Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - WCF Game 1 Reaction, Major Keys To ECF + Future In Boston & Cleveland

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to Game 1 of the Western Conference finals between the Wolves & Thunder including what this means for the rest of the series and the players to watch in Game 2. Then, the crew previews the keys to the Eastern Conference finals between the Pacers & Knicks.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which you're doing after midnight on Wednesday morning, joining me from New York City, where the Knicks will host the Pacers in Game 1

on Wednesday night of the Eastern Conference Finals, Tim Buntems. Hello, everybody. Joining me from across the street in Oklahoma City, he picked me up today at 7 a.m. at a.m. at a hotel in Dallas. I couldn't, you know, this is the man who famously doesn't do anything before the double-digit hours. And he said, I'll pick you up. up at seven. And I was like a.m. And sure enough, at seven bells, Bond Temps, Band McMahon was in that parking lot ready to drive from Dallas to Oklahoma City.

It's Ban McMan. McMahon knows how to take care of the town. That's all I got to say. Howdy. Partners, and by the talent, you mean my wife, the IT department, had to make a sprint home to take care of some things with her, to see her, to service her, you might say. And all's good. I didn't make it to Oklahoma City because of thunderstorm, so I spent the night in Dallas. And McMahon drove me right up by 35. And made it in time for shoot-around. I will say this, Bontem, so at one point, now he's driving a rental car. This is a car he does not know, okay?

He's had, he's had, he's had, he's had, he's not, let's be honest, he doesn't know the drive. He never makes the drive. Well, that's the drill upside. But the drive's not hard. No, the drive was no problem. You get on 35 and you go. So we're, you know, we're about 50 miles from the airport. looking at the computer and it says it's 57 miles to the airport, or it's 50 miles to the airport,

and we got 57 miles left in the... That's cutting it a little close. And I was like, you know, McMahon, maybe should just get a little splash of the tanks, you know what I'm saying? He's like, no, we'll make it. We'll make it. I'm like, you know... Ride the horse till it dies.

That's what we do in Texas. You don't know this car. And I was like, you know, he's like, nah, we'll be fine. I go, you know what? I got to go to the bathroom. So we stopped at a gas station. He puts... Mind you, company card.

he puts $3 worth of gas in. I got the prepaid thing. I got the prepaid thing. I understand. But, you know, you could have put $6 in. So he puts $3 in. We get back on the highway and he goes, there's no more gas in this car.

I got less miles than what we started. It settled in. It took a little while to settle. Kind of like the Thunder's offense. And I took a little while to settle. And then once settled in, it was all good. I had this vision of us. I had this.

vision of us puttering down within sight of the rental car lot, just puttering down the street. Well, listen, you'd have gotten in the back and you'd gotten to pushing. You executed it, and I have no complaints. I have no complaints. Other than the 10 minutes of complaints you just had? No, it was a good story.

It's all it was. Not going to complain, but... I was not complaining. No complaints. All right. So, McMahon and I were at the Oklahoma City Thunder's victory in game one. tonight over the Minnesota Timberwolves. And it wasn't an extraordinarily interesting game. I'm going to be honest with you.

I'd like to sell the soap a little bit here. But McMahon, I don't think I can sell it the soap. But that's a compliment to the thunder. Because what do you talk? What are you laughing at, Bontow? We're just off to a roaring start. You spent 10 minutes complaining about the drive. And then you start out saying the game was boring.

It wasn't really bringing into people. It just wasn't special. No, listen, here's a deal. It was a horrific offensive performance. in the first half by the Thunder. Their defense was good enough to keep them in it. Like they scored 44 points in the first half. Almost half of those were off of turnovers that they created.

Because that's honestly their best offense a lot of times. And then SGA got a rhythm going in the third quarter. Jaylon Williams got a rhythm going in third quarter. Their defense was smothering. The Thunder, this was a dominant defense performance by the Thunder, and they played one terrible offense faff and one good offense fath. And it was enough for them to blow out their opponent. we've talked about turnovers being death.

Once again, 19 turnovers. The Thunder convert those into 31 points. They are averaging over 25 points off of turnovers in the playoffs. It's the best of the play-by-play era, according to Stats Williams. The shot making for this team comes and goes, it ebbs and flows. The defense, they were the most dominant defense in the NBA all season long, and they have cranked that up to an even higher level in the playoffs, and not only do they get stops, they get their offense started a lot with

their defense, and that's exactly what happened tonight. Well, I mean, it's a fascinating box score, right? I mean, you mentioned it there, 19 turnovers from Minnesota for 31 points for the Thunder, 31 to 10 advantage in points off turnovers, 21 point difference, massive advantage, points in the paint, thunder. Let me remind you real quick that the other day in game seven against the nuggets, the differential on points off turnovers was 30.

So that's 51. 51 points. The last two games. Thunder points in the paint, 54 to 20. 20 in this game. And by the way, they played small a lot.

They didn't play the two bigs together a lot. That's just not letting them get in the paint and the wolves bricking away from three point range. The Thunder had more field goals made in the paint 27 than the wolves attempted in the game 23. And they also, for a team that as we know famously has groused about their lack of foul attempt foul shot attempts this year, Che gets to the line 14 times.

