Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - The 2 way race for MVP between Jokic and SGA. Is OKC proving they are the best in the West ? Can the Wolves sneak into the playoffs ?

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk about the series between the Denver Nuggets and the Oklahoma City Thunder. The serious issues the Dallas Mavericks are suffering because of injuries. The Permanent Substitution move to stop Nikola Jokic. The competition for MVP is a 2 way race. The guys discuss who has an edge.  Plus we preview OKC vs Celtics. The chances of the Timberwolves to make the playoffs. And how the Miami Heat trading Jimmy Butler was a disaster for the Heat. Plus a new member to the hoop collective interrupts the show. 0:20 Intro 2:10  Dallas Mavericks personal issues 05:06 Nuggets vs Thunder rematch 06:32 The  new member to the hoop collective interrupts the show. 8:50 The Race for MVP between Nikola Jokic and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander 16:44 The Permanent Substitution move to stop Nikola Jokic. 22:11 Potential Finals Preview Celtics vs Thunder 34:14 can the Minnesota Timberwolves sneak into the playoffs ? 39:46 The struggles of the Miami Heat since the Jimmy Butler trade 46:30 What should the Bontemps Pigeon be named ? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome with the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we are doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining me from New York City, where he saw the Brooklyn Nets beat the Los Angeles Lakers in a game that was probably disappointing for both sides in some ways.

I would say in many ways. Yeah, that tanking race ain't going to win itself. Joining us from Dallas, Texas. Hello. joining us from Dallas, Texas, where he's on a short layover between Oklahoma City and Houston. He was at the Thunders, well, I guess I should say the Nuggets. Bounceback victory against the Thunder on Monday night is Ban McMan. Howdy, partners, listen, I thought that scene in Brooklyn last night was a brilliant strategy by the Lakers.

They do not want Oklahoma City to get the seventh overall pick, that Brooklyn get a win. you know, is that Brooklyn Philly Neck and Neck thing. The top Sixers are now in sixth in the lottery standing. So, you know, the Lakers out smart in the competition once again. And Wendy, I am confused by your setup, though,

because it's afternoon and we've got a night scene there. So I don't know what's going on. It's always cool. Why I'm always at, it's always chill. It's always chill here, L.A. nights. By the way, you had a story on Sunday. I just want to talk about this real briefly, that the Mavericks finished the game on Sunday with seven healthy players,

which, you know. Yeah, two of whom were on minutes restrictions and hit them in the fourth quarter. So Kessler Edwards, who balked heads with Dwight Powell, Dwight goes in the back and gets stitches on his forehead. He looks like Herman Munster, although we didn't know that was mentioned it. And then they didn't teach Munster's classes at Stanford, I guess. And then Kessler Edwards, he actually didn't have to get stitches. he basically just had to get like his above his orbital bone glued back together.

So he comes straight from the walker, a big old bandage over his left eye, passes the bench, goes to the scorers table, checks in the game. That was the last, it was a 605 left in the game. It was a last substitution Jason Kidd made. It was the last substitution that he could make if he was going to follow the minutes restrictions of Caleb Martin and Dante X-M. Well, we're just happy to see Caleb Martin in a matter. jersey. The crazy thing about that story, I think Bobby Marks helped you with this, even if the Mavericks

wanted to sign another player to help them through this ridiculous injury situation, which is just compounded by, you know, it's obviously the headline players with AD and Kyrie, but they have all kinds of role players out. They're not even allowed to sign anybody because they don't have any money left. No, they have, they're like 51 grand away from the first April. They can't go over the first apron, you know, by rule. A 10-day contract is $119,000 and change. This is what Moses Brown averaged 18 and 10 in his last two games on his 10-day with the Mavericks, and they couldn't keep them.

They would have loved to. They literally could not keep the guy. Now, you mentioned, obviously, it's the stars. It's Kyrie. It's AD. PJ Washington has been in and he's now out again for a while with an ankle injury. Clay Thompson is the owner, Daniel Gafford, Derek Kleber the second. Clay Thompson's the only healthy guy among their top six players.

Fellas, they've got two of their two-way guys that are hurt now. Kai Jones played a game for the Mavericks after Siren and two-way has been out since with a strained quad. Brandon Williams had a career high 31 points on a two-way deal. And they're lost to Memphis and was playing well again, hamstring tightness. That's why he wasn't available to the rest of that game. I mean, it is. And then, you know, they started with nine. Williams is out.

It's eight. And then freaking Dwight Powell and Kessler-Irard's bonked heads chasing a rebound. Edwards goes down. Dwight's got blood trickling from his forehead. They did manage, they managed to field eight players, which is the league minimum for last night's game in San Antonio, which they also managed to win that game. Well, San Antonio knows the mission at this point. All right. All that is interesting.

