Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - The Definitive Western Conference Finals Contenders, Cavs-Celtics Battle & Legendary Sonny Vaccaro Stories

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to dish out the teams that truly have a chance to get to the NBA Finals from the Western Conference, break down an interesting statement from Gregg Popovich and preview a potentially telling matchup between the Cavs & Celtics. Then, renowned journalist & author Armen Keteyian joins to talk his new book 'Legends and Soles: The Memoir of an American Original' on the legendary Sonny Vaccaro including some wild stories about LeBron James, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hooke Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday afternoon. Joining us from New York City.

Sure is looking forward to his next trip to see the Sixers because he sees the Sixers every few days. It's Timbontas. Hello, everybody. I'm going to Cavs Corner tomorrow today. Oh, there's a game. No Sixers in my near future. There's a game in Cleveland tomorrow.

Joining me from upstairs. Not in Cleveland, but involves Cleveland. That's right. It's right. My bad. Joining me from upstairs here in our LA office. he's wearing makeup is band McMahon. Pardy, partners,

Bon Tim's does not want to go to Cleveland because Moondog said he was a distant third in his favorite hoop collective personalities. I like going to Cleveland just fine. I've gone there plenty of times, which I'm just not going there today, the day of pot. I'm going to Boston. When plays her show, somebody's got his show, McMahon.

Later on in the podcast, we're going to have a special guest on Army Catan, which I'll tell you about later. But first, we've got some interesting Western Conference games coming up here. The Lakers are playing the Timberwolves tonight, which podcast will come out. Then they got a couple of games over the weekend with the Clippers. And, you know, one of the things that we've seen develop over the last couple of days

as the Warriors continue to win without Jimmy Butler and that'll guarantee, or with Jimmy Butler, that'll guarantee they'll lose tonight in Orlando, even though Orlando has been awful for like two months now, is really this kind of evaluation on, you know, just how. many teams in this Western Conference can actually win this thing. And, you know, there's a perpetual disregard for the Thunder. There's nothing I can do. Nothing. Bont-Emps and I are, are, believe the Thunder are leaders to win the West. Where are you at McMahon on the Thunder? Do you believe, are they your favorite? Yes, I believe the team that has the best point differential in NBA history is the favorites in the Western Conference. Well, apparently that's a hot take.

Apparently that's a hard day because I said as much on NBA today yesterday and our social team put it out with like the eyes emojis. Oh, wow. Yeah. But anyway. What a concept. I mean, they have a nine game lead. They have the best point differential in the history of the league. How could you say anybody else is the favorites?

Seems like a pretty good case to me. What do I know? But in the spirit of paying attention to what's happening in the West where the Lakers and Warriors are surging, Denver is surging. I want to have a frank conversation. I don't want to know how many contenders you think are in the West because contenders is a, you know, a fungible word that can mean a whole bunch of different things. I want to know how many teams do we think can win 12 playoff games in the Western Conference.

Three series, first of four, that's 12 McMahon. How many teams can win 12 games and reach the finals? How many places do I need to make hotel reservations? I've got them in Oklahoma City. the question. How many, how many reservations do I need for the finals? That's right. I've got him at Oklahoma City. I've got them in Oklahoma City, Cleveland, and Boston. That's where I've got them right now. I'm prepared to expand my list. Well, Denver, you have to. Come on, Denver's got to be there. All right. Okay. I have four cities saved. Okay. Go ahead. Let's hear. I have those four

cities. Cleveland, Boston, in the east, Oklahoma City, and Denver in the West. So you're saying you think Denver and Oklahoma City in your view. I'm giving Nicole Yokic. I'm giving Nicole Yokic. I'm giving Yolokic, the credit as being the best player on the planet and thinking he can win 12 games. He also has won 12 games. I think Denver is good enough to do it. I think they have certainly improved as the season has gone on. And most importantly, they have Nicole Yokic as arguably the best player. And they have Jamal Murray looking like the Jamal Murray from 2023 again, finally. So I think that gives them a chance to get through. But yeah, I mean, to me, the Thunder are the clear and obvious favorites. I think they're the fairly massive favorites to get. get to the finals. And like I said, a couple weeks ago, I think it's at this point a real disappointment if the Thunder don't make it to the finals. You can talk about how young they are. You could talk about all these other things. Like McBan said, this is a team with a historic regular season. And there's not a team sitting out there like Boston or arguably even Cleveland in the West. So yeah, I think it's Oklahoma City. I'm giving a tip of the cap to Denver and no disrespect to everybody else,

but I don't see anybody else is getting there. And I will say, look, people are going to get mad in L.A. and other places, if we would have said one year ago today, who was going to make the finals in the Western Conference, we wouldn't have had the Mavericks in there. And they went 18 and 2 down the stretch and got out of the playing and went on a crazy run and got there. So is that to say that somebody couldn't emerge? Sure. But as we're sitting here on February 27.

Well, that's why this is a relevant conversation because we've had two years ago, we had a play-in team and the Lakers make the conference finals. And last year we had the, what the, man, they were the five seed, right? Yes. Okay. Two years ago in the east, we had a team make the plane come out of the plane to make the finals. Yeah, so the Mavericks won three straight series, where they were the road team to start. I'm sorry, I'm just looking at my hotel reservations for the finals.

I just now canceled Philadelphia. Oh, no. I think that was a safe call. Yeah. Yeah. Are you sure that second thing? Are you sure you want to cancel this? You can cancel the playing reservations there too, I think, at this point.

Yeah. So McMahon, how many places do you got reservations still? Where else are you canceling? Well, and I made mine a while ago. I did make Memphis. I did make Minnesota. We're just talking West, right? Mm-hmm.