They win the foul line battle, 26 to 21 in attempts, 21 to 15 in makes. And despite all that, I came away from this game personally, watching at home. I don't know what you guys thought, feeling this was kind of like game one of Warriors wolves. Not that I think that the wolves are going to win the next four games, but a Texas stats wins when the game was over. And I said, when you run the numbers on three-point shooting, I would love to hear what the open three-point shooting was in the game because it felt like the wolves had a ton of wide open threes and missed them. And I tweeted out earlier, full credit to him and our research people, on open threes in this game, Minnesota was 11 for 39. In Oklahoma City,

was 10 for 16. Now, the Thunder only took 21 threes. The wolves took 51. I think we would all agree. The wolves were too passive. Anthony Edwards had one layup or dunk attempt in the game. It was the one when he tried to decapitate people at the rim. But he's got to be more aggressive. But the wolves can't have to come away from this game, I think, saying we have good three-point shooters. If our guys can make open shots, we can win game two and do exactly what we wanted to do in Oklahoma City. Yeah, well, so a couple things. One, Ants teammates were encouraging him throughout the game. Attack, attack, attack. And he just, you know, he just, you know, first off, he's dealing with some great defenders. Dord is up in his face. Caruso is up in his face. Cason Wallace. By the way, Cason Wallace had seven

assist tonight. He had 12. What do you have the other night, McMahon? He even had a couple, he even had a couple lobs that he completed. After I said he throws them all on the fourth road. Well, several of his teammates after the game pointed out that he was a point card in college. But anyway, yeah, Kason Wallace, like, so part of what's going on is it, and, you know, you see this sometimes with the thunder where no matter how much you prepare yourself to play the thunder when you actually do it, it's disorienting a little bit. You know, when you, when you see Caruso. Like playing Indiana, like we've seen a bunch too. Right. When you see Caruso refuse to. to be screened when you see, you know, the way to...

Borg refused to be screened. Yeah, just, so part of it is he's ungrossing, the helping. Yeah, part of it is he's just uncomfortable and he's not used to it. But, you know, but part of it was he just, you know, he didn't have that. You know, it's like, it's like, one of the things about the NBA that is so remarkable is that you sometimes see these playoff games and these teams start these games and they're just passive. Yeah.

And you're like, but, you know, they all understand the importance of a game, of a playoff game. They all get it. And you know, and so that's what, that's kind of what happened. And, you know, the thing about it was is that the wolves came out and they hit like their first three shots. They got up like 8-0-0. Eight-nothing, yep. They lived off that lead for the whole first half.

And so I think they kind of got lulled a little bit. But anyway, Aunt, Ant does not attack the rim. His teammates are imploring him to do it. He did twist his ankle at one point, but I don't think it really affected him that much. He does that every game. I know. But, you know, you mentioned the 53-1-3s, bond tips. They took 83 shots in 51 or 3s. Well, and look, Julius Randall was scorching hot in the first

half. He had 20 points in the first half. I mean, great shot-making performance. The wolves scored 48 as a team. And again, the Thunder were awful offensive in the first half. Shea was two of 13. J. Dub was two of eight. All they could do was get, Shea got to the line some, and then they got out off of turnovers and transitioned some. But Randall cooled off and nobody else ever got going from Minnesota. Randall didn't so much cool off. He stopped shooting. Right, right.

And Aunt really never started shooting. Aunt took 13 shots in this game. Right. It is his fewest in a playoff game this season. And I'm going to read a quote from Dave McMinneman's story, which I would just like to point out for the record, was filed. several minutes after my thought tips. Is the only person slower than you?

We've established that as a fact. Several minutes after mine. We have established that as a fact already. On tips, I'm reading. I'm reading. And again, mind you, okay, 20 points in the paint, you mentioned Ant only had one of his 13 shot attempts were in the paint.

Despite the fact, the Thunder played their two bigs together far less than they had been. And there were times when, you know, Kenridge Williams and or Caruso were playing the five small ball lineups and said, I mean, they clogged the paint. That's what they do. They don't got much size down there so they bank on us not making shots, I guess, because every time I go to the rim, it's like four people in the paint. And by the way, that's how they kept them from scoring in the paint. That's also how, like, they just swarm you. I tell you, it's not a help defense with the thunder.

brass defense. Make you playing crowds. They've got all these guys like Caruso's got great hands. J-Dub had five steals tonight. He's got great hands. Casey Wallace has great hands. She has great hands. They just swarm you, harass you.

Next thing you know, it's whoosh. The ball's going the other way. And guys are getting dunks and layups. Well, and another stat from stats from he was about Anthony Edwards. His average shot is this per distance in this game is 25.8 feet per. for genius IQ, which is formerly second spectrum, the longest of any game in his career, regular season or playoffs. Now, again, if you're Minnesota, I think you look at this and say,

you know, Nas Reid, very good shooter, Kay Alexander Walker, very good shooter, Dante DiVincenzo, very good shooter. They combine to go four for 23, four for 24 on open threes in this game. You expect those guys to hit more shots. I think we'll expect Anthony Edwards to play better in, game two. If they can make open shots and not turn the ball over, I think there's every reason to think they could score with the Thunder, a Thunder team that we've seen repeatedly,

struggled to you going offensively and they weren't great offensively in this game. But no, but just like if you look at it, like I think if you are Minnesota, you can look at it and say that. But to your point, McMahon, like, it's one thing to say that. And it's another thing to experience playing this Thunder defense and see what they can do. and actually be able to do something about it over the course of 48. I think you can say if you're Minnesota and you're watching the film, hey, we've got to just shoot the ball better.

