is across the board. Tyrese and Donovan Mitchell are not six, seven guards, but they are big, physical, you know, use their bodies to get. in the lane and attack guards. And, you know, the concerning thing to me, if I'm a Cavs partisan, like our guy window,

is Donovan Mitchell is scoring 30 points a game, is shooting a career high 50% from the field. He's never shot better than 48 in a season. He's only done that once. He's only shot over 56 or 46 one other time. And he's currently shooting 39% on over 10% percent. three point attempts per game, which is crazy efficiency. And he's doing it playing 34 minutes a game, shooting a career high, 20.8 attempts a game.

Like Donovan is putting on a show almost every night and the calves are eking out these games. And like the Sixers who have dealt with a ton of injury issues, the calves are dealing with a ton of injury issues, as you just laid out, Brian. And on top of that, I don't think we can really expect the calves to stop dealing with. with injury issues because these are all players, whether it's Lonzo Ball or DeAndre Hunter with his knee or Dean Wade, who's constantly banged up. Jared Allen has been in and out of the lineup at times. Blair Nance, our friend of the pot, has dealt with injuries.

Garland, you mentioned he's had reoccurrences of this toe injury. Like, I think it's, I think the safe assumption is the calves are going to be continuing to deal with guys being in and out of the lineup or just out. They still don't have Max Trues coming back anytime soon. Sam Merrill has been out a lot. of the year. He's actually, that's actually hurting them. Yeah, like, he's, he's a good player too. He isn't, he's not there. They, you know, they obviously lost hydrome for agency. Lanzo has been in and out of the lineup coming off

the bench. Like, right now the calves are in seventh in the east with Donovan playing like this and with a ton of injuries. Like, I think it's fair to start to wonder, again, we're a quarter of the way into the season, like, is this going to be here where the calves are somewhere in the five to maybe even play in range in the east? And, While if the calves are healthy in April, I think they would certainly feel like they could go beat anybody. If they're down in that kind of range and they've got to have three series on the road and, you know, either dig their way out of the playing or have to start in the sixth seed to start on the road, that's going to be a much different road than they're going to have to go through the one of what we thought it was going to be at the start of the year when it was them in the Knicks in theory atop the conference fighting for the one seat.

Well, and Orlando got off to that slow start. They've passed the calves. They've won eight to ten. You know, Atlanta's playing well. Miami's playing well. Raptors are starting to sink like a stone through two straight games. Actually, though, the Raptors,

since RJ Barrett's gone down, that's been a pretty significant blow. But obviously they got off to a great start. Yeah. I think we all thought that the calves were pretty solidly penciled into a top two or three seed, and that's going to be an uphill climb. Well, they have a friendly schedule for the rest of the,

for December. for the most part until Christmas Day they go on a three-game road trip to New York, Houston, and San Antonio starting on Christmas. But they have a friendly schedule relatively. And, you know,

they have a back-to-back Sunday, Monday, and then they have a back-to-back on Friday and Saturday. And then they don't have a back-to-back for a few weeks, and I think they get some off days. So, you know, a lot of focus in Cleveland. Whenever I'm, I mean, there's only two topics to talk about in Cleveland. One is Shadur Sanders.

And the second one is Evan Mowgli. People are very, very focused on Mowgli. You know, people want to, you know, lay the blame at his feet because he is not having a great offensive season. His numbers are okay. They're comparable to where they were last year. His efficiency is down. Mowgli is kind of like he's kind of like

what I've said to him he's kind of like a race car on offense and he's kind of like a pickup truck on defense on offense you really need to have everything calibrated he's got to be in the right lineup with the right responsibilities with the right mindset

with the right defensive matchup and if you get all that aligned he's good but there's a lot of stuff that happens and the Cavs do a lot of stuff to try to get him going. Defensively doesn't matter. Who doesn't matter. Who he's guarding?

He doesn't matter. Where he's on the floor. It doesn't matter anything. He just makes defensive plays. You know, they lost in Atlanta on Friday, and that was a good game. Both teams, you know, there was some good playing back and forth. But there was a stretch in the game where he made four or five consecutive plays on defense that totally turned the game around.

