Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Wemby’s Outrageous Skillset On Display, NBA On-Court Product Best It Has Ever Been

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk Victor Wembanyama’s triumphant return to Paris in a win showcasing his entire skillset before talking the future of the NBA in Europe after NBA Commissioner Adam Silver’s comments. Plus, a strong reaction to Silver’s thoughts on the state of the on-court product in the league. Finally, another significant injury blow in Dallas and an extremely unique trade between the Jazz & Suns Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Friday morning here in Paris. Ooh, who.

But Thursday evening in New York City where Timb's is a rare night with no game. That's true. Well, everybody. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, it's Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners? Usually you have a little quip commentary. I look out. It's Friday morning.

I want to get you to bed as soon as possible. It's fine. It's fine. We're not afraid to work here on the Hoop Collective. So I went to an NBA game tonight here in Paris, and it ended up being a 30-point game. And Victor Wenbanyama was absolutely, he described his night in French. I'm trusting the translation that I got as perfect. The crowd, first off, I would describe what's going on here right now as an all-star weekend

built around one player, around one person. And Chris Paul actually said when he was out there pregame, and the game was about to start it, it felt like an all-star game because the court is lit with the theater lighting, with the heavy theater lighting, like you get on an all-star game. And there's just immense, you know, pageantry around the game. It is a huge media contingent. I honestly believe, and this could be a function of just credentialing for the, what it takes to get a credential for the Olympics. This is the same arena that I was in for the gold medal game or the, you know, knockout rounds. The media contingent is larger for this than it is. You know, there's people from all over Europe,

reporters from all over Europe who've come. And the league said that they had, they sold tickets. This capacity is 15,000 for this arena. So it's a good size arena for Europe. But for the two games, one on Thursday and one on Saturday, that they sold tickets to people

from 53 different countries. Wow. I wonder how many of those are bots that are buying for the resale market. I wonder how many of those were from Indiana, because this was a Pacer's home game. Oh, my God.

Was it not? Victor came out and said, you know, Bonsois, Perri, you know, good evening Paris was like, you know, how he, you know, we took the mic before the game. And Rick Carlisle was like, I don't know what he said to that crowd, but it worked. Well, I'll tell you.

And he could have said pretty much anything. You said it was like an All-Star game. Yeah. He was doing some things you see in an All-Star game. Like, oh, driving, throwing the ball off the glass and dunking it, but doing it like in the course of like legitimate competitive moments, Wimby had two different like multi-possession sequences in this game that had me, a grumpy old man, guffawing all sitting on my couch.

Was one at the end of the third quarter? Oh my God. Are you serious? The man, just the man, blocks a shot at the rim, in one motion grabs the rebound, leads the break. Boom, I think was Stefan Castle. you know, lob pass to him. Seven foot five, blocking it, grabbing it, however many dribbles, probably like two dribbles

as long as his strives are three, three or four, whatever, into a lob pass for a teammate. Comes back, blocks another shot. Those the outlet pass ends up getting it back on the right wing, pump fake, drive, kick to a teammate for an open three. And then what does you do on the next defensive possession? blocks another shot. This one was like a freaking volleyball spike. Again ends up getting it outside the three-point line.

Pump fake drive kind of got stuck, kicks it out. I think it was Sohan drives right into a lob to wimby with a finish. And it would have been a four straight block, but the fourth one was a goal ten. But like, I've really never seen somebody dominate defensively and make plays on the offensive end. for that long of a sequence before. Like just flat out swatting everything

and making plays on the other end. And in the first half, he had one where crosses half core is a trailer, a catch and shoot three from the freaking logo. From one of the twos in the Paris 2025, swish.

Next possession comes up, sets a screen, slips it, dives to the rim, catches dunks. And then the, God, I don't remember what the possession was after that, but it was something ridiculous. And I don't remember what it was. I just remember it was three straight things.

I think it might have been a drive or whatever. Three straight possessions, three different ways to score. Just like the ability of this guy to dominate the game in completely different ways on consecutive possessions is amazing. And then like the shot blocking. I mean, I don't want to say. We've never seen anything like it because Akeem blocked 3,800 some odd shots. Telling you this. Yeah, I mean, Bill Russell back in the day, we don't have stats, but one assumes that there was a lot of domination.

Before Wimby, I thought Akeem's record would never be approached. I don't think that anymore. Well, it's our research group, I think, said he's reached 400 blocks in 108 games. I mean, even I could do the math on that. It's a lot. It's pretty good. I believe that's about four games. So what I thought was interesting, you know, in the end of the third quarter,

his probably his most mundane play that he had was at the buzzer, he had a putback. But it put him up 25. And the crowd, you know, gave him a standing ovation, sending him to the bench. And there's a scout that I know who was at the game. There was a French All-Star game earlier this week for their teenagers. They sort of did a display for all the NBA personnel here. And so he was in town for that. So he went to this game.

And he sent me a text at the end of the third quarter. he's like, I got some breaking news for you. Or in big freaking trouble in LA 28. Because I don't think he'd seen Victor play live before. Yeah. By the way, I reminded myself the third play in that sequence in the first quarter. So 32 footer from the logo, dive to the room for a dunk. Oh, just to lead the fast break and, you know, a look ahead dimed at Castle.

I mean, the guy's seven foot five jacking up 30 footers. dunking, leading the break, and swatting everything. It's insane. We have seen over time that Victor is a guy who really lives up to the big stage and really embraces the moment. And obviously, this is the first time we've seen two games played back to back in a city over in Europe like this. And at least in Paris, I think it's the first time anywhere. And as you said, Brian, this thing is clearly built around, hey, let's bring our new European superstar over here and make a whole week about them in one of the big, you know, big glamour cities in the world and try to enhance the European market, which I think we'll get into some more conversation about that in a minute.

And it is not surprising. We'll see what happens in the second game. But certainly, it's not surprising to see Victor step up in the first game and have an absolutely monster performance and deliver in every way, shape, or form, every way shape and form. like we've already seen him do a bunch of times in his career, whether it's on Christmas Day, whether it's this summer in the Olympics. He has a flair for the dramatic and an ability to step up in the moment. And it's one of the many reasons why he's got a chance to be the face of the league for a long time. Yeah. You know, before the game, Adam Silver had a press conference.

