Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Reaction to Blockbuster NBA Trades: Harden To Cleveland, Jaren Jackson Jr. To Utah & More!

Episode Date: February 4, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to a wild day of NBA trades including the blockbuster deal sending James Harden to the Cavs and Darius Garland to the Clippers. Next, the guys break down Jaren Jackson Jr. getting traded to Utah, discussing what it means for the future of the Jazz and what it may signal for Ja Morant’s future in Memphis. Then, we tackle an interesting set of moves by the Bulls and wonder what the vision is moving forward. Finally, will Minnesota get better this week or are they in a money saving mode? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday evening, joining us from New York City,

where he attended the Lakers at Nets game on Tuesday night. Tim Bond Temps, did LeBron talk about all those great memories at Parkley Center, impossible last game there? I doubt it. I doubt that he did. I doubt it was quite the same celebration as Sunday night. I just wish people could get access to our, outtakes for our technological snafus on the pod.

It would be, we could be, we could be very profitable on a side business of just showing people the behind the scenes. Tonight I locked myself out of the studio here in L.A. And our next gentleman can't make his AirPods work. And despite all the King's horses and all the Kingsmen, joining us from the American Airlines Center in Dallas, Texas, where he saw the Boston Celtics beat the Dallas Mavericks tonight is is Bam McMahon. Howdy, partners. Saw Cooper Flag score 36, 119 over the last three.

This guy, hey, listen, I don't know why Jason Kidd's so angry. I don't know why anybody with Dallas is all worried. You guys are just fine. Just, just everything in Dallas is going to be okay. Well, I would say they've got the hardest part done, and that's getting a dude to build around. It's all part of the plan, baby. This one will be here for a while. This one will be here for a while. They've got a lot to figure out around him.

But anyways, let's talk about the deals that have happened already. Yes, yes. We've got something to talk about. We did. We had an action-packed Tuesday in the NBA. First, a little action in Cavs Corner. And got a new Cavs in Caves Corner. James Harden comes to Cleveland in a trade for Darius Garland, which rates as a quite unexpected swap.

If we had told anybody in October, much less than, last week that James Harden would be a cab. It would have been pretty surprising. It is sort of a kind of an outrageous turn in the way the calves had been operating. They have their reasons. We won't know. It's kind of fascinating. The Cavs play the Clippers on Wednesday night here in L.A.

And then they go up to Sacramento and play the Kings. So the guys they just got from the Kings who will play their first game on Wednesday, get to play in their return game. So the return games happen. I would be highly surprised if James Harden plays against the clippers on Wednesday night. But we'll see that's something totally different. You think he's going to duck the wall? Is that what you're saying?

Well, Darius Garland can't play because he's still coming back from a toe injury. So he won't play for the clippers. This is an awkward trade. because James Hardin coming in with the Cavs, it's just the way he plays is not the way they have played. Yet, Bontemps, I understand why the calves talk themselves into it. Hardin is a better player than Darius Garland. He's 10 years older, and in two years, I'm not sure you can say the same thing.

But he is a better player and he's been a more reliable player. Whatever you want to say about Hardin, he plays. He plays in games when he's not setting them out due to trade requests. And the calves are, I think the big thing that you can take away from this is the calves are all in on 2026. The calves are all in on keeping Donovan Mitchell. This is what we've been talking about for over a week. The calves know they have to be good this year to give themselves the best chance of getting Donovan Mitchell, the best player, how many players in Cavs' issue have been better than LeBron James

or better than Donovan Mitchell besides LeBron James? Yeah, none. None better than LeBron and no more talented than... Maybe. Like in all seriousness, what's the list of players? I think Donovan's the second most talented player in franchise history. Wendy, would you disagree? Donovan Mitchell, here's how I can put this.

The last two years, last year and this year, are the two best non-Lebron seasons in Cavs history. That's the best way I can put it. And that's why the Cavs are... For the individual player. Yeah. Right. And that's why the Cavs are feverishly working

to try to improve this team to make the kind of playoff run to that they can. Donovan Mitchell has not made out at the second round of the playoffs in his career. This has been a disappointing Cavs season. They won 64 games last year before the disappointing loss to Indiana.

They came into this season, I think, in the consensus ahead of the Knicks as the favorites to win the East. East at worst. They were co-favorites, and they've been in the bottom half of the East playoff picture all season. So that was not going to be good enough. And like you said, Brian, this is an awkward fit. It's an awkward fit from an age range perspective. It's an awkward fit from James Hardin dominating the ball, because we know James Hardin is going to come in and dominate the ball. Like, it's going to make Donovan Mitchell's life easier in some ways, but James Hardin plays the way James

Hardin plays. He's done it now for whatever, 13, 14, 15 years. And he's going to have the ball in his hands a lot. But he is clearly a talent upgrade on Darius Garland, at least the current version of Darius Garland, who has either been ineffective or injured this season. And for a Cavs team that has to win right now, it makes sense to swap out Darius Garland for James Hardin for right now. And like you said, this is about 2026 and the 2026 playoffs and getting Donovan Mitchell to extend. in the 2026 off season. And if the calves are able to do that between now and July,

they're going to be feeling like they had a successful six months. And that's why they did this deal. And that's why we'll see if they do other stuff over the next couple of days to try to be as good as they can for this playoff run. A couple things I'll say about the fit.

