Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Time For Bucks To Trade Giannis? Tough Decisions For Curry & Warriors + Former NBA Star Joakim Noah Joins!

Episode Date: January 23, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Vince Goodwill and Anthony Slater to talk a brutal week for the Warriors following Jimmy Butler’s ACL tear and if it is time for some difficult conversations about the future of the franchise. Then, the guys break down the state of the Bucks & Giannis as we get closer to the trade deadline including if it is in Milwaukee’s best interest to trade him. Finally, former NBA Star Joakim Noah joins the show to talk his trip to Serbia with Brian and share some stories about Derrick Rose and the Bulls of the 2010’s ahead of D-Rose’s jersey retirement in Chicago this weekend. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome of the Hoot Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday afternoon. Joining us from Detroit, Michigan is Vince Goodwill.

What's up, Wendy? Home of the Detroit Pistons who were on pace for 62 and a half wins, just in case you wanted to know that. That is still insane to consider. Can you imagine you might be leaving Detroit, and that might be where all the playoffs are going to be, like, all year, all spring? Yeah, a couple players have told me I'm coming back in June. There you go. I respect it.

Joining us from the American Airlines Center in Dallas, where he booted McMahon out, is Anthony Slate. This is like McMahon's layer. We had to do an NBA today, today. And I figured we were doing it on the floor, but he said, you got to come up here. So here I am with an interesting scene behind me. What a great nickname for something that where McMahon is a layer. I think that's perfect. Yeah, I see some basketballs bouncing behind you. Who's down there on the floor at this time of day? I saw Anthony Davis with a motorcycle-looking glove doing an individual workout. It's hard for me to tell exactly how hard or not hard he went, but he's on the court with the basketball,

and it's trade deadline season, and he's a name, so it's just a curious sight. Wouldn't it be amazing if he was just with a motorcycle? If he just stopped with a motorcycle, I was like, oh, my God, he's got a motorcycle? Vince, do you remember when the Bucks mascot used to drive a motorcycle around the court pregame was so loud? But maybe he still does. It was so loud, I couldn't stand it. He might. He might still do that.

I know they did that at the last, at the Bradley Center. I feel like they were doing it there at the building that they tore down, as opposed to the FISA form, which was awfully quiet last night. I don't know if you noticed that, Wendy. I did notice it. And we're going to talk about it a little later. Bango is the mascot for the Bucks. And he once brought me a birthday cake on my birthday mid-game. I don't know what I was supposed to do.

It was a very nice job. gesture. I don't know what I was supposed to do with the birthday cake mid-game, but it was a very nice gesture. Thank you to Bango back in about 2005. I was younger than I was in my 20s. All right. Slater, it's been an interesting week and a bad week for the Warriors. Jimmy Butler with the awful injury. Was that Sunday or Monday? Was that Monday? What's today? Today is Thursday. It would have been Monday night against the heat. Wow. It feels like it's been a long time since. then. And then they played the following day against the Raptors and they got blown out by 30.

What's the vibe around the team right now? Deflated. Deflated. You know, it was a bad time for them to have a back-to-back. Jimmy Butler was in the locker room pre-game Tuesday with the torn ACL the next day, you know, as they're just kind of figuring out, picking up the pieces of the aftermath. And in a weird way, it's been reminding me of the inverse of last year at this time when they got Jimmy Butler, prior to getting Jimmy Butler, there was a deflated nature about how they were just kind of spinning their tires.

They weren't going anywhere. They were hovering at 500. And then when they got Jimmy, you all probably remember, Steph Curry went on a surge. It was like 50-point games. You know, probably over the course of a three-week period, he was averaging 35 on an incredible shooting. And they would even talk about, you know, the invigorated passion they were playing with because they saw legitimate contention ahead of them all of a sudden because of Jimmy Butler. That was the All-Star Break where Jemar Green proclaimed they were going to win a championship. What I've seen over the last three days is, like I said, the opposite. With Jimmy Butler stripped from them very suddenly in a very tragic way, right? The way he had to leave the court. You have Buddy Heald and Jonathan can make it dragging him to a wheelchair outside of the locker room the other day. It is a realization of what's really no longer obtainable, at least to this court. We'll see what happens in the next two weeks as far as trade deadline goes.

it seems implausible for them to get some type of roster mix that puts them back in fringe contention. But as of this moment, and you saw it, I thought, the other night against the Raptors, they go down 10-0, they go down 30. Stefan Draymont don't even go in in the fourth quarter, even as the bench units bringing them to single digits, because it almost just looked like, that just wasn't the night for them to play, because there was so much more bigger picture that they were kind of absorbing. Yeah, it sounds like Jimmy was just really devastated by the, of course, you tear your ace still, you're devastated, but he knows how fragile the situation is there. And, you know, of course, Jimmy is vowing to come back and, you know, get back by, you know, early next season, which is not impossible. But any time next season, I think, would be a win. And from what I understand, he intends to rehab, you know, with the Warriors, with Rick Selleabrini, who's very highly respected. I think he, you know, wants to send the message.

I want to, I want to be here. I'm not even going to go be away during my rehab because, you know, I hate to say this, Vince, but, you know, when this injury like this happens and you got the Steph Curry timeline, you know, you wonder. And I mean, look, Mike Dunleave, he got asked. He had a press conference the day after. Mike Dunley, he got asked, in addition to Comangas trade demand, he got asked about trading Jimmy. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. But of course he's going to say no. But the truth is, like, I don't know what's going to happen. Did you see how he said that, though? Because I asked him. I was like, look, De Anthony Mountain Tours ACL last year, you then very quickly, first day he was eligible, traded De Anthony Mountain's contract for Dennis Schrooter, who that he, you then reflipped for. for Butler to make sure you didn't have

just this empty money on your books at this urgent time for them. Would you do that with Butler? And he was like, oh, well, I don't really thought about it, but now that you bring it up, you know, and I use the word, could you envision? He's like, that's, he said it back. Like, I don't envision that, but I do think that's at least Well, there's no way it's the first time

he thought about it. But for sure. It's not very cooth to say, when the guy's laying there in the back, still recovering from the initial tear, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, we could train him. By the way. Mike Dunleavy's former teammate, who Mike is close with, who was the deriving force of the Jimmy Butler trade when there were, you know, aspects, parts of the organization that were apprehensive about Butler. Like, he's the one that really pushed for the Butler trade.