We've got to make more open shots. But honestly, dude, the Thunder, this is what they do in terms of the turnovers. Like 19 turnovers for 31. It's not an outlier performance. Again, they are averaging 18.3 turnovers force per game in the playoffs. They led the league with 17 during the regular season. They are averaging 25.3 points off of turnovers in the playoffs. The best since that stats available, which is since 97, okay?

They averaged like 21 and change, almost 22, which was a league best during the regular season. The defense, 106.6 during the regular season was their defensive efficiency? It's down like 100.7. The most dominant defense in the league has crumptial. ranked it up a couple notches in the playoffs. That's why the Thunder are where they are. Yeah, I mean, like you said, Brian, Minnesota scored eight points in the first 70 seconds of the game.

They scored 80 points the rest of the game. Their offensive rating in the game was 90.9. It'd be like 12 points worse than the Wizards this year. The Thunder had 13 steals. And I've got to tell you, like, you hold the ball on them, and they're just going to come take it. Like, you pretty much, you better keep. moving the ball. The problem is that that's the thing. Like so many, I wonder how many of those

steals were strips because it felt like probably about eight of them were because they just, if you hold the ball, they just come get it from you. And then of course, if you move it, they're always jumping into passing lands because it's so long. But like, I felt like tonight, like a number of the steals were a point where like the ball would just stop and they would bring help defense. And then when you tried to move, they just take it from you. They just take it. It's like it's like a man said. If they're, they play small. But they play football like defense. Like they're swarming to the ball all the time.

And they're playing incredibly physically. And they really are going to take it out of you. The wolves were annoyed with the officiating, you know, in the early going, the Thunder couldn't make anything. And they were kept in the game by Shea's getting the line. She got the line 14 times. And Chris Finch was grumbling. He, during, you know, during some of the early timeouts,

he was actually coming over to the officials to take his case. and we had two friends of the pod on the staff tonight. James Kaeper and Tyler Ford. James Cabers and Tyler Ford. Oh, listen, I gave Tyler Ford a little tea. He teed up in. I believe Mark Lindsay was the one who called that tea, unless there was a second one. Oh, I thought it was Tyler.

He did throw the ball at Shea, you know. He threw in his groin. Hey, was that all, was that an entire sub six foot crew? I know Cabr's claimed six feet, but we know that ain't true. We're not doing that. What? I'm just asking. Not doing that.

I got a text from an NBA official in the first quarter. I know this. I know that Tyler Ford did not have his whistle on a lanyard, and James Capers did. I mean, this is crazy. The text from this NBA official said, quote, your short crew from hell, in quote. They did a fine. Yeah, I didn't think if Fish Aten was an issue here. Was Shea Fowling?

Of course he was. Honestly. Well, listen. Any game was all they had going offensively. Any game where the Thunder shoot more free throws than their opponent, this is not a commentary on the referees at all. If it's a physical game like it was today, and the Thunder is shooting more free throws than their opponent,

they're going to feel like they're going to win the vast majority of those days. Because the game is being officiated in their favor. Yeah, the 68-win team that complained about the free throw disparity against them all year long, yeah, if they get more free throws than the other team, they're going to feel pretty good. Well, just say, yes. Well, in the way they play, as physically as they play, If they are, if Shea is going to the line like that and they're out pre-throwing the other team,

that means the game is a rough and tumble game. A rough and tumble game despite the fact that the Thunder are small is a big advantage for the fuck. Well, and your Legion of Boom comp for the way the Thunder play defense is perfect because A rare compliment, Pontems. Very rare. Barry, but I'll take it. You know, he's sitting home, changing diapers. I'm going to be nice to him.

As nice as I can be. But seriously, like they are so physical. like what kind of what's the line like what do you let him get it with what do you don't you know there was a funny moment tonight in the first half when uh nekeel alexander walker i said it right oh baby who's obviously shay gildes alexander's uh cousin it was the you couldn't like bray brought that up about 87 times you got all the hyphins in the correct order good job you couldn't you couldn't have watched any NBA programming the last four three days and not seen there were baby photos which were plastered everywhere

but there was a play in the first half where Shea just literally took a dive. I don't know how I was to say it. He took a dive. They called a foul. I do think he legitimately stumbled, but it was not due to any contact from his cousin. Well, he like, yeah.