And he said it's a pleasure to be a part of the league with Victor Wenbanyama. And that's one thing he said during that press conference that I agree to it. All right. We'll get to that. After the game, game, Rick Carlisle, a Pacer's coach was like, France should be very, very proud. I mean, like, this is a guy who's 21 years old. Like, I mean, you know, uh, this, it's a, it's a, and so I mean by like, it's an all-star game for one person, you know, like, and, and he delivers in it like, you know, crazy. And, you know, it wasn't a particularly good NBA game. The Pacers had actually been one of the hottest teams in the league. I think they, they won by 30.

Of course it wasn't a good NBA game. I mean, come on. It's not a good any game. One team won by 30. It was a brilliant individual. Yes. I mean, the Spurs played well as a team. Don't get me wrong. But this is a brilliant individual performance. Oh, yeah, of course. The Pacers, just so you know, and I mean, we're over, you know, they had to travel and everything.

The Pacers since the new year had been like the number two defense in the league that, you know, they surrendered 40, 140 and 45 in the third quarter. Yeah. So it was an incredible show. You know, Victor said it was one of the top five performances he's ever had. Well, Christmas is on that list. And Victor is not, how about the 40-20 game? I was the first time I've seen him. I mean, I'm not even sure Christmas is on that list.

He had a nice game that day, but I mean, he missed a ton of shots. Oh, my God. No, I mean, the guy's got an impressive list. That's all I'm saying. His numbers in this game weren't unbelievable. It was a good game numbers-wise. But I think the reason he's saying that is just because everything. It was there.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it was a ho-hum, 3011, 6, and 5. Yeah, I mean. What's I'm saying, it wasn't ho-hum, but, like, you know, He's had a lot of games like that, statistically. And if it was a closer game, he would have stayed in and played more minutes down the stretch. Sure. I mean, just, again, the two sequences that I described was, I mean, they were real-time Victor Wimbunyama highly reels.

Where he's just a crazy thing. Possession after possession after possession. You guys know what I say. We put no ceilings on Victor Wimbuniama. This was a night where that felt real. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Okay, so before the game, Adam Silver had a press conference. It was a long press conference.

It went about 45 minutes. And there was a huge media contingent. Really, I can't believe how much media were there. And he was getting quick. He got questions from media from all over Europe and a few Americans. But really, what the focus was. And I know, and I'm not, guys, I'm not sure. I mean, we do have quite a few listeners over here.

I had a number of people in the last couple days. Asked me how my voice was doing. Thank you. It's back, just back in time. But, you know, I'm not sure how much the American fan cares about the NBA's European plans. But Adam Silver, I mean, it's not official, but he's basically saying what they're intending to do, which is, and this is we talked about in this press conference, that the NBA is seriously considering, or I would even so far go far to say planning, launching a European league. Yeah, I honestly don't know that Americans care much. I would imagine that, and you mentioned this in your story, but you obviously,

you've been on the ground there. I would imagine there's a lot of people in Europe who aren't especially thrilled by this. Like it's kind of saying, hey, you guys don't know what the hell you're doing with this league that you've had for decades and decades and decades. Let some professionals take over. Yeah. The Euro League, which is an 18 team league, which has teams from Spain to Israel, has been in existence since the 50s. You know, the NBA came in in the late 40s. So this has been around a long time. And the NBA, The NBA used to partner with the Euro League. That is obviously over for the time being.

And, you know, it hasn't been official. It's possible won't happen. But the NBA is going to come for it. And Adam Silver basically said, actually, let me get the quote because I don't want to be flippant. But he said, while Europe continues to develop some of the very best players in the world, many of our most recent MVPs are European, we think the commercial opportunity has not kept pace with the growth of the game. And what we do at the NBA is we run leagues. We run the WMBA. We have the basketball Africa league. We have the G League. We have a 2K video league. So we operate five different

leagues and we think it's an expertise that we have. So basically what we're saying there is they got great players over here, but their league ain't getting it done and we think we can make a bunch more money. Now, we can parse all this. What I would say is the most important thing, Bontems, is that expansion indeed is about to come to the NBA. And just to be clear, these teams would not play the NBA teams, different leagues. Maybe down the line, there would be some sort of crossover play. But the expansion that's coming to the league, what the league is looking at at expansion right now, the league is spending a lot of time on expansion. And by the way, the entire NBA front office was here. And I know it's Paris. I know people like to come to Paris, but this is a working trip.

It was like a finals or an all-star game, all of the brass, all of the top executives, all the top lieutenants, we're all here because they're all having meetings. But what it means, Bontemps is that they're not really focused on NBA expansion. So if you are a Seattle or Las Vegas fan, I don't, I mean, I don't think that's off the table. I'm not going to happen. But I think the timeline for that is definitely out because this is what I focus is. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't quite phrase it that way. I would say that nothing has changed on that front, right? Which is that, as we've said for a while now, the timeline for expansion in the NBA is going to be determined by what happens with the sale price, in particular, the Boston Celtics, who it seems like we're approaching,

you know, we should know, could know as soon as this week. I think we're going to know fairly soon, at least what the next stage of, I shouldn't say this week, but I think we're going to know fairly soon what the next stage of that bidding process is like. And if that number is, you know, north of $5 billion, I think that could very easily help along the expansion process. But look, like you said, when you look at this NBA Europe league that Adam talked about, today and we've been reporting on for a while, you and I, I come back to the same question McMahon had before, and it's the one I've had privately for a while, which is I just don't really understand what the point of this league is. I mean, the NBA would, I assume, say that, well,

you know, we'll get a bunch of expansion fees for creating these new teams, but there already is a Euroleague that exists. There's already a bunch of teams that are playing high level basketball in Europe. And by the way, as anybody who's ever talked to anybody who's played in Europe or has covered European basketball knows, these are not the European soccer teams that are awash in cash all the time. There's all sorts of issues with these teams on a regular basis. So I am very curious to see what the ultimate financials are of this thing and whether it actually gets off the ground because I've struggled for the last while now that we've reported on it to really see what the logical path is to this league making sense.

sense for the NBA to do, but there's no question they're heavily interested in doing it, as they showed with having everybody there and the way they've talked about it and the way they're clearly spending a lot of time thinking about it. It seems to me like the classic arrogant American sticking his nose where it doesn't need to be. Well, look, they've obviously put a lot of time. We don't need to, you know, break it way down. I would just say just to understand the finances of Europe, there are, you know, the average

NBA salary. The euro and the dollar are pretty close to one to one right now. Maybe it's a couple cents over for the euro. 96 cents to to a dollar. Okay. It's 96, I think it's one one one one one four to per euro I think is what you're saying. A dollar's worth uh, I don't know, whatever. All right. Anyway, the average NBA salary, literally the average salary is 12 million dollars. There are three players in Europe who make more than three million euros the whole year. And they none of them make more than 3.7 euros. I don't know. I just like to me. So just to illustrate the finances

of the two, I mean, not that you're comparing it, but the finances in Europe for these teams are just, it's not that, you know, it's, there's not, there's not, Silver is basically saying that they're underperforming. And that may be true, but just to understand, like, this is what they're paying their top players. I'd be much more interested in

marketing the NBA in Europe than trying to build a rival league to the Euro League. But, hey, what do I know? I don't have fancy degrees. I don't have all the understanding of everything. And I've spent a lot of time over here. I've spent time going to these games and everything like that. What I would say is, and I hate to be the saying, get off my lawn.