So I think that's like within, you know, I don't know, the context of all this. And former teammates when Jimmy Butler became Jimmy Butler, too. Like that's another part of it where he respects the stature. He respects the career that Jimmy has built. I was in Chicago when Butler was most improved, one of y'all, you know, got to the All-Star game, all that. And Dunleaby was there. And Dunleavy was, Wendy, you might remember this.

He was supposed to be like this final piece having been hurt for most of that season. Like when Dunleby comes back, we're all going to, you know, it's all going to fit together. Jimmy Butler was one of those people saying that. So there is a lot of respect amongst the two of those people. But we see where they are. Like the surge that they've been on up until Jimmy Gassel. hurt, eighth, you're still in the throes of the playing. The Phoenix Sun still have a better record than

you. So even if you get this comminga thing situated where you wind up flipping them for something, even if Jimmy's part of, let's just assume that he's not. But even if he is, it only brings you back to where you were before, which is five games over 500. That's not tenable for where this looks like this team can go this season. I mean, maybe I'm thinking too big picture here, y'all. but are we quietly, like very, very quietly. Like we've been paying attention to Janus. I know we're going to get there and a bunch of other things that have been big picture NBA-wise. Are we watching like not just the slow death of the Warriors dynasty and all that stuff,

but it's going to come to a crashing halt this off season. Like where they're going to have to make some real life decisions about or go to Steph Curry and say, hey, how do you want to spend your final year? Steve Kerr. is not with a contract for next year. Like, there's a lot of questions that go beyond this. Maybe this Jimmy Butler thing just hastens that process. I mean, I think it's already been bleeding to a halt.

Like this, you know, to me, the dynasty died, the day, the, the rapt, you know, the two days where Durant tears the Achilles and Clay tears the knee. Of course, they did win a title later. It's like kind of like the crowning. Yeah, I mean, that 2002 title is one of the most important moments of their whole run. For sure, but it's just, you know, the slow death of the Clay Thompson, the story of like how it split with Clay Thompson and then his departure. Yeah, I would say, I mean, you're there every day, but I would say when Clay left, that was like, what they're like, listen, we can't afford everybody anymore. After Bob Myers, by the way, he was a monster figure in the dynasty and he openly, you know, departed. So we're just seeing like kind of like the fading days of like maybe, you know, compare it to a TV show that had 25 seasons.

and, you know, yeah, we're in the final chapters of it. And I do think it's at least profiling to split off piece by piece by piece. And that was Bob. That was Andre Godalla. That was Clay. Steve is a possibility. We'll see how the next several months looks. Steph would seem to be the final one.

But I think Steph Curry is going to end his career with the Warriors. He's only said he always wants to. And, you know, we'll see what. Yeah, I can't see that. But look, Vince, what I will say is, like, there were, when people envision, like, could, you know, because the Warriors have all of their picks and swaps going forward. Unlike a lot of other teams. And like, look, let's just be honest.

Slater mentioned this on NBA today, today. You know, if you're going to be attracted to picks, it's like I'll look at some Golden State Warrior picks after Steph Curry is retired. Those potentially have value. You know, like when you've got that and you've got, you know, Comingo's still there. And the one thing is, like, people were saying, well, it's going to be hard for the Warriors to trade for a big piece contract-wise without them doing something like putting Dremond in. And like, you know, putting Dremond in, you know, it just doesn't say that they would ever do that. Now they've got the Butler contract. And I know that it's just not something anybody wants to talk about, but they've got the Butler contract and they've got all their picks. So it's possible they got something in there that they could do. What that would be, we got to wait and see. I think everybody's in wait and see mode, right?

Like we've been talking about this whole, you know, everybody keeping their powder dry because of what, you know, Janus wants to do or potentially in how all those dominoes fit in Golden State is just another one of those teams. I think, and Slater has kind of alluded to this and everybody's kind of danced around it a little bit. They just have to have honest conversations with themselves and say, even as great as step still is, is there a player, a single player out there that completely changes you? trajectory where you can squeeze another championship out when all of the teams at the top of the

West are young with fresh legs and ain't afraid of no Steph Curry. And I'm not saying that as a disrespect, but this league moves so fast. And you go from where things were to where things are, where Oklahoma City and San Antonio and possibly Houston or Minnesota, who I think is kind of a sleeping giant in this. I just don't know if there's this one move that's out there, even if you put Jimmy and Kaminga together and you got and you can go and get a superstar and another player. Does that put you in a position where you're more than a second round team? I'm not even sure that's the case. You know, they've been pretty honest that that's okay.

Second round team is okay. Threat. What they did last year, they beat the rockets, which was kind of, I don't know if you considered it an upset, but there were a seven seed out of the play in that took down the rockets that they felt were going to give the Timberwolves a real threat in the second round before the hamstring injury to Steph Curry. You know, Steve Kerr calls it meaningful basketball, whatever. I think they're fine making a trade that doesn't put them in the Oklahoma City tier,

but just puts them in, as you mentioned, you're a final eight team. Maybe you can be a final four type team. Steph Curry's playing important May basketball on ABC. And, you know, we get those afternoon games and he still gets a few playoff moments because that's really what he wants.

And I think they can operate that way and even talk so honestly because their legacies are cemented. They don't need to win a title. Yeah, I know. For some people would say, wait a minute, you're not trying to win the championship?

Like, you don't like, that's like some sort of said. No, they're just trying to, they're just trying to feel the juice. Like, I respect that. I respect it. But it's also why they're not just going to blast out all their post step picks for, you know, you know, Trey Murphy, for example, a guy they are interested in. I guess it just depends on who's available.