He's still absolutely complete playmaking difference, on the defensive end of the court. And what people in Cleveland want is they want that same level of dominance on the offensive event. Well, that just may not be who he is. Well, if that's not who he is, then he's probably not a guy who should be getting a 30% max. Like, that's the, you know, like that. Well, I'm just saying, like, I mean, I think it's fair to think Evan Mowgli can grow

beyond where he is right now. But, like, you know, if he stays right where he is right now, he's probably somewhere in the same category of like Jaron Jackson Jr., right? Who's another guy who, for his up and, like he's had some brilliant moments, but he's also a guy that, you know, is he 100% a 30% max guy? Well, I think Chad Holman is a fair comp and the Thunder got Chad on a 25% max.

Yeah, for now. You know, for now. Well, and look, we just talked about all these. Not for now. There's no supermax in church. Oh, that's right. You're right. And we just talked about all these, we just talked about all these guys who were out for the calves, right?

If there was a time where Evan Mowbly was going to get 16, 17, 18 shots and be like the guy on offense, it would be right now, right? He's taking one more shot a game, and that's because he's taking one more three a game. And he is getting a couple more free throws a game, but he's shooting 60% on free throws, which he's always been somewhere from 65 to 72% of free throws. You know, part of the reason why his efficiency is down is because he's taking more mid and longer shots. I don't know how you explain a 13% free throw drop. Yeah, that's weird.

I mean, it's a, it's a fairly small sample size. If he hits a few free throws in a row, that'll go back up some. I know, but he's never been. Well, but he's also never been, like he's going to 66, 66, 67, 72, 72. So like, it's not like he's an 85% free throw shooter either. So, you know, like, I do think it's fair to be disappointed in him offensively this year. I think if you'd have come into the season and said the calves of all these injuries, Darius Garland's out, all these got, you know, back streuces out, Stan Merrill is out.

Like, you would say, all right, this is a good time for Evan Mowbly to really take a big step forward and take on that offensive load and take some of the pressure off of Donovan Mitchell. And that's what they wanted him to do. And he hasn't done it. That's right. I don't think. I don't think Evan Mowley. I don't think he's 27 points on 11 to 17 shooting against the Celtics was

reason the Cavaliers lost. I hear you're just saying bigger picture. Yes, I would just... He has been playing a little bit better efficiency-wise over the last... And his efficiency is not terrible. He's shooting 50% from the floor, 38 from 3. Right, but it's still the lowest of his career. By several points.

And I would just say that is a good-looking stat line against the Celtics. The Celtics also started Xavier Tillman at center and are basically playing all wings otherwise. So, like, he'd better have 27 points. against the Celtics. And typically in the past, I mean, the Cavs did shoot 52-3s today. And I obviously didn't see this game. But we saw in the series where they beat the Cavs a couple of years ago that Joe Missoula has never really been worried about Evan Mobley getting shots inside at the rim.

And like he'll live with him getting dunks and not give up open threes. Caves to go 20 for 52 from three and lost in this game. So it's not like they didn't hit threes. But yeah, like, you just want to see more from Evan Mowgli on offense. I think that's a fair criticism. And especially in light of all these injuries, like, yeah, like if he's getting 17, 18 shots a night, like, yeah, that's probably where he should be, not at 13 and a half. Like, Cavs just need him to do more than that.

It's part of why they're in the holder. Well, I would just say that Jordan, even though Evan Mowbley had 14 rebounds and Jordan Walsh had 11, Jordan Walsh showed more interest in going after lose balls and anybody on the Cavs roster. in this game. Jordan Walsh, six offensive rebounds. He has spent a couple of years not really playing. He's really earned a rotation spot on this team.

And by the way, Peyton Pritchard, like you said, 42 points, 15 for 22 from the field, six for 11 from three. It remains amazing that it was not long ago, a couple of years ago, that Peyton Pritchard was not really playing, was ready to get a trade out of Boston, and has instead turned himself into a, you know, obviously core guy. for this group going forward, is on an awesome contract, and it has just become a phenomenal piece for them. Like, that's a big time, big time game, especially on the second night of a back-to-back after playing Minnesota yesterday. That's awfully impressive.

By the way, because the calves have been so terrible at boxing out, the basic act of boxing out, I've actually been following. You know, teach them? Teach them some box out? No, no, I don't teach. I don't teach anybody anything. I've been looking at the NBA boxout stats. They're actually not as, the calves are in the bottom 10, but they're not as bad.