And so they called it and gnaw looked over at his bench. It was like, challenge that. Like he was like, that was cool. And they did and they won it. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. We had a new colleague. tonight oh i love new colleagues you don't love anybody that's right i like them a lot better my old colleagues i can tell you that um every day the uh the thunder they they have uh they have these

screens up in the media areas and it says welcome visiting media you know welcome dave mcmenneman welcome tim mcman welcome anthony slater from the athletic welcome chris hind minneapleaple starr tribune welcome michael malone esPN oh yeah I loved it. Good to see him. Coach Malone. Didn't make it for the last series, but he's here now. Oh, come on. Come on.

That's your colleague. I just said he didn't make it for the last series. It wasn't part of our coverage team. He means McMahon is treating him like his colleagues now, so he's good. Exactly. He's in the mix. Yeah. So anyway, he was on countdown and he did post-game sports center as well, I believe.

Yes, he did. Well, you might have seen it, Bontems. We were in the locker room, but. I did. The sound was off because, certain people are asleep, but I did, I did see him on SportsCenter after the game, answering a few questions. Look sharp.

It was a, it was a, it's refreshing to see a coach in a suit. I have to admit, it was a bizarre thing to see, see Michael Malone standing there at a suit and tie with an ESPN microphone on the court after the West of conference. He's a friend of the pod. He's known to. No, we all, yes, we all like Michael Malone. It just was bizarre to see him in that. after all these years of him coaching in playoff games in Denver,

it was just jarring to see him doing that. Well, he jumped in with both feet because he said after the game that, you know, I'm taking a snippet. I'm looking for the actual full paragraph because we were, you know, we were,

McMahon and I were working, but he basically called Shea, the MVP, which I think is going to be verified in the near future. I don't think it's a hot take, But, you know, this is a guy who rightfully defended Nikola Yokic many times and especially this year. Oh, yeah? You know, led a campaign.

And again, rightfully so. I mean, what's he going to do? Was he going to say, no, my player, Yokic is not the MVP. But it was notable. I'll just leave it at that. It was certainly noted by the Denver Nugget fans. Well, it was notable. And I recall I was sitting, oh, right down the hallway here.

here in Oklahoma City on March 10th. I'm March 10th. Now, this is when Michael Malone was that he was coaching the little old Denver Nuggets at the time, as you boys were recall. About a month before he got the old heave-ho. I bet you Tyler Ford's given him the heave-ho, but Josh Cronkey in this case, given the heave-ho. Anyways, so this was the game. They had the little back-to-back here. And, man, in that second game, who, we.

was a Joker masterpiece. Oh, boy, I tell you, this is when Joker had 35 points, 18 rebounds, eight assists, still in a block, the old Nuggets, rally to win. Joker Malone tried to talk him to sitting out that day. He was like, no, no, no, we took the L.A. I'm going to rally. This is the day that Joker said, I will say that I think I'm playing the best basketball of my life. So if that's enough, that's enough. If not, the guy referring to SGA, deserves it. He's really amazing. Oh, Malone came out, breathing fire. That, I think it was an afternoon game. No, it was an evening game. It's right. He came out, he came out, breathe and fire. I'm just, okay. He said, hmm, I believe it was the last trip to Oklahoma City. He said, as we wind down this season,

this whole MVP thing is going to pick up. You understand that? That's part of it. Obviously, Shaggildos, Alexander is a great player, and if he wins his first MVP, he's deserving of that. My thing is this. If you didn't know that Nicola won three MVP's, and I put player A and player B on paper, and you had no idea that the guy who was averaging a triple double, the guy who's top three in the three major statistics categories, things that no one's ever done, he wins the MVP ten times out of ten. And if you don't think so, I think you guys are full of a word he can't say on ESPN. Oh, he said a bad word.

Ooh. So now, him declare and Shea, no doubt, the MVP, I think he's going to be right. I think we're going to find that out. Oh, very, very soon. I mean, I think we might be projecting a little bit. I'm not projecting. I'm reading quotes. I understand. I just. Did you not think there was a little jab at Joker? Hey, you didn't. I had your back. You didn't have mine? The guy said he was the MVP because he dominated the second half of the game. I don't know. he didn't give a five-minute speech about why Shea deserves to win over Yolkich.

Like, and everybody said for a month going back to the last straw poll that he's going to win. Look, I'm just saying, you get aggregated regardless of content. Listen, we love aggregation on this podcast as far as I know how much we love it. Wendy knows. I just think we're, Nick's things warm their arms up next time he comes to town. I think it just might be slightly unfair to turn this into, uh, sort of Malone is giving a backhanded slap at Yokic. Well, certainly people are taking it as that whether or not that's fair.

I mean, yes, of course. Like, people in Denver- Michael Malone doesn't even know who you are. Stop sticking up for him. He said it out loud. Was that? Wait, what was that? Was he being serious?

I'm not saying he didn't say it. He didn't know who you are. Remember that? Doesn't know who you are. Okay. Okay. Just as that was playing a game, I think people in Denver having a freak out for him stating a

fact is silly. Look, can you please introduce yourself again? I forgot who you are, too. I'm going to tell you something right now. Michael Malone's relationship with Yokic, wherever it may be at the exact moment, has yielded the most beautiful years of his career, yielded a championship where they worked together. And regardless of how raw somebody's emotions might be, and I'm not projecting, I'm just saying in general, I know how they feel about each other.

