Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Wemby & Spurs Dominate The Thunder + Knicks On The Brink Of Historic Finals Run & All-NBA Selections

Episode Date: May 25, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the Spurs’ domination of the Thunder in Game 4 of the Western Conference Finals. The guys break down why injuries are very concerning for OKC, how San Antonio came out with the right intensity and the keys to the series moving forward. Then, we discuss how the Knicks' amazing playoff run has continued against the Cavs including why a short series could be massive for New York. Finally, we react to the All-NBA selections for this season with discussions on some of the controversial picks. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome to the HOOC Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing a little past midnight on Monday morning slash Sunday night. Joining us from New York City, where the streets are about to explode with Knicks Mania, is Timbontemps. Nobody happier, Van McBan, and our buddy, Brian Winhorse, that the parties around MSG had to shut down. I mean, you know, it is what it is. Joining us from San Antonio, Texas, the Frost Bank Arena. Frostbank Center? Can't remember. Frost Bank Center.

Frost Bank Center following San Antonio's 20-point victory in game four to even this series, the Western Conference Finals 2-2 is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners. Yeah, those Knicks fans who tend to ball up trash and throw to people, they're a lot more accurate than the Thunder Shooters were tonight. All I'm going to say about this one is that the Spurs shot 38% overall and 27% on threes and were ahead by 20 most of the second half. Yeah.

Listen. Victor Weniamah threw in that half-court shot was like... Here's a thing. He didn't throw it in. He shot it alarmingly easily, I would say. It looked very smooth, quite frankly. It was a blow of jump shot from half court. It was incredible.

That's exactly what it was. But when that went in, after neither team had made a three the entire second quarter before that, I was like, yep, I think this one's going San Antonio's way. And the second half certainly was nothing but spurts from there. Listen, man, The Thunder, they've got some problems right now. You know, A.J. Mitchell has a calf strain.

He hasn't been ruled out officially of the series, but common sense tells you it's probably pretty unlikely that he'll be able to play again in the series. Jaylon Williams, J. Dub, has the hamstring. They're still calling it soreness, not a strain. You know, we will see if he's able to. He's played seven minutes since he walked off the court the other day. Yeah, so we'll see if he's able to come back in the series. But that's a lot of creation, a lot of playmaking sitting on the bench and street clothes.

It's a lot of burden just planted on Shea's shoulders, and Shea's got enough to deal with it. He's got to deal with Stefan Castle up in his grill. He's got to deal with all these double teams. He's got to deal with if he does find a crack in the defense, you've got a seven and a half foot alien back there, you know, waiting to reject your stuff. The Spurs are an elite defensive team. The Thunder are a wounded offensive team, and the Thunder, even under those circumstances, did not play well. You know, as Mark Daganalt said, the Spurs physically. was much more impactful than the force that Thunder played with.

And that's how you have their highest turnover game in the playoffs and the worst shooting game of the playoffs. When the Thunder are getting out turnover in a game like they did tonight, when they had more turnovers than the Spurs did. That is obviously not a recipe for success for them, particularly when they're missing AJ Mitchell, even though he struggled in this series four, he got hurt and Jalen Williams. And I thought it was really smart of San Antonio. I mean, you mentioned the double teams, but man, there weren't a ton of those today. I mean, there were a couple, but it was a lot of just, we're going to make you go at Stefan Castle and score,

and we're not going to allow you to make these easy passes to open guys for three-point shots. Now, Jared McCain was very bad today. He was as bad today as he was good the other night. Jalen Williams was great the other night. Couldn't at the broad side of a barn today. Obviously, those guys missing open shots hurts. But I thought it was a smart strategy for San Antonio to say, all right, the other two main ball handlers are not on the court.

let's just make Shea try to manufacture points on his own and not let these guys start the blender and get easy looks. I thought that was a big part of what allowed San Antonio to really build that early lead. As soon as those guys stopped hitting shots, then it was like, all right, where's the offense coming from? And it quickly became, like you said, even on a night like Brian said, where San Antonio didn't hit shots, it was the Spurs physicality really winning the day, it felt like. More than eight minutes in the game. Isaiah Hartnstein floaters were the only thunder buckets. And he came out and hit Flurry, but he hit four floaters,

and they didn't score other than that in the first eight-plus minutes of the game. And they've had bad starts both these last couple games. You know, the bench, I don't know, I don't know what the exact end scoring was, but it sure wasn't 76 in this game. I mean, they got some. Well, there was a lot of garbage time. So I got some garbage time stuff. To compute it.

But I will say that, you know, Bontems talked about this. we'll see what the report is on the double teams. I still feel like they brought double teams to Shea, but instead of double teaming him, like when he came over half court, and it made it easier to create four-on-three scenarios, they made him commit to his drive and then brought help. It's a subtle difference,

but it makes it easier for your players to help and recover. Yeah, and listen, I thought, like, Stefan Castle, you look at his box score line, it's nothing special. I thought he was awesome. Awesome. The third quarter tonight, he was the star on the court. Yeah, and I thought even the first half, like, you didn't do a whole lot offensively. But I thought defensively, obviously, you're always going to talk about Wimby when you talk about the Spurs defense.

I thought Stefan Castle was absolutely elite all night as the primary guy on Shea. And he set the tone. Yeah, Shea is not like a real, like powerful guy in terms of like, you know, he's not a huge guy. But you don't see him. get just manhandled very often. And I thought Stefan Castle got up in him and, you know, was dictating the terms of engagement all night in that match up. Yep.