Let's focus on the game that you were at, where one of the more interesting things that happened actually happened at the scorers table, but we'll get to that in a few minutes. I got to say one of the amazing stats of the NBA season is that the Denver Nuggets are 12 and 1 on the second nights of back-to-backs. This one, McMahon, I think they were maybe even planning on punting

because you wrote about this. But they were planning on punting it, and Yokic didn't let him. And then we saw really an interesting game that we weren't expecting on Monday night. Yeah. Michael Ballone tried to talk Joker in a signal. And, you know, he texts him Sunday night

because it was a Sunday afternoon game, so he texts him, and he's spelled out like, look, your minutes, and I forgot the exact numbers, but they're like 38, 39, 45, 41. This is the third game in four nights. Joker's been dealing with a sore ankle. His right elbow, his shooting elbows, all discolored and bruised right now. I mean, he had a rough shooting.

I was two of ten from three-point range Sunday because his elbow was killer. I mean, it's like, dude, it's not a rest game. Like, you're banged up. Like, let's take this one off. And Joker's reply was hell no. So, you know, they listened to his question, but there really wasn't any question after that. Joker was going to play. Jamal Murray, who also lit it up last night,

it was questionable, but, you know, he planned up playing. Aaron Gordon's going to be out. They're not sure for how long that calf is acting up again, which is not good, dude. Obviously, it's a concern. But, uh, is there an owl? Is there a dove that's in this room? I think there's, uh,

there's a pigeon outside the window in my apartment is what's going on. That pigeon is not like McMahon. Okay. I'm trying to like discuss nuggets. I'm being like, oh, what the hell is going on?

This window, here, hold on. This window is open. I didn't realize it was open. Calli likes that one. That is absolutely staying in the podcast. I don't care what anybody says. There we go. So,

Joker plays. And by the way, it was a close game until a one. wasn't on Sunday. The SGA and really Jalen Williams and the Thunder blew their doors off in the final few minutes end up being a 24 point win. Joker plays and dude, I mean, he was absolutely dominant. He only took two threes because he said like the elbow has heard him so it had to be close to the rim. Went one for two. The miss was a he from the back court, which he leads

the league in those shots by the way. It's costing him the three point percentage title. But dude was 15 of 20 from the floor. What was it like 35, 18, 8 assists. I mean, just an absolutely dominant performance. And naturally, Joker versus SGA. They're coming to get him now. He is definitely in New York City. I was going to say, the only thing you hear more than Pigeons in New York is in New York.

I can't help the ambient noise in New York City. Anyways, naturally Joker versus SGA, it leads to an MVP discussion post game. And, you know, you guys have seen the quotes. I thought both Joker and Michael Malone were, like, pitch perfect with the way that they handled the discussion. I hate how toxic MVP discussions have become in recent years. Joker's not been through no fault of his own, I'll say, has been part of that. But, you know, Joker says, hey, I'm playing the best basketball for my life. If that's not enough, it's not enough.

that qualifies as, I mean, maybe I can't chapter and verse Yokic quotes for the last five years. If it's not the most, the closest he's ever come to, you know, his version of lobbying, it's got to be there. I mean, you know. It's in the top five for sure. It was very much the Yokic, you know, persona because he was like, I'm playing the best basketball of my life. If that's enough, it's enough. If it's not, it's not, which is kind of his way of doing it.

He said if it's not, the guy deserves it talking about SGA, and he's amazing. But and then Malone, you know, Malone lobbied hard for his guy. And the thing about Michael Malone is he comes prepared. You know, he's on point. He lobbied, he lobbied hard for his guy while being extremely respectful and not only respectful, but like basically saying, hey, SGA is also a legitimate, deserving MVP candidate. But he says if you put player A and player B and you don't know which ones won three MVP's before, you're going to go with with Joker and says, if not, you're full of her.

I did ask if you do those stats include team record? And he was quick with it. He says, you know, if you want to make that case basically, so be it. But they remind of people, but one time Joker didn't win MVP over the last four years, the Nuggets were the number one seed in the weather from conference. year so he he came prepared man he came ready i i remember when um when hardin was going up against i think it was westbrook um for uh the mvp darrell mori like kind of went out like on a um on a lobbying tour and i remember one time i happened to be in new york and i did espn radio um and like i did it

in the studio and then i was going to the airport and i was and i literally had done a full day of tv and i did this radio show and I'm done and I'm in the bathroom changing out of my suit. And I had, I think I had said before I was favoring Westbrook. And the producer stuck his head into the, into the, into the bathroom. And he goes, hey, Darryl Morey is on with us to the next segment. He was on hold and he heard you debating that do you thought Westbrook should win and he wants to debate you. Can you come back on this next segment? So like everybody, you know, my Mike, Michael Malone's, you know, talking points were very solid, but, you know, nothing like the tour that Darrell went on. But I think, Bonteps, I think we should have a pact.

