Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Training The Biggest NBA Stars & Is Ant Edwards The Face Of NBA??

Episode Date: February 19, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Ramona Shelburne and NBA Skills Coach Drew Hanlen to talk Drew’s new book, training the NBA’s biggest stars, helping Tatum fix his shot, what we don’t know about Joel Embiid and more. Plus, the comment from Anthony Edwards that Ramona thinks deserves more attention. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which you're doing on Tuesday night. Joining me from Oklahoma City, where he's there on a mission.

But we're really happy to have him. He's here promoting a book, which I would love to hold up. But this is a Disney property, Drew. So I can't hold it up. It's called Stop BSing yourself, except for it doesn't say BSing. I guess I could have made Jackson, like, pixelated out. Anyway, I want to, you call yourself a skills coach. Other people seem to call you a trainer.

Drew Hanlon, skills coach to the stars. What is your official title, Drew? To be honest with you, I'm kind of a little bit of everything. I'm part-time trainer, part-time therapist, part-time best friend, part-time, you know, propaganda machine on Twitter to shut down, you know, bad rumors of my client to pick up for them. So I am basically the guy that is trying anything and everything to help my players on and off the court at all times. Yeah.

So Drew has, how many NBA players do you working with now? Like 20 or something? 12 full-time guys. 12 full-time guys. Well, go through your list so people know, you know, your bonafides are known. People who know, no, but I, but let's just establish. We got a lot. We got a lot of them, you know, from Joel to Jason to Brad Beal to Zach Levine to

Tyler Hero, Trey Murphy, Janice, Chet, I'm trying, R.J. Barrett, Tyrese, Tyrese, Tyrese Halliburton, you know, the list goes on and on. But the thing that I think is cool is, I think in today's day and age, there's a lot of trainers that end up working out guys when they're in their certain cities. But for me, these guys are full time. You know, I've been with Brad and Jason since they were 13 years old. I've been with Zach Levine and RJ and Joel and all those guys before they ever played an NBA game and been with them throughout their career. And then during the season, I'm traveling to them, hence why I'm in Oklahoma City right now. And then also, after every game, I'm providing film work for them and analytic, you know, work for them.

So it's not just like the rebounder that passes to really good players. It's like we're doing film studies. We're working on the mental side of things. We're working on strategic side of things. And then also, you know, digging into the basketball game as well. So it's a, it's kind of a full service moment of, you know, doing anything and everything I can to help these guys out. Yeah.

Well, and your book is really, I mean, would you call it a self-help book as well? I mean, it's, it's about basketball that you tell basketball, some basketball stories in there. But that's life, it's a life coach book, which I'm sure you're doing some of that too for these guys. That's what it's all about. To be honest with you, it doesn't matter how good at basketball you are if you don't have the confidence to use that. And so for years, I've helped my players, you know, overcome plateaus and be able to, you know, get past the doubts and insecurities that everyone faces no matter how good you are at sports. And so that's really what the book is. It's, you know, I've used this process to help a ton of of guys become all-stars, become all-MBA players, MVP, scoring title, assist title, all those things. But then when I help my dad use the exact same system lose 90 pounds in a calendar year,

I was like, okay, listen, I'm doing a disservice not to share this system and the strategies with everybody. And so that's when I finally, you know, put pen to paper and, you know, 120,000 words end up becoming a 40,000 page book that, you know, I'm really proud of. And Ramona Shelburne is with us from L.A. as well, I know you've known Ramona for a long time. I don't know if she's ready to come on the microphone yet, but we'll get here here in a second. Oh, there you are. Okay. Hey, what's up?

What's up? How are you? Anyway, Drew, yeah, so Drew, like, I call them to give an example of what's in this book. So there's a story in the book where you talk about how, I don't remember what year it was, but like four or five years ago when Bradley Beale was with the Wizards. He had averaged like 25 points a game and you were like, I'm going to, Brad, I want you to average 30 this year. And Brad was like, uh, it's like nobody averages 30. There's been like 20 people average 30 in the history of the game or something like that. And you were like, no, but what I need is I need one, you need one more attempted three a game,

one more attempted two a game and one more free, you know, one more shooting foul, one more, two more free throws. And the way that you go through that process about how you goal set and you break goal set down differently, like I assume that this is the kind of stuff that you do with players regularly. By the way, he average 30 the next two years. But you discuss stuff like that in storytelling within that book. So much is mental. You don't mean, so much is mental. You know, you and I were talking off camera, you know,

down here in Oklahoma City with Chet, you know, Chad coming back to a team that, you know, he was playing at an all-star level, you know, before he got hurt and injured. He was impacting winning on the defensive end as well as offensive end. Now he comes back to a team that's a number one seed. You know, there's mental challenges with that. You want to one, be as dominant as you were so that you can, you know, contribute to him, you know, winning as much as you can. You also know that for the ultimate goal to happen of winning a championship, you have to be at best, but you also don't want to come in and step on toes and ruin the system that's been working and that's led them to, you know, this dominant performance this far in the season. And so

that's what it's about. It's about helping these guys, you know, get so mentally sharp that they have the confidence to do whatever they need to do to impact winning at a high level. And so there are times where it's individual like Brad where he knew Washington wasn't a contender. He needed something to motivate him night in, night out. And so his challenge was how great can you be individually. There's other times where it's like, Chet, how can you impact the game without getting the volume, the touches, the usage that some of these other stars at your age, at your skill level, at your capability get. And so, you know, as much as people think, oh, it's easy. He plays on a great team. All he's got to do is just go out there and play hard and everything will figure

itself out. It's hard when you're looking over your shoulder and saying, well, I'm getting, you know, there's 78 players in a league that are shooting more field goal attempts than me, but I know that I'm not the 78th best player. That's hard for young players. It's hard when you're looking and you're going, man, every single time I play against Wemby, you see, we're right there neck and neck. But Wemby's getting all this, you know, this, you know, opportunity.