One other thing for the for the Thunder. Obviously, no Jalen Williams and no A.J. Mitchell, you're losing incredible perimeter scoring perimeter shot creation. Against, you know, against the Lakers, Chet Holmgren dominated. Now, I know that the Lakers front line and the Spurs front line comparing the two is really a fruitless maneuver. But Chet had some huge performances in those games. Okay?

Look, Chet was 37 for 38 within five feet of the basket in the first two rounds of the playoffs. 37 for 38. I don't care who you're playing against. That's dominant stuff. He had a five-game run against Phoenix and the Lakers. These were his numbers. 24 and 12, 24 and 12, 22 and 9, 18 and 9. 16 and 9. He has failed to crack 10, I think, twice.

He's just not been good enough. I mean, he's just not been good enough. And it's looked like a mental thing, frankly. I mean, it... Well, I think number one has something to do with that. Well, but that's the mental thing. It's that guy wants to take his head off every time he plays him, and Chet has not risen to the moment on that. And going into game five, I mean, I said it after game two, even though we haven't fought in the last couple of days, but, like, chat was really bad in the first two games.

He had an okay game in game three. But, like, with these guys out, he can't have an okay game. He's got to be good. He has to be effective for them. I say Ardstein's been really good. But they need Chet Holmgren to be an impactful all-NBA caliber player to final two or three games this year, so however long it goes. They can't have him being borderline invisible,

which is what he's been through the first four. And he's, by default, he has to be one of their primary creators now. He only got eight shots up tonight. That's not enough. He had as many buckets as he did turnovers. That ain't going to cut. Honestly, the biggest surprise to me when I'm looking at the box score is Chet was a plus two because he was completely.

unimpactful. I mean, offensively, he was damn near invisible. And he was a third team all-NBA selection. I thought, deservedly so. He got to play to that level. He has to play that. And look, he did, like, he tried to dunk it on

Wimby early in this game, and Wimby returned that thing to Cinder, and I thought Chet was a very hesitant player the rest of the game. I have to say, it's a great point. I have to say the thing in the box score that made my eyebrow go up was the fact that Alex Caruso, who has been the X-Factor in the series, was shooting 60% from three.

He played 14 minutes tonight. He was minus 22. He's obviously been the plus-minus star of that series until tonight. McMahon, he got one shot off. Well, and look, that tells you that the spurs are no longer, they're not putting Wimby on him anymore, right? He shot him out of that. You know, Wemby was guard in the Biggs

tonight. So he shot the spurs out of that strategy. I mean, I would say the only silver lining is Caruso playing 14 minutes. You know, you would think his legs would feel fairly fresh. Yeah, Daggonaut waved the white flag in the fourth quarter. Yeah, but this was a, I mean, listen, man, Isaiah Hardinstein is really the only guy on the, if you want to say Kenrich Williams, who got minutes for the first time,

really all series. Those are the only guys I thought were halfway decent for the Thunder tonight. But everyone else, in Case of Wallace, had some stretches we used pretty good, but everybody else. Hey, during that stretch when Shea was out with the ab injury,

Casey Wallace, if you remember, he was putting together like 40-point high assist type of performances. They, he's got to be able to get him something. He's got to be able to give him something offensive. He's got to be able to give him something creation. And, you know, he like a lot of guys, when he does get in the pain and Wimby's on the floor,

he ain't looking at the rim. He's not looking at the realm. Paint's scoring tonight, 50 to 36. 36 ain't going to cut it, man. No, I mean, it's, I mean, again, the Thunder live off points off turnovers. They had more turnovers than they created today. The Spurs had a ton more free throws. The Thunder didn't hit any threes. I mean, they didn't check any of the boxes. And we should, and we should say, too, the Spurs played like a team that was down to one at home, right?

Like, they came out, and from the opening tip, they were insanely aggressive. I think you were spot on. Like, yes, Victor had some incredible plays like he always does. I thought the MVP of the game was Define Castle, but the way he set the tone right from the jump. No, Victor was incredible, but I just mean in terms of, in terms of, like, the tone was set by the ways to find Castle,

got into Shea from the second the game started, and Shea never felt comfortable the whole game. Like you said, he looked rattled the whole game. He's losing the ball, getting knocked away from him, committing turnovers. Like, he never was comfortable the whole game. and that was because of the unrelenting pressure that Castle put on him. And I thought that really did from the opening tip set the tone for what the level of desperation

the Spurs needed to play with to make sure they didn't go down 3-1. And I mean, obviously, Victor made like 19 insane plays. I mean, Brian texted us the one where he dunked on the fast break. I thought it was like his fifth or six best play of the game. Like he did just wild stuff. I just couldn't believe how he got from outside the foul line to the basket with his left hand. It was just a... He had another lefty dunk like that.

Castle wrapped behind his back and transition. And Wimby was like, oh, wait, I thought you were going to finish. I'm not even sure who Castle. It was a three-on-one fast break, and Castle just threw it behind his back. And he was like, one of you two guys get this. Somebody will get it. Well, how about the one where Victor tipped the ball? Victor was on the, I think, the left side of the basket.

The ball went up, and he went under the other side and, like, reversed, tapped it in, like a... He was playing volleyball. Yeah, I mean, that was insane, too. I mean, he tried to throw it up to himself off the backboard two or three times again. So the guy hits a, like a comfortable, good form pull-up half-court shot in the first half, and then 30 seconds in the second half catches a lob in traffic and gets an and one dunk. I mean, like, get you a big man who can do both. Yeah, just completely insane.