And the pact should be that as we talk about this, we talked about this in the last pod, but as we talk about the MVP over the next couple of weeks, we're not going to drag down either player. No. At least in my realm. we're not going to say, well, you know, Yokic this, or well, when SGA gets double-teamed, which is what the nuggets did to him down to touch of this game, well, I'm just not going to allow it in my sphere. I'll real quick point on that,

just a tiny little double-team point. Yes, that's the thing the Thunder had to figure out. Also, they certainly would help matters if Jalen Williams, J-Dubb, was on the floor and second. Of course. but dude there are no holes in either of these guys cases they are both phenomenal two-way players joker is joker's defense of analytics are top of the charts it's not in the traditional way you think of the center impacting defense but joker has like there's no holes in this

the guy's averaging a triple double and making a major defense of impact he's a tremendous leader there's no holes there uh shay leading the league and scoring for a team that has the best point differential in NBA history, major contributor to the number one defense link, there's no holes in either case. And that's what I really appreciated about Malone's point is don't make it Nicola versus SGA. You know, like vote for one or the other,

but you don't have to knock one guy to vote for the other guy. All right, Bontemps, you're the king of the MVP projections. I am. Oh, my God. What a day. What a day on the effort? side. What a day. Hey, wait till, well, I'm not going to say. Go ahead. Go ahead, Montemps. I mean, what is the, what is the question? Who's going to win MVP? I was going to say,

you're the, the, uh, the guru of the MVP prognostication. I am. I just don't really know where to go with that other than to say that, uh, a couple weeks ago in the last drop hole, Jay, uh, Jay was pretty clearly ahead, though not unanimously so. And we will see what happens in three weeks or so. And we do the final straw poll a couple weeks out before the end of the season. But I still think he's probably going to win. It's as great as Yokic has been. It's going to be hard for him to win a fourth in five years.

And if there's a tie, tie is usually going to go to the guy who hasn't won. I think you just look at the history of the award that tends to be. Especially if that guy who hasn't won has a better record. Well, yeah, there's two potential types of. One, if it's even, you're probably going to go with the guy who hasn't won, as Malone acknowledged, essentially. And then two, if you can't decide which one, you're probably going to go with a guy who has a double figure

game's lead in the complex dynamics. Yeah, and also, like the other thing that has to be acknowledged, too, is that the criterion for this award changes every year. There isn't a set determination of who should win and how they should win and what the things are to rank in terms of who wins the award or what should determine who wins the award, which is why it is such an interesting debate every year and why it does engender so much discussion throughout the season

because everybody can have their own spin. on what should matter. And it's why, you know, Russell Westbrook could average a triple double and finish with the six or seven seed in the West and win MVP. And other years, somebody can be the best player on a 65 win team like Jason Tatum last year and finished fifth.

Like, you know, it's all, it's a different race every year. I am, as you guys said earlier, just very glad that we're looking at a situation where it seems like for the month ago in the regular season, and it isn't going to become a very toxic discussion over how this should go and what it should look like. Hopefully I said it looks like that. I wouldn't make any assumptions there. But the cause of the toxic.

It already was very toxic by this time in the past. And it is not at all this year. So I'm sure it will become a more lively debate over the next few weeks. but it was already ugly by now before. And it's not. If people were hoping that this back to back where the teams played two games in a whatever was 36-hour span

in Oklahoma City would kind of allow voters to reach a conclusion, it didn't happen because they split. In that game, the Nuggets had one of their best shooting games in the last 40 years. And like, you know, you don't take it away from them. did it against the league's top defense. I don't know if it's replicatable.

I know Yokic, average, a triple-double is replicatable, but, you know, in terms of the outcome. One more thing before we go. Something interesting happened in this game, McMahon. First off, Mark Dagenal, the Thunder coach, he was annoyed with the officials early in the game, even though their karma was depleted on Sunday when Chet Holmgren should have fouled that with 10 minutes to go. They need another, like, month of karma, but whatever.

Because he doesn't like how when the... when there's a turnover or there's a change of possession, Yokic a lot of times gets the ball very fast from the official and wants to throw it way down court. He wants to take advantage. He's been doing this for years. Mark Dagenal has clearly complained about this. And when the referees weren't,

who was already annoyed with, he got tech in the first half of this game. By the way, Daganaut for like the first four years on the sidelines, he had something like seven technicals. I think he's got like five or six this year. He is definitely. amped. He's definitely

stretching his wings into the complaining about officials. And as he pointed out pregame, again, the Thunder have the largest free throw differential negatively in the league. Checkmark, got it. All right. What did Dagonal do

to slow Yokich down? He pulled a move that he referred to as a permanent sub. And what he did was he had Dylan Jones, a rookie who I believe he's probably played more in G-League than the NBA this season.