And he's being able to be a franchise leader, whereas now I'm asked to come in here and shoot 11 shots a game, which is a lot different role. And so I think being able to really balance that is part of my job. It's not just showing somebody how to shoot, how to dribble, you know, on film where they can be more aggressive. and I think that's something that fans don't understand is that NBA players go through the exact same stresses and struggles and insecurities and doubts that everyday people go through. It's just theirs are all magnified because they're on TV and people are talking about all of their, you know, stresses, struggles and insecurities online.

Yeah, I've said this before that based on my knowledge of being around NBA players and I'm not a NBA player, I'm not in the locker room, you're closer to them, their actual work, daily work. But if you could take away the money and I realize that's a gigantic statement. If you could take away the money, what is stresses an NBA team is the same thing that stresses an eighth grade basketball team. He won't pass me the ball. The coach doesn't like me. The coach won't play me. I don't like this guy. I got an issue with this guy because of this girl.

You know, I want to be on that team. Like the, just like the basics of the game are the same. It's been my experience that the basics of the challenges of an NBA team are not that different from a high school team. other than the fact that they're all driving $200,000 cars, wearing $200,000 in jewelry, you know, and our global icons. Other than that, if you break it down, Drew, it's on a basic level, you know.

And just like on a basic level, by the way, parents are pissed off at the coach. Yep. Agents are pissed off at the general manager. Like, it's not really that different. And so the challenges that you're dealing with players going through or challenges that you've dealt with them probably when they were teenagers. And to be honest with you, it gets heightened as you get up the levels.

And so I always try to tell people this. I heard this one time, a long time ago, and I've used it with so many of my clients. But I say, when you picked up a basketball for the first time when you were younger, you picked it up because you loved the game of basketball. You didn't pick it up because that was your job. You didn't pick it up because that was what you were chosen to do. It wasn't that something that that's what you got paid to do. You picked it up because you loved basketball.

basketball. If you can just look at the sport of, I play basketball because I love it, but then I get paid to deal with all the BS that goes around it, then you'll understand like, okay, you're signing up to get paid $50 million to deal with, you know, the negativity, the stress, the, you know, the coaching, the opportunity, the, okay, we can do that. If your job is a deal with that for $50 million, $30 million, that's a great job to have. But then you get to play basketball because you love it. And so that's what I try to do is I try to get people to, you know, tap into that younger child that literally love the game of basketball. And so many players end up losing that love for the game. They end up losing that same drive that they had when they were younger.

And that's when everything plateaus. That's when everything starts going south. And so really, that's part of it is tapping into that younger child that used to, you know, smile going to the gym, that used to love being able to just compete with their friends on a playground. and if you can really tap into that, that's when you can really get the results. And so, I mean, that is what a lot of my job is doing. It's making sure that these people are finding inner peace in here because most of slumps that you see that occur on the court, start off the court.

And a lot of times if you don't see a player that's struggling, I always, the first thing I always do is when I facetime a guy or when I'm, you know, talking about another player, I'm like, I wonder what's really going on. You know what I mean? You don't just forget how to shoot a basketball. that that just doesn't happen. There's other things that are going on that have, now you can't have the clarity that you need. Now you can't have the focus that you need.

Now you can't have the confidence that you need. And that's what leads to some of the things you see on the court. And so, you know, that's what I think is cool about some of these documentaries now that are tapping into, you know, some different sides of people and stuff like that. When you can actually see, you know, what's going on behind the curtain, you're like, oh, now I get it. You know, now I get it. And, you know, the last thing that I'll say about this is I think it's important for fans to understand. But in an average NBA season, let's say a player plays 70 games. You know, they miss 10 games, 12 games for injuries and sitting now for load management,

et cetera. If they play 70 games, 10 of them, they're going to be really good. 10 of them, they're going to be really bad. And then 50 of them, they're just going to be average. And fans don't understand. That means 60 out of the 70 games that they play. They're just whatever that night. There's only 10 special games that year.

And so fans don't like that. Fans want them to be at their best at all times. but I'm like, everyday people don't go to work and like excel and break their, you know, their sales record every day and they don't break their quotas every single day. And people don't go in and just eat the perfect meals every day. It's like there's a lot of average. And I think that's something that I think is important to realize as well. So Drew, one of the things that I love watching is your Instagram page all the time where you,

it's always wheels up to whatever city. And then I'm just guessing which star that you're going to see. And because we've known each other for a while, like, you know, you have certain players who you call and you say, I need to come and see you. Then you have other players who call you and say, I need you to come here right now. Who are your needy players?

Who are the ones that you call, right? Who are the ones that if you don't call them, they won't call, and they'll be in a slump for two months. And you're like, I can help. What's going on? I would say they're all needy. They're all needy, but different needs. Name names.

Drew, come on. I know who they are. That's what I would say. I would honestly say they're all need in different ways. Like there are some players like I've been with Brad Beale since he was 13 years old. That means, you know, we've been together for what, 17, 18 years now. So the guys like him are always going to fight before they reach out to me. They're always going to be like, all right, I'm going to try to figure it out on my own, you know, it's giving me all these tools and resources. He's not going to make the call until later on. There's other guys that like after one bad night, it might be like right after the game before they've even taken a shower after media that are on FaceTime like, yo, book your flight. I need you tomorrow. But I know you want

names, but I know who the names are. You know the name. So I would just say that everybody's different. And it also depends. Like, you know, my job is to honestly put myself out of a job. Like, if I do a good job, I'm trying to give them all the solutions for all the problems. I'm trying to build their mental resiliency where they don't need me. But then they obviously want me because they trust me enough to help them through whatever problems are experiencing on the court. Okay, so I'm going to name names. Joelle and Bede is the guy that calls you after every game, right? That's the guy that you're there in the lab all the time, and it's the unseen hours.