Number one, it was an awkward fit with Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland just because it's really hard to win at the highest level. They won 62 games last year. I understand, but I'm just saying. It'd be that awkward. It's really hard to win. win at the highest levels with two small guards, right?

And that's why there was... Yeah, but that's because they're taking advantage of defensively. I don't think James Hardin's going to be stopping anybody. Okay. And but that's, I was going to mention that. Obviously, this is a significant size upgrade. Typically, though, when you talk about the size upgrade, you are discussing the impact on the defense of end.

Hardin will rebound on that end. You know, not exactly a stopper. But in terms of offensive style of play, Hardin style of play, you know, Yes, he's still going to have the ball in his hands a lot, but he is much more table-setter than, you know, he's much more of an elite table-setter now than the, you know, generational score that he was at his peak in Houston. And, you know, they'll stagger their minutes.

Donovan's still going to probably be on the floor without Hardin for 12 to 15 minutes a game. Donovan's going to get plenty of shots and all that. I think they'll figure the style out without too much issue. To me, I'm curious to see, look, why did James Harden request to trade, right? Well, that's the second half of the conversation. Right. We'll get you one second. Yeah, he's a basketball mercenary who, when it makes business sense for him to get out of town, he's going to get out of town.

And so I am curious to see how this makes business sense for him, you know, how the calves make it make business sense for him. Well, yeah, that's the Cavs probably, I don't have the details yet, but the Cavs probably agree to something financially, probably. I don't know for sure, but we'll get to that in a second. I just want to talk a little bit more about this from the Cavs perspective. If you're wondering, like, how could this possibly come together? The thing about it is that the Cavs is a second apron team. They have a point guard that they want to change slash upgrade from. And the guy makes $39 million. They couldn't, they couldn't combine him. with anybody. They, you know, they had to get a player they believe is an upgrade who they couldn't combine them with anybody who made slightly less money. And there was like 300,000 less money, by the way. The pathway is extraordinarily narrow. You know, Bontemps and I talked about this.

When the Cavs got struggling out of the gate, I started looking around for who could they trade Darius Garland for? And Bontems, who did I cut? I mean, who did we come up with as an option two months ago? Who wasn't? Oh, you're not going to say. I was going to let you do it. It was John Moran.

We were like, you know, would the calves do John Moran? Is that really an upgrade? Like, that's what we were, you know, I'm sure the calves went through. You know, who could we trade for? It was a very small list. And one of the players on the list is James Harden. And so. Barely.

Makes $300,000 less. So therefore it's a legal trade. We're like, okay, of the couple of players that they could make a deal with that could be deemed as an upgrade by their point card situation, you had a guy like John Moran who makes, the exact same amount of money. And yet a guy like James Harder, and there may have been a couple more. And so Harden, meanwhile,

I'm going to pivot over to the clippers here. Last summer, Hardin signed a contract that is pretty unique. I wouldn't say it's unheard of, but it's pretty rare. He signed a two-year contract. First year is guaranteed $39 million. The second year is $42 million.

But only 30, and it's a player option, So it's James Hardin's option to opt in or he could become a free agent or opt into that contract for next year. But of the $42 million, only $13 million is guaranteed. I wonder how they came up with that number. There had to have been some speculation where they decided it was $13 million. Maybe it should be to Paul George is his number for the Clippers. It probably was had to do with something that the Clippers would have done to stay under some apron maneuver. So it was kind of a mutual option.

And so Hardin was having a very strong year, borderline All-Star, and he was getting close to the deadline. And I don't exactly know how this went down. I may learn more in the coming days. Somebody may have a story that explains it. But he gets getting to the point where he was running into the trade deadline. And this was his time to have leverage because he was playing well and the Clippers were playing well. And at some point, he had a discussion with the Clippers. What about that option?

Are you going to pick it up? Am I going to get the full $42 million? Hey, what if I don't pick it up? would you be willing to sign me to another contract, you know, another one plus one contract? And whatever the clipper said, Hardin didn't like it. Clearly. We know Hardin didn't like it because I think we can extrapolate what the answer was very clearly

because James Hardin has done the same thing several different times in his career when he's basically taken his ball and gone home when he hasn't gotten the contract he wants. And he's always gotten what he's wanted. Sometimes he's had to wait a little longer. Sometimes he's had to go through some stress. Sometimes he didn't get the exact dollar amount he wanted. at the exact place he wanted, but he got what he wanted. Now, because his contract was structured that way,

and I know that trade clauses are complicated in the NBA, but there's only one player with a full no trade. That is LeBron James. But if you have a one-year contract in the NBA, and, you know, you're coming off a contract with a team, and then you sign another one-year contract, if you get traded, you lose your bird rights. and that means that the team that you get traded to can't sign you for any amount.

And so that means you're penalized. So you get what is known as an implied no trade. You have the ability to say, no, you can't trade me. I don't want to lose my bird rights. And so when James Hardin entered into this situation, he had the ability to block any trade. And he also had a 15% trade kicker, which means. if he got traded, he would get a 15% bonus. There's a lot of these out there.