This is total rookie duty. This is like akin to getting the donuts and having the princess backpack. Yeah. He said, go stand in the scores table like you're going to check in, but you're not actually going to check in. We're going to pull you back and we're just going to leave you at the scores table. That way, every time that there's a change of possession, if there is this situation where Joker's trying to get the ball to fast break off of a change,

you know, an out of bounds, or, you know, like you said, an inbound situation, the rest have to acknowledge the guy has the scores table. Okay, you check it in. Oh, wait, you're not. Okay. And it's just a way to delay Joker's inbound tactics. Joker is hilarious in that he goes, he's so creative and aggressive in looking for every single tiny little margin to affect winning. And the inbound stuff is perfect because you've got this situation. But then give the nuggets a six or eight point lead. And the man is the best in the league at bleeding the clock. Oh, oops, the ball got away before I could inbound it out for the other team scored. He said last year there was one, he was very proud. He said there was one time last year where he took 25 seconds. He managed to

to lead 25 seconds about the clock in that situation late in the game. The NBA actually cracked down and they did a league wide. But when they met with the Nuggets, I think it was Monty McCutcheon. It was one of the guys from the league office, one of the rest of the league office. You know, they meet with every team preseason. They met with the nuggets in Abu Dhabian and they bring this up. And Joker apparently had, well, what about this scenario? What about that scenario?

He had like six questions basically trying to figure out, okay, how can, not legally waste time when we're protecting a lead in the fourth quarter. So that just tells you the guy looks for every single tiny little margin. So what happened is the referees looked over and said, yeah, said Dylan Jones come in the game. Then they were like, oh, actually, we're not going to put him in. We changed our mind. Okay. And they happened again, they looked over and Dylan Jones was again, being the permanent

sub. I'm like, okay, come in the game. And they was like, actually, we're not going to put him in. And then they called delay a game. And so I suspect that there could be guidance coming from the legal office saying, don't do that anymore. I don't even think there's going to be a need for guidance because it's not, it's just,

because I checked on it a little bit. And I mean, you can't, you, you see teams trying to have substitutions during games and the rest will say, no, you can't do it. And it's because you have to be,

like, over there ready to go. You can't, like, have the ball out of, go out of bounds and then say, oh, we're going to bring somebody in and have to get up off the bench and run over

there. But you can maybe have a guy stand there and say, hey, we're going to wait till the next day. dead ball to do this, but you can't, like, you're not allowed to have somebody just chill there. So he did it. You can change your mind. You can't change your mind over and over again.

Hence the, I know, hence the name that the Dagonal gave it, permanent sub. Yes. That's now, Dylan Jones. They should change on the roster. His position should say, P.S. Permanent sub. Yeah. But, you know, he made his point.

He made his point. they called delay a game and I think it was handled exactly how it should have been. And also, if you watch the two minutes he was standing there, there were like four shooting fouls and two minutes anyway. So it didn't even really do anything to accomplish. But it was about making a point. And so much of these little post-game comments, pre-game comments, stuff like this, these are coaches rather, planting seeds with reps because look,

there's a pretty good chance that these teams meet again, likely in the Western Conference. Should be the West Finals. We got a big game coming up on Wednesday night on ESPN. Potential finals preview, not that we're going to make any assumptions or disclude any teams or insult any fan bases. The Thunder are visiting the Celtics. Key for this game will be the injury report, which we don't know now. Jalen Williams hurt his hip Monday, again, the game against a Nuggets. we'll see. And, you know, when Jalen Williams is out, it impacts them significantly, as Bontems

has talked about throughout the season. Also, before we talk about this game, Bontemps, you had a story about, you know, Chris Sphors-Incas has missed six games with an illness, which they said was non-COVID. And he shed a little bit of light on it, but this was a little bit rattling the story that you wrote this week. I mean, I wouldn't say he shed much light on it at all. He just said that he has a viral illness that they haven't been able to fully figure out what it is. And I mean, he's been around the team. He's been on the bench during games. So obviously it's a bit of a strange situation, but more than anything, you know, we've all spent time around Chris Staps.