It certainly does. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Speaking of, I have no idea what's going to happen between now and when this podcast posts. Maybe nothing. But Vince, you know, this is. is your neck of the woods up there in the central division. The situation in Milwaukee, it's not getting better. And I'm not going to sit here and say that after 12 years, something that happens in a individual game, like, you know, the fans being annoyed and booing Janus is going to make a

difference. Or Jan is saying, you know, that his teammates aren't, you know, they were too young or whatever. I'm not paying attention to small stuff like that. But the direction of this Bucks team is not good. I don't see a way where that that direction is going to materially change. I I mean, they're playing poorly right now. I assume that they will play better. And especially if Yannis doesn't get traded and that's no longer at all on their minds that I do think they would play better after the trade deadline. But this team is not going anywhere this year. And I don't think it's going to materially important next year.

And so when is somebody going to say enough is enough, whether that's Yonis or whether that's the Bucks team? Nobody wants to be the bad guy. Like this is, you know, this is what it is. Like neither one of us wants to be the person to say goodbye. I think that was a Gladys Night song back in the day. That might be actually a little bit before my time. But I think that's what this is, is Janice doesn't want to say, get me out of here. He doesn't want to look like the guy that five years from now when he comes back and he has a jersey retirement and he has a, you know, a statue or maybe more than five years.

He's got plenty of time left. He doesn't want to be the one to leave on bad terms or to feel like he is abandoning the franchise. subsequently every time that Janus has been at an inflection point with the bucks, John Horst has done something. Well, Drew Holiday going to get him for Eric Bledsoe. And then you trade a bunch of picks in the midst of that. And then you trade for Damien Lillard. And we thought that had a lot of runway as far as a two-man duel.

It just didn't happen. Sometimes, guys, is just what it is. Like, we are, and maybe this is sort of the curse of LeBron in the way that we all. feel like the superstars are entitled to play championship basketball with their franchise every single season. And sooner or later, the bill comes due on those micro moves that you are putting up to trade the aging players, to bring in maybe another aging player, but a higher ceiling, and then the bottom falls out on you. Like, Milwaukee actually has good pieces like the Ryan Rollers is, the KPJs, like certain guys like that, you can see.

being good pieces on a championship level team. Just this does not look like a championship playoff contending second round, even giving the first round a scare team right now. This doesn't look like a seven seed in the east. No. This doesn't look like a top 19 team ambassador. Right now they're 11th and look like a 13 right now. Now they may end up being an 8 and maybe they're a frisky 8.

because they got an MVP level player. But come on, guys. I mean, you're not looking at this team saying they can win two playoff, play in games, four games against a one or two seed, and then keep going. Like, you know, that's just not reality. It's just not reality. Is it the 2031 pick their own 2031 they have?

Is that right? I think it's 2031 or 2032. They can trade one, not both. So, again, like, you know, we talked earlier about potentially the post-def Curry picks and their value. I mean, that is a very valuable, particularly of unprotected pick on the market. Which is why they can't really trade it unless they're getting a guy that they think can put them into the conference finals. And who is that player?

Yeah, but I mean, Vinny kind of said it there, but they've been operating in a very desperate, some would call it delusional way, right, with the whole wave and stretch of Liller, the Miles Turner stuff this offseason. Isn't that the question before the deadline? Which road do you take? If you are going to stay on this, you know, save the honest type thing, you could improve your team. I'm not saying to prove it to a level that is realistic. You're infringed contention, but, you know, Zach Levine, you know, name your, I don't know, like high-priced guy who could come in and jolt you a little bit.

I think they can only do more damage to their future. But are we sure they're not going to go down that road? I'm not sure. Nope, I'm not because I think. Here's the question I have for you, Wendy. I mean to cut you, but here's the question I have to just generally. What is Janus going for nowadays?

Like, when we think about the player packages and the deals and everything else, I don't think Janus is going to go for, you know, three first round picks and swaps and matching salaries. Like, it's maybe for the bucks to some degree. They're looking at what they can't get for Janus in today's market and saying the best course of action is, let's roll the dice because it's going to hurt one way or the other. And we'd rather it hurt later than have it hurt now because the market in today's NBA economy doesn't call. for Janus to, you know, a return on Janus to get what we think he's going to get. Okay, so that comes out a couple of things.

Number one, I just want to point something out about the Bucks pick. And I'm guilty of sort of tossing this aside for much of the year, but I'm not going to do it anymore. The Bucks owe a swap this year to the Pelicans. It actually is going to get rerouted to the Hawks. But the team that they're going to swap with is New Orleans. New Orleans, as you know, is not good. that pick may not swap. And if it does swap, it's going to be two, well, hold on.

If the Bucks decide to move on from Janus and go into a tank and they can get their pick, I mean, they're already in 11th place. I mean, I should see, I don't even know where their pick is right now. But, you know, I think they're 3 and 11 when Janus doesn't play this year. So it's not like, you know, it's that difficult. So their pick right now is ninth. Okay. And they are five games out of fifth. Okay. So, and New Orleans pick right now, they got their tied for the worst record with Indiana. So it's very possible that if they trade Janus and shut it down,

that they could really be assured of a pick in the top six, seven. Either it's theirs or it's swapped. Like, let's say they get lucky and hop up into like third or fourth and they swap it out. But, you know, they can get a top pick in this draft with their pick. That's still on the table. That's one thing to consider. Second thing to consider is because this draft is so good, and maybe this is a reason you'd want to wait until the off season. One, you'd want to let the string play totally out to the last fiber. And you could see what the lottery looks like. And you could see maybe where a team might end up, like, you know, Atlanta might end up with that New Orleans pick. Not that I think Atlanta's being down the door for Janus, but like you could.

You could see where Brooklyn ends up, right? You could see where Dallas ends up, you know, like what happens if Dallas completes their show? shutdown and they end up, I don't think that Dallas would do that, but like, you know, you could see, you could sort of see those things, but you could make a try to make a trade with one of those teams and you could end up with two top ten picks. Or because you're going to tank and you feel like you're going to get a high pick anyway, then when you potentially look to see what the Yonis market is, you know that getting a high draft pick may not be the number one priority and getting players and future picks may be the number one priority. And that brings in more teams.