I felt that in game three, I felt that, um, that Victor looked a little fatigued. And if you looked at the rebounding, particularly the offensive rebounding, which is a real effort thing in a lot of cases, he had nine in game one, which was aided by overtime, but still, I think he had seven in regulation.

Then he had five offensive rebounds in game two. Then in game three, he had no offensive rebounds, and only four rebounds. And if you watch, I just felt in that game, McMahon, he looked tired. He was much more refreshed tonight.

Sure. And I think he was completely off his feet yesterday. We went to the Spurs availability. They had a film session. And then most guys got out there and got some shots up. Wemby wasn't in workout gear. He was in like a Nike tech suit. I think it was the recovery day.

Whatever he did on Saturday, do it again on Monday. Do the same thing. It's understandable that he was fatigue. Again, 49 minutes and most he played in his life, as great as he finished that game, you know, and proved he could run through the finish line. in a double overtime game, there's an effect of a 49-minute performance with that physical.

And then Hartnstein really was just leaning and grab it and pushing and shoving all over them in game two. And the thunder are able to send waves of guys at him. You know, it was like Chet said between games three and four, you know, he was talking about the advantage of having fresh legs to wear guys down. He said, but we're not just putting guys out there just for the sake of having fresh legs. The dudes going into the games are, dudes. The Thunder have a lot of dudes. Now, none of those dudes made shots tonight. That was a

pretty big difference. But, you know, Jalen Williams, Jay Will says, hey, man, when I go in there, I know I'm not going to play nearly as many minutes as Wimby. So basically, his job is to be as physical with him as possible to go all out balls to the wall and try to wear him down. Wimby did not look like a worn down guy. And the other thing is, the other staff that really stood out. I don't have his exact dunk total right now from tonight's game. I don't know if you guys do, but he had six dunks in game one. He only had two combined in games two and three. He had several tonight.

I don't know how many. He had at least a two or three tonight. I don't know how many wound up with, but it was, I think, seven. I'll take a look at the Bucksware here. Yeah, I mean, he was, you know, he was throwing it down tonight. A lot of this, I think, does go back to the game one where I think to play better adjustment is probably the thing that the Thunder have to lean into. but, you know, it's like we talked about coming out of game two with the injury to Dylan Harper

and the injury status of De Aaron Fox. Like, No AJ Mitchell and no J. Lin-Williams puts a ton of pressure on Shea to have to deliver. And Shay's got to be the best player on the court in game five. And that's a tall order when you're out there with Victor and you're out there with Stefan Castle in your face and Dylan Harper and all these guys who can Carter Bryant, who they can throw at them. But the MVP's got to have an MVP game in game five, probably without either of those guys playing. Obviously, they need the other guys to hit shots. They need the other guys to play better. They need to do a lot more of the stuff they did in game three. But Che's got to be awesome in game three for these guys. Like that's, it's stating the obvious, but it is pretty

clearly what needs to happen. Well, and look, Wimby has been the most dominant force on the floor in two of the four games. And the series is two, too, you know? And I said after game one, he's going to have to do it four times. He's halfway there, you know? And, You know, Shea, honestly, Caruso has probably been their best player and at least one of their wins. But Shea, no, he understands. And it's even more amplified just by the fact that he is really the only big-time creator that they've got healthy right now. You know, casewalls can do a little bit there. You know, they'll need Chet to do a little bit.

They need the Jared McCain from game three to show back up. but Shea is carrying as heavy and offensive burden as you possibly can right now against just a loaded defense. Four dunks tonight, one Alleyup layup, which was kind of like a dunk, but four official dunks. And by the way, since I was just looking at the play-by-play, they gave him 43 feet on that shot at the halftime. All right, the second court there.

Might have cheated him a couple feet. I thought he was right at half court. I got to figure out, why does he ever go? inside the like 30-something feet. Every time I've seen this guy in this year he takes him from 30 plus feet, it's on twice the rim. I think he's got

two 30-footers already and then he's got a 40-footer in four games. It's just crazy. He really is. He's a hilarious player. Like you will laugh out loud multiple times a game watching this guy play just because some of the things he does. I did tonight sitting on my couch.

It was unbelievable. I also cracked up when he hit the half-course shot and Stefan Castle like jumped in his arms. Careful. Yeah, it's like, hold on. That is the Thunder played in this game. But down five, I believe, with the ball with about a minute to go in the first half, right? That's right.

And that was the whole game, that final minute of the second quarter. And the first, like three minutes of the third quarter. Well, but at that point, it was already back to double digits at halftime, right? Like, if they, if they able, if they close the half well, it's a one or two possession game. and you're thinking, man, the thunder are on the road without these guys, they're playing like crap, and they're right there. Like, that's just, and you...

And there would have been a ton of pressure on the spurs because you go down to be one, it's all but over. And instead, they have a 7-0 run capped off by Victor hitting this half-court shot. And you could see, you could see plainly on the broadcast, that shot goes in, and Jayla Wayne's couple other hand, I was just like, come on. Like, are you kidding me?

This half-court shot goes in about a touch in the rim. Like, that was just a soul-crushing. minute. And then of course, like you said, they come out to start of the third quarter, the Spurs are feeling good. They go in a run the game's over right there. But like that, that was a massive moment in the game and the Spurs rose to it. And they, look, this was a huge moment for them, a young team down to one against the champs. And they came out and from the opening minute of the game just were like, yeah, we're going to win the game today. And we're going to set the tone and we're going to get in your face and we're going to make

like miserable for you and they succeeded on every front like it was awesome there was a kind of a quasi elimination game because if you go down three one your chances of beating the thunder i don't care who's healthy your chances of beating the thunder three in a row with two games in oklahoma city i just don't like them so they came out tonight like a team that had to win to stay alive which is the exact inverse of the way the calves came out against the nicks in cleveland on Saturday night, which we'll talk about in the second, McMahon, you have to go to work and go do some writing. And so we appreciate you joining us. Do I get my Adios amigos now or do I come back and get a came back and get a cameo at the end? Talk to Jackson about that. You got to do it now.

