Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Record Breaking Sale For Celtics, Ranking The 11 Best Rebuilding Teams, East Seeding Battles

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk the significance of the Celtics’ largest team sale in North American sports history and what this means for Boston going forward. Then, the guys discuss the Clippers streaking at the right time, some potential defensive issues for the Cavs, the current Defensive Player of the Year, some interesting lineup decisions for the Thunder and playoff seeding battles in the Eastern Conference. Plus, we rank the 11 best and worst rebuilding scenarios for teams across the NBA. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday morning, morning, joining us from upstate New York in a beautiful, rustic location, Timbontem.

Hello, everybody. Joining us from Los Angeles, California, early in the day out there. He's violating typical McMahon hours. The author, Ban McMahon. Howdy, Parks. Published date is on Tuesday. Heap books, audio books already available. The Wonderboy, Luca Donchich, and the Curvy.

of greatness. I appreciate you going out of your way to plug that, Wendy. I saw Luca Donchich and it's certainly a flash of greatness last night. First quarter was, oh. You were watching the Wonder Boy take apart the remains of the Denver Nuggets. Murray and Yokets were out and Luke had 21 points in the first quarter. Yeah, it turns out the nuggets. The Nuggets can be beat when Joker and Murray sit out. And we might need to touch on Bontemps versus Malone in a little bit, but we've got a bigger story to get to right. Whatever. Oh, I want to get to it. I want to get to it. All right.

Anyway. He likes the traffic and not facts. The facts is that he doesn't know who you are. That's what I heard on Denver Radio. Woo! Jab, jab. We have major news in the NBA. And I'm just going to say, before we even talk about this, between when we're recording

this and when you might be listening or watching to it, there may be more information. And the key is going to be in the details here. And the details may not be immediately known. However, the Boston Celtics have agreed to sell in principle to a group led by private equity, successful private equity gentleman named Bill Chisholm. And we don't know a lot about him other than he's from Massachusetts and a longtime Celtics fan. And my guess has been trying to put together this consortium for a while. Bontz, you wrote the news story about it. Shams reported a $6.1 billion evaluation.

Everybody's going to focus on the $6 billion and they should. It's the highest sale for an NBA team by 50%. The previous high was the Sons. The valuations for Sportico and Forbes had the Celtics in the mid-fives. There was a understanding this was going to break the record, and a lot is focused on that price, but the details are going to be very important for who's making the decisions going for with the Celtics,

and particularly because of where the Celtics are from a financial standpoint, which is typically boring for a podcast we talked about the NBA, but it's important right now. Yeah, I mean, it's important when a team is about to be a $500 million team and the most expensive team in the history of the NBA, which is where the Celtics are headed this summer if they don't remove anybody from the roster. And that's, you know, before figuring out what they're going to do with Al Horford, who's obviously still an important piece of the team.

I mean, there's definitely a lot of interesting layers to this. Obviously, the fact that they are the most expensive team in North Carolina. North American sports history passing the commanders purchased by what Josh Harris, the owner of the Sixers, 18 months ago is a pretty interesting fact and definitely not one I was expecting to happen. I thought this team was going to go for five or higher. I didn't think they were going to get all the way to $6 billion. That was certainly what the Celtics and I think the NBA had been hoping for over the past eight or 10 months since the team announced right after the finals that they were going to be up for sale. And I think it's got a very, it's got a really, it's going to have

have potentially a very big impact on the possibility of expansion. This was one thing that anybody that you talked to involved in the expansion process or thinking about the expansion process all said that nothing was going to happen with that process until there was clarity on this Celtic sale and the higher the number came in on this sale, the greater the likelihood of that process moving along and there being at least one, if not likely two teams added to the league at some point in the future. So it's certainly a big statement from that standpoint that there is, I think, a higher likelihood of expansion now than there was a couple of hours ago. And then there's also, like you said, we don't, there isn't a lot known about Bill Chisholm or the situation he's

walking into with the team. Steve Pagliuka, who was a co-owner of the Celtics along with with Grusbeck and was trying hard to buy the team, put out a statement, which I think is pretty interesting. I just want to read part of it because I do think it underscores part of what we're talking about here. Quote, we made a fully guaranteed and financed offer at a record price befitting the best sports fan in the world and with all the capital coming from individuals who are fully committed to winning on and off the court. We had no debt or private equity money that would potentially hamstring our ability to compete in the future. We felt it was the best offer for the Celtics. It is a bit of true fans deeply connected to Boston's community. We've been sadded and to find out

that we have not been selected in the process. So I think the way that is worded says a variety of things. And it's going to be interesting over time, as you said, Brian, to see exactly what the ownership structure of this team is going forward because they're going to have some massive financial decisions to make just in the next six months, let alone beyond that. And it remains to be seen how willing and able they'll be to pay those kind of monies, to pay that kind of money to keep this team together. Yeah. So McMahon, you remember when The Mavericks sold. They sold for, I think, $3.5 billion, less than the Suns, which to this day remains a fascinating

development because I think Dallas is a bigger and better market than Phoenix. And no one seems to talk about why Cuban gave him a discount. And maybe we'll see in time, but I just don't get it. But forget about that. You remember what Mark Cuban said when the team was sold. You reported it. Yeah. He'll be in charge of basketball operations.

He said it on background to me and a bunch of other people. and then he said it publicly. But the thing he said to me right after the sale was he would be in charge of basketball forevermore. Forever more. Right. I could remember the terms that he, the actual verbiage, but I remember it was something like in perpetuity or something like that.