The big question would be, obviously, one, is Janus going to actually ask for a trade, or is he going to stick with what he said and he's not? Is Milwaukee going to move off their position where they're not going to do anything or are they going to examine it? And if they do get to that spot, if they do get to where most other teams feel like they're going to get to, is it going to be open to trade anywhere? Are they going to have to go to Janus and go side by side? I would think they would go to Janus and go side by side. The prickly thing with that is Janus doesn't want to be, you know, known as the guy who said, I want to go to a certain place because that would be away from Milwaukee. So there's this tight pathway, you know.

Janus wants the Luca treatment from, not, I shouldn't say Janus wants this. Let me take that back. Trade it overnight. It would be amazing, for the modern superstar, which you would like to have is the Luca love from Dallas, okay, where every fan in the market still thinks you're the greatest thing in the world. They're wearing your jersey. They're cheering for you when you come back. They love you.

But they don't want the Luca where they don't have any idea they're getting traded. Now, Luca ended up in a place that's a pretty good place. And he was ready to sign a contract extension. How about this? The difference between when Kevin Durant goes to Oklahoma City and when Russell Westbrook goes to Oklahoma City is what you're saying. Right. But the Russell Westbrook thing was greased because Paul George wanted out first. But let's be honest here. The Milwaukee Buck fans, let's say Janus does say,

you know what, at this point I want out, who would actually blame? Like, what reasonable fan and maybe reasonable fan is an oxymoron, right? That's because you get the drip, drip, drip, drip that's happened, right? Yes. If he had done that a year ago, it would have been different. Maybe he should have just, and someone told me this a couple days ago, maybe Janus should have just pushed a lot harder over the summer to go to the Knicks. Well, I think Janis should have done it last summer because I don't think this Bucks team was going anywhere. And I think the Bucks did more damage to themselves by doing the wave and stretch in Miles Turner.

And I think it would have been better for everybody if it happened last summer. That said, I have said on this podcast for a couple of years that I respect that an organization that didn't go to the finals for 40 years after Kareem asked to be traded, wants to play it out to every fiber, the string out to every fiber. and that they're just trying to be incredibly respectful and understanding of the talent that they have. And so I get it. But in a vacuum, I think, last summer would have made more sense for everybody.

I respect teams that go forward. I will say that, Wendy. I respect teams. You know what I mean? Doc's been around too long. What is Doc want to rebuild? Doc wants to, I mean, like, Doc went in and said, I believe we could win with this team.

So they're going to shoot themselves in the foot again at this deadline and throw a pick that could be a top five come 2013 to go get a, like I said earlier. I would absolutely not do that. I would absolutely not do that. They shouldn't, but might they? They might. And Wendy, you would know this better.

Isn't all the current signals right now that that is still their buyers, not sellers is essentially the way to put it? Last week, I was like they're only making, you know, by the way, I said this yesterday on TV and people totally misinterpreted this. When I say a team's making an outgoing calls, it means they're calling trying to get players. Incoming calls is when people want your players. obviously you can make an outgoing call to offer your players,

but generally the turn, I said last night that the bucks have won't even making outgoing calls, and people were like, oh, they're calling offering Janus? I'm like, no, you numb skulls.

All the, everybody's, you know, the aggregation, everyone's, you know, drool is coming down and like, they can't get to their keyboard fast enough,

but, uh, that's another. As far as I know. You should rename this pod, don't aggregate me. Well, that is like the one thing that you absolutely hate,

is I don't know if there's another pet pee, Brian, that you have. And when you preface something by saying, I don't want to get aggregated here. And that's exactly what winds up happening anyway. And maybe there's another pop by the name of don't aggregate me. But I feel like that would be a more appropriate name. Yeah, well, there is. I don't have a problem with aggregation because we aggregate stuff at ESPN all the time. I have a problem with reckless aggregation.

such as the bucks are making only outgoing phone calls. You know, they're not taking incoming calls, which is, you know, that they're not looking to trade Janus. They're trying to acquire players. They're buyers, not sellers. And then it shows up on social media as report, colon, bucks looking to make, to trade, you know, Janus. Or somebody could just use what I just said, you know,

that is reckless aggregation. And that is what is damaging. but that's neither here nor there. But to get to your point, Vince, I don't, you know, you talk to people, I have not heard that the bucks are backing down from wanting to be buyers. I don't have it up to date to this very second,

and maybe it changed in the last three hours, and I'll find out tomorrow, but I have not heard the bucks have changed course. I haven't either. The crazy thing for me is every time they go on like a two or three games scared, I'll get variations of the same text and phone calls saying, almost like they're circling. Almost like the vultures are circling around that franchise waiting.

Yeah, they want to speak your existence. Not even just for Janus. Yeah, just kind of watch what's going on in Milwaukee. Yeah. Like they lost two in a row now. And I never think it's that fragile, but the league thinks it's that fragile. You know what I mean, Wendy? Like there's something to it.

I don't think that John Horse is operating in some, you know, bizarre world or whatever, but the league seems to believe by and large. Not everybody, but a lot of people that I talk to seem to think that every three-game losing street, we're just that much closer to complete blow-up. And maybe things, sooner or later, it's going to, I mean, sooner or later, something's going to happen. I agree that that is, you know, ridiculous when that happens and you say, you know, whatever. But then what, then you say, okay, but we've seen, let me see how we play games they've played. They've played 40, what is the Bucks played? The Bucks have played 45 games now, 43 games, and they're 18 and 25.

You know, on one hand, you know, a three-game losing streak doesn't define anything. But on the other hand, you know, more than half the season when you're seven games under 500 and you're, you know, your game and a half out of the last play-in spot. You know, that's, you know, that your 3-11 when Yannis doesn't play. That's not, that's what defines where your team is. So, all right, well, Vinnie and Slater, thank you so much for taking time out. We're a little shorter with these guys today because we have a special guest coming up. I recorded this a couple days ago with Joe Kim Noah, who is very much looking forward to Derek Rose. How about Derek Rose is getting his number retired on Saturday, Benny?