Adios amigos. More hoop collective podcast after this. Okay, McMahon went off to do some work. Our editors will be happy. He will get them some copy eventually. So now, Now let's turn towards what's going on here in Cleveland, Fontems, where the Knicks have a 3-0 lead and we'll attempt to close out the Cavs on Monday night and go to the first finals since 1999, which, you know, was a lockout year and they were the eighth seed, and that was kind of a wonky playoffs, but whatever, it counts. But basically, this is, you know, most of the Knicks players or many of the Knicks players weren't even alive or certainly aware last time they went to the finals.

It is a big accomplishment to be in one win away. And I will tell you that the field that I got from being around the Knicks last night was that they are very much focused on the bigger picture. Having said that, getting one more win is a major accomplishment for the Knicks. And so I do think that should be acknowledged. But they have been far in a way the better team in this series. They had a pretty thorough beating of the Cavs. There was essentially no drama.

in that game. You're expecting a team down O2 playing at home to really fight back the Knicks scored 37 points in the first quarter and maintained a comfortable lead throughout and pretty much had their way with the Cavs. And I will tell you that there's two ways to look at this. You can certainly look at it from the Cavs perspective, but I really think that the Knicks are just proving to be a very good team with a very potent roster that has come together at the right time. We've seen this occasionally over the years where a team hits its potential. And a lot of people judge teams on what their potential could be. This team was judged throughout the year and what its potential could be.

There was frustration when they didn't live up to it. Well, they're living up to it now. And now is when you have to live up to it. And so they are a very formidable team. And one went away from being a very formidable Eastern Conference representative in the finals, I think. Yeah, I mean, we've talked about it a lot during this 10-game run where they now have a plus, I believe, 225 point differential, the greatest point differential over 10 games in the history of the NBA, regardless of the regular or postseason, which is a pretty

remarkable statistic when you look at the way the Knicks have played. And look, the Knicks were a team that was less than the sum of their parts for the better part of two years. And that was a frustration that people had with the Knicks basically all of last season. There's a frustration that people had with the Knicks basically all of this season. And after game three against the Atlanta Hawks, a month ago, unbelievably, the Knicks have ripped off. one of the best 10 game stretches you'll ever see. And it's been remarkable. And hardly any of the games have been close.

I mean, obviously they had a huge comeback in game one where they should have lost and the calves blew that one. But, you know, and they obviously had the close game in game two against the Sixers at home in the last round. But other than that, pretty much every one of these games has been a very comfortable victory. And the way they're playing on a string, totally locked in, different guys stepping up contributing. It's incredibly impressive.

And, you know, we just got done talking about the spurs and the urgency with which they played in this game four. And I thought, you know, watching at home, I thought our broadcast crew did a great job of emphasizing the pretty clear lack of desperation from the Cavs. And what I thought was a pretty clear feeling of desperation from the Knicks to go back to what you talked about on the pod after game two, which was. This is a golden opportunity for the New York Knicks to get this series done and dusted and get rest and avoid injury and wait to see what happens in this war on the other side, right? And the Knicks came out from the opening tip of game three and looked like a team on a mission to put a hammer lock on that series.

And the Cavs, frankly, never seemed to get out of second gear the entire game. It was a very weird performance, I thought, from a team that was down. 102 coming home where they'd been very good in the playoffs. And they just didn't really have much life in them the whole game. And like you said, it was sort of a whole-hum 15-point game, the entire game had felt like. Yeah. You know, the Cavs, so all right, let's deal with what happened on Sunday,

which is Kenny Atkinson, you know, had availability of practice. And, you know, he has talked throughout. this series. You talk throughout the season, but particularly throughout the series. He's been talking about expected shooting percentages and whatnot, which is, you know,

an analytically, an analytic metric where you take, you know, what a certain shooter, you know, should shoot based on his average for the season, based on how open he was, etc. It's a complex

multi-layered analytic device. It's essentially just accounting for shot luck if you want to just boil it down. Right. It's an attempt to quantify luck. Basically what Kenny Atkinson is saying is the Knicks have been lucky.

We've been unlucky and the Knicks have been lucky. And he has been referencing this during the series and he went for the Holy Grail of it on Sunday when he said analytically we should have won two of the three games. And, you know,

basically. hard thing to say. Whatever the stats say, I understand what Kenny's doing. It's kind of the same thing as after game one when he just had this fairly ridiculous attempt to try to make James Hardin into a good defensive player. I understood what he was doing then too, but you just don't have to say anything. Just say, we've got to play better in game four. That's all you have to say.

You're down all three in the series. Don't try to say you're actually up to one on paper because you're not. Right. It's just like, look, regardless of what the readout might say, regardless of what you might believe, it's just, it's an impossible cell right now. Right. It's one thing to say, it's one thing to say, look, we've gotten unlucky in this series. We feel like we can generate good looks. If we hit open shots, we can get ourselves back in this series. That totally reasonable thing to say. Correct. Saying we are down 03, but really we're up to one, is a patently insane thing to say. Right. As again, it's frankly, I had a friend text me like, is this an AI video? When he saw, he's like, is this an AI video?

