Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - What Are The Goals For Every NBA Team This Season?

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the All-In tiers list for the upcoming season breaking down the goals for every team in the NBA. The guys talk who should be going for a title, who should be lottery bound and who needs to find a direction. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Wednesday afternoon. I'll turn our schedule up a little bit this week because we've got some stuff going on.

Joining me from San Jose, California, Timbontemps. Hello, everybody. And joining me from Dallas, Texas. Home on the range is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners? Nobody loves tears more than Timbontemps. And he loves to roll out tears in the summer. And I'm having fun with him, but actually he has a very good story with Kevin Pelton that published today.

This was a Wednesday. Notice that actually, McMahon? Huh? So did you notice that actually threw in there? Yeah, Bob. I would replace him surprisingly. Also, I bet that Kevin Peltin clearly carried you on this one. But go on, Wendy.

Yeah. Anyway, I actually like this concept, and I think it's a good thing to look at at this point in the calendar. the NBA all-in tiers. In other words, how all-in are some of these teams? And considering that we have seen multiple teams cut guys with $100 million on their salaries, multiple teams trade complete control of their drafts for the foreseeable future away. Some both. So just so people are clear on what exactly the parameters of the story were.

It's not necessarily all. It's the idea was to break teams into groupings of what what version of all in they are. What are you all in on? That's right. That's the, that is the, that's the conceived of the story. What are you all in on? There's a different, you know, not every team, not every team goes into the season thinking they're going to win the title. So what is basically the objective.

Right. It's not hard to figure out what the Utah Jazz are all in on, for example. It's not on winning the West. it's on well it's on winning something else okay so I like this story as much as I tease bontemps I don't tease pelton I have too much respect for him but he's just not as fun to push around either yeah he's you know you prep well I'm not even to go what's nice sir guy he's a robot bond tints is really irritable you can get get under his skin pretty easy well the thing is like you know bontemps is like six five you can't stuff him into a locker Pelt

and, you know. I can't. Metaphorically. Listen, Bonn's has won fights. I've seen it. There's a YouTube out there. That is true.

That is true. All right. Let's start with the first tier, which is all in on winning a championship before their window closes. Tim, take it away. Yeah. We had three teams in this tier,

Denver, Milwaukee, and Minnesota. And interestingly, two of those is like, hey, you've got perennial MVP candidates that are midway through their prime, obviously, Joker, Yonis. Whereas, as you point out in here, the Bucks, I guess Ant is ascending towards MVP candidate status, hasn't quite gotten there yet. But, you know, an ascending superstar who's not even hit his prime yet. So it's interesting that the Timberwolves are in that same tier, despite the fact, the face of their franchise is at a very different stage of his career. Some of these teams are a little hard to fit into a clean grouping together.

Brian does not like too many tears, didn't really want to get into trying to have 30 different tiers. He would if he could, though. Oh, he would. For example, I would say, you know, while I understand what Milwaukee did this summer, I don't think many people would truly say the Bucks are a championship contending team with their current roster. But again, if you're trying to look at it through the prism of trying to get this done before the window closes, obviously the Bucks have been on a timer for a while now, which is why they made what I think we'd all agree was a fairly desperate maneuver to waive and stretch Damien Lillard in a record amount of money to go sign Miles Turner as a free agent.

as it relates to Minnesota, the reason why we ended up having them in this tier and why I pushed to have them in it is this team is still very reliant on Rudy Gobert and to a lesser extent, Mike Conley, and those guys are in their mid to late 30s, and there's not clear replacements for them. Despite the fact that they drafted Rob Dillingham a year ago, I'm not convinced Rob Dillingham is the long-term answer to replace Mike Connolly. And despite the fact they paid Nas Reid $125 million this summer, I'm not convinced Nas Reid is a long-term replacement for Rudy at center either. Well, I'm not convinced of that. I think that if there's a long-term replacement at center on the roster, then it's the guy they just drafted the fellow Frenchman, Johann Bergerge. But he's, you know, he's a springy seven-foot ball of clay at this point. Yeah, I mean, he certainly showed a lot of potential. I mean, he had the seven-block game at Summer League against the Pelicans, but, you know, I think we're a little ways away from being able to reliably say he's