So Memphis, Minnesota, Denver, and OKC is what I've got. Are you retaining those reservations? I mean, yeah, because I've got them. So still within the realm of possibility. I do not have it. For the purposes of this exercise, not actually, you know, so, you know, are you, are you holding reservations in those places? So you're saying you think Memphis was winning 12, can win 12 games, not that they're going to. I think it is very unlikely. I would say, I don't think they have a 5% chance. I don't think Minnesota has a 5% chance. If you're giving,

if 5% is like the, I think, we're going to use the Darrell-Mory rule. What teams have a 5% chance? I think OKC's about 50. I think Denver's about 35. I think the Lakers, maybe you could talk me into the Lakers cracking 5%. And then I think you were trickling in some single-digit ones, one of which I wouldn't have to get a hotel anyway. I know the Lakers just beat the Nuggets in Denver for the first time in, I think, three years. I'm going to need to see them win a few more games like that before I'm putting them

in that category, as well as they've played and as good as they've looked. of late. Well, the reason I put the Lakers in the 5% category is LeBron is still playing at a no-brainer all NBA level. Obviously, the guy is, you know, he's been to umpteen finals. And Luca is absolutely capable of carrying a team to a playoff series victory at least once or twice during a playoff run. So, you know, when you've got two of the top, I'm going to say eight players in the league, then I think you've got a 5% chance to win your conference. Yeah. It's me, with the Lakers, it all comes down to whether or not this defense is legitimate. If the way that they're playing defense, which is wing heavy, pack the paint, allow a lot of threes, we were

running the numbers today. The Lakers coming into this game tonight against Minnesota, they, you know, the day everyone's got circles is January 15th. Since January 15th, they're like 15 and 4. They are number one in defense, defensive efficiency in that time. And they've allowed the third most three-point attempts in that time. So what JJ Redick is doing, and their team has changed a lot in that time. And I think Anthony Davis played, I think, of those 19 games, I think Anthony Davis played in seven of them, seven or eight. So it's not a clean, you know, comparison going forward. But in that stretch, they've played essentially this system where they're protecting the paint with their wings because they don't have tremendous rim protection with their bigs. And so the question is, do I believe

believe, or anybody believe, that that defense can hold up. I think it's an interesting, it's an interesting maneuver from JJ Redick, who certainly, as the three-point shooter, he may believe that more people are taking high volume threes than should, and maybe that they can lean into that. And I certainly think if you're going to play that way in a series, you're risking getting exposed every now and then. And of course, it depends on who you're playing. If they keep the defense up, and I'm not saying number one, but if they continue to win games with decent defense, I will entertain the possibility to the point where I may make reservations in L.A.

I just know that Luke, you know, not the way Luke is playing right now, but I know that Luca can carry a team through a playoff series. And I know LeBron, maybe not through a whole series, but certainly it could make be the difference in two games in a series. and I respect that if their defense can get it close, LeBron and Luca can bring it home. That's the best way to say it. And so I'm, you know, I'm going to make Denver.

I'm, I think I'm going to make L.A. too. What about the Bay? We'll see if Brian's a true ESPN employee. He's already, he's already gone off the deep end on the Lakers. We'll see if you can go off the deep end on the Warriors. No, I'm 5%. So you're saying they failed to make the 5% rule. They're starting Jackson Hayes at center.

I agree. I don't, I don't, yeah, as we've talked about, as we talked about on the last podcast, I don't care about basically all of the games before Saturday. So, you know, come back to me on March 21st. And I want to look from Saturday to March 20th when they play the box. Okay, well, March 21st, I can cancel the reservation, but I think I'm going to make them. I mean, it's your, it's your list. That's just my, I don't, I'm not worried about their defense over the last month.

I am because I know they're going to score. As I ignored them for the first part of the season and I was considering putting a ban on talking about them, it was because I can't take a team ranked 24th in defense seriously. So if that's my rule, I have to take seriously a team ranked first in defense. Also, we were going to talk about them after they traded for Luca or they were ranked 34th in defense. Well, not on this pod.

We don't have to do it. Oh, yes, we would have. The other night. I got books to sell. We were going to talk about it. Exactly. Exactly. And the other night, I mean, there were stretches of the game where Austin Reeves as Guard and Kyrie Irving and had to do it. So I would, that's all I would say from a,

I'm not really buying that as a team that's got the number one defense in the NBA. So let's see where they're at after the next few weeks. I'm also skeptical on the six-week defense thing, but you cannot deny the star power. And as far as Jackson Hayes being the starting center, I think he'll play like a dozen minutes a game in the playoffs. I think they're going to do. Yeah, I understand that. I'm not saying Jackson-Hays. going to be a 35-minute player. It's just, it's a massive liability to their team. They have no size to the point where the Lillipusian Mavericks were killing them on the boards. All these teams in Oklahoma City have liabilities. Well, that's why I think the list ends at two, and I'm only going

two because Denver has the best player on the planet. Hold on. What about, what about old splash and crash, Steph and Jimmy? Look, the Warriors have gotten off to a great start with these guys. They have the same problem, a lot of the same problems that the Lakers do. I think there are more balanced team than the Lakers overall. They're probably not quite as good offensively. I think they're overall much more solid at the defensive end. But ultimately, you're talking about a tiny roster that when you're going through the playoffs in the West, they're going to have a lot of time, they're going to have a lot of difficulty beating some of these bigger, more physical teams as they go through. And you're also talking about a roster where you got three guys,

35 and older in Steph, Dremont, and Jimmy, that you're relying on to carry you for the next four months and I think the odds are those guys are not going to hold up over that stretchy. So McMahon, if you were starting from today, you didn't have pre-existing reservations that you made months ago. Where would you make them? Because you're hedging, like saying that you're not canceling, but give it to me. Okay, C and Denver. And then I'd said, I might make one in L.A. I'd consider it depending on the rate. If the rate was really good. All right, no, worry about the rate. I'm just the concept. Now, I'm not actually talking about the mechanics of holding the room. Oklahoma City and Denver, I think you're 85 to 90 percent between those

two. Are you putting down a deposit for a table at the bar previously known as the Pink Parrot? Are you confident enough to put down a non-refundable bottle? I don't even know the term. Well, first of all, I don't think it's a bottle service type of joint, nor do I do bottle service. But yes, I will go ahead and make a reservation there considering that I'm on scholarship. I'm very confident. It's the goat. Opening up is a sports bar, the goat. Also, the tipsy teak, you're right there out of the river.