But I would spend the time developing the NBA in America, you know, to help that. Sure. By the way, you guys want to guess who the highest paid player in? I know. So I'm not going to. Is it still Muretich? No, it's not. That's a good guess.

He was when he went back. He's in the top. He's in the top 10. Who is it? Pontems. It's Sasha Vizankov who just left the raptors after getting traded from the Kings to go over there. Yeah, he got to buy out his contract, I think. Walked away from the money.

Yes, right. Yeah. To go back. He had a game like two weeks ago real quick just as a. Sasha Vizankov, Bob. He plays in Turkey, doesn't he? I think, Bonnese. Tim's? I believe he plays for Olympiacos now.

Oh, he plays for Olympiacos. That's right, in Greece. This is an interesting little factoid. You can, you can Google it. It's worth, it's worth Googling just to see it real quick. He had a 45-point game two weeks ago, and 45 points in a FIBA-style game is like worth 56 points, give or take, because the shorter game and the style of the game. Oh, you can't convert Euros to dollars, but you can't. That's right. Anyway, he had 45 points, and I believe he dribbled like 12 times. Oh, he's a terrific shooter.

Yeah, he's a terrific shooter. Oh, it's a terrific shooter. Oh, it's Asman. Yeah. So it was, that was, that was, I actually watched that because it was, it was crazy. Speak at a three-point shooting. Oh. Yes. Okay. So this is what fired up McMahon. Go ahead, McMahon. Okay. So I don't know who asked them the question. I don't know if there was an American, European, but it was an American. Okay. And the question was.

Commissioner, do you feel like the NBA has kind of reached an efficiency trap that baseball reached a few years ago, where teams were behaving in a way where they were trying to maximize winning, but it ultimately hurt the product. And baseball took a number of measures to try to fix that. And if you feel it has, does basketball, does the NBA need to do something smaller, big in that regard? Pardon my fringe. But what the bleep are you watching? Folks, don't listen to the blubbering idiots out there on the internet and maybe even on your TV.

This is the best offensive basketball of any era in the history of the game. It is the most aesthetically pleasing basketball that has ever been played. I do not understand why there's this fetish for mid-range jump shots. Like, when did mid-range jump shots become some kind of fun thing to watch? Let me just tell you, mid-range jump shots are like toes. There's a select few that are really pretty. What? The vast majority of them?

That was a curveball I was not expecting in Bontag. How many ugly-ass feet do you see? All right, you're out of your, you're right. Enough. No, I'm just telling you. That's the simple fact of the matter. That is, for those of you who can't understand elementary school math, that's how you should translate.

Well, listen, Boogie Man, I'm not done. Do not interrupt the commissioner. Okay, I told you, I'm giving my answer. He gave his like gentlemanly lawyer. I'm going better call Saul on that ass. Just continue. Listen, if you don't think like this is the most talented, skilled, diverse set of superstars in the history of the world,

it's because you're whining and not watching. Shade, I'll just go down the list just the top scores. Jay, Gildes, Alexander, you love mid-range jumpers? He has one of the most efficient. Oh, efficient's a bad word. He's one of the best damn mid-range jump shooters in the history of the game. The guy scores at every level. You want mid-range jumpers and tough defense,

turn into Oklahoma City Thunder games. You have to go on League Pass because we never put them on national TV, including Christmas, but we'll probably fix that next season. They have multiple Thunder games have been added to. national team. Don't interrupt the commission. You hate the three-porters. Just don't make this a 15-minute.

Adam Silver answer, please. Mute bont-tems. I have power of the commissioner's office. You really hate three-points. Just move along. You hate three-pointers, I will give you a double-fisted bird. Double that. That's how many times Janus has made a three this season,

and he's averaging 31 and a half points per game. You know, oh, guys are just shooting all these long jumpers. Janus is attacking the rim more ruthlessly, more relentlessly than anybody has ever done it. We're talking about a two-time MVP, finals MVP, who's the most dominant pain attacker that we have seen. How about you don't like threes? You know who shoots the fewest threes in the NBA? The Denver Nuggets. Now, if you live within like 600 miles of Denver, you can't watch them because our league pass is all jacked up.

Maybe we should worry about that instead of Europe. Yeah, not that many people in Denver can watch them because of the altitude. The altitude, the network issue. But Nicole Yolkich, dude, this is a 7-foot 280-pound Serbian blend of magic and bird, who makes 30-point triple doubles look easy. The best paint touch we've ever seen, one of the best passers we've ever seen. This is a team that flies up and down the floor, I mean, just scoring all different kinds of waves. the guy averages 30 and scoring is not even what he does best.

Now, the Mello Ball, okay, that's the fourth-leaning score. He does just jack up a bunch of crap playing pickup basketball, whoever crosses half court where the ball has it. That's the exception, though. He's made them. The Celtics. Oh, the Celtics shoot way too many threes. The Celtics had the best offense in NBA history last year.

You want to whine about how they shoot so many threes? You think there's jacking them up? Watch how they create threes. Like, give credit to some skill and some. some scheme. It's the best air of offense of basketball we've ever seen. You sit here, you whine about analytics. I'm going to go out there and watch Wimby, and you tell me who has more fun. That should have been the damn answer without Bontem's interruptions. Well, he has been waiting for this one. He has been waiting for this one. So I think, while I agree with everything you said,

I think you're missing the point of what he is saying and the concern that he has, which I don't agree with, but I'm going to explain, which let's go back a month ago to when Adam Silver talked in in Vegas at the NBA Cup and got asked basically the same question. Are there too many threes in the NBA? They gave a long answer about it, but the end of the answer is the most important part. Whether there's some tweaks we should make, and my sense is I do think we should take seriously this notion of more diversity in offense, to the extent that it's not so much a three-point issue, but that some of the audience, to some of the audience, some of the offenses start to look cookie cutter and teams are copying each other.

