Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - SGA & Thunder Make A Statement, How A Suspension Created ‘A Nicer Draymond’

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the Thunder thrashing the Cavs in a rematch in OKC including SGA’s outstanding performance and if this game highlighted some flaws for Cleveland. Plus, ESPN’s Ohm Youngmisuk joins to discuss his fascinating sit down with Draymond Green regarding his change in approach to mental health and Steph Curry clarifying his comments on the future of the Warriors franchise. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome the HOOC Collected podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Friday morning. We thought we were going to be doing it on Thursday night,

but McMahon apparently was hanging out with Tyler Ford after the game and made us wait until Friday morning. Joining us from Miami, Florida, where he's going to the Heat Nuggets game on Friday, ostensibly because Jimmy Butler's coming back from suspension, Tim Potemps. It's a good word, Brian. Hello, everybody. I don't think it's obsessively because Jimmy Butler's coming back. I think it's because Jimmy Butler is potentially coming back.

And that's about it. So we'll see what happens. Continue to fight through laryngitis because I'm a champion. Joining us from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, the site of an absolute beatdown by the thunder tonight at the Paycom Center where he is, it's a bad McMahon. Howdy, partners, and I will tell you, it is still Thursday here. You guys are complaining because I was taking my time, getting the job done,

post game, getting things written. up, was not hanging out with Tyler Ford, did bump into him. We're talking about our favorite little we fellow ref. We all know him, the recent podcast guest, an inspiration for the minimum height requirement that I had softened on. I had softened on because Tyler had just grown up in front of our very eyes. Or so I felt that I run into him in the hotel lobby this afternoon. That little punk is wearing an Oklahoma, I'm sorry, an Ohio State sweatshirt.

right here in SEC country. Just fresh off Ohio State beating Texas in the Cotton Bowl. I knew there was another reason I didn't like them. I let them know that. And it just got me thinking, you know, Ohio State, here in Oklahoma kind of ballsy because Baker Mayfield's the original flag planner. And Wendy, you might know this as an Ohio guy. Those politicians up there that are lobbying to make it like a, you know,

death sentence felony for planting the flag right in the middle of that oh, how tall are they? That was an, it's embarrassing. I agree. I'm with you on that. It's an embarrassing law. They're probably about five foot, five and a half and claim five seven. It's going to tell you that since we did that podcast where there was some drama between

James Capers and Tyler Ford over whether you wear your whistle on a lanyard or you hold it. I ran into a veteran ref recently and he didn't say anything to me. He only looked at me and he goes, no self-respecting referee uses a lanyard and just walked away. I would use a lanyard if I was a referee. All right. By the way, speaking of little folks, what a victory for the little people tonight. Those wee little Oklahoma City Thunder, Chet Holgren, still out. No Isaiah Hardinstein.

Here come the big bag, Cleveland Cavaliers, Jared Allen, Evan Moby, those boys bullied them. in Cleveland. Well, you look up midway through that 30 to 2 run in the first half. Well, it was 12 to 12. And then it wasn't. And then it was a whole lot to not much. And both bigs were sitting on the bench in the first half. They decided to go small and try to match up with the thunder.

Whoopsie, Daisy. The calves waved the white flag on that. They let the thunder totally take them out of the game. This one was check marks. across the board for the thunder. Number one, absolutely is intense, high-level activity defense, as I've seen in years for a short stretch. In that first quarter, what it reminded me of was the night Linsanity died.

Here. So I'm so sorry to our friend Rob Perez, Jason Concepcion, referencing Linn Sanity in Miami. Yeah. The Miami Heat had seen enough of Jeremy Lynn and applied such a defensive, intense pressure in that game that essentially the Knicks waved the white flag in the first quarter and Jeremy Lynn was never the same. He also got hurt on his knee.

But so number one, absolutely the thunder at their pesky, ball hawking, pass lane, crunching, high intensity, best. 22 points off of turnovers in the first half. They lead the league in that category with 23 and change per game, just to put that in perspective. And Kenny Atkinson said it was like there were seven pit bulls out there, not five. That was his exact quote. Seven turnovers for 10 points in the first quarter. First quarter of the game.

And by the way, there were other possessions that weren't turnovers that essentially were because the calves just, you know, called mercy. So, Thunder, absolutely awesome on defense. Secondly, Thunder crushing it from three-point range, crushing it from three-point range, crushing it. Just three, three, Lou Dort, humpfake, relocate, firing up a three like he's Steph Curry. Splash, splash, splash. Dort developing into a premier three-point shooter is shocking, given, like, if you saw his jumper when he first was trying to break in the league, and just a huge development because he's obviously a dominant defender. He's one of the very best three-and-d players in the league.

And asked Donovan Mitchell part of that. Chip England, their shooting coach, who they hired away from San Antonio. So that was going on. Well, yeah, and then they said, Chip said, hey, I can't help you with Gideon. They traded him for Caruso. Yeah, at one point in the first quarter, the Cavs went to Desperation Zone. Now, they do play a lot of zone, but they kind of like just couldn't stop the Thunder. so they went to zone.