got a chance to be that kind of player going forward. The window is very defined for Denver. It's as long as Joker is one of the best players in the world, assuming that his future is in Denver, which I think is still a pretty solid bet. The window is very defined for the Bucks. That's as long as Yannis is one of the best players in the world and on their roster, which is much murkier. The window's not so well defined for the wolves just because Ant has so much runway in front of them but you know

can they kind of your point here how much more time do they have left with this supporting cast and then can they kind of recreate or reconstruct a supporting cast while Ant is you know

still ascending can I pull off onto a buck's conversation here real quick yes Miles Turner's contract four years, 104 million, was it? 107.

Actually, I think the Let me get to the Bobby Marks Mobile. I think the final numbers actually came in a little bit even higher than was originally. Yeah, I think it might be 112. Let me just a quick math while you're talking, Brian. Okay, so I'd like to apply our strategy. Can that contract be traded?

Yeah, I've, believe so. Okay, McMahon. Again, every contract can be traded. Can they flip that for value? I think that's probably going to be a little bit more difficult. 108.8 million over four years. I would say Miles Turner, as we saw last year in the playoffs, although he struggled in the finals, has a skill set as a three-point shooting big who can protect the rim that is desired around the league. And I think that, they could, if they decide to, like, let's say Janus, a year or two from now says, I've had my fun in Milwaukee. I'm ready to go. As long as Miles Turner is healthy, I think they could foot that deal and get some value back for it for a team that's trying to win right now and want somebody with that skill set. Like, for example, he'd be a nice fit on the Lakers right now. He would be a nice fit on the Warriors right now.

he would be a nice fit on, I mean, he could, I mean, again, we were just talking to wolves. I mean, sure, Phoenix, Phoenix is having to trade. But like long term, he could be a potential long term answer to replace Rudy Gobert in Minnesota if they're trying to do something with that in a year or two, right? Like, he has a skill set that should age decently and that's not a, it's an, it's an in market or it's a within the realms of the market contract. Here's why I'm asking about that right now. Bontz, you and I were live on national television when we found out about Dave Miller's wave and stretch to sign Miles Turner. Backs.

And I, in the moment, literally in the moment, I said it's like mortgaging your mortgage to buy a sports car. I still don't like it. But as I've talked to people across the league and thought more about it, while I don't necessarily think it's the primary reason, I think that maneuver was an elaborate hedge on what Janus wants to do. And here's why I'm saying that with a month of reflection and talking to people in the league.

Yes, ideally what you want is Janus to return, be fully bought in in the season, have a guy who fits alongside him that can stretch the floor and protect the rim. That's a lot of value. And however you structure your team, whether you have Janus playing point forward or point center or whatever. And it's you sending a message to Janus that we scrape the bottom of the barrel.

You know, John Horst, he gave an interview to the athletic Eric name. And I think what he said was, have we done enough to keep Janus? I don't know. Have we done everything that we possibly could do? Yes, we did more than anyone else could ever have done that. which to me was an indication that, number one, he didn't necessarily have Janus sitting next to them when they did it, even if Janus endorsed the move.

It wasn't like something that they were doing alongside them. It certainly wasn't like Luca calling Marcus Smart up multiple times. Two, John Horst wants it on the record that they did everything that they possibly could do. I mean, that's already kind of inherent. So why? Why does he want them to know that? Well, I think because the Bucks can try to do their best here with Miles Turner and having waived Dame Willard. But the other thing that is important here is that you can't wave and stretch somebody after, what's the date, Bontemps, August 31st?