Like, is it a, is this a skit? Is this a Saturday Night Live skit? Was this written? It's a tone-deaf thing to say. Just like the James Hardin stuff was a tone-deaf thing to say. You don't have to say James Hardin stinks on defense. But you also don't need to say, oh, man, listen, James is great. And it was everybody else's fault that he was getting roasted by Jalen Brunson. Like, no, you don't have to say that easy. And his comment on that was we were lousy on offense and our help defense was just as culpable as James for giving up all those baskets to Brunson. There is some truth to that. Yes.

There is some truth to both of those statements. But again, just say there, we have to play better. Just say that. Right. Because this is just throwing fuel on the fire for absolutely no game at all. Exactly. Exactly. It's a, it's just an impossible sell.

Here's the other thing. The calves are just fatigued. They're just fatigued. And your models about shot luck and what you should be shooting don't count into the fact that the calves' legs are dead. Well, let's drill into that. Why are the calves' legs dead? Because they've played four.

No. No. A whole series more games in the playoffs and the next. But that's over. You know where I'm going. The calves legs are dead because they blew game four against Toronto, game they had in the bag, should have won, and didn't. To be clear on that,

that they were, it was in Toronto, they were up by, I believe, eight in the fourth quarter with five-ish minutes left, or nine with six months. The Raptors made like two-threes, the whole game. She had no business one in the game and came back and won the game at all. As a rough guide, I've always thought, and this is not backed up by anything.

This is just me watching a lot of basketball. If you lead by more points, than our minutes are remaining, you should win that game. It's a reasonable theory. Okay, so I think they were up eight or nine with four or five minutes left. More than enough to win the game.

They don't win the game. That series goes seven games. They have a chance to close out the Detroit series in game six at home. They get absolutely demolished. Yes, they come back and win game seven in advance. But if they win that game six, yes, they would have had to come back

and play game one on Sunday, but they would have had three days off in the middle of this series and it would have had a chance to get some rest. And then in game one, they're up by 22 or 23 with eight minutes to go in the game and they completely implode, have one of the worst collapses I've ever seen and lose that game going away in overtime.

Like, it's one thing to have one of those games in the playoffs. To have three of them in the playoffs, you're just not going to come back from that. And they managed to survive the first two and they are not going to survive the third. Right. And if you, I mean, you know, look, in the playoffs,

the other teams are good. I could see you losing in one of those spots. But you lose in all three. Like I said, they've played four more games than the next half. Okay? I keep referencing their playoff record because it's an indication of where they are as a team.

They're eight and nine in the playoffs. Okay. So they're shooting 29% on three in the series. And their legs, I think, are dead. I mean, you look at, People look at Donovan Mitchell and they're saying, what's his injury? What's his injury? He has no burst.

Well, he may have something nagging him, but he has no burst because his legs are gone. Yeah. Okay. And Hardin is the same way. And their other shooters are the same way. They have played incredible amounts of minutes more than the team that they're playing. And I would just say, as we see the injury report stack up and more players play through injury. And now, like, look, I mean, I'm sorry.

certainly take if you're asking me if i'm taking you know either this if you're taking if you're asking me how many games the spurs uh thunder series is going to go and you set the over under at six and a half what do you take him bantams kind of tempted to take the under and think the spurs are going to win the next two but i'll say i'll say seven i'll say okay i think that series got a real reasonable chance to go and should go seven it should go okay so you know if you're the nix plunge the dagger finish it off and go do what you just did right again well and that's what they look like in game three. For the moment the game started, right?

They came out on a mission to put that series away. And the calves, the calves looked like a team that was up to all on the road. Like, they just had no emotion, no real fight, no energy. Like,

you know, they just, I mean, I mean, hell with two minutes in the game, they just quit. I mean, it's just,

what I'm about to say, it was wild to see. I feel like could get me in trouble. All right, let's go. Say it. But, you know, I've covered many playoff runs in Cleveland. Many, many.

You know, I've covered, I think, five different teams that have gone to the finals. We've covered every relevant playoff run for the last 20 plus years. Yeah. The city doesn't feel, like, you know, there's not like super amounts of signage around town. The building last night. I mean, it was good, but, you know, I've been to so many playoff games. So that building is, I mean, that building is truly a great playoff. building. I was talking with

some of the Knicks folks last night and it's a uniquely designed building where there's like three decks where the first two decks are sort of closer than normal. There's like it's sort of a unique, there's no other arena

in the league designed like it. And even though it's 30 years old, it doesn't feel old. Like, you know, there's some arenas in the NBA that are 30 years old that are worn the F out. For sure. And this one is not one of them. But anyway, the building didn't have the juice that I normally, I just, what I'm wondering is I'm wondering if the,

if everybody here truly believes in this run. Well, those fans have seen great teams, like truly great teams. And this, this is not one of those teams. Like, they, I mean, look, they've had one of the least impressive. Yeah, I don't want to take anything away from them. I just, I'm just telling you, I don't, being in this city for so many big games, I just don't feel it.

Look, the fact of the matter is it's one of the least. impressive conference finals appearances we've seen. Like, they wheezed their way through two series. I don't like parsing conference finals runs. Listen, I'm just, it is what it is, man. They played a injured Raptor's team and struggled to beat them, and they played a young and what felt like an overmatched Pistons team, and we're lucky to beat them in some ways.

Like, you know, it is what it is. Like, they won the games, they got to the conference finals, it's a big accomplishment for Donovan Mitchell and Kenny Atkinson and James Hardin had been in the conference finals in I think, what, eight years? I think since that 2018 series against Golden State.