And then he held a, it wasn't a press conference. It was after one of Cubans pregame three-point shooting sessions when he kind of held court with the media and he went on and on about having control basketball operations. And, you know, they're about real estate. about basketball. It's why it's a perfect fit. And obviously, I still don't, I don't know if Cuban was flat lying or if he was trying to speak something into existence. But it was not ever part of the discussions. It was not part of the contract. And it was not reality, as we now know, uh, certainly beyond a shadow of a doubt. Now, Ramona just put out a, uh, I guess what Grusbeck

says in a statement is from a Ramona tweet. The new Boston Celtics owner William Chisholm has, quote, asked me to run the team as CEO and governor of for the first three years and stay on as his partner, and I am glad to do so. From experience, I would say, we need to hear that from the guy who just put up $6 billion. You also have to hear it from Olympic Tower in New York City because I don't know what is in the agreement. The agreement is probably brand new. I don't know how many different partners are in, but this is something I do know. In the NBA, regardless of what the press conference looks like, regardless of what the press release looks like, regardless of what the outgoing owner says, regardless of what the incoming new summer, incoming owner says, there is one thing that I can absolutely with 100% certainty guarantee. In the NBA, there are 30 teams.

There are 30 governors. Yep. One, one governor. Not six, not two guys with their hands around each other's shoulders, not a bunch of guys smiling, not grandma. Not my nephew. Billionaires don't share well. One governor. At a time, at least.

We have some teams that have had sort of a rotating governor agreement. And that governor is the one who makes the decisions, period. And there are some major decisions to be made as, you know, Bontem's reference with the payroll. And like, what's one of the things that all these other front offices around the league are trying to figure out, who are the Celtics going to move to give themselves? some financial relief. You know, is it Drew Holiday? Could it be Jalen Brown?

You know, whatever. Right. And I'm not even sure, you know, Bontemps, I'm not even sure that Steve Pat, you know, and it's interesting that, you know, Pagliuka and Whit Gruzbach sit next to each other at virtually every Celticam. They have been, you know, hand-in-hand partners for decades. I'll be interested to see Bontemsa the next time you're in Boston about whether they're sitting together again.

It's going to be quite a while until I'm back in Boston again, so we'll see at that point. Well, I'll watch on TV. But part of the thing that Pags was referring to in that statement is that in the reporting today, it's been said that Sixth Street, which is a massive investment firm, is putting up at least a billion, more than a billion dollars into this deal, which is what Bloomberg reported. So when he's when he's making comments and jabs in that statement about being fully financed by people committed to the Celtics, part of what he's referring to. is the makeup of the bid structure of the group that bought the team. This is not a sports business podcast, and I'm not going to try to say that I'm an authority on this, but I will just tell you that Sixth Street is a massive private equity operation. They do have a big operation.

It's also a place with a bunch of bars in Austin where I don't want my daughter going anywhere near, but go on. I believe there's a couple communities in America that have a Sixth Street. Oh, okay. Austin's is famous. I believe there's a skyscraper in Boston, a 6th Street on the side of it, but I think they're based in California. Anyway, 6th Street owns a bunch of pieces of a bunch of sports teams, including 20% of the San Antonio Spurs. And when it's over a billion dollars, my guess is... Assuming they have 20% of the Celtics.

I assume they have 20% of the Celtics. And the reason it's 20% is because that's the most that the NBA will allow a... private equity firm or a fund, what they call an institutional investor, someone who's not a person, you know, some group of money, 20% is all the MBA allows to invest. And one, you know, 20% of $6.1 billion is $1.2 billion. So maybe it's 18%, maybe it's whatever. But the key is, is that 6th Street is not investing in something to operate it at a massive loss, probably, you know, so I mean, you know, maybe I can have a losing season or so, but, you know, they're investing in it to hold it and eventually flip it. And you don't do that, you know,

you also don't, you know, profit by having to pay 20% of several hundred million dollars in in debt in a year. They also own 25%. I think they own a piece of FC Barcelona as well. I got 75 billion in assets under management. They own a lot of stuff. Right. So anyway, I don't know it's going to happen. I, you know, I do think that verbiage from Wick Grusbach is interesting because they've asked him to stay. When he, when he, hey, here's $6 billion. Will you please hold our hand and run the franchise? Yeah. But look, I mean, Bill Chisholm himself does not, I mean, very few people do, I mean, we're getting to the point where sales of teams are not going to be with one individual. They're just, they're just too expensive. Six billion dollars. This is,

Well, yeah. It's a lot of money. It's going to be fascinating to see how much money this guy actually has and how much he's willing to spend on the team and what the ramifications are going forward. It may not be only up to him. If there's 12 guys in a room that have come together, it depends on what their agreement is. Right. But again, like you said, this comes down to the person in charge. That's how the NBA does this.

So it's what is he? Because he's, whatever the group is, it's going to be on him, whatever it's good or bad. So, I mean, the thing people don't know about the Celtics is the current group that owns a team has a million people in it. With Grusbeck owns 2% of the team. So it's not, he's the front of a big group, but he's the one making decisions. So we'll see what the decisions are in that. And the other thing is, I do think this is a huge step forward towards expansion. The fact that this number came in this high, that is probably the single biggest deal of this whole thing. There's a reason that $6 billion number kept getting floated out there. That's what the NBA was

hoping this would go for. I think it's safe to say. And the fact that it set a record for the highest price for a franchise to be sold in North American sports history when the Celtics don't own their own arena, I think only underscores that there's plenty of interest in owning NBA teams. And I think it, I think it's much more likely now than it was when we woke up this morning that expansion happens in the somewhat near future. I agree with all that. But like you're buying the Celtics brand in this case, which is, you know, obviously a, you are, but it's not, it wasn't a clean, this wasn't a clean sale for a lot of reasons. Like, it was not clear they were going to get this kind of number. The fact they got this kind of number is only going to put

wind in the sales of the idea of getting an extra 12 or 13 or whatever billion for two more teams, which all goes back to the 30 existing owners. I agree. I believe there will be expansion. I just don't know what the timeline is. Right. You know, I- This didn't hurt the timeline. This didn't slow down the timeline. Put it that way. Or who's going east when it happens? Well,

but I do think the fact that it took the Celtics 10 months or whatever was nine months to reach this process. I'm not, you know. That's pretty normal. It's not. It's on an app. I mean, the sun sold like that. The clipper sold like that. I mean, you know, those are.