But here's the problem. If that 15% had been triggered, he would have been over the allowed trade amount that the calves were allowed to trade for because of the second apron. So, okay, James Harden had to say yes to two things. He had to waive the trade veto and he had to waive the trade kicker. Okay?

and he was not going to do that for free. No. All right? So he had to have some talks with the Cavs about what they are going to, what their intentions are, whether they agreed on next year, like picking up that option. So his full $42 million is guaranteed or they agreed that they would revisit his contract and maybe give him a new deal. I don't know. Maybe I'll find out. But that was all part of it.

And the Clippers had won 17 out of 21 games. I think that they probably this. I mean, I was at the game on, those are the Clipper game on Monday night. When I went into the game, I knew that this Hardin thing, all three of us knew. We knew that Hardin had asked for a trade,

and we knew he was likely going to Cleveland. You guys basically hinted at this without mentioning Hardin on the last pod, but go on. Yeah. Sometimes we can't say what we know. And I've never seen, it's such a surreal situation. We didn't know about it.

We didn't know about it at that point, though. We just thought the Cavs were going to do stuff this week. But by the time the game got here on Monday night, we knew. So I'm at the game. And everybody around the court, like when I say around the court, pregame, there's a bunch of agents and scouts and things there. Everybody knew. Hardin was ruled out due to personal reasons. after being ruled out Sunday night for personal reasons.

The whole league was aware what was going on by then. I can't say that every player knew, but I talked to two players that knew, one on each team. Yeah, it was an open team. Not only did they know that Hardin was getting traded, they knew he was likely getting traded to Cleveland. So it was like this surreal thing.

And the Clippers, now the Clippers run the second night of it back to back and sometimes you're sluggish, but the Clippers start out the game. They were playing the 76ers. and they start out the game when they fall down 16 to 2. Okay, the Clippers were D-O-A in that game. And the coaches on both sides knew all that stuff, okay?

So it's sort of this strange situation. And that actually during the game it got reported. Chris Mannix from Yahoo reported it. And then it was a couple jobs ago. He's back at SI now, just to give Mannix's proper. I apologize. The vertical was a one. A vertical was a while ago.

Manix has like eight jobs. Wendy doesn't like him because he has many jobs. It's easy to get him confused. Wendy doesn't like him because he's in competition for the best hair in the business. Go on. Anyway, I have filibustering here. So the Clippers, when they sign that contract pontems, knowing Hardens history and knowing that he doesn't like to have contract uncertainty, while they were protecting themselves on a long-term contract

and protecting themselves if Hardin got hurt or whatever. They had to know that they were least leaving a door somewhat open for Hardin to pressure them during the season. And that's what happened. And the difference here was I think they liked the exit route of their options. Again, Hardin is only going to say yes to so many places. Right. Some places are going to want to, you know, deal with him. I think they, despite Garland having injury issues last couple of years, I think they liked the exit route option here.

Yeah, I mean, listen, when I first heard about this trade yesterday, I was surprised to hear it because it wasn't out of left field thing that we weren't anticipating. But I wasn't surprised that there was a contractual dispute with James Hard and a team, right? So this going sideways with the clippers is not, to your point, Brian. From the moment they signed that contract last summer, you had to wonder, would he make it through the two years, how would it go, whether at some point B.A., James Hardin is unhappy with his contract. I live through this in Philly.

Tim lived through it in Houston. I mean, Houston wasn't the contract who was just the team around him, and same in Brooklyn, but then yes. I mean, he is a basketball mercenary businessman. That's what he is. Correct. So, you know, again, I get why the Cavs did it. I'm skeptical on how it's going to work,

but they have to get better this year. They have to try to improve this year. Trading, getting Keon Ellis, getting James Harden. think they're better than they were a week ago. We'll see if they can get even better by Thursday afternoon. And I don't love the trade for the Clippers. I've got real concerns about Darius Garland's health going forward, but if he can get this tow situation right and he can get back to playing the way he was last year,

when you could argue he was even more impactful during the regular season than Donovan Mitchell was, for as great as Donovan Mitchell was, the numbers, Darius Garland, when he was on the court, their offense was absolutely insane. last year. And he's got a change, like he's a very talented scoring guard. Like Ty Lou is familiar with him, obviously. You know, it's an interesting bet for them to get a younger piece to try to grow with going forward.

But I think the big winners out of this to me were the Oklahoma City Thunder who, you know, the Clippers were flying along, flying up to standings. They're now 17 and 5 in their last 22 games. man, you know, Steph's got a knee issue. Portland's struggling with health. Like, Clippers got a good chance to make the playoffs. I don't think the quippers are better after making this trade this year.

And I think it increases the chances of the thunder getting a pick back in the lottery that I wasn't sure they were going to get. And they also got a chance to get another lottery pick after today. The teams at the, the teams at the top of the tankathon are losing so much. Oh, it won't be. No, it won't be hard.

They're going to end up with a pick in the top five out of the record part. But I agree. In the playoffs, I think there's a chance that the biggest winner of this trade ends up being the Oklahoma City Thunder. And look, when there was six and 21, there was the widespread fear around the league. Oh, my God, the Thunder are going to get delivered a top five pick. That's not obviously the fear.

But it did look like the Clippers were destined to be a playoff team this year. of the teams in the play-in picture, the Clippers had been playing the best basketball. For the rest of this season, Darius Garland is a, you know, it's a massive uncertainty. Like, when is he going to get healthy? How healthy is he going to be?

