Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - NBA Finals Game 4 Reaction: Thunder Come Up Clutch

Episode Date: June 14, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN’s Tim Bontemps to react live to Game 4 of the NBA Finals between the Oklahoma City Thunder and the Indiana Pacers. The guys talk some major adjustments from OKC, SGA’s clutch play down the stretch, if the Pacers missed an opportunity, if this series could go 7 and much more! Plus, a surprise appearance from ESPN’s Kendrick Perkins to break down what he expects from the rest of the series. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA Finals, moments after game four ended here, 11-11-104 victory by the Oklahoma City Thunder on the road. Tim Bontemps will be joined in a minute, I think, by Kendrick Perkins when he comes over here, if he comes over here.

Most importantly, no Tim McMahon. No Tim McMahon, thank God. All right. What a basketball game. Yes. So in the second round against the Thunder, I'm sorry, against the Nuggets, the Thunder were down 2-1, they were in Denver. I believe it was a 9-point game.

8-point game. Down 8. Down 8. The MVP took them home. There were other players making other plays, but the MVP took them home in that game. In the fourth quarter of this game. Down 7. Down 7.

3-1. They're not coming back from 3-1. The MVP took them home. We'll talk about why he took him home, but the MVP brought him home. There were other stuff going on, Jalen Williams, Chad Holmgren. There's a million things going on in this game. Million things. But Shea had 15 points in the fourth quarter, and he brought them home,

and he brought the series back to OKC-22. Look, I mean, he, I talked a lot in the last couple days on TV about how this was the defining moment of the career of Shea Gillis Alexander. We have talked a ton about what it will mean if this Thunder team would. wins this series and what it'll mean for Chegis Alexander if he wins this series and likely wins series MVP. And the three-pointer hit on the wing right over here and the baseline jumper he hit basically right where we're sitting to put the thunder ahead for good. Totally off balance. Like somehow got on balance. Well, no. He did the exact move he's done all season. He got exactly to the spot he wanted in the mid-range. He got Aaron Neesmith off balance and it doesn't

look like he's on balance. That's the most comfortable shot. She gives Alexander's And this game, it felt the entire game like the Thunder were down 20. The Pacers were coming at them all over the place. They were knocking down threes all over the place. I think it was plus 27 from the three-point line for Indiana. They dominated the game in a lot of respects. It felt like they should have been up 15 or 20. But much like Indiana's done, a lot in these playoffs,

and like they did in game one, the Thunder hung around. They hung around. They hung around. They stuck in it. Chad Holgren got some big buckets early in the fourth quarter. Caruso, Jaylon Williams, like you said, but they set it up for the MVP. And if you go back to game three, what did we talk about? Shea was gas at the end of the game, right?

Yes. Mark Dagenal changes up his rotation. A lot, we'll get into that. But the biggest thing was, I want to talk about that right now. He kept Shea's minutes down just enough that he had juice at the end and he got it done. All right, I want to talk about a stat. This is a very telling stat, and it's going to seem like it's a bad stat, but I think it's a very telling stat. Okay.

Shea Gillis-Eless Alexander had zero assists in this game. and you're going to see stats about like, boy, that's the first time that's happened since 2020 and all that stuff. And obviously, he probably could have gotten an assist or two. But let me tell you why the zero assist is important. Because what they did, as you just referred to, they took the ball out of his hands. She was Jalen Williams, who was playing essentially a point guard and trigger man for a lot of the first three quarters. Yeah. So that Shea had more energy at the end of the game.

Yes, they played them, I think, two fewer minutes in the first half. So yes, they definitely did that. They changed your starting lineup, but they kept the stress off of Shea. And that is why, at the end, he had more energy. Tyrese Halliburton looked a little tired in this game. I thought Pascal Seacum was absolutely unbelievable for two and a half quarters. And then his energy meter just went down. He did not make, he made like 25 plays in the first two and a half, first two and three quarters.

