Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - OKC Takes Control, Disaster For Cavs, Knicks & Warriors Must Wins? + NBA Draft Lottery Storylines

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk the Thunder getting it done in the clutch, why OKC has been able to get Jokic tired, the Pacers’ dominant performance, if this season may be a disappointment for the Cavs, if the Knicks need to win at MSG after Boston bounced back this weekend, Julius Randle’s elevated play for Minnesota and why the Warriors missed a big opportunity. Plus, the guys talk what they are most excited about with the NBA Draft Lottery. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Guess who was at the New York Knicks Boston Celtics game three on Saturday, making his first appearance in the garden since fatherhood. Tim Bontems. Hello, everybody. Joining us from Denver, Colorado, where he was at the pivotal game for today between the Thunder and Nuggets, which will not be being shipped to Springfield, but was an important game nonetheless,

is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners. You know what? I play Sunday morning pickup ball in the summers, and the shooting in the first half, especially of this game, reminded me a little bit of those runs. Well, I guess we'll start right there, just to lay in Cavs corner here. I think, first off, the Thunder were facing some adversity about how to handle clutch time, because it was very clear that they struggled earlier in this. series. And they had to sit around for two days and listen to how She goes to Alexander was 0 of seven and all that. And they found themselves in a clutch time game. However, it got there, it was a clutch time game. And the nuggets were throwing zone and double teams at Shea. And he was basically having to pass a lot. And he came in the game with nine minutes left. I think it was a one point

game. It was whatever was his one or two possession game, very close. And Shea won the day going down the stretch. He will not be putting that game in his career highlights. He will. He's probably had 200 games where he's had better fourth quarters. But he delivered what the thunder needed. And it was an absolute mud game, street fight. Every loose ball was nasty. Very little skill on display. But McMahon, he did what he had to do.

He scored, I think, nine points in the fourth. And got the thunder to 2-2, which was all that matters. Yeah, and Shea did not have a bucket in the second half. He had a few free throws, but not a bucket in the second half until there was 436 remaining. He was finally able to kind of slither through a crack in the defense, which we all know he's great at, but the Nuggets have done an amazing job defending him schematically and just from an individual effort standpoint. But he's finally able to slither through crack, boom, hit the little floater, almost a layup. Five-second violation for the Nuggets, like coming out of a time.

out there, boom, hits a turnaround. Then, you know, a little over two minutes left kind of hit a dagger layup. So we had three buckets in crunch time. That equaled the Thunder team's entire total in Crunchtime of their two losses in this series. The whole reason that this series is competitive is because the Thunder struggled so much in Crunch Time in game one, which they collapsed. in game three when they had to, they scored two points in overtime after, you know, blown a lead down to stretch.

And look, give the Nuggets credit defensively, obviously Aaron Gordon's hit some huge shots, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, that was big. Oklahoma City's depth, you know, people talk about depth doesn't matter during the playoffs and, you know, the rotations get tightened, da, da, da, da, da. Oklahoma City's depth was also huge in this game. And on a night where damn near everybody on both teams couldn't buy a bucket, Aaron Wiggins hit some huge shots.

Cason Wallace, who was playing a lot in this game, in part because Lou Dort was not only struggling to make shots, but was not being guarded. Casein Wallace had some big shots. Alex Caruso, those three guys getting double figures off the bench is what kind of got allowed the thunder to regain the lead in the fourth quarter. And man, Joker doesn't want to talk about fatigue, but fellas, seven games and 13 days for the Nuggets.

This one being a very quick turnaround from a late tip Friday night that went in overtime to the early tip, prime time in Serbia, early afternoon tip today. So what, I don't know what, 38 hours later, whatever the hell the math is. Dude, this was the ugliest first quarter of basketball I've ever seen an NBA playoff game. They combined for 25 points. The Nuggets scored eight points in the first quarter. these two teams combined to miss 32 of their first 33 three-pointers. This was a hideous basketball game that was just competitive down the stretch. Yeah, I mean, I think Brian calling it a game that was in the mud is a perfect way to describe it.

I mean, these were two teams that looked tired that look like they played, like you said, 36 hours after an overtime game at altitude. There was no legs on either side. You saw that in the jumpers for everybody. Jumpers were all over the place. That's what happens when you got tired legs. And in a game like that, you just need to find a way to pull it out, especially when you're a Thunder team that saw that early disaster, even more disastrous offense from Denver, completely flip around. Denver takes the lead. Looks like they're going to pull the game away.

You mentioned the depth, Aaron Wiggins and Jason Wallace had back to back threes early in the fourth quarter, immediately get them back in touch distance. Then they bring Shay in. And like you said, wasn't a pretty game from Shay. Stat line wasn't perfect. but he made the plays that mattered late. He made sure they got the win. And as he said after the game, zero zero, the first of two wins. They got two games at home.

They get home corner advantage back. And with the deeper, younger team, you have to give the edge of the thunder going forward in the series just because of the fact that, as you said, Denver's coming off to seven game series. They look tired. Joker two for seven in the fourth quarter, one for four from the foul line. he looked tired. The Nuggets as a team look tired,

and you've got to think, as this thing continues to be every other day for the rest of this week, it feels like an edge for the Thunder. And this game felt like to me that when that fourth quarter started and the Nuggets were winning, I mean, you were there, McMahon.

I don't know what you thought. I thought this was the series today. If Denver could find a way to get this game at home, I didn't think Yilkutche was losing three in a row. I feel like now that it's two-two, I'm not certainly not counting Denver out, but I think the thunder will find a way to get two of these next three in advance. I don't think I don't think Yokic is tired.