That is pretty damn cool, to be perfectly honest with you, to watch, to having watched Derek Rose, even the tail end of Derek Rose. Were you in the building when he had the biggest pop I've ever heard in an arena when he, he's He banked that three off the glass against the calves in 2015 on a Friday night. Yes, and they raised them up on their shoulders that his face didn't change expression. He didn't. That was the most, and that was also the most emotion, positive emotion, I've ever seen from Tom Thibito ever. And he damn near ran over a fan pumping his fist because even he didn't believe that that shit went in. Right, right.

So Joe is very, he's very, kind of sort of emotional about talking about Derek and that team, which we'll talk, what you'll talk about right after this. He's attending it, right? He, oh, my God, the whole team is that. Well, his, I don't want to take away from what he said, but yes, the whole Bulls there team is expected to be there. So he'll. And he deserves that MVP. Derek Rose did? Of course he deserved that MVP.

We've relitigated that MVP for some reason, and I don't see why. Well, there are some MVP's that LeBron didn't win that you could make a case that he should have won. I don't think that's one of them. That's not the one. That team won 61 games, I think. And Derek Rose, like, I'm not top of my head. I don't have a research to this second. But, you know, I think he won them like seven or eight games, like with incredible play down the stretch.

Like, he was materially the reason they got the number one seed with his fourth quarter play. And LeBron's numbers dipped that year. His numbers were still awesome, but his numbers went down. So LeBron has some cases for some years where he didn't win the MVP. I just don't think that's one is the strongest. But that was in the prime of his prime. He won four out of five, and that was the one he didn't. So, you know, I can see why.

And, of course, they beat him for one in the playoffs, which Joe talks about. Coming up right now. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. All right. Now joined from Miami, although he're an international man of mystery because you're all over the world. Joe Kim Noah. What's up, Joe Kim? Are you doing, Brian?

Everything, all right? Yeah, man. The last time I saw you was in Serbia a couple weeks ago. Oh, good. And I learned that you pretty much stayed overseas for like a month, and you went to Cameroon where your father is from and where you've invested in youth basketball. So you've, you know, you're a man of the world.

And so I'm not surprised that you're doing, that you're doing stuff like that. Thank you, man. Appreciate that, Brian. Feels good to be home. I'm not going to lie, though. Yeah, that's right. You were saying earlier, it's nice to have Uber Eats. Although, we had some good food in Serbia now. We ended up going to lunch and hanging out with Sasha Pavlovich. And I feel like Sasha Pavlovich, former Cav, he played in the NBA, same time you did. And I think I sort of got the Serbian spirit.

Like we were sitting there at lunch with Sasha. And he goes, oh, I'm right now, I'm on a 72-hour fast, which was like a religious thing he was doing. He's like, oh, yeah, I'll have Rakhia. Rokia bring that with 72-hour fast. So you've been around the world and you're doing this new show, which I'll talk about in a minute. But that was my first visit to Belgrade. What did you take away from your experience? experience there. We sort of were there at the same time. Yeah, that was a really special trip,

you know, and obviously we started a show about six months ago. This was our fourth episode, and we knew that the basketball culture over there was something different and something unique. Never been. I had Serbian teammates, and, you know, I just wanted to check it out for myself, got to see an unbelievable game, Red Star, against partisan, and got to meet a lot of old teammates, former teammates, and just get a feel for the spirit of that place. And I couldn't have been more impressed, more inspired, and it all makes sense. Yeah, so this show, you really want to immerse yourself in these places for a short period of time. And it's about basketball, but it's also about culture. Some of the places you've also gone, you've been to Jamaica,

you've been to Morocco, Serbia. Those are all. very different places. By the way, when I saw you in Jamaica swimming in the water, I was like, if you said to me that Joe Kim Noah is doing an Anthony Burdane style show about basketball and culture, and I could just see you in Jamaica swimming in the water. Like, I was like, this is exactly what I would think

it would look like. But you were totally immersed in, like, you were seeing different sites in Belgrade looking around. I'm looking forward to seeing the episode when it comes out. because I experienced that a little bit too. And this is an interesting career move for you because it makes total sense that you would do this. When you approach these situations, like when you approach Belgrade, like how do you, what are you looking to get out of it? What are you looking to share with the people who are watching?

So we were just over there just looking for driving around Belgrade and, you know, it was, they were basketball. courts everywhere. So we would stop and, you know, play some two on two with some kids and asking some questions. And we're just like walking through the city and I'm just hearing like a, I could hear a practice going on and we just walked in super organically. It wasn't planned. And it was just unbelievable to see these 10 year olds practicing the, the level of coaching, you know, the coach stopping the practice every two seconds. You know, I told you not. to run to the corner, run through the middle, and then you go to the corner,

how many times I have to tell you. And just the way the kids listened to instruction, it was just a breath of fresh air. It was beautiful to watch just, you know, the tutelage. I'm sure the coaches knew who you were, but did any of the, I mean, I've been with you in France at games, obviously your major, everybody knows you there. And a lot of people in Serbia, you know,

There's a big basketball fans knew you. But I assume the 10-year-olds probably didn't know. Did they even know who you were? No, honestly, no. They don't. They never really saw me play. But, you know, they, you know, as soon as I say, look, I played in the NBA for 13 years. I have an experience.

I played against some of the best players in the world. And I played for the Chicago Bulls. You know, now I have their interests and we can have. It's kind of, I actually. like it better when they don't know because I'm able to have, we're able to have deeper conversations. It's not fandom. It's just more, they're more interested in,

because they all have the same dream, wherever you go around the world. Um, wherever you go around the world, the dream for these kids are the same. It doesn't matter where if you're in Morocco or Jamaica or Serbia, you say NBA, every kid has the dream of getting there. So it's just my way of being able to go in there and being able to talk to the next generation. Yes.

By the way, like, were you talking, were you speaking English to these kids and they were picking it up or was there a translation? The coach, the coach, a lot of people spoke English over there. I was actually pretty impressed. That's what I was going to say. I had no problem at all. No problem. Even the kids speak English. So not all of them.