It was a mutually beneficial relationship that ran its. course by the end, but produce the only championship parade in the franchise's history and a whole lot of other success. And by the way, his concept, you know, if you're if you're arguing for Yokic and you would say that if you look at them blind, that is a compelling argument. Oh, he came, one thing about Malone and it'll serve him well for however long he's with us, the man gets his facts in order and he comes ready to make his case. his press conferences were always great. And that's why, like, if he, listen, if he wants to be on ESPN in TV for a little while,

however long it is, Gapier, whatever, he's going to be really good at it. Because the man, the man does his homework and makes a convincing case and doesn't mind, you know, say what's on his mind. He's not afraid to stake a position, which is valuable in television. I just thought this was pretty down the middle in terms of what he said. It wasn't like he went on a five-minute diatribe. I know. All right, let me ask you this. Bon Temps, do you remember off the top of your head I didn't ask you to repair for this?

So I'm not going to hold you to it. Do you remember what your final straw poll, what the percentages were or what the? I mean, there was virtually identical between the second and third ones. I can look it up here in about three seconds. So it was 70 to 30 in the second one. Se 1st place, 30 second place for Shea and 30 and 69. And then one third place for Yokic. They're only two to be on the all hundred ballots on each of them.

And then in the third one, Shea had 77 and 23 second place votes. And Yokich was obviously the inverse of that. Let's see once the MVP is announced, which I strongly believe will be Shea. let's see where those numbers are. It's past drop holes or any indication. They're going to be somewhere right around 77 and 23rd. And listen, after Malone gave that speech that I just repeated, Joker sat out for a stretch and SGA kept doing SGA stuff

while the Thunder Cruise 268 wins and the best point differential in NBA history and he won the NBA scoring title with very good efficiency while filling up the stat sheet on a nightly basis. Like, it's going to be SGA. And again, to me, you can make a case for either guy, and SGA has the two strongest tiebreakers. Number one, team record was not close. Number two, people don't want to hear this.

But if it's a tie, I'm going with the guy who hadn't won it yet, or with the guy who's won three times. Period. Well, well, somebody is where the team said to me back then, that if it's as close as this year was, which everybody agreed it was close, the guy who won 68 games is a pretty good tiebreaker also. Yeah. With the best point differential in NBA history.

Yeah. Pontems, I believe you'll be headed down to Madison Square Garden on Wednesday night for game one. Yes, sir. Oh, yes, sir. The Nix hosting game one of the conference finals did not see it coming. So, congrats to them. Now the hard part, though, because they have to play a Pacer team that is really, really good. And, you know, I think it was.

It was sort of obvious, but Max Struce from the Cavs, you know, he admitted it when the series was over. You know, we weren't quite ready for what we got from the Pacers in game one of that series. And I've seen this now a handful of times in the playoffs last couple of years where the Pacers catch some teams flat-footed. Because, again, just like with Oklahoma City, you can prepare for their defense, but then when you actually see it, it's not, it's disorienting. You can prepare for the way the Pacers play in terms of speed. But they kind of can hit you. They can kind of hit you. And by the way, I'll point out last year, the Pacers lost games.

The Knicks took games one and two, if you remember. They were up 2-0. And they were on the verge of being up 3-0 before Angie and Emhart hit that bomb three-pointer. And then what happened? Injuries took their toll on the Knicks. But you know what? What's the Trainers Association official, National Basketball Trainers' Association? I believe the MBATA.

Yeah. Did you see that award they handed out yesterday? I did. Oh, what was that? Who won that award, Tim? It was like the training staff for the year, the medical staff for the year. Oh, my goodness. It was the New York Knicks.

Oh, my gosh. Who's running that? Oh, I believe the guy named Casey Smith is the guy who's the head trainer for the Knicks. He was in Dallas for like two decades. He was. What happened to him, Tim? I don't know. It's a joke to bring that up now.

but he's done a heck of job in New York. That's a very healthy team. They nursed a great job. Hebrunson back from injury. Heather Mao also in Dallas for a long time right there with him. I mean, great job by that Knicks Health and Performance Group. That is a healthy team. Got Mitchell Robinson back.

Can we get to the conference finals now? Can we skip ahead? No, I'm just saying, like, it was a big factor in the conference finals last year. And you are ready to roll, baby. Yeah, they're ready to roll. I think you said this a couple of days ago, Bontemus, which I definitely agree with and have been talking about, which is that the wings that the NICs have invested in to beat the Celtics,

which did beat the Celtics, also are very useful against other teams, such as the Pacers. Yeah, Elite 3&D wings tend to be useful as the whole. Which the Caves did not have. The NICs matched up pretty well with Indiana last year. I think they match up better with Indiana this. year. And look, last year, they went into the series without Julius Randall and they ended it with Jimlin Brunson, O.JN and O'N, it will be completely out of the mix. And Mitchell Robinson barely

played, right? So Mitcher Robinson was very, was damaged by then. I mean, he played, he played part of the first game, never played again. So they were down a ton of bodies last year. And it still went seven games. Now, I think Indiana is better than they were last year. But this Nick team, I think, is better than it was last year. And if you look at the way, way these teams line up. Mikhail Bridges on Tyrese Alberton is probably about as good of a matchup for him as you can find in the league. Yeah.