I think he's exhausted. Sure. And look, let's also, I agree with you. And part of the reason he's exhausted, he had to bang with Vita Zubots for seven games. Now he's dealing with Isaiah Hardinstein. Then they're bringing Jalen Williams, Jay Will, who's just, look, if they whistle him for foul, whoop to do, he's going to play 12 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 max, like, okay. And they're playing physical.

as hell with them. They're swarming all around that. Honestly, I'm baffled that in game one, Chet Hongrim spent the most time on Joker as the primary defender. I think if they had Hartenstein start off on them and Jay Will come in on them, this rotation, I think this is 3-1 OKC with a chance to close it out in game five. So you're going to see a lot of stats about Yokic's last three games, bad shooting. I'm not calling a three. I'm calling it seven because I'm going all the way back. to games 5, 6, and 7 of the Clippers series, where I felt he was off. And this is a guy who, over the last three playoffs,

has shot 56% from the field, okay? Efficiency Master, in these seven games. And so the reason I'm going to seven is it's a bigger sample size for me. He's shooting 40%. Okay? Well, and in these three, he's shooting 33.3. It's the worst three-game shooting stretch of his career. Right, but I got that.

You're going to see that 10,000 places tomorrow. I'm saying, look at the last seven games. Right. He hasn't had a bad for six days. He's had a bad 15 days. He's shooting 26% on threes in there. And I'm going to tell you something else. Two other things I think you're going to see.

This is a guy who shoots awesome at the foul line. He's never had a season where he shot under 80% at the foul line. Last year in the playoffs, he shot 90% at the foul line. He's shooting 75%. So his huge misses. in the fourth quarter today. Maybe the biggest misses of the game were at the free to line. I think he's exhausted.

He's averaging five turnovers a game. I think he's exhausted. Now, I know that his exhausted doesn't look like the average player is exhausted. Guys, they're playing six players. I mean, Peyton Watson's barely playing. Well, and also remember, we're talking about a guy who was carrying this team all season. Jamal Murray banged up in another lineup at times. Aaron Gordon missed 30 games.

Like they have had injuries throughout the year. And Yolkits himself has had some injuries, which typically hasn't had and has played through stuff and has been unbelievable all season. Right. And like I think it's a cumulative effect of all of that stuff. And we even talked about it watching that Nuggets Clippers series. That felt like a conference semi-final. And the thunder on the other side swept the grizzlies and were chilling. And they still look tired playing these guys.

Career high, by the way. Career high, 37 minutes a game this year. Yeah, I mean, these games are physical slug fest. The last series was a physical slug fest. He's banging on Zubotch, the whole series, right? Like, he's having to deal with him the whole time. Like, it's just a heavy, heavy load. And even in this series, he's got, like you said, McMahon, he's got Hartnstein and

Chet Holmgren, both on him, just making life difficult. He's got to work for every shot. They've got dork banging on it. Like, Jason Williams is coming in and just like wrestling with them. Depth and size. Depth and size. it's nice to have. Well, and then you've got guys, you got your help defenders, you know, obviously

chats a lot of times that on a backline help defender, but you've got Caruso swarming in. You got Kason Wallace, you know, J. Len Williams, Jay Dub, these guys that are just great hands, great, like, active. I don't even call them help. Like, to me, when the Thundersen, a second guy, it's not even help defense. It's harassed defense. Yeah. And, like, as bad as Joker's shooting has been, and again,

Again, 15 to 29 in game one, which by his is still subpar by his standards. He's 21 of 63 in the last few games. And there's some heaves in there, including one at the fourth quarter buzzer. He's just out of habit when they're down five today. But still, like, he can't buy a jumper right now. And then he's so good at those touch baskets. Like he brought up a little hook that he had. Couldn't get that to go down.

Just doesn't have that same touch right now. the most glaring joker offensive stat to me right now in this series is assist to turnover ratio 19 assists 23 turnovers you never see remarkably low assist extraordinarily high turnover i'm i'm going to give you a couple stats here that just explain this encapsulation perfectly the nuggets had 20 points in the paint today so geez forget about the fact that your legs are dead, okay, for you jumpers. 20 points in the paint. That is the lowest the Nuggets have had in any game for 15 years.

I mean, Joker gets 20 in a pain in a lot of games. This is the team that's had an elite offense not shooting threes all season. Okay. And for the last couple seasons. And now I'm going to tell you this. They shot 45 threes today, the most they've ever shot in a playoff game in franchise history. So here we have a team that is dragon ass can't get, just not even able to get into

the paint and they're bailing out. the Thunder by just hoist and threes. And they missed their first 16 threes. And I'm telling you, at least three or four of them were airballs. Yeah. Well, and by the way, speaking of that, I think that, you know, you could say some stuff about Mark Dagnolton, the way he coached this game. The zone offense for the Thunder was not exactly great at times.

There was a lot of like one pass and shoot possessions. But it took some stones down to one in the series to not play Lou Dort in the fourth quarter of this game. he shouldn't have played Lou Dork in the fourth quarter of this game. They were leaving him wide open, letting him shoot the ball. He couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. And he goes to Cason Wallace. He goes to Aaron Wiggins.

He goes to Caruso. Those guys all made huge plays. Dort doesn't play the whole fourth quarter. It's a big part of why they won the game. Yeah, those two guys not only were double figure scores, but plus minus. Caruso plus 12. Cason Wallace plus 12. Wiggins plus 14.

It was that depth and those dudes that got him in position to win. and then Shea was able to close the door. Yeah, for sure. It was just a big thing for him to do that because it would be very easy to say, hey, we're in trouble, we're going to go with the guys that got us here, and I don't think they would have won if they'd done that.

By the way, as poorly as Lou shot the ball, and he was two of ten from the floor and from three-point range, all his shots were threes. They're not guarding him. As poor as he shot it, he was the only Thunder starter to hit a three-pointer today. Shea 0-0-0-0-0-5. Jaylon Williams, who had a really rough game.

The Thunder bench won him again. The Benz, scoring was 35 to 8. And part of the reason is the nuggets don't play anybody. Well, and also another part of the reason is Russ was awful today. Six points, two or 12, fouled out, had four fouls in the fourth quarter. It was a huge reason that the Thunder were in the bonus in the fourth quarter was six and a half minutes to go.