He did not make a really big play down the stretch. I feel like he ran out of gas. I feel like Halliburton ran out of gas. And one other thing I'm going to say, Neesmith fouls out. Aaron Neesmith fouls out with what, maybe like two, three minutes left on a loose ball foul. There's a lot of things that Benedict Matherin can do, okay? but you don't ideally want Benedict Matherin in at the end of the game because he's not a stable player.

No. He could have games like the last game when he had 27, and he can have games like this game where he's making mistakes left and right, and he had a lot of mistakes. So he misses three free throws, and he has two fouls on inbound's plays. Away from the play fouls and we're free free throws. That's five points. Yep.

He's five points. I mean, he's a 90% free throw through. That's five points. And Matherin was in the game because Nees Smith fouled out. and these Smith fouled out because Shea got the free throws, all these free throws. There were a lot of fouls called in this game both ways. It was... Look, look, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

No, you're fine. The Indiana fans are right now in the street screaming blood and murder about the foul. They have, I think, some merit. I agree. There were a lot, there were some 50-50 calls in this game that went against them. I'll put it. I like to the officiating for the first three games. I really didn't have a single complaint.

Tonight's officiating was not as clean. is the first time in the series we're talking at all about the officiating that's right and and it wasn't by the way it wasn't all scott foster i didn't like the how demonstrative scott was at times and that a little bit worried me because like oh man he's getting his energy up but it wasn't all scott scott foster with three little tees is our guy macbann likes to say okay we may have said to each other while we're sitting watching the game together but the game was decided by shaggillis alexander that's all i'm going to say well listen and well and listen you you you You mentioned the no assists for Shea, right?

Like, look, the Thunder's offense was awful for most of this game. They only had 10 assists in the game. Oh, my three. For so much of the, right, they went three for 17 from three, plus 24 for Indiana from the three point line. And for much of the game, the Thunder couldn't get into anything. It was sort of there were a lot of zero past possessions, one past possessions. The Thunder, you know, really getting stuck in the mud. McMahon and I kept saying, are they going to start moving the ball?

at some point. Indiana's pressure on defense was relentless. They got into the Thunder over and over again. They forced Jaylon Williams into an eighth second violation. The Thunder were constantly throwing the ball all over the place and just never felt like they got out of second gear the whole game. And that was why when you're down seven, I just kept thinking about that fourth quarter of that Nuggets game. And I've been saying for a month, I thought they won the title that day. And look, obviously, I think now if the Thunder do go on to win the series and it's a lot. long way from being over and the Pacers, the last two games have dictated play a lot more than I thought they could, but if they do go on to win the title, it's going to be those 24 minutes, the 12 tonight

and the 12 in Denver, when as you said, the MVP of the league got it done when it mattered, that's going to be what we're going to think back on about the Thunder playoff run. Okay, so before the game, even when I was sitting here the other night, I said I thought the winner of tonight's game would win the series. I'm going to step back from that because I do think that the Pacers, to me, have shown that their best is every bit as good as the Thunder's past. What an unbelievable story. This Pacer's team has been. The level of respect I have for the Pacers, I mean, I covered the entire conference finals. I was home watching the entire first two rounds as my son arrived and I was getting to watch all these games at home. And they've just been

unbelievable in these playoffs. And the way they played in these last two games, the Thunder were completely on their heels. They're a 68-win team, incredible point differential, probably the deepest team in the league, the MVP of the league. They look out of sorts for most of the last two games.

But when it came down to it, we've talked all playoffs about the Pacers stealing games, right? The Pacers stole game one. The Thunder stole back the series by stealing game four. They had no business win in this game. But they found a way,

and as a result, now they have whole court advantage, and like they did it against Denver, it's a best of three with two games at home and they obviously are the favorites to win. Okay, a couple of things. I'm interested to see how, well, first off, let me just say about Chet Holmgren. Chet Holmgren's fourth quarter was tremendous.