Yeah, the end of August. So if at some point in the next year you trade Janus and you start a rebuild, you can't really start a rebuild with Dame Lillard on your roster. Yeah. Because he has no trade value at the torn Achilles tendon owed $100 million. And you can't wave and stretch him in January. So you wave and stretch him now, and then you use that money to acquire an asset that you can either play or you can, if you have to, trade. And you do that so that if you have to go a rebuild route, it's the off-ramed. is exists in a way that wouldn't exist otherwise. And you send the message that we did everything

we possibly could so that if so that the ball is in Janus's court. Yeah, I wouldn't say you you can't start a rebuild with Dame on the roster. I mean, you would just go about it in a different way. He would then be a giant expiring contract you could then use to, you know, maneuver things around for people. Then you're in the tax. Remember, they get out of the tax with this maneuver two. I understand that. Though I think they might have been, they were probably going to duck the tax anyway after not resigning Brooke Lopez. But yeah, look, I understand, like having Miles Turner is both a way to show Janus that you're still trying to win. And he is a guy that if they do move on from Janus in the next year or two, there's a lot of teams he would fit on.

I was just glancing through the standings and you could probably come up with 10 different teams pretty quick that Miles Turner would be a decent fit on. And it's a reasonable contract. It's not out of bounds with what the market was going to be for them. So I do think that the bucks could walk away with an extra asset or two. They are going to have dead money on their books for a long time. But like we've talked about before, they're not Phoenix, which is a place that freights are in theory going to want to go. cap space is not as much of a thing in Milwaukee. And if they move on from Janus,

they're going to be in a pretty lengthy rebuild anyway. Well, and they're going to be in a rough spot to rebuild because as they've continued to try to put a contender around Janus, they've obviously given up a lot of their picks. And so like the Damien Lillard deal, which, hey, I liked it at a time. I like them taking that swing. The results stunk. It is what it is.

There was some misfortune on that, but the simple fact is, they owe a ton of money to Dame for now years to come, and they still owe picks for Dame. And that's a really, really rough spot to be in a potential rebuild. But this is what you do when you have this kind of a talent that is, you know, the Bucks haven't had this kind of a talent since Kareem. And no matter what happens, whether Yannis spends his whole career in Milwaukee, or whether he asks out tomorrow, the Yonis Air in Milwaukee has been a massive,

success. To bring a championship to Milwaukee, to have this kind of run with a, you know, with a multi-time MVP has been a massive success. But the post-Yonis stretch in Milwaukee is going to be painful. There's just no way around that. And you can call this a hedge against it. But it's, it's not going to be a smooth transition, whether, you know, they have, whether it's Janus retiring down the road or whether it's, you know, the, you know, in the near future. Well, I'll never forget when I, as I get older, I keep getting these sayings. If you think I'm getting too heavy on these sayings, tough.

But I once had this arborist come to my house. It's one of the things you have when you're a homeowner. You have to have arborists come. And I was talking to them about planting a tree. Oh, no, you don't. No, you don't. You don't have to do that, buddy. You don't have to.

Sometimes you do. Some people have arborists. come to their house. Well, when you live in a neighborhood where if trees fall on your power lines in your house or sometimes have to have arbors, anyway, this arborist provided me with an important saying. And I say, he says, people often ask me when the best time to plant a tree is. And the answer is last year. And so this is what I say. I say, when's the best time to begin a rebuild in the NBA last year? Or I hear what you're saying. Or the worst time.

Like if you have Yonis, Milwaukee, you'll run that out for as long as you can. No, I agree. But when, independent of Yonis, when it comes time for a rebuild, you know, the first part is the hardest part. So if you can hedge, then hedge. Yeah. The Oklahoma City Thunder are the only team that I can think of that was able to have a head start on a rebuild. Yeah. I just think we're being a little charitable saying it's.

a hedge when they have $112 million in dead money on their books. Well, as they're trying to figure out whether they should do that deal, that maneuver, you had to think about all angles of it. It wasn't something done flippantly. Okay. Of course. I do think that on this list that we have, we've just scratched a surface on here, the Timberwolves being in this, you know, putting championship window closing in the

putting the Timberwolves is one of the more interesting things you've done on this list. And you know you explain why, because they've got core players who, old and they've mortgaged their draft. And the biggest question there is the point guard of the future. And I agree with bomb temps. I don't know that it's Rob Dillingham. I made a huge bet. Tim kind of made a huge bet on Rob Dillingham to be the long-term backcourt mate with Anthony Edwards.