Just was out of control. And like this was a really, it was a bad Russ game, really bad Russ game. And like you said, he's basically the only guy they play. off the bench. Peyton Watson played nine minutes, and then they dusted Julian Strother off for five minutes today. Yeah,

I'm not counting it. I'm saying they're playing six and a half players, basically. You're right. Look, I'm not putting anything past Joker Tuesday. He could come in and look fresh as a daisy in Oklahoma City. I'm just telling you, I know that when I begin talking to the producers

for first take tomorrow, they're going to be saying, when do you sleep update? Well, get up. I'll be up at 3.45 a. I'm in L.A. Oh, wow. I was with Bon Temps yesterday in New York.

Oh, when travel update. It's a really tough. It's a really tough life that he's got. Honestly, it is pretty tough. But go on. I will just,

I will, hold on, let Wendy finish. I interrupted him so rudely. It was like six flights that left at Newark today. And I luckily, it was on one of them. So I wouldn't put anything past them.

But while there's going to be like this, is this a referendum game on the MVP race and everything like that? Because, you know, that MVP, to announce the schedule coming up and I'm thinking it's coming this week right um certainly should be all-n-b-a and a VP should be this week I'm it's going to be boring but I'm just going to say yo gets just tired he is and and honestly shea has not had efficiency can be a tough thing to hold up as a

standard in the playoffs when these things it's just gritty and grimy but shea by his standards has had two good performances in the playoffs two. He's had like four games where he's shot under 40%, I think, three or four games. I mean, that just doesn't happen. And again, today it was a real struggle for him and that zone is really giving him problems. It's in some ways it's almost a boxing one on him. And he's just not, he's so good at slithering into the cracks of the defense. He just hasn't been able to do that until it was crunch time. And unlike game one and game three, Shay got it done with the game on the line today. Well, when you were at game five of this round last year in Oklahoma City, and it was 2-2,

and an all-time great player was on the other side coming into Oklahoma City, just like now, right? And Oklahoma City couldn't get it done. They lost a series in six games. Safe to say that they better win this game at home in game five. You do not want to be, if you're the Thunder, it's very easy to say, but you do not want to be down three-two going back to Denver with this guy having a chance to close a series out on you because I feel pretty confident if they are able to find a way to win game five, Nicole Yoko-Chank to have a bad game in that game six.

Doesn't mean the Thunder can't win, but if he's going to, I mean, I'm going to count on that guy to summon it in a chance to close the series out. So they'd be very advised to take care of home. The miracle of the last few games is in the worst shooting stretch of Joker's career, the Nuggets were able to salvage one win. I was just going to say, we haven't talked about him one second this whole time, but we should shout out Aaron Gordon,

who continues to be on. He's having the best playoffs of his career, and he was a defining player for them when they won the title two years ago. Even with that on his resume. He's hit two game winners and another OT forcing shot in the last 30 seconds of the fourth quarter. And he's out there. He's a big part of what's given Shay trouble. Yeah, he's out there smothering Shea, like a lot. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

All right, Cavs Corner. Oh, boy. Pacers Lane right now. Again. Yeah, Cavs Corner. There's some boarded up. windows right now, baby. There's going to be a lot of focus on Monday and Tuesday about, you know, the 64 win calves, you know, failing and whatnot, which we will discuss in a second. But I do not

want to short shrift the Indiana Pacers, who since January 1st are now 41 and 16. And who came out in this game and crushed the calves. To me, this is a series. There's been two things about this series. One has been the Cavs injuries, but whatever. And to be continued on that one. We'll get there. Two has been the calves, or two has been the who wins the pace of play. The Pacers have controlled the pace of play in three of the four games. In game three, the Cavs threw a zone defense out there. They slowed Indiana down, 104 points in that game for Indiana. You could tell from the opening tip off, the Pacers were like, I don't know who's going to win, but we're going to play our speed.

and they totally impose their will of the pace of play. And that is their strategy. Their strategy is to play faster than you want to play. Their strategy is to wear you out. Their strategy is to play physical and rough and hard. And it's annoying if you're the opponent and it's working. Dude, they scored 80 points in the first half. They more than doubled up the cavaliers.

They scored more points in the first half than the Nuggets and Thunder combined. to score in the first half of the game that I covered here in Denver. And by the way, Halliburton had 11 points. It wasn't like he had 40. Well, he certainly didn't need to. And you could see from the opening tip of the game that the calves are totally on tilt. Kenny Ackton is talking a lot about the physicality in the series over the first couple of games. They look like a team that couldn't handle it.

Max Drews, 90 seconds into the game is getting into it with Pascal Seaccom for really no reason. I know obviously Bennett, Mathur and got ejected. But I'm just relax. We'll get there. My point, you can talk about it later. The point is, if you watch how the whole first half played out, the calves, it wasn't just that the Pacers were playing well. The Cavs were completely out of sorts.

Totally agree. From Jump Street. And they didn't look mentally in the game from the beginning. And that, to your point, it's a total credit to the Pacers for the way they have physically worn them down as the series has gone on, even in the fourth quarter of game three. when they're up in the game, you know, the Pacers still got back in the game, were physical, made them uncomfortable. It's been the theme of the series of the first four games.

Regardless of the injuries, the Cavs were not mentally strong in this game, period. The Pacers were mentally a rock in this game. All right. The most important thing I think coming out of this game, however, is the stale health status of Donovan Mitchell. Not great. So he was warming up. for the second half and there's footage of it. It's TNT footage from the camera that's in the it's in the backboard. And he's out there early. He's, you know, he's one of the first players out there.

And he goes to like rise up to take a three-pointer. And he stops himself and goes down, like, crouches down and starts, you know, grabbing his leg. And he walks off and never comes back. He's having an MRI on Monday. The calves reported to me. be a left ankle injury. So I am not in position to dispute that. I am just saying that he never got off the ground. And he'd been dealing with left calf issues for a while. He'd been dealing with left calf issues throughout the series. And, you know, this happened last year. He had to play a lot of extra hard minutes in the early part of the playoff games, started having left calf issues, tweaked it in the middle of the series against

what was the second round series against the Boston Celtics missed the last two games. In this series, he has had to carry an enormous load. Now, he is playing amazing. He came in averaging over 40 points a game in the series. He had 33 in game one, 48 in game two,

43 in game three. He doesn't have crazy minutes. He hasn't played more than 37 minutes, but they're hard minutes, hard minutes. He's, you know, because Garland's been out, he's had to play point guard. And I don't, look, if he can't play, you know, if you're trying to construct some sort of three one comeback. Yeah. Wrap it up.