I think that's something we should pay attention to. Now, hold on, hold on, hold on. I completely agree with everything you said. If David Stern had been sitting there giving the answer to the question, he would have said, you aren't watching Denver and Oklahoma City and Milwaukee and Golden State and Cleveland and Boston and New York all play because they all play wildly differently and they have different styles. But that's not what the concern is, right? The concern is the NBA, which at times lives in an echo chamber, as we know, sees the online discourse about the league and sees the drops in television

ratings for the league and is going, what is the problem with the league? Now, just recently, we saw the college football national championship game with Ohio State and Notre Dame have a drop in ratings. We saw the NFL divisional round of the playoffs have drops in ratings. There are drops in ratings across the board. That's because the TV industry is going through a decline in ratings. So to your point, McMahon, building your business around trying to address the combination of echo chamber concerns and the drop in television ratings by saying we need to potentially change the geometry of the basketball court, I think is a ridiculous way to go about this. It is not what I think the former commissioner and the late commissioner would have done in

this circumstance. And I would go back to what Brian said, where you have a league full of these young, exciting star players, the NBA should be focused on pushing and marketing these young star players and not worrying about things like getting rid of corner threes, which I think would be a disaster that would cause more problems than it's good, or, you know, doing these other like, you know, baseball type changes to the sport. Baseball had a problem where a generation of fans was bored with the product. I do not think that is the case with the NBA. I think the NBA is just dealing with the drop in television ratings that everyone else is. And if they react to that by changing the product on the court, I think that's going to be a very bad long term. It's got a very bad long term impact

on the league. And that should not be the place from which they are coming. Guess who else kind of agrees with you, sounds like. So first off, to just put, I want to be to be clear what Adam today, Adam Silver said today to this question. He said, the answer is I'm not sure what we need to do. Promote your stars. The product's not broken. The product is good. Promote it. That's what you need to do. And by the way, if the NBA made a nice, I think a good holistic change overall last year, allowing teams to be more physical defensively and creating a product that isn't just, hey, you can do whatever you want on the perimeter and if you get blown on, it's a fat. Like, I think that has been an improvement mid-fort league across the board. I just don't see how it's a cookie-cutter league. The three best

players, I'll throw Luke in. That, but that's where the product, that's where he should have, to your point, defended the product, and he instead was responding to the echo chamber. Shea and Janus and Joker and a healthy Luca are uniquely awesome players that there's, like, those guys are all so different. How is this a cookie cutter league? The way teams generate threes, like, you don't just like snap your fingers and get a three. You have to generate the threes. You're discrediting the coaching and the skill development. The fact that the Celtics put five guys out there that can all shoot it in space and share the ball and have, you know, usually three guys who can get downhill and attack that space.

create. Like, it's not just a math equation. So the guy who agrees with you sounds like is Mike Shoshchewski, who by the way, has become, as in retirement from Duke, is now a special advisor to the NBA. And this is what Adam Silver said about this. He said, something I've learned, and this came directly from one of our advisors, Mike Shishovsky. He said to me, he said to me in our competition committee, be careful not to overreact. I mean, sometimes as adjustments happen, teams may swing a little too far and one direction, and then they may pull back. And then he cited that the Celtics recently have been pulling back in their threes, although I say the sample is kind of small on that. Maybe they will not. But Shoshavsky agrees

with you, McMahon. It sounds like Shoshchewski is like, let's not take away the corner three just yet. I love basketball growing up in the 80s and 90s. It was, was not a better product. We don't want to go back to the 90s where games are 86 to 82 played at a glacial pace and guys are spotting up at 16 feet. Seriously, go watch even like watch the Showtime Lakers. Go back and watch those games and you're going to be like, dude, space out, get out of the way. It is, the game is better. Get out of the way. Yes, but that's why, That's why, for as much as I enjoyed your impassioned argument, just outside of the bizarre foot divergence. Yeah, the toe thing is potentially going to get lit up in the comments.

I don't read the comments. Big raise jump shots are the toes of basketball. I understand that, but that's not. There's some pretty ones, but those are the exceptions. How often is he looking at toes, Bontas? I don't want to know. I don't know. How often you get on the airport and some guys wearing flip flops?

You're like, damn, dude, like those toes ain't meant. Those toes ain't meant for public consumption. I was in New York City for the Rex Ryan thing. I don't want to even get into any part of this. All I'm saying is if you look at what he's talking about, it's not, this is not about mid-range jumpers. It's the league reacting to the drop in viewership and somewhere between having concerned panic about the main driver of all of its business, which is the now soon to be much larger television deal, potentially being impacted in the future. And what was that television deal? Well, listen, it just got much bigger. I'm on your side here. I agree with you completely. I think that the league should be just very focused on pushing its next generation players,

which, by the way, let's go back to what we're talking about here, right? Why was this a week in Paris with Victor Wembegna? Because the NBA. Awesome. Well, yes, he's awesome. But also, LeBron James, who sometime in the next little while here, is likely going to be voted to starter in the All-Star game again. He is on the way out.

Steph Curry's on the way out. Kevin Durant's on the way out. So Victor Wimbunyama is sitting there as the guy who is probably going to be picked first to carry the mantle forward as the face of the league. So as Adam Silver saying, hey, we need to generate more revenue in Europe. Well, gee, we're going to bring our bright young European star rear for a week. We're going to plop them down and we're going to turn this into a one-man show for a week where it's just look how incredible this guy is.

That is what the league needs to be doing in America all the time. They need to fix the league pass situation. They need to focus on promoting the product. And the local TV situation. All of it. All of it. They need to fix all of that and they need to focus on promoting the product, not worrying about changing the court.

Basketball fans should not have to jump through hoops to watch basketball games. That's a ton bigger problem. But, dude, I watch basketball every single night. Either I'm at a game or I'm sitting on the couch with two TVs fired up. And I'm telling you, the league is a fun freaking league. Now, there's problems, but it's not the quality of play. It's certainly not the star level in this league. Shea Gilles Alexander, amazing, Joker, Janus, Annis, Ann Edwards.