You know that party. Who do you think leads the NBA in. You know there's panicking calves corner. Stephen Adams leads the NBA boxouts. You know there's panicking Cavs Corner, McMahon, when Windows is going to the box score stats on NBA.com. Not box out or box out. Or box out.

I'm sorry. What NBA team leads the league in boxouts? I would have guessed. it was the Rockets because they get all these rebounds, but... The Rockets are up there, but... Denver, because of Yokic? I don't know. No.

I'm not studying who's boxing out very often. Let's put this way. What team tends to just do things the right way and makes the, you know, maybe they're... Oh, the thunder? No, they're not even anywhere up here. Oh, I don't know. Who is leading the league in boxouts? I'm not studying the number one defense.

Who's got the number one? I'm not expecting you to know this. I'm just... The number one defense is. His knowledge. Who's got the number one defense in the NBA in the last three weeks? Oh, really? Not the Thunder?

Not the Thunder? Maybe it's last two weeks. The Thunder have number one and everything, but this team's like that. Now we're just making up the stats. The heat. The heat of the number one defensive team in the last 10 games and they're the number one boxout team. Sure.

You love a good box out. Yeah. Sure. I actually, I have loudly in a gym smack the floor and yelled at kids for not boxing out on multiple occasions to where my... Can't see you yelling, Nick, man. The IT department once tried to chastise me, and I said, if those

little bleepers will box out, then I won't have to yell about it. All right, who's last in boxouts from a team? The Nets, the Wizards. I was going to say that. Good guesses. Nets, wizards. Elicans. I don't know. I'm not going to do the Lakers.

The Lakers. That's interesting. What player leads in boxouts? What are we doing? What are we doing a box outs? That's Stephen Adams. Is it not? Zach Edie.

Zach Edie? Well, that makes sense. He's got a big and box out a lot of folks. All right. So I'm just saying. Dude, have you seen Zach Edie's calves? They're redwoods. So does Stephen Adams.

Both men have large legs. They're hard to move. Zach Eadie was taught if you box somebody out there, I could be able to get around you. That's how you get all these rebounds. All right. It helps be seven foot three or whatever he is, seven foot four. I don't know how it's all he is.

Before we go, the Spurs played the Wolves on Sunday night. Aunt Edwards with his fifth consecutive 30-point game, which he's needed because the wolves had two terrible losses last week. And then they went in and played a competitive game but lost to Oklahoma City. By the way, point guard Anthony Edwards, according to. to Chris Finch. Well, he doesn't have much else to, although I will say sometimes in late game situations recently, he snuck Mike Conley out there. Well, and that's the thing.

Mike Conley is 38 years old and, you know, father time is laying in some punches. And Conley just can't come to the rescue and he can't play a lot of minutes and he can't do what he used to do when he is on the court. So like when they came to OKC, kind of the definitive play of the game, was Devencenzo getting stripped by shade half court turns into a go-head layup and the, uh, the, the wolves never regain the lead. Like they, the wolves have a point guard problem. And, you know, Ant is a lead guard. He's not a point guard. And that's where, like, you asked about earlier, why do teams keep blowing lead? So I can tell you, in the case of the, the wolves, it is a

lack of a point guard and, uh, some pretty low IQ plays. Well, because not having a point guard tends to lower the IQ of your whole team, right? Correct. Minnesota was 0 for 7 against 0 and 7 against teams of winning records for the last two days, too, where they escape with a win in Boston and then they beat the Spurs Sunday night. Boston was one game above 500, but still, it's, Boston just beat Detroit in Cleveland. So counts. The one thing I put out about the Wolves is they were 8 and 10.

They got up to an 8 and 10 start last year and ended up in the conference finals. So, you know, I don't, we'll see if they can get things figured out, but they've got some things to figure out. Point guard, the point guard thing is going to be an issue. And I think the loss in the Keel Alexander Walker hurts. Yeah. They could really use him. They don't have them. Like we've talked about, the Rob Dillingham experiment has not worked.