Uh, Garland. Especially with Darius Garland, not looking right at all. Garland's playing with some modified shoe to hold his toe in place. Look, the Casver, if they pull off a comeback in the series, it's going to be miraculous. And the thing that's really tough is a second round exit for the Cavaliers this season is a massive disappointment. They played themselves into much, much higher expectations than they had entering the season. So if they get waxed in the second round, if they get booted in five games, even six games, whatever, then it is a huge, huge disappointment. where that, you know,

not like none of us thought they were contenders coming in the season, but then you have to, like, you know, you're watching them and their best record in the East, and, you know, they changed. They raised the bar for themselves. So look, they are now facing potentially all three of their all-stars getting hurt in the series. So it's a, as, as, you know, they had one of the worst injury runs in 2000, uh, 15 final.

for 2015 playoffs where Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving were knocked out. You know, Irving, not until the finals, but, you know, that is horrendous injury luck. And by the way, the Cavas protected those guys

throughout the whole year. Everybody pretty much had their career lows in minutes. So, you know, like, it's not like they were working him out through the year. And that's just, I mean, at the same time, Evan, you know, Well, look, Evan Mowbley had an ankle sprain to miss one game.

And, you know, Darius Garland has missed a couple games with his toe injury, yes. But they were a 64-1 team that talked all year about their depth and now they were playing through the year. And it doesn't excuse the fact that they've been fairly handled throughout the first four games of the series. Right. So let me just say this. As you know, in any series, teams that win the championship, go on the road and get slapped in an individual one-off playoff game.

Whether you lose by 85 points or you lose by 15 points, you get blown out, it happens. Okay. Happen on the nuggets in game two, they won game three. The Pacers were brilliant in this game. The calves were horrible. You put those two things together. That's why you get this lopsided. The reason why the calves are down 3-1 in the series is because they botched game two.

Yep. And the Pacers made some incredible plays down the stretch, particularly Halliburton. The Stepback three was an absolute dagger's dagger. The hustle. He didn't get fine for the big balls dance. They just didn't have it in them. Joe Dumas left and they were like, you know what? That's fine.

Listen, Papa Halliburton standing from the TV waving that towel. I mean, it was a hell of moment. Look, all of this is elementary, though, right? It doesn't really matter. The bottom line is they're down 3-1, and they're on the verge of losing the series and having their season end, way early. And as Tim said, it would be a massive disappointment. You just have to call it like it is. Here's a stat for you.

There are 28 teams in the history of the league that have won at least 64 games. The calves are one of them. So there's 27 others. Two of those teams didn't get out of the second round of the playoffs. Yeah, I'm going to. The 67, hold on. I'm going to stop. No.

No. Trivias time. Trivia time. No. You can't, you can't discount the fact that they have, well, we'll talk about a second. I want to stop. No, you can't. You have four, four of their core players injured.

Oh, is it the Cads Corner excuse maker? Hold on. Come on. Come on. You can't compare historically. Those teams didn't have all these injuries. Excuse is next. First excuses next.

67 win Mavs. It lost to the We Believe Warriors. Mm-hmm. And then the spurred. Did Dirk get hurried to miss games in that series? I can't remember. Tim, you were at, you were at this, you were at this team's demise. I was at this.

The other team, both of them. 67 win Mavs. Yeah. I was going to say the 2011 Spurs, they didn't win that many games. Oh, it was the 60 win spurs when Kauai sprained his ankle. No, no, I wasn't at that one. They lost in the conference finals. Oh, that's right.

A lot of teams lost in the conference finals. I was at the team's demise. This was in the conference semifinals. Mm-hmm. Recent years. Gally, I'm getting old. I could give you one more hint, but you will then know the answer. All right.

Give me one more hint. Oh, the Mazz. That wasn't at that. No. No. The Mavs won the game. Oh, duh. Yeah, the, yeah, you talk about a playoff debacle, game seven in Phoenix.

That's right. Correct. That's right. That's Sun's team. Yeah, I'd forgotten that the Sun's team. It was, you know, they were in, they were, there was allegedly COVID going through their team. So it might be somewhat comparable. Although, listen, Wendy, you're making a bunch of excuses.

Well, they lost game one at home. They got completely waxed today. Like, they don't deserve to be. No, I don't. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying you can't say it. The guys all played today and they got obliterated. They were down by 40, let's relax.

Let's relax with the injury. Had nothing to do with them losing today. I agree. What did I just say? Anybody can. You said-eed in one game. You're giving us excuse sandwiches. Like, excuse, excuse.

Give me a break. You can't say they're one of the greatest failures in the history of all time and not acknowledge the fact that's not injuries. I didn't say they're one of the greatest failures of all time. The stat is if you were basically saying they're one of the greatest feelings of all time. Is that is a massive disappointment if they lose this series. You can have reasons why they lose the series, but it's a massive disappointment. I just got an update from stats, Will you.

He says, Wendy's sensitivity ratio is an all-time high. I mean, look, guys, I'm a, I'm a grade A realist. It's fine. But, like, you can't, the reason that the, that the, you know, that they fell behind, oh, too. Brian, let's just call a spade of spade. He got on this podcast. I want to hear the excuse. No, no, it's fine.

You were on this podcast a week ago after they annihilated the heat twice, talking about the calves, like they were. a hotter than anything. They were a parade marshal. That's my point. So there are reasons why they're in the position. But if you'd said a week ago that the calves are going to be down 3-1 in the series and will have been down 41 at halftime of game four.

Again, I don't care if they were down 175. Anybody can lose one game. The reason that they're off in the series is they are now looking at having three. If Donovan comes back and looks fresh as a daisy in game five, fine. I don't know if he's playing in game five. And go find the stat on three All-Stars missing games in the series and how those teams did. I think the only Daisy reference with the Cavalier is they're assuming to be pushing them up.

