Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Panic for Clippers? History For Jokic + Brunson Injury & Lakers Needing LeBron

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Vincent Goodwill and Ramona Shelburne to discuss the Clippers’ concerning start to the season, Jokic’s historic performance in LA, why Denver are legit contenders, how LeBron will fit upon returning to the Lakers, the impact of Brunson’s injury on the Knicks and OKC’s dominance over the league thus far. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.espn.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday afternoon, joining us from Detroit, where he's just flown in from a week in New York.

I believe you were at the Magic's mildly surprising victory over the Knicks last night. It's Vince Goodwill. That sounded almost easy coming off you, calling me Vince. I like that, Wendy. I respect your wishes. I respect your wishes to want to rebrand. I mean, go by Vince. joining us from the San Fernando Valley,

where she's one of the most colorful characters, born and raised, Ramona Shelburne. You know what? I don't know that you can make that statement about the San Fernando Valley. We have a lot of colorful characters. That's true. That's true. That's true. Yeah. There's quite a history. Yeah, you're not kidding. Yeah, that's true. All right. Okay, I think we should start on the West Coast, Ramona.

I've been in L.A. all week. I've gone to two Clipper games. And while the Lakers are definitely the focus of L.A. as usual, and we'll talk about them in a minute. It's a lot of depression on the Clippers side of the court. So I went to the Nuggets Clippers game on Wednesday night. And I will talk about Yokech and the Nuggets in a second. Let's do that too, yeah. You know, I got a little fired up. Jackson remembers this.

I got a little fired up in the preseason. There was a Clippers, a Nuggets game on ESPN. Both teams in the preseason, and both teams played it like for real. And it was like, especially for the first half, like super high level awesome basketball. The Clippers looked great. Literally we ended the broadcast and I came right into this studio here in L.A. And like maybe it got a little excited about what I saw, you know, sort of shaking off the summer blues. And I, like, thought the clippers looked great.

I was, like, all excited about Zubots. You know, Kauai was awesome. And I was like, this felt like, you know, almost like a mini-game eight. They were both stretching their legs against each other. And I saw the same two teams, again, you know, like five weeks later. And my God, is it a different feel, Ramona? The clippers are in a bad way. They've lost six in a row.

Before the game, they announced a Bradley Beale had broken his hip. And it was out for the season. then Lawrence Frank said that Kauai Leonard, he's missed like the last six games with a sprained ankle. He said it's not just a sprained ankle. It's also a sprained foot and it's a significant sprained foot. And he's going through treatment three times a day and they're dealing with a lot of inflammation, not anything that feels good. And then after the clippers crushed them for their six straight loss as they get ready to do a seven game road trip. And it was already apparent if you watch the game, Ty Lou said they're going to start.

are playing younger guys, which is not what you want to hear about your team in November because it means things aren't going well. And they played two two-way guys over 20 minutes, and I think that they may be doing that a little more going forward. So Ramona, I know you spent a bunch of time around the Clippers early in the season, primarily because of the cap circumsacion thing. But I don't know. It's tough.

I really had high hopes and expectations to the Clippers. I was way out there on them, and they were not present this week and in Twitter. They were not good. You know, it started with the two losses. It was a home and home with the Phoenix Suns. And I think the Suns have been playing pretty well recently. And they came up, they've been coming up with a formula for everybody, right? They came up with the formula on Wembe.

They came up with the formula on the Clippers. I will say they have one win this season of teams over 500, Jif on the Suns. But they're winning. I don't want to take it. But they beat the Clippers twice, and I think this was what started this downslide. And it was, you watch the Sons against him, and the sons have a lot of younger, faster, athletic guys.

And they just made the Clippers look bad in those games. And I thought, like, that's kind of that started the slide. They sort of thought they were getting some things figured out. And then yesterday was, I thought, pretty ugly. It was hard to watch. I mean, I watched two very ugly games last night with the Lakers in the Thunder. and then the clippers and the nuggets where and I know you said we'll get back to Denver

where they put Yokic back in the game when they were up by 15 and I was like, are they trying to get him 70? I don't know. But, you know, that was an interesting move there. Well, he had, he had, what do you have after three? Do they have 52 after three? 52 after three.

Yeah. Yeah. And then they were up by a lot. And then it got to like 15 or 16 and then they put them back in at the game. Because, you know, in this league, you really can't turn fast. So I'll believe David Adelman at his word saying, you know, we just want to win the game, etc.

But I felt like when I've been watching the Clippers lately, the one thing that you could always hang your hat on with the clippers is that they were going to compete. Jeff Van Gundy runs the defense. Tyloo is always a great defensive coach. It didn't matter the talent they had on the floor. Those guys were going to compete. And I don't see that right now. And they, you know, Ties looked at tapes and he's talked about it a lot in his press conferences. And a lot of what they're saying is it starts.

with transition. We're getting beat back down the court, which is that speaks to age. Okay, it speaks to being able to get back. But some of that is, you know, you can, you can say that's Brooke Lopez. You can say that maybe they should put John Collins in there. James Hardin is not exactly rushing back every time, but it's more than just the defense. Like, if you don't have defense, you really don't have anything, but they really don't have anything offensively either. There's no rhythm. And they're sort of last in every offensive metric, you know, like pace and turnover. You know, so when you're playing slow and you're turning the ball over and you're not playing defense,

it's a pretty bad recipe. Plus, you know, I should point this out, the oldest guy in the team, the guy we thought would be a player who could steady them in moments like this. Chris Paul is getting DnP. And I thought that was notable. The first time it happened, I said, okay, they're playing the Hawks. You know, that's a, maybe it's not his kind of game. But then it happened again last night. And this is against a Denver team.

Yeah, they're playing faster. but Chris Paul knows what he's doing out there on the court. And so I don't know what's happening. I know they had Jordan Miller play last night. And you said they're playing, you know, young guys. Multiple two-way guys, Jordan Miller and Kobe. They've got two Kobe's, Kobe Sanders. Fucking.

Sanders, yeah. Different, different Kobe. No, they've got Kobe Brown. Who I don't really think is in the list of guys they're going to play that much. But Kobe Sanders seems like it might be. So, yes, they got two Kobe's and one C. And the Kobe's played more than CP. And CP is it too early?

No. He was going to play with clipper. Like, can we just, can we just call it? He played 82 games. He started 82 games last year for the Phoenix Suns and did a pretty darn good job. Spurs.

You know, like, Spurs. Oh, God, back me up there. You know, sorry. No,

but there, no, you're great. You're right. But there's no, I'm trying to say, there's no precedent. Like, the last precedent for a small guard to play this late in

his career was John Stockton, who only had, I believe, one major knee injury throughout his career. I think it was in 97, 98. He might have played like 46 games or something like that. But he had been the Iron Man up until that point and even after. Like, so much wear and tear and atrophy on Chris Paul's body. Like, it's amazing. Like, maybe we'll talk about Paul George, maybe we want. But when your body changes, we tend to forget.

Whoa, hold on. Did I lose you, Wendy? Okay. I'll lost you for a second. when your body changes and you reach you have to transform your game like chris paul was a dynamo an athletic dynamo when he came into the league he was dunking on everybody he was as quick as the alan iversons as the isaiah thomas as the little guys of the time and then when he had that knee injury he had to sort of remake his game he's so far removed from that and so old we've forgotten that his body has had so much happened to it to this point that it's not expected that he should be able to play at age 40 and play high minutes and everything else. Same thing with Paul George. In 2014, when he hit that gruesome leg injury,

we've forgotten that he's 10 years removed from that athletic dynamo. I think we've become so accustomed to seeing the LeBron's and the Stephs and the KDs play at such a high level so late into their career that we think everybody's supposed to do it. And when you put together an old team and Kauai Leonard is old, right? His body has told him that he's old, even though he's, you know, with 34, I think. I think he's born in 91, so he's 34. But his body says that he's probably 40.

And if you're expecting these guys to hold up early and late, I think, you know, people got a little bit of, you know, Wendy, you probably got a little ahead of yourself. You know what I mean? Clearly. My defense is, yeah. Are we sure was Chris Paul part of the problem when they were losing? Like, he said and played these last games.

Well, and I don't know that his performance has dropped. I don't think, no, I don't think it's a Chris Paul thing. I'm sure. No, no, no. I'm not saying he's the issue. No, no. I think it's possible that Chris Paul might not be thrilled about not playing. He knew when he signed that he was going to have a smaller role.

But here's the thing. Like, the Clippers picked a bad time to be old. And what I mean by that is that the league is just playing so fast. Yes. Like, the other day, somebody was saying to me, you know, the reason the league is playing so fast is because of how fast the Thunder and the Pacers played last year. And I was like, well, yeah, the Pacers played fast. I was like, did the Thunder really play fast?

I was like, when our Thunder are fast-paced team, I looked it up. They're like 23rd in pace. But when you watch them play, they move into their, they try to really move down the court to get into their offense. They sort of, they're trying to get down the court and start their offense by about 18 on the clock, 18, 19 on the clock. Yeah. So the reality is playing at like speed is now just table stakes, right? So I went and looked it up for the story that Bonn-Temps and I was put out on Friday.

Is the Intel a story that we have, NBA Intel, whatever with every. I don't even know what they branded. So last year, I think there were like eight or nine teams that averaged over 100 possessions a game. Now, right now there's over, there's like 25. So now, that pace will slow down. Teams will get more tired. Like you never play in as fast in November as you are going to play. play in March. But, okay, so that's the reality of the NBA. All these teams are playing, like,

much more speed. And the clippers have the oldest team on record. And so you look at, like, Brooke Lopez is giving them next to nothing, Batum's given them next to nothing. Bogdan Bogdanovich, friend of the pod, you know, I know he's frustrated. He's given them next to nothing. You know, Kauai is now hurt with a foot injury, you know, they're just, they're so, you know, talk to scouts and the scouts are like, they have no chance of having a fast break. point and they get a turnover and they're just in big trouble. So Vince, is it too early to point out? In November, is it too early to point out the Thunder have the Clippers draft pick? I mean, it's kind of a story every year. I know, but last year they were the five seed, you know,

so. I know, but every year, you're like, how much longer does the Thunder have their pick? It's not too, because the West is so stacked. Many, I think three more years. Yeah. Jeez, that's the gift that keeps on giving. Like, no, I think. I think. I don't think it's too, I don't think it's too early to talk about that because when you're playing in the West, think about how many, think about the teams that we believe are underachieving in the West. We're really only talking about Dallas and New Orleans. Phoenix is playing a little bit above their heads, even though they haven't like beaten anybody. I think the Warriors are underachieving too. I think the Warriors and the Clippers.

I thought the Warriors are playing exactly to where they should be because they're an old team. I don't, I'm a person that will say, and maybe Wendy can brand this, I'll just be wrong, right? And by that means if the words have to prove me wrong, wait, wait, wait, hold on. You're saying I should brand something where I'm saying I'm wrong or I'm saying something you're wrong, you know, brand. No, no, I'm saying you can say that you believe in it. I'll just have to be wrong. Like, I will ride on this until I'm wrong.

All right. be okay being wrong. Like the Warriors being who they are, I'll just be wrong, right? The Clippers being who they are, I'll be wrong. And I think in this Western Conference, if you lose five games in a row, like that puts you in such a tough position where you are playing from behind for the rest of the season. Like, remember the Warriors did that 23 and 8 stretch after getting Jimmy Butler. And we thought, usually that will probably put you the point of being in a four or five spot. If you finish that, that frenetically, they were still in the playing. That's right. You're like, This is a tougher Western Conference than last year.

So, yeah, you ain't getting your pickback. You better start figuring out what you got in these young players. And I'm a Thai-Luc believer. I think he's one of the top-fired coaches in basketball. But that's kind of one of those things that you kind of have to re-register your key card every now and again. Like, you can't just say it. You kind of have to actually do it. But he doesn't have the pieces.

Wendy, I don't think that helps him at this point. Even if James Harden is carrying a load, he's still 36 years. I would have believed that to be the case that stretches this year. I did not believe we were going to be here at November 13th. I didn't either. And I think some of this, I'll say, this is my take is, I've watched them. Ty seems like he's experimenting with all sorts of different rotations, which is good and bad. Like, it's good because what you're doing isn't working, so you should try something else.

But also bad because it makes it harder for people to get their rhythm. It makes James Harden's rotations of change. changed a lot. It's kind of hard for him to stay ready and be right because I can get into the nuances of when they're subbing him in and out in the second quarter or not, etc. But I think it's, when you're trying a lot of things, it can be destabilizing. I also think if you don't have a young team, if you just fundamentally went old this year and you're relying on smarts and skill and wisdom, et cetera, just lean in that way. Like, don't try to be what you're not with inferior your talent. And I, I, to me, I've watched Chris Paul play this year. I thought he still had it.

I thought he was good. And I don't understand why he can't be part of the answer. Like, you got, you got him for a moment like this to organize your offense when James Hardin is out there and maybe he doesn't need to take some of the load off of him. You got him for when you're in a six game losing streak. Like, that's, that's part of why you have veterans like that. And I don't, I, you know, I'm wondering what, what's going to happen there. I suspect, yeah, I'm wondering what's going to happen, but I suspect the, and I'm more than suspect. I think they need as many people who can get the ball moving as fast, you know, get the body, get the body's moving as fast as possible.

And at this point, I think they're looking at younger guys who can do that. And maybe their situation will flip around, then it'll be a different set of challenges that they have, maybe after Kauai gets back. But right now, I think they're like, we need, we need some, we need as much speed as we can possibly get on the court. And I don't think Chris is on that list right now. Fair or not. Yeah. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay, well, I don't like to start the podcast off than negative. I don't like to. I just did. I realize that. So, Yokic. Oh. Okay. So, you know, like, we are all fortunate. We get to spend a lot of time around elite athletes.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, I remember when I was a kid, Vince, Warren Moon. Warren Moon. Warren Moon was playing for the Houston Oilers and he was in the Cleveland Browns division and when Warren Moon threw the ball the ball looked different. I realize you watch all the NFL quarterbacks the ball looked different coming out of his hands I guess for the kids Aaron Rogers like yeah yeah the ball comes out of Aaron Rogers hand

like he kind of he kind of like slings it like in a way and it like it lands in places and goes to place you're like how did he do that? Mahomes the same way. Mahomes does stuff and like as a golfer like I I remember when I first saw Roy McElroy. Tiger was too, but Tiger was more mental. But when Roy McElroy hits the ball, even amongst pro golfers,

the ball looks different coming off his club. Okay? When Yokic shoots a shot, the ball lands on the rim different. The ball lands on the rim, and it's like the rim wants it in. You know, like, this is like Kobe. I don't know. I know what you're talking about. I know I'm going off.

Like when Kobe shot the ball, the ball sort of went into the, into the net in such a way, like almost like in the back of the net, it like almost mechanical. Like Kobe had a way when like when his shot was going, the ball went in. Yokic puts the ball up there and obviously he's swishing it most of the time, but he puts the ball up there and the ball and the ball lands on the rim as if someone else shot it. Like his, his touch. And then like you see a rebound come off and like three or four gods will go for the rebound. And Yokch will not have position.

Yeah. And he sticks his hand in there and somehow the ball comes to his hand. A shot will come up and you'll guys will get in position. Yokic will be totally out of the play. And then somehow one second later, he's got the ball. It's amazing to watch. He's at the peak of his powers. Guys, the statistics are freaking crazy.

All right? He is shooting 78% on two-pointers. And you know, obviously I know he's taking some layups, but he takes shots from all these different angles from all over the mid-range. He's throwing up floaters, balls bouncing around the rim. He is shooting 68% overall. Okay?

He's leading the league in rebounds. He's leading the league and assists. Have we ever seen that before? Wilt? I was going to think, was the year that Wilt let the league in assist, He has to be. He has to be.

I'm sure he did. I don't look it up. Now, I'm going to say two things. I'm going to give you two more stats that are wild. Per 100 possessions, that's the way we standardize the stats. Per 100 possessions, the nuggets are scoring 151 points. Ooh. Per 100 possessions when Yokic is out there.

All right? When Yokich is out there, the nuggets are allowing per 100 possessions, 104 points. That means Yokic's net rating. And 100 possessions is about a game for most of the league. When we first started doing this stat, it wasn't a game. Most possession games were less than 100, but the game is sped up. Yokic is, so that's 47 points, net rating plus 47. That's historic.

The nuggets, guys, the nuggets are the number two defensive team in the league right now. I mean, holy Moses. I spent a bunch of time with the Nuggets people yesterday. Yokic is in a very good place. Jamal Murray came in in shape. Aaron Gordon is healthy. You know, Bruce Brown is not killing it, but it gives them defensive versatility.

Jonas Valenzhenius, he's only playing like 12, 15 minutes, but that's like that gives Yokic's minutes are down. And, you know, he's three minutes down. He's three minutes down and four shots down. and he's scoring more points and playing better defense. Man. I liked his quote, Brian, at the end of the game last night where he said, I like our bench, like the depth they have on this team

because all those guys want to play defense. Like, we all want to be good at defense. And I think just that organizational depth that they have this year, they have a lot of competitive, high care guys. You know, that term the high care factor, right? They have a lot of guys that just play the right way. They have them. They have them. They have guys they can count on.

They have a nice mix of veterans and young guys. And I just think Yokic, there was one game at the beginning of the year against the Warriors where I thought he looked like he needed to play. He needed another week to get in shape. That's about all I can say where he's looked fallible. The nuggets admit he didn't come. Yeah. The nuggets admit he didn't come in.

He's coming in better shape before. But that's all I can find. Like that is the, and he still was great. He just needed another week to get into shape. He looks like the game has slowed down for him. You know, when there's people out there and they just, they're just orchestrate and everything. Like right now, you know, it's like when Tom Brady, when he was in his 40s and you're like, how is he still doing this?

And it's just because he knows everything that's going to happen five steps ahead. Like, that's what I feel like when I watch Yokic. It's, it's the game is, everyone else is playing at one speed and he's, he's Neo in the Matrix right now. Yeah, I've stopped talking about, I've stopped making Seinfeld references and Matrix references because I think our podcast audience has aged out. Oh, man, really? I don't know. Yeah.

I'm a completely different demo of Seinfeld. I'll tell you that much, Wendy. You got to put other shows in there. But I will say this. There are certain stats that, advanced stats, that I've come to rely upon in terms of like historical references and everything else. Wednesdays per 48 minutes is something that I've come to really love over the past maybe 10 years or so. if I remember correctly

Michael Jordan's best win shares per 48 was something around like a 0.339 or something like that right? Like basically all you need to know people is that it's a statistical model that basically shows how much of an effect

you have on winning per night. Yolkich's win shares per 48 minutes when he won MVP was right around like a 301. This season, title 468. That would be the highest by far in the history of the NBA, I feel pretty damn confident.

I don't have to look that up to see that it's the highest. Like you said, Wendy, he's at the absolute peak of his powers, and I want to transition just a little bit. To me, this is why I hate the second apron. And I know people are going to say, oh, a parody is great and everything else. Screw that.

To some degree, we've been cheated out of being able to see Yokich and that team with whatever the resources that the nuggets were going to use not maybe you could say the Kronky family was never going to dive deep into without the restrictions and maybe you're right but let's just say it right

they should be on a collision course a yearly collision course with Oklahoma City at full throttle like we should be watching them like the Celtics and the 76ers back in the 80s or the Pistons and Bulls you know when I was first coming up

Like, it's that sort of rivalry that we should have if both, if the nuggets have been allowed by the rules to keep their team together. Because watching a player like this warrants the level of greatness he should be surrounded by. The fact that you go get Tim Hardaway on the minimum and he's just out here, you know what? I'm going to just stand at this spot like the Sandlot. Remember the Sandlot, Wendy? Have you seen that movie? I don't know.

We may age out. That may age out our audience too, man. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. I'm trying to beat people where they are. It's more of a classic, you know. Stick your hand up here and the ball will just reach you. That's Tim Harway, just stand there.

And Aaron Gordon, one of the greatest, in my opinion, low-key player development stories in the history of the NBA. I know what I'm saying hyperbolicly, but the fact that he's in year 12 and he's still improving, better with the handle, better with three-point shooting, really good defender, still athletic. Like you don't see guys improving this. this much this late in their careers.

And he's one of the guys that you're like, man, is Aaron Gordon this good or is it, Yokic? No, it's both. It's both because Yokic is still improving. This is insane. And we might be in four collision course between Denver and Oklahoma City this may. So I did look at up, wind shares. Jordan's best year was 0.321.

Yokic is 0.468. As long as we're having fun with advanced stats. So I know, I'm not saying he's better than Jordan. I'm not going crazy like that. I know. All right, I know. PERR, which is, you know, player efficiency rating. It's sort of fallen out of vogue as a statistical measure because it leans more towards

big men. But it's good for, it's good for, you know, standardizing stats. So Yokic has led the NBA and PER in six straight seasons. Okay. So like, you know, it's not even news, okay? League average PER, it's specifically says that the league average player has a 15. So replacement level player is a 15.0 PER. His highest ever in a season was one of his MVP years.

He had a 32.8 PER. Last year, when he finished second, he had 32 PER, which was his highest in three years. He's a 39.4 right now. And I'm going to go look up what Wilt was because they can retroactively, even though the stat wasn't around, they can retroactively do it. I'm going to go look what Wilt was in the, in the, crazy here where he. Do you think we've been cheated a little bit that we weren't able to see Denver really, really run it back once they get over to hump and to see Oklahoma City try to

come and get them? Like Oklahoma City kind of, they were tested, but they didn't have anybody to climb over. And now they're just, they're just lapping the league at this point. Look, I, I, I, I, I, I cover that series last year, Ben, Vinny, I'm, I'm, I'm going to get, I'm going to get your name right. I'm going to, I have a, you're fine. No, you can, no, you're coming. You're Come me, Benny. You can call me, Benny. He just changed it. I know.

I'm going to take him in. We're respecting his rebrand. I'm respecting his rebrand. Okay. It's like the clothing brand, Vince. Okay. They, so I'm going to remember now.

That, I still think Denver would have beat Oklahoma City last year. Baron Gordon didn't get hurt that last game. And if the game would have been at nighttime instead of during the day. Like, that's how good Denver was on, they were, I mean, they were absolutely gassed. they had two seven game series in a row not a lot of days off in between Michael Porter Jr. had a shoulder. Aaron Gordon had a, was a amier calf, lose leg injury. And I still think they would have beat him if they had just a little tiny bit more recovery.

And I look back on the decisions they made last year. This is when we all were talking about the second apron and Calvin Booth made the sort of choice to go with the youth movement. I think Calvin Booth deserves an apology from some folks because Christian Brown, that guy is really good. And they let him, they, Calvin believed in Christian Brown enough to let KCP go. And like you look at Contavis Caldwell, Pope's still a really good player. But, but I think Christian Brown's gotten better. He's bigger. He's, he's six, seven.

He's a little taller. He's stronger. Six, seven. You know, and he can, I did you. Are you doing that? Is that what you're doing the six, seven? Yeah, of course. Oh, my God. So there was a, by the way, there's a quick aside. You should look for the video today.

There was a, I can't remember which teams played, but there was a college women's basketball game today that they played like in the morning. I can't remember. I wish I could tell you who it is. It was two big schools. And they did it so that grade school kids could come to the game. Yeah. And a girl, and when they reached 67 points at the moment.

Oh, God. the place went like the footage the footage is amazing this is what happens when you things you know now we're all understanding what 6-7 is

and we don't none of us actually understand it nobody really does but we're now using it to be cool so now it's going to switch to something like they're going to make it 4-1 or you don't wait wait you know but you don't know Vince or you don't know there's something that started no I know it's something

that started like on the TikToks and I know you know what the kids do but I don't know exactly what the hell it means. Nobody does. You don't have a seven or eight year old like Ramona. It's just a nonsense thing. You know, it's,

but the fact that we're saying it now means it's no longer cool. Just watch. There's going to be something new. So back to the point. I think Calvin Booth moved to go to the youth movement. Look, we can talk about letting Bruce Brown go. That contract he signed,

I don't know that that was a good contract for Denver to do. I'm happy for Bruce that he got paid. He deserved to get paid. But that was a lot of money that that he was able to get because of the way India, remember Indiana had that big salary kept space. They were supposed to get DeAndre, eight.

Yeah, they used it to get Pascal Seyakum. One of the reasons why the Pacers were in the finals last year was because they couldn't find anybody give the money to. And they're like, Bruce, how do you feel about 20 million? He was like,

I feel pretty good about it. So by the way, that's what happens when you win a championship. Sometimes role players get paid and they leave, except if you're the thunder. Yeah. Yet, yet. Okay, we'll just say yet. Just first.

Yeah, that's right. So I know what you're saying, Vince, but, but I also think that Peyton Watson's really good, you know, and that's another guy Calvin both believed in. I think Christian Brown's good, straw. There's good. All those young guys are good. And, and they're. I wasn't saying like as an abomination of Calvin Boop, I think he did a really good job. And I think to some degree he kind of got, let's be perfectly. I think got a little scapegoated on the way out like everybody did that Michael, you know, Michael Malone, Calvin.

Like somebody who's still there was watching that whole thing happen. And all of a sudden, like, that's a discussion for another day. But I think Calvin. But like your question was that we missed out on the Denver Prime. There was, last year, I would say yes because they did lack some depth. They couldn't play enough of the young guys to, and Yokic had to do too much. And Aaron Gordon had to do too much. And that's why, I mean, you know, but I also think it was, I think they had the best chance

of beating the thunder of anyone I saw. And we can argue about the lot of game seven with Halliburton getting hurt. They could have beat the Thunder too, okay? But Denver was really good. And I think that that was the year they could have got them. I don't know. Let's see them this year when they match up. Let's see a seven game series again.

It's a good point. I will say this. Like, I've said this before, over the last three years, the minimum that Denver should have won was one time. Yeah, minimum. Minimum. You know, they had two seven game series losses. Who knows?

before we move on, I just want to, I did look up the chamber. So the classic all-time Chamberlain year, 61, 62, average 50 points and 26 rebounds, average 48.5 minutes, most, one of the most unbreakable single season records in all sports, average 48.5 minutes a game. His PER that year was in fact the highest of his career, as you can imagine, with those kind of stats. He, he, he, his winchers, I don't, his winchairs per 40. 28, Vinny, since, or 0.286. His P.E.R was 32.1.

Like I said, Yokich's is 39. This is insane. Yokic is true shooting. I mean, if you don't care about advanced stats, you're going to have turned this pot off. Yokic's true shooting right now is 770. Okay. That's insane. 77%.

It's like bomb. like Barry Bond's numbers. It's Sheri and Tony. I live in LA. Like this is, I mean, like, we were on radio yesterday and Shohei's going to win the MVP again. And we're like, how many more is he going to win? Like, he should win every year if he's going to hit 50 home runs and then be a pitcher also would strike 10 guys out.

And so like, it's kind of, we have a few athletes in our generation now, whether it's basketball with, with Steph or the Dodgers, Vinny, a true underdog story. But you know what? I like the fact that greatness, they go forward. Screw everybody, the NBA and Mike Bass and Adam Silver, they'll strike me down. And I have told them to this, so I'm not speaking out of turn. I don't care how bad the bad team is or how good the bad team is.

Give me greatness. Like you said, the minimum of championships, Oklahoma should have, Denver, excuse me, should have won is one. we should have seen an epic NBA finals between them and Boston. Even if it was just one year the way that Boston was a machine and ran rough shot through everybody in Denver as defending champions.

They ran out of gas. The year that, I agree with you on that. I think it should, the two teams of this, the last five years, let's say, Denver and Boston. Boston blew it that year they lost in Miami. I think they should have been in the finals that year and they blew it.

And that was the year Denver ended up winning. and then the year Boston won it, I would say the Nuggets blew it, right? They lost and they should have, I think they really could have won that year. Last year, I think the Thunder arrived maybe one year early, but they deserve it too.

Right. So this, now we're in the Thunder era, and it's a matter of Ken Denver get any out of, out of the West, while it's the Oklahoma City Thunder era. That's true. Jeff to second apron CBA, death to it.

I hate it. Well, I got news for you, Vince. Many years were left on that bad boy. He left out. Yokic is the first time they won a game that he scored 50, and you were at it. That's right, which he immediately talked about last night after the game. He was like his first thing he said was, well, we finally won once. Yeah, he missed his first two shots.

I think he got mad, and he had 25 by the end of the first quarter. More hoop collective podcast after this. So the Lakers were, Perk had a funny line today on NBA Today. He was like, there's been a lot of damage down in Oklahoma City to the opposing teams this week because, like, you know, the Warriors went in there, got obliterated, and next thing you know, Draymond's calling out teammates for having agendas. And the Lakers came in there and JJ's all fluttered after the game because of the weapon that they got. So this was a game where, you know, the Thunder run the second I have it back to back.

And they did not have Jalen Williams, obviously, did not have Lou Dork because he's got an injury. So no Dorcher Chamber. Dorcher Chamber was locked. And, you know, obviously, you know, Aaron Wiggins, he's not a super elite defender, but he's another body they have you using the perimeter. Here comes Luca. He's red high.

He's leading the league in scoring. I'm thinking, you know, maybe this is a night. Maybe Luca, without those front-line defenders, maybe Luca, didn't he have some long streak of 20-point games? Like, you know, you're figuring he's just going to stretch out to 20. Maybe he puts up 45 in this game. Yeah, he has worst offensive game of the season. He had 19.

The Thunder double teamed him 14 times. Like there's people who are, I know that this is a topic. And I understand some of it is for radio purposes, Ramona, about whether they're better without LeBron. Oh, yeah, we've been getting into that on LA radio. Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. The Lakers, this, you know, I think the Lakers have done great without LeBron.

And then Luca was out and Austin Reeves was out. The fact that they've been able to position themselves like this, this is really going to potentially pay off. You know, you talked about, Vince, you talked about losing five in a row is like, puts you, like, behind the eight ball in the West. Well, if you can miss your stars for a stretch of games and have a winning record, it's huge. So I'm not, I am, I think the Lakers have done great.

But the reality is this. They are a bottom 10 defensive team in the league. They're a bottom 10 net rating team in the league. Okay. Like, their numbers indicate. that they should be a losing team at best 500. They have done really well mitigating their challenges because, you know, basically because Luca and Austin have been so great,

it's been the primary reason. They've gotten some good play from their role players. They've shown some depth, you know, they had that one stretch where they had six guys score 25 points in a 48-hour period. Like, that was definitely, like, really good for them. But, you know, Ramona, they need LeBron. Yeah. And I understand that working him in is probably going to mess with their flow a little bit.

But like, let's just have real talk here. I'm not even taking like, I'm not looking for an argument. I don't even think it's an argument. No, it's not an argument. Brian, the other day I was on with Steve Mason, you know, doing Mason in Ireland on L.A. radio. And he brought up a phrase from the past, which I correctly told him he needs to go back and reread your book with Dave McManumman about the very specifics of this term. But I think we're heading to this to a discussion where we bring back.

the term fit out and fit in, right? That's the old Cleveland Cavaliers reference. That was a sub-tweet, I think, directed at Kevin Love. I can let you fill in the whole story there. But the question is, it was very much directed at him. The question is, when LeBron comes back, does he need to fit out or does he need to fit in with what they've been doing, right? Do they fit him into what Luca and and Austin have been doing in the way they've been running their offense because they're getting they're both getting 20-something shots tonight and they're they're they got it humming but I should point out the Lakers always they tend to have a fairly easy schedule at the beginning of the year because a lot of their national TV games get after football so in the spring the networks like to pick

them against the best teams they're real head to heads so they've had they've had some you know they've taken care of the games they should have taken care you know they they they they beat the Charlotte on the road. I do think they did win some games with heroic individual performances. The couple of Austin Reeves games, there was a Jake LaRavia game. But when LeBron comes back, and I'll give you the floor because you are, you chronicled the fit in and fit out the ears. But what's the answer to that? Does he fit into what they're doing? Or does he try to fit out and just be LeBron and make them fit around him? Well, I think one of the things is that there's going to be a challenge is I want to see what LeBron's demeanor is. Okay. So, you know,

know, like, we've seen, you know, frankly, LeBron's demeanor kind of varies sometimes. Sometimes he's like super engaged and happy and bouncing and sometimes he's brooding. And so like the Lakers have a pretty good chemistry going, I think. I think so. I don't know if you agree with me. Like I like the energy of their team and everything like that. So, you know, like, and let's let's acknowledge LeBron's never done this before. First off, he had a knee injury at the start of the summer.

So he was totally off his game all. already. The MCL, yeah. You know, so he didn't have, you know, he was, I remember he even announced he was working out again, but it was like in July. So he missed that stretch. And then he has the sciatica, he's got to go through that. So even if, even if he was 10 years younger, he would be doing something he'd never done before,

which is joining a team midstream. And, you know, the team, you know, before everything happened at his whim, you know, now he's got to do something. So even if his intentions are 100% pure, he needs. may have a few little bibles and there may be some some rough moments but i i think it would be a good idea if he comes in and has less a displaced positive energy so it joins what's already been a positive energy okay so falls into the in category he struggles a little bit i guess i guess that's what you've worked me into saying i think that's i guess that's what the fun part about this

analogy and i love resurfacing old calves things um is that when luca came to the the Lakers, LeBron very notably told him, you need to fit out. Just go be Luca. Go be who you are. Don't feel like you need to try to fit into what we're doing. You need to fit out. Be yourself and we'll fit in around you. And I think that's what's happened. This happens to everybody in life. Like you're the golden child. You're the number one. You're the star of everything. And then all of a sudden, one day somebody else is. And it might be because you got older. It might be because somebody else is a new boss or they change things. Things just change. changed and it's not your fault.

Somebody likes somebody better. It's capricious sometimes. It's never happened to LeBron. And I think your point about demeanor matters. I think his social media is a pretty good way to judge that because he is, he has been tweeting a lot when he's when the Lakers been on the road or when Austin's been having a good game or somebody. He's been very engaged. And you can tell when he tweets, right?

It's always him. You know, you can tell somebody, you know, when it's him, it's obviously. Yeah, it's in his, yeah, it's in his, yeah, for sure. So I feel like he's been engaged. He seems to be sort of liking the camaraderie of this team. But you're right, there are other games where he looks disinterested and he's off in his own world or whatever it is. So, so let's see what it's like. Yeah, I'm not going to over and analyze what happens when he's sitting on the bench.

I'm just talking about, you know, you know that he plays in moods sometimes. So that's what I'll be watching, Vince. Yeah. Oh, Jackson says to it today, I love watching YouTube golf videos. It's random. I know. LOL is so cool. Right. I mean, that's definitely him tweeting that. Unless he got Magic Johnson's ghostwriter, you know, to do that one. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. What are you talking about, Ramona?

I tweet myself. That's my Magic Johnson impression. But I will say this because at the start of this, Wendy said that they're net rating and where they are says that they are a middle of the pack team. and then you talked about them being a bottom 10 defense. And then you're going to add soon to be 41-year-old LeBron James to a bottom 10 defense and we're going to expect to get better. I'm just saying that point right there. Like, LeBron can't turn his hips anymore and then he's got a lower leg injury. That does not say to me that you are going to be a better defensive player.

The Lakers, so much, Wendy, you said. You got revenge body Luca. Austin Reeves playing for a $200 million contract. DeAndre Aiton looks like a DeAndre Aiton that we haven't seen in years, right? Marcus Mark is Smart had a Marcus Smart game. Right, yeah, okay, most nights, right? Seven steals the other night for Marcus Smart. Right.

Like, you've gotten the max to large degree out of what you could get and then reality hit you smack in a face last night against Oklahoma City. And I don't think even if LeBron comes back, that LeBron is the difference between the Lakers losing by 50 to Oklahoma City and beating Oklahoma City. Once again, I feel like I'm the person that has to put cold water on stuff. Not because I don't think LeBron is historically great or great for his age or anything like that. I think the gap is so great between the Lakers and those two teams. It is tough to – and I think he's walking into a situation where we might expect too much from him.

because to some degree, the only thing he can do, lack of a better phrase, is F this up. Because everybody looks at how everybody is in place and playing well and the vibes are great. The first time something goes wrong, they're going to be looking at him like he, Kevin Love in 2014. So can I say a word for LeBos?

I think that's a fair, yeah. I thought last year was one of his best defensive years in a long time because they made him the quarterback of this defense. And they have this, we could get into exactly what they're running but it's it is it is based off a lot of when when lebron was running it he was almost he was kind of playing almost like a center position in a way like i don't want he was kind of kind of playing on the back line he was yelling and telling everyone where to go and he wasn't having to get out on the perimeter and chase guys around like they're going to

kind of they're kind of use him in that role i think and it should help their defense just because of how smart he is and how good he is in that particular think of a thing of him like a middle linebacker, okay? Instead of, you know, he's, I don't, I don't know where is he going to, when he plays offense, is the ball going to be in his hands or is he going to be in Luke and AR's hands? And then LeBron is out standing in the corner. Like that, that's a strange sight for me to picture. But they did a lot of that last year where LeBron is just spotting up from three.

And I don't know how that's going to feel for him. I don't, I don't, I know, no, I don't mean to jump in, Wendy. Okay. I don't think LeBron is going to come and make a debut. and be whistling in the corner. I think LeBron, as we know him, wants to be an impact player. Now, maybe you can stand to the side while Lucas dancing.

I don't think he's standing to the side why A.R. is dancing. I think he's going to assert himself and be LeBron James, as we know. Because he hears, as engaged as he is on social media, you ain't just tweeting and putting the phone down. You tweeting, you read, you're seeing what people are saying. Even if it's nonsensical,

Oh, look at how great the Lakers are about LeBron James. You don't think a big part of him. I'm not saying this because he has a big ego and egomaniac. I'm not saying. I'm saying the human part of this is saying, oh, you think they're better without me. Watch this. And he's going to want to come in and assert himself. I think that's human nature.

Sitting aside for Luca is one thing. Sitting to the side while A.R. and B. Andre Aid and running, pick and roll. All right, cool. Y'all got it. I don't think that's happening. That reminds me of the 2003 NBA, the national team. I was covering it,

and they wanted Anne Edwards to beat the sixth man. Yeah, okay. Which ended after about 10 minutes. And they were like, you know, in 2008, you know, in the redeemed team. Oh, yeah. I remember this. I mean, Austin Reeves was on that team, too. No offense to Austin.

And they were like, hey, you know, in the 2008 redeemed team, you know, Dwayne Wade came off the bench. Yeah. You know, because Kobe started. and aunt was like, all right, I didn't see Kobe. I looked out there and I didn't see Kobe. I'm sorry, Wendy. I didn't mean to destroy you landed the joke, but that, damn it, that is hilarious.

I mean, by the way, within like two days, they were like, actually, he's not the sixth man. He's actually going to be our best player. Right. So, Vince, another guy who was on that 23 team was, uh, Jalen Brunson. So you read the game, the Knicks had,

worse 7 and O at home at the Guard. And they've had a, I don't know if I'd say a favorable schedule, but certainly a home heavy schedule, and they've been taking advantage of it. They play eight of their first 11 at home. And you've been to a bunch of them. And Orlando, who's been playing better,

came in there, Paulo Bancaro goes out in the first quarter, it was the second quarter, but now he didn't play long with the groin injury. In the first quarter. Yep. And the magic lay the Smackdown, and then Jalen turns over his ankle late in the game.

And I think while we were doing this podcast, they made an announcement. But if you could take us through what was like in the garden last night. I will say this. And Nick fans, of course, will hate me. And don't hate me, y'all. I promise. I come in peace. I don't hate y'all.

I don't hate your team. I hate some of y'all fans, but I don't hate y'all like y'all, the Knicks as a whole. I will say this. Jalen Brunson was in the game with your down. almost 20 with less than two minutes left. McHale Bridges hadn't played in the fourth quarter. Josh Hart hadn't played in the fourth quarter. Jalen Brunton was still out there.

You're down 16. I think it was 115.99. And he sprained his ankle with 156 left. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been in there. I am saying that the tone of the discussion today would be totally different if Tom Thibberta wore the head coach. And he had left Jalen Brunton in the game, down 16 in the game on the second end of a back to back, right?

They played Memphis the night before, and that sort of thing happens. That's a really hard thing to reconcile. And I will say this, that locker room was really low. For a team that had won seven games in a row at home, for a team that won five games in a row at home. Like I haven't been around the team all year. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to like cast any aspersions. You've been around a fair amount.

Yeah. As someone who's covered a lot of bad teams or a lot of teams full of turmoil, I'm not saying this is a team full of turmoil. I'm just saying that I've seen moods that says, man, we've got a five-game losing street going on as opposed to, man, we've dropped the game against the team that we should have beat. You know what I mean? Like, that's the sort of thing that sort of sticks with you a little bit.

And I'm very curious to see how they play against Miami and it's home and home when Jalen Brunton is going to be out. at least for this game with a grade one ankle sprain. Last year he had an ankle sprain in L.A. in March, and he missed a month. He missed almost 15 games, right before the playoff. Same ankle, right? Same ankle. So you got to be really careful.

Also, he left the garden on crutches. I mean, you know. Crutches and a walking boot. Oh. Which I think nowadays people do the walking boot just to start the treatment and everything that I don't think it necessarily signals the same thing that it used to signal, you know, back in the day. but it is something that bears watching.

And for this team, everything bears watching. Yeah, so they play their ninth home game out of their first 12 in the in-season tournament, NBA Cup on Friday. And then they go on the road for five games. So, you know. In Cleveland Dallas.

Yeah, which, you know, I think that game's on ESPN. Dallas needs, I guess anybody. right now. But yeah, I mean, just, you know, into every season, choppy waters happen. You know, the calves right now, for example, or, you know, Darius Garland re-injured his toe. He's out, you know, indefinitely.

And so now, I mean, look, maybe that crutches were just precautionary, but maybe that crutches means he's going to be out for some games. And it's going to be a point where they're going to do it on the road. So the Knicks are about to get challenged, you know. And he's going to be evaluated daily. Let me make sure I say that. source told me that he's going to be evaluated daily. He's going to be out for Friday's game against Miami,

and he'll be evaluated daily after that. Maybe this is the best case scenario. Remember, he had the ankle sprains in the first round of the playoffs against Detroit and just came back miraculously and played and didn't look worse for where, right? So we never know. He could be bionic, man, and be right back at this. I don't want to say that he's going to miss as much time as he missed last year. but the history says that he missed a decent amount of time last season with this.

Yeah, that's a fair point about Tibbs. You know, like Tibbs is a bit of a polarizing, you know, he's a polarizing topic because he led them to their just best run in decades. And, you know, they made a change. And I will say this, independent of the injury and independent of last night's game, which was the second night of a back-to-back. And, you know, look, you know, you got to be real careful judging teams.

I know it was a home home back to back, but, you know, it's like you probably shouldn't judge a team in Oklahoma City. Like a regular season game in Oklahoma City. Or LA. Yeah, like, Draymond, like, ripped the team the other night. I'm like, Draymond, I respect what you're saying. You know what you're doing. And like, they had a great bounce back performance.

He led that with defense in San Antonio. They won. Yeah, like when you're on a six game road. Yeah, Steph was amazing. We got a six-game road trip and you take it in the teeth in Oklahoma City. Yeah. You know, I think the way to say it is that's a grace. That's a grace station.

It's time for a little grace in that spot. But having said that, so, yeah, before the back-to-back, the Knicks were playing really well, especially offensive. Yeah. Especially offensive. Just to bring up Oklahoma City, because I don't think we talk about them enough. You know, you can talk about them every time, but they're, they, they, they, they, they didn't have two of their starters last night. They didn't have two of their starters Wednesday night against the Lakers.

Yeah. And, you know, I watched the game and I saw how it unfolded. Like, it looked close for a minute and I was excited. This is going to be a real measuring stick kind of game. Let's see if the Lakers are for real. Let's see Oklahoma City when they're tired on the second night of a back-to-back. And then it's just, it's the way they get everybody humming. It's just the way it's like this swarm.

and like even even to the you know do we do we talk about a j mitchell yet a lot on this pod i i've heard you guys the last few times like no no we a little bit yeah yeah one of my favorite one of my favorite past times is to think about um all the good young players that the thunder just simply didn't have room for right that vitt cry check that guy's great in atlanta now right yeah i felt bad for vitt vitt vitt had like the one of the greatest games of his life the other day he had like eight threes or nine threes. But it happened on Monday night when there was like the greatest finishes in NBA. And like that was the last game of the night,

the Clipper game. Totally. Like, he didn't get his proper shine the next day. But like if you're a team in the NBA and you are looking for some good young players to develop, I would just stand next to the thunder whenever they have to make roster cuts and just grab that guy.

Like everybody they even cut is good. You know, that's real talk. They kind of have to. They kind of have to, they don't even have room for all these great players. And that's why when, you know, they don't have Aaron Wiggins and Lou Dort last night. It was fine. And I was like, oh, well, Kaysen Wallace is not as big as Lou Dord. Maybe Luca will post him up.

Nope, it didn't matter. Like they were just, they have so many good players. And even the ones that don't play. Like, have you ever looked at Jalen Williams stats? He doesn't even play that Monday. Not not J. Dubb, J. J. Will. okay. I mean, if you put him in there and he plays, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes

tonight, if you put him in a role where he played 30 minutes a night, he'd be double double every night. I mean, he'd be 20 and 10 maybe. Like, that's how good they are. I think it's funny. We've seen something like this before, but we've seen nothing like this before. That's right. Like, I go back to, I go back to the second Miami championship with LeBron. I'll go back to the first Kevin Durant year with the Warriors. I'll go back to the 92 Bulls. After you win that championship, the first one, you walk into the building the next year as an opponent knowing you have no chance. Like you lose the game before you walk in the building. Like there's something mentally that is taken away from you because that other team has such an

advantage and has such an arrogance. And I say this in a great way, in a complimentary way. Oklahoma City is so freaking arrogant. We just don't think of them as that because they are They're humble Oklahoma City with Sam Presti. They're nice guys and all that. You see the way they play. If they play it in a different jersey, we'd be talking about how swaggy they are and how much they don't give a,

I was going to say give a shit. Oh, I just did. Okay, you know what I mean? Like, we would say those things because they have such an arrogance about them. You can stay close. It doesn't matter. They didn't play well last night.

They shot, what, 31 from 3? They had 11 turnovers. Like, they don't beat them. They wait on you to self-destruct, and that has to be one of, if not the worst feelings as an opponent as you can have, that you are going to wait on me to destruct while you just go and play your game. They're not even playing against you. They're playing practice.

This stat that Jackson just put in here, the thunder of the fourth team in NBA history to outscore their opponents by 200 points in their first 13 games of the season. That's amazing because remember how close some of those first first. games of the year they played were? That's right. They had all those double overtime. So what about the rest of them? So I'll just say on draft night

2024, the Thunder, they actually had, you know, some of these years they have like seven second rounders. I think they actually kind of had a light second round. I think they had the 50 second pick in that draft. And they made a series of transactions where they moved up from like 52, they got number four,

They got 40 and then they did another swap. There's a lot of stuff that happens in the second round, but I'm pretty sure relatively, there may be some twists and turns that I may not 100% have, but they pretty much moved from 52 to 40 to 38 in a series of moves to get A.J. Mitchell, who was, you know, out of UC Santa Barbara, you know, from Belgium. And they signed them to a two-way contract.

And then they liked them after the first year, and they signed him to a three-year, eight and a half million dollar contract. contract over the summer. And now he is a bona fide rotation player. He's starting right now. And he's averaging 17. So no Jaylon Williams.

You know, Lou Dord is out. They move this guy in the starting lineup. He's averaging 17 points and shooting 46% from the field and defending his backside off. He's averaging almost two steals a game. I think they all average a steal a game in just 28 minutes. I know. Well, they all, I mean, they all average 12 deflections again. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Well, what will Yokic do next? What will we be calling Vince next week? Okay. Thank you very much to Jackson. You can call me Vinny once we're in the podcast. That's fine.

I respect it. I think we've had, I'm not going to mention it anymore because I've, Put you through it enough. All right. Thank you to Ramona, Momo, Shelburne. Thank you to Vince Goodwell. Thank you to Jackson.

Thank you for listening and watching and the hook collected all week long. And we'll be back with the Tims on Monday.