Massive, while playing on clearly a gimpy ankle. So, yeah, well, that's what I want to talk about in a second. So, but he's switching out onto Halliburton and staying in front of him. Forced a key airball late on Halliburton when he got the step back you wanted. He had 15 rebounds in this game. How many offensive? Well, they had... Four offensive rebounds, including two or three on dunks in the fourth quarter early on to help the Thunder get back in the game.

The Thunder had four offensive rebounds in the fourth quarter. They scored on all of them. They scored on possession on all of them. That was enormous. But Chet played an absolutely vital fourth quarter. I wonder how his ankle is going to feel on Monday. And I'm also kind of wondering about how Jalen Williams is going to feel. He had...

He had two vicious falls. Oh, my God, in the fourth quarter, and he jumped up like it was nothing. But the fourth quarter fall, like that's... I mean, that second one, he was almost like level with the basket here and fell on his back. I couldn't believe how he fell. So I'm a little interested to see how those guys feel. Pretty good for the thunder that they've got two days off. Yes.

Say that. Yes. Also, Caruso, after really, Curuso played a really substandard game in Game 3. He was amazing in this game. I mean, he had several massive plays getting to the rim and scoring when the Thunder. He was like a cute score for them. Seven for nine. I mean, look, we talked about it last game, right?

You had Benedict Mathuron with the crazy game off the bench tonight. Caruso, 20 points, seven for nine shooting, five steals, right? And at one point, early in the fourth quarter, the Thunder are making a run. Caruso makes a beautiful cut to the basket. Looks like he's got a wide open layup. The ball goes right through his hands. Obie Topping goes down and dunks the ball. All of a sudden, the Thunder are back down seven.

the paces are going crazy, the crowd's into it. You think, man, that might have been it, right? But he was in there late. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. By the way, just as a reminder, Josh Giddy for Alex Caruso. Pretty good trade. Pretty good trade for the Thunder.

You're just calling yourself back on that. No, it's just a reminder that the Thunder last year we're playing Josh Giddy in moments like that. And this year. Cruz will finish the game. Well, right. They've got Alex Caruso, and that's why they got him for moments like that. And he was unbelievable.

He was minus 15 on Wednesday night. He was plus 12 tonight. And it felt like a plus 12. Oh, yeah. By the way, Holmgren was the best plus. I said 15 rebounds. He had 14.

Homegrim was best plus minus the starters. One other thing. Chad is awesome, right? I would really like Chad to stop trying to drive into the lane. These drives to nowhere have not been good for him or for the thunder. Well, he gets. you know, it's tough to go over the top of him, but it's kind of easy to stop him. Well, Miles Turner's just a really good rim protector. He's trying to go at Miles Turner over here.

Well, he runs into things and he's not built for that. Yeah. Also, he took a hellacious shot to the shin. I mean, he's had a, he was, he was, he was getting beat up a lot. I mean, everyone was getting beat up a lot. This, this game was an absolute war. And you know it was going to be a war because the Pacers, look, the Pacers haven't really been talked about. in the same way as the Thunder. Throughout the playoffs, Andrew Nemhart and Aaron Neesmith have played like the Thunder

in that, as we've talked about, the Thunder committed foul in every possession. And so do those two dudes. You saw it last year round. Jalen Brunson's head buttoned Nemhart in the head. He's getting mad about Neesmith. Those guys are banging on you every second of the game. And this game was just,

there were bodies everywhere, their guys limping everywhere. And like you said, by the end of the game, it really was a war of attrition, and it was Shea that pulled it out. A couple of things. The Pacers, as you know, are 14 and 0 in the playoffs when they score 110 or 111.

They're 0.6 now when they don't. Obviously. The team that's built on their offense. The Thunder scored 111 tonight. If the Pacers had scored 111, they would at least gotten overtime. And by the way, Tyrese Halliburton, when he gets to 20 points, I believe they're 33 and 4, got to 18. That's right. And another thing, the team that's won the bench scoring has won each game.