And Alex Caruso, who's having a terrible shooting season, just coming back from injury, he immediately hit two-threes to break the zone. Like, that's the kind of night it was. And so check-mark, check-mark. And then the third one, number two. We read the stat line for number two in the game? He was number two in your MVP vote last year. I don't know if he's going to be number two this year.

Go ahead. So in 29 minutes through three-quarters, Chey Gillick-Ex-Ele-Ele-Ele-Zander, had 40 points on 17 for 26 shooting, five-for-five at the line, one for five on threes, it means you be 16 for 21 on twos, just under 80%. Not bad. Three boards, eight assists, two steals, two turnovers, plus 32 in 29 minutes. And by the way, in the first quarter of this game, as the game was over at the end of the first quarter, this was Sheg Gilles Alexander's line in the first quarter of this game.

Cavs 14 points. Shea, 15 points. Six for nine from the field. A couple free throws. four assists. He scored or assists on 10 of the 12 baskets in the corner, one steel, one turnover, plus 18 playing every minute of the quarter and leading the evisceration of the cast. Just in complete control. And, you know, watching him, it's so remarkable because he never looks like he's going full speed, right? He just in control all the time. He just glides and he's always on balance.

And like you don't, it doesn't look like he's going full speed and he's blowing by people. And like the ability to change speeds is so amazing. The ability to just stop on a dime be on balance. I mean, and like I said, just complete control of this one. And, you know, he is as even keel as you'll find as far as like a star in the league goes. But, you know, he knows when it's a national TV game. He knows when, okay, hey, they got us last week and want a little bit of payback. And you can tell by his fits, tonight, the man was wearing some fancy cowboy boots.

Cowboy chic, I think it was. Yeah, Cowboy Sheek with the little chaps and all that. The IT department reached out and wanted me to find out where he got those chaps, thought I might look good in him. Oh, my God. The IT department definitely has better taste than that. So many things could be said right now, but I will not say them. I mean, she reached out to me. I didn't even know the man Warchaps in until she informed me.

Anyway, there was a moment in the second quarter of this game where the calves cut it. I mean, I am being very generous. Darius Garland, who was the only really impressive Cavs starter. I guess Jared Allen was okay, but he got eaten up. He got pulled, but yeah, he played well for the first few minutes and then the Avalanche started. So the Cavs made some sort of attempt to. feign like they might try to come back. They got it to like 16 points.

Mark Daganal calls timeout. Shea realizes this ain't happening tonight, and they come out of a timeout. He scores on three straight possessions. You got the impression he might have scored on 10 straight if he really wanted to on this night. And that was it. Over. Over.

I want to point something out. How big was the lead? Did it get to 40? 42. By the way, the lead was 20. 26 at halftime. It was 23, and then they're like, oh, Max Drew stepped out of bounds on a three. Make it 26. Tyler Ford, no mercy.

Yeah, like as bad as the first half was for the Cavaliers, it got worse after they went to the locker room. But the 26 point deficit was the worst of the season to that point for the Cavaliers, and then it increased to 42 before benches were cleared. Last week, Donna of the Mitchell went up against Lou Dort, and I understand it's not a modern. Emano. These are team defenses, but Lou Dore was a primary defender. Last week, Donovan Mitchell was three of 16. You remember that that game was defined by how awesome the calves were with their bigs,

you know, playing off each other, big to big passing, whatever. Garland was good. Dean Wade was good that game, but really was about Mobley and Jared Allen. And Max Drewson and Ty Jerome going crazy off the bench. Tonight, after three of six, last week. Tonight, Donovan Mitchell, three of 15, minus 28. In 20 minutes. And Donovan totally owned it. Donovan basically said, yeah, I'm paraphrasing, but wasn't, didn't come ready to play. They set the tone, put this one on him. This is two straight, you know, this is twice against this team, that he was bad.

and that when, you know, the leader of a team doesn't show up and it trickles down. Again, it's paraphrasing, but Donovan completely stood up and owned it. And he gave credit to Lou Dort. Like, listen, we've talked about the fact that Lou Dort's not been all defensive in his career, is nuts. And if it doesn't change. It's been on my ballot, buddy. I hear you. If it doesn't change this year, then honestly, like, I don't know what to say.

It just would be completely nuts. But I asked old Mark D, whose LinkedIn page just keeps looking better and better. The resume is really looking sharp. I asked him, hey, you know, two straight games that Donovan had really tough nights. And he says, we've got the whole team amped up on their main guys. But, I mean, Lou Dort's a monster every night. He takes those matchups and sometimes people get the best of them. But he's so hard to shake and he's so relentless on that end.

And, you know, that sums up, like, again, the impact that Lou has on this, he's the best player on the best defense in the league, and he's become a good complimentary player. And he's a massive culture guy. Well, and look, we should say, and I think we all agree on this, like one bad game against this team does not erase what the Cavs did last week, nor does it erase anything we said about their legitimacy this season. However, what I will say is, if you watch this game. and you watch how easy it was for Shea, who is maybe the MVP of the league, to get wherever he wants, and you talk about the impact Lou Dork can have on the other side, my biggest concern about this Cavs team when you're talking about them trying to get to the absolute apex, you know, getting to the finals, winning a title with this group,

they really don't have any perimeter defensive athleticism on the team. And- A-Coro, but boy, was he rough tonight. Isaac Okoro is not the answer. So Okoro hurt his shoulder a couple of weeks ago since he's come back. He's never, his percentages have been okay the last couple of years, but he really has looked rusty shooting the ball. He airballed two-threes tonight. I mean, it was really wrong.