We'll be hanging out of both of them, Wendy. I will say this. The goat is a great name for a sports bar. It's a great name for a sports bar. It's not bad. Look, if you just did a blank, if you just did a blank look at the stats for the thunder, and you just said,

what would your percentage be on a team with this resume, MVP candidate, top three MVP candidate player, best net rating of all time, top five offense and defense, dominant nine or ten game lead over the rest of the conference. You wouldn't say 50% of them making the finals. You'd say 60 or 70 or 80% of them making the finals. I agree with that. Yeah, but then you'd say, hold on, they do group interviews and they're kind of nerdy. Well, it's beyond that. That's not really that. It's that their average age is like 24.8. Well, it's all of it. It's that. And that they've won one playoff. series as a group. Yeah, they haven't done it. And until, until a team does it, there's going to be

a whole bunch of doubt. So that's where they are right now. Yeah, I was talking to somebody in the, GM in the Western Conference, and I was saying, you know, how do you feel about the Thunder not getting respect? And, you know, he's like, I don't think, he's like, why should they get respect? He wasn't being dismissive to them. He's like, he's like, he's like, you shouldn't get respect until you've done it before. Honestly, like, I talked to a lot of people around the Western Commerce, too. And I talked to, like, coaches on other teams that'll be in. the playoff mix, and there is not like this great fear of the Oklahoma City Thunder. Whether there should not be.

I was talking to a head coach yesterday, and he said, we all think we can beat each other. We're all flawed, and we all think we can beat each other. Well, and look, if we're being serious, the thunder discussion really just comes down to Jalen Williams. That's the question. Everybody, when you go into a series with a team like that, you know Shea is going to ball and he's going to put up numbers. The question is, and their defense.

is going to be awesome. They've got the two bigs. They can play a thousand different ways. They've got, you know, experienced veteran role players now, guys like Isaiah Hartnstein and Alex Caruso, like, you know, Lou Dorts played in the playoffs now a bunch. They've got a bunch of different guys. What they don't necessarily have is that truly reliable second score deep in the playoffs. And that's what the spring is going to be about. Can Jalen Williams step up in that moment and be the kind of player they need them to be? That's where the doubts come from. I would say or Chet Holmgren, because I do think, you know, Jalen Williams has, obviously Chet's been out this year. So Jalen Williams has established himself as that number two guy on a consistent basis, but coming in in the season, it was 2A, 2B.

I think Chet is their second best player. But I think from this standpoint, what I'm talking about, it's about the person that's creating offense and running the team when Shea isn't on the court and is the second guy on the perimeter. Because you look at all these elite-level teams. She's not going to be on the court for about six minutes of playoffs. I'm just saying you need a second guy on the perimeter to be a reliable big time score in a deep playoff room like that. You need somebody else to step up and do it. And like for Denver, the second guy, even though they're not perimeter guys because Yokic is inside, the second guy for them is Javall Murray. And the second guy for Boston is Jalen Brown.

The second guy, you know, we'll see what the second guy for Cleveland is going to be. But like last year it was Lucas and Kyrie. Well, I just, wait, Paris Carlin has to do it in the playoffs. He hasn't done it in the playoffs yet. So last year you had Luca and then you had Kyrie, right? you had another guy that you knew could get going in any playoff game, put up huge numbers. I think that is the biggest question mark. And we've talked about it a bunch.

I think that's the biggest question mark about this Thunder team. Obviously, the role players have to hit threes, which they didn't in the Mab series. And Jalen Williams struggled offensively in the Mab series. And Jail-Liams has gotten a lot better, does it really make the All-Star team? But that, I think, is where the question and the doubt about the thunder comes in. It's like, what is Jail-Liams going to look like in the spring? And that's the fun thing about the playoffs is we're going to find out. And while Jalen Williams is a critical part of their defense, for example, last year in the series where he really struggled offensively, he was the primary defender on Kyrie Irving.

He doesn't need to be, you know, maybe in the starting lineup, but they've got Lou Dort, Kaysen Walls, Alex Caruso. He's not going to be the primary defender on a guy like Kyrie Irving or, you know, Desmond Bain or whoever they end up matching up against, you know, that number two guy. He's not going to have to do that for 35 minutes a night in the playoffs. If the Lakers play the Thunder in the second round of the playoffs, our entire network, including Brian, is going to pick the Lakers to win. First off, I don't make predictions. Oh, like I had, that was not a no, McBan. It was not a no.

It was just a runaway. Secondly, that is going to be extremely fascinating because if the Thunder wins- Is it actually going to be fascinating? Yeah, I do. Because if the Thunder win 4-1, we're going to know that they're ready to go. Okay. You know, and it's interesting because last year. That's a different answer.

I thought you were saying it was going to go seven games. No. Last year, I thought the Lakers were a really tough matchup for the Thunder because the Lakers were big and physical. And AD was a huge problem for the Thunder, which, hey, if AD is healthy, the Madras can be a tough matchup for them too. I don't know that the Lakers are as tough a matchup for them now because the Lakers aren't nearly as big and the, you know, the Thunder are a lot bigger now.