Happened tonight again. The thunder behind Caruso's 20. Also, one of the things that happened with the lineup change, putting the two bigs in the starting lineup, that cleared some more minutes for Kendrick Williams. Kendrick Williams has been pretty good the last two series. Yes. And he played some impactful minutes.

He's a really good player that doesn't get a lot of shine because obviously these guys are the deepest team in the league, but he would be a core rotation player of basically every other team in the league and they can deploy him whenever they want, and he steps in and makes plays he did again tonight. And I also want to say that for as much, I know there's going to be complaining with on the Pacers fans about the officiating.

Their free throws were 3833 in favor of the Thunder, and they took some fouls at the end. Yeah, no, look, I mean, the officiating was sort of all over the place. There were a lot of calls, but it's not why the game was won or lost. The game was won or lost because the Thunder

did to the Pacers, what the Pacers have done over and over again in the playoffs, which is relentlessly close and wear down their opponent. And I still can't really believe they did it. It certainly felt like their season was going to be hanging on by a thread. And, you know, we've been fortunate enough to cover a lot of playoff games. And, I mean, I was thinking about game six in OKC and that fourth quarter from Clay Thompson.

I mean, there's a lot of games like that where you get to the final quarter or the final half of a game like this with big stakes. We talked about it on the pod today. games, the favorite team on the road in game six or game four to either tie the series or avoid elimination, that game six was the same thing with Clay. These are when some of the greatest moments in the history of the league have happened. You were there for LeBron in 2012, in Boston, in game six. If they win the series, that Chegill's Alexander sequence, that's going to go in his

all-time high line. It kind of reminds me of, so Shea had 35. Yeah. 2022 in Boston Celtics are head 2-1 Yep Another one

Warriors are the favorite team The home court Home court team Steph has 43 In game four Swings the series That ended in six I don't know

I don't actually have a good feel now If the Thunder had won this game Like with a emphatically I would have felt differently Because the Thunder outplayed them The first two Yeah I mean look

I'm done counting out the Pacers, but I agree. But that being said, this felt like the chance. Like when you have a chance to put a team like the Thunder and you put your foot on their throat, you can't let them off the mat. You just can't. Seven points with 10 minutes left. And you've talked about it a lot. The key to Indiana's run through the playoffs has been stealing a game in every series.

The one time they gave a game back was when they gave back game three here against the Knicks, right when Carl Towns matched the 20 Indiana scored with 20 of his own. The thing was, though, Indiana had already stole game one with the shot by Halbert and at the end. And you could argue they stole game two. Once the Ackham had 39, the rest of the paces didn't do much. Yeah, I wouldn't say they stole it, but they were up two breaks. Right. So they had one to give back and they had game four left.

This one, this was the chance to hold home court, to have three shots to win one. I mean, I'm not, I'm not ruling them out. They've shown me a ton, but. I don't know. At this point, my only strong feeling is that it's going to go seven. Because the Pacers, you know... It feels like the Denver series. The Pacers have played 39 games, I think, 39, 40 games without losing two in a row.

Okay? So, you know, I'm not going to assume they're going to lose... Not going to assume they're going to lose Monday. Or three in a row, for that matter. Right. And then the... The... Show that to me again, Jackson.

I got it. So I asked Jackson to have this ready. So Jaylon Williams brought the ball up. Hold on. We'll do that in a second because I don't want to lose track of this. Okay. The Thunder are 18 and 2 after a loss, now 6 and 0 in the playoffs. Yeah.

So, all right. Well, what was that stat? The stat is Jaylon Williams brought the ball up a series high 25 times in game four. I asked Jackson to do that in the first quarter. Because I'm not sure Shay brought it up once in the first quarter, at least until late in the late in it when Jaylin was out of the game. I mean, it was, like you said, it was a clearly intentional move by the Thunder to try to make sure that he didn't get worn out as the game went up.