Like I said. He's a fine, he's a fine player. But like, that's not, Isaac Okoro has not been the answer in the past in playoff matchups. He's not going to be the guy. to put on Che Gilles-Alxander or Jason Tatum or whoever in the playoffs. Like that, if you're looking at this game from a Kaz perspective and you want to say what's one takeaway from it, if you're playing it against the absolute apex competition, they do not like, yes, they're going to lean on the bigs to do that.

The bigs can only do so much with that. Right. And that is something I think that is a legitimate concern to take away from it. But it's, you know, this certainly shouldn't be anything more than that. And look, for the Thunder, coming off that game last week where we talked about them struggling with the size of the calves inside, you know, it certainly looked like a team that took the rematch of this personally, especially without Isaiah Hartenstein. And plenty of people, including me, thinking they were going to have a lot of trouble in this game without both him and chat. And they came out and made a heck of a statement with the way they just completely overwhelmed these guys. So I would to want to say that when the Thunder made that trade for Alex Caruso, there were people in the league who, and nobody in Oklahoma City ever said this, just to be clear that I heard.

But there were people in the league who thought, well, that's such a good acquisition and they're going to extend him, which they did. You know, Lou Dort might be a guy who could be available. They may, you know, look to flip Lou Dort into some sort of big guy. I thought it too, and I heard people just connecting, doubt speculating on it. Lou Dort, I would say is virtually, because, you know, no one is very few, is virtually an untouchable player. His value, plus he's got two years left on his contract at $17 million each. Yeah. And again, I just wrote this story on like this culture they've built here.

He is a huge, huge part of that. He is the only guy other than Chey Gildes Alexander who has been here for this whole, was here on the first, you know, the last playoff team they had under Billy Don, the bubble playoff team for the whole tear down and the whole build back up. He's the only one who's been here the whole time. And if you just talk about like what are the thunder about? Ultimately, they are about toughness and they are about player development. Yep.

And he epitomizes. and they're about their business. He epitomizes all that. And Shade, look, Shay does too. And when you talk about culture, your superstar is going to be the biggest factor in it. But again, Lou is just a huge part of that. And he gets toughest defense of Simon every night.

And he can guard so many different guys because he is so strong and for his guy who's as wide as he is, unbelievably quick feet. Well, look, he's a guy who was, you know, played at Arizona State, went undrafted, was on a two-way with this team, was a guy who came in the league as a guy who couldn't, wasn't seen as much of a shooter. And that was a big part of why he ended up going to draft. No, no, no, he had a terrible jump shot. Yes, no, I know.

That's why he went undrafted despite being a, you know, a 6-4 tank of a human. And like last year he shot 39% from 3. This year before tonight's game, he shot, he's shooting 41.5% from that. three. And like we talk about all the draft picks the Thunder have and, you know, getting Jalen Williams and Chey and, you know, Kaysen Wallace is another lottery pick starter. Chet Holmgren, obviously lottery picks starter. Like this guy was an undrafted guy who was signed to a two-way and they has turned into one of the best wing defenders in the league and one of the best three and D players in the league. Like you said, when you talk about player development and a franchise that is, you know, turned

pieces into players. Again, you look at this roster. Aaron Wiggins, Isaiah Joe, like Alex Caruso, once upon a time, came up through the Thunder System before he went to the Lakers. Kenrich Williams, another undrafted guy. They have done a great job

of developing depth behind these lottery picks they've had, and it's a huge part of why they have such a deep team. And look, you look at their rotation right now. There are four first round picks in their rotation. The rest are second rounders, undrafted guys. Of those four first round picks, and I'm counting Chet, only one was a single-digit lottery pick.

Chet is the only single-digit lottery pick on this roster. Now, if you want to 34 and 6 is scary enough right now. Big picture, what's really scary is the Thunder are probably going to have at least a handful of lottery picks over the next several years. It gets pretty scary. They could have lottery picks. this year. They are, yeah, they could. So they lost to the Cavs last Tuesday, last Wednesday.

They've played four games since they lost that game. They've won by 20. This is a 20-point win, but that was really not even accurate. I mean, it could have been worse. Again, it was 42 late in the third quarter. It was an absolute. The final score was 20. They played part, they didn't play anybody.

for the Sixers. They didn't play anybody but the Wizards. The two games they played against big-time teams, the Cavs and the Knicks, they won by a combined thousand points in the competitive portions of the game. Anyway, the four games since they've lost to the Cavs, they won by 41, 25, 16, and 20. Bellas, again, this team is 34 and 6, which puts them on pace for rounding up 70 wins. Their point differential is 13 per game. The NBA record is 20. 12.3 by the 71, 72 Lakers. Yeah. I'm just trying to, like, give you a picture with numbers of just how dominant this Oklahoma

city team has been this season. Yeah. By the way, out of their next 13 games, nine of them are home. Yeah. And they've got some soft ones in there now. Listen, Ardenstein's going to be, you know, reevaluated in about a week. they don't think it's a serious injury, but he'll be out for a little bit. Chet's, you know, he's making gradual progress.