So the coach was translating a little bit. but it was just a very organic moment. You know, it wasn't planned. It wasn't on the schedule. I ended up just walking into a gym and spending an hour with these kids. And look, I'm sure they got an experience out of it, but I definitely got a hell of an experience out of it.

And, you know, obviously, that development, basketball development is so interesting. And their development over there is some of the best in the world. And it was just very interesting to walk into it. a place as grassroots as they come and and see how they teach 10 year old kids basketball. And it was very different than what we see at home. Yeah. And so these are the types of experiences you're looking for on this show Nomad.

And of the episodes that you've done so far, like I'm, you know, Serbia was definitely one of my most amazing experiences. But what are some of the things that you've done that you think are going to be memorable for you that have been in these experiences. I know you did one in Chicago also with Derek Rose. You went back to, did one in Chicago where you played for whatever it was, eight or nine years or whatever.

They're all very unique, all very different, but all learning, learning experiences. I really enjoy, obviously, like, you know, Derek is one of my best friends.

That was probably the easier one to do just because of my comfort level, just having played with Derek for so long and so on. much to say. We spoke a lot about fatherhood on that episode. Yeah, he said he looked at your relationship with your father. He said he never told you this, unless I'm remembering it correctly. But he looked at your relationship with your father, Yonik, as an example of how he wanted to parent his kids. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, it's, our relationship is, is unique, mostly because when he got hurt, we got to spend a lot.

of time together and I think this was a very lonely time for him. A lot of questions. So to be able to, we really bonded during that time when he got hurt. You know, he had a very, very different story. You know, you're coming from Chicago. You come from Chicago. You're the number one pick. You're one of the most exciting players to watch. And all of a sudden, all that is taking away from you with an injury. And, you know, basketball is, is, how we were raised. It's really all we know at that point of our lives. And it's now you have to sit back and wait a year.

I don't think people realize how hard that that moment must have been for him. So to be able to be there with him, talk about fatherhood, talk about, you know, just, you know, we were there was, you know, I introduced. him to Bob Marley during that time. And we were just, it was just, it was very, it was very different. It was just like something that I think was very, our relationship really grew during that time. And one of the most humble superstars that I've ever been around and just so excited for

him, obviously, we have the Jersey retirement coming up. Right. Yeah. Well, so he got honored by the Bulls last year. and that was a special moment and then they're going to retire his jersey here coming up and from what I understand this is going to be kind of

it's for him, you know, number one's going up alongside Jordan and Pippin and on that stuff and that's amazing. But it's also sort of a celebration of those years where you guys were, you had some great teams. You know, you and Derek and Luwold Dang and Taj Gibson And what other bulls am I forgetting in that era?

Kirk, Kirk, Kirk, Kirk, Rick. Kirk, worky, we got the duck, Brad Miller, I mean, and the list drew good. And we had a great, great group. And Brian, I'll say this, look, I was around, I won championships in college. This was a really tight group. And chemistry is always something that, people don't talk about enough. It's always about stats and, you know,

how you get getting paid. But this was a really tight group. And so Derek going up there is, it's not just him. It's just, it's our team. And we didn't win a championship. But so this is our championship. Like our brother, our leader,

our humble leader, our humble superstar is going up next to Michael and Sky. You know, it's, I think it's something that we're all very proud of and nobody deserves it more. And the stories just is so powerful because of all the ups and downs. You know, I think that, you know, through the adversity, we still kept our brotherhood. And that's something I couldn't be more proud of. I was on the sideline for so many of those games. You know, when I was a kid, I grew up outside Cleveland,

and the Cavs had great teams. You know, the guys that are on their rafters, Mark Price, Brad Doherty, Larry Nance. And year after year, they would have like these mid-50, high-50 win teams. And, you know, they would have it would be the two-seat in the Eastern Conference. And they would run up against the guy in Chicago, 23. and they couldn't get past him. You know, he's one of the greatest athletes of all time, greatest basketball player, whatever.

They just couldn't get past them. They had great teams, and they were, they entertained and bonded with an entire generation of Cleveland fans. You know, Brad Doherty is on the broadcast. Now Price was on the broadcast. You know, Larry Nance's son plays for the team. You know, Larry Nance Jr. came back to play for the Cavs

because of his connection, you know, from his father. He was so bonded. to the area he lives there on the offseason, you know? And but they brand it kept running into 23. And so I can appreciate the situation's inverse, Joe, because you guys had these great teams in Chicago. Yeah, that's right. Form, you know, built from, you know, most of you guys drafted.

A few of the guys, you know, you, Derek, Lewall, um, uh, Heinrich, Taj all drafted. A couple of guys came in as free agents or whatever, but basically homegrown, like those Cavs teams were. And you ran into LeBron. LeBron, yeah. I ran into him when he was in Cleveland. You ran into him when he was in Miami.

And you fought admirably and with honor. And you just ran into one of the all-time greats. And so just because, you know, I have a relationship with Brad Dorn. I have a relationship. You know, I got to know Mark Price a little bit. I got to know the Nance family. Like, they are very proud of that time. But they, you know, they couldn't ever quit the banner because they,

ran into Jordan. So you can relate to this in the exact inverse because you guys had a pride about yourself and you went up against LeBron with vigor with pride and tried to beat him and you just couldn't beat one of the best players of all time. That's 100%. That's exactly what it is. And it took a while to come to grips with that. You know, every year it was like we really felt like we had a chance and we, you know, but it's, it's, I can look back on those times and say like, wow, just the blessing of being able to go up against one of the greats. And, you know, just every single day, wait room, training, just thinking about, you know, circling the games on the calendar of when we were going to pick Cleveland,

when we were going to play LeBron, you know. And I think that's the ultimate sign of respect, you know, is just understanding the magnitude of the game and understanding that, you know, to get to where we wanted to get to, ultimately, we had to beat that guy. And unfortunately, it never happened. But, you know, it's, you know, just coming to peace with the journey and just seeing how well he's still playing at 41 years old. And just like looking back on those moments and being able to cherish the competition at the highest level.