Go Jan and Obie has guarded Pascal Seacum a trillion times in their time together in Toronto in practices, knows all of his stuff. They know each other intimately. That's a pretty decent matchup both ways. I think Miles Turner and Carl Towns is a very interesting matchup because they do a lot of similar things. And for Carl's defensive issues, the one thing he is decent at is getting out on the floor and moving his feet, some on the perimeter. And Miles Turner is never going to roll to the basket. He's going to pop all the time. And so I do think that's an okay matchup for

Carl, despite the fact that Miles has had a phenomenal playoffs. And I think... Well, and Spitzpamode, as we know Cat to be, the self-proclaimed greatest shooting big man of all time can certainly mitigate Miles Turner's rim protection by pulling him 30 feet from the hoop in a lot of cases. And the other thing that I think could really end up deciding this series is last year, Nemhart, who's a terrific player, got destroyed by Jalen Brunson in this matchup. That's interesting. And if Jalen Brunson can win that matchup again like he did last year, I think

the Knicks are going to the finals. And it's such a fascinating series for so many reasons. The history is huge. I mean, you got to love it. Reggie Miller calling this on TNT. Are you kidding me? It's going to be great. I don't think he'll be walking back to the hotel by himself.

In the last TNT broadcasts. Yes. But just from this is a very kind of Mazz-centric, Dallas-centric point of view, this is the superstar point guard that Rick Carlisle didn't believe in. against the one that he has believed in. And again, you go back to, like, forget about Rick benching Brunson in game seven, the last game, Rick coached in Dallas. The Mavericks tried to trade Brunson and a couple of picks to get Halliburton in that draft. Rick is always, always, always coveted Halliburton.

Bob Volgaier's had him as a number one player in that draft. That's an opinion that's aged relatively well. Rick got him as soon as he could in Indiana and has done a phenomenal job maximizing. Obviously, look, the Mavericks, Rick, a bunch of people were wrong about Brunson. Nobody expected Brunson become this. Brunson doesn't want to deal with this like revenge versus Rick thing. He didn't want to deal with the last year when I brought it up.

But it's a fascinating little subplot. No question. No question. And just the battle between those two guys. Like, you know, they're not guarding each other. but whoever plays better is going to have a really big chance. One of those two guys is leading their team to the NBA finals. Like in two weeks, one of those guys are going to be the face of their team going into the finals,

very possibly against Shea, another point guard. And, you know, like that's, there's always a lot on the line when you're talking about the conference finals. But for two teams that haven't been there in a very long time, they went back-to-back years, paces 2000, Nixon-99, the two teams, like that. like we talked about the other day, they've played more games against each other in the playoffs over the last 32 years than any other teams in a league. It's probably going to be another super long series. They play the last year. Like, it's just, it's, it should be an awesome, awesome series.

And there's just a ton of interesting little tactical wrinkles on both sides. You're out up to and including the fact the Knicks are going to play their seven guys, maybe a little campaign sprinkled in. And the Pacers are going 10, 11 deep. And they're going to play the all bench unit. and like Rick is going to be committed to playing fast and running up and down and, you know, which side of that's going to win out? Like it's just, it's a really fascinating matchup all around.

Yeah. And Brunson's, Brunson is having historic playoff run here. And Brunson and Halliburton both have had great clutch performances. And boy, potential for really interesting stuff down some end of some games. Because you know Brunson. is supremely confident.

And when Halliburton gets going, it feels like every shot goes in. You know, that shot is janky-looking at times. But, man, when it gets going, it just goes in. You know what? I'm going to petition the NBA. Papa Halliburton's got to be allowed to sit courtside at MSG. If he's willing to sit courtside at MSG

wearing a Halliburton jersey, then he needs to get back in a building. They let Brunson's dad sit courtside every game. I'm telling you. They give him a seat on the bin. Mitch. Lord of mercy. Talk about favoritism. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

So we had some general managers hold end of season press conferences in the last couple of days. And they were premature. They were premature. I don't think Brad Stevens and Kobe Alman were planning on doing that in mid-May. Two teams that had very disappointing ends of the season and two teams that have some interesting questions. Kobe Albine the Cavs team president He didn't promise anything because obviously things changed But he basically made it clear