You know, how's he going to fit in on the fly? And I agree with bond temps, as much as that pains me to say, I think this very likely means that OKC will get a late lottery pick. And they might get a second, one. Kevin Pelton. I was trying to do a nice segue for you to do our commercial break there, pal.

I know, but what you don't know is Ramona Shelburne just published an interview with James Hardin, should be somewhat out there by the time this podcast is up. But I want to read some of the things that he said. Okay. He denied making a trade request. We can play semantics on that one. Okay. Sure.

Okay. In life, not just basketball, when things don't work out, there are ways to end things in relationships without having to crack each other. It's hard and said. Okay, maybe we don't just see a future with each other. Maybe we outgrew each other, whatever the case may be. And that's why I can respect Steve L. Lawrence Frank and T. Liu, T. Lu, T. Lu, T. Liu, because they didn't put me in a weird position as much as everybody tried to make it like that. I like James. He's a friend of the pod. He's been on the pod.

I mean, there was. I don't want, I didn't want it to feel like I was holding the clippers up in their future. I wanted them to have a chance to rebuild and get some draft capital. I mean, they got a second up thing. This is quite the, this is quite the hearing. James, as I said, James Hardin is a basketball mercenary. It's, and a businessman. It's fine.

I don't think this is. They got to L.A. doing the exact same thing out of Philadelphia and having it be a complete. Yeah, well, that, they cracked each other. They was cracking each other. Well, he cracked Brooklyn pretty good, too. Now, you know, Houston felt somewhat, you know, Houston was very disappointed. when he asked out, when he forced his way out. But over the long term, because of the path that Houston took,

the Rockets ended up benefiting from that trade long term, given that the Hardin error was like they weren't going to win anything with, you know, yes. It had come and gone. And by the way, the Sixers also made out decently in the trade that they made for James Hardin, in terms of both coming in, getting rid of Ben Simmons and going out, getting the draft capital they got coming back, They got an unprotected pick in 28, and they got top three protected swap in 29.

Those don't look too bad. The team that really got screwed by acquiring James Harden was the Brooklyn Nets because of what they gave up with all the picks and then what they took back when they traded. Well, those, that three, some Durant, Kyrie, and Hardin, never really having a fair shake of it was a real gigantic letdown that the nets are still digging out of it. One of the biggest what-ifs in NBA history. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay. We had another trade that this one was also surprising. There was some belief that Jared Jackson would be available,

despite having four years and $200 million left on his contract after this season with the Grizzlies. The Grizzlies making their intentions with their roster relatively clear when they traded Desmond Bain back at the draft, put John Moran on the block, and began taking calls for Jaron Jackson. There was a belief that Jaron might go after Jop, but they went ahead and made the deal first. And Utah, which has been hoarding picks and saving up cap space

and doing a lot of losing, saw an opportunity, and they went in on it. So they give three first round picks, and the rest of it was young players, but mostly it was just trade filler. But basically, you know, who knows? Maybe Taylor Hendricks finds new life in Memphis. Walter Clayton, Jr., you know, that's an interesting pick-up for the Grizzlies. But, yeah, this was about picks, picks, picks, and this is about pre-agency for the Jazz who came in in stealth mode. And, you know, everyone's asking, how the Jazz sells is, or are they selling or they sell?

Not a single person. I think asked, are the Jazz going to be buyers at the deadline? But they came in, and this obviously is a move that is about, you're not getting free agents in Utah. here's a chance to acquire a big-time talent who's on a long-term deal that they feel like fits with their core moving forward. And not only that, when you mentioned pre-agency, they had a ton of cap space this summer. And I think the important thing to note here

is the improvement in the emergence of Keonti George as a real core piece going forward. But he's definitely in the running for most approved player this year. He's taking a big leap. and because of the growth he has shown this year, the one guy this summer who people were linking Utah to early on was Austin Reeves. So they in theory could have gone in and given a max offer to

and said, hey, come run our team, be our star ball handler and have as much usage as you want. But when Keonti George took off the way he did, it made it a lot less reasonable to make that kind of bet on Austin Reeves. So in a world where you have to spend the money if you have it, like you've got to get to the salary floor, you can't just have space. The Jazz only had limited options to really go with.

And that's why to me, there are not many teams I would have felt great about trading for Jaron Jackson Jr. With this contract going forward at $50 million a year, the next four years for some of the deficiencies he has in his game. But I really like the fit in Utah. And I really think this is about as good of a fit as you were going to find because they both have the salary

cap flexibility to take on his money. Playing next to Walker Kessler, he needs to be a power forward. You can play next to Lorry Marketing in sometimes. He can play next to Walker Kessler a lot. I love that fit. Will Hardy having those guys being able to be creative with them doing different things with him and Larry Marketing with the ball is going to be fun to watch. And in the Western Conference where we talk about Oklahoma City and you talk about

San Antonio and you talk about Houston, the teams you have to beat are all big. Like getting size to try to compete in the West. is critical. So I think the fit makes a lot of sense, and it's going to be a really long couple of months to see if they can keep this top pay protected pick, which is not going to be easy. Jazz won.

Why is saying that? As a quick... The Jazz won tonight. Jazz are in sixth place in the lottery odds right now. Okay. Hold on. You say the Jazz won. The Jazz beat the Fort Wayne Fire Ants,

whatever they have to be a lot more of those games. Yes. The Milwaukee box beat half the Bulls today. They're not going to win many games. I think it's the Noblesville. Boom, actually. No, but real talk here. Real talk, okay?