Those are. Boom. You know, like. That's not, that's not normally how it works. It's much more. It's much more common for it to take several months than it is for it to take five minutes. What I'm saying is that before the season started, Adam Silver was saying there would be some clarity on expansion before the end of the season. And there is no clarity on expansion.

And the season's about to end. Well, yes, they were waiting again, they were waiting to see when this process would end. It was always supposed to end in the first quarter of this year and it's still the first quarter of this year and it's been sold. Okay. That's all. First off, it hasn't been sold yet. Secondly, there was a belief in some circles who were hoping for expansion for the team to be in place by 27. And I just don't believe that's going to happen.

I like when you guys argue. So, but look, it doesn't matter. I agree with you in principle, sort of like this has been sold in principle. I agree with you in principle that the movement towards the expansion takes a major step now that this price has been. Yeah, we agree on all that. Okay. More hoop collective. podcast after this.

All right. Now let's get back to the court. McMahon, you've been on the West Coast. I want to talk a little bit about one of the hottest teams in the league that's really making a move right now, a game that you, a team that you saw earlier this week, where the Clippers. The Clippers went on a East Coast trip a couple of weeks ago. And when they left, they were in sixth place.

And then they came home and they played two games against the Lakers. I guess that was still, they were on the road. But they played two games against the Lakers in crypto. They lost both. And when they woke up the morning after that, they were in night. And they were watching the Warriors power up and the Lakers power up. And it's been a remarkable, they were really kind of in trouble. And Kauai was back, but not looking great.

I had even talked to some scouts that said he'd, you know, just his burst, which didn't look like he was there. He was having trouble getting open, you know, or, you know, getting free. And I really didn't know where the clippers were because they were such a positive story for so much of the year. And they really were defined by their energy and their defense. Well, they've won seven out of eight games, including the game you were at earlier this week,

where they put up 135, I think, or 137 or whatever it was on the Cavs. And they've won seven to the last eight games, and they are really in the thick of what is showing up to be a really intense Western Conference competition, which we knew it would be. It was last year. It will be again this year. you know, four spots, you know, five, six, seven, eight. You know, really, and the difference obviously between six and seven is huge.

But in these last eight games, we've seen James Hardin just looking spectacular. He's averaged 29 points in these games. And he really hasn't had a great year efficiency-wise based on his historic standards. But his efficiency in these games has been back to maybe not peak Hardin, but certainly great-harden. He's shot 45%. He's got to the line 11 times in this game. Kauai backed, you know, his scoring is down a little bit overall, but his shooting is so much better.

Yeah, not against Cavs Corner, it wasn't. I mean, he looked. As Kenny Atkinson said, that was vintage Kauai. Like, he was doing whatever he wanted, getting his spots, elevating over guys, knocking down shots. And that was a game Hardin didn't shoot the ball great, but Hardin has had a great year just running that offense. You know, Norm Powell has had a phenomenal year.

And he just came back. He just came back. Well, let me just go over some of these guys before I want to, I want, before you tell us what you saw when you were there. So Leonard in this, so he hasn't, he hasn't, you know, he does obviously take some back to backs off. Sure. But in this stretch, he shot 43% on threes and 50% from the field.

And as you said, what did he have, what do you have against the calf? 36. 33. 33. Yeah. It was just, I mean, he was. dominant. Yeah. And you can just, you can, when he's feeling good, you can just, you can just tell it in the way he, his demeanor. If you get, you know, it's just, instead of it sort of being distant, it's just more focused. I don't, I don't know. And you can see it in the way that he elevates. Yes, because he needs, he's such a killer from that mid range, but he needs to get his legs underneath him to do it. And then, so that night, so first off, Evitzi Azubach, this dude. Oh my. is crushing. I mean, so in this stretch, he's averaging 21 and 13, okay, on 64% shooting. And anchoring the defense.

My God. So that night, well, hold on. I'll wait to get to the calves that night. All right. Then, you know, they made this deal at the trade deadline that it wasn't really clear about this deal that they made or they traded Terrence man for Bogdan Bogdanovich. I mean, Bogdan's a friend of the pod. Hell, Norm Powell and James Hardner friends of the pod. The clippers are very pod-friendly. It's a very pod-friendly thing. Is Kauai? It's quiet. Come on. We haven't booked him yet. But there may be another clipper coming on soon.

I'm working on negotiations for another clipper. But anyway, Bogdan, you know, I have, I love Bogdan because he's such a great international player. And I've covered him all over the world. And he's so great when he plays for Serbia. He's just been plagued by injuries so recently in the NBA the last few years. And this year, frankly, he was having a bad year for the hawk. He was out with some injuries.

And then his shooting percentages, were just frankly crap. So they make this deal. The Hawks basically did it to get out of his contract in the future. Terrence man is younger. And he's been terrific for them.

He's shooting the ball great. He didn't miss the other night, literally. So, and in this stretch, he's shooting 55% from three. He's healthy. And like I said, Norm Powell, he hasn't put up, he's back now from the injuries.

He hasn't played great since then. I want you, what, I was going to say something. Evan Mobley is the, is he the front runner, Jackson for defensive player of the year? He's certainly in the conversation for it. I don't know if he's the frontrunner, but he's way out there.

I think getting wise he is. I'm saying this the morning after he had a 31 point game in Sacramento. Evan Mowgli's status for defensive player of the year, in my opinion, has taken some hits this week, including in the game you were at, where Evichia Zubach had 20 rebounds by himself, and the Cavs had 29 as a team. Yeah, he had 28 points, 20 rebounds, and out. absolutely just physically bullied the Cavs two bigs. Just dominated the game in the painting.

Mowgli is the favorite on the ESPN bet. And then while Hardin didn't have a great shooting night, one of the, you know, probably the most memorable highlight from that game was when Hardin got Mowgli out there on a switch on the perimeter and, you know, blew by him, got a little layup and then did the, you know, the scream celebration,

you know, that all, that's the painting, right? Scream where, you know, he was, He was impressed with himself and having fun with it. And Moby is a great defender, but, you know, I'm doing kind of the windy celebrity thing where I was doing TV this week. And Udana's Hazem is out of here doing TV. And Hazem was making great points about, like, teams will try to hunt Mowgli on switches, you know, making him switch on to star or goals.