He wants to keep his core together But what was most interesting is that He basically, and he didn't basically He admitted he's like people are going to People are going to think that we're a regular season team And you know like typically when you call a team a regular season team Even if it's true People get their

backs up. Oh. You know, that's, that's a, that's an insult. And Kobe Altman was sitting there saying, call us like it is. We've had great regular seasons the last couple of years, including a 64 win season, and we haven't been able to get past the second round. And he's like, we got to change the narrative. We got to deal with that. Andy, yeah. Can I read the quote? Because I thought it was a great quote. Yeah. I think we're going to all agree that coming into the season, no one predict us to be the one seat. I don't think anyone had 64 wins. Because we were so good, we recreated the, expectation of finals. I think everyone in here saw potential champions, which is a new space for us. We recreated that expectation, and now we have to live with that. I think it's a space we want

to live in and take that into the playoffs next year, knowing that we're going to have to change that narrative, knowing that we have to get over the hump, which by the way, as you said, is 1,000% accurate. And I think exactly the kind of message that the Cav should be sending. Like they just had a great season. They had a very disappointing end. Shouldn't be like, it's all good. It's all going to be fine. Like the way to embrace that or the way they get past that is to embrace the challenge

of it and meet it head on. And I was impressed with how, and obviously it's not the time for Kobe to be, that he wanted to be doing that. But I thought he set the right tone for what's a very important summer for them on a lot of levels. I think it sounds a lot like what the TWT part, of the Hoop Collective had been saying the Two Wise Tim's part. And, oh, ho, ho, a certain Northeast Ohio.

This guy's got so many monikers. Oh, man. It's amazing. Northeast Ohio Native got mad at us. I've ever heard anybody call you wise. A lot of different adjectives. Some of them come. I was going to say, wise that for sure.

We can't do. We can't do. That's an acronym we can't do on Disney. Well, I have to say that like, oh, man. I really did find a lot of what Kobe said to be. I was like, I was nodding with it. I was like, I feel that's all accurate. And I love, I love the reality of it.

And I love the, it's a really nice little blend of belief in his core that he stuck by last year when a lot of people, including us, we're saying break it up, you know, trade one of the bigs, whatever, maybe even Garland. Okay. It's a combination of belief in your core and challenging them. And I like that. Well, and by the way, this was an even more interesting quote when he had about Evan Mobley, and another one that I thought was spot on. Quote, we're going to go as a franchise as Evan is going to go.

And we've had that conversation with Evan. In the playoffs, we need more. We need more than 13 field goal attempts per game. That's new for Evan. There's another jump. So to that point, Kenny's going to be able to implement his offseason program, which you're very excited about. We're going to see some internal growth there.

And we think we have one of the best big men in the game in Evan Mowgli. And we have obviously said for years that even after the Donovan Mitchell trade, you're not winning a title if Donovan Mitchell is your best player. You could win a title if the Evan Mowgli that is in there becomes a top five or ten player in the league. And Donovan Mitchell is your second best player. And we saw it takes really one A, A, one B. Well, sure, but Evan Mobley has,

Evan Mobley as a big with the skills he has, has a ceiling that Donovan Mitchell's not getting to. And you saw some flashes of that this year. You also saw times when he would sort of fade away on offense. And obviously one defensive player of the year, it's a terrific young player. But again, I think that's the right tone for him to set too. Like, it's a big summer for the Cavs on a lot of levels.

They had a great season, had a very disappointing ending. They had the same exact ending as last year. but there are things for them to jump off from. And while they've got some real decisions to make this summer, they're going to bring back Ty Jerome, how are they going to manage the roster, they're going to keep the four guys together,

like what are they going to do? Evan Mobley taking a huge step is priority one. And priority two, I think, is, oh, hey, guys, if we want to take a step forward, there's things we've got to do better and differently that we did in the past. And I thought I'm saying both those things and the way he did was really good.

Yeah, I found myself agreeing with a lot of what he said. he also said, Evan Mobley is 23 years old. He is not done growing. And we're going to lean into the fact that he's going to keep getting better. And he also said, you know, because a lot of people, especially the fans in Cleveland, thought the calves were very soft. Oh. And basically what Kobe said, and I happened to agree with him, is that there's a difference

between being physically soft and mentally soft. And he basically said he thought they were mentally soft, but that doesn't mean they were physically soft. Which one's more insulting? I'm not even sure. I'm just saying like, there was a lot of truth bombs in this. And so I don't know if they're going to be able to fix it,

but I do think that their eyes are wide open as to what they've got. And they also are a second apron team. So it's not like if they even thought that they could need it to make massive changes that it would be even simple. As for Brad Stevens. I thought Brad Stevens also was somewhat frank. He didn't have, he wasn't really in position to lay out.

Kobe pretty much laid out the way he sees the offseason going. It's a lot easier to lay out, hey, we're going to keep our core together than, hey, here's who we're going to boot that helped us title a year ago. Here's the, this was Brad Stevens' opening statement. There's a couple sentences in. I think it sums up the entire situation in Boston. Quote, I know there will be a lot of questions about what's next, but I'll probably talk more about that. at the draft time. And we have a better idea after meeting with all the key stakeholders and everybody else

about what the next steps might be. That sums up where Boston is at. They're in the process of being sold. They have massive questions. The process is finished, being finalized to be clear. They're going to be sold. Yeah. And so you have a enormously expensive team that was going to have a $500 million

payroll with the best player, very unfortunately having a torn Achilles, and they're clearly not... Okay. It's been repaired. It's at the beginning of a very long recovery process. Sorry. Sorry, I'm loopy. It's late.