You know, dealing with Luca and LeBron's not a picnic, but I would think Oklahoma City would win that series and not have to have a game seven. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Well, speaking of Texas, before we move on, Greg Popovich put out a statement today, and I'm going to read the statement in full because I think the verbiage is important, and it's also not a long statement. I have decided not to return to the sidelines this season. Mitch Johnson and his staff have done a wonderful job and the resolve in professionalism.

The players have shown sticking together during a challenging season has been outstanding. I will continue to focus on my help with the hope that I can return to coaching in the future. It's good to hear from Greg Popovich, number one. Number two, I think there were two important things in this statement of three sentences. One, I have decided not to return. Nobody else has decided. Not my doctors, not ownership. not R.C. Buford, not a vote of the fans, not Victor Mbenyama, whatever. I, as team president,

have decided not to return. Secondly, while he certainly doesn't commit to anything, he makes it very clear he is not retiring. No, that to me was the most important part with the hope of returning to coaching in the future. That is the most important part. It makes it clear that as far as Pop is concerned, the plan is that he will continue as the coach of the San Antonio Spurs I presume next season. But very clearly this is not pop riding off into the sunset. Let me say two things. One, remember, and we all wish him the best and we all don't know exactly what his health situation is.

Let's just get those two things out of the way. One, remember in 2003 when Victor was going to be a rookie, he signed a five-year contract extension. Not that he needed to sign an extension like that. He obviously doesn't have job security issues. But the fact that he signed a five-year extension was a signal to him everybody, I'm going to be the coach for foreseeable future. Don't be looking at my job. Victor, I'm going to be your coach. That's number one.

So we know that's what his plan was. Number two, this does put the spurs in an interesting situation because if he's making it clear, the organization has to have been thinking about what it's going to do. And now it's making it clear that he wants to continue coaching. And so they disperts don't have a choice, assuming that he remains in the president's job and has the ultimate say. But it does make you wonder if they do something about having a coach in waiting, a more formalized coach in waiting. That will be interesting. You know, the other thing this does is potential pop replacements who are established head coaches elsewhere, I think will no longer be, no longer have any interest because nobody wants to be the,

the guy who is perceived as trying to push pop out. That's just not something that anybody, no one's going to put themselves in position to be disrespectful of a legend. I totally agree with again, both on the most important thing being he plans on coaching and that I think people for a lot of reasons are going to be reticent to be seen like they're trying to push the guy out from the spurs to people elsewhere. And so it's going to make for an interesting spring to see what the spurs decide to do

after they just made a big call to trade for the Aaron Fox. and you've got the whole Victor Wembeiyama blood clot situation to sort out, and you've got this to sort out. I mean, there's a lot of things to be excited about for the Spurs, but there's also a lot of questions, and it's going to be an interesting summer ahead. Okay. The Cavs have won 12 out of 13 games. The loss was the game that McMahon, you were at in Cleveland. Since DeAndre Hunter got to Cleveland, the Cavs not only have been six to no, but their average margin of victory in those six games is 23 points.

Hunter is plus 46 in those six games, and I think he was, zero in game one. So plus 46 is last five. They specifically traded for him to have him to be used in this in this potential playoff series. Not that I expect what happens on Friday to determine everything, Bontemps. But the team that the Cavs lost to the Celtics against two weeks ago, three weeks ago, whenever it was, is not the same team. Also, Dean Wade is back, who gives them some perimeter defensive assignment options. The Celtics had been looking. looking great. They won six in a row. They go to Detroit and get handed. Yeah, they had a couple injuries in the second half and faded down the stretch.

Another great performance from Detroit up to eight in a row. Second end of a back-to-back for Boston. Pistons continue to look awesome. I mean, the only question I have about this game is, how important is this game for Cleveland? I don't think it's that important to be honest with you. I disagree with that. That seems like Cavs Corner Homer Pomp on top. Oh, yeah. Old Moon dog made an appearance here. Just put on the fur little head, Wendy. No, I think they now have a seven game lead in the loss column. It's not about that.

The Cavs, the Cavs made the Cavs made the DeAndre Hunter trade as a direct result of their games against Boston and the matchup with the Celtics, right? If they go into this game and they get smacked, I'm not saying they're going to get smacked, but let's say they lose by 20. Let's say that the Celtics handle them in this game, right? That's not going to be a great statement going into the playoffs. Now, if it's competitive, I don't think they have to necessarily win the game. But to me, this is about can the calves go out there and go toe to toe with Boston, in Boston, and have a quality game and show they can go up against the Celtics and have it be a really competitive match.

Because look, going into last weekend, this time a week ago, we're saying, and the Knicks are in a different spot. But it was, hey, the Knicks have the Cavs, the Knicks have the Celtics. Let's see where the Knicks sit. And the Knicks got rocked twice. and the entire look at the Knicks now is totally different. And obviously Cleveland's had a better year. Caves are going to be the one seed. All those things are true.

But I think this is an important game from an optical and confidence level standpoint for Cleveland to go in there and show they can hang with the Celtics and potentially beat them on the road. Well, by the way, in the three games they played this year, Boston's two and one. They played the first game in Boston, Boston won by three. But if I remember, Bont Hemp, I think it, I don't think it was Z. quite that close. The calves were down pretty heavy and then came back in the third quarter and made it competitive and then lost. Okay. Then the game in Cleveland, the cows won by four, but I feel like it was the same thing. I don't really think it was that close. The calves, well, no, the calves, the calves outscored the Celtics by 16 in the fourth quarter and came back and won the game. It was a lot like the game the year before in

February in Cleveland when the Celtics were upmost of the game fell apart late. That's right. That's right. It was the second game in Cleveland where it was like it ended up being like a 12 point game, but it was actually a much more lost-sided. Correct. That one was the last one right before the trade deadline, which then led to, you know, at least partially, helped the Cavs decided to trade for DeAndre Hunter. Yeah, that was a seven-point game. Oh, seven points.