Initially, I didn't like it because I was like, damn, the Thunder are like changing everything to deal with the Pacers. Like, you know, play your game. Play your 68 win game. But, you know, they are, you got it done. I will say this. They're reacting to what they're seeing. Like, they're rolling their sleeves up after every game and they're reacting to what they're seeing. And I'll never forget, this is a couple years ago now.

but I asked, I think it was last spring. I asked Mark Daydahl in Philadelphia. They were playing the Sixers. They're in like March or April, later in the season. And I asked them about how they change their lineups all the time. During the regular season, right? Like, NBA players are creatures of habit. They like to know when they're coming in the game.

They like to know a rhythm and a routine and know what they're going to do and how they're going to get their shots and what they're going to do, right? The Thunder are the absolute antithesis of that. They're playing different guys or sitting guys, some games. They're starting different lineups all the time. And I asked him, like, how do you get your guys to buy into that? And his response was, look, our goal is to try to win in the playoffs. And you see all the time teams get in the playoffs and they make changes.

And their players aren't ready for it because they've done it one way, the whole year. And then it completely upends them, right? We're testing stuff and trying stuff all the time. So when we get to this point of the year, if we try something new, everyone just rolls with it because we've been doing it the whole time. You don't see a lot of teams do that. But in a moment like this, with their backs, absolutely. absolutely against the wall. Yeah, they tried a lot of stuff. Some of it worked. Isaiah Hartnstein had a pretty rough game, but he was good in the fourth quarter.

You know, they changed his rotation completely up. He always plays the whole first quarter. He came out halfway through the first and the third. They brought him back in. They took him on. They did double. They gave him multiple subs in each half to make sure he was ready to go at the end of the game. They even got him about a minute in the fourth quarter of this game. Forty-three-eight seconds. Forty-five seconds, something like that. Again, making sure he would have enough to be there at the end. And that takes a lot of confidence in knowing that you're going to trust

the process you have. The Thunder or the ultimate process team. And it's a big part, I think, of why they pulled this one out. Well, one more thing to say about Jaylon Williams. So this was an absolute monster performance from him. Incredible. He was 11 of 11 at the line.

Shea and Jalen 21 to 21. I mean, look, on the road. Yeah, come on, man. We've talked so much about Jaylon Williams, right? Can he do it in these moments. He was unbelievable in game four in Minnesota. And that was a different situation. They were up in the series.

Obviously, they lost game three big. But it's one thing if you're up to one trying to go up three one. Their season is on the line. And for much of the game, it was Jalen Williams by himself carrying this team along. He had, I think, a 32-point game in Denver in that game four, maybe? I think it was game five. Okay. That's one of those games.

I think it was in, anyway. He had a huge shot at the end of game four. He had the three on the wing. Then I think he had a big game five. But look, regardless. I think those games are on the road. Anyway, he has two 30-point road games in the playoffs and this one, 27, but it was... I mean, he's been...

He was unbelievable. I mean, he's answering the bell. And like you said, he's handling the point most of the game. He's playing defense at the other end, making big plays, being physical, getting to the rim, making some sick moves. I mean, he was absolutely unbelievable in this game. And this game was just great. Yeah.

It was awesome. Tyrese Hallberg was making great plays. Every drive he got to the rim felt like a circus shot. First off, there's guys all over the floor. Everywhere. There's guys just sprawling all over the place. And the one thing I really like about watching these two teams play, you know,

obviously there's individual situations where this is not true, but they're playing smart. Oh. There's a high IQ. Super high IQ games. High IQ series. Yes. Doing like just super high level stuff.