Well, that may be true. No one. Tim and I are not sitting here saying that the Cavs should nuke the franchise if they lose the series. It's also a very disappointing ending to the season and not what this team expected when the playoffs started. They were expecting to be hosting game one of the conference finals. Clearly. But I'm going to tell you something. The Pacers, you guys know I came back from France talking about the Pacers.

And you guys know, and I'm telling you the Cows. Another discovery, McMahon. Add it to the list. I'm going to tell you this. Even if the Cads were full strength, they were going to have their hands full. I think this sucker was going to be legit. The Pacers are legit. They are deep.

They've got top in talent. You know, I don't know if Halberton, I don't know, what is he? Is he a top? I use a top 15 players. league. Dude, they've got great role players. They have great role players. Miles Turner is a great role player. Nimhart. Nism. Tonight, tonight they're bigs. Um, uh, Seacum, uh, Turner and Obie Toppin, Obie Toppin's combo forward, but he was essentially plays backup big for them. They were like 25 of 37 for 60 something points. Like they crushed. Hey, Seacum has been a great

trade for them to give them another all-star caliber player. And you know, and you know what? Carlisle can coach his ass off. You know, I don't, he's not a guy you want to invite to your birthday party, but the man can coach. I'll invite him to my birthday party. I don't have birthday parties, but. Well, he didn't show up for the, uh, the Wonderboy book party.

I understand. Let's all doubt to Mitchell sell. No, go ahead. Yeah. What is your, what is your more amazing, you know, I'll let, I'll let Bontas. Bontas, what is McMan's, not exactly like an immersive journalist, but what is McMahon's, what is that supposed to be? Well, he's not, like, he doesn't do like flowery features where he like, you know,

but what is more, what is the crazier thing that McMahon did for a story? Pedicure with Rudy Gobert or, or letting Rick Carlyle fly him in his little teeny sessna plane. That was pretty damn immersive. It was very immersed. I'm saying you're not known as being an immersive journalist, and that here are two events. I'm known for my record.

My charm and good looks and versatility. Let's put this on the record. Winhorst refuses to let anybody say anything negative about the calves when they're about to potentially lose in the second-border class. Power through. He turns around with not a one-handed backhand slap at McMahon, but a two-handed backhand slap at the band. That's because I said it was the old.

You were clearing your throat to call him an all-time failure. No, I wasn't. No, I wasn't. You absolutely were. Have I told you the Rick Carlisle hot tub story from that trip? I stayed at Rick's place. Let's hear it, but I don't think it's on the podcast. I stayed at Rick's place on that trip.

He's got a place, and I won't say exactly where, but he's got a place, a beautiful spot in South Carolina. And his wife and daughter were back home, so she's me and Rick for a couple nights at his place. And there's like a clubhouse. And so he wanted to go, he wanted to go like in the hot tub of the clubhouse. I'm like, I didn't pack a bathing suit. Rick gave me a bathing suit.

He assured me that it was unused. It was new. But they were just hanging out in the hot tub, me and Rick Carlisle, not awkward at all. Not an immersive journalist at all, though. We are. He was literally immersed. I went underneath the water. I immersed myself under the water.

I just want it said for the record. I do not think the calves would be an all-time disappointment if they lose in the second round of the playoffs with injuries. It is, however, a massive disappointment. And it is worth pointing out that they were 15 and 0, bled wire to wire in the east all year, had visions of being an NBA finals team and are on the verge of getting punked in the second round of the playoffs. This is not what we expected to see. They run into a team that's awesome, that's a bad matchup, and they've had miserable injury fortune. Listen, today was the worst showing by a Northeast Ohio franchise since you put that dang first pitch in the dirt at the Ack and Rubber Dock. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this.

All right. We could end up having three of the same four conference finals. I mean, you know, the Celtics are still behind. We'll see with that. We'll talk about that. Bontips guaranteed four straight. Did he guarantee it? I don't think he guaranteed it.

Oh, he said it with a lot of confidence. You know how Bontips does. of all the confident things Bon Tamps has ever said, this one is not in the top 10. I mean, like, it's not like an outrageous statement. Look, if you,

I mean, look, if you watch game three, I mean, sitting there watching game three, it just remains unbelievable that the Knicks are up to one in the series because the Celtics have dominated, they've played what,

seven games, so they've played 14 halves, and the Celtics have dominated 12 or 13 of the hats. We'll just talk about that right now. Bond Tempts and I were at the Garden on Saturday. How, what percentage of seats do you think was filled at 328? 99.9.9. I'll just assume there was one that was open, but.

Did they give away free t-shirts? They did, but I don't think many Knicks fans were wearing them. And like OKC, the fits are too good up in New York. Go on. The garden fans were so into it. I think my favorite moment of the whole day was when Luke Cornett fouled Mitchell Robinson purposely, and it was like borderline. It was an offensive rebound.

Robinson got the offensive rebound, which he's been doing all series, and he looked like he might go back up with it. And Cornett fouled him, and then ran over to the referees and said, no, he was shooting. And after Mitch had like gone, like one out of his first six and throwing up a pretty bad air ball,

this is one of the things about going to games of the garden. The crowd in the lower deck around, the, around that end of the court where Robinson was at the line, stood up and started like cheering him and like, like encouraging him on. Like, so you can do it, Mitch, you can do it. Like they were, they wanted it so bad and they were, they were not cynical at all. You know, there was not a cynical thing. It was not a Bronx cheer. They were truly trying to uplift him. And then, you know, it started to spread and more and more people got up, you know, saying it. And so it just showed you how invested and how badly those fans wanted it.

Like, you know, this was an afternoon game on a weekend. Like this is not, you know, everybody in their seats at 8 o'clock. Like, no, it was a, and the Celtics tore their hearts out. They were never, they were never in the game. Well, I mean, look, the Celtics, the Celtics are 15 points better than them. They've been 15 points better than them for seven games. The question is, if the Knicks, can the Knicks have another game in the series, or two or three, where they can make it a five point, five minutes to go.