Well, it happened last night. DeMard de Rose, again, Evan Moby had a 31-point game on Wednesday night. He had a very dominant stretch in the second half that helped the cat. rally in that game and they were behind and they've lost three in a row, but the Sacramento Kings ran plays to get Evan Mobley onto DeMarre de Rosen down the stretch, and DeRosan was scoring. Now, I don't know if, you know, the Cavs have a defensive scheme. You know, you shouldn't necessarily judge a 6'11 guy on coming out to a switch with a guard

or a wing. I'm not saying that's when you should judge him. I'm just saying I'm watching teams, as Eudonis Aslam said, at the end of games, point to Mobley and say get him in the pick and roll because we're going to put him on. And this is a very tight defensive player of the year race. I'm not supposed, I can't ignore this, Pontems. I mean, what am I supposed to say? Evan Mobley is going to be on my all-MBA ballot.

He's having a great year, but we're evaluating the Cavs as a championship contender, and I'm watching teams target Evan Mobley. And as McMahon saw, he got beat up by the big boy in the Clippers. There's going to be more big boys out there. So just calling it out. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, look, the Cavs, the Cavs hopes of being a championship level team. I mean, they need Evan Mobley to cover up a whole bunch of defensive issues.

I mean, look, we've talked about it a bunch. They've done an incredible job this season, but they're still playing too small. You know, Darius Garland's a negative defender. Donovan Mitchell's may be an average defender. You know, we've talked about DeAndre Hunter. He's no great defender. He is a good defender. Come on, he's a good defender.

Okay. If you talk to scouts, they'll say he's fine. He's average or worse. I mean, he's not, he's not seen as a positive defender by people in that. I don't think of as usual, just a wee bit harsh. You're doing the urine soak wet blanket. Okay. I mean, sure.

I mean, he's not. He ain't a bullseye, dude. He's a below average rebound. I didn't say he was a bullseye. I said he's average. They don't have any quality perimeter defenders. So Evan Morrow has to make up for a ton of stuff. And it's, like again.

I'll give you that. He's, they acquired him. His best value is that he's a plus 40% three point shooter at 6-8, which is a valuable player. They acquired him for what he can do at both ends. And if you want to say he doesn't rebound well, that's a fair assessment. That is, and the lineups with him in it were the lineups that were getting their butts kicked by the clippers. But go ahead. You guys are nice due today.

I like this. I mean, this is, this is better than Bontem's versus Malone. All right. Anyway, so I'm just saying, like, the Cavs lost three games in a row. It happens. They've, uh, they rested Darius Garland in Sacramento, but still, it was a bad loss. Sacramento didn't have Sabonis or Zach Levine, and they beat the calves. And the calves could not get stops down the stretch of that game. I think Sacramento scored on the last seven possessions of the game. Again, with Mowgli being targeted in the pick and roll by DeRote. And look, Demar de Rosen is one of the great clutch scores in the ordinary air of the NBA. I'm not. looking down my nose. I'm just saying, if you want to be defensive player at a year,

you know, that's what you're going to be judged. Well, and Draymond is, is campaigning. And I don't know. I suspect that the lawyer's PR staff might end up aiding him in that cause. Well, I'm going to put forth Dyson Daniels. I don't, Dyson. Dyson Danez is a winner of a football year. He is third in the odds, old, old Jacks. I don't care about, I don't care about the odds. This team is, his team is, ESPN bet does. Can I read him? Jackson put him in the chat. He did some work for once. Can I reward his work? Movin minus 250. Draymond plus 400. Daniels plus 900. J.J.J.J. Tripp. Jaron Jackson Jr. plus 13,000. Bondtems. The floor is yours.

I'm pretty sure it's not plus 13,000. Oh, plus 1,300. Jackson. Type on, Jacks. Dyson Daniels isn't winning defensive player of the year when his team's defense isn't good. And outside of steals, his individual on-ball defensive numbers aren't great. He's going to be on first or second all defense. He's had a great year. He shouldn't win defensive player the year. He's not going to.

All right. All of the all-stars in the league play the wing position, and he's defending them. You know, I mean, if you want to make a case for Lou Dort, I would listen to a case for Lou Dort. Because Lou Dort, night after night after night, deals with the all-star wings that he's smaller than. And because I see there's been like, and I know Perk has been part of this, but Perk has been calling for Shea Gildes Alexander.

Dortson 5th. He's at plus 18,000. Just kidding. 1800. Jackson. You don't make a case for Lou Dort. I'm here to listen to it. I'm looking at a guy having one of the great steals and deflection seasons in the history of the sport.

And the guy he's defending are the all stars every night. Yeah. But we do need to be very, very clear to however many of the 100 voters that listen, Lou Dort is the defensive player of the year candidate for the Oklahoma City Thunder. Yes.

Shea Gildes-Hagandar is a contributor to the number one overall defense. He has some great, you know, stocks numbers, steals, blocks. He's not first-team all defense on the Oklahoma City Thunder. Literally, he's not one of their top five defensive players. And if you don't believe me, ask him, you will tell you that. He would support Lou Dord's candidacy. He would throw his, he would bow out and throw his electoral votes or his delegates to Lou Dorr.

And like, if you watch the Thunder, which I'm allowed to do about once every 15 days, the way Lou affects the opposing player, like sometimes you see in baseball when you have a great pitcher and the pitcher's got like a great curveball or whatever. Like you see the guy gets into the batter's box and he's almost down 01 before

because he's so worried about dealing with the pitcher's great stuff that he's not even on his game. I see this with Lou Dorr. I see guys react to deal with Lou Dort and it gets them out of their game. And if you watch Dyson Daniels, the guy's getting his hand on the ball like 10, 12 times a game. Yeah. And, you know, I agree, Bontemps, you're right. His case is negatively dragged down by his overall team's defense and he has to wear that.