We can go on down the list. Load management, that whole thing, and the league's trying to get its arms around that. I think it's made a little bit of progress. That's a problem. You know, if I buy a ticket, I need to have some confidence that the star that I'm going to see is actually going to be on the floor. Well, the 15,000 fans that bought tickets tonight saw the star. And before we move on, I just want to say this.

And there's, you know, recordings of me talking about how I feel like the three point is a little bit out of balance. And I stand by that. But I'm also going to stand by this. And this is, I've decided this is my mantra. the David Stern rule, which is bet on the beauty of the game. 100%. And I'm betting on the beauty.

And that's just, you know, I, that, Adam Silver needs to hear that and repeat that. That should have been his answer to that. The game is not broken. Analytics is a, people don't, it's a boogeyman for all analytics. By the way, analytics is not saying nobody should ever shoot mid-range shots. I'm telling you, the OKC analytics department is not talking to Shay. Shea, no, don't shoot, he's shooting 54% on those. Well, one thing that Adam did say tonight, and I don't want to read this whole answer,

but one concern that he voiced was he's talking to some players who have said, look, sometimes I've got a wide open shot, you know, at the rim or something. And, you know, I'm being taught that that's not the good shot. Then that's either bad interpretation of analytics, bad coaching, or a player who doesn't know what the hell he's being told. I mean, McMahon is strong on all this. I mean, seriously.

Have you talked to a coach that I want my players passing up dunks to kick it out for a three? No one's coaching that. That's not happening. There's some actions that imply that that's being coached. I mean, we don't see it every night, but we do see guys pass up open shots. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay. Your point has been made, McMahon, and that is that you are looking at a lot of

feet. There was a trade. I'm very selective about the feet that I look at and I'm right now is just over now. Jackson, help me out. Jackson's passed out. Jackson's on the floor. Brian, change the topic. Change the topic. We had a trade since we last podcast. We had a trade and that trade involves draft picks. And it was the most unique trade for a draft pick trade that I can remember, where the Phoenix Suns traded their 2031 pick unprotected for three picks with the Utah Jazz. And I actually want to point this out because I didn't completely understand what the jazz, exactly the jazz motivation here. The Jazz own the Cleveland Cavaliers picks in 25, 27, and 29. That is a product of Donovan Mitchell trade. They own the Minnesota Timberwolves picks in 25, 27, and 29 from the

Rudy Gobert trade. And they own the Los Angeles Lakers pick in 27, which I think is a product of the top four protected. Top four protected. And that was... That was the Russell and Wesley salary thing. Mike Conley. Mike Conley.

Of course, they didn't get Mike Conley in that trade. But anyway... Pre-agency, maybe. That was the, I would see, you could argue that was the DeAngelo Russell trade, if you're a Laker. Yes. Right, but the jazz got it,

given up Conley and eating Russell's... salary. The jazz also have their own picks in those years, 25, 27, 29. So they had a situation where they had these years where they had three or four picks and, you know, it's not ideal. And so by giving this three for one, they get a pick farther out. So they push some of those picks, at least, you know, they push it out a little bit. And they protected themselves because what they gave the, what they gave the sons was the worst pick of all. all those in each of those years, except in 27, where they didn't even include the Laker pick. They did include their pick in this year's draft.

Like, it's almost certainly going to be the Cavs pick that goes to the Sons. Right now, the Cavs have the best record by a game or so. And if it's not, if the Cavs aren't 20, aren't 30, they're probably going to be 29, maybe 28. But they did put the Minnesota pick and the Jazz pick in there. I think the Jazz pick is safe. But. Well, not by, maybe not by then. Let's see what happens.

No, we're saying this year. This year. No, this year. No, this year was just Minnesota and Cleveland. It was just those two picks. I think it was Utah as well. It doesn't matter. The pick this year is going to be the 29th or 30th pick in the draft.

Probably. It could have just been the Cleveland pick. Right. And so I think there was sort of a belief that, as they say in the financial media, they say this was deal heat. You know, this was an indication that there was another deal potentially for Jimmy Butler. like why would you do this trade, you know, break down the one pick for the other three if you didn't have another something else. And, you know, as far as I know, and I think Shams has reported the same thing. That's not true. There very much could be a deal. It's deal kindling, but they still got to build the logs on that thing. Good job. This is, that's much more rational than where you've been going. So they're just dipping their nose in the trademark.

God, this is the greatest. Just terrible. Bontems, this is a, you know, this is a trade like I've never seen before. What I would say is what I would compare it to, and I've said, is it, and I'm sure I'm not the only person to say this, but it's like taking a $20 bill and breaking it into two fives and a $10, and you got to, you know, you got to pay, you to tip the bellman $5, and you got to tip the guy at the airport $5, and you got to tip the cabbie $10. that's all fine. They're all lesser than to make up the whole. But my, my thing is, I don't think a $20 bill is getting them Jimmy Butler. I think they need a $50 bill or a $100 bill. I would argue this is like going to the bank and saying, hey, listen, I need $50. And they say, okay, we'll give you, 45 euros. And they'll say, all right, we'll give you two 20s and a 10. And several years from now, you're going to be. You're going to be 45 euros. And they'll say, all right, we'll give you two 20s and a 10. And several years from now, you're going to, you're going to. give us 100. And you say, okay, sure, I'll do it because I need the $50 right now. I got to have the $50. So I'll give you $100 down the road to take the 50 now. Now look, I'm not going to say there's no chance that they get a deal done because it's the NBA and we've seen weird things happen.

However, Justin Zanick, who we all know and is a very bright guy, went on the Jazz Thunder broadcast last night. GM of the Jazz just to be clear for listeners and talked about the trade. And Justin Zanick said, look, we had a pick, we had three picks that we gave away that could not be the best pick in the draft. And we got a pick back that can be the number one pick in the draft. And he went on to say, I think this is the most valuable asset in the market right now. I would agree with that. If you look at where the Phoenix Suns are at, it's not a guarantee that the pick is going to be the number one pick. It's not a guarantee it's going to be a lottery pick.

But if you look at where the Phoenix Suns are at where they don't own their pick for the next seven years and for the next six years, they are guaranteed to have a pick somewhere in probably the 20s in the draft. They do own their pick, but they don't control it. In other words, it can be swapped. They don't control their pick. I meant that they don't control their pick. They've torched their draft capital through 2031 now. Correct.