He's a great guy and just hope that he's able to get healthy and be back on the court soon, which, you know, it's, Hopefully, hopefully that happens sometimes here in the near future, but certainly was unsettling to see that tweet Monday night laying out that he's got this illness that they can't figure out. And, you know, it's not like, it's not like the Celtics don't have access to all sorts of health care, high-level medical people. So, yeah, so, you know, certainly it's, you know, it's unsettling,

but hopefully he's, in fact, he's back on the men, back out there. One of the biggest perks of being an NBA player is health care. You know, you can get an MRI that night. You know, you get injured, you can get an MRI. It's like the whole Karras Levert thing when he found out he had cancer when he got traded, right? Like you just do get checked out more than just about anybody on the planet. So hopefully, like I said, most important thing is hopefully,

um, hopefully Chris Stapps is healthy soon and back on the court. Well, so the Celtics have had this series of, uh, of, uh, of 10. test games at home over the last couple of weeks. The calves came in. The Cavs got them. The Lakers came in. They got the Lakers. Now the Thunder come in. And so, you know, the Celtics remain the odds-on favorite. They've looked impressive with periods of going cold and losing focus. But this game probably has more skin in it for the Thunder because the Celtics, you know, they've lost like a dozen games at home this year, especially without Jalen Williams. Like if the Celtics win, okay, if the Celtics lose, okay, it doesn't change their position.

But a lot of people are, you know, when I say a lot of people, I mean, you know, people in the league are questioning, you know, can the Thunder win 16 games? Because the Thunder win 12 playoff games. And so, you know, interesting that the Thunder are coming off a loss. I think that might actually maybe get them a little bit more on edge, you know, because if they lose two and a row, then it's like, oh my gosh, this is why people don't respect the thunder. But, you know, not, it doesn't mean everything, but it doesn't mean nothing, McMahon. Yeah, and I think more than anything, it's, it's, the thunder are still early in the learning process about themselves, about how teams are going to defend them.

You know, Shay last night talked about, okay, listen, Minnesota got us with this, you know, trapping thing when the wolves pulled off that insane comeback down the stretch, you know, kind of basically committing two to Shane, forcing the ball out of his hands. The nuggets, while the Thunder scored 127 points, I mean, 140 that they allowed was the primary reason he lost the game, but especially in that second half and in the fourth quarter when Shay only took two shots, the nuggets were able to force the ball out of his hands. The Thunder weren't able to make them pay for that again. The fact that Jaylon Williams, wasn't on the floor as part of that.

But the Thunder have to be able to, it's good for them to see these things. That's what, what Shay was emphasizing last time because they know they're going to see those sort of things in the playoffs. And so these tests are good experience for a team that, you know, this group, not, you know, Hart and Stein and Caruso weren't there, but the same core of the team, they only have two games or two series of playoffs. experience. So, you know, that's why, and that's why people doubt them.

It's not because they don't think that the thunder are talented or that they're, you know, that the roster has holes in or anything like that. But they're a young team that hasn't done it yet. And those teams will always be doubted until they prove without a shadow of the doubt that, uh, that they're a championship team. Well, people do doubt the offense. Yeah. Well, as you, you've talked about this, bontems.

Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, people do wonder if they're good enough offensively to win. I mean, the other thing about that game Monday night is, I mean, we've talked about it a bunch, but, I mean, Denver's shooting numbers in this game are insane. I mean, shot 60% from the field, shot 56% from 3, 18 for 32. They had 32 assists, 12 turnovers. Thunder obviously turned the teams over as much as anybody in the league. You know, and one of the biggest stories in the whole league over the last two, three months has been the return of, you know, All-Star caliber, Jamal Murray, and the guy, you know, had 34 and 6 and was the team best plus 14 in the game and was 11 for 22 and 40 minutes.

And like, if he's playing like that with Yokic, Denver can beat anybody. And, you know, that, you know, that's the thing to watch there. But yeah, I mean, their defense, the Thunder defense has been subpar since the break. There's been some opponent shooting luck that's factored into that. But I also don't think, to your point, Brian, if they lose the second night of a back-to-back to the same Denver team, they beat the day before, and then they lose on the road to the Celtics without Jaylon Williams, depending on if he's able to play or not, whether he plays or not, it'd be pretty silly if people start going, oh, the thunder are vulnerable because they lost those two.

But they will. We know that. Well, yes, and I will continue to point out that Oklahoma City still has the best point differential in NBA history. So, like, acting life, you know, this is the week one seed is pretty, it's a pretty insane take. Well, one of our producers here, we were talking about this very topic this week here in L.A. And one of our producers, one of the show producers on NBA Today, he was like, hey, I hate to just, you know, paraphrase Rick Flair. But to be the man, you got to beat the man. And that's very basic analysis.

that is the way people in the NBA, you know, a lot of times players look at it. They respect, they tend to pay respect to people and teams for too long after they've won. That sometimes happens. And then they tend to under respect teams or players that haven't necessarily, you know, gotten their official bona fides. And that is something that the Thunder are dealing with. And it's also something that Thunder don't care about. They have routinely made that clear.