Like, people may not see what you guys are doing, but like you guys are constantly, constantly working on whatever he's trying to work through. To be honest with you, Joel, I mean, that's where I always read it to him. I think that, you know, I've been recently fighting for him in a time where nobody really is fighting for Joel. Just because I think that, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, he's, lazy. That's why he's, you know, injured right now is because he's lazy. And I always have to rewind back and I say, guys, this guy picked up a basketball at the age of 16. And, you know, you've seen the viral clips of him playing JV basketball down in Mountford, catching the ball, taking a dribble,

jumping up and being like, oh, shoot, I'm behind the backboard. And now fast forward, a decade later, he's a, you know, a scoring champ, an MVP, one of the most dominant players of all time. I'm like, you don't magically become really, really good at basketball. One of the most skilled players ever. from that size ever. And I would argue that there's very few people that could state claim to being like the most dominant two-way players of all time. And I would say, when healthy, at their best, Joel has a case to argue against anybody, you know, and you look at whether it's points per minute where I think he's still leading, you know, all time, whether it's points per game, where he's up there in the top five still, whether it's, you know, dominance on the defensive end, which he doesn't get

as much credit as he probably deserves for. Like when you take him off the court, you see Philly's numbers just tank. And when he's on the court, they do really well. And then even the other day, it was funny. I was talking to Kevin O'Connor's and Kevin O'Connor's, you know, was basically, you know, given Joelle trouble for his playoff numbers and stuff like that. And I was like, while I do agree, he has not got the job done, I go, Kevin, have you actually looked at what Joe L has done like plus minus wise? And he goes, what do you mean? Here are the numbers. Joel in the playoffs. Remember, everybody hates on his playoffs. When he's on the court, they are a plus 7.5. When he's off the court, they're a,

minus 8.2. So I'm going, that is a 15 and a half point swing. He's not the one that is building the team around him. So yes, Ramona, I think that there's players like that. Jason's another one. I talked to him almost after every single game. You know, Halliburton, it's all the time, you know, now because he's really trying to focus on being more aggressive because he knows that helps his team win. But I mean, I think it's all the guys. I think the thing that makes these guys so special is that there's always another level. And that's what the guys that I choose, to work with, you know, or constantly striving for is trying to find those next levels, next, you know, things that seem impossible, but they keep chasing them and so they eventually

get them. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. I think the thing with Jason that was interesting is Jason was like your second client, right? It was Brad Beale first and then Jason number two? Yeah. And he's a little younger, obviously, than Brad. But when you first started working with Jason, and I feel like I was the narrator of this section of starting five.

the knock on Jason was, is he too nice? Like, does he need to be more of a jerk? Does you need to be more of a Kobe style out there on the court? And when they finally won the championship, it wasn't because he was meaner or more ruthless or whatever it was. It was because he actually sacrificed more. He kind of gave himself over to that. How did you get him to that place?

It felt like you were chasing one goal, but then when they finally got down to the end, it was actually a different pivot. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest, thing is Jason just wants to impact winning. You know what I mean? And that's all he's ever been after. The other day, I actually did a book signing in Boston with Jason. And we showed some Kobe, you know, footage of him working out. And we showed some, you know, high school clips. And we told some high school stories about him developing his mentality. You know, one of the really cool ones

was junior year in high school. He loses a state championship because he literally had one shot in the last 12 minutes, you know, and I detail it in the book a little bit more. Then the second year comes back. He's in the state championship. He actually had 27 points. The other team had 26 points. points at halftime. And so I think that you can dominate and kill without having to broadcast it. And one of the cool things that Jason said at the book signing that I thought was awesome because he didn't say this before to me was he's like, everyone thought that when I won the championship, I was going to be on the podium, having receipts and basically putting up a middle finger to everybody that doubted me, everybody that criticized me, everybody that-

That's what you should do it. You have every right to do it when you get to that spot. And he was like, to be honest with you, at that moment, I realized I was never playing to prove them wrong. All I've been doing in playing to prove all the people that have supported me, sacrifice for me, prove them right. And I think that's what makes it so cool about Jason is he knows all of his fans want him to just go out and be selfish and chase MVP's and scoring titles. And trust me, if you put him on a bad team, he could do all of that stuff. He's that good. He's that talented. And he does have that much of a, you know, a- He's having a great year, by the way.

But what Jason knows is, hey, I might have to sacrifice now so I can succeed later. There's going to be games where you guys want me to take over, but I don't want to lose my teammate in the process. And I know I'm going to need them to win. And so, you know, there are nights where I'm trust me. I'm frustrated too, you know, when his usage is down. We know when his usage is up. We've seen the correlation between him having the ball more and them winning. But also, the only thing that matters is winning championships hanging banners.

And last year, the Celtics did so in a dominating fashion. And sometimes it meant Jason just, you know, commanding double teams and passing out of it. You know, other times it meant him accepting doubles. instead of trying to beat doubles. And it didn't matter. The result was that they won a championship. And that's what he ultimately is about. It was about winning championships.

He knows guys like Kobe and Shaq. They only won one MVP. That doesn't mean that they weren't one of the best players of all time. It just meant they only won one MVP, but they won multiple championships. And that's what Jason's trying to do. Well, if they win this year, though, Drew, and after everything that happened with the Olympics,

and O'Brien had a front row seat for that, you think there's not going to have the, you know, standing up on the podium with I won't my damn respect to, no? I think at the end of the day, he's 26 years old, has a Hall of Fame resume already at 26. He's going to keep stacking up, you know, first team, all NBA, first team all NBA. He's going to make first team all NBA again this year. There's going to be a time, and I don't know when, but there's going to be a time when fans look up and go, oh, wait, what?