So perhaps they'll be a good team in 2031, but whether they are or not, it's a massive high upside swing. And by the way, every smart team in the league was going, hey, The Suns are really desperate to try to make a deal. This 2031 pick is sitting out there. We should go try to get that pick. Including the Oklahoma City Thunder. And this is kind of out of the Presti playbook.

It's not, you haven't pulled off this exact kind of a deal. But like Presti has done the, hey, we've got more picks than we can use right now. Let's push them back and sacrifice quantity for swings at high, high quality. And the Jazz still have 11 picks over the next side. Drafts with, by the way, a team that the roster is more than, more than half the roster right now is college age. They didn't need a third first round pick in this draft. It's much better for them to push it back. And again, this is a swing. I'm sure they're, I don't know this for a fact, but I will wager that their projections of the Sons in 2031 is that this will be a lottery type

of pick potentially. And I mean, Zanick said it, potentially an extremely high lottery. pick. Sure. It's a big, it's a big swing. It's a big swing. And for it, like you said, for a team that had a ton of stuff already. And again, this is a trade you make, if you're the Phoenix Suns. If you're way in the hole at the table and you're going back for more, right? Like, this is a team. I saw them last night. You know, they won handily against the nets, but even against the nets, like they were, they kind of wheezed their way to that game. They were up a little bit in the first half and then pulled away as the game went on. But they're, they're just, so behind the eight ball in so many ways with this roster. And by making this trade, it's a

clear admission that while we're going to the bank for the last thing we can possibly get, and then we're going to turn around to do whatever we can to try to improve the roster between now and the trade deadline in a couple of weeks. But fellas, I mean, you look at this team right now, and they've got the 29th pick in this year's draft now, probably your 30 from Phoenix or from Cleveland. They've got the nugget. second round pick, which ain't going to be very valuable. They got nothing else they could trade besides these three late picks. And they're sitting in 10th place as of right now in the West.

This is not like some team that's in the top six and locked into trying to get home court advantage. They're trying to stay in the top 10. Short in the Suns is a popular strategy. I mean, hey, the Rockets did it last summer and are very happy. The Rockets gave Brooklyn back a swap and a pick over these next couple of years to get a boatload all the KD. To get two picks and two swaps from the Sons.

Which, by the way, that was a very unusual. I mean, it was very, the strategy was very clear, but that was an unusual trade. And so what you're seeing here is people falling all over themselves, as you said, to short the Sons. There's a line to short the Sons. Yeah, and the Rockets, when they did that, they didn't imagine, well, maybe, I don't know.

I don't think they anticipated getting a lottery pick from Phoenix this year, but that's absolutely in the cards now. And the sons are desperately trying to make sure it doesn't happen. And they feel like they've got to move heaven and earth and convince Beal to accept a no trade clause and find a team willing to take them to make that happen and bring in 36-year-old Jimmy Butler. Well, listen, the other thing. Jimmy and Katie will both be in their 40s when this pick, you know, when this pick comes up for the jazz. It's just it's a desperation move.

Whatever way you want to look at it, it's clearly a desperation move by Phoenix. And when you look at the situation that the Sons are in right now, and you look at the situation the Milwaukee Bucks are in right now where they don't have control of their pick for years and years in a small market. And obviously they have Yonest Sita Kupo. They won a title. They're trying to win another one. But like Brian Nose, Cavs Corner, Stepion rule was created in the 1980s because Ted Stepion,

the owner of the Cavs, traded four first round picks in a row to the Dallas Mavericks. And the rule was created to prevent teams from not having control their pick for seven, eight years in a row, specifically because the NBA didn't want a situation where a team was stuck in no man's land and had nothing to do with their team for a long period of time. And now is how the swap became a popular thing. Exactly, because you had to find a way to fill the gap, right? Because you could only trade first every other year. Well, now you could trade your control your draft for seven years by doing the swaps.

You just basically nuke the Stepian rule. I would argue that if the NBA needs to examine something that's being maybe over cooked, it's not the three. It's the trading away of your draft capital. Yes. So now, like, again, let's go back to Phoenix. Phoenix has double swapped. I was going to say Phoenix says swapped. They're swaps. They're, you know, I mean, all their picks are gone. I mean, Matt Isfia owns a mortgage company. This is the 2007 mortgage crisis with credit default swaps in the NBA on steroids. And you got the rockets and you got the jazz just waiting for that bill to come do, among other team.

And look, I don't know if the league's going to change something on it or not, but like, Nets still have some of the stuff too, by the way. Like, they still have it. Yeah, they have some of it. And you look around the league and there's a handful of teams that have the vast majority of these picks. And then there's a whole bunch of teams that just don't have any. And it's made it more complicated to do business. And it's put some of these teams in a position where, you know, it's just sort of, we've seen this cycle where teams like the Nets and we'll see what happens with these other teams.

Oh, well, we'll trade all our picks and we'll burn the house down. and then we'll turn around and trade our stars later if we have to and get a bunch of picks back. That's what the Nets did. Yes, that's what I said. The Nets did that. But at some point, we're going to see one of these teams get in this position and they're going to get left holding the bag with like, oh, they get one first back or something. And then they're just going to be stuck in no man's life for years. We're also going to, so, you know, the catastrophe in the last 20 years is the Nets who traded everything and then ended up tanking because their owner gave up.

And they watched multiple top five picks go. Jason, and Brown, here's the foundation of a championship team. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, that's what,

that's the worst part is when you're, when you, when you're that. So I don't know. I got an idea here. What? They got to come up with an, an Isbia rule to get all this stuff

under control. You called the Ishby a rule. And then, since the league's trying to create all this revenue, well, they call it the Stepian rule after Stepion sold and he was out of the league. Can I have my idea?

The Isbiyah rule, and then you sell a sponsorship to it. The Isbiyah rule presented by Rocket Mortgage. Oh, my God. Hey, what would Dan Gilbert pay to be responsible? That was a very deep cut. What would people listen to the hoop collective? I bet at least. Yes, I know.

Analytically, I bet 76.8%. He's back on analytics. Oh, God. I would just say that I remember the first time I met Matt Isbio, who, by the way, I like. And he had done the Durant trade. And a few weeks later, I was in Phoenix and I went to a game and he was there. And I went to meet him. And I said to him, you know, it's amazing.