He's also not an incredible isolation defender. Like he's unbelievable getting in passing lanes, deflecting balls, moving around. Like, he's a great defensive player. I don't think he's the defensive player of the year. And just in general, it's very hard to argue that a wing player is more valuable than a big defensively. I understand that. But in this particular year where we don't have clarity on the bigs, it may be a year to consider. I mean, Evan Mowgli and Jaron Jackson and Draymond Green and I think even Avica Zubach all have had incredible years.

I agree. And I'm just saying that I think are all probably better candidates. You're counting Draymond as big in this discussion. Yes, for sure. Because Draymond, and like the other day when Draymond kind of had a platform to campaign, it was his individual defense on Janus that really gave him the platform. That's what's really fascinated by Draymond is he is the middle linebacker, you know, the guy who's anchoring a lot of it, but he can't also get out on the perimeter and guard.

Not every team's best player, you know, some of the super quick guards, you don't want them on, but a lot of them. Well, look, my vote will come down to what I don't trust my eyes on the defense. I will talk to assistant coaches and head coaches, and they will influence my vote. I have said this in the past. Tom Thibodeau convinced me to vote for Bam at a bio or defensive player the year two years ago. He was adamant about what Bam, and I'm not even sure how many votes Bam got that year, but I know few coaches watch as much film as Tom Thibodeau, and he was in fact

about it during our conversation. And so I'm saying Mowgli's Canada Sea took a little bit of a hit in the last few days. That's what I'm saying. He may still win it. I may still vote for him because that's what the coaches are going to tell me. I'm just telling you it took a little bit of a hit. And you saw the calves showing vulnerability, McMahon. I mean, that's, and you know, the clippers are showing strength as they try to fight back. And the calves are showing some vulnerability. And they've lost control of the top seat. Oklahoma City has it back. And the Thunder actually... Despite the fact, on accident, do you see that Oklahoma City lineup last night against the top six years? Now, why would they... Wendy?

Okay, Bon Temps, the Jazz got fined $100,000 last week for... What was the... What did the league deem it as? Player participation policy? Flagrantly. Yeah. We have seen since then, some stuff happened in this league. I mean, the tanking situation is getting more bloody by the day.

They've got to figure out some solutions. And I know Timbantim's a good friend of all of ours and a very pleasant fellow is working on a story about this. That's true. Some of that is true. It's not true. You keep challenging my integrity this pot and I say nice things about you. I'm not Michael Malone. I'm on your side.

What happened on Wednesday, the thunder had had two days off. Okay. They did not play Monday or Tuesday. They do not play Thursday today. And the Friday, they play the they play the Hornets. Thunder sat other guys to try to get their draft pick. And the Sixers are so bad that didn't matter. As I said before you got the game to you guys, I was sure the Thunder were going to win. The Thunder won by a thousand. Was the Sixers stink? Yeah. I don't think that has anything to do with any of the other things that are going on. Well, I do think it's interesting what the Thunder did. You know, it's, Jaylon Williams, Jay Will, just like when they got the, I guess they're, I don't know,

it's the investigation ongoing about the lineup they put out there against Portland when they spank their butts. But Jay Will has had triple doubles in both of those games. He's one of four Thunder players to have multiple triple doubles in a season now. Do you know the other three? They just got to roll out there with the ball every game and it will be good. We haven't had Wiz of the Quiz of the Quiz in a while. Bond Tem's been a busy man. He's kind of ignored those duties.

Wizard the Quiz. And now to present today's trivia question, the whiz of the quiz. The other three players have had multiple triple doubles in a season for the Oklahoma City Thunder. I saw this one. Westbrook. I hear you think. Okay. I saw the answer, so I'm not going to guess.

Wendy, another one is another one. I shoot Shagelis Alexander. Nope. Nope. I don't know. Go ahead. A gentleman who won an MVP there. Kevin Durant.

And a gentleman who you are. very fond of because he has great hair. And I was traded for a guy who has no hair. Probably not narrowing it down. Josh Giddy. Oh, Giddy, yeah. Yeah, anyway, so, yeah, Jay Wittell. I will just say it.

Let me just really quickly encapsulate what happened. The Thunder reportedly are under investigation for last week. It was two weeks ago now. Yeah. They played a game where they benched a bunch of guys. And they are under investigation for violation of player participation policy. That was a game on March 7th. I got to go see who they played that night.

They played the Blazers and they won by a thousand. And it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous that they're being investigated. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. You know who else thinks it's ridiculous, apparently, are the Thunder. Because despite being on that investigation, they then sat a bunch of top players, including Shegills and S Alexander,

even though they have a whole bunch of days off in around this game. Because- Julian Williams and Lou Dord have been hurt. But then they wrested others, including SGA. Right. And like I said, that's why there's an investigation because the teams can put whatever they want on their injury report. And the league has not policed injury reports the way the NFL polices injury reports. And therefore, it's a bleep show.

So you have situations where guys are truly injured, but listed is out. And other situations where stars are not really injured, but they're listed as out. And so the credibility is all over the place. And the league has let it go down the, down the block and around the corner and they're throwing fines here but not throwing fines there and there's teams sitting four starters and nothing happens and other

teams sitting multiple starters and getting fined and so it's just a mess you got everybody trying to get Cooper flag it's just and like it's at the back end of the league so you know like and where NCAA tournament's going on so like if you bought a ticket

to the game to see Shea you feel the pinch but the overwhelming feeling in the league like the overarching, it's not something that's being discussed nationally as much. But this one is fascinating because of the pick protections and that whole situation. And it's a number one seat. It's not a Cooper flag entrant. Right.