Like, look at his resume. He's one of those guys. And I really do think that Jason will go down as one of the all-time greatest basketball players ever when it's all said and done. And so until then, we're just going to let them keep judging the results and keep Hayden on you know, all the success that he's having. You mentioned before you, you're in Oklahoma City right now working with Chad Holmgren during the All-Star break. He's coming off of an injury. You mentioned how you've worked with Joelle.

He's had to come off of injuries. I think you said in the book, by the way, you played college basketball at Belmont, which is known for their mid-major success. How was the teams when you were there? It was like 2010. We were dominant. We went to a couple NCAA tournaments. My junior year, we actually broke the NCAA record for largest margin of victory in a season. We went 30 and 5 that year. And I think our margin of victory was over 20 points a game because we're blowing out. And you shot a lot of threes, right? You were ahead of the curve on shooting trees?

Yeah, it was crazy because I actually was at the top of the country. So I was 17th all time still to this day in three point percentage. My senior year, I shot 48.2%. But that was on seven and a half threes a game. And I look back and I'm like, man, I was shooting a lot of threes back before. Everybody was shooting a lot of threes. but they definitely let us let us let them fly for sure. But you had, I think you said in the book, you had four, you've had four knee surgeries.

Correct. And we see in your videos, you're still, you can still dunk it. You can still throw it down at 5 foot 11. I believe it's what you're listening. It's one of those things, I'll tell you this. I've went through so many injuries, both me personally and me helping guys return to play. You know, Zach Levine had a major knee surgery. And I remember him getting tested at a 46 inch vertical, 46.

after he got his surgery. And in workouts, he still wouldn't dunk because he didn't trust it. And people were like, why is he not out there? He's healthy enough. He just tested it at 46 inches. I'm like, you guys don't understand it. It's not just health. It's health. And then also you have to trust that your health is there. And then you have to repattern and program it so that you build back that, you know, you see a gap and that you're used to hitting. If you don't trust that push off that explosion, now you're going to be a little hesitant. And now you're playing a different way. And so there's that mental side of it too. And so I remember with Zach, you know, there was a drill we used to do where he'd have to go dunk it on me. And I'd say, don't worry.

I promise you, I'm going to get out of the way. And he'd be like, okay, he'd lightly do it. And then I'd be like, okay, dunk harder. Now bump me and then dunk it. And now I'm going to jump up and contest. But I promise you, I'm going to get out of the way. And eventually you build that confidence back. Then there's also the side of, you know, getting back cardio wise, which is another hard thing. You know, people that criticize Joel sometimes when he comes back. I'm like, you guys realize that like he's been out, you know, for a couple of weeks and he comes back and drops like a 30, you know, 30, 10 and 5. But they're like, he looks lazy, he looks sloppy. I'm like, he hasn't played basketball for three weeks, you know, and then he just comes out to the court.

He drops 30, 10, and five. And then, you know, so it's like, do you want to overwork and then you're injured or do you want to, you know, not underwork, but do you want to, you know, load manage? Use your kind of, you know, you're playing out there in the games when it matters. That's hard too. And then you have the last aspect, which is like somebody like a Chet where he goes through kind of an injury where he goes up and blocks a shot. He gets hit the chest. Freak injury. Totally freak injury.

And those are things that occur all the time where now you have to, you know, now next time he goes to block a shot, what do you think he's thinking about? You know, and so you have to make sure you give yourself the confidence in that regard. So, you know, this is my 22nd year covering the NBA. And one of the biggest things I've learned in that time frame is the sensitive nature of injuries. And I live in a world where there's a demand, when is the player going to be back? Yeah. Or if the player is getting close to coming back. Is he coming back on Friday?

Is he coming back on Sunday? And one of the things that I've learned in talking to teams and players who are dealing with injuries over the years, I've never had any surgery. Lucky for me, you, you know, Ramona was a college athlete. She played college softball. She's had a back injury. She's had back surgery. So she could know. But I have had such, and I sometimes I may fall short of this, but I,

have such a sensitivity to players who are coming off of major injuries and what they're dealing with. And I just have to imagine that as you're talking about, like you're working with building Zach back up after a bad knee injury. The process, I mean, most players, if they get 10 years in the league, they're going to have had a significant injury, they're going to have had a surgery, and being able to play after and return back to the strength, like to me, that probably is an area where you have to do some of your most important work. 100% it's it's about building the confidence about building the trust it's also um you know you looking at the game and analyzing you know are there tweaks and adjustments we have to make so that you can prevent

injuries there's some freak injuries like you know like the joel one for instance everyone always talks about like oh in the playoffs he's been injured i'm like yeah one time he got elbowed by pascal siacum one time markel fultz ran into his face and he broke his hand one time he broke his head one time he broke his finger one time he went and chased down a block these are not cardio related injuries these are not preventable. The meniscus injury that he had last year was a weird fall. You know what I mean? So if there's cardio-related injuries, I'd be like, okay, I agree. Like, you know what I mean? He didn't do anything to prevent those, but they're not. A lot of times they are freak injuries. And that's what the majority of injuries are, to be honest with you, is, you know, freak injuries. There are some people

that are overweight or out of conditioned and that leads to, you know, you being off balance or you doing that kind of stuff. But, you know, to answer what you were talking about, I think the most important thing is getting them back where they feel physically comfortable with themselves, and then they feel confident enough to perform at the level that they know they need to perform. Because what you don't want to do is go out there when you're not ready. And then now it starts messing with your confidence as a player. Am I no longer good? Am I no longer capable?