All these back cuts, changing rotations, changing coverages, making it harder on the other team, you know, totally switching up what you're doing to try to throw them off. And we've seen throughout this series at times, the Pacers have looked from, on the back foot, times the thunder have looked completely on the back foot. And I mean,

it's, I mean, we talked a lot about it. We thought this is going to be a really fun series. It's been awesome. It's been so, so awesome to watch. I think we might have missed Perk. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Perk's busy. He's got things going on. Perk, by the way, just want you to know, Perk has said to me like four times in the last month, when am I coming on in the podcast? And I'm like, Perk, because, like two years ago perk was supposed to have rid of

McMahon and have perk? It'd be great. Two years ago like Perk was supposed to be on the podcast and like, then he's like, and he never showed for one game. Oh, I remember. Yeah, so I'm like, you know, there's a reason why we kept saying, we'll see who the guests are. Yeah, and so, but he was, he was on me. He was like, well, what about, come on, you got to have me on, you got to have me on.

And everybody wants to be on the number one podcast, the Hube Collective. And so I checked with them, I said, Perk, you're going to come on, right? Yeah, and then he walked out here a second ago. I just saw him. I shook his hand on the way over here. And he's like, all right, I'll be back in just a minute. He didn't come back. Well, you know.

What are you going to do? At least the answer. I don't even know where he's at. I don't know. Well, he's greeting the people. Where is he? Oh. It's all right.

He's got things going on. He's talking to Thunder personnel. He's got to make sure his tickets are okay for a game fight. All right. Thank you, Mr. Bontems. You're welcome. Thank you to Rafaa and Jackson and Blair, our producers. Thank you for listening and watching the Hoop Collective.

We're back with a podcast that comes out on Monday. I think McMahon reserved our table at the tipsy-tiki. You don't say. Yeah. He kind of likes going there. You know, McMahon, last week when we recorded the tipsy-tiki, it was a weekend, right? It was a Saturday afternoon. And we wrapped at about 4.30.

About 425. And McMahon's tie was off and the was on his table at about 432. I think it was about 428. Yeah, he previously, he like gave them. a nod to bring it over. Didn't even, just looked. Yeah. Just looked.

And it was ready. And he stayed there for quite some time, I believe. I mean, listen, McBan, McBan knows his way around Bricktown and it's, uh, here comes, here comes the big man. Some, I,

we, we like stretched it out. We did. Hello, Perk. How are you doing? Kirk, we've had, we've said everything we're going to say.

That's a nice tie, by the way. Today? Today? Okay. I'm picking my time. Did you buy a bunch of ties because you're going to be on the road to game seven? No, I'm going home.

Oh, that's right. You go home. All right. So, Bontemp's and I said all we're going to say. What are you going to say? What are you going to say? What are you going to say about this game? I agree.

For the big three, this was a game that this was a legacy moment. No question. Chit home with defensively in the fourth quarter. Jake Doug rising to the occasion, first, second, third quarter. and SGA taking them home. And that damn Alex Caruso. Like, they just kept chipping the way. They kept weather in the storm.

From the first quarter, second quarter, third quarter, they kept weather in the storm. And I told Malika up there, I said Malika, these first three minutes of this fourth go tell me everything I need to know. And all of a sudden, they came out fine. The game was tied by the end of the first three minutes of the fourth quarter. There was a moment in the third quarter where I think maybe they pushed it to 10 maybe. and the Thunder Called timeout.

And it was like, this is a huge moment. This is their season. And they got it back to seven, which, look, that's not great, but it could have been 15, 18, and they got it back. They got it back. And look, I thought Coach Dad, I thought Kimbrick Williams. Yeah. He only played, what, 14 minutes or something like that?

11. 11 minutes, but they were impactful. They were impactful. I thought, I thought I noticed also. why Coach Dagnot wasn't high on that big lineup. It don't really work against them. I think it worked in spurts, but Luke Dorts too. The pressure, the fighting over screens.