Yeah, I was there for it. But, yeah, Cleveland control or the Boston jumped out to a big lead early, to control the game. the outcome was never in doubt. And again, Kenny Atkinson was very honest and blunt, really, both before and after the game. I don't know if you use the words measuring stick, but basically like, hey, we've got to see how, you know, their record hadn't been great against the better teams leading up to that. We've got to see how we fare in these games in a game like this.

And then, you know, after the game, he's like, we've really got to study it and see how we can, you know, get to the point where we can beat a team like Boston, and they went out and made a trade for a guy who is a big athletic wing that certainly helps them have a better chance to match up against the big athletic wings that the Celtics have. So what I'll be interested in a couple of things. One, what the Cavs actually do with DeAndre Hunter, they've been moving their starting lineup around a little bit. But they're, you know, well, Darius Garland, the injury report isn't out. He has his hip injuries missed the last two games, but I don't think it's a serious injury, and I think they were

kind of saving him for this. So I would not be surprised if he's back. And Jalen Brown is questionable with a thigh injury, and Drew Holliday is questionable with a finger injury also for this game. But we'll see how much they deploy Hunter. He's guarded when he was in Atlanta. He really has, he's gotten a lot of reps against Brown and Tatum. And by the way, Boston's record's pretty good. although earlier this year, the Hawks, you know, did beat the Celtics twice. There is, man. Setting it up. Send it up.

One of the things that happens when you watch Cavs games this year is Donovan Mitchell has several different gears. One of the things that they've done this year really well is he's dialed back at times and let Evan Mobley or Darius Garland go. It's been tremendously successful. Mitchell playing with a little bit, you know, less usage rate, a little bit. a little bit less of less minutes, less shots, has helped those two guys become all-stars. Donovan, Donovan not caring what his stats are has been a huge development for him and for the cavaliers. The fact that his minutes and his numbers are down a little bit, to me, is proof of

his maturity and his leadership. Absolutely. 100%. And it's also been smart to protect him. And I would argue watching him throughout the year, he's gotten stronger and stronger. Like, if you remember, he had like two dunks in like the first, like 35-ish games. Not that that's the be-all end all, but you could, and you look at these last like 10 or 15 games, his bounce looks way, way better.

I think they're getting rewarded for reducing his workload. But there are also times. And the last Sunday's game against Memphis is an example when Darius Garland is out, where he has downshifted into historic Mitchell and gone hard. So part of, I think, what you see in regular season games is you see him choosing a gear. Not that he's taking it easy, but you see him choosing a gear. So one of the things that you want to watch for isn't just, for the certain matchups that happen, I want to see whether Donovan is what gear he's in.

The other thing is, in the games this year, the Celtics have used Jason Tate. them basically at defensive center a lot guarding Jared Allen. And the Cavs haven't always been able to take advantage of that. So what the Nix did against the NICS too, had him on Carl Towns a lot. Wendy, you know how today on NBA today I mentioned Chris Finch's challenge to Ann Edwards has been, hey, empower your teammates as much with your game as you do with your personality. That's what Donovan Mitchell's been able to do this year. He's empowering his teammates with his game. It's a learned leadership skill. In all honesty, like, you know, spots four and five.

I think Taven's probably going to be in fourth an MVP, but spot five and MVP, you know, not for nothing. Like, it doesn't mean that much. But like, I had Jalen Brunson in there last time around. I feel good about that. And Jalen Brunson, for example, had an MVP performance on Wednesday night where he carried him home. But like... To me, it's either him or Donovan Mitchell for just that reason.

Like Donovan might have earned it just because he's helped these two guys. And by the way, it was also Kenny Atkinson's, you know, this is part of the reason why Kenny Atkinson is a favorite for coach of the year because of his partnership in designing this concept with Donovan. Donovan had to buy it and execute it. Yeah. Well, last year in the playoffs, you know, I was at the series, right? Donovan heard his quad and couldn't finish the series and wore down as the things went on. And it's very clear from the beginning the goal was to get to the end of the season and be in a

different place physically than he'd been the last couple years when they had grinded their way to every single game. and, you know, the goal was to get to the playoffs two years ago, right? Then they got to the playoffs. They got absolutely smoked by the Knicks. Then last year, the expectation was to try to win around, and they did everything they could to lose to Orlando. They wheezed through that series, and then they get smacked by the Celtics. Now I was like, all right, like, Jamie Bickerstaff got let go and Kenny Atkins that got brought

in to, like, try to level this thing up, right? And that's where it's been impressive from the way the calves have approached this whole season, from Donovan Mitchell on down, because they have attacked it like a team that has real expectations of making the kind of run they want to have. And that goes back to the way Donovan has empowered those guys, which I don't think, you know, you can't speak enough to to McMan's point. And the way he's, like you said, built himself into the season so that the hope for Cleveland is that he's at his peak in late May or, you know, in late April and May and June when they're hopefully making a really deep run. All right. We will look for your, forward to your reporting from

Cleveland or from Boston. I keep thinking it's in Cleveland. Sorry. sitting Cleveland McBain. What's an extra home game? Yeah, we'll see. I know the, I know the Cavs with the seven game lead in the loss column are thinking they're going to have home court in that potential series. They certainly are. All right. Before we go, I had a really nice discussion with Armin Coutain about his new book, basically the memoir of Sonny Vicaro, who's wrote it with him. And we're going to have that right now, right after this. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Okay, now this is a special thing that I'm doing here. I get a lot of books sent to me. I have a lot of authors pitched to me,

which I am happy to have on as an author myself, and I'm happy to read these books. And I, you know, just within the last week I had an author on. This one is different. So my guest right now is Arman Ketan, who, if you're a person of a certain age, you are ubiquitous, Arman, because you have written six bestsellers and you have like 10 or 15 Emmys and you were on 60 minutes. And you're on 60 minutes and you were on ABC and NBC. Some of the podcast listeners and viewers may be a skew a little younger. Armacotain is a legend as a journalist. Okay.