No, it has not. They've known they needed to replace it from Mike Connolly for years now. That's why they went and got Dillingham. It didn't work. And I think that's something I'm, that's something I'm going to be watching between now and February 5th is do, do the wolves do something to address that position on their team. And if so, what is it? Well, just in general, I think the wolves, you have to look at the wolves, are they going to be a buyer? They're hard up. They don't have much apron space, but they do have, you know, some contracts that they could move if they want to. And they have young players. Who do they have to move? Well, Dante DiVincenzo's contract is movable. Mike Conley's contract.

is movable. Yeah, I guess. Nas Reid, you could probably move. You know, like, not sure about that one. If hypothetically... Plus they've got a number of young players that they could offer up, I mean, if they, if they want it. If hypothetically, if they were going to get in for one of these possibly on the market max point guards, it's probably going to have to be either Julius Randall, J. McDaniels, or Rudy Gobert.

maybe or like a Dante Devencino-Naz-Reed combo and my point is to get in that kind of thing it's like you're plugging one hole and another one spouts open and I just don't think they can turn Nas Reid into anything right now personally but I would be

Nas did have a decent game today and a fine game but I would be surprised if they do do that I think they may be looking you know non-mass player type acquisition, but... Well, Tim Connolly likes to swing big.

Yeah. So I don't know. I just, the point guard position in general, I'm curious, that is one specific team and one specific position I'll be watching for the next two months. Does Minnesota try to do something to change that dynamic on their team? Did you see that Ant talked about how he's had to change his free throw routine because of what Mark Cuban said on... Yeah, and Cuban, I think it was on road tripping with...

I didn't see this at all. What happened? So, Cuba was snitching for sure, but it was like, and blatantly violated. It was a blatant lane violation every time he shot a free throw. Every time he'd shoot a free throw, he'd step over the line. Not by like a wee bit, by like a foot. I did see it. Yeah, that I saw.

Yeah, he didn't, he wasn't stepping over the line to get an edge on the rebound. His just his form. Yeah. He would just step over as he shot. And Cuban said, um, he wasn't. road trip in that, and it was in September, he said that, you know, he told the league it's a violation because a couple years ago, which it was. Do you remember this? I don't remember. I guess Ann hit a couple. I don't remember the game. He hit game winning, free throws against the Mavs. And it must have been home because Cuban didn't go on the road anymore. And Cuban was, I'm sure, pleasantly reminding the referees that that's a lane violation. That's what he said on the podcast, least. But my favorite part was. and said, yeah, I had to change my form because some famous guy went on a podcast or Instagram or whatever. Yeah, he was like, I think he used to own the Mavericks.

I think that's what he said. But like that sounds like, you know, according to what Anne said, the league came to him and was like, hey, we're going to start calling you if he don't change it. So he said, I mean, honestly, though, it was like, he was, his foot was like a foot in the pain after. Yes, by the letter of the law, he was violating. A letter of the law. They called middle school. All right. Well, last year he shot 83%, 84% on free throws, and this year he's shooting 82%.

Well, then I would say it hasn't heard him too much. And I think Ant is probably strong enough to where he can shoot free throws without following. Keep his feet stationary. I think that guy who's built like a freaking outside linebacker probably has the strength where it shouldn't be an issue. He said, you know, I'm a professional basketball player who shoots 200 free throws a day. I can fix it.

Like, it's on me to fix it. Like, he wasn't whining. He just, he was answering why, why he changed his free throw form and that was why. For as much as we've talked about the wolves, it's worth mentioning, the Spurs had a hell of a week going to Portland. Yes, Portland's down guys, but so were the Spurs, no Victor, Stavon Castle, among others. To go to Portland and win, and then to come from behind if you're being down 18 in Denver on Friday, to win and win their group in the cup was awesome. And there is now at least a chance that Victor Wimbunyama will be back

for Lakers Spurs in the Cup quarters, which would be awfully juicy and could potentially set us up, assuming the Thunder'd get another win at home against the Suns, who, to their credit, played them extremely well Friday night and have acquitted themselves very nicely of late. Either Thunder Spurs with Victor Healthy or Thunder Lakers, with Luca and LeBron and co against the champs in Vegas would be pretty fun. Not bad at all. They're five and two since Victor has gone out, including this loss.

And Deeram Fox has been able to get his feed under him. And, you know, there's probably going to be. The cell was the star of Friday night. He could have a other night. I think he had 30. And he's gotten going a little bit. He got off to a bit of a slow start. Kelvin Johnson off the bench has had some.