Yeah, it's not nothing. It's not nothing to do that. But if you come into this series, was anybody really thinking it was, I picked the Knicks to win in five. I think the general consensus was the Knicks were going to win in five, maybe six games.

The Cavs are certainly talented enough to win the series. I think the calves are talented enough to win a couple games now in the series. I'm not certain it's going to be a sweet. If the Knicks were playing below their level, like not just not at their best, if they were playing a little bit off, like the calves have been a little bit off from their best.

Their calves have been a little bit off from their average, frankly. If the Knicks were playing a little bit off from their average and the calves were playing their best, they absolutely could win. They could beat the Knicks. But that's not the case at all. It's the exact inverse of that right now. No, for sure.

And I would even say if the calves were just playing playing well because, look, the calves have a ton of talent. I mean, for most of the season, the calves and the Knicks were in the exact same spot. They came into the season as two teams that were favored, the two co-favorits to make the NBA finals. This was the projected conference finals matchup before the season started. And throughout the season, both the Knicks and the Cavs, I mean, you follow the Cavs more than anybody, both these teams were sort of in the same spot. They were less than the sum of their parts.

They were kind of disjointed. They had weird losses. they were kind of frustrating to watch. Nobody was really sure what to make of them, right? And the first round starts, and the Knicks are down 2-1, and the Cavs are 2-2. I think it was that afternoon when the Cavs lost to Toronto to go to 2-2 of game 4 for the Knicks.

So through the first three or four games of the playoffs, these teams were in the same spot. The difference is the Caves down at the half of game four? I think so, but I don't. remember for sure. I think he came out and played well in that game. But the point is... Yeah, I remember like the second half of game four is when they took flight.

Well, the point is, through the first half of the first round, both these teams would have been seen as underachieving disappointments. The difference is the Knicks turned into a supernova that hasn't cooled off since, and the calves have remained an underachieving disappointment that has weased their way through these series. Look, they've executed in

and in game sevens. Like you, Game sevens, they've survived in advance. Yeah, they've survived in advance. And if, and listen,

if the calves, again, it's a what if, but if the calves had taken care of business in game one, then just close that game out. Like, everything could be totally different

because the Knicks had all this pressure on them. They looked like it for the first 40 minutes of game one. They were a total mess. The calves played incredibly for about 20 straight minutes. They had the game under control. And if Cleveland wins that game, I mean,

you know what it would have been here for 48 hours. a minute sheer panic. Oh, man, are the Knicks going to lose again? They lost game one to Indiana last year. They're going to lose game two again like they did last year. Is this just going to be another, you know, Lucy and the football moment for the Knicks, right? But they escape, they get the win, they come back and play well in game two, get another home win, keep home court. And then, like I said, it was just, it was so striking to see how the Knicks approach game three and how the calves approach game three.

because the Knicks played with the desperation The Spurs Day Tonight down 2-1 in game four. And the Cavs just didn't have that. Whether it's legs, whatever it is, they didn't have that kind of urgency, really at any point in the game. And, you know, I thought the cows are going to come out like an absolute house of fire in game three.

I thought the Knicks could win, but I thought the Cows are winning that game. And it was very surprising to me that the Knicks just were basically, in control the entire time. By the way, McHale Bridges is shooting 65% in the playoffs. I mean,

some of the shooting for the Knicks is truly, truly out of this world. It really is. Though I will say, it is, like they are just running solid offense and taking open shots and they're moving the ball

and like, McHale, McHall Bridges is getting open jumpers. Excuse me, sir. I just checked with Kenny Atkinson. The Knicks are lucky. It's so lucky. Andrew Shammett is 7 of 8 on 3s in the series.

Like, you know, he's running hot. But Carl Towns, Carl Towns is actually, his numbers are mildly down in this series from the last round. He's shooting under 50%. He's not really needed as much in this series. The ball is way more in Brunson's hands. Brunson's, by the way, Jalen Brunson is 2 of 17 on 3. I mean, like, I don't see the same numbers

that Kenny Atkinson is seeing, you know? him just say, but Jalen Brunson. I mean, listen, it's very easy to draw up how he would say the Cavs, how he would get to that point. I mean, in game two, the Cavs were 9 for 35 from three and their good three-point shooters missed all of them. And Josh Hart, who is not a good three-point shooter, made every three, right? Like, that's what he's talking about.

Josh Hart is 8 of 23 on threes in the series. Correct. Brunson is two of 17. He made basically all of them in that game. Listen, I know. I'm not trying to defend Kenny Atkinson on how, but his comment. It's just...

Also, I could see where the expected shot would say it's 2-1. I've also heard a lot about expected shot numbers being around the Celtics a lot over the past several years. And expected shot numbers win you zero games. So I saw some Nick's reaction in the last, you know, yesterday certainly, but just in general, you know, in reference to how well Bridges has been playing, you know, bleep them picks, you know, concept. I do just want to say this about the Bridges trade when it comes to the picks. And, you know, the picks go out through 28, I think, or actually 31.

I think the farthest one out is 31. Yes, I was going to say, it's a lot farther than 28. But let me just say, the picks that the Knicks have sent so far, I think picks 19 and 26 in last year's draft, which were Nolan Traori and Ben Saroff. I'm not even worried about the players they pick. Let's just move away from that. But it depicts 19 and 26, and this year, the pick is in the mid-20s. I'm not sure which pick it is.