It's not like you're going to see Chet on the court or playing, I should say. He's gotten on the court, but you're not going to see him playing probably during Hartnstein's absence, certainly. So, you know, they're going to have to manage this stretch again. And now, they are now four and three in games when they don't have one of those two guys for the full game. they are 30 and three when they have one of the other. 30 and three.

And in the early stretch of the season when they were missing those guys, they didn't have Jayley Williams either, who is. They will, the backup center. Right. Who's a, you know, it was like the 34th or 35th pick of the draft. It is a perfectly serviceable rotation big. And so like that, they at least have a real center. They can play out there now for a chunk of the game instead of what they were doing before,

which was basically trying to play a bunch of six-six guys, the entire game, which is clearly wearing them out. Well, and we found out tonight, or at least there was an accusation made postgame. And I'm just telling you, it was, there was some friction. You know, we talked about this great thunder chemistry. I think it was threatened tonight post game. Shea Gildesis Alexander called J.lyn Williams J. Dubb, six foot four, which, you know, they do their little post game side by side.

J. Dub bowed up. Well, I'm six, six. And he said, hold on, it's going to sound better this way. His point was, at six foot four, this guy guards one through five. Like, he's guarding Evan Mowgli tonight when Mowgli just was a total non-factor. Moby was two of seven. Yeah, Mowgli had as many turnovers as buckets and didn't play a whole lot. Anyways, and they had kind of a funny little back and forth.

You know what, though? The Thunder did play a seven-footer tonight. Brandon Carlson. And if you feel bad because you've never heard of them, don't. It's okay. This is a guy who was on an on-garend. They picked him up, whatever. I forgot off who's G-League team.

And he was on the Snobters. Okay, well, listen to how do you spell Brandon? Do you even know? It's with a need, I don't know. Take that. I found that out because I typed in the wrong way in basketball reference and had to figure it out the hard way. Anyways, they are now, well, first of all, he played all of garbage time.

But in the five minutes of early action, first quarter action that he was in, he was plus 18. He came in and, you know, and he's on a 10-day deal now. He was on a non-guarantee. They cut them, signed him back to a 10-day. You know, just kind of one of these thunder fines, been hanging around and pressed dag and all because he, like, picked up the playbook like that. But listen, I think they should play them more because you know why? Here's some numbers for you. I don't have the average margin of victory, but it's massive.

It's like, maybe like 20s per game. I didn't do the math. But I did this math. They are 11-0 when Brandon Carlson plays. Now, that's kind of like the- They're a human victory cigar. Yeah, that's kind of like the, hey, when teams run the ball 25 times per game, you know, their record's awesome type of thing.

But yes. Well, it was a damn impressive performance by The Thunder Tonight. If they keep playing like that, they will win the title. I'll tell you that, because that was just, and it really, you know, the Cavs, and I don't know if it was the Hartenstein injury that dulled them. The level of competitiveness that last week's game featured was absolutely not there from the Cavs early on in this game. You know, the Thunder were going to win this game no matter what, but you know that they're going to play physical, aggressive defense. The Cavs were ready for that last week.

They were not ready for it in this game. Kenyackinson quote here. Yeah, this Kenyackinson quote pretty much sums up this night. They imposed their will in every sense. We knew it was coming. We knew their force was coming. That's their identity. They imposed their identity.

It was an avalanche and we never responded. Yeah. I mean, it's funny you brought up, but I hadn't thought about that insanity game, Brian. And like once you said it, I was thinking about it. And like watching that first quarter, just watching the second half, because again, it was 12 to 12, six minutes in. It's like, it's not like this start.

it out with them on a 20 to 2 run and they were off to the races. But then, like, once they got in a rhythm defensively and they, like, put the clamps on, I mean, they do some stuff as a team with their athleticism and their pressure and their physical out. Like, it's as good as I've ever seen a team guard. And it's really unbelievable to see them get into it, especially, like, we saw, we were so impressed with this cast team last week with the way they were able to. attack this defense and get to their stuff. And the Thunder were just like, yeah, your guys are not

going to do that again. And it just, they would, they, and we've been joking about, you know, I know our guy, you mentioned them earlier, our guy World Wide Wob has come up with the Cavalanch thing with the cas when they get on these offensive runs. And it, it felt like the calves were caught in an avalanche. And they just couldn't, they just had no answer for it. It was really, really impressive to watch. Oklahoma City's defense gives up 103 points per 100 possessions. The gap now is 3.9 points to the number two team, which is the Orlando Magic. Well, to highlight that, right? So that's the gap from first to second.