I think Rob Dillingham is a lot more Lou Williams than Chris Paul. And Lou Williams had a great NBA career, quality player. But my point is I think he's an undersized bench bucket getter. and not a runner team point card. Well, the San Antonio Spurs, which is who they made that deal with for Dillingham, their picks have been used on three point guards in the last two drafts and three guards.

And Dillingham is not like the other two. So that's, you know, that's, if you had one of those two guys, Dylan Harper, Stephan Castle, you would maybe feel a little differently. Okay. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. The next tier on the all-in list here,

teams that want are focused on being all in on having an extended window. So the opposite of getting near the end, teams that are trying to make sure their window stays open for the longest time. The defending general think I'm making a shock here. That's what the defending champs are doing with the Thunder. But who else is on this list, Bontems? Yeah, the Thunder obviously are the epitome of that, as are the team that's, I think, their biggest challenger in the West this year, potentially, the Houston Rockets, even though they just traded for Kevin Durant.

They have a team built around young guys with a bunch of, of draft picks that can extend that window out into the future. And then it's the three teams that should be sitting atop the Eastern Conference this year, the Cavs, Cavs Corner, the New York Knicks and the Orlando Magic, all of whom have all of their core players under contract for multiple years, all of whom have cores that are somewhere in their mid to late 20s, that should have some extended window together. And frankly, also benefit from the fact that they're in the Eastern Conference. And there's just a cavernous vacuum at the top, particularly with Jason Tatum and Tyrese Halliburton, sideline with injuries with their torn Achilles for this season. And that

inherently gives you a lot more wiggle room to have an extended window than in the very brutally difficult Western Conference. Yeah. So I was talking to an executive the other day and he was saying to me, he goes, what are the great rivalries in the game today? And, you know, I'm, like, boy, is this an August question, you know, and they come up with some. And he's like, well, I know what the next great rivalry in the NBA is. And I go, what? I'll bite what? He goes, the thunder versus the CBA, you know, because the way that they maneuver to keep this, what do you say, Bontas?

I don't even think that's true. I was going to say, I like Presti's odds on that. I'm going on. They're not even going to be in the repeater tax, so the new CBA comes online. in 2030. So, you know, I, you're declaring it already over. I just think they're, I mean, look, they're not in the tax. They weren't in the tax last year when they won.

They're not in the tax this year when they could win again. And they have a ton of flex. Yes, they have the three guys on, you know, Shigis, Alexander, Janele Williams, Jed Holngren on max contracts going forward. However, they have draft picks out the wazoo to have young, cheap talent around them. They have great contracts on their books otherwise. and they have flexibility on their higher-priced veterans, namely Lou Dort and Isaiah Hartinstein,

to maneuver their books around that way. So I don't, I think they're better set up than any other team, frankly, to deal with the CBA because they have all this young talent already. Which is why it's a rivalry. I mean, I think it's more for the Cavs and the Knicks and the Magic and these other teams. Right, but none of those teams are the champs.

Well, but I agree with Bon Tim's in the sense of Presti, in the Thunder are going to have some difficult decisions to make but those decisions are going to be you know four, fifth, six spots on the roster, not one, two, and three. And

you know, we'll see how things work out long term in terms of like, hey, is there another deal to work out with Lou Door with Hartnstein when those come around? But they have so many picks to be able to you know, backload there.

Like the guy they just drafted from Georgetown. There's a potential Isaiah Hardinstein replacement. We'll see if it comes to that. I'm a former. Center from Georgetown. Yeah. We'll see if it comes to that like Case of Wallace.