As we sit here right now, Utah has 16 wins. Okay? That is sixth. Eighth or ninth or lower, they lose the pick. Okay. So also with six, okay, so they have a three game lead on seventh. But that's Dallas.

How many more, Dallas has 19 ones? How many more games does Dallas win in McMahon? Not a lot. then Milwaukee. I don't know if Yonis can play again if we don't trade them. How many games is Milwaukee winning? If Yonis plays a second this season, that's an idiotic decision. If he plays a second for the Bucks, it's an idiotic decision.

They ain't won a very many more games. Yonis is threatening to come back to try to get him to do it. Of course. You know, I shouldn't say he's threatening. That'll be aggregated. Yonis wants to come back, which he wants the Bucks to know. The bottom line is it's just going to, I'm not. And the Grizzles are full speed of head.

Hold on. Grizzlies, 19 wins. That's a tank. Yeah, they're free-falling. So the three teams directly behind Utah ain't trying to win. I'm just telling you, I will be surprised if Utah doesn't keep this pick. And I just... Okay, I agree.

So here's my question. Rest assured, tank note is still in full effect for the rest of this season. Okay. Okay. And after that, it's done. Cool. How are they going to... So they had Lowry Markin and missed seven games with the flu recently.

How are we going to have Jared Jackson and Lowry Markin and miss all these games? I don't know, Jared. It's yet to have his physical. Maybe, I don't know. Listen, Trey Young showed up with six injuries in Washington, so who knows what's going to happen in Utah. But, I mean, look, this is...

Well, that's true. Hey, listen, the league is looking at Trey Young, you know, he was playing games. He got traded and then, you know... I mean, look, I'm not even mad. Like, I'm not even like saying they shouldn't do it. I'm just saying... Yeah, listen.

Look, clearly there's going to have to be some creative license used here, but just, I'm just telling you. We're all aware of what the jazz are going to try to do. I'm just sitting here telling you it's going to be hard. I'm sure they're going to try, but it's going to be hard. The team's behind them eight win and

any more games. Yes, right. All right. So, listen, we all agree on that. I'll bet on them keeping that pick, but we'll see. The fit moving forward to me is fascinating. The jazz clearly feel strongly about their core now. And their core,

Keante George, Larry Marketing, Jaron Jackson, Jr. You can include Ace Bailey in that. And they are including Walker Kessler. They're including Walker Kessler as part of that core. I'm just telling you, the Walker Kessler restricted free agency is not going to be a fun,

cozy experience. You know, they want to keep Walker Kessler. They have turned down picks, you know, or offers rather, for, you know, nice draft compensation over the last year or so for him. They see him as part of their core moving forward. They have a number in mind for Walker Kessler, and Walker and his representation have a much larger number in mind. He will be a restricted free agency, but it will be very interesting to see if Walker can get the kind of offer that's going to put the jam. as to the test when they have now a front court that, you know,

Marking and and Jared Jackson Jr. are going to be making roughly 95 million a year combined moving forward. And look, Chicago's going to need a big. The Lakers need a big. You know, Washington needs a big. You know, I don't think Charlotte does. Teams with cap space. Teams with cap space.

Right. I don't think Charlotte does. I think Charlotte's found a nice little tag. team taming them, but, you know, we'll see, I don't know if I'm not front. Yeah, moose and Cogbrenner, but, you know, theoretically they could be. And it just takes one. So, again, the jazz very firmly will tell you that Walker Kessler's part of their core moving forward. I'm just going to warn that we need to see how the summer plays out before we're certain that. It's like the path to keep their pick is going to be a little fraught. The path to

keeping Walker might be a little fraught, but I think there's a good chance to keep the pick. And I think there's a good chance to keep Walker. I know they want to. And, you know, it's restricted for agency for a reason. Like, right. I expect he'll be on the team. Now, if they have him play next to Jared and Jackson, Jr., literally the worst defense statistically in NBA history now will have two of the top, I don't know, five, six rim protectors in the league.

It's a pretty good way to clean up your defense of issues. And when Markanin started playing the three in Cleveland, it helped turn his career around. Yeah. And by the way, Jaron Jackson Jr. has some real perimeter elements to his offensive. Like the offense and fit between those two is not going to be an issue. And Will Hardy is one of the most creative offensive coaches in the league. Obviously, he's a friend of the pod too. But like he's going to, I'm excited for him to mix and match with Jaron and Lowry.

and I mean, you can have those guys It's an identity Like you said before It's an identity that they're got to go But their ceiling is probably going to be determined by where this pick falls Because if they can get in the top three Like now you've got something

That you can really have If they get Darren Peterson And they can put Darren Peterson With Guillaute George In the back court with these other guys Like There is no ceiling If it clicks right

Like that could be an incredible team. But even if they end up with the fifth pick or the sixth pick or the seventh pick and they get, you know, the Fleming's kid from Houston or they get McKell Brown from Louisville or they get, you know, Cameron Boozer, or whoever they get. Like, if they add another high level piece

to what they've got now, like, they're going to be awfully fun for a long time. And that's the other thing. Like, Jaron's going to, Jaron's 26, Walker's in his early 20s. County George is young. Obviously, Ace Bailey is still a kid. Larry's 20.

or 29. This is a group that's got several years of runway in it. It's not like this, they made all the, they traded these picks and they're all in. And by the way, there's still plus two or three picks going forward because they had a lot of picks.