Now, the picks are unprotected in 29 and 31, and there's an unprotected swap in 28. It's not about where the picks land. Well, it is right now. I think. But that's not what you judge. Again, this goes back to the discussion we had all season about the hawks tree. Like the process of the Hawks Pelicans trade from the Pelican standpoint was awful.

There's just no arguing that. Now, they didn't get the bad luck of having the Hawks jump up into the top four, but they gave up the 23rd pick and a lottery pick for the 13th pick in the draft. Like, that's just bad process. I think the jury is out on whether the McHale Bridges trade ultimately winds up being good process. Because, A, the old. result to me that matters is not where the picks land. It's do the Knicks win a title?

Because you make that trade to win a title. And this has been an unbelievable season. And I don't think it should be denigrated if the Knicks get to the finals and lose. And I'm not saying the Knicks are going to lose necessarily because they're playing out of their minds. But you make that trade not to make the finals, but to win a title or to win titles. So if we get

to the end of this run and the Knicks have one finals appearance and don't win a title, you could make an argument that by making that trade and shutting the door on really any other opportunity to use picks to go get some other star player, be it Janus or whoever, right, you could argue the opportunity cost wasn't worth doing that trade at the time. But a lot of that is also revisionist history. And at the end of the day, the Knicks have made the trade. And wherever the picks land, like, you know, that is less relevant to me than what was the point of it?

Like to go back to the way back to like the first one of these mega trades, right? When I covered when the Nets and Celtics made the Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett trade, if that Nets team had won a title in 2014 and then the Celtics had gotten the third pick in the draft in 17 and the third pick in the draft or 16 and 17, right? That trade would have been a win for Brooklyn. But they didn't. They got to the second round once. Like that's not good enough to trade all those things.

Do you know why it would have been a win? Because you never have to say you're sorry if you win a title is a very wide. person is set. Because winning a championship means ever having to say you're sorry. But that's, look, the whole debate about both the Carl Towns trade and the

McHale Bridges trade in tandem, right, is it basically locked the Knicks into this team and this group. And the question always was going to be, is this group good enough? And I, you can argue,

like if the Knicks win one more game, which I think they are, I would now think they will win that Monday night, but we'll see. Maybe it'll be Wednesday or Friday or Sunday. Maybe the luck will turn drastically. Maybe it'll turn all the way around and the Cavs will win the series 6-1. Maybe that'll happen. But assuming they do, and they make the final.

Yeah, what if they win? Actually, we should, as Kenny Atkinson holds the Eastern Conference, we actually should have won this six. Well, we should have won this in four. It'll be the first six-one series and it'll be a history if that happens. But if the Knicks make the finals, like, I think you can make a credible argument that those trades were worth it because you get to the finals and you give yourself a chance. And that's what you're trying to do. Well, the Knicks fans that were revelrying in the euphoria of going up 3-0 were deciding that it was worth it. Well, sure, and I get that.

And also like- You can't decide that yet. Obviously, if they win five more games, you decide it. But as you just said. Oh, for sure. I'm saying when you have the scorecard and they say five first round picks, just remember that the first three picks are 1925 and whatever this year is, 25. That's fine.

But the, anyway, the other thing to account for too in what the Knicks were doing, and you've written about this as of I, when the Knicks made those two trades going into last season, they basically were saying, all right, we're going to have this team for the next four or five years and where all this chaos is going to happen around us and the second aprons, which the calves are now in.

The Celtics have had to sacrifice players because of the second apron. You know, the pistons are about to have to spend a lot of money. All these other things going on. The Knicks have their core guys all under contract and locked in for basically a five-year stretch. And their bet was if we can keep this group together and not be in the second apron,

which they're not to this point anyway, they're going to get opportunities and they're going to get a couple of bites at the apple and they can maybe get one. And what I would say is, whatever your opinion is on McHale Bridges, that thinking in year two looks pretty good because they're sitting one win away from the finals

and they've got a team that should be able to repeat this for the next couple years. I'm not saying they're making the finals the next couple years, but they're going to be right there the next couple years, whereas Cleveland and Boston and Indiana and Detroit and all these teams have a lot of questions. Right. And I will say this.

I know that Leon Rose didn't say this publicly because he doesn't say anything publicly. But their play all along when they saw, when they evaluated the incoming aprons and what they had was to win the long game against the Celtics and the bucks to a lesser extent. Right. was that they believed that, especially when Jalen Brunson took that contract that freed them up to put this team together, their play was will, because of their, because of the aprons and the situation that we, meaning the Knicks, will outlasts the Celtics and the bucks. And they have. That looks right now like that strategy is coming home.

Yeah, they have. And look, and they might outlast the calves to. Like, let's see what happens with the Cavs this summer? Yeah, the Cavs sort of built this team a little bit after the Knicks, you know, went all in. You know, I don't know. We'll talk when the Cavs lose another game, we'll talk about whether what will happen with them in the offseason. Right. But you got Indiana, you know, Indiana has obviously got an interesting summer ahead.

Detroit's got an interesting summer ahead. You know, the Knicks, yeah, they got to get Mitchell Robinson signed, but the Knicks have their team. And they haven't been in the second apron yet. They're set up really well. Yeah, I mean, it's, and, you know, now that they, I mean, the way they're playing now, I mean, this is, it's, it's, it's something to watch. It's, it's pretty, it's pretty wild and it's pretty fun. All right, well, we're talking more about that come, come Tuesday.

More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust.