And the pick is top six protected. And so with every victory, with every sixers victory, it increases the Thunder's chances that they get that pick. So the Thunder who blew out the Blazers when they didn't play anybody and then blew out the Sixers, they didn't play core players. I will say this. Talk about crazy stats, and this sort of illustrates what's going on

with the Sixers right now. So Quentin Grimes, who... They're overcoming his brilliance. Quentin Grimes, who was traded at the trade deadline to Philly, and another trade

that's not looking so good for that. Yeah, the second least popular trade of the Nico Harrison era on the Mavix fans. Right. So he's putting up, how many did he have less?

night. He had, I mean, somebody's got his score, but he's obviously playing great. He's playing out his mind, yeah. He had 28 last. Is he a free agent? He is. Restricted free agent. God bless him. What way to go, buddy. Well, and that's honestly, that's why the Mavericks trade him. He wanted a mid-level type of deal. And they're like, no, we want you that, you know, kind of that Naji Marshall number, that Cody Martin number, and off he went. Well, that's all well and good, but they have the restricted rights and they could have used them the rest of the season, but that's water under the bridge. He's averaging- They didn't call me for my advice before they made the deal. Clearly. He's averaging 28 and a half points a game over the last 10 games. Okay. There are,

I'm not doing Woods with the quiz. I'm just going to tell you that there are four guards in the history of the storied 76ers franchise. Alan Iverson, James Harden. Yeah. Take it too. Go on. No, actually not Hardin. Not Hardin. Okay. Mo Cheeks? I mean, no. Andrew Tony. He's on there. So, well, I'll just tell you that the guys who are retired are Hall of Famers. So there's, There's four guards in the history of the Sixers organization who have averaged 28 and a half over 10 games. James Harden 8-1. Alan Iverson, Hall of Famer.

Hal Greer, Hall of Fame. Tyrese Maxie, All-Star. Okay. Clinton Grimes. Oh, wow. Quinn Grimes is the other one. He also had a stat line the other day. He's got to get maxed out.

He had a stat line, I think in the Houston game, that the only other person in the history of franchise who'd ever done it is the big fella. That's when he had 46, but the top six. They had like five blocks or something. Yeah, the top sixers blew. I don't know how big the lead got, but they were up eight with less than a minute to go and went to overtime and lost. They were up 20 at the half, 19 or 20.

They scored like 78 points in the first half. Yeah, and they shot like 19 for 30 from three in the first half or something. How pissed off do you think Emeo doke was at halftime after the top sixers put 78 points of? Do you think he was more or less mad than Bucon? when Bon Temps, when Bon Temps kept getting interrupted by yours truly. I don't think he was, I don't think he was very happy. Were you? I don't think, Mr. I think you, without being there, I would guess that Emay's,

Eme was more angry than annoyed, which Bon Temps is annoyed. I think Eme gets a little angry. Oh, I can get to, I can get to anger. I'm on the path, baby. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. By the way, also on Wednesday night, Cade Cunning, banked in a three-pointer at the buzzer to give the heat their

ninth consecutive loss. And I will just point out real quick because Bontemps has an interesting story that I want to talk about and I suspect we might really get him riled up, McMahon, when we talk about this. When we talk about this, that victory over Detroit pulled them to within one game of Milwaukee for the five seed.

Milwaukee has lost, I think, they've definitely lost a couple in a row, And over the last 10 games, they're five and five. They were hot and they've lost them in a row. And now they've lost the four seed and now they've got the pistons right on them for the 60. That is, of course, interesting because if you're the Knicks, who have struggled a little bit against the pistons this year,

you are watching where the pistons are potentially for that first round. And if you're the calves, you would love to see Janice and Dane fall into the other half of the bracket. Even though they won four and O against the bucks in the regular season, you know, I'd like to see, I'd like to not have Janice in my side of the bracket. So keep an eye on that. And the Pacers have won four out of five. The other night, they were missing four starters and pulled out a win over the Timberwolves. The Timberwolves had won eight in a row at that point and they pulled it up. Well, and it was another, it was another awful exhibit of hero ball with the game on the line by hand, who we all love. But like, Aunt, Ant's performance in those

situations is the difference between the wolves being an eight seed right now and you know the wolves maybe being in the four or five mix well by the way last night Wednesday night they played in warrants he goes five for 19 and they lose to the pelicans I mean we talked about the the woles having a chance to get maybe up into the top four maybe it certainly into the top six with the how soft their schedule was those are catastrophic losses that's back-to-back games at home you can't can't lose those games at home when you're trying to get out of the playing. And like I said, they had a real path to home court even if they had won these, like kept on the street they were on. Obviously, they had to close hot, but they had a real chance to. And you just can't,

can't be kicking away games like that with where the Western Conference is. Could be the differently playing the thunder or being out of the playing. Yeah. Well, and the Clipper, like I said, the Clippers have the afterburners on and have moved past them. Okay. And the Warriors are playing great. Real quick on the Pacers. The Pacers were losing. to the Mavericks, who are not tanking on purpose, McMahon. They're just losing. The Mavericks were ahead by seven-point Wednesday night going into the final minute. Oh, yes. And got outscored by the Pacers in the final minute. That's 60 seconds, 14 to 3. And the Pacers have been behind in the last 20 seconds of the game three times in the last five games and won all three of them.

So, like, you know, some of it, I mean, you know, some of this, you know, look, and, and, uh, they did have Pascal Seaccom back last night. There was one game in there where Obie Tappen had a 30 point game. One game Andrew Nemhart had a 30 point game. Tala Burton's been out with a sore back. They're doing it with a wing and a prayer. But still, that's different. You know, they're in fourth place now because of that. And, you know, you're down seven in the last minute.

I don't know what, uh, what BPI says or whatever. But I, my guess is it's in the high 90s. You're going to take care of them. Yeah. And they didn't. All right. I want to talk about this story that Bontemps put out today. It's an interesting story.

It's looking at the 11 teams that are rebuilding. How did you define rebuilding, Bontems? It's either teams that are openly tanking this year or teams that are sort of stuck or trying to figure out what direction they're going in, say like Atlanta, right, which obviously doesn't have their pick, but it's clearly shifting in a younger direction overall. And I included Detroit in there because they had been rebuilding. And obviously, Pistons are having a tremendous season and are coming out of it.