So my respect for him is immense. And let me just say that this book that we're going to talk about, I have not read. I have not had it sent to me. And I'm not saying that, Armand, because I wanted it. I'm very excited about it. My point is, is that when I found out about this book, I was personally excited. I am genuinely excited to consume it. And that's why I wanted to have Armin on to talk.

talk about it. He has co-written a book called in Legends and Souls, or actually called Legends and Souls, Soles, as in Shoes. It's basically the memoir, Sonny Bakero, who is a transformational figure in basketball. But before I talk about Sunny, Armin, I just want to say, you know, the book that you wrote with Jeff Benedict on Tiger Woods, which if you're a golf fan or a Tiger fan, you've done many great projects in your career, but I will just tell you, as somebody who's written books on very high-profile athlete who doesn't necessarily give you 35 hours of interviews. The book on, I read, as a golf fan, I read, and I'm filibustering. I haven't even let you talk yet, Aram, I'm sorry.

That book is such an impressive, incredible work of storytelling without access. It's been made into a documentary or the basis of a documentary. I highly encourage you to check that book out as well, as long as I've got Armin here. But, Armin, first off, thank you for coming on. Welcome. I wish you could tell me how this process came together because Sonny Vicaro, if you don't know who he is, I feel like we were wasting time. I mean, they made a movie about it. You know, Ben Affleck played Phil Knight and Matt Damon played Sonny Vakara, which is laughable if you know Sonny, Matt Damon played him. But where did this project come from before we start talking about?

So our relationship has, you know, we don't talk every month. We didn't talk every week, but we talked quite a bit over the last nearly 40 years. And I was in the midst of working on another book called The Price, which was a deep dive into the state of the chaotic state of big time college football, which came out last August. And in August of 23, I reconnected with Sunny because part of that book was the Ed O'Bannon landmark Oban lawsuit. Which Sonny played a big role in. Played a huge role, pivotal role, seminal role in it. And so when we were talking, I said to him, so how's the book? And as you well know, rumors around Sonny McCarroll for the last almost six. seven or eight years were Sonny's working on a book.

And we didn't quite know who was working on it with him. There were all sorts of names that were sort of floating around, but I never knew who it really was. Yeah, as a quick aside, there's been a movie made. Phil Knight has written the book. There's been 100 articles and magazine stories or whatever, but Sonny has never done his story. He's never told his story his way.

And that was what, so what I said to him was, I'm like, where are you with the book? And because he had said, you know, there's a great chapter in the, in the price called Oppenheimer. And Sonny gave me this great quote. He goes, I was Oppenheimer. And I said to him, as I know you've said in the past to other people, please do not give that quote to anybody else ever again, because it's such a good quote.

So we were talking. And as you mentioned, Air had come out by then. And the book had gone out to publishers, the proposal had gone out to publishers. And as can happen, all the publishers said, well, we already know the story. Because they had seen the movie, even though it was only four months of Sonny's life of an 85-year-old. life. So I said, well, send it to me, because by that time, we talked, it was probably early 24 again when I was fact-checking stuff. And I said, well, send me the proposal and let me look at it. And then, so they sent me the proposal. And I was sort of like it didn't really capture Sunny's

life the way I think it should have been captured. And then I said, well, send me the manuscript. because he says, we have a manuscript. Well, it was 152,000 words. And having written books, you know, that's like two books and one. Yes, about 70. I think the books I've written are about 70 or 80,000, maybe 80,000, yeah. It needed to be cut down and it needed to be reorganized. And it really needed to be recentered and polished and trimmed.

But the book was there. The stories were there. The detail was there. The color was there. The moments were there. I mean, this is such an auto buy and auto recommend. Like, literally, I am, I mean, seriously, you doing this project with Sunny, yes, instantaneous, instantaneous success. I don't even care what's in it.

You can probably name a half a dozen people that have done, at least a half a dozen that have done one thing that changed the game, change the world of sports. I can name five or six things that Sonny DeCaro did in an important. probable fashion, going back to the round ball, the dapper Dan, and then paying coaches, who comes up with that idea to pay coaches for shoe company money? And then obviously Michael Jordan and the Kobe signing. Yeah, so let me stop you there. So obviously his background and coming from Western Pennsylvania, that's all, I'm sure that's all in the book. I don't know. But there's, for my audience, I would just want to talk about three things in the time that we have. One, the Michael Jordan signing. So Phil Knight wrote a book where he wrote about it.

David Falk wrote a book where he wrote about it. I don't know Phil Knight. I know David Falk a little bit. The movie was essentially Michael's story. It wasn't framed that way, but Michael's story where his mother is the hero of the story. Yes. As you could imagine in David Falk's book, David Falk is the hero of the story. I know who my preferred believe is because the man that I know is Sonny Vicaro.

So this is interesting now. And there's over the years, as you can imagine, with anything, everybody's tugged. and there's been this tension over whose version of stories. So I have to assume, again, having read it and being excited about it. So I assume this is Sunny's version of the story. No question. And it's from the horse's mouth. Right.