That is the same gap from second all the way to eighth. Yeah. And really, it's the gap all the way to 10th, because it's basically a thing. three-way tie for eighth. So like, it's just staggering how much better they are than everybody else. All right. Well, I look forward to reading this piece that you wrote off this game, McMahon. Oh, listen. I do. You know what? Tarty you guys. And I definitely enjoyed reading a piece from Oom Young Masuq, which we're going to talk about. Olma's going to join us in a minute. We'll be right back here on the Hoop Collective. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay, joining us now.

from Los Angeles. He was in Minneapolis on Wednesday night watching the Warriors beat the Timberwolves. Is our man, Omm Young Wassook? What's up, Omm? What's going on, guys? The Warriors are always interesting. I definitely want to talk about them, but I want to

give special attention. Not to McMahon's story today about the Thunder. Just a typical McMahon story. No reason to pay extra attention to it. But your story that came out earlier this week on Draymond Green, how an indefinite suspension revitalized Draymond Green's career, which is dating back to a year ago when he got that suspension for the Rudy Gobert chokeout.

This is an absolutely fantastic story. We thought we talked about the Warriors. You got a lot of people in here to reveal a lot of things, specifically about what was going on behind the scenes when Draymond was suspended, including talking to people at the league office about these Zoom calls that were going on when he was basically on double secret probation. And I thought it was a,

there's been many Dremont Green pieces written over the years, quite a few of them about dramatic stuff that went down. This was a particularly insightful piece. And I just thought you could tell our listeners about it. Thanks, man. You know, Draymond posted on social media, I want to say maybe like a month and a half ago or two months ago at the end they just said hashtag therapy works. At the start of the season, Drayman looked to me more locked in and also I thought he was moving better. It was clear that he lost a lot of weight. You could see in his face. And what I saw in his game is you could

see him contesting shots and like, you know, running at them and jumping and blocking three-point shooter shots. And I even had the great Statt Williams look it up. And I think he was like, I think they caught it a blow-by contest. And he was like, I think third in the league and blow-by contest. And so I went to Draman and I said, you look more, like, I don't think I've seen you move like this in a long time. And you look really locked in. And I said, let's, I go, let me take a guess. did the therapy that you did during dispension help you to where you are today to come in more locked in? He said 100%. So I said, take me into your therapy session. So we sat down and talked and I think it's the longest time I've ever had. It was an hour. I think the great Ray Ritter clocked it at an hour and 17 minutes. And when I tell you that an hour and 17 minutes, I didn't get in that many questions.

Draymond did a lot of talking, and I think for him it was probably maybe a little therapeutic. I was expecting to talk about he has two therapists and one sports psychologist. And I thought we would go into a lot of those therapy sessions, but it ended up becoming that he was telling me that when he talked to Adam Silver, when he got suspended, he was telling Adam Silver that he was thinking about retiring, not right away, but maybe after the following season, which will be this season. And Adam Silver said, you need to just get away, focus on yourself, take some time off. But I'm going to have you do these lead check-in zooms with a seven-person panel. I mean, this was crazy. Seven people were on this panel. He said he thought he was at like a tribunal or something.

Yeah, I asked him. I said, did it feel like a tribunal? And he was like, yeah, it felt like he was being judged. And the first two times he went in. He didn't want to see anything. It was like Harry Potter in that one. Sorry. Yeah, I mean, like, they're all familiar faces to him.

I mean, Kathy Barron's from the league, Dave Weiss, from the Warriors, was Mike Dunleavy, Rick Sellebrini, David Kelly, their legal counsel, Rich Paul was on it, and Chris Chan, who, you know, and people may not know who she is, but in the NBA, to players, a lot of people, she's very popular players. Three people from the Warriors. Yeah. Tramon's agent, Draymond, two people from the league office,

and one person, one person from the union. Yeah, and John Moran had to do the same thing. He had to go through these calls too. It was Adam Silver's way and the NBA's way of checking in on you to make sure that you are doing whatever they want you to do during that suspension to be able to return to play. You have to prove to them like, I am going to see, in Draymond's case, it was I am going to see my counseling. I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And the first few times Draymond got on, he said he barely even spoke. He didn't want to talk. He was angry. I think Kathy Barron said he was pissed off. He was pissed off at the league. He was pissed off at himself. He was pissed off at everything. And then by the third time he was on, Draymond said for some reason he started talking.

And then all of a sudden, he was like he was talking about this experience and that experience and all seven people were chiming in with their own experiences. And he said, this is effing incredible. He was like, he started feeling that all the therapy he had gone to with his two therapists and all the things he had, talk to them were now playing out on these calls and it was working. He could feel it like he could feel the growth coming. He could feel like he was on this panel of seven successful people in all

different fields and all of them were providing their personal experiences to him about different things or challenging him or saying like, hey, have you tried this or different things? And so he felt like these things were starting to help. So I guess after about he started doing these, So they were about half an hour long. And I think the first couple weeks, he did two weeks. And it went from two a week to like one, maybe a month. Once he returned to play, he played like in 14 straight games. And that was an all-star break.