If they can do that, they'll give themselves a chance because they operate far better in the clutch than the Celtics do for the obvious reason that Jaylen Brunson was the clutch player of the year for a reason, and Jay Zatam in particular has struggled in those spots a lot. But there's really no way the Knicks can blow the Celtics out. And the Celtics have routinely blown the Knicks out for seven games. They've led by 20 in every game in the series, and they're down two to one. And when you say in the series, you mean the regular season series plus the playoffs. Yes.

Like they've, you know, the last game, I don't know if they led by 20, but they, you know, it ended up being kind of close late and then it wasn't. But like there's been very little reason to believe the Knicks had a chance to beat them all season, which is why everyone in New York was so fired up after the way the first two games went, because it was like, holy cow, this is the team that they didn't think they could beat. They're somehow up to O in the series. maybe they can find a way to beat them. Well, A.M.

McCall Bridge is making game-winning defensive plays. Yes. You know, that was like, okay, that's the guy that's the guy that we traded five-first-six. So here's the thing. Jalen Brunson and Jason Tatum are still in slumps. They did not break out of their slumps on Saturday. It may have looked like it because they won by 25, but the collectively they shot, I think, 15 of 37. In the series, Jalen Brown is shooting 21% on threes still.

And Tatum is overall still shooting 32% and 35% on threes. They are not out of their slumps. That was, you know, Peyton Pritchard was awesome. He had one of the great best playoff game of his career. Showed why he was a deserving six man of the year winner. Talk to him in the locker room. Talk to him in the locker room after the game. And I said, because his first time I actually talked to him face to face since he won the award,

I congratulated him on winning the award and said, man, what would you have said if I told you two years ago, he didn't be one playing. Yeah. He literally wanted to be traded. Yeah, he was. Even last year in the finals, like, he only played when it was time to hit a 45 footer at a quarter buzzer. Which, by the way, he made a buzzer beater. It was just a two-pointer, but he made a buzzer beater on Saturday.

But he's like, yeah, he's like, you know, I never would have believed that. He's like, you know, I just got to keep focus in. I go, it's okay. I'm just saying two years ago, I wouldn't have believed that you would have had a 25-point game in the garden and you would be. Sixth man of the year. So here's the reality. Here's the reality from the NICS standpoint. Jalen Brunson is not having a good series.

He had awesome clutch time in games one in game two and wouldn't have another guy with the ball in his hands. But he is shooting 38% in the series. He is the NICS or the Celtics are keeping him off the foul line. He averaged nine free throws a game in the Detroit series. He averaging six free throws a game. It doesn't sound like that big of a difference, but they're doing a good job.

because you know he's trying to get to that line. So he's, you know, they're averaging in, in regulation, because they did get one overtime game, but looking in regulation, they're averaging 95 points a game in the three, three games in regulation. That's not getting it done. Towns hurt his finger on his left hand or hurt his hand on his left hand. He was five of 19. I don't, he's not on the injury report, so he's going to play on Monday in game four, but

I don't know where he's going to be. O. O.G. and Anobie basically had an awesome game. one and hasn't been seen on the offensive end since. And the Celtics are fouling the heck out of Mitchell Robinson and it's working. He's 7 of 23 at the line. He is very important to them because he's creating extra possessions left and right. But the hack of Mitch is working because they're getting a lot of empty possessions. So I hate to say that they need Jalen to deliver, but they need Jalen to deliver if they're going to win game four. And in my view, if they don't win game four,

I don't see him. I don't see any hope. They win game four. Now we're cooking. And Jalen could have a 40 point game in him. I'm like, he is, he can do it and he is due, but they need it. Well, look, again, they're up to one in the series. In over seven games, they've been obliterated by the Nicks, by the Celtics this season.

Like, you would certainly bet on the Celtics winning three more ahead of the NICs winning two more. So we'll see, I'm with you. The Nicks, I think, have to win this game four on. Monday and we'll see if they can. But it really is just a matter of like can they find a way to make the game close at the end. Because even the first two games, they were down 20 and had sort of bizarre comebacks in the game where the Celtics just stop scoring for eight, nine minutes at a time. So, you know, they've got to show they can make it competitive for a larger stretch of the game.

If they can get the ball to Jamon with five minutes to go, they'll take their chances. It's just can they actually get through the first 43 minutes and get there with him with the ball in a one or two possession game? If they can, they're going to feel really good about their chance to pull another win at. Porzingis also of the games looked the most animated he has so far. He had three blocks. He only didn't get a lot on offense, but he was giving him some defensive presence, which helped a lot. Yeah. So the fact that he hasn't been able to give him much was a factor leaning, if you were creating a case for the Knicks.

In the regular season, the games when he played, he crushed the Knicks. And the fact that he was basically given him next to nothing, the first two games, was also a factor. So, so I don't know. I could, I would not take anything off the table for Jalen on Monday, but there is not an indication that it's coming. So, but I think they need him. They need something. So they just need, they need points because Tatum and Brown are going to play well at some point. All right.

All right. So Aaron Gordon has been playing great. Another guy who sort of role player that's elevated to really be a difference maker. How about Julius Randall? The only thing I'll take umbrage with is calling a multi-time all-star role player. This time, I'm a player. Yeah, he's definitely taking it to another level. He's definitely.

All right. Well, look, have you seen his playoff stats before this year? He's a guy who has not had playoff success and who's having a great. All right. Unlike somebody else in this podcast, I can accept being corrected. Anyway, he's averaging 22 points, six rebounds and six assists, and shooting 48% from the field, and been a huge add-on to Ant,

who's sort of been up and down in the playoffs. And Minnesota pulling out that win, you know, I'm not saying that the Warriors hit him with their best shot that they could have hit him with on Saturday, but they got a great game from Jimmy Butler, and they were at home, and the game could have gone either way, and it was the Warriors who took it. I mean, it's the wolves who took it.

And just to put this in perspective, Randall during his time with the Knicks, 15 playoff games, 34.4% from the floor, 3.7 assists per game. Like, he had been a very disappointing playoff player. And, as you said, he's been an absolute driving force.