You know, and look, I feel like we, we. did our best. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. Adversity, injuries. But, you know, I look back at those times. And, you know, I know in my life, I will never get the feeling of, you know, going to the United Center and playing against LeBron James. Like, it was electrifying. And look, here's the thing, regardless of whether he would ever say, I mean, I'm sure he would say this. He would have taken you on his team in one-tenth of a second. You know, like, for all the Hollywood is held, which I loved, and, you know, like, when you would clap in his face and you would, you know, you would yell at him from the bench.

Like, I loved all that because nobody would, nobody would step to him like that. And the one season, their first, his first year in Miami, I think you guys went three and O against him. That was the 60-win year. That was Derek's MVP year. And then you guys go three-and-o against them. And then you win game one of the playoff series conference. finals. And then that series is just skin tight. It goes down as 4-1, but one of the games in

Miami went to overtime and then game five in Chicago, the heat hit a whole bunch of threes. You guys were ahead. The heat had this hot shooting streak and you guys lost by three. And then the next year, you guys are awesome again. I think the number one seat again and Derek gets hurt the first game of the playoff. And so while I can say, like, you will be remembered as being one of the greatest college teams ever. Like, you've got those two championships. and you'll be remembered as this great Florida Gator and you'll remember it as this great bull and you go around the world.

I've seen you in different places in the world and you remembered and you have that. But also, I know that you've got to be like, what if? What if Derek didn't come down on his leg like that? What if, you know, they shot 45% instead of 55% on threes in game five? Like, I can appreciate that.

Thank you, Brian. You know, it's interesting to see, like, you know, the narrative, people forget the storylines quick. It's all about did you win or did you lose, especially as the time goes on? So like I said, look, you lose in a playoff series of that magnitude, especially when it's that close. You don't sleep for weeks, especially, you know, I mean, I wore my emotions on my sleep. It was just, it was as tough as you can imagine to lose those series.

And yeah, there is some what-ifs. you know, what if they didn't get hurt and, you know, people come up to me all the time with that. And you know what? To see our guys be at peace and to see Derek be at peace with his journey, that to me is something that I'm more proud of than anything. I see there's a lot of championship teams out there that they don't even like each other. You know, they don't. That is so accurate. And they don't protect the work that they put in

And they don't protect the brand at all costs And I think that we have this thing where Yeah, it wasn't perfect. There were, you know, there were issues. But we protect those times Because we cherish those times, Even though we didn't win and there is some what-ifs. There has to be gratitude in living out our dreams

And we were kids. We had dreams of playing at the highest level. And we all did that. And we did it with a group that we actually enjoyed each other. We just, I mean, I have stories for days with those guys. It's a real brotherhood. It is so true because, look, I know that they're, ring culture. Like, I know rings are so important.

And ring culture is, you know, it is what it is. But, like, there is some, you guys entertained a generation of Bulls fans. And, you know, I think your partner, Matt, was telling me, when you went to Abu Dhabi last year, you ran into a Bulls fan and who lived overseas. And, you know, he's, you know, not an American, basically. I don't remember where he was from. He said he had two kids. One kid he named Rose, his daughter, he named Rose and his son he named Noah. And because for that, for those years, like, if you were a Bulls fan, regardless of where your team exited,

you were for months on end totally engaged in that team. And the way you guys played and the way Tibbs coached you guys, you know, it was a classic example of the head coach and the mentality, although I'm sure, you know, famously you guys wore each other out. But, you know, the mentality all worked together. Like that doesn't, it doesn't go to zero because you guys lose a playoff series. You know, what about all of those years and months, whatever?

So that's sort of my, exactly my philosophy. I appreciate that. And even Ted's, Like, even what you were saying, it was like, even what you were saying about Tibbs, like, look, it didn't, when it ended, it wasn't pretty. But the fact that, you know, Tibbs will be there at, at Derek's retirement celebration and that, like, okay, like, you know, and families, there's issues. But, you know, you reconcile and everything is going to be, like, we're going to cherish this moment because it's not just there going up there. it's for all of us. And it's something that I couldn't be more proud of.

Like, I can't wait to see all those guys and be able to talk about, you know, those times. So it's not, obviously, there is some what-ifs, but, you know, it doesn't, it's not who we are. We walk in gratitude and we cherish those moments. So while we were sitting in Belgrade having lunch with Sasha Pavlovich, which I look forward to, know how much of that interview you'll use in the show because you know you keep these shows

relatively tight it's one of the things that's good about them it's there's a lot of stuff going on these episodes um they're like 15 20 minutes or whatever um but sasha you know is a guy that i knew was a cab and you were talking to him about the serbian mentality and how you know the server mentality sometimes is knowing you're going to lose and and you know budding your head into the wall even knowing you're going to lose you know that was some of the stuff you're talking about And so I was just fascinated watching you learn about the survey mentality. And you said to me, you're like, hey, man, I think I'm going to go to Cleveland and do a nomad show from Cleveland. And like, so I like sat back in my seat because at one hand I was like, wow, wow, you're going to do this.

And on the other hand, I was like, of course you are. This is the point of the show. And I said, okay, if you do it, you have to go in the winter. You can't go in July. You know, you have to see Cleveland when it's raw. Not that you don't know what's like to be in the winter from New York City, played in Chicago,

but, and you're like, so you're planning on doing it. So you are going to, you know, you're going to do this thing with Derek, but you are planning to go shoot an episode in Cleveland coming up.