Like, you know, you could own this team for another 20, 25 years and not make a trade as big as you made your first, you know, six hours as the ownership. Owner. And he fundamentally rejected that premise. Well. He's like, no, we're going to make a lot of big trades. I'm going to make big trades all the time. And I was like, okay, you know, cool. And like, you know, to his credit, that is how he's.

operated. He's like, yeah, we've, you know. He has a chronic case of new owner syndrome. I really like him. And you know, there are people who love an owner like that. It could be a game under my guidelines, but he is quite a character. Well, he played college basketball and won a national championship.

Just so you know. He won a national championship as a member of a college basketball team. Yes, he did. He was on the roster. I didn't see you on that roster. Let's just think about it this way. He hasn't owned the team for two years. That's true. He hasn't owned the team for two full years. and they've made a lot of moves. Well, and maybe he's like,

we keep figuring out how to do these moves and we'll keep figuring it out. In 2031, we'll figure it out. Every year you can, you get access to another pitch. And the counterpoint to that would be, you haven't figured it out real well so far, buddy. Well, listen, but you know what?

We operate in the world where we analyze and talk strategy. That's the world we operate in. If we all were really good players, we would probably be talking about fundamentals of the jump shot were not really good players. I thought, that was on a T for McMahon. I thought he was going to say.

I was waiting for him to. I'm more of a little bit for him to shoot his mouth on. So I would just say that. I could definitely post a Bishbia. That's true. You could. I'll bet you could score on him. Although he probably would,

he probably believe he could shut you down. No, he's a flopper. He'd flop. I've seen him. He did it to doker. I forgot about that. That happened in the first couple of months too. Got Joker teed up.

Oh my God. That's not even the top 10. By the way, that's the last, that's the last playoff win for the Suns. I would just say. That is that, no,

that is a wild, that is a wild stat right there. Last year was a rough year for them in the playoffs. I would just say that there are, are a lot of fans, maybe not a preponderance of fans, but a lot of fans who love their guy going for it. No,

six of 29 fans on average love it. I mean, if you're a Utah jazz fan, Are you excited that you got the Sun's 30 2031 pick or would you rather have your team, you know, fighting all out to try to make the playoffs this year, which is what. Well, I mean, that's that's really not, that's really not the right way to frame it though. Because. Well, I agree that's not the way to frame it if you're owning a team.

Well, but even if you're a fan of the team, like it's like saying, it's like saying it was seven year old kid. Would you like to have ice cream for dinner every day for a week or not? The answer is, yeah, of course, that people would rather have the team be good right now. but that's not, it's just not a realistic way to look at this, even if you're a fan. The question should be, would you rather have your team be good and consistently good for a long time? Or would rather be good for two minutes? Because that's what we're talking about here.

Some people would say, as a fan of the newly crowned national champions in the college football playoff. Yes, they won a championship. And that's Ohio State getting their two minutes of fame here. Give me a break, dude. This is not a, this is not a, this is not a, this is not a, this is not a, this is not a, this is not commentary on Kevin Durant. It's just a statement of where the teams are at. The Nets traded everything they had nailed down to get Kyrie Irving, Kevin Durant, and James Hardin. They won one playoff series. The sons have done the same thing to get Kevin Durant and Devin Booker or Bradley Beale.

They've won one playoff series. They may not win another playoff game. Well, they haven't won anything with Beale. If you win the title, as you have always said, you never have to say you're sorry. The flag flies forever. Then it's great. But if you're going to go all in like this, you better win. because if you don't, you're going to be a lot of trouble. And by the way, because this is another favorite topic for McMahon, the All-Star starters in the East have been announced, and La Mello Ball is starting or not? He's not, and he shouldn't be.

He is not starting. Jalen Brunson. The only real drama was that Jalen Brunson would get the second guard spot. The Donovan Mitchell, and he did. He was left for Donald Mitchell, Jason Tatum, Yonzo, Carl Towns, and Jalen Brunson. Wendy, were you about to make a Zoblin? Zaza-Pachulia joke.

Well, that's why they split the vote up to give the media and, you know, Zaza Picholia almost got voted in as a starter one year. He's in Dallas. I just talked to Zaza the other day. Oh, how's he doing? He's doing great, man. He's got... Lamello is also averaging 30 points a game. I wouldn't quite put him in the Lamello.

I wouldn't quite put him in the Lamello, the Zaza Pachio category. But he's not going to make the all-star team. That's going to actually be very interesting. Well, I'm going to tell you, I'll tell you what. He didn't get the media or the media or the show. the or the player vote. Right. I'm doubting he's getting the coaches vote.

So I'm just... It is interesting because Jalen, I'll be curious to see what the final ballot is, because Jalen was fourth behind Damien Lillard in the last round of voting. And for that to be 50% of the vote and him to end up as a starter, it means he got a ton of player in media votes or he leapfrog game or both. Well,

did we read the five East voters yet or East starters yet? Okay. And again, I think these are the five guys who deserved it. The only question was whether it would be Jalen or... Jaylen Damer Lamello as the other guard. The other, the West will be out in a minute after, I believe by the time we're talking about the Bulls and Mazz, we'll know.

Well, I want to talk about the Mazz because they got dealt with another blow to this season. They had such an incredible run in the last season. And this season is had just from Luca getting dinged up in training camp onward, McMahon. It's just not going their way. The latest being Derek Lively with a fracture in his ankle, two to three months, And the guy is a vitally important player for that. I mean, he's their third most important player, no question. This one's a big time kick.

You know, Luca's hoping to get back before the All-Star break. We'll see about that. And they've taken on a ton of water since Luca went out, going back to Christmas when he was hurt. They've lost 11 to 15 now. You know, the schedule is not very forgiving over these next few weeks. Like, it's, you know, they've fallen into the bottom half of the, of the playing picture in the Western Conference.

And it's tough. You know, the one like thing I will point out, and obviously this was a team last year that made two major trades picking up Daniel Gafford, picking up PJ Washington. So that was part of them turning their season around. But even after the trade deadline, you know, it gets forgotten about. But, you know, this team lost. I'm finding right here. In late February, early March, this team lost five out of six games and was, you know, did not look anything like a contender.

Boom, flipped the switch. And that's when they went on that 16 and two run and everything came together. Lively, though, missed time during that run. You know, he had a sprained knee towards the end of last year, missed the last two or three weeks of the regular season, was able to come back for the playoffs and play a major role. So I guess the point is, last year wasn't like it was smooth sailing for them, you know, before the final quarter of the season. That's true. That's true. You know, and this is rockier. Don't get me wrong.