Again, this was one of those wins where the thunderlight, you get on the plane and you can exhale and be like, man, we really have togetherness. Yeah, and I also thought we were talking, we already talked about it, but they saved Shea's energy for the fourth quarter. They did. did a great job of subbing them in and out. What, Jay Dubb was the prompt. He basically played the point all

that's right. That's right. I thought he did an outstanding job. The thing that I noticed about the Thunder, if you look at them throughout, if you look at their past throughout this postseason, they always bounce back. They bounce back for a reason because their team of film. We got to remember, this is

a young team that watch a lot of film and they're learning on the spot. So, once say, She said it the other day. We lose a game, I watch it, and then I let it go. I learn from it and I let it go. And that stuck with me, and I knew they was going to come

out and learn from the mistakes. They still had a few careless turnovers, but they still did some great things that they didn't do in game three. 18 and 2 after losses for a reason. They said 3 for 17 from the 3 and 1's game. Crazy. Three for 17. Like, they're not going to...

It hasn't happened in a finals game in 15 years. happened with the Lakers. They're not going to shoot this poorly again, in my opinion. I would agree. Paces losing a game at home, plus 24 from the three-point line. It's tough. I agree. Well, that's what you were saying.

Bontem said it, if you're the Pacers. Now, look, there's a lot to go, but, like, they're up by seven at home to go up three-one. Fourth quarter, that's tough, man. It's a tough on the swallow. I think, if I look at this roster, though, I think Kimmerie Williams, more minutes. Case on Wallace haven't been there, you know. Yeah, they had to pull them. They had to pull them out.

And I think somebody is going to step up outside of Alice Caruso at the crib. But that damn Alice Caruso, man, I can't say enough about him. Well, he just, he didn't do great in game three. Yeah, but he did. Oh, he did do great tonight. I mean, the stepbacks, the creating his own shots and getting out in transition. Overall, I mean, I just was impressed with the thunder, the way that they grew up. stayed in the moment, never got rattled, never, like, always stayed together.

And again, that damn Chet Homegrid and what he's done defensively in that four, being able to switch out on the Piggum, Rows, hedge out, I thought was huge. Now, here's the question about Indiana. I thought Indiana was better. They were better defensively when they had Seacum and O.B. topping on the floor. I thought the thunder eyes lit up once my alternative. check back into the game. They quickly started picking on them, especially Jalen Williams in the picking road. Rick Caller is going to have to make a tough decision in game five because the athleticism

or OB Topin is needed, especially when it comes down to Gordon these picking roads. Topping was really good tonight. Oh, he was awesome. He was awesome. It was awesome. It was tough to lose a game when Obie Topping goes seven for 12 and has 17 and seven off the bench, but he was minus 12. Perk, I thought whoever would win this game was going to win the series. I'm stepping back from that because I just... Why doesn't like to make predictions, Perk? Because I think the Pacers... I know, I know.

I know. I'm setting up for that. Pacers have really proven that there's not separation between these teams. No, it's not. This is great. If you're not enjoying these finals, then you're not a hoop head. Yeah. Like, both of these teams. That's awesome.

Both of them, both from top to bottom. So it's going to be interesting. I think like this. This is the moment in the game five. Well, I want to see Tyrese Halliburton elevate even more. Like, I want to see if he could go on the road and give you that 30 piece on the road. He's done it. I want to see if he could do it on this stage.

The 22 points, he had last game, almost flirting with a triple double. That was cool. But I still want to see more from him. Yeah, the 32 and 15 game here too. Yeah. You know, he's hit the shots. No, I'm saying here last round. here in the end. Like you sit the big

shots on the road. He hasn't had the big games to your point. And that's the point. The superstars, road players, you know, go play well at home. You could credit C.J. McConnell, Ben Mathrin. They won you a game three. You know, now it's time for you to win them one on

the road. Pascal Seacom, though, has been fantastic. I'm just looking forward to Monday. It's going to be awesome. Your son's waiting for you over there. With his badass. All right. Thanks, Perk. Thank you for watching. We'll talk to you on Sunday, or on Monday. Adios, everybody.