And in case people don't remember, I know that many of them will, but you obviously had those comments in the playoffs in 2010. And the time and place of that, Joaquin, is like, Cleveland is petrified correctly

that LeBron's about to walk. And, you know, he's going to walk for New York. He's going to walk for Los Angeles. He's going to walk for Chicago. He ends up walking for Miami. So Cleveland is self-loathing on an average day. They are petrified that their favorite son is walking to a bigger market, a more glamorous market. And you are in the middle of a battle and you basically say, you know, you say Cleveland isn't a place to go on vacation, which is accurate. People don't go on vacation to Cleveland. And so one of the reasons why everybody got their backup. And, you know, naturally because it's a place.

playoff series and the other team is hated for those two weeks or whatever is because Cleveland was so scared. Now, I don't know if that'll translate 15 years later, but part of it was a time in place. But I think it's amazing that you're planning on doing this. I appreciate that. You know, it's just, I think it's time. It's, you know, people, I was walking in the airport the other day and I'm sitting down. I got my music. I'm waiting for my flight. And somebody knocks me on the shoulder, like, hey, man, I'm from Cleveland. And he had a lot to say. And he had a lot to say.

And, you know, he was talking with like a lot of passion. And, you know, it's what you said about Cleveland. I was like, dude, it was 20 years ago. Like, you know, at some point, you just got to let it go. And the truth is I don't know that much about Cleveland. All I know is the battles. And when I said it, you know, you could tell I was, we had lost the game. I was bitter.

That's right. We had to go back and play a game to in that building, which was nuts. And but people really gravitated. I mean, I went to a party at All Star. They stopped the music. The DJs like, hey, man, I'm from Cleveland, man. So it's definitely something that's stuck to people in a lot of ways. But I don't think people also understood the context.

For me, it was just like, you know, you're playing against LeBron James. And, you know, what, it was a time for us to just, like, kind of take a stab at him. Like, oh, we're not scared and we're just going to keep battling. And it's like, you know, it's your city against my city. And this is how we're going to do it. But it still resonates with people 20 years later. And, you know, right now, like I said, it's all about reconciliation and being able to learn about different places. And I made those comments not knowing anything about Cleveland,

except for the basketball arena, to be honest. So I think Cleveland's in a really good place. They got a really good team. I love Coach Agasson. You know, Mowbly's a hell of a player. So I love watching Cleveland play. So hopefully we can go to a game and explore a little bit. And maybe I'll have some different feelings about the city.

I think it's going to be tremendous because, number one, I know how these shows are. I saw how you were operating in Serbia. And I actually think people are going to really embrace it. And here's a thing. Like, again, everybody in Cleveland's got their backup. Like, when you come there and like, I'm not saying it'll be 100% for everybody. But they're going to, I think people are going to appreciate it, you know,

especially since you're, I don't know when you're going in January or February, but, you know, like, that's when you should see it. And so I think it's awesome that you're doing it. And the thing about it is, like, the people viscer reacted to you because of how difficult for the opponent you were. And that series, it was 4-1. That series was 4-1, but again, it was a lot closer than that. And in that particular moment, it was almost a showcase for where the Bulls were going as a team

than it was like anything. And you guys won 60 games the next year with the number one seed. Like, you guys were definitely on the rise. And so, yeah, I'm just like, I think it'll be a. great episode. I'm so glad you're doing it. Obviously, you could... Any recommendations? Yeah, I mean, I talked to Matt about it. But first off, Cleveland is a very ethnic city, you know? There's a lot of places in Cleveland that even generations after their families, you know, immigrated, that there's still very ethnic sides of it. And I think that's

perfect for you. And also, I know that you're a man of culture. You've seen the world, you know, And I'm not, you know, when I compare Cleveland to, when I talk about Cleveland, like right now, so I've lived in Miami. I've lived in New York City. I'm obviously from the Cleveland area. I've been all over the world. I live in Omaha, right? So, you know, that's my perspective. When I talk about the art scene in Cleveland, I am not trying to say that it is going to rival Paris.

You are, you're not going to walk into Cleveland and say, oh, this is reminiscent of the Louvre. You're not going to walk into Cleveland. and say, oh, this is neck and neck to MoMA in New York. But there are some places in Cleveland, the theater district and the arts district, you know, with the museums that are not, you know. And the other thing about Cleveland is like there are some neighborhoods there that, you know, Cleveland is past, you know, I hope I'm not thrilled for this. Cleveland is probably not in its prime. It's past its prime. But there are some areas that were built in the prime.

where Cleveland was one of the best places in the country. And so you can go there and be like, look at this neighborhood. Like, this neighborhood is as beautiful as any neighborhood you will see in a winter city in a lot of places. So I think you're going to enjoy it. I'm not saying you won't get somebody won't as yell out of a car on the way by, but that's who you are. Like, that's, you didn't put, the way you played basketball, you knew you were going to ruffle some feathers. You were going to upset some people. And so I think it's a perfect thing.

Yeah, it's going to, I'm not, I'm excited. I'm excited to just spend some time with the people over there and hear their perspectives on Cleveland. And I don't know. I just feel like it's going to be, it's exciting. We're going in a couple weeks and I'll come back with some stories. All right. Well, thank you, Joaquin, for spending some time with us. I know you're always off on another adventure.

I hope you have a great experience with Derek on the Jersey retirement. And I got to say, like the Surby episode, Like, people on my podcast have heard about my visit to Serbia. Joaquin was there for the game and everything, but also literally cannot wait for that. And like Cleveland is coming up. And if you want, and while you're waiting for that, you can go see him with the Derek when he went to Chicago. And also when he was hanging out in Jamaica and in Morocco, this is a great project for you. Like, this is so much better than you sitting next to me analyzing, you know, the first half of a game.

Even though I would welcome you with me at ESPN at any time, this is so in your lane. So I'm, this is really cool. Appreciate you. All right. We'll see you soon, somewhere in the world. Take it easy, man. Man, I love that conversation with Joachim Noah, man. I'm so glad he did that.

We had a great time in Belgrade. That episode, I think, is coming out soon. So we'll give you an update on when it is. And, you know, he was kind of emotional talking about Derek Rose there, especially. I liked what he was talking about, um, how. their team, even though they didn't win, they got blocked by those great LeBron teams, that that team is still really connected and that, you know, connected more than some teams who won championships. So I thought that was cool. All right. Thanks again to Slater. Thanks again to Vince

Goodwill. Thanks again to Mark Devon and Jackson, our producers. Thank you for watching, listening to the Houp Collective this week. We'll be back next week.