Visit wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. All right, the all-MBA team came out on Sunday. There are obviously going to be certain fans who have their favorite players who feel a certain way about this. Again, based on the regular season, you know, coming out six weeks into the playoffs always makes us a little bit dicey because you're saying, well, how can you say this when this guy has been gone for weeks? And that's all. There was a lot of chatter about Jalen Duren on Sunday when there was no chatter about Jalen During being at all NBA player a month and a half ago when the voting was done. Right. So let me go through the teams real quick in case you didn't see them.

The first team was Shea Gildes Alexander was all on all 100 ballots, Yokic on all 100 ballots, Victor Wimbunayama on 99 ballots. Luca Donchich on 91 ballots. Those are all quasi-unanimous. Cade Cunningham was on 60 first-team ballots and 38 second-team ballots. So, you know, very high up. There's your five. That's pretty much how. Just to be clear, Victor and Luca, we're on 100 ballots,

but they had one and nine second-team votes. But those four guys all got 100 votes. Right. I'm sorry, yes. But I'm just saying it was unanimous. for. Yeah, no, I was just, I was just clarifying people. All right. So, like,

you know, you know, there, it was relatively close between Jalen Brown. I mean, there's only a few things that were close on this. Jalen Brown was, you know, Kade Cunningham had 414 total points.

Jalen Brown had 384. He was close to second. Kade Cunningham had 60 first place votes, first team votes. Jalen Brown had 44. It was somewhat close, but... 12 guys had 95

votes, and Jalen Johnson had 87. Well, don't go. I don't want to get too far ahead, please. Sure. Okay. But, you know, like, again, if you're a Jalen Brown fan, you could say that Jalen Brown got screwed, and like I said,

the vote was relatively close. I just don't think this vote is controversial. First team All-N-Ba ballot was everybody's top five for MVP, and Jalen Brown, who was sixth in MVP, was sixth in voting. It's not Jaylen went on his Twitch stream. It said that the media doesn't like him

so he got robbed. I would say the media voted for Jalen for a conference finals MVP and finals MVP two years ago and likes Jalen fine and he had a fantastic year. He also made all NBA a couple years ago. That's what I mean.

You know, when he got his bonus. When he got his Supermax extension, he had a great year. Like I said, if you're a Jalen Brown fan, I'm not going to talk you out of it. I'm just saying, I don't think it's controversial.

It is not. Okay. The second team was Jalen Brown, Kauai Leonard, got slightly one little more vote than Donovan Mitchell. So, you know, so Jalen Brown got the sixth most votes. Kauai Leonard, seventh most votes. Jalen, Donovan Mitchell, eighth most votes.

And then Kevin Durant, very close. And Jalen was on 100 ballots, and all those guys were on at least 97. So it's pretty much, the top 12 or 13 guys are pretty much unanimous. And then Jalen Brunson. is the last second team member. He got no first place votes, but was pretty much in everybody's second or third.

99 out of 100 bouts. Yeah. He had a fair, comfortable, you know, comfortable making second team ahead of Tyrese Maxie, who had the most votes on the third team. The third team is Tyrese Maxie, Jamal Murray, Jalen Johnson from Atlanta, making his first all-MBA team.

This is Maxi's first all-MBA team? I believe so, yes. Okay. And then two guys who will certainly be debated in the coming days based on their playoff performance, which is Jalen Duren and Chet Holmgren, who made his first ever all NBA team. And he had a pretty significant lead. It was not that close. The first guy out was Denny Avia, but it was not that close.

For example, Chet had 63 third team votes, and Denny had 23. So Chet won it, you know, got that spot relatively comfortably. Obviously, Duren did not have a good postseason, and Chet is struggling in this series, to put it mildly. Chet, the two series before this was 37 for 38 from the field, or inside of five feet. I mean, Chet was great. I mean, he struggled against Victor, but again,

this isn't a award on postseason performance. It's on play across the regular season. And look, I had Jalen Duren and Chet. I had these 15 guys. This was my ballot. One of the tougher decisions on my ballot was choosing between Scotty Barge who hardly got any votes and Denny Obbia and Kevin Durant, who was the last guy I put on as my final third team guy.

But, you know, like I say with these things all the time, There are a lot of really good players. You have to cut off somewhere. It's a very difficult decision. I always spend a couple of hours on All-NBA trying to figure out who to vote for every year because it matters a lot. I think about it during the year a lot.

A couple hours on the literal day I'm doing the votes. I mean, I think about it a lot. But, yeah, like, it's... None of this is particularly controversial to me this year. Yeah, I mean, like, if you're a Carl Talat, if you're a Knicks fan, you can say, well, O.G. Ninobe, the other day the defensive teams came out, and O'GNobey didn't make first team.

You know, you can say, boy, you know, the media hates the Knicks because O'G. Ananoby made second team and Carl Towns, you know, finished basically 17th in the voting. I mean, you know, again, if you're a Knicks fan, you're going to feel a certain way. I'm not going to talk you out of it. I just know that it wasn't, none of these were really close. I had O.G. first team all defense. I think I did too.

I can't actually remember. I can certainly check, but I thought OG was very, very potent. I thought this was the best year of OG's career, and he's been having the best playoffs of his career. And he's been even better in the playoffs. No question. After a rusty game one, he's looked pretty damn good in games two and three for the Knicks. And another reason why it's critical for them to win is to make sure he doesn't do anything of that hamstring, and he gets another week off.

I mean, that would be gigantic if they could get another eight or nine days for him to just sit back. and rest that hammy and make sure he's 110% for whoever they face in the fines. Yeah, that's that. Thank you very much to all of our producers, to Tucker and Mark and Miles and Jackson. Thank you to McMahon for coming on earlier. Thank you for listening and watching The Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you later this week. Bye, everybody.