And frankly, well, back to last year, just real quick, the Phoenix Suns made this, in my opinion, ridiculous trade to get three bad picks to give up one future unprotected pick.

Getting that future unprotected pick is why this trade happened because they had that 231 Unprotected Sun's pick and the Jazz could go to the Grizzlies and give them two mediocre picks, I would say, next year's draft, but they could give them one really premium future pick, and that was enough

to get Sharon Jackson to Salt Lake City. Yeah, and in saying that, listen, they gave up, this is a pretty significant pick compensation, you know, in a league where you know, like Anthony Davis, if the Maverston get a pick for Anthony Davis, that would be

you know, probably consider good business if it's expiring as an apic, just as an example there. And, you know, Justin Zannick said it on the record last year. When they made that deal to get that Phoenix pick, he said that was the most valuable pick that was moved in the trade market before last year's deadline. Now, the Jazz hoped that the pick they gave up of their own next year is not a lottery pick. You know, they hope that they are a playoff team next year. The Lakers pick is unlikely to be a lottery pick, and it's also not supposed to be a great draft, not that any of us know anything other than what people tell us on the draft. But, you know, the pick they gave up, the 231 Sons pick is perceived to be a pretty juicy pick, having said that, in defense of the Sons. When Memphis made their last mega pick trade, when they got Desmond Bain, they thought the sweetest asset they got in that deal was the Sun's pick.

year and turns out with all the swaps and sets, they're probably not even going to get that pick anyway. Yeah. And we'll see what Memphis gets with, you know, Memphis can do the same thing. Memphis now is 12 first in the next seven years. Maybe they can collect, you know, bundle them together and trade up. Well, that could happen. And I bet you they've got more soon because they got picks in this. They got basically salary filler, but they got a $28.8 million trade exception. So the Memphis grists are. are wide open for businesses facilitators. Bulls have made several. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Trades in the last few days made two of them on Tuesday. One was a three-team trade with Minnesota and Detroit.

Starting with the Pistons there, the Pistons pick up Kevin Hurtor to add some shooting to their team. That is something that they have needed to do. Herder or role player, you know, they obviously, could still do something bigger. They still could do something bigger after the season, but that was Detroit addressing what they felt was in need. And also giving up on first-round draft pick from a couple of years ago,

Jaden Ivy, he gets sent to Chicago. So the last year of his contract will be a restricted free agent. This also is pre-agency, as the man mentioned earlier. This is a move that Chicago did recently with Josh Giddy, where they traded for a player knowing that they would likely invest in him long-term. term. So we'll see what happens there. And then Minnesota got off of Mike Conley in the deal and did a swap with Detroit. So Detroit not only gets Kevin Herder in the deal, Detroit's likely to have the 29th or 30th pick in this upcoming draft. They swapped their pick with Minnesota. Who knows where Minnesota will be.

Maybe they're 20, maybe they're 24, maybe they're 18. I don't know. But Detroit's going to move up. And so decent piece of business for Detroit, although they're moving off of Ivy, of course, they had already decided that would be extended them last fall. So to me, this is really about Chicago invest in sort of making us a pick about their future with guards, of their guards, because they have Kobe White and Io Dusamu Dumu Bontemps, and both of those guys are free after the season and going to Sumo. I know I've lost up. I go first name only in some of these cases. Go on. Anyway, it seems like they've made a decision that they want to invest in Ivy, and it leaves those two guys. maybe by the time this pod comes out,

one or two, both of them will be moved off of. But Chicago, they also made another trade with Boston, which we'll talk about in a minute. But I want to get your feelings on this, Bontops. Well, I think we kind of need to put them together because in the other deal, they swapped Anthony Simons to, they got Anthony Simons from the Celtics,

sent out Nick Vucevic. They swapped second round picks. They got probably the Pelican second round pick in next year's draft, which is a good second. Well, you've sort of done your classic warp speed I like to slow down. I mean, if you want to walk through it, then I think we need to talk about them together for a reason.

Okay. So. I like when you guys fight. All right. Okay. So they also traded for Anthony Simon. Simon's is having a very good last six weeks with the Celtics. But the Celtics had been looking for size for a while.

They get Nikola Wukovic, both of those guys were in the last year of their contracts. The Celtics saved significant. amount of luxury tax dollars in that trade. So they tossed in a second round pick that is likely to be the King's second round pick and swapped it with the Bulls. I'm sorry, not the Kings, the Pelicans. Pelicans. That is like a juicy second rounder. Pick 31 through 34-ish. And so that is a nice pickup for Chicago. Chicago is not known for getting picks in trades. And they've actually gotten a couple of picks this week. And the trade that they picked. up Dario Sarachin, who they moved on to Detroit as part of this deal.

So they picked up three second round picks in this last week, and one of them is a pretty good one. Simon's on the last year of his contract. So they now have four guards that they've got four guards that are all free agents, because Simons and Ivy, they're not keeping all four of them. So the question is, which are they trading? In theory, Bon Temps, they could retrade Simon. Simons is a player who could go elsewhere. That's a player who you could get moved again. If the Bulls keep them, they would have to consider whether they want to pay him as well as Ivy.