It's, I don't know if you're Nico Harrison, who's always made a significant trade before the trade deadline, three years, three times, or three years, four trades, really. I don't, I don't think you can react to your medical situation because then you're, you're, you're, you're, you're probably putting yourself in position, you're going to end up playing whack-a-mole, creating one massive void to fill one that might be more temporary. But, you know, again, they're taking on water and the schedule just gets tougher and it's not like, I don't think it's reasonable to think Luke is just going to come back to the rescue.

And they've got to be careful, making sure he's in decent condition. They're not putting too much on because the last thing you want is for him to come back and for him to re-agravate that calf injury that he, that he's had four times and four years now. Well, I had two questions for you, McVan, about the Mazz. One was, to your point, let's set aside, I obviously agree with you that they shouldn't react to the injury stuff. If they are going to be aggressive like they have been under Nico Harrison typically,

what do you think makes sense for them to try to do in terms of changing the roster, like positionally? And I've also noticed of late that it seems like they've gone away from Clay at the end of games on more than one occasion, which we've obviously talked about going back to the summer. Is that sort of a gradual shift toward that happening on a regular basis now that we're after the year? Clay closing is a game by game kind of a situation now. And obviously everybody wants Clay back or wants Luca back.

Clay, by the way, is out himself right now with an ankle. They're playing in Oklahoma City tonight. Second end of the back-to-back, he'll have missed both games. But Clay really needs Luca back because his numbers are much better with Luke on a floor. which makes sense. Like he's a guy who needs, looks created for him. And Lucas is good at creating open threes for teammates

as probably anybody in the league. It's no secret. Like they've been calling around and kind of exploring a way to get that primary defender type of guy. They've put that on PJ Washington this year. And it's probably asking too much. You know,

I think Najee Marshall's been good for them, but they've missed having Derek Jones is a guy who one through three, really, I would say more so than one through four, but one through three, like Derek Jones Jr., would take the toughest assignment and would, you know, just compete there. They miss having that on-ball defense presence. So I think if the Mavericks do something in the trade market, that's the most likely scenario.

And, you know, we'll see if there's something out there that makes sense for them. There's a lot of time left in this season is what I would say about the Mavericks. And, you know, if you don't have the number one seed, which you're not. getting anyway, you're going to have to do some something on the road anyway. They were on the road to start every single series last year. That's true. Certainly not ideal. You know, they were playing well before Luke went down and, you know, they've had a lot of

misfortune since then. And, you know, again, I don't think there's going to, like this is going to be a sudden turnaround starting right now. And I mean, there's, I would say it's, it's, it's. pretty likely they're going to have to fight their way and view the play in. Well, listen, the other thing, the other thing you're looking at, if you are a team like Dallas, right, we just talked about how the sons are all over the place. We'll see what happens with them over the next couple weeks.

Seth Curry and Shea are starting in the back court. Seth Curry and the Warriors are in a lot of trouble. They just lost last night in Sacramento. We'll see what happens in their game tonight against the Bulls. The Bulls are coming in rested. They're playing the second night of the back to back. They're in free fall. Big time.

Listen, Steve Kerr played Gis Santos and Quintos. Quentin Post down the stretch. Quentin Post, if you haven't heard from it's of them, it's fair. He got drafted late in the second round this year. And Steve talked openly about the fact that they just need more spacing on the court for Steph. And if you watch, I watched the final few minutes of that game, the Kings essentially just double team Steph the second he got to half court, made him pass the ball. And the Warriors had no answer for that. So if you're the Mavericks and you're looking at this, you're saying, all right, gold state's in trouble, Phoenix is in trouble. yes, we're banged up, but if we could just tread water,

it's not like they, I don't think they're in a ton of danger of falling out of the 10. And as long as they're in the 10, obviously you want to be higher. But if they are healthy, come playoff time, as you said, McMahon, they're not going to be afraid of going on the road to play a playoff series. They did just fine doing it last year. No, and listen, Thunder Mavs, I think, is going to be a really good rivalry over time, started last year. I'm not saying anybody's scared of it.

anybody on either side. I'm just saying if you're the Thunder and you win 70 games, you have the Mavs as the eight seed is your reward. That's probably not the one that they would draw if they had a choice. I'll put it like that. No, no for sure. And just to fill out the rest of the West starters, no surprise. Staff Shea, Yolkich, Durant, and LeBron James in the Allster game for the 21st time in his career. Yeah, those were very strongly the voters' choices, the fan vote. By the the way, the starter thing, I'm not even going to, I think I'm going to pass a rule here that we're not going to talk about the All-Star game. Like, even while it's going on, we may talk about the- Probably on a tropical island. God, it'll be great for you. Because there's really, there's going to be

15, it's actually going to be 20 starters because there's going to be a bunch of rookie slash sophomores. There's going to be 15 starters because there's going to be three different teams made up of these guys. Ships versus skin. The interesting thing about today was, as you said, this was the best chance for Lamello Ball to make the team. We'll see if he does make it as a reserve, but he had a better chance of making it with the fan vote, him leading the fan vote than he did with the coaches getting him in probably. Because frankly, like we talked about, we did the roster a couple weeks ago, the strength in the east is in the back court, and there's a ton of options to choose from in the back court that are going to make it challenging for him to get in. Jackson wants you to take photos of your favorite feet from the beach when you're. on the island.

Oh, my God. We're going to have a whole new crew of people watching. Oh, God. What are you doing? Oh, my God. We're going to have a whole new crew of people watching on YouTube now. You know, McMahon. And I have bad toes.

Oh, God. There was, McMahon just showed me. My right big toes are, it's in touch. This is truly off the rail. And, you know, they would tell. you, you know, never show, never give your feet away for free. Okay. Thank you to Jackson. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you to Bon Temps who just painted his, his, his podcast room there and got back in despite the fumes. Yes. Yes. I'd like to say thank, you know, McMahon had great takes in this pod,

but I'm not sure I should thank him. No, you should not. I will thank him. Thank you, McMahon. Thank you for watching, listening to the Hoop Collective. We'll be talking to you next week. How did you say that French thing again? Bonsois. No, no, no, the Adios Amigos version. Ovoa, mon ami. Ovoa, mona, me, and adios amigos. Oh, God.