And some of the decisions might end up being on on guys that they hit on in the draft. Like, hey, if Case of Wallace keeps the trajectory that is on right now, he's going to be a position for a pretty good payday. But again, they've got

an MVP who's just hit in his prime, an all-N-B-A player who's a couple of years away from touching his prime, and Holgren, a lot of people might value even more than Jaylon Williams, who also hasn't touched his prime. And those guys are locked up long-term with a ton of flexibility around him. I have pressed his odds against the CBA. All these teams that you have listed here at Bont-Thames, only one of them is in the second apron now. And that's the Cavs. Right. The team that I am fascinated at,

about going forward, and I'm not sure how big their window actually is, is Orlando. The Orlando Magic are insanely expensive already. They are below the first apron this year. However, with just looks like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 players under contract next year, they're already, according to Bobby's numbers, over $6 million over the second apron. Now, when they fill out their roster, you're talking about a team that does not pay the tax that often. Could be $40 million over the tax. Could be $45 million over the tax.

Could be $50 million over the tax. I don't think that's a very long-term viable strategy in Orlando. And that is, when you talk about teams going up against the CBA, that's an example of a team that They just went all in on Desmond Bain. We talked about the trade at the time. I love the fit of Desmond Bain in Orlando. Let's see if Franz Wagner and Paulo Bancaro can take steps forward shooting-wise. Let's see if Jalen Suggs can stay healthy.

But that core four, if they're on the court, could be right up there with Cleveland and right up there with the Knicks in the East for sure. But is that ownership group going to spend 40, 50 million over the tax for a four-year window? I'm not sure about that. Well, it's also about the quality of the players. Like, we, again, our big sub-examination. at least my big summer promise going forward here is I'm going to be talking I'm going to try to talk more about percentage of the cap as opposed to the actual number. So when you look at percentage of the cap, yeah, they're in decent shape today. But between Franz Wagner, Desmond Bain, and Jalen Suggs, they're making over 70% of the cap for those three players. And then you have to mention the guy who's going to be making the most money. Right. But well, his money isn't on the books yet. But, yeah, obviously next year, Palo, I know exactly, we'll make 25%.

Well, actually, I guess he could make higher depending on whether he gets all-N-B-A supermax. But, you know, how many all-star appearances, you know, between Wagner, Bain, and Suggs, do they have two? You know, I think Franz made one all-star team? Did Bain make one all-star team? They have zero. I don't know what I was going to say. Didn't Franz make the all-star team? No, they have zero.

those guys have zero. Okay. And so let me ask you this. In five years, how many they're going to have? Well, they've got a lot better chance. They get a lot better chance in the East. Fair enough. But my point is.

Yeah, but yeah, there may be all. That's 70% of your of your cap, those three guys. Now, Palo, that's a guy who is, you know, presenting as a guy who could be a multi-time All-Star. But you got 70% of your of your cap tied up in three guys who are good players. Don't get me wrong. But do you? is that, you know, let's look at the 70% of the cap that the, the, the, the thunder have.

I mean, I granted, that's a high, that's a high bar, but, but that's, that, that's the bar if you're going to be a second apron team. Yeah, and I, and I had the numbers a little bit backwards. There, there are a couple million below the second apron. I was looking at the two lines wrong on the sheet, but there's still a team that's going to be on pace to be 30 million over the tax next year. And again, how long are they going to be willing to spend that kind of money to have four big kinds of contracts on the books. And Jalen Suggs does on a descending deal. I think that's going to looking pretty good. But, you know, that, that I think is where you're going to see a lot of

questions with whether it's the Cavs or the Magic or even the Knicks. Like these teams are consistently in the tax, bump it up against the second apron, whether they get into it or not. The one thing that we haven't really touched on much in the CBA is that the repeater tax penalties are a lot stronger now than they used to be. And for all to talk about taking away tools from teams. It's a hell of a lot more expensive for teams to be way over the tax now, especially if they get to the repeater than it used to be. And that, I think, more than anything, is going to cause teams to have to retrench on spending. So. And that's one of the reasons you're going to have the the Boston Celtics who just made a move in this week to offload, friend of the pod, George Nying's salary.