Yeah, and I would say in some total, we've got another, whatever, day and a half until the trade deadline has passed. But as we sit here right now, I don't really know what the Bull's plan is. Like, they have all this expiring money, and they've maneuvered it around some. And yes, they've gotten some seconds, which is a nice change from not getting any picks as they typically have in the past. But like, what is the vision for the roster? Like, they have Josh Giddy, who they signed last summer, he's clearly going to be their point guard going forward. And they've got modest Bezellis on the wing, their first round pick in last year's draft. Clearly, he's a guy they're invested in as a core piece going forward.

But you mentioned they made this Jaden Ivy trade. He's, you know, obviously had a ton of injury issues and has been up and down. We'll see what his contractual situation is going to be. You know, they have Kobe White and I'll assume two guys that they could have traded the last couple of years and gotten, I think, pretty significant returns for as cheap quality guards on low-cost contracts that are now on the verge of expiring when they're going to get raises. and if they trade them this week, I don't think they're going to get massive return for either of those guys. If they don't trade them this week,

then you're in a situation where, okay, now you have Ivy on your books as an RFA and you have those two guys as unrestricted free agents. Are you keeping all of them? Or you're some of those guys walking as free agents this summer? And getting a second round pick for Vosovic is fine, but they don't really have any answers in the front court either. So they have a ton of cap space this summer,

but it's just kind of hard to see what direction they're going in. And also, if they don't trade for a big now, we talked about all these other teams that are going to start losing. You've been saying every road for the Bulls gets back to 39 and 43. Once again, Bontem doesn't sell correctly. All roads lead to 39. He's just got no feel for, he's got no rhythm. He's got no swag.

I don't have swag either. If they don't get a little, If they don't get... Those fingers will fire. You got a swag about you. If they don't get some sort of big in back on the roster to replace Nick Vucevich, they're going to seemingly try to start losing now when they're already won too many games to even tank, really. When is the best time...

There's zero chance of the Bulls tanking. I agree. I just don't... They are lost into 39, baby. What you're saying? This is not an aspiration joke. When's the best time to plant a tree? Last year.

Well, when's the best time to commit to really rebuilding? In the Bulls case, two years ago, but last year. But when's the second best time now? So maybe this is the Bulls finally realizing we are stuck in purgatory. It is a bad place to be. We're tired of being in purgatory. Let's commit to a real youth movement rebuild. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say maybe they're doing something logical here.

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Like, it depends on what they pay Jade and Ivy. if they keep Simons, if they pay him. That's, I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for the next day and a half and see where they're at after the trade deadline. Maybe this will look a lot different.

Like to your point, Brian, if they go out and use Simons and use some of these other expirings to take back some money to take in assets, if they end up with a couple first out of deal, like if they do stuff like that, like, okay, then you could look at it and say, right, they're like pointed in a direction. but if they just kind of cycle through expiring contract for expiring contract and end up with a couple seconds and a roster with nine guards on it, I just won't really know.

I don't really know if we'll have a good sense of what the plan is then. And the other thing in the train with Boston, they did take back, how much more million is it? It's a fair. Six. Which said the Celtics slashed a ton. The Celtics, Bobby had the graphic.

They've gone from like, including luxury tax, like a $540 million payroll, like $2.10 in a matter of however many months. And still in third place. And they're still in third place. And Tatum obviously hasn't played a second. We'll see if he does return this year. If he does return this year, like, hey, man, who knows?

It was interesting. Peyton Pritchard came off the bench for the first time all season. And scored like 29. Yeah, scored 26. He played 34, 35 minutes off the bench, had 26 and seven cyst. Joe Mazzolo was asked, you know, hey, is that like going to be his role moving forward? And he didn't commit to that.

But, you know, it's interesting. They lose Simon's punch off the bench and brought Peyton Pritchard, you know, in that six-man role for the first time all season long. There's a good six, man. You know, the other interesting thing, obviously, Adam Vooch is like, you know, gives you a stretch five. Second best Luca in the league, Luca Garza. Tell you what, man, he was on tonight. Well, he had six threes.

Four threes. They're kind of having... Six to be it from the four, four, four, from three. Sorry, six to six, six, he paid from the floor. They're kind of moving Vucevic into the role that, you know, he's not the defender, Al Horford is, but kind of the Al Horford role there, where he's a stretch big man, whether he starts or he's going to, you know, play with limited minutes. I would guess he's coming off the bench. It is a good fit for the way the Celtics have demonstrated to, play.

And it's, you know, one thing I will say about the Celtics, I mean, not one thing. You can say a lot of things. Brad Stevens' front office has done a pretty good job in pro personnel in recent years, bringing in guys from other teams. Yeah. That fit on their roster. Whether it's Drew Holiday, Chris Apps Porzingis, Al-Hawford, Derek White, Garza, who has been doing great. Mimi Keda. Like, they have a history of identifying guys and bringing them in.

So, you know, you know, Simons has been good, but, like, Brad Stevens has earned the belief instead of a move like this. And it's a low-stakes move. They save money and Vucevic's, you know, expiring contract. And Simon was acquired to be traded. Like, you know, the second they traded. True, but he was helping them win. Sure. I mean, I don't, that was something.