I mean, there's a 17, it was 17 seconds to go in 1982 in that Georgetown, North Carolina game when Michael hits that huge critical shot, that is really the seminal moment for Sunny when he realizes that unlike anybody else who would, at that point in time, Michael Jordan is different. Michael Jordan is a game-changing athlete. And at that time, as you'll remember, in 82, Barclay was there, Elijah Juan was there, Stockton was there, that was a draft that was full. Sam Bowie was there full of really great players. But were they transcendent athletes like Michael? Sonny saw that and his story is, and it's the true story is, he puts his, at that time, he's a pretty powerful figure at Nike. He puts his job,

on the line. He puts his career on the line by Nike saying, take all your endorsement money that you're thinking about spreading out to these other athletes and roll it all into one, go all in on Michael Jordan. And Phil Knight is like, whoa, wait a second here. Yeah, because in Phil Knight's book, like, it's very clear, like Nike's this juggernaut now, but he was, he wouldn't say he was barely making payroll by the early 80s, but it wasn't like they were, they were flush with struggling. Tens of millions of dollars to throw around on marketing. They were like, they were like, like $250,000 was their entire marketing budget. And they're like, oh, we can give 30 here, 50.

And Sunny goes, no, put it all in. And then I think the best, one of the best chapters of the book is the role that Billy Packer plays at the 84 Olympics. Well, I'll go back just quickly. Sonny has a meeting with Michael. He's never met him before, set up by George Ravling at Tony Romer's restaurant in Santa Monica, where Sonny says to Michael, based on Rob Strausser, who was the marketing genius at Nike, look, we're going to go all in on you. We're going to make a shoe. We're going to build our entire budget around. And Michael's like, thank you. I don't know Nike from Schmikey. I've never

put my foot in a Nike shoe before. Obviously, Converse at North Carolina. But if all things are equal, I'm signing with Adidas. And Sonny has to convince Michael A to listen. Michael listens. They make the pitch. Michael's interested. But then it comes down to this like, hullivision moment. You can't make it up. Billy Packer and Phil Knight at meet at the Olympics set up by Sunny where Billy Packer had been around Bob Knight, who was coaching the Olympic team, and says, look, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm going to tell you straight in the face. I'm going to answer your questions. What Bob Knight said to me was this guy has a chance to be the greatest of all time. And that's that moment, that seminal moment there was what convinced Phil Knight to go all in on Sunny's

idea. And then there's a moment. There's so many other chapters with Michael, but talk about a moment in time, talk about something. And like you alluded to, Viola Davis, who was great in air as Michael's mom, had little or nothing to do with it in real life, but dramatic tension in a movie, she's perfect there. But it's, and then as you alluded to, Brian, over the years, George Ravling, Michael Jordan, and Phil Knight have all tried to rewrite history and rewrite those moments. Well, this is Sonny McCarroll's story. And if we're going to pick one out of the, out of the hat, I think Sonny's just the one that's...

So I am biased, although I have immense respect for George Ravelling. And I find Phil Knight's book, Shoe Dog, although he kind of rushes through some segments that I'd like to know more about Nike's history, but forget about that. Shoe Dog is a classic memoir. And obviously, I don't know Phil, but a lot of respect, blah, blah, blah. I know the man, I know the man of those three or of those people who has the best history of truth telling. It's sunny. And, you know, the thing that, the thing about sunny is that, you know, when I was dealing with him during the LeBron shoe wars, everything he said came true. Like, this is out of sequence because I was going to ask about Kobe, but I'll never forget this.

My writing partner at the time, Tom Reed was my writing partner at the time. We were covering this shoe story. I'll never forget. Like, we were thinking LeBron was going to get maybe 30 or 40 million, okay, which was unbelievable because Kobe was coming to Nike at that point. He was getting 40 million. So the idea that LeBron would get the same as Kobe, he would won three championships was ridiculous. And the bidding was going on.

And, you know, Sonny was being honest with us. He was like, you know, and he was like, listen, it's going to be a hundred million. And we're like, Sonny. We can't put a hundred million in the paper. We will look like fools. He was like, do yourself a favor, put that it's going to be a hundred million. It's going to be a hundred million. And so what I'm just saying is in the moment as he's trying to sign LeBron, he is being honest, probably more honest than he should have been.

He was sending a message. And that part of that is he wanted his rivals to know that Adidas was willing to go. And this is where the chapter is called a betrayal in Malibu. It's a great scene. A betrayal in Malibu because. They rented a mansion in Malibu. It was a Lakers playoff game. They sent a jet out for LeBron.

One of Sonny's lieutenants, a wonderful guy named Chris Rivers, lived in Akron for like a year. He recruited LeBron. You know, Sonny met and formed a relationship. Adidas was what LeBron wore throughout high school. He brought LeBron to his ABCD camp. LeBron had an incredible affinity and trust for Sonny. LeBron's mother, Gloria, had a lot of. incredible trust him you know you know i wrote about this extensively arm and i don't want to go over

that but when they turned down the money at rebuck his first pitch he famously gets this you know lebron just told the story it just was refreshed on the kelsey brothers podcast where where they they they gave him a 10 million dollar cashier's check and you know this is this is a guy who went to he went to high school that day 303 that's because i know i went the same high school the bell rings 303 a limo comes and gets him takes him to the airport they get on a jet fly in a private jet. I don't know if he'd ever been on a private jet before. I think it was probably the first time to the Reebok headquarters outside Boston.

He's still living in the projects. Well, his mother is. He's living in a different house, but his mother is still living in government housing. And they say to him, if you sign with us today, you may take this $10 million check with you tonight. Tomorrow you can deposit it and have $10 million. Okay? He says no. One of the reasons he says no, Armin, is because he trusts Sunny.

Okay? And so then you get to Malibu and then you write about this in the book. It's May 10th, 2003, and they're out there. And they have spent months putting this presentation together, just boom, boom, boom, boom. And everything's going great until the moment where Sonny opens up the proposal and looks down and sees the number 70 million. Not 100 million. 70 million. And a lot of legal language that says...