And that starts getting you in a phone. It's the second time you've mentioned guys questioning whether they're still good. Like, it sounds like that's a conversation that you have to have. I tell people all the time that the reason slumps occur is because you start overthinking or over correcting. You know, it might be something where you miss a couple shots and now you start tweaking with your mechanics and you're going, why? Like you knew that old mechanics worked, but they start over correcting or they start overthinking. They start doubting themselves. They start second guessing themselves. They start, you know, and that happens all the time. And I really

don't think that fans understand the mental side of the game, you know, and there are times where injuries are real. And there are times where players play through stuff. Like I always joke around, you know, specifically with Joel, I'm like, one day when he tells this story and people, actually realize what he, you know, all the work that he's put in and all the things that he's played through, people are going to be like, well, if you just told us, who would have been on your side? Like, we had no idea. Well, I do think that's an issue. Like Philadelphia is very, you know, Joelle himself, Ramona knows this. Joelle is protective of his health status, which is certainly fine. Philadelphia, because Joelle is protective of his health status,

Philadelphia protects it. And I think that that is a thing. The fans don't know. That's his choice. He's a grown man. He's dealt with injuries he can. But I do. think the public's ignorance and the media's ignorance, not that it were willfully ignorant, does contribute, the lack of total understanding does contribute to the perception. I do think that's something that, you know, could change. I mean, maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but I do think it is a factor. I do agree. I mean, I definitely agree. I think the one thing that nowadays, obviously, the NBA players get paid so much more because there's so much more coverage around the game, but the thing that has been lost, and this is why I respect both of you guys, is because

both of you guys are storytellers, which I always appreciate. You know, I appreciate you guys digging and finding ways to, you know, amplify and uplift these guys instead of the world we live in, which is a lot of clickbait and hot takes and stuff like that. And I think that NBA players wish that, you know, a lot more coverage was on the positives and the goods instead of, you know, it seems like a lot of times fans nowadays, they just want those takes. They want, they care more about who's getting traded and who has a bad game and, you know, all these trolls online. trying to farm engagement instead of uplifting these amazing athletes that have dedicated their entire lives to becoming, you know, the best of the best in the sport that they love. And so,

you know, I do think it's hard for people sometimes open up because, you know, they're like, hey, I'm going to get criticized anyway. So why would I open up if, you know, I'm going to get criticized anyway? Well, you know, one of the things I thought you did a, that people haven't really talked about or gotten into that much is the work you did with Jason this past summer. Obviously, he was tough, you know, the highest of the highs, they win a championship. And then a rough summer with the Olympic team. And even during the playoff run, his shot wasn't where it needed to be. But he's come back, obviously, he's having a great year.

What kind of things did you do with Jason this summer between the Olympics and the start of this season? Yeah, two things. I mean, the first thing was just reminding him how damn special he is as a basketball player. You know, I think that sometimes... I feel like you do this a lot, Drew. You're like, by the way, you have a $300 million contract. Yeah, you have all you... I feel like a big part of your job is telling them that they're good.

I think both. It's telling them they're not good enough and always encouraging them to chase those next level. And then also telling them, hey, you're really special like when they have those moments of doubt. So it's a constant battle, you know, it's one of those things Ramona's been able to be around, Joel and I a lot. But there will be times where like, I remember after he scored 59 him, you know, right after a game, like I had 59. I'm like, well, Brad and Jason have had 60 points.

You couldn't get one more to get 60. And then like, you know, he scored 70 against Wemby. He calls me, just puts a middle finger up. I'm like, there we go. Now we can celebrate that. But Kobe had 80, like, he's like, shut up. And then there's other times where, you know, you're constantly putting guys against each other.

You know, it might be for Jason. I'm going, man, you've never won an MVP, but, you know, all these other guys have won an MVP. And then, Joelle, I'm going, you've never won a championship. It's like the constant battle of, you know, building them up and breaking them down, building them up and breaking them down so that they can get to these special places. But the two things with Jason were, number one, building the evidence, reminding him, dude, you're one of the best basketball players in the world.

There's only a few people that can look you in your eyes. If you're really being real, like, there's only a few players that are as good as you are. And then the second thing was getting back to the mechanics that we knew worked. I think the one thing that fans don't understand a lot of times is they think that like when the buzzword, shot tweak or shot change gets in the media, they think like we're starting over from scratch and doing like one hand form shooting. It's like, we know what works for Jason's shot. We built it in a pre-draft process.

And now what we do is just constantly go back to the. that. And so there is slippage that occurs. And I don't know why it occurs. You know, like his natural shot was way over his head. And so if you look at it, a lot of times when, when Jason goes through a little shooting slump, it's because he rounds the ball. The ball doesn't stay on his right side. It gets way too high. And then the ball becomes flat. So it looks like a two motion, a slow motion shot versus when he's really feeling good. He's got the ball tight to his pocket on the right side. He's shooting it on the way up. And he's keeping the ball in front of his face where it looks so pure and so beautiful. And so that's what we did was first thing we did was just get back to like reminding you how good you are.

And the second thing was, you know, get back to the mechanics that we knew worked because, you know, over the years he shot it so well. I hate to harp on this, but he won a championship in June. First week of July, he signs $300 million contract, largest contract in history of the game. Does win a gold medal. I realized two games he didn't play. Does win a gold medal. He comes back to the U.S. and you go, you're still good.