They've sort of, you know, Dylan Harper come back. He said he hasn't been great. He had a decent game on Sunday. But they've been spread, they've been getting contributions from up and down that lineup. The spurs have pretty good depth. Julian Champany is a quality rotation player that, you know, they have developed. Luke Cornett was a nice signing as a role player. Ideally, he's playing 16 minutes a game behind Wimby.

But, you know, Kelton Johnson is. Dude, Kelm Johnson's having a great year. He's a reserve now, but in 24 minutes, he's averaging 13 points and shooting 57.8% from the floor. And 6.6 rebounds, a third of which are on the offensive end. Like, he's having a really nice year. The Spurs have some real depth, and, you know, we'll see come trade deadline. The Spurs have traditionally not been an aggressive mid-season trade team, but they were last year, and they are equipped to do so again.

Yeah, I want to see what their schedule is coming up ahead of the cup game, because I thought it was favorable, but I'm not finding it to my fingertips right now. But yeah, the cup, you know, every year, the cup's 23 years old, but we've seen teams go into the cup and that experience has helped them. Two years ago, it was, you know, Indiana. last year I do think it helped the thunder to a certain extent. Really? Because all I heard was them whining about how they had a long East Coast trip right afterwards.

Well, whatever. I think it taught them some things. Especially when they lost that title game, cup title game. And, you know, there's a couple of candidates for that this year. You know, Toronto, I think this could, you know, Toronto is a team that's, you know, just now beginning to start to feel itself. And, you know, I think they have an opportunity to play in the cup. and, you know, playing some meaningful games

and do something that that group hasn't done together. I definitely think that could be the case for San Antonio. They haven't played a game like this before. Tell you what, though, you don't want to win that little ribbon, okay? Because the old Lakers and Bucks have been exactly, I wouldn't say that, you know, the elimination success carried over in the playoffs for them. Well, when Indiana made the Cup final, none of us thought they were going to be in the conference finals. And we did think the Thunder would be there.

But I do think it also was beneficial. There's something to playing in games with real stakes, even if it's low stakes and it's not the NBA finals. And, you know, for Orlando, for Toronto, for a Knicks team that's still getting used to a new coach, even though they were in the conference finals last year. Phoenix, I mean, it's been an awesome first six weeks of the season for the Suns. Like that game Friday night, they fought like hell in that game. It's really impressive. Jordan Ott's done a phenomenal job. You know, they're playing well.

It's a lot more fun to be a Phoenix Sun and a Phoenix Sun's fan this year than it has been the last few years. It's a much more fun to be scrappy overachievers than epic underachievers. Well, it's a lot more fun to watch them play. I mean, it's just a totally different vibe. So they, like they've been, and certainly like you said, I mean, especially if they can get Victor back. Like, you know, to have Victor going up against LeBron and Luca in one of these cup quarterfinals would be great. We'll see if it's on the actual court or not after they couldn't play on the Laker. court on Friday got shipped out. But yeah, it should be a pretty good set of quarterfinals and

we'll see who ends up in Vegas in a couple weeks. Maybe I'll see McBan there again. Maybe. We'll see about that. We've got, we got Mac 10 versus Michael Country Wright in the other West semifinals. I don't know. I think whoever wins that one might advance. You're looking for that You're not going there with the old Thundercats if they get a W? I will do as I'm told. Oh, interesting. He's just a soldier. He's just a company man.

He's just a company man. As I said, I signed my contract extension. I'm like the Dwight Powell, the Mavericks or Dwight Powell, BSPN, great company man with remarkable longevity. Yes. You're definitely a company man. That's the first thing people think of you is that you're just a company man who just Never steps out of line at all.

Listen, I wear ESPN gear publicly, frequently, unlike some folks on this podcast. Send me all the ESPN swag. Jackson got me the spur of schedule. Memphis, Orlando, Cavs, Pelicans. So I don't know. I thought Memphis and Pelicans were easier than maybe, or at least Memphis. I thought that, they got to deal with a winning streak there. Just skipped them by Cavs Corner, huh?

Well, that's not looking so hard at the moment. So we discussed that. All right. That's enough. Get up up 95 there, Bontemps. You'll be home at 3 a.m. Yeah. All right. Thank you to Bontems. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Jackson for staying up late. Past midnight on the East Coast. Thank you for listening and watching The Hoop Collective and for getting through the Thanksgiving holiday with us. We will talk to you later this week. Adios amigos.