Sorry, Dr. Reuters. Yes. But, you know, look, what seems very clear to me is, I would say it seems just looking at it logically, it's extremely unlikely that this Celtics team is going to look the same as it did this year next year. next year. And the question is, by the draft, which is going to be a natural time for a lot of these things to happen, how much different is it going to look? Well, and that's the exact point that I was going to make. When he says, you know, talk about

it, you know, at the draft or around the draft, the draft, the draft is essentially a trade deadline of sorts, right? There's a lot, obviously, there's traits flying all around Lee. And so that's an opportunity. I'm sure he has a very strong idea of the, potential deals that could happen. I mean, it's not like, you know, we hadn't had discussions with other people. It's not like they haven't been mapping this out for a while. Can I push back on that slightly? I would say, I would say we have talked about the idea of Boston saving some money this year, right?

We never talked about the things that I think are potentially on the table after this century last week. And like that, that was such a seismic event that, well, yes, you've thought about this to some degree. It could be a different sort of franchise reset. You're having conversations now that you never imagined a week ago you were having. Essentially, what's on the table is what's on the table is a gap year. Yeah. But one other thing that he said, you know, Ramona Shelburne reported after the season ended

that Jalen Brown has been dealing with a partially torn meniscus. And Brad Stevens confirmed that that was true. But he said he has been dealing with it for a while and successfully managing it and that the knee is stable. and that they're hoping after a few weeks rest that he'll be in good shape. He never talked about surgery or no surgery, but his implication was he didn't need surgery, which is relevant to you thinking about this. Because if Jalen needs a convalescence, that's going to, you know, but really what you're talking about.

I don't know what that word means, but does not sound good. What you're talking about, Bontemps, is whether or not they would let the old guys go either by trade or in free agency and have a gap year. That's what we're talking about here, right? That's what we're brushing against. Look, I mean, you could make an argument. I think you could make a credible argument that the right thing for Boston to do would be to trade all four of its starters this year in the next two months

and get a ton of young players and draft things. I'd like to hear that credible argument. Okay. The argument is, the argument is this. The argument is this. You've got Chris Asperzingis who's going into the last year of his deal, who's in his early 30s. you've got Drew Holiday, who is in his mid-30s and is expensive.

You've got Derek White, who is 31, who will be 33 when Jason Tatum is ready to be in the playoffs again, and will never have higher value than he's going to have now. And you could get an absolute metric ton for Jalen Brown. And if you do those moves, you set yourself up to potentially be ready. And I'm not saying you trade them all for just like 19-year-old players, but you reorient the team so that in a year when Jason Tatum is ready to go in the fall of 2026 you have a younger core around him that you then try to contend for the next several years because this Celtic team is built to win right now and in a couple of years

the main keystone guys they have are going to be into their mid-30s. Now, I'm not saying they're going to trade everybody. I'm not saying they necessarily should trade everybody. I'm not saying they should just get rid of all of them and blow the team up and start over. But this Jason Tatum injury, like I said, it creates questions about what this team should do that I never contemplated thinking about. And I don't think the Celtics did because it just completely, you have to look at it like the whole timeline of the franchise has shifted.

So I think it's something you have to at least consider. I would not trade Jalen Brown and I would not trade Derek White. you could get you could have me have conversation and you know also letting out Horford walk is part of that what you're talking I would listen on the other situations because I mean that I mean yeah I mean it well sure then in that sense you're not doing anything different at all than before the injury which you I mean sure you can argue that like I'm not saying it's wrong but you know like I said I love Derek White he's one of my favorite players in the league like he's been and I know this is an incredible player I know this group's

a championship group so but you're also talking about a group that you is pretty much on hold for 18 months, if you're being realistic about it. So that's an eternity in the NBA. Well, you know, the thing about it is, I do think it's interesting. Let's keep in mind that while the new owner is going to have the purse strings, Whit Kruzbach is still the governor. So, you know, it also might depend on. Well, well, look, and if you're going to, if you're also going to pick a year to get out of the tax and reset things for a team that's been very expensive, if it is headed to repeater tax land, this year also wouldn't be the worst time to think about doing that either.

McMahon's come back from his emergency pause. Well, we don't need to advertise. All right. Let me tell you what the situation is, okay? The Get Up producers, the Get Up producers are already awake. They're already texting me. I haven't gone to bed yet.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Are you following me? They're already awake. I'm reporting for you. Wendy's sleep updates. They're all excited. They just woke up. They found out the score.

They're watching highlights. They're like, let's talk about the game. I'm talking with them. Like, I haven't gone to bed yet. So this is where we have to end this. Thank you for watching and listening to Hoop Collective. Thank you to Bontems. Thank you to McMahon.

Thank you to Jackson, who I now think I'll text when I get up in like four hours and he'll still be working. So thank you. I can't do this. I can't do this much longer. I just, I'm getting too old for this. Wendy, go back. to the buzz cut, you know, get just like 20 minutes extra sleep every time you got to wake up and routine.

So we have a different hair due today because we had hair and makeup here today because Michael Malone needed special treatment. They did something different. Do you think it's like, it's a lot going on here? The coiff still exists. I didn't get the hair and makeup. I'm naturally this handsome. Do your thing.

Oh, wait. You want to go to bed? Yes. Adios Amigo. You want me sing you a lullaby? Yes, I don't even need it. Adios, Amigo, aios, my friends.