Triple double, by the way, on Saturday. Driving force in their success so far in this, season for for sure and look this whole year was a lot about kind of finding a comfort zone with Julius Randall especially Dante did even chenzo as well remember those guys are traded like a couple days before camp and it was clunky for most of the season and then they figured it out down to stretch and that's continued in the playoffs although they've had some some offensive duds he's definitely I think it's fair to say he's been their most consistent player in the playoffs for sure or aunt obviously has just some supernova type of performances.

Well, look, they, they've played very badly in two of the three games in the series, and they're up two to one. And look, Steve Kerr said everything you're supposed to say in the position he's in after game three, right? Said, I like the formula that we had. I don't think we're that far away. I think we can get a game at home. I walked away from game three saying, these guys had to win one of these three games

to get Steph a chance to be back in game six, a chance. it's hard to believe to me they're going to get a better chance than the one they had in game three. I got another really good game from Jonathan Cominga had 30 points off the bench. I know he was really good in game two. I don't think he's doing that again in the series. Jimmy goes for 33 points. He's obviously not 100% after this tailbone thing in the first round. They shot, they only shot 23-3s, but they hit 43% of the threes.

They're playing at home, and Minnesota was bad, and he still couldn't win. Well, an aunt was awful in the first half. Awful. And in the second half, it was awesome. He played every second again of a second half. And the guy had 28 points on 10 of 16 shooting. And there was, you know, I thought he did a great job of he had a dominant scoring half without being ball hoggy. You know, there was one particular play with a little over three minutes left.

It was a crucial time of the game where I was like, you know, I thought I was thinking like move the ball, move the ball. He gets out on the left lane. There's two bodies on them, kicks it to Randall. Randall makes the quick swing and it's a wide open corner of three. I believe it was Alexander Walker or when you would say Alexander Nikiel Walker, Alexander Walker, Nekeel, whatever you want to call. Anyways.

I'm always botching that. But it was the exact kind of play that Finchie's been hammering on Ant, like make the right play. get off the ball. And it doesn't go down in the box scores anything for him. But I thought it was another example of his recent maturation. Yeah. So I don't know. The comming a thing is fascinating. Look, there's just, I mean, the bottom line is the way he plays, he's got to have the ball a lot. And so if you have Stefan Jimmy, there's not really room at the end for him. With one of them out, there's a role for him.

He's played great the last couple games. but again, is he going to make every single shot and score 30 points like he did each the last two games? I don't think so. So maybe he will. Maybe he'll just keep doing that. But I came away from that one thinking that was the one the Warriors had the chance to steal. Without question.

Maybe what else happened? They could maybe look very dumb on Monday. It would be the first time Jimmy pulled one out, pulled one out of his hat the last couple of years in the playoffs. But I got to think Minnesota is going to play better than that. And we've seen the Warriors were struggling to score with Steph in these playoffs. Now they don't have him.

It's just a very big hill to climb. You know what else happened in the second half? Draymond Green played a little less than 12 minutes, picked up four fouls after halftime, didn't score, bowed out of the game, you know, in a game when they really needed him, he wasn't there for him. I mean, you know, went and watched the last however many minutes from the bench.

Well, he said and get a technical. Only because the rest turned ahead. way after he fouled out and didn't listen to him. We have a big event on Monday night. For all the teams that have not in the playoffs, this is what they've been looking for as long as they didn't trade their pick. It's the Cooper Flagg Lottery in Chicago on Monday. I'll just do it this way.

How about we do this? Who would you like to see win the Cooper Flag Lottery? Can I give more than one team? Of course. I, for an NBA standpoint, I would like to see him wind up on the eastern seaboard with either Philly, Brooklyn, or Washington. Every single guy. From an NBA from a Bond Tim's travel stamp.

Well, look, I mean, if you look at the last 20 years since LeBron got drafted, right, every single time a player like this has been available at the top of the draft, he's gone to the Western Conference every single time. And not always with the number one pick, but Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Luca Donchich, Carl Towns, even, Victor, Zion Williamson, John, rant, like go down the list, right? Every single time, one of these guys has gone to the Western Conference. It would be good at some point if one of these players got drafted by an Easter conference team and for no other reason than to have some sort of balance to the conferences at

some point. But like if, like, let's say our friend Will Hardy who just got a contract extension very deservedly recently, let's say the Jazz get them. Like, sure, okay, they'll just be another ridiculous team in a couple of years in the West. Like, because there's already not enough playoff spots, including the playing for teams out west. So I don't think there was a, I don't think the sun's deserved a chance to play in the season this year. That's fine. I'm just, I'm just saying that I, I watched the playing games out east.

It wasn't exactly the same level. Just put it that way. So, you know, I would, I would like to see him wind up out here somewhere for that reason. But it's going to be a fascinating water. The funniest possible outcome would be. the Rockets. Yes. 3.8% chance

of being number one pick thanks to the Sun. The Rockets and the Spurs, I would say. Well, the Spurs and the Spurs have, let me do math. Well, the Spurs would just be a fun outcome. The Rockets would be a fun outcome.

Well, the Rockets would be fun too. You add Cooper Flagg to that next. Oh, boy. Oh, no, I agree. I agree. I just mean because of the fact

that the Nets, I think correctly, traded that pick to Houston to get control of their next two drafts back and the fact that the Suns, the team, the 26 out of 29 teams, would have traded places with a year ago, according to their owner, would potentially give up the

number one pick in the draft by not making the play in to another Western Conference rival would be a hilarious turn of events. You keep checking up from the Nets and that trade. That was a terrible trade. Number one, how do you not get written in there that you get the higher of the Nets or Sons pick this year? Number two, the Rockets held on your 2007 swap is a terrible. trade. But the spurs have a, and I will give the Nets this. They didn't know that the Mavs

29 pick was going to soar in value a few months after making that deal. But the spurs between Atlanta and their own have 6.7% chance to win it. I feel like the basketball gods are not going to let Philly jump up from five. Like that, sorry, man. That would be just for angst reasons. That would be amazing to see. Yeah, the basketball guy. I feel like the Sixers pick is going to wind up first or seven. And if it finds up seventh for people, I assume people know, listen to the pod. But in case they don't, the Top Sixers are the top sixers for a reason.