You're still a good player. Like, I mean like just so you can map it out, he went to China. He had a thing that he had to do with Jordan Brand. And he came back. And in China, he called me and was like, hey, bro, I need you when I land. And I literally was in Boston waiting for him. And we did two a days. The day after he landed from China, he started two a days after winning a championship,

signing the biggest deal in history and winning a gold medal, his second gold medal. That's just why he's one of the best players in the world is because he's always been about working. He's always been about improving, you know? And it's these guys, that's what I think that, you know, guys should, appreciate about these players is like these special players. They are, they crave, they're obsessive when it comes to coaching and feedback and criticism so they can get to these levels that they can't get to themselves. Brian, we, we got to, we got to ask him one more thing before we, before we,

before you go to break or something. This summer, he was, he, I don't know if you posted any wheels up to Athens, but there, but there were some flights overseas, right? What were, what were you doing on those flights? So funny, because we're, I'm at the, I'm at the NBA finals. and Ramona goes, where did you fly in from? I said, oh, Athens. That's right. I was there that day. And then she goes, can I mention who you're working with?

Athens, Georgia. I said, don't name drop. And she goes, okay, Celtics win the championship. And lead is, Drew Hanlon arrives working with those notable superstar. I said, I think people can do the, you know, the math right there. But, you know, that's one part about my job is that, you know, some of the guys that I work with, they love me sharing that they're working hard so their fans know, the gym and sharing clips. other people like to choose to, you know, keep things more private. And, and I just kind of always respect

that. And as you know, like, trust me, there are other people that choose to do it different ways. But, you know, I am one of those people that I'm constantly just going to war for my clients. And so whatever they choose to do, I always say, I'm like the GPS. I'm the one that's telling them how to get from where they are to where they want to get to, but they're the ones driving the car. They're the ones putting in the work. They're the ones getting the results. And so I always respect how they go about sharing the work they're putting in if they're private, if they're open, if they want me to post or they want me to not post. And so, you know, I think, I think people can do the math, Romano. But yeah, as soon as, as soon as Ramona fired that article off, I got about a hundred text messages.

Oh my God, I can't believe this is happening. So. But I think that's in, but without naming names, because we, you know, on this, on this podcast, even though Brian has insiders on his podcast, but without naming names. Who goes to Greece? Or Georgia. I don't know. Multi-time MVP goes to Greece. Hey, you're adding details. That is part of that, that player's brand, though, is the secrecy of not sharing things, of not, of not letting anyone know what they're working on.

Yeah, I think, I think it's, again, I'm all about just getting results. I think that's the only thing that matters. And I think that, you know, it depends on what players want and how they want to go about it. But, you know, I've had to learn that too, because early on in my career, you know, as a young trainer, you have this ego or you want credit for everything you do. And as I've got older, I've realized, like, as long as the players know work that you're putting in, as long as the players respect the relationship that you've built and they trust you, that's the only thing that matters. And so, trust me, like, if I wanted a million followers, I could easily just post all the workouts and the runs and all the things that we do over the summer.

You know, I've chosen to go a different route that's been more behind the scenes and just pouring into these guys when, you know, what I call the unseen hours, you know, the hours that people aren't watching and they aren't seen, but they do end up seeing the results from those hours that we put in. All right. Before you go, real quick, because I know you got a time. What was your shooting percentage at Belmont? Three-pointers? Well, my senior year of 48.2, I finished just over 40 for the career.

48.2. That's pretty awesome. And how many a game? On seven, you said? Seven and a half a game. That's a lot. Okay. 1987-88. I just want to tell you this, one of the crazy stats I've ever heard.

1987-88 as a senior at Arizona, Steve Kerr. Oh, yeah. Unbelievable. Shot 57% on three. On 200. Wow. He averaged three makes a game on 5.2 attempts. And I said to him, I said, I talked to him about that one day.

I said, Steve, why did you not shoot 12? Why you got 10 a game? Yeah. And he said, I shot 57% Brian because I only took five. So he was incredible. Looking back at some of these numbers, I mean, you just look and you go, wow. And, and again, I always, I do think. I'm just saying, like 2015, you know, that, you know, you probably, if you only took five a game, you might have shot over 50%.

Yeah. I'm just saying. Of course. Yeah. I honestly wish I was shot less percentage-wise and shot more, though. That's why I always tell me. Exactly. Exactly. I wish I would have been firing 12 to 15 shots a game and it shot 40%. I was like, damn, then I, then instead of training you guys, maybe I'd be like, you know. That's exactly right. You know what, Peyton Pritchard gets paid. I know because you're on all the Celtics games. That could have been new. Trust me. All right. I begged a couple GMs that have offered me jobs year after year. And they're like, one of these days, you're going to take a job. And I'm like, I told you, my asking price is the 15th, jersey. I don't have to play, but if you give me a minimum contract, I will be a player coach. So that is always my negotiation tactic. No one's taking me up on it, but one of these days I'm going to

convince a GM if you really wants me on the coaching staff to give me the last jersey on the end of the bench. Good luck. Thanks for your time. Again, the book is stop BSing yourself, except it's not BSing. It's the full word, but you'll see it. Thanks for your time. We'll see it down the road. And thanks for spends time in the Hoop Collective. Awesome. Appreciate you guys. podcast after this. Okay, back here on the Hoop Collective with Ramona Shelburne, thanks to Drew Hanlon, who joined us earlier. Coming out of All-Star weekend here, we're not going to talk about anything that happened

on Sunday, Ramona, because I've just banned it. We're not going to talk about it on this podcast. But you, I thought, you know, we were just talking a minute ago. I thought you took something that came out of All-Star weekend that you think was a little bit more tangible than anything of that popcorn that was on Sunday night. Yeah, I mean, look, so much of was made of the format and LeBron not playing, etc. But I don't know. I thought that Anthony Edwards quote where he was asked about Victor Wemba.