But I think would still be seen as a team that's putting together a team rather than one that's fully complete. Right. Okay. So you rank them. And there's a few rankings in here. I'd like to have you discuss. Sure. That's okay.

I will say off the jump, it was a very difficult thing to do in March, in part because a lot of these rankings will change very wildly. based off what happens in six weeks at the lottery. Of course. Wendy loves some rankings. All right. Number one you've got is dispersed. Totally agree. Yeah.

And it helps that they got Victor Bundyama. But as you point out, you talk about all these teams, tradable first round picks. In other words, their ability to make moves to improve their roster. I think that's a very good way to view the teams. And the other thing I'm going to tell you is,

as I look at these teams, you have ranked and I'm not going to go into all the rankings. Most of these teams, I'm not happy with where their rebuilds are. But I would also agree with that too. There's not many that you feel super strongly about right now. And so like I mean, all honesty, like how you rank, you know,

the wizards relative to the jazz, you know, like we could have a conversation about that, but you're just sort of putting it out there. I would say that the teams from two to eight on the list, I think you could put in just about any order. Right. And it would totally flip on its head depending on the lottery. Well, yeah, and I just think if you want to rank any of them from two to eight now,

I think you can make an argument basically for any of, I would say. All right, let me just say this. So, yeah, the Spurs get lucky in the lottery. You know, they tanked to get there, but they get lucky in the lottery to get Victor. But one of the reasons why you got them number one, in addition to their draft assets, is that they look like they might have drafted the rookie of the year in consecutive years, you know? The Fon Castle is the main reason they're number one is because they got the seven, the seven five dude from France.

But Stafon Castle is great. We love to find cast. Here's where I just would like you to explain. Sure. The number two ranked team on the rebuild you hear, you have the Charlotte Hornets. Mm-hmm. This surprised me. Please.

I mean, I know you said two to eight. They have they have Lamello Ball. They have Brandon Miller. They have Mark Williams. They have, and they have a really good chance of getting Cooper Flag. And if you get, if you put Cooper Flag with their young talent, that's a group that's got a really high ceiling. Now, if they end up with the fifth or sixth pick in the draft, I think you could put them at seventh, maybe. But the thing is, if you look at the teams behind them, which I think I had in order is Washington, Brooklyn, and Utah, the Hornets have way more present-day talent than those teams.

And they have a very good chance of getting Cooper flag. They already tried to trade Mark Williams because they don't think they're in love with them. I don't think Mark Williams is anything great. It's mainly they have lamello ball and Brandon Miller, both of whom are very good. And if you add Cooper Flag to that, that's the core of a team that has, I think, a very high ceiling. You guys know at the beginning of the season, I kind of swarled with you guys because I was so, I was very high on Lamello. And I've hated watching him this year. Well, and I tell you, I'm curious to see what happens in the future with him.

Yeah, I think it's a, I mean, I wrote it in there. It's a huge question. What happens with Lamello there going forward? I don't know. I was hoping he was going to, you know, coming back healthy, I was hoping he was going to take steps forward. I was hoping that he, you know, with new coaching and new systems was going to be not so much of an embarrassment defensively because at the end of the day, he does have good size. And instead, his shot selection has just degraded. He's just not been a serious basketball

player. Thank you. That's well said. And so I'm reacting. You said it before too. I'm, yes, I have to, you guys were right on that. I fought against you at the beginning of the season. I was optimistic about Lamello taking steps forward this year. In my opinion, he is not. My internet's a little fuzzy. What'd you say? It is a little fuzzy right now. We can barely hear you.

It is. Actually, but I think you might have said that. You guys were what? You guys were correct. I was wrong. I was wrong. Okay, you have the Pistons eighth here, Bontems. And I don't disagree with you on this,

but I'd like you to explain why you have them eighth because they're obviously going to be in the playoffs this year. Look, the Pistons are having an awesome. year. Cade Cunningham, as you said, hit that shot last night. He's going to make all NBA. I'm a huge Kade fan. I love the way the Pistons have played. Jibby Bickerstaff has done a great job. They surrounded Cade with shooting for the first time. He looks like a totally different player. All that is true. The problem for the Pistons from a like looking at their rebuild standpoint is they clearly need another really high end guy next to Cade if they want to become a contender, like a true contender,

not a team that's just making it to the playoffs. And if they're going to be a middle of the pack team in the first round or in the east right now, that removes them from keeping their draft pick, which takes one potential path for them to get that kind of player. And Detroit is not a free agent destination. So it's hard to see them even with some free some cap space signing that kind of difference making player in free agency. So the other thing is to Detroit, Detroit's floor is our.

already high. And like, for example, the two teams in front of them, New Orleans and Toronto, if they don't get Cooper, if they finish six, seventh, whatever, in the lottery, they're not going to be ahead of Detroit if we did this again in July. But they have a way better chance of getting Cooper flag. And if you add Cooper flag to the young group of talent those teams have, they're going to be ahead of where Detroit is overall from a talent standpoint. So that's why they ended up there. It's not a commentary on Detroit's season, which has been awesome. Yeah, it's a tough, it's a tough methodology, but I think it's an interesting methodology. I see your rationale. But it does really underscore, this is we already know, but when you see it like this, it just underscores why the lottery

means so much, which is why the tanking is going on right now. Because everybody else in the league that are these decision makers of these teams have the same analysis as Bontems here. And they know the difference between being seventh or ninth in this is getting in that top four. And by the way, The Spurs would be right in that same middle of the pack or worse if they didn't win the lottery, but they did. Right, which is why this tanking is going on, which is why, like, I don't know, maybe the league doesn't, maybe it's truly not a priority. And maybe the fines are just sort of to try to, you know, be performative. But they're either going to enforce their rules or they're not. And if the rule, what's going on right now is not, this tanking that we have right now is, I don't know if it's as bad as it's ever been, but it's as widespread.

prize it's ever been. Yeah. It's really bad. And look, this goes back to what I said on Tuesday that the man keeps referring to about Denver, which I do want to talk about for one second because I've been misquoted by people in Denver who a lot of whom have my number and have not bothered to contact me this week and have just said a lot of things without actually listening to what I said. I think you should put your number out there right now.