The second they turned him into. shopping them. Yeah, and that's why they turned them into a player who can still help them win some more games. And I do think Kevin Herder's an upgrade on Jaden Ivy, so I like that for Detroit. Detroit also swapped picks in the first round this year with the Minnesota Timberwolves to move up a bunch of spots because, no, hold on, I'm just setting it up. I got a release from the Timberwolves about this three-team. Let's talk about the Timberwolves. Bontemps, you have their release that they put out at the end of the day after the trade call became official. That's right.

So a three-team trade with the Bulls and Pistons. McMahon, the headline on this release is an all-timer. Okay. Headline. Timberwolves acquire cash considerations. I like it. That's the headline. Minnesota Timberwol has traded out Mike Connolly,

traded a first-round pick swap that's going to drop in about 10 spots in the draft to save a boatload of money. That is not something you typically see for a team that's coming off back. to back conference finals appearances. And I'm awfully curious to see if the Minnesota Timberwolves get better between now and Thursday afternoon because if all they do is either get out of luxury tax or save a bunch of money, it's an interesting message you're sending to your team and to your superstar guard. Well, and we do know that Tim Connolly swings big.

And he's trying to swing big right now. You know, this definitely gives him more flexibility. It does? Well, they just made their draft pick 10 picks worse to save the owners a ton of money. I don't really see what it did otherwise. Okay, I've been around a little bit, and one of the things I've learned is be careful grading a team's trade deadline season on Tuesday. That's what I'm saying. So we'll wait.

This could be the first domino to a series of things if they're going to make a big splash. They are out there trying to acquire assets that they can offer to Milwaukee. You know, obviously we don't know everything that's going on with all the calls. We work all day long on getting information that people don't want us to have. You know, you hear about the Knicks being in the Yonis game. I've heard, I have personally heard not one. thing about the Knicks trying to go out and get other assets to then offer to the Bucks. The Knicks don't have a young player, a high-quality young player, or any draft-picks

to offer. So to make an offer, they'd have to go out and improve it. I've heard nothing on the Knicks. By the way, what do the Minnesota Timberwolves have to trade for Janus? Well, but that's a fair point. But at least you got there hear them trying. Well, and look, it's, it will, I don't know, never say never. I can't imagine it being a two-team deal.

But if you throw in Jane McDaniels and you, you know, you throw in, you know, Bear Jay, you know, hands. You're going to say a lot of ah-as because they're not there. But forget about that. The point is Minnesota is out there trying. Like, we know, we hear about what Minnesota is trying to do. I don't think they're going to get it done, but they are trying. Well, Minnesota had better tried to get some players.

and not end up at the trade deadline having just saved the owners a lot of money, which is why I said, let's see what happens over the next day and a half. Well, they have spent a lot of money. If the Minnesota Timberwell's trade deadline is they sacrificed an asset or assets to save a ton of money and not make the team better when they don't have draft capital going forward, that is a very interesting message to send. Well, that's the way that's... They have spent a lot of money in luxury tax the last couple of years.

It's not like they have not spent, but it's a tough look. Listen, if that's the way it ends up, if this is just a save the owners who had to like search through couch cushions to find enough change to actually purchase the team, if it's about saving them money and that's what this trade deadline's about, you're right. That is a really bad look. That's going to be a really hard thing, I would imagine, to explain to Anthony Edwards. Frankly, it's going to be a really hard thing, I would think, to explain to. Chris Finch, I think it would be a really hard thing for Tim Connelly, the guy making all the moves to swallow, you know, that that would. And look, maybe they won't come up with Yonis, or they will come up with something else and they will get a lot better. I'm not ruling it out. This is a Thursday.

This is a post-trade deadline conversation. I just don't want to go there yet. Right. But maybe we'll be talking about this on Thursday. It's a fascinating trade to see a team that's made back-to-back conference finals being a three-team trade. and you have to look at the trade three times to make sure you're not missing that they're not getting something in the trade. Well, and the unfortunate thing here is, you know, Mike Connly's, this might be it for him. Like, this might be his final season. And he's just no longer physically capable of helping a contender.

And so, you know, it's not like they dumped the salary of a guy who is still, like, he's not the Mike Connolly even of last year. He's not just not close to that. being that kind of player. But again, to my point, though, he's on an expiring contract. If they were willing to offer a pick swap, you don't think they could have gotten somebody that could help him?

Well, maybe they couldn't. And listen. Yeah, they gave up a draft asset tonight to save money. Yeah. It's a penny-pinching move. Is it a penny-pinching move that sets up a bigger splash?

Then that's one thing. Is it a penny-pinching move? Because you're pinches and pennies, that's another thing. Yeah. I mean, if they end up better by Thursday night, then that's all good. All right. So this is about to be my 23rd trade deadline.

I don't know how many for you, McMahon, somewhere up there. I can't count that I. 15. All right. Well, we will all be a part of ESPN's trade deadline coverage, which has a four-hour show on ESPN and ESPN2 on Thursday. Talking about NBA today. And it's a trade deadline special. It's kind of like NBA today.

But so we'll soldier through it and then we'll see you guys afterwards. Soldier through it. Oh, it's a tough way to make a living. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much to Devon and Jackson. And I think Luis is joining us for the first time as producing the pod tonight. Thank you to McMahon.

Thank you to Buntimps. Thank you for watching. of the Hoop Collective. Thank you for taking in all of our trade deadline coverage. We look forward to talking to you when it's all over. Adios amigos.