The Celtics are really focused on getting under the tax. Yes, they don't want to outlay the money, but if they're going to have this gap year, it's so important for them to help reset the repeater march. Right. They're already a repeater tax team. Right. It's so, it's difficult.

And so, by the way, just to compare the Cavs, who are a second apron team, if you look at Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland, all of them, their contracts are all in the books. That's about 85% of the tax.

I'm sorry, of the cap. Yeah. So, you know, like Donovan Mitchell's a first team all in, player, Evan Moby's defensive player of the year, second team all NBA player, Garland's multi-time all-star. I'm not saying that that's, you know, Wade LeBron Bosch, but, you know, if you know, the magic are trying to beat them. You know, that's a team they're trying to beat. And so as you, as you calculate going forward, I mean, and health plays a role,

you can't always predict that. But anyway, well, the magic made a big, big bet on Desmond Bain, both in what they gave up, the picks package, including, you know, or highlighted by the son's pick in next year's draft and financially, and they need that bet to pay major dividends or there's going to be a lot of uncertainty. I do want to hit real quick, though, on the rockets in that, because the rockets to me are a fascinating, they're in a fascinating, they've created a fascinating situation. But I agree, they've got, I think there's well positioned to have a long run as any franchise other than Oklahoma City, despite the fact that they just went all in. They didn't go all in.

They just made a trade to get Kevin Durant, who what's he going to? Year 18, year 17, 18. By the way, it's August 6th as we're recording this, and Kevin Durant does not have a contract extension. So that's where I was headed. They did not go all in on the trade. They made a trade at a price that they were okay with that did not. sacrifice the long term.

You know, Jaylon Green was a second round pick that didn't really pan out. You know, we talked when they made the trade. If you're ranking, if you're ranking the young players on the roster by future value, by long-term value, he might have been fifth or six on that list. And then, you know, they didn't really have like an immediate spot for the 10th overall pick in this year's draft. Hell, they couldn't squeeze the third overall pick in last year's draft into the rotation. The rockets aren't going to go all in by all appearances and by what I've heard.

They're not going all in on an extension for Kevin Duran. Now, it doesn't mean it won't happen. But there have been rumblings of, hey, KD doesn't, you know, he's not going to push for the full max. I don't know that the rockets are going to put anything on the table that's close to the max. I think the rockets are like it's not ideal, but I don't think they would panic. if they go into the season with Kevin Durant just on the contract that he's on, just on the expiring deal. Well, this is one of the things I talked about when Durant was on the market,

about whether a team looked at Durant would be comfortable with him on an expiring contract or felt that they needed to give him a two-year $110 to $120 million extension, and that that was going to affect what teams would pay for them. and as you said the the you know and i'll say this rafel stone since he's been the gm of the of the of the rockets he signed quite a few giant contracts but a lot most of them have been short like jalen green's contract was shorter and you know fred van bleat short has signed two short contracts. Even this contract they signed with Doreen Phine Smith, 22 years guaranteed. Shingoon was well south of Max. Well, and the two long contracts he's given out, which are

Alperin Shingun and Jabari Smith Jr., were both contracts that now we'll see everybody's health goes and everything, were two contracts that the league viewed as good value contracts. Yeah. Yeah. Raffel Stone has done an outstanding job, and the Rockets as a whole, have done an outstanding job of understanding the new economic environment the league is in. And we've talked about it a lot. Teams have to be much better about negotiating every dollar on deals. And you look at what the rockets have done. They have done a great job. Frankly, the only deal that wasn't like that was the Jalen Green deal, which they got to get out of jail free card on the Kevin Durant trade. But all these other trades that they've done, or all these other deals that they've done, you know, you keep talking about

percentage of the cap, Brian. A parent shangoon is 18 percent of the cap. He just made it all start. team last year. Fred Van Vlee, 16% of the cap. Jabari Smith Jr., his contract starts out, his extension under 15% of the cap and goes down from there every year. So those are all good, solid, long-term contracts. And as McMahon said, when you have all these young players and you're trying to have this depth going forward, which is we've seen over the past couple of years, deeper teams are probably going to have more success with where the league is headed. You have to mind your peas and cues when it comes to these contracts and not be giving out. extra money on deals where you wind up in the second apron sooner. And you have all these difficult