And Kathy Barron said, look, I think we've done enough. Maybe it was about like six or seven of them. And, you know, you've kind of like fulfilled what you need to do. And Draymond said, oh, hell no, I'm not, I'm not any of these. These are beneficial to me. He called them accountability therapy sessions for him because he said, when you go on to a Zoom with that many successful people, he said, you have to feel like you come out of it unscathed.

I had to go in and show them I've been doing X, Y, and Z. And if I didn't, like he felt like it was a, you know, maybe he had failed or something like that. So he went in looking to not only, you know, get approval from them, but basically like, I've done this and that, but then he was learning from them. And so they continued the sessions. They've done like over a dozen.

The last one was in October. This is well past whatever he was supposed to fulfill and obviously came back from suspension. And he's like, I'm due for another one and I'm going to get the gang back together soon. So he basically said that these sessions that, like I said, John Moran went through were really beneficial for him and helping him kind of get his head in the right place

because he said the night that, like I asked him, I was like, take me back to certain nights of certain episodes. Like I said, where was your head when Jordan Poole happened? And he was like, you know, look, it was training camp. You know, he's like, you know, excuse my language. He pops off in training camp all the time and, you know, things like that happen. And then I was like, what about like Gobert? And he was like, I was ready to play that night.

I was in a great mood. And he was like, and then Clay gets into McDaniels. And he goes, and I got to get into the mix. But he said with Narkich, he said, my head wasn't there that night. I wasn't in the building. He was like, I physically was in the building. I had to be in the building. But mentally, I was.

not there at all. He was like, I was not there that entire night. And I think that it was, you know, emblematic of like whatever he was dealing with at the time. And I also think what was interesting to me is we talked about the stereotype and stigma of going to see a psychologist and seeing therapy. And he said, as you know, NBA teams often have their own team psychiatrist or team therapist. And before every season, they'll have a meeting with the players and they'll say, you know, look, I'm here. I'm available. We could talk about whatever you want.

And Draymond always said he wanted to see therapy, but he was scared. He was scared, you know, he says in his words, scared shitless. He said he kept making himself go up during these team meetings to talk in front of the team and say how he needed therapy and all that. And he thought that that would help him go see a therapist, but then he never would go because he said growing up as a black man in Saginaw, he was like, it was viewed as being weak if you went to go see a therapist. And so for years, he didn't go until finally a couple years ago, he got the nerve to go out because he said he was dealing with something very heavy.

He wouldn't say what that was. And he said, when he finally saw a therapist, the therapist told him, you know, what you're telling me is, what you're going through, I feel like you are grieving whatever this issue was. And he said, what are you talking about? Like nobody died. He was like, no, but what you are dealing with, it doesn't take like a physical death. Sometimes when you are dealing with a situation and you have to move on, you're grieving and you don't know. And that's why you're acting out in certain different ways. And he said that was a major breakthrough for him.

And so that's why he started seeing therapy. And so he would see a therapist maybe once or twice a week. When things get busy, maybe it's once a month. A lot of times on Zoom, because I said, you know, when people hear Draymond Green, the NBA's bad boy, going to see a therapist, I'm sure they picture you up on a green couch with your feet up, you know, and talking your feelings out. And he was like, I've never been on a couch with my feet up. He's like, maybe I need to try it. So you have a quote in here where you asked about how he is this year compared to it last year. And he said, things are totally different. I'm different,

right? I assume as a result of this process. He's seconded the league in technical fouls with eight. and he has he's one of about 10 guys in the league who has multiple flagrants. Not that that's the only measure, but you've been around almost all the Warriors games training camp. You've known him for a long time, Michigan State. Do you think that's true? I think the measure is basically one ejection so far compared to four ejections last year.

And the ejection that he got was for like two quick texts at the end of a game against Memphis where he was watching out a ref and the ref it just didn't want to hear him more and just kicked him out. Besides that, I think he still pushes the envelope for sure. I mean, he'll, you know, like he grabs Zach Eadie's ankle

and that got elevated to a flagrant foul the following day. You know, he's gotten into it with Zach Evey, he's gotten into the other players, he still barks at the refs, and he still feels he gets a different whistle than anybody else. He'll still argue that because he's Drayvon Green, he gets called for things that other players don't.

I think where it's working for him is that he knows where the line is and he hasn't completely crossed it yet. He hasn't had that incident like a Nurkich incident. He hasn't had a Gobert incident. He's faced Gobert three times in the span of like basically two weeks. And outside of a little incidental contact with Gobert's eye, there was nothing else. Like he knew when he went returned to Phoenix, he knew all eyes. would be on him, even though Nurkage did not play in that game, but there was another game

where he saw Jordan Poole in D.C. and they exchanged like little finger taunts. But in each case, he didn't escalate it. He didn't escalate it beyond, he didn't let it boil over. And I think Steve Curran said this. There was a night against Memphis where he got into it was Zach Edie. And he fouled Zach Edy really hard and then grabbed him and then Edie pushed him away. It could have boiled over there. It could have boiled over when Jared Jackson scored. 19 points on him in the second half, to which, you know, that's the kind of stuff that Draymond Green takes personally if someone's scoring on him, let alone his youngster from Michigan State, basically.