Ant, are you the face of the league? Can you see yourself with that? And then he said, no, they got Victor Wemignama for that. Right. I'm paraphrasing, but that's essentially what he said. I think he said they got Wembe for that. Yeah, they got Wembe for that. Okay.

And I thought that that was a really interesting quote from Anthony Edwards. Because by the way, Anthony Edwards definitely wants to be the face of the league. He should be the... And can be. And can be. He's right up there. He hasn't done anything wrong. Like, you know, he's in the...

Yes, the Timberwolves are a little disappointing this year coming off of... Well, he's gotten into some controversies, you know, like he's said some things that have... He's gotten fine every day. You know, he's contributing a lot to the NBA charities. Well, he had that social media post a couple years ago that offended some people. But... Yeah. So he has misdemeanors.

Let's put it that way. There you go. And I think what was interesting. thing about his quote was when somebody says something that to me doesn't ring true. Like I was like, well, clearly he is so marketable. He's a budding superstar. His whole brand is I'm going to go at my heroes. I'm going to go at Kevin Durant. That was my idol and I'm going to take my place alongside of him and beat his team. And I mean, that's his whole brand. That's how he lives his life. And I was like, I've never known aunt to back away from something to say, I don't want that. And I don't

buy it. But what I do buy is that this whole year, he's been getting fine for cursing and getting into it with officials. And when you get fined every other week and there's a lot, whether it's money coming out of your pocket or just that feeling of getting your hand slapped all the time, there was an interesting use of the word they in that, in that quote. They've got Vimby for that, which I think was more of a, does the league want me to be the face of the league? It was a sort of, you know, I mean, it just let, I thought that was a very, that was a quote, We'll circle back on, especially for two Western Conference superstars who will be the faces of the league going forward. Yeah. Look, this is a topic that has been coming up now over the last year. It's a classic

post-all-Star game topic. Like every year it's like scheduled. There are still television and podcasts that must happen on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday after All-Star. And so those podcasts must have topics. So let's have a topic about how we're going to fix the All-Star game. Check. Let's have a topic about who the face of the league is because LeBron is old and LeBron and stuff are old. Like, let's just do that because the- and Katie, and Katie. So part of it is that. Part of it is that the good young players are European. It's a coded discussion.

Who's going to be the face of the league? Well, you know, Stephen A, I think this week on first take said that he doesn't think he can get not American. I, when it comes to this stuff, I default to David Stern. David Stern used to say bet on the greatness of the game. and I bet on the greatness of the game. I bet. And when you say the greatest of the game,

you're also talking about the greatness of the players. It's embedded in that sentence. And so I will do that. And a bet on the greatness of the game is a bet also on Ann Edwards. I will say this. It was fascinating. I think the athletic first reported this,

and I've subsequently heard about it. There was discussions. The concept that Phoenix could have traded Kevin Durant, because you mentioned going against his idol, The Durant, Aunt Edwards' dynamic was, has been enjoyable for a while. On Team USA was terrific. There was that famous photo where Aunt was dunking on Durant from practice. It was a great photo.

Kevin, just coming back from the calf injury and, you know, Aunt lightened them up. And the truth was is that they were inseparable the whole time. And, you know, the concept that the wolves at least tried to pull off this trade. Amazing. I don't know how they could have done it, to be honest with you. Yeah. I've heard some concepts of what was offered, but the wolves are a second apron team, so they couldn't aggregate players together.

So they would have had to have made a separate. And I'm not going to, like I've heard some things, but I'm not going to speculate, but they would have had to have made a separate trade to get under the apron. And then they would have to put some players together that the sons would have wanted. Sons would have accepted. And remember, they don't have draft assets, really. They may have a little bit because they did the Gobert trade. And by the way, they were, you can take it.

They were not going to trade Gobert because Gobert is not allowed to be traded. So you can, he's signed a extension to begin the season. So you can take any Gobert drama or controversy off there because they couldn't do it. So I think it was kind of a pipe dream, two teams that couldn't do a deal killing time. You know, there were 26 teams that did a trade. They were, you know, Phoenix did. But they registered interest. And so if this conversation comes up again.

Right. You know, things can change in the summer. What would you think about the concept of KD playing with? Wow. I kind of love it. I mean, I, like, I can see them, I can see their games working together because Kevin can give you, you know, an outside. They would be totally, I think Kevin would be totally invested in an success. Totally.

Kevin is a hooper. Kevin is like a, a custodian of the game. He cares about the history of the game. Like, he cares about his place in the history of the game. He cares about the people who came before him and the people who will come after him. He's not, he is very aware of all of that. And so I think he would, I think he likes the, relationship with aunt? I mean, you, you had a front row seat for that. I don't know about him being in

Minnesota. You know, I think he's, we wrote a whole story about how happy he was in Phoenix and wanting to stay there. And I believe that. I still believe that. Well, I don't think he's going to end up there after the summer, but he definitely did not want to get traded. No, at least not on his terms in February. Correct. And I think that's a, I think it's a really interesting dynamic that we're going to obviously revisit several times throughout the, the rest of the, this season and the, off season that's going to keep coming back up. Maybe it depends on how the wolf finished this year, right? How do they, because they have ways to extricate themselves from the second apron this

summer. It's easier for them to do it. Yeah, the apron also goes up. You know, the apron's going to go up a little bit, which will make it easier. But, I mean, I don't know. Just to be clear, I'm not reporting that they're going to get back into it. But I love, and what you said about the greatness of the game, I think it's something that when we talk about the face of the front or the face of the league, so much of the

time in the NBA, we talk about personality. It's a cult of personality. It's not just your greatness on the court. And I, I, I, you know, I'm in Los Angeles. I was, I just was hosting LA radio right now. And I, I heard what Stephen, Stephen A said about, you know, can a, can a foreign player be the face of the league, et cetera? I think he's right in a lot of ways. But there's also a giant counter argument right here in Los Angeles in a major sport. And his name is Shohei Otani. Like, Shohei, that's America's pastime.