They don't care what people's opinion is of, them. That is a bit of a mechanism to keep pressure off of you. I talked about this when I was there for Media Day, how nobody dared. They were the returning number one seat in the Western Conference. They went out and acquired Alex Caruso and signed Isaiah Hartenstein, you know, two of the more impactful moves of the Western Conference contenders, and nobody would bring up the word title or championship or any variation of it. Because I think that, you know, it's, more convenient for them not to have to deal with the expectation. That's going to come to whether you try to push it off or not,

and that's going to be a part of the Thunder's life going forward here, and it'll be part of how they approach this game in Boston. You know, if you've got the best, you know, differential in the history of the NBA, then come in and beat the champs, Buccoes. You know, I mean, that's the kind of the way people look at it. But at the same time, that's just the reality. The reality is they're the youngest team in the league that hasn't won at a high level yet, and so therefore they're, they're disrespected.

And that's the way it is. And look, Sam Presti, his whole thing of, you know, we haven't finished our breakfast yet before last season was absolutely a way to kind of downplay expectations and hold on. You know, this is still a team that's in a rebuild and all that stuff. And then they were the number one seed. And Shay was the MVP runner up. And there's no way that you're not going to have expectations with that group moving forward. you know, then this year they're going to win 60 whatever games. I mean, so the thunder are in and will be for the foreseeable future, you know,

however long this window is. And typically today's NBA, the three to five year windows, I think the thunder are set up to have a longer window than that of championship or disappointment. I won't say bus, championship or disappointment type of seasons. That's the reality. That doesn't mean that the thunder have to live in it in a daily basis. And I wrote a story this year about the culture of the thunder is they embrace the boring. And it's a strength. They live in the, you know, let's get all the little details right.

Let's do all the little things on a day-to-day basis to help us get better and focus on that and not these grandiose, you know, big picture discussions that Yahoo's like us are having on ESPN. Well, look, the last thing the thunder want. is, I shouldn't say, something that they wouldn't necessarily want to have to deal with is if they don't win the title this year, the questions that would like, should they trade all these draft picks for star player X? Sure. You know. I think Tim put it well.

Tim put it well. They're trying to, they're trying to deal with championship expectations without it overwhelming them, which is what it is. I mean, it is a championship or bust season from the standpoint that, If you're this good, you, if it is a disappointment and there isn't a like, well, it's great if they got to the finals, but, you know, they'll be back. I mean, the last Thunder team is proof that you aren't necessarily going to get back if you don't get, if you get there and lose, right? And that's not to say, it's different than saying it's a failure if they don't win, because

I don't, I don't think it's a failure per se. But like, there isn't another outcome that you can look at and say it is a, success either. Like if you have the best point difference of all time, if you have the possible MVP of the league on your team, you should be, your only goal should be to win the title, not to, you know, get to the finals and gosh, shucks will be back. Like, you just don't know if you will be back. But at the same time, if you're a team like the Thunder, there's no other way to approach the season than to try to minimize all that stuff as much as possible and not have it drown out, you know, drown your team in noise and expectations. And that's where the fact that,

you know, is we've talked about all season. The fact that their star player is so cool, calm and collected all the time, I think really helps. And, you know, the coach, Mark Daniel, it's the same way. Like, they operate on a very low wavelength all the time. And, you know, your team feeds off that. And I think it's played a big part. And despite the fact that the thunder are a young them embracing the expectations as they have and rolling through the season like they have. Okay. Also on Wednesday night, we've got an interesting game with the Timberwolves visiting the Nuggets. No Aaron Gordon going to be in that game.

He's going to get an MRI, probably going to miss some time. He missed about three weeks each time he previously had the calf injury. Hopefully this one isn't as bad. But so much calf injury talked this year. Right. This is more interesting because of the wolves who are hot. Now, on one hand, I will point out that the wolves have won five in a row. They are in seventh place right now, and they're looking at a bunch of teams in front of them

that are dealing with injury problems. I don't know if they're going to be able to catch any of them, but you know, you look at the, you know, not catching the thunder, obviously, but if you look at the contenders in the West, the thunder just lost Jalen Williams, the Nuggets just lost Aaron Gordon, the Lakers just lost Learron. The Grizzlies are without Jaron Jackson. The Rockets had been without Fred Van Lee for a while, now without Amen Thompson.

But having said that, the wolves have won five in a row. Now, the wins are not going to go to Springfield. Their five wins are against Phoenix, which continues to lose games, despite having good players playing well. It's fascinating in a weird way. Phoenix 76ers, Charlotte, Miami, who's been in a real rut, we'll talk about in the second, in San Antonio. That's the five-game win streak.