They keep their pick if it stays in the top six, which means two teams have to jump them to fall to seven. It's happened, which has happened, especially with the new rules. It's a lot more fluid than it used to be and a lot flatter. Well, as we discussed, now the 64's because they got 64% chance to keep their pick. yes, but it feels to me like we're either going to see it land at 7 and that Thunder logo is going to pop up or they're going to jump way up into the top one or two.

That would be interesting. I think it would be, so I, for interest reasons, either San Antonio or Houston winning it. Although it doesn't even need, I don't even need to win it. Just either of them jumping into the top four, I think gets things very interesting,

not just for who they could draft, but also as a potential to go into the trade market. So that is where I'm watching, San Antonio and Houston. However, the team where I think Cooper Flag might have a remarkable lane would be if Washington wins. Why is that? Because that's a franchise that has been in the wilderness for a long time and is basically a dead market right now. And if he goes there, he has a potential to create a whole. Put them there. Put them on the nets.

Either one. Same thing. Yeah. The Nets karma is not really on their side. You know, the Wizards haven't had anything happened for them for decades. Well, I mean, well, no, they're coming off a buzzer beater.

Yes, they are. The Nets, they're on a winning street. This pick, the Nets have been playing in Brooklyn since 2012. This will be the first lottery pick the Nets have. And they have sent out picks that became Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, among others,

in the drafts. And it was, was and also the pick that became Reed Shepard. So I believe that's crazy. I'm pretty sure that was their pick that jumped up. It was. They've had three top three picks. And none of them were theirs. So look, if Cooper Flag winds up with the Wizards.

Also, you want to go further back, they had the Dame Lillard. I know they weren't in Brooklyn yet, but they had the Dame Lillard pick. Dame Lillard was picked with their draft pick. That is a great-air-old-Wallis. They traded a top-through protected pick. Billy King said that there were three players they liked in the draft, and they gave up the sixth pick and it became Dame. You know, Charlotte and New Orleans would be fascinating or not New Orleans. He can't go to New Orleans. Forget karma. All they do is get number one draft picks or high draft picks. I agree, but it would be fascinating. I think it's, you know, what if anything happens with Zion? What if anything happens with Lamello is going to be interesting regardless.

That would be an interesting element to add to those possibilities, I would say. Cooper's probably not going to be Victor Wimbunyama. But, He is one of the better prospects to come along in the last 20 years. And he's the kind of guy that any one of these teams that gets them, Utah, Charlotte, Washington, Brooklyn, any of them, it's going to change the course of the franchise that gets them. Just like, look at the spurs. Like, you could say the spurs are in a great position now. A couple of years ago, like they were kind of floating along. The post-Kawai era hadn't gone great. And they get that player and everything immediately looks different.

and this guy's got a chance to be that kind of players. One of the most interesting things that you did this year is you and, I think was you in Peltin, but it might have been you and Bobby. I can't remember you ranked the rebuilds. It was just me. Oh, he wants full credit.

I mean, I do lots of things with Bobby and Kevin, but this one was just me. He wants full credit. You rank the rebuilds and basically I'm looking at you ranked in one, you know, one through 10 or whatever. And basically two through nine,

you had him ranked, but like, the point was like, Spurs were number one, not because of, like, great player development, not because of shrewd management. You know, like, they do fine. Like, you know, then they drafted Castle and, you know. But they got lucky in the lottery. That's why they're number one.

And they tanked like hell to maximize their odds in that. Well, that's fine. That's fine. But, like, you can tank like hell and it not go your way. I mean, but you know the Spurs. The Spurs won't win this lottery. They only win the lottery when there's a generational seven footer at the top. Wow.

Cooper's pretty close. seven feet. Six nine. Not tall enough. But I mean, look, last year, Atlanta jumped from 10 to one, right? They jumped from 10 to one in a draft that wasn't nearly as good. Like, a lot of this stuff just comes down to dumb luck when you're rebuilding. And for all these teams, you know, again, Washington has this multi-year tear-down rebuild, right?

They've drafted all these semi-interesting to interesting young players. They've got a bunch of young guys on the team. They got better as the year went along. But if you end up with the six-pick in the draft, it's just not the same. same is getting this kind of guy. So for all these teams, like how these ping pong balls bounce, going to shift the next three to five years for a lot of these teams. And, you know, look, Utah's a great example. Utah hired a great coach. They just extended them after three bad years because he's proven he's a really good coach that has not had a lot to work with by design

last year in particular. Like the jazz have to just keep trying to get a player like this. They did everything they could do to get it. Like you said, they did just like San Antonio. They have the number one. Did they ever? Number one odds, they're going to get no worse than the fifth pick in this draft. But you wind up with the fifth pick. It looks a hell of a lot different than you wind up with Cooper flag. Well, that's true.

But they half tanked the last two years, and they got picks in the middle of the lottery, and they got the ninth pick twice. They've tanked in the last year and a half. That's their problem. This is the previous two years before this season. They weighed until midseason or really go take by them. Right. And they got, you know. They got the ninth pick twice.

They got Hendricks. I don't even remember. They got Hendrix. Taylor, Taylor Hendricks. Taylor Hendricks. They dropped to Cody Williams, 10th.

But yeah, like that's the thing. Like you just, you got to get lucky. So there's going to be a lot of teams sitting around just praying Monday night that a combination of ping pong balls,

four of them, lines up in their direction. And none of them have a better than 14% chance to do it. Like it's, it's a total swing in the dark. Is like, even at 14%

it's so important to get a high draft pick that it's worth going for it. Like that the calculus in a lot of six circumstances says go for it, even for 14%. So, all right, that's enough for tonight. Thank you to Jackson.

We'll be up late. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Bon Temps. Thank you for watching and listening to The Hoop Collective. We'll be talking to you in a couple of days where we know where Cooper Flagg are going and we'll know just how

historically terrible the Cavs playoff failure is going to be. We'll have a full package of stats for that. And Wendy will be well-rested and in a good mood. Adios amigos.