And Steve Kerr said, every time it could have boiled over, it didn't. And he didn't cross that line. And that's why we won the game. I think that's where the growth is for Draymond Green so far this year. Not to say that it won't happen this year, Brian. It can. Right. This is a guy that certainly is like him.

technical fouls and is on pace to probably get suspended for a game. I think it's probably a little much to say that it's all solved. One ejection compared to four last year. He had four last year. So he has one ejection so far. I think that is the difference, not the technical fouls. I think it's the ejections and the fights and the basically the extracurricular activities. You haven't seen that so far this year. So, all right. Encourage you to read the story. It was a great story. It was a great story. I just don't know.

It just, I think we're also, we're grading on quite a curve, I think, also. Well, of course. With your Michigan State guy. But you are correct that there have not been the egregious instances this year. I mean, by this time last year, he had had three ejections, basically. So he was obviously dealing with a lot of stuff last year. And this year, he looks to be in a better head's way. And let's also remember.

he's had a variety of tests so far, like I mentioned, but also in a in a slump where they basically went seven and 17 since a 12 and 3 start, you would think at some point Draymond Green would probably lose his mind because of the way they had been playing on this roller coaster. Even Steph Curry has been extremely frustrated and shown signs of that. Draymond Green has yet to be ejected during a time like that. after this. All right, so we talked on the pod earlier this week about Steph's comments the other night in Toronto. He came out in Minnesota attempting to clarify those comments. I think he didn't like the perception that he was just because he didn't, he wasn't pushing the team to like make a major trade in this moment that it was received by

some as that he was okay with being 500 or at that point he was actually below 500. that he had accepted this sort of mediocrity of this team. And he was like, you know, anybody who knows me knows I don't accept that. But he also said, I stand on what I said the other day. It's been a kind of a really, I mean, compared to last season when there was all these suspensions and it was Clay Thompson brooding much of the year, I'm not sure that it's been a more difficult season for the Warriors. but it's definitely been an up and down season. Do you accept the concept that Steph and Dremont and Steve Kerr have said that they don't want them to make a deal if it's only going to marginally improve them? I understand, I think, where they're coming from, which is, and I would say this, if I were Mike Dunleavy Jr., obviously, if not, he's a much smarter individual than I am, but if you only have so many assets, I'm holding them.

for whenever a true superstar that is a franchise altering superstar becomes available to take that swing. Ding, ding, ding. If you go and give up some of these assets now for a Nikola Vucevic, a Jimmy Butler, which I don't think, I don't think there's interest in Butler. But if they were to do that, you can't take a swing then if things go bad in Milwaukee with Janus this summer. And that is why you have to hold on to your assets to make a run at a guy like that if he becomes available. Because I think Golden State is uniquely positioned for someone like Janus because of Deft's friendship with Janice and Janice having kind of like hinted in the past that, you know, the bay might be intriguing to him with the warriors. You got to then hold on to your assets for that.

Also, I think, look, Jonathan Kaminga, he's hurt right now. But he just showed just enough in those six games. prior to getting hurt, enough where he scored 34 in consecutive games that Steve Kerr said, it looks like he's turning the corner and understanding how to play with Draymond and step on the floor and not really kind of being this guy that just goes to his bag and gets his points, but scoring within the flow of the Golden State offense that you might want to hang on to that and see where it goes. So I think what they're going to do is they're going to wait to the trade deadline, see if a guy like Nikola Vucevic and the price goes down, where,

you might be able to get him for just expiring contracts or something like that, not have to give up a lot of picks or you know your three first round picks you can trade, certainly hold on to your young assets. I think that's what he means. I think that's what he, Steve Kerr and Draymond Greening, that you don't go ahead and give the farm up for basically someone that is not quite on that superstar level that is going to make you guys immediately contend for championship or championships down the road. It's what you said earlier, Oam.

It's very simple. The Warriors are not good enough right now to win a title. The way they're going to be good enough to compete for a title is if they get a player that's better than Steph Curry. And the only way they're going to do that is if they save their ammunition for when the moment arrives that such a player becomes available. And until then, they're going to try to, like you said, they're going to try to make more moves like the Dennis Shooter move. I'm sure they'll try to find ways to improve before the trade deadline with maybe some second round picks and some of the expiring. contracts they have, but they're not going to fire any of these big chips they've got into the pot unless there's somebody that's really going to make a difference. And as of now, it does not

seem like that player is going to become available. And as you know, you've been around them all the time. With the way they're playing, it's very easy to look at it and say, there's no point in trying to make a, you know, marginal upgrade or a, you know, middling upgrade for any real cause. because the team has shown it's not worth investing that kind of capital in right now. Right. It does like they are going to try to improve the team. It is just they're not going to take a massive swing before this trade deadline. I actually sat down with Steph for a story I'm doing for Monday,

kind of about like the state of the championship window before, you know, three weeks before the trade deadline as they faced the Boston Celtics. Obviously the team they beat two years ago for championship. And Steph and I talked about like, for example, I found it interesting that the Warriors, I know this is probably their MO, they've only made one significant trade at the trade deadline in the Curry era. And that was to get Andrew Wiggins back in, I think, 2020 when Steph was hurt. The other trade they made was to trade away James Wiseman and a deal that brought back Gary Payton. So that was like not a significant trade.

But really, though. The Wiggins was a trade was an asset acquisition trade, not a load up for the stretch. It was to get the pick. they took on Wiggins, which ended up becoming Kaminga. Right. And the pick ended up, and Wiggins ended up being a surprisingly great fit for them and helping them win their championship. But Wiggins was the tax that they paid to get the pick.

Yeah, so basically, I mean, you know, they don't make any moves historically in the Steph Curry era during the trade done line. They tend to do it in the summertime and he understands that. But I thought the one thing he said to me was, listen, you know, He doesn't want to basically look like he's a guy that's calling Dunleavy saying, get me this, give me this, give me this, give me this. That's not really his persona anyways. He basically chimes in when he's asked if there's something imminent and they run it by him.

But he was like, my thing is as long as they're showing the type of effort that I show on the court, which is like in order trying to improve the team, I can live with whatever happens. And so I think like they're trying, obviously I think they were being diplomatic with saying, you know, we got, we got a responsibility to the future of the franchise. And I think people took that as in they're waving the white flag. And Steve Kurt said by no means are we waving the white flag. We are definitely trying to win with Steph Curry and get him some help. It just may not come at the trade deadline. That's all. Yeah, I don't think anybody realistically said that. I think everybody said realistically what we just said, which is that like if you just

having a clear-eyed look at the Warriors, there are not players available that can make them. a championship level team. And if the goal is championship level team or not, it's very easy to say, we're going to wait to see if that player comes along. Also, the Warriors franchise has always been aggressive with Steph Curry. They've made mistakes like everybody, but they have made major acquisitions, Kevin Durant being grade A example. They have made a great-a example. They have made Progressive trades, they have spent enormous sums of money. They have gotten very creative with draft picks, dating all the way back to they did one of the first modern salary dump trades to acquire Andre Guadala. So the track record for Joe Lacob and Peter Goober's ownership is they are not going to leave Stones unturned with Steph.

they may not have this season work out like they wanted to. And by the way, they've raised a trophy four times. They've gone to the finals, what, six times? Six times, yeah. And they've had some years where it's gone south. And they've had bad years. This may end up being the latter. But it's not because they were derelict in trying to surround stuff.

So, you know, the track record matters. it was just a refreshing thing honestly i thought i was refreshing for step to be so honest and um i don't want him to not be honest i want him to be honest so but i think that's why he said like for anybody that thinks that i'm okay with being on an average team is insane you know i think that's where the clarification came but yeah i mean again i think if there's a deal to be made that can improve this team along the lines of a of a a shooter type, another one type of that, I think they're going to make it. Could they get like a Nicola Vusovic? It would definitely help. I think that if the price is right.

But like outside of that, save your assets for a massive swing. If something becomes available next summer. And by the way, if they make a trade like the Vosovic trade, that gives them, especially if they send out expiring money, right? If you look at any moves you're going to try to make this summer, you need to have money to send out in trades. and Vucevic that only gives them a shooter at the five, which as you know, they're playing all these guys that can't shoot. Yeah. He also gives them $20 million in expiring money they can use this summer to potentially do something in a deal.

So there are, it does give them optionality in a variety of ways. But yeah, like, I mean, look, to your point about honesty, go back to the fall. One of my favorite quotes in recent memory was Steph saying we could be a relevant team, right? It's like, Steph is one of the smartest guys in the league. he's very aware of where they're at. And again, that's why this all comes back to, where I'm sitting in Miami, the Warriors and the Heat have a very similar track record in that they are always looking for the next big fish to come along, right?

And for the Warriors, if they're going to get back to being the team they want to be, they're going to have to find that guy. And sacrificing chips now, like you said, you said it perfectly before. They sacrifice chips now, they're not going to be in position to do that in six months or a year or whatever. and to really have one more true bite at the apple, especially with the way Oklahoma City looks for the next few years, especially with the way the Celtics and the Cavs, some of these other teams look and the Knicks that are lined up for a while.

You got to have the ability to really go get a difference-making player. Bontas, I thought you were to say your favorite quote from training camp would have been the quote that I loved, which was Draymond telling me that when I asked him about them going after marketing and Paul George and were you okay with not getting them, he was like, yeah, he's like, because it could have been trashed, trash. He's like, we don't know how the marketing thing would it turn out? How are we supposed to know? It could have been trash. I forgot about that one. That was awesome. Dremon, whatever else you

want to say about Dremon, he's always good for a great quote, as he was in your story. All right, Ulm, great job. Thank you very much for coming on with us, and we'll talk to you soon. Anytime. Thanks for having me, guys. Okay, thank you very much, Olm Young Masuk. Mousouk. Thank you very much, Tim McMahon, for pooling double duty. Thank you to Bontems. Thank you to Jackson, our producer for staying up late. Thank you for putting up with my voice. Hopefully by the next

time we talk on Monday's podcast, I will be doing better. And thank you for watching, listening to the Houp Collective. We'll talk to you soon. Adios amigos.