He plays baseball. And the face of baseball is a Japanese-born player who doesn't do a lot of media, doesn't have a huge personality, at least outwardly, you know, in the forward-facing way. But he's just undeniably historically great. Like, man is a legend. He's one of the greatest baseball players of all time. And so we talk so much about who the face of the league is based on personality.

Like Aunt Edwards, he oozes charisma, right? Like everything he does is interesting and fun to watch. I want to listen to every one of his postgame interviews. I actually thought he was a real actor when he was in that movie with Adam Sandler. Like he's pretty good, you know, as athlete actors go. But the reason he could be a face of the league is because of how great he is. And I think like, let's let it happen. Let's let's let that happen.

Like last year he burst onto the scene because they beat Denver because he beat Kevin Durant because he led them on this great playoff run. He's still, what is he? like something like that we got to just let this stuff happen with these guys well i would just say the thing about minnesota like they did the deal for carl towns because it was very hard to have a player of that much salary on their books with where they're going um but and whatever carl's doing great in in new york um but the thing that i you know from being around minnesota last year carl even though he was the franchise player at one point clearly he wasn't anymore carl was in very

in an aunt's success. Maybe that of your possession, maybe you could pull out an individual moment or an individual game or a week or whatever, but for the most part, Carl moved aside and was invested in ants' success. And Kevin would be invested in an success. I agree. And not just because he worships him, but because that's the wiring that he has and at this point his career. And that's, you know, I don't, I have not spoken to anybody in Minnesota about what their motivation was for examining that. But I get it. Without speaking to them, I get it. I understand why they thought about it. Well, I think also the thing with Carl and Aunt, and this is a sort of, you know, because they're not together anymore. But I think it's really, it was a fascinating thing

to cover and see up close. Aunt really had Carl's back. Like Aunt really, when Carl had a couple of poor shooting nights, I remember on Mother's Day, they both had a tough game. With a playoff game, they both have lost their mothers, obviously. And there's, you know, Carl's obviously played out very publicly there in 2020. That was a really tough game for them, really tough day for both of them. And Carl had a tough, a really bad game. And Aunt stood up for him publicly. Like, you know, he's challenged him publicly too. He did challenge him publicly too. He did. But he really, I felt like there was, you know, there was others in the organization, like, I don't want to name names, but there was other new organizations that you felt like, well, it wasn't exactly

the most supportive comments there. But I thought, aunt really, he challenged him, basically, that I want you to keep shooting, even if you keep missing. Your job is to keep shooting, I believe in you. Like, that's his way of standing up. But he could have piled on. He could have, you know, fired something at him in a way to undercut him, and he didn't. And I thought that was really telling about what kind of, his own character as a leader at 23 years old. Yeah.

Look, I think face of the league, whatever, whatever gets you through your podcast segment, I mean, we do it. I'm not passing judgment. There was a lot in that answer, though. Yeah. I'm betting on Ann Edwards. Yeah. Okay. You know, whatever you want,

why you want to frame it? I'm betting on Ann Edwards, and he's still very much growing. Before we go, Ramona, Wednesday night, league starts again, makeup game from the fires. Charlotte comes to L.A. to see the Lakers.

Is it a Mark Williams revenge night? I don't know if LeBron's going to play coming off the foot thing in the All-Star game. Is it a Mark Williams? I've never thought I'd ever say those words. Is it a Mark Williams revenge game? I think so, right? I mean, he must feel pretty rejected right now.

He got all the way to L.A. went through all the physicals and all that stuff. They really examined him and then said, nope, get on the play and go home. Even as disruptive as that is for both of the teams and all of the players involved. So, yeah, he's got something to say. Yeah, I mean, like, the Hornets don't ultimately care whether they win or lose. I mean, I shouldn't say that. But, like, wins and losses aren't the most important thing to the Hornets organization.

But you could send a message. I think the players want to win. I'm not sure that you can play through a guy who's a role player like that, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a few lobs built in to the offense to just, you know, because the Hornets are obviously very frustrated with the Lakers. Yeah. And the way that went down. I don't think Mark Williams has played.

I don't think he's played for the Hornets. I don't think since he's come back. So Don't Connect was there. Don't Connect. Has played. He didn't play that first. game. I saw him. It was the first game in LA against the Jazz, and then they went to Utah and played another game. And JJ said, you know, he's going to need another minute. He's going to need some time to

digest this because that was hard. And I don't know, I've covered a lot of, I've covered things like this before. I remember in 2011, Chris Paul got traded and then that got nixed by David Stern. We've quoted David Stern twice on this podcast today. And then Lamar Odom showed up and immediately walked into Mitch Cupchek's office, asked for a trade. Pao Gassol came back. kind of tried to soldier through it, but was really never the same guy. I don't know. It's interesting to see how all these guys feel about, you know, having been traded and untraded and, you know, if you're Mark Williams,

now with your reputation. Did you see those memes? There was on Valentine's Day, there was all these memes on social media about, like, you know, NBA Valentine's or whatever. Okay. There was a classic one with Dalton that said, that showed him, like, with some hearts. And it said, I'd trade you, but still get you back. You know.

That's great. Yeah. So he at least, if nothing else from that experience, he has that meme. All right. Thank you very much, Dremona. Thank you to Drew Hanlon. Thank you to our producers, Jackson and Rafa. Thank you for watching and listening to The Hoot Collective.

We'll be back with the Tims later this week.