They play in Denver. And then they have a five-game homestand, which concludes with a baseball series with the Pelicans. So, in fact, I think the among all the Western teams, because the West teams' strength of schedule is inherently going to be harder. Well, I've got this, I've got this right here. Okay. The four easiest schedules in the league down the stretch are Toronto, Philly, Atlanta, and Minnesota. Right. And Minnesota is the only West team in the top 13 in strength of schedule.

There he go. Yeah. So of these teams that are all fighting for playing positions and trying to avoid the play in, Minnesota is playing well. They're healthy for the first time in a while. Devinchenzo is starting to show some life what they expected to get him before he had that toe injury. And their schedule is favorable.

So, Bontemps, Minnesota, I don't know about winning in Denver. but that would sort of verify their win streak. And, you know, after a rough go of it, when all those guys got hurt, Gobert was out for a while. Yeah. They've got a chance here to make up some ground. Yeah, I mean, look, if we want to just get down to brass tax on it, right? Golden State is won nine to ten.

Hotest team in the league is in six. There are one loss ahead. Then Houston's four losses ahead. Memphis is five. In Denver and L.A. are six. I mean, if we want, like in all those teams, like we just talked about Denver's schedules, fairly easy. They're the second easiest west schedule. But the Lakers have the hardest schedule.

Memphis has the fifth hardest schedule. So if they want to catch any of these teams, I think realistically, they've got to go 14 and 3, 13 and 4. I mean, right now they're at 36 wins. They've got to get to 49 or 50 wins. I mean, if they go 14 and 3 against the schedule, which isn't impossible, it's a very easy schedule, you know, Then you get to 50 wins. The Lakers go 8 and 11 down the stretch, or I should say 10 and 11 or down the stretch. They're at 50 wins.

So like it's not impossible for Minnesota to really get up that high. But after some of these games, they've kicked away lately, including losing to the jazz right before this five game win streak. They've got an opportunity to make up a lot of ground in a hurry, but they've got to start doing it now and really take advantage of the schedule and these injuries in front. Yeah, and they can't get him more T's because, you know, he's already been suspended for once, which was that loss to Utah. And when you mentioned him getting health, that I would say maybe most prominently included getting Julius Randall back.

Right. He missed him off. He missed the whole month of February with his groin injury. And we can nitpick the quality of competition, but they won their last five games that he played before the groin injury. They've won the first five. games that he's played since then. So with Julius Randall in the lineup, which, you know, it's been a season long kind of

figure out the fit type of situation. But with Randall in the lineup, they've won 10 straight games. So, you know, it's not nothing. Yeah, well, that's relevant to keep her eye on. The difficulty and tightness of the Western Conference is, you know, once again, going to be a huge factor in the playoffs. As one of the Western Conference coaches said to me, I think I said this on the pod recently or on TV. They said, you know, the thunder out ahead of everybody, but all the

rest of us two through nine or whatever, two through nine of what he said. We all think we can be each other. We all flawed. We all think we can beat each other. And so that's, that's relevant to keep in mind as we watch how this plays out. All right back here on the, well, I was going to say, if the seats hold up in the west right now to Denver, southern Minnesota, had a hell of the series last year. It's all I'm going to say. I think it would. By the same. By the way three three lakers and six warriors yeah that's probably an NBA TV series okay welcome back the hoop collective so on the day that the Miami Heat traded Jimmy Butler and ended their national nightmare well their domestic nightmare and our national nightmare they they won that

day and they went to 25 and 25 since the trade's actually been executed they are four in 10 coming in tonight, I think the Warriors are 12 and 1 when Butler plays. They might be 12 and 2 overall. They have blown a successive series of leads late in games. By the way, one of those wins came on a BAM at a bio game winner. Yep. They have kind of been all over the place. And by the way, a lot of those games came at home.

Like, you know, they had a long road trip in there, but they had a long home stand, too, that they weren't able to take advantage of. Two and seven in question since the trade deadline. Yeah, so in this little homestand they just had, they lost to the Timberwolves, which okay, but then they just lost their last two games at home to the Bulls and the Hornets. Both games, they blew double-digit leads.

Look, I mean, I know that they're always a dangerous team because of their nature. That is not the way they thought this would be going after this Jimmy Butler trade. And they still got, you know, the Eastern Conference is so forgiving. But it's forgiving because you've got to beat teams like the Hornets and the Bulls.

And so Bon Temps like, this, you know, this is, this is not a, this is not shaping up the way the season that the heat we're planning on. I mean, look, it's been a tough schedule for them overall, right? Like they lost, they have losses to Boston, to Oklahoma City, to a, much healthier Dallas team to Milwaukee, to the Knicks, to the Cavs, to the Wolves, to the

wolves, right? Like, those are all good teams that you look at the game and say, all right, it's not really a surprise that heat are going to lose these games. But again, it's, they lost a lot of those games close and late, which is tough. They've had multiple bizarre collapses in the fourth quarter of games this season. They played the Nets, and I want to say the Nets outscored them, like 30 to 8 to end a game that they lost, lose into Charlotte, which is obviously openly tanking at this point or, you know, certainly doing everything they can to lose games is bad. The Bulls have not beat a team with a winning record since January. Losing to them at home is bad. You know, those are all, and obviously the Heat are a team with a winning record,

so that doesn't change that. But, you know, I mean, look, the Heat have been, we've joked about the Hawks being sort of the perpetual play-in team over the last. few years in the East, well, the heat have been right there with them over and over again. And yes, they had Jimmy in the past and made a couple runs in the playoffs. But, you know, this is where the heat have been for for the last two or three years. It's part of why they didn't extend Jimmy Butler in the first place. Like they came into the season saying, let's see how good this team really is. And is this a team that's actually a top four team in the east or is it the team that's been on the road in the first round for the last five years?

And it's certainly been the latter and then some. And, you know, it's... They've been a play-in team. I mean, they were in November one to see it a couple years ago, but they've been a play-in team. That's really what they've been. Which they won't be a game this year. They don't have Jimmy Buffer.

No, they won't. They now have Andrew Wiggins. And it's been a rough transition for Andrew Wiggins in Miami. The shooting numbers aren't pretty. The net rating is negative 9.9. Is that good? those mentions. A lot of deal.

And listen, if they get bounced in the play in, the good news is they will have a lottery pick. The bad news is the lottery protected pick that they owe the Oklahoma City Thunder becomes an unprotected pick and they owe the Oklahoma City Thunder every year. How is it like every single team? By the way. By the way. The other thing is it's not even just the Thunder pick, right?

So the heater in a very interesting. interesting position because they have a protected, a ladder protected pick this year, 2025, and then it becomes unprotected in 26 if they don't make the playoffs. They also have a lottery protected pick to Charlotte from the Terry Rozier Kyle Lauer trade last year in 27, which if they don't convey the pick this year,

it means next year's pick becomes unprotected, means then they can't have a pick go in 27, which means it then becomes unprotected in 28. So it's not even just about making the playoffs. this year, it's about going from having two lottery protected first to having two totally unprotected first out. And that is a scary situation to be in as a team because then if you do have a bad year, either of those years, you have no recourse to get out of it. So it's obviously imperative for them to make the playoffs. And look, the best thing they have going for them right now

is the East play-in situation is quite rough. The magic have been a disaster for two months. the hawks are projected to finish seventh with 39 wins and the Bulls are quite clearly you know they'll be quite clearly happy to jump up in the lottery rather than jump up in the Eastern Conference playing standing. By the way, you know, you mentioned that Rozier trade, which even the day they made the trade,

I thought it was a strange move because the heat typically want to hold their first round picks in the future for like big swings. Rozier has been a disaster in Miami. Yeah. Yes, he has. And he's not the only reason that their team is performing poorly. And look, he's like under some sort of investigation.

I don't know what that is impacting him day to day. I don't know. I can't speak to that. But he's having the worst year he's had since he was like a second year player. And he's lost his starting job. He's shooting 40% from the field. He's shooting 40% from the field. He's shooting 30% from three.

He's been in and out of the rotation. And they're seven points better with him on the bench. he's had some moments during this last 15 games where like you just they had a they blew a game in cleveland a couple days ago um part of the calves calves corner just got that in there ching um where he made a couple of plays where i don't know where his head was so um yeah you know at times i think of at times i think of spoh had a better option he would go with it but that rizier trade is not bearing fruit. The heat have made a lot of great transactions over the decades. That one is not among them. Hey, McMahon, do you think we could get the Bon Temps pigeon at our next live show?

I'd rather have the pigeon than Bon Temp, so maybe we can make it a thing there. We'll even give up a first round pick along with Bon Temps. Protected? I'll go unprotected to get rid of it. Detective pick ain't getting it done. I got to tell you something. We've had some great moments on this podcast and some not so great ones. I love the Bontemps Pigeon. I don't read the comments. Jackson and Rafa, our producer, will read the comments. Give a suggestion

for what we're going to name the pigeon. Thank you to Rafa, our producer. Jackson's on vacation. Lame, went to Florida for spring break. Thank you to Bontem, thank you, McMahon. Thank you for watching and listening to the HOOP Collective. We'll talk to you later this week.

Adios, megos.