It was a lot of... Yeah. Yeah. It was like LeBron had to meet their expectations rather than Adidas meeting LeBron's expectations. And Gloria was there with LeBron. And it was, I can say, I think, in Sunny McKearroll's life, I think the greatest disappointment in his life. And that's the reason he left Adidas because he thought he would, he had been lied to, not thought. He knew he had been lied to.

And it's an incredibly powerful moment because Gloria, looks at Sonny, LeBron looks at Sunny, and Sunny knows what they're thinking is, this isn't what we expected. And Sonny feels like he has betrayed them when really Adidas has betrayed him. And so it's one of those moments you think. Yeah, I mean, Aaron Goodwin, who probably will write a book someday, who LeBron's agent, he described it to me as Sunny was embarrassed. He was, you know, he was embarrassed. And, you know, again, Sonny has delivered Michael Jordan to Nike, the single, great decision in the history of athlete endorsement marketing, one of the biggest decisions in American business. I mean, you know, maybe there's hedge funds or whatever, but, you know, he delivered

Kobe Bryant to Adidas, which think if Adidas had gotten LeBron James and Kobe Bryant. You know, by the way, Adidas messed it up. Kobe ended up leaving, you know. There's another great chapter is like this whole head fake they have with Kobe perhaps going, and it really starts with Jelly Bean Bryant, his father, being at the ABCD camp and Sunny's like, Jelly Bean, this is my son, Kobe. He plays in the ABCD camp the first time and comes up to Sunny at the end of the camp. He's kind of blown people away at the end of the camp and he apologizes to Sunny. And Sunny goes, what are you apologizing for?

Oh, Mr. Vicaro, I'm really sorry I didn't win the MVP award. The MVP award. He's apologizing to Sunny. So that's the beginning of the relationship. and Sonny comes to the East Coast. And my wife and I, Dedey saw he and Pam, sometimes in New York, on the Upper East Side. But he's kind of on the East Coast because he wants to keep his eye on Kobe, but not be in Philly. So it's not so obvious.

And then you get to the draft, and it's a wonderful story. John Calapari is at the time, the head coach of the New York, that's New Jersey Nets, excuse me. And there's a head fake. And either go back before that, Brian, there's this great moment where, you know it, where Jerry West is in the stands and they have a prime. private workout with Kobe against Michael Cooper, of all people. It was then 41, but he's still Michael Cooper, defensive wizard. And Kobe just schools them in this, in this workout.

Jerry watches it, I say Jerry, like Jerry West watches it for like 10 minutes and says, okay, we're good. We aren't, we got to figure out a way. Aren't tell them, yeah. Got to figure out a way to move up in the draft. They figure out, they make the trade for Vladivich. They get Kobe, well, they have an opportunity for Kobe. And then there's this moment where the New Jersey Nets are going to pick right before the Lakers.

And Calapari's there and his staff is there and it's this great head fake. I don't know, John, I don't know, Cal. He could be going to Italy. You're telling me he'd go to Italy instead of go to the NBA? I don't know. I'm just telling you that's a possibility. And they get Kerry Kittles, who's a great guard, but he's not Kobe Bryant. And so Sonny finds himself like Zeelig, you know, he finds himself in the middle of all this stuff.

But the reason is, Brian and you alluded to it is Sonny McCarroll's word was his bond. When he said something to you, you knew what was going to happen that way or that you could trust the information coming from him. And I think you live in this world far more than I ever have. But you get to know when somebody says, A, it's going to be A. but with other people it could be B or C depending upon how they're working things. All you need to know about Sunny Vicaro is he was in on the ground floor.

I mean the dirt ground floor of Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James. And keep in mind, he delivered, whatever you want to play with the verbiage or whatever story you got, he delivers Jordan to Nike, he delivers Kobe to Adidas and plays whatever role he played,

whether it was a 5% role, or a 28% role in getting Kobe to the Lakers so that and then he's delivering, he is on the verge of delivering LeBron. Now maybe we'll never know how far Nike would have gone. Nike didn't even match Reebok. So, you know, maybe LeBron would have oddly gone with Nike,

but he was on the goal line or the five-yard line or whatever of delivering LeBron to Adidas. And Adidas didn't back him. Adidas didn't back him. I mean, this is a guy who delivered Michael and delivered Kobe. And Sonny said this week,

when we were talking, he goes, LeBron is the perfect endorser for a shoe company because he's so, he's so clean in that way. You know, there's no scandal associated with LeBron. He has been everything

that Nike could have wanted and more. And all Sonny could think about was if that had been Adidas, you know, there might be a difference now in the pecking order in the shoe world. Well, I, I'm running out of time, Armand.

That's okay. My highest recommendation for Legends and Souls, and really my highest recommendation for Sunny Vaccaro, and my highest recommendation for just about anything Armand has done. But if you like Legends and Souls, which I would be stunned that you would not like, and I say this blind, then after you enjoy Legends and Souls,

then go read the Tiger Woods or listen to whatever to the Tiger Woods book. I am so glad that Sunny did this, and I've listened to Sunny and you doing some interviews for this, and I hadn't talked to Sunny in a number of years. And while it was important for me to talk to you, I'm so glad that at age 85, Sunny is still so sharp and that this was able to be pretty. I know. You're absolutely right. All right, man.

Thanks a lot for today. Thank you very much. We'll talk to us. We'll talk to that. Okay. So excited about that book. Truly enjoyed that conversation with Arm and Cotayan. My respect level for Sunny Vaccaro is immense and I believe it's a Hall of Famer.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Bontemps. Thank you to Jackson and Rafa, our producers. Thank you for watching, listening to The Hoop Collective. McMahon, it's your turn to buy me lunch. Let's go.

We'll talk to you next week. Adios amigos.