I am not going to do that. And by the way, that doesn't include Michael Malone who talked about this before the game yesterday and I thought said totally reasonable things and has been totally normal because Mike is great. Michael, I should say. What I said on Tuesday actually was Nicole Yokic, I saw him play in Boston recently. He plays all the time. He's clearly playing through stuff. He does not sit out games. However, the league put in the player participation policy to try to emphasize nationally televised games and have star players playing in those games. And what I said was it was a bad look for the NBA that a marquee game featuring the best player on the planet,

Nicole Yolkich, and one of the best players of all time, Steph Curry, with both teams hot and playing great and potentially meeting in the playoffs, became another conversation about players not playing. Tom Abistro last night tweeted that 21 star players were not playing in games last night. Like some of them were hurt, some of them were resting, whatever. it sucks that so much of our conversation about the sport, which we all like to do, we like to talk about the NBA on this podcast, goes back to guys being hurt or guys not playing. Like the Celtics had those five games in a row against elite teams recently. Not one of those five games did both teams have their complement of players available. Every one of them was either Boston had guys out,

the other team had guys out. And we always had to keep saying, well, the Celtics didn't up or Zingis who drew holiday or all LeBron got hurt or, you know, Jaylon Williams was out for the thunder, right? All these guys are hurt. Just like, obviously, Nicole Yokin's didn't play again Wednesday. He's clearly banged up. He's been banged up for weeks. He never complains.

Or he didn't play again. Or he didn't play again. But, you know, it's, I think he said disgrace and then it got aggravated and then people in Denver got the first. I didn't say, I never said the nuggets were a disgrace. I said it was a, it was a horrible and bad look for the NBA that this was the discussion again. And by the way, it's going to remain a discussion because we have guys hurt and not playing all over the place.

So I actually, I was a little surprised that they didn't play last night. They are clearly banged up if this was a playoff game. But they'd play, yes, but they wouldn't be it at 100%. The nuggets are prioritized and trying to get their stars fully healthy, overseeding, obviously. I did watch Jamal Murray play a brief little one-on-one game about two hours and change before tip. off and he was playing John Beckett, another friend of the pod. That's right. Nuggets assistant coach, former Eckerd College point guard.

Now, Hecker College is a nice D2 program. That's the one where I went through a preseason and then realized I'd be riding the pine, so I focused on my strengths at the time, which is partying. But I love J.B. If he's getting buckets on Jamal Murray, he ain't ready to go out there and deal with an Austin Reeves type of guy. And he was getting buckets on Jamal Murray. So that game was cut short.

Michael Malone came out. They had a chat. The decision was made, you're not playing the night, buddy. And then, you know, the Joker one, like that did actually really surprise me because I was there the night in Oklahoma City when Malone, this was the second night of that back to back. The Thunder had smacked him before.

Malone tried to talk out, talk him out of playing that night, and Joker said, hell no. So I was like, there's no way he's going to sit against Luke and the Lakers. The last time, you know, the only time he'd seen the Lakers, with Luca in uniform, the Lakers smacked him pretty good. I'm like, it's in a way Joe's going to sit this one out, but he did. And that tells you he's really, he's really dealing with some stuff. And I think the elbows is a pretty big concern.

Like it's, you know, his three point shooting is really dipped. You know, last time I told him. That was when he banged again in the Laker game, right, Tim? I think so. Or not the Laker game. I met the Thunder game last year. Yeah, he took a fall. That's when he heard it.

He took a fall. That's when he heard it. In the first Thunder game, then he came back and played in the next Thunder game. The next year. Yeah. And I took a look at, I got, you know, an up close look at it when he was warming up. And there was, there was several different colors of it. I mean, it was black and blue for sure.

And then he's been dealing with an ankle for a while. And so, you know, we'll see when they're back. But old Michael Malone, want to make sure everyone knew this is not rest. This is guys. Well, and they're also not a team that they're not a team. They're guys play all the time. They just happened to happen the night. before so I talked about them in the context.

By the way, Michael alone has been a guest on our podcast before. Mike knows, yeah, which again, the people who, when he was on and said he didn't know who I was, the people who said my name said it so poorly, I would assume he just didn't know who I was talking about. Oh, no. He landed. That was a shot to the heart. Next time I'm trying to mess with you.

I'm just going to tell you I don't know who you are. I thoroughly enjoyed, I thoroughly enjoyed his comment and he did exactly what he was supposed to But that would none of that. You didn't enjoy them as much as I did. Well, yes, that's always true. The bottom line is it was not a commentary on Denver or on the Nuggets, as much as a commentary on this being a very unfortunate, ongoing problem that the league is dealing with.

And we just spend an awful amount, we're awful lot of the time talking about key games where guys aren't playing. And it's just, it's not a good thing for the league. Okay. By the way, and I know that the two seeds are going to change dramatically probably will be different by the time this pod posts. But as of right now, the rockets with an eight straight, with an eight, we talked about them a couple days ago on the pod. The rockets have clawed from five to two with that eight game one streak. Well, and by the way, to go back to the wolves thing, right, here's who the rockets have beaten that streak.

The pelicans twice, the magic twice, the suns, the Mavs, the Bulls, and the Sixers. Now they play the heat on Friday. But you know what they didn't do? Kick away any of those games, which when you're in this race, that's what you got to do. You've got to take advantage of the spots in your schedule where you can make ground up and do so. And Houston, like McMahon said, the wolves have kicked away all sorts of games this year. And the rockets have it. And that's why the rockets are sitting where they are and the wolves are in the playing.

It's true. All right. Everybody have a nice day. Enjoy your time. Upstate. Long time. Seems like it's going great. All right, McMahon.

enjoy your time in Los Angeles. Thank you for watching The Hoop Collective. Thank you for listening to The Hoop Collective. And thank you to Jackson and our producer. We'll talk to you next week. Adios Amigos.