financial questions facing you sooner. And it's why these Kevin Durant negotiations are very interesting and I'm very curious to see where they land as whether A, he gets an extension done at all. And B, if he does get an extension done, what the number is. Because if you look at what the rocket's history is, history would tell you it's not going to be two years for the max number. It's going to be something a decent way south of that. Also, actions over words. Watch the way the Rockets have handled their business this summer. They have handled their business this summer to maximize cap space in 2007. So you look at Fred Van Vleet's contract.

He has a player option, but he's up in 27. Now, maybe he does another deal in a year from now and they reevaluate, but he is off the books in 27. Dorian Finney Smith, non-guaranteed in 27. Bontems, you mentioned Jabari Smith, Jr., contract dips in 27 then goes back up in 28 dips down i think they did the same thing with stephen adams contract starts at a certain number dips down in 27 his contract is descending right from the beginning let's see what happens with tar yisen whether they get a deal done with him but

i'm looking at this and i'm i'll make a wager right now that it wouldn't surprise me if a deal tarry Jason signs, dips in 27. And the reason I say that, the reason I say that, sorry. No, it's okay. Durant, if he does an extension, you know, he can sign for two years, but that second year would be 27, 28. The rocket's actions indicate they're protecting space in 27. I don't know.

They've got to have their reason why, and maybe it's a hedge on something else and it won't matter in a year. But keep that in mind as you think about what they're going to do with Durant. If they've done four or five contracts that prioritize dipping their space and creating maneuverability in 27, I don't think you should assume that Durant's going to have a giant number in 27, 28 on the table. The only thing to add there, though, is that all that is true. There's a certain guy who's going to be coming online with a new contract in the summer where in 2027. I'm Ann Thompson.

And I'm in Thompson, who I suspect if he's not making the max, I suspect he's going to be awfully close to the max, and that is going to eat a heavy chunk into any potential space that Houston will have from a contractual standpoint that summer. But yes, the Rockets have done a remarkable job of showing fiscal discipline and restraint all the way through. And I think if they can continue to do that, they're going to have a real advantage over the competition because we've seen other teams not do that. And I think it's going to bite them later. And if you do that like Houston has and like Oklahoma City has to some extent too with the way they have their books set up, it's going to really pay off for you down the road in terms of managing your money in this new environment we're in.

Yeah, fiscal discipline and an asset discipline as well. They're still loaded. Yeah. And like look, a big trade could come to the four in the next six to nine months. and they could go all in on that trade and their maneuverability for 27 could be moot because they may have another player on that books but they certainly at least before that would happen

have made these decisions this way. All right, the next tier all in on building around young cores, Bontemps. Yeah, five teams here. And a couple of them kind of interesting, I would say. Atlanta and Detroit in the east, obviously San Antonio out west of Victor Wimbunyama and then the other two the Memphis Grizzlies and the Portland Trailblazers. Atlanta's interesting in part because as you're discussing their young core, you did not include Tray Young.

It's not that young. Well, he's what is he 26 now, I believe? 26, 27? Either way. I mean, yeah, look, I would say that it's. He is 26 turning 27 and 17. September. There you go. I would say Tray Young is a classic actions over words situation. He's got one year left on his contract before he can be a free agent. He is not signed an extension yet.

And like we talked about the other day with Deerrin Fox, I don't think there's a huge market for point guards around the league trade-wise in sort of that tier of player. And I think the way that the Hawks have set up their team, they've sort of set up an ensemble cast around Trey Young where they don't really have a replacement for Trey Young to run their offense, but there's also not a clear home for Trey Young to go elsewhere as a free agent. I would compare him in some ways to Julius Randall's situation in Minnesota this past year, and he ended up getting a new deