Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Potential De'Aaron Fox Trades, Surging Knicks & Struggling Celtics

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to Shams Charania’s report that the Kings are open to talks for a potential De'Aaron Fox trade including what teams could potentially be interested. Plus, the Knicks start to hit their stride as the Celtics struggles of the last month continue. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to Hoot Collective Podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us from Miami, Florida, he's back and not on vacation.

Tim Bonteps. Hello, everybody. What's going on to Miami, Bontemps? Why on Earth would you be sent there? A whole lot of nothing. That's what's what's going on in Miami. Joining us from San Francisco, California, where he's on a long road trip. We're covering a bunch of teams is Bann McMahon.

Howdy, partners. It is a pleasure to be here. I like Bontim's hotel room last time in San Francisco and look like he was podcasting from. the lavatory. I was not in San Francisco. You are now in San Francisco. I'm sorry. You're showing your age. Miami. This is a two suitcase trip for him, Bontems. How many pairs of shoes did you bring with you? Well, because I'm going to be seeing a bunch of different teams that felt comfortable recycling. I only brought five pairs of

shoes. Because he's this big believer. What's your thing you never wear two in a row or some nonsense? Well, no. Like if you're covering a playoff series, you can't wear the same kicks and you can't repeat kicks in a playoff series. That's a thing for sure. So if you go to a playoff series where you're not home, where you're all road games, you're taking seven pairs of shoes. Seven, yes. You're good math. Ridiculous. Plus, whichever ones I wear, like, the airport kicks, which are eight pairs of shoes. The more relevant part here is that we're going to have a whole lot of calves going over the next whole lot of calves corner over the next week. I'm going to see the calves today, Wednesday, when they play the heat sands Jimmy Butler. And the McMahon gets to see, I believe,

two games, right? Oh, yeah. I got the, I got a little Mavs, calves, and then Celtics calves, which will be a good one. Bond Timson and I worked out a little swap, so we didn't have to cross paths in the air from Cleveland and Philadelphia. You can wear the same pair of shoes in Cleveland twice. I'll give you permission. You've done it a few times, huh?

Yeah. All right. So right before we are recorded this, Shams Durania had one of the more pieces of, well, it's not super surprising if this would happen, but the timing is surprising. So Shams is reporting. that the Kings are going to listen to offers for Deerrin Fox. This was set into motion last summer when Deeran Fox turned down a contract extension offer by the Kings. It wasn't like, oh my God, like, you know, this is a huge problem because he had two years left on his contract. But

the Kings have at best spun their wheels this year. They've been playing well recently since Doug Chrisie took over for Mike Brown, but they're still headed for the play-in situation. And Fox's role has, he's having another very good season. but his role has sort of spun its wheels with the addition of DeMar de Rosen. And, you know, with, you know, this summer, he would really be under crunch time for extension or not. Basically, you extend or trade this summer. So it looks like the Kings are advancing forward quicker. So Bantam, this is a surprise.

This is a player who instantaneously becomes the most attractive, kind of the most attractive player on the market. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I think you can make an argument. This is the first time Deeran Fox has traded in the next. 10 days that we've really seen the Supermax fail. And I think it could be an interesting sign of things to come because, I mean, Donovan Mitchell was traded before the end of his second deal, but he was traded way before, way before he was really at the point where it's, well, he's either going to sign the Supermax or not, right? I mean, it was, it was the Caspe or the Jazz essentially decided, we're going to get a haul for Rudy Obert. We're going to go in another direction. We're going to,

reset our team. In this situation, we've talked a lot about all the guys that are hurt. I don't think Darren Fox is making the All-Star team this week. I do not think he's making all-MBA in a couple months, but he's having a very good year. There's at least a chance he can make All-MBA, and we're seeing essentially a possibility of him getting traded three months before he could be eligible to sign that deal. I just think there's obviously a lot to talk about with him with him in terms of, you know, where this is going, going forward and where he could wind up. But I also think it could be a sign of maybe things are shifting back in another direction when it comes to player movement in the league, particularly because part of the threat about his situation

right now is that he would like to go somewhere in free agency in 2026, which could be the first time we'd really see wider free agency come back into play across the league again. That's interesting to say by the Supermax. I just want to clarify it for the listeners and view. viewers. Darren Fox has one year left on his first max contract, what we call in the pod the fun max. It's 25% of the salary cap. The supermax would be if he made the all-star team, I'm sorry, made the all-MBA team. And then he would be eligible to sign for 35%. And whenever that's happened, the player has always signed because it's tens and tens of millions of dollars more.

That is a super max that he's referring to. If Darren Fox didn't make the all-star team, team and didn't, I'm sorry, didn't make the all-MBA team, I keep saying that, I'm sorry, didn't make the L-NBA team, then the contract that he could sign with the Kings is equal to the contract he could have signed per year, at least, with anybody becoming a free agent. So the King's advantage in resigning him wouldn't be there. And that, if he is not trending in that direction, the Kings would lose the advantage and potentially face losing him for nothing. So that's what Bont-emps is saying.

But I don't think he's going to be super max eligible. No, but all that you just laid out there is why the anticipation was this is going to be a summer decision. And we've discussed, like, it was very apparent that Deeran Fox was leaning toward asking out. We just thought it was going to be a little bit later. We thought it was going to be this summer. And kind of the supermax would have been maybe the only potential thing that could convince him to stay in Sacramento. You know, this is certainly what I believed. But again, his odds of getting all NBA this year are pretty slim.

I'm sure that he's considered that. I'm sure that, you know, Rich Paul, his agent, has considered that. And, you know, they feel like apparently that why wait when they can get to a destination where they want to be now mid-season instead of waiting for the summer? because he's only got one year left on his contract, he will get a say in how this goes. He doesn't have a no trade clause. He can't, you know, block a trade. But a team is not going to give the Kings a premium package for Deerrin Fox unless he indicates he will sign an extension after he arrives. So functionally, that's the way it's going to be, which is why his desires are important here and why that will dictate a lot of the way the Kings can can approach this. certainly teams can bid and, you know, they can't sign him to extension right after the trade

anyway. Like he's not eligible to sign until this summer. So a team can trade for him with the belief that they can convince him to do it, but that is risky. And so that's why you're going to see a lot of speculation as to what Deeran Fox's preferences are where he might go. So let's talk about some teams that we think makes sense for Deer and Fox. The one that immediately will come to the tip of anybody who's involved with the NBA who studies this is the San Antonio Spurs. The Spurs have been on the lookout for a star player to play with Victor Wemagnama, and they've been collecting assets to facilitate that. They've been hoping, I think, to draft that player.

They haven't had a chance yet, and we'll see what happens with this year. Well, you think Stefan Castle is? I think he's going to be awfully good. But, yes, the Spurs absolutely make a ton of sense as a Deering Fox destination team. they can very easily put together a deal with salaries that match up. And they have, you know, in Bobby Mark's future draft rankings, they were second behind only Oklahoma City in terms of the draft capital that they've been able to stockpile over these last few years.

Well, a big thing here is exactly what the kings are trying to accomplish about, you know, this is not a team that's positioned for rebuild. they're positioned to compete now. They obviously were a number two seat two years ago. Last year had almost an identical record, ended up in the play-in. And this year, we're disappointed and fired their coach who they had under a long-term contract.

I'm not sure that a trade that is totally built around draft capital is in the off-thing. I mean, they just signed Demard de Rosen. That's not a move by a team that's looking to reposition. They've also heavily invested in Demandis Subonis. Well, as a two-team trade at least. True. That's true. But if the spurs are motivated to get Deer and Fox, they have a lot of assets, and I don't know what exactly the whole thing might end up looking like.

We can start speculating and throwing stuff against the wall on a third team and, you know, this guy, that guy. All I'm saying is the spurs have plenty of ammunition to be able to put together. Let's say what the spurs have. So obviously, victory is on top. I would assume that Castle is untouchable. I mean, with all due respect to Deere and Fox, he's not Luca Don'ttich. So you're not, you know, you're not trading. Don't tell Vladay that. Well done. Well done. So you look on that team. You're talking about, you know, their biggest salary is Devin Vassell, $29 million. Keldon Johnson makes 19 million. Harrison makes 19 million. Harrison, who they

love makes 18 million and what recently left Sacramento. So I don't see that happening. But they do have big salaries that they can use, even if that wouldn't be the centerpiece of the trade. What the Spurs have is draft capital. So they have all of their picks, all of their first round, and all of their second round picks. In the world of teams trading eight consecutive second round picks like the Sons have, it's worth noting that they have no picks that are outstanding that are going anywhere. That's exceedingly rare. There's only maybe, you know, I think the magic are in that same boat, maybe one other team. So, the, The Spurs extra first round picks, and there are a number of them.

They have the Atlanta Hawks 2025 first round pick this year's pick. They have the Charlotte Hornets first round pick, but it's lottery protected. So it will not happen this year. And if it doesn't convey this year, which it won't, it becomes two second round picks. But it should be noted that they do have that first round pick. They have the Chicago Bull. This is the pick that we've talked about a lot on this podcast. They have the Chicago Bulls first round picks.

pick if it falls outside or outside the top 10. So if the bulls finish 10 or higher, they keep it and then it rolls over. It's top eight protected the next two years. So likely a late lottery pick at some point over the next few years. Right. That's a pretty valuable pick. They have the draft first round pick swap from Atlanta next year, 2026. That's a product of the Dejante Murray trade, which of course the Hawks have already traded Dejante Murray. And they have a, a 2027 first round pick for Atlanta, which I believe is unprotected. And a 2028 first round swap from the Boston Celtics, which, you know, may not seem that attractive, but who knows what the Celtics are going to be in 2028.

So they have, oh, and they have a 2030, was that a swap that they have? They have a swap between them, Dallas and Minnesota. They also have Minnesota's pick in 31. And they also have Sacramento swap rights from the DeMardo Rosen trade this summer when the Chicago Bulls traded to Mardi Rosen. and got nothing of the good things back in the trade. Sacramento, I get their swap rights back. That's all I'm going to say.

Yeah. So that's obviously an incredible amount of draft capital. Again, I'm not sure that draft capital is the BL end all when you're trading and in their prime player like Deer and Fox when you have other in their prime players on your roster. But that's there. So, Bontemps, I've talked for a while about San Antonio. know, somebody is going to want to be in San Antonio. I'm not 100% sure whether this is what the Aaron Fox wants to be all end all. Is the Aaron Fox a player that you sort of start to, you know,

in the world of trading five first round picks from McHale Bridges, that's the kind of price we're going to be facing here. First of all, let's see if it's that price because the Knicks shouldn't have paid that price in the first place. Right. But if you're, if you're Sacramento, that's where you're going to start. If that's the price, then no. That would be, I think, a bad move for the spurs to make. Now again, Deeran Fox is a very nice player, but Victor Webidyama is 21, right? We're talking about a guy who is just scratching the surface of who he's going to be. Yes, Deeran Fox is 27. He should be good for an extended period of time. But we've seen a lot of these guards and sort of his type class that get to the third

contract where it starts to go the other way in the middle of that deal. And I think this really comes down to what the price winds up being. If Stefan Castle is being asked in the deal, I would agree. I don't think they should do that. I would say if it becomes a four or five first round pick deal, I don't think the Spurs should do that either. Like the Spurs are going to be a attractive destination for a long time. And they have assets, we just laid out.

They have assets in 2031 that could be interesting. Like it's not like they have to do this today. So I'll be curious to see what the next eight to 10 days look like and where this lands. But there's a few teams that are going to have interest in the Aaron Fox. And they all have different levels of motivations, a different kind of package they can send Sacramento. I do think a lot of this, to your point, it's pretty important to think about what Sacramento will want and what they're going to try to try to try to try to try to start tanking or try to start losing games. I don't think that's going to be the plan. So it will be interesting.

But yeah, like if it's like, hey, we have to win a bidding war to get to Aaron Fox and we have to give up like the McHale. Let's say it's a McHale Bridges package. Let's say it's five first round picks and money. I don't think that would be a wise move for the Spurs to make. Well, number one, clearly Rich Paul and Clutch are trying to prevent this from being a bidding war situation by doing the best they can to be able to say, hey, this is where he wants to get traded. And again, the speculation, the strong speculation of San Antonio, we don't know that for certain at this point.

But, and kind of to keep other teams from getting into a bidding war, a potential, you know, a team that has the kind of assets where they could if they wanted to, but they're not going to get in a bidding war is the Houston Rockets. And we've talked a lot about the Rockets being determined to let this season play out. also, you know, they could put together a deal if they really wanted to, but like the Jalen Green contract doesn't kick in until next year. So him is almost a, as a very close match and salary, he's not even the case right now, but as well. Well, one of the people, one of the reasons people think Houston, not just their position, but that's Deer and Fox's home. Yeah, it's Deer & Fox's hometown. You know, the Rockets obviously are a team that's winning now. is a star away.

Now, perhaps that star might be emerging right under our nose of Almond Thompson, but that's another discussion. Anyways, but the rockets aren't, like, their whole thing has been we're going to be patient throughout this year. I checked in, and I don't think that's changing.

I checked in after the Shams broke the Deer and Fox thing. I think this summer, depending on how things played out, Fox would have been a serious consideration for them. But again, I don't think the Rockets are going to get involved here.

And then, you know, like, we can talk about the Miami or the Florida teams. I think the Florida teams, you know, we can talk ourselves into Fox being a good fit on either team. I don't think he'd be a good fit in Orlando. I mean, the last thing they need is another guy who's not a great shooter. I mean, he's a really good offensive player. But, I mean, they've already got Paolo and Franz who handled the ball a lot who are mid-30% three-point shooters for the most part. Like, they need a guy who can really shoot it. Miami, though.

Miami is interesting. Now, I'm just going to say, if Jimmy Butler lands in Sacramento is part of this whole thing, the Kings of Play. No, let me speak to that. As of the recording of this podcast, I do not believe that Jimmy Butler going to Sacramento is part of the option here. I have my reasons for that. Could change. This podcast is being recorded the day before it's posting. There's not been discussion, I think, with the Butler side. Not that that's absolutely vital, but that's, I can just leave it at that. that. Well, there you go. You know, the other thing is if, you know, there may be a preferred team, but the chances are that it's going to be more than one, you know, that there will be a list. So. Well, typically these things start out with a preferred destination and then it becomes a list. Right. So when it comes to Miami, you're talking about, if he winds up with, let's say he winds up with one of these four, one of these teams you mentioned, right? If he ends up with Houston with our yard, their young players, and he's from there. If he ends up with

Victor in San Antonio, where he's been Miami, where he's living in Miami, and he's playing with his best friend from college and Bamadabio. Like, it's not, I can't imagine any of those are scenarios where Darren be like, man, I'm just not going to stay here. Like, I suspect this would all wind up being pretty good options if it's one of those. Yeah, especially if they're putting a max extension on a table. But saying there's the most smoke around San Antonio right now. Wendy, I hear what you're saying in terms of, hey, a pick-heavy package, a pick-based package to Sacramento, given kind of the win-now charge that the Kings are under. And I've always been, despite the fact they've been in the playoffs once during my adult

daughter's life, just about, is insane. But, you know, okay, I'm just saying, it's not, if they want a player who can produce, it would not be hard to put something together with the picks they're getting from San Antonio, at least some of those going elsewhere. We can go down the list of big names who are available on the trade market now. And if Fox is moving, that's a big salary.

Well, the other thing is this, there aren't really a lot of big names on the trade market. And there's big salaries on the trade market. I mean, we can play semantics. Zach Levine's a big name. Brandon Ingram's a big name. I'm just throwing out guys who we know. Darren, you know, if you're trying to max, you know, one of the reasons why that Brandon Ingram and Zach Levine and Jimmy Butler haven't gotten traded is because there's not a whole heck of a lot of interest in them. And there's kind of this feeling in the league that even of the teams that want to make a big transaction may be keeping their powder dry for later when there are more attractive options. Dearen Fox comes on the market, a guy who's younger doesn't have as much baggage. And, you know, all of a sudden, it, you know, he's maybe the best.

thing available on the market and you may bring some people off the sidelines. Whereas in the summer, there could be multiple other players that are not available now that could be available that I don't want to get into. So it may be a strategic move from the Kings. They may not even trade them, but it may be a strategic move from the Kings to like say, hey, we, this may be a seller's market when it comes to high level talent and we may be able to get something there. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Maybe you're going to get dispatched to Sacramento there, McMahon. You and Bontemps can go back and forth with the trade guys.

Speaking of Bontemps in Miami, obviously the heat would have interest in trading for Deer and Fox. I'm not sure. Well, let's just stop for a second, right? We've spent a lot of time talking about the heat wanting to have salary cap space in the summer of 2026, almost said 2016, the Freudian slit. And there's a lot of reasons why for that, right? There's a lot of guys we've talked about in that summer who are going to be for agents.

One of them, quite obviously, is Deerrin Fox, who went to Kentucky, played with Bam Out of Bio there. Miami has long been Kentucky U and the NBA. Pat Riley obviously went to Kentucky. They've had a ton of star Kentucky players over the years. Tyler Hero. Now also potentially going to be an all-star this week, another Kentucky guy. So there's a lot of. Jamal Mashburn has been at the last.

last couple games I've been at, Courtside, another guy. They've had a long history of being a Kentucky factory here, and you pair Deerrin Fox with those guys. There's, that makes sense. And it lines up with what the heat have been trying to do over the past, the past few weeks, which is have an avenue to sign him or other players like him in the summer of 26. So I don't think Jimmy Butler is what, you know, and again, things could change, but I don't think Jimmy Butler is what the Kings are looking for. So is there, is there a move that they could satisfy the Kings that could get Miami D. Aaron Fox? Look, this would, you know, this brings in Bradley Beal. Like, could you get Bradley, you know, would the Kings want Bradley Beal? Would Bradley Beal go to Sacramento?

Is Matt Ishby had taken over the pod, McBand? Has he gotten on the mic? Like, what are, what are we doing here? What are we doing? Again, I think, I think it's more likely other teams that have been involved in Jimmy again. Levine is a name of the pop like Sacramento it was a different front office but Sacramento has put a huge offer sheet on the table for Levine before

I mean a Levine de Margaros and reunion so they can experience all the glory that they had together in Chicago again. I don't think it makes I don't think the Beale makes sense for the Kings so I deal doesn't make sense anywhere.

It's the world. contract in the NBA. Yeah. So they can do better than that. So I don't think that's the way to do it. Well, I think this is a real question, though. Like when you get into a situation like this, like yeah, Deer & Fox are going to have his suitors, right? Like, let's go back to the Donovan Mitchell situation, the founding of Cavs Corner, right? The Cavs came out of nowhere and traded for him. Now, he had more time left on his deal. It wasn't a year and a half, but the Cavs certainly were not on any list of teams Donovan Mitchell was going to go to, right? And then he went there. they had success and then he stayed there.

Yeah, and if we're being honest, Donovan had a one clear preferred destination. It was New York. Absolutely. There are others that, you know, Donovan never quote unquote requested trade. Everybody just knew we wanted out of Utah, but whatever. But yeah. And then we didn't think Donovan was going to stay in clear. I won't speak for Wendy.

I won't speak for the Calf Corners. I was highly skeptical. Everybody was skeptical at the time. Bomb Tempts and I flat out, I will say, I did not think at this point last season that Donovan from Mitchell was going to be staying in Cleveland long term, but he felt like he could win there. There weren't necessarily great options for him. There was a max extension sitting on the table. He signed that thing, and I guarantee he's got no regrets about that right now. Yeah, no, but I do think, like, you get into this situation, and, like, a lot of this is going to

come down to. I mean, it's sort of like what we've been talking about with Miami, right? Now, it's obviously different because Deer and Fox, while he isn't perfect, certainly is going to have a lot more suitors for many reasons than Jimmy Butler does. But like we've talked a lot about what are the things the heat want in a trade, right? Probably the overriding one especially is no money after 26 to make sure it doesn't impact that 26 free agency. The question here is going to be, what is Sacramento going to want? Are they going to want players that can help them now? Are they going to want draft picks? Are they going to want the best combination of stuff they can get? Are they going to want a certain kind of player? Like do they want to find another like-for-like replacement for Deeran

They don't really have another guy like that on the roster. They could just have De Marder Rosenplay point and get some other bigger wings. Like there are different things they could do. But I think that bad is going to be very fascinating if this does get to the point where he's traded to see what Sacramento looks for. Because once you find that out, then because like with Miami, you know what Miami wants. So then you could start to look around the league and say, okay, where are situations that fit the criteria the heater looking for? And then you could sort of diagram out what the trades could be. here it's still so early that we don't know exactly what the kings are looking for

that would be a very big domino to fall here because then you'll have a sense of okay if they're looking for x y or z these are the teams that can maybe get him that then he can figure out where he might ultimately land in all right so Miami if they made an offer that didn't include jimmy they could potentially make an offer with stuff that they would get for jimmy which could potentially be a first round pick or two they're out a future first but they could you know I'm not sure Tyler Hero. I mean, Tyler Hero might get named an All-Star tomorrow, but, you know, I would think Miami would be, I think Miami would be interested in any star player that comes available.

I don't, you know, I don't know if they could manage doing two separate transactions, but I think they need to be considered on the list for sure. The heat are always, the heat always have to be considered on the list for a star player. They've, they've spent 30 years getting star players to come here. The Brooklyn Nets are another team that has a lot of assets and is in, is in talent, acquisition mode. You know, they may have some, they have gigantic ideas for the future with gigantic names. But if they could execute a trade for Deer and Fox, I don't think it would hurt them.

I don't think that hurts what they're doing. But I would, anytime you see any player. It doesn't help them keep their draft pick this year. Well, it's not even keeping. They need to keep their draft pick. But get the draft pick to be as high and possible in the draft as it needs to be, which is what the whole point of trading for the pitch. If they trade for Deer and Fox, his back needs to tighten up on the flight over the

there so you can sit the rest of the season. Well, the Kings, that's the other thing why I'm a little bit, the Kings, as far as I know, Bontems, as recently as yesterday, I was talking to people who thought that the Kings were buyers at this deadline, as just as an aside. And I

bring up thinking about the Nets because Cam Johnson is a guy they've had interest in. Another guy, I don't think I'm talking out of school. Am I talking out of school if I mentioned? I don't know if I should say it. But there's other players... Well, blurt it out now. No, there's other

players that you would consider that that would be buys for them you know so this is a pretty hard turn but you know they have been talking to the Nets throughout the season so you know maybe who else should be on the list on times I mean I think there's four teams that logically

can make arguments to go after them and they are the heat the spurs the rockets and I think you have to just include the Lakers by default because Deeran Fox is a clutch client and no I I confidently was scratch the Lakers off. Well, I'm not saying the Lakers are going to get him. I'm saying that he's a

clutch client. They have several first round picks. They have Austin Reeves. They have stuff they could throw together. I'm not saying they're going to get a trade done. But I think that's sort of where the end of the list of, you're asking me where he winds up, I assume it's one of those four teams. I think the Lakers, the Lakers come up because people connect clutch dots. And I don't think that there's a motivation from Clutch to put Deer and Fox on that Lakers roster. I mean, especially when you have another pretty prominent clutch client, Anthony Davis, who's begging and pleading for them to acquire a big man. Again, that would be a...

I think if they could get Deer & Fox, Anthony Davis would be fine and not getting a senator. I agree. I agree. I just think that, again, that's a draft, you know, that would be a trade to get those Lakers draft picks, which would be very valuable. But I'm not sure that's what Sacramento is looking for right now. I mean... And I don't think he's ending up with the Lakers.

I just think, like, look, there's a couple factors. here, right? One, he's got a year and a half left till three agency. Two, like, again, Deer & Fox is a good player. He's a very good player. He's made one All-Star team. Like, he's entering his late 20s. He's not a great shooter. So there are some potential drawbacks as he gets into his early 30s where this contract in a few years could not look very good. So I don't think it makes sense for a team like the Nets to trade for him. That doesn't make sense for a team like the Utah Jazz to trade for him, has stuff to trade. So you start crossing off a lot of teams. there's also just a lot of point guards in the league. So like you just start going through teams and like,

I'm just saying in team because it's funny because they traded him away from Sacramento, but like the Pacers have Tyrese Albert doesn't really make sense to pair him with Deering Fox. The Atlanta Hawks already have Trey. Yes, that was already tried. Thank you. Right. The Knicks obviously have Jalen Brunson. The Celtics have a bunch of guards. The Cavs have multiple great guards. Well, you know, again, we're in the land of spitballing here because we haven't done the reporting yet. Toronto would be an interesting, that would be a team. I guess, but like, but that's the kind of team that you're really, they're really taking a risk because that's a kind of team where they're not going to be on Deer and Fox's list of preferred destinations. And

this is like, for example, the Mavericks traded for Christophe was in this when he was not on, or they were not on his list of preferred destinations, but he was a restricted free agent. This is not a restricted. This is a guy who's going to be an unrestricted free agent if he doesn't sign an extension. So if the message is, hey, don't trade for me. I do not want to be there, then I would as a rebuilding team certainly heed that warning. Yeah. Listen, there's not a lot of teams with heavy draft capital to make trades. There's a lot of good guards in the league. There are not a lot of teams that are in a position to make this kind of trade. So I think the world is fairly small of realistic options for him to go somewhere. I think, again, it's going to be a two-part question.

One, you know, I'd be very surprised if he wound up in, like I agree with you on Houston, but if he wound up in Houston, San Antonio or Miami, just as three examples, I suspect he'd probably be very happy with any of them. Then the question is, what does Sacramento walk? And when we find that out, which again, this just all happens, so we haven't really had a chance to dig into it yet, then we'll have a much better sense of where he could go because then you could start to draw lines toward which teams have the stuff Sacramento wants. And again, I would tend to assume with the team the Kings have put together, they're probably going to want stuff that can help them now or they're going to want a trade that ends up with them with stuff that can help them now, even if it means that it's,

you know, there's like to McMahon's point, it's a multi-team trade where they have, they get draft picks, they rerout them elsewhere or whatever. But like, it'd be surprising if they come out of this with a bunch of draft picks and they just take a step back. Well, I will say, just an FY. The Kings are in 10th place in the West as we record this. And their first round pick is top 12 protected to Atlanta. Yeah. There's also two games out of sixth. Right. Well, that's the Western Conference. You know. Right. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. The Knicks have scored 143 points in back-to-back games and regulation, Bontems. They've won four in a row. They just beat the Grizzlies who had one of the longest winning streaks in the league at six games.

Mikhail Bridges in that game against Memphis had 28 points. It was plus 43, I think. And John Morant, who was his primary defensive assignment, was minus 41. The five first round. Two assists, five for 13, four turnovers, minus 41 in 27 minutes. That folks is hard to do. So you were at that game at the Garden. So this is, you know, this has kind of been who the Knicks are, although this is an extreme

situation with their offense. And it was interesting because, you know, the Knicks and Grizzlies are opposite ends of the spectrum. The Grizzlies have, how many guys they play, McMahon? They play 10 or 11 a night. I think they play 18, all three two-way guys in the entire roster. They, nobody average-Jenkins made a point before the game of saying they have a 10-to-11 man rotation, and this was being asked about in particular in New York because there has been a, shall we say, a very heavy focus by the reporters in New York on the minutes played by the mixed starters. So this was the polar. The Tibbs Minute Police, baby.

Well, this was, this was, my guy, Stefan Bondi, my longtime friend and a colleague in the New York press corps is now the beat writer for the Knicks replacing Mark Berman. For the post. He comes in there and says, you know, Taylor, you don't have any of your guys playing even 30 minutes a game. Is that how intentional a thing is that? And Taylor went into how they're playing all these guys and managed to do that. It was like, it was an accident. I didn't even notice it. Well, and then, by the way, they go out in the game,

and Towns and Brunson don't play in the fourth quarter because they're up by $8 billion, and they force 26 turnovers in the game and absolutely throttle these guys. I asked John after the game what happened. He just said turnovers. So turns a problem all year. We've got to be better about taking care of the ball. Well, I hope the Grizz has at least had like a good dinner in New York while they're there, maybe saw a Broadway show or something.

I mean, it's some sort of entertainment. 26 turnovers is hard to do, and they were flinging it all over the place, and the Knicks kept getting one run out after another. I did see Marcus Smart, my old pal from Boston, walking around. Sounds like he's going to be back soon. He's the guy that's come up a bunch over the last couple weeks going into the trade deadline. Very curious to see what potentially happens with him. Yeah, it's an interesting spot there.

He will not get a starting job back in Memphis. Jalen Wells has been an absolute steal as a second round pick that they honestly thought was going to get a lot of minutes for the Memphis hustle this season. You can make a real argument that Jaylon Wells is the rookie of the year this year. Listen, a 3-and-D guy contributing to a team that's on a whatever, 50-plus win pace. Listen, he's playing 26 minutes a game. He's starting. He's scoring 11 points a game.

He's shooting 39% from three. And he takes the toughest defense of assignment, usually one for at least three sometimes even. for. But nobody executed their defensive assignment on the Memphis versus last night because Nick scored on, what was it, 143 points. So

Mitchell Robinson is still not back. It was like one of these things in training camp that was like, well, he might not be back till the new year. And people were like, oh, my gosh, that's a long time away. It's well into the new year. Still not practicing. Last update on Friday was he's still not ready for contact and for practice. Well, listen,

I mean, he had a similar surgery is to what Jared Vanderbilt did with the Lakers. And similar to Vanderbilt, it was for a situation that had been a little chronic. And Vanderbilt missed almost a calendar year. So, you know, and I mean, I'm not trying to say it's exactly the same, but like, you know, returning from a foot surgery is not a joke. You know, it's not too much of a guy who's, we're talking about a guy who's played 31 games in two of the last four seasons. Well, how many games at Vanderbilt played? It's not about the same. I'm just saying he's had a ton of injuries. He missed a ton of time last year and now he hasn't played this year. So I have frankly just been assuming he's either not going to play

or not going to be much of a factor the entire season because I just don't know why you would assume the guy is going to be out there and healthy at some point. Now maybe that will be proven wrong about that. But given Mitchell Robinson is making $14 million and given we just talk about the depth of the Knicks or the lack thereof and the hot, I'm a hot topic that has been all season, It's going to be very interesting to see what happens between now and the trade deadline. And I think if Mitchell Robinson is not traded, some of that is the Knicks don't have a lot of assets left because they basically spent them all this summer to get Carl Towns and McHale Bridges. But I think some of that would be them saying, we believe Mitchell Robinson will be back and can be an impact player for us down the stretch and in the playoffs. That is a common refrain from their organization for months.

That their deadline acquisition is Mitchell Robinson. And I think we'll find out how much they believe in that. in part by what happens over the next 10 days. Because again, actions over words, right? If we're doing this pod next Thursday night after the deadline and Mitchell Robinson has been traded, I think that's probably, I mean, who knows? Maybe they get some incredible player for Mitchell Robinson. I think it's more likely it's an indication that they're not sure he's going to be healthy

and this is the team that's obviously trying to win right now. They don't trade him. Then I think you'd have to assume he's going to be out on the court and playing or at least a factor down the stretch. and if he's not, that's something that'll, you know, be reflected on Leon Rose going forward because, like, they were obviously all in on this team, and that's the one significant piece they have left to move to try to add to the roster if they choose to. And I think a lot of that will come down to what they believe his availability is going to be. I'll point something out.

With the winning straight that the Knicks have just gone on, they are now right on the Boston Celtics heels for that number two seat. And that is a reminder of the, depth of the east this year compared to last year when the Celtics who we're going to talk about in a minute the Celtics basically i i forgot they were in the eastern conference playoffs you know McMahon bond temps is up there covering the Celtics like i'm going back and forth between new york and and indiana you're going back and forth between Denver and minnesota and uh or did you do that series no no no i had the mouths and i was but there was making that long trip from death from dallas The second game series.

Just that long, tough journey. All these seven games series, that series was a heavyweight fight. And it was like Boston wasn't even in the playoffs because they barely had to break a sweat in the Eastern Conference. And that's just up the team. Or in the finals,

to be honest with you. So the Celtics have lost five straight home games. They lost four home games all the last year. They've lost nine so far this year. The game that they lost to the Rockets on Monday night, pretty remarkable final minute, much credit to the Rockets. We talked about them earlier this week. I didn't think the Celtics played poorly in that game. I think they were missing three rotation players. And I thought they did a pretty good job

against the Rockets. They did a nice job defending Alperin Shingoon and Jalen Green. And Dylan Brooks had a career game and Almond Thompson had a career game, although he may have more games of this nature coming forward. But I don't, that loss, I'm not even like, there was some defensive breakdowns in the last minute, which is not normally going to happen to them. But they're taking some losses and they're playing their front line guys a lot of minutes. So this is the one thing. Like, you know, whether they have, you know, whether they're the two seed or the one seed or the three seat even, you know, I think they'd prefer to be the two to have home court in the second round because that's potentially a tough series with the, with the Knicks. But their minutes for their key guys

are up. Jalen Brown's playing more minutes. Derek White's playing more minutes. Tato's playing more minutes. They're playing more minutes and they're losing more. It'd be one thing if they were taking some losses because they're, you know, their three points variance is down and and their effort level isn't there. They're trying to win these games. They're just getting beat. And so, you know, we've been talking about this for weeks now, Bontemps, because I think they're three and nine, their last 12.

Like, I'm not worried about them as a team, but I am not thrilled that they're expending so much energy and still losing these games. Yeah, I mean, it's been a, like we've talked about, it's been a weird season. I mean, even during this stretch, they're 13 and 11 in their last 24 games. They're eighth in offense,

their fourth in defense on their third net rating. God, that's great. I know it's great. That does not add up. No. So like, you know, and they're three and five in clutch games on those games. So they've lost some close games. But, you know, I mean, they just have sort of been in a funk.

And look, I think when you look at their team, this is a team that obviously has played deep in the playoffs the last several years in a row. They had multiple guys playing in the Olympics this summer. They then come back. and they go to Abu Dhabi in October, and then Christas Porzingis missed the first couple months of the season. So I do think there's some fatigue. I do think, I don't think boredom is the right word,

but I do think there is a bit of a, you know, sort of like the calves in the back half of the, you know, the LeBron Cavs Part 2 stint, you know, sort of believing that they're going to be able to take on whoever they take on in the East without much trouble. Not without much trouble, but they feel confident they can play anybody and win. But on the other side of it, we talked about this recently. I don't remember who it was that brought it up.

I know we talked about on the pod. I think it was you that brought it up there, McMahon, but it's been in my head ever since. We had this similar conversation last year about Denver basically all year. And nobody was ever worried about Denver. Denver's awesome. They've got the best player. They're going to win again. And then they get into the second round of the playoffs.

They're playing Minnesota. The series gets to seven games. They're up, I think, 20 in game seven. And they just ran out of gas. Still amazing that they lost that game. And it just, it does, that since I heard that comparison, it's stuck in the back of my mind that I don't think that's going to happen to this team. And I think I would pick them to beat everybody in the east.

But we're talking now about a 24 game sample where they have been struggling to get wins. and I do think the comparisons with Denver last year are pretty interesting, and it would be nice to see them snap out of this funk at some point soon. Yeah, and in Dallas, you know, they won that game, but there was a lot of discussion just about kind of this extended mediocrities may be too strong, but, you know, they've been pretty average for well over a month now. So there's a lot of discussion about that. That's where poor Zinghas had the whole lions and house cats, quote,

readily admit that they haven't been as sharp, that they need to find that killer instinct, as he put it, you know, the focus, but it's hard when you're coming off of the championship run. It's kind of midway through the regular season, and you just want to kind of, you know, look at the counter and be like, how long until the playoffs start, that sort of a thing. But when I've watched them, I haven't, I don't, I mean,

I thought they've looked tired. Well, that's why I don't think they've looked. I don't think they've looked unfocused. Derek White talked about the fatigue. And just like you guys laid out, obviously they played. They were the last team standing. So deep, you know, long playoff run, even though not a particularly stressful playoff run, but they were playing for a while.

Right, right. Guys playing for the national team. And then, look, when you're the defending champ, not that the Celtics weren't getting, you know, it's not like teams were overlooking the Celtics before, but when you are the defending champ and, you know, the clear-cut favorites going into a season. It's different. Yeah, it's different. And so they're dealing with all that. And the other thing that's different is the Knicks are a significantly better team than last year and the calves are a significantly better team than last year. Yeah. And look, I'm not making sweeping statements in January,

but there is a reason no one has repeated in seven years. It's hard to do. It's right. McMahon, by 9 a.m. today, Bon Temps had already flown to Miami. Oh, my God. You were just boarding your plane to San Francisco and you were, you were surly. Listen, I don't operate well before double digits. But it just stopped that I don't operate well. It would have been a good place to stop. But there's a reason the policy is that double digit boarding flights are, you know, got to crack the double digits.

Well, that is a McMahon Sleep update. So congratulations. The overrunner was 0.5. We hit it. All right, thank you for watching and listening to The Hoop Collective. Thank you to Bonn-Tempson McMahon. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. We will talk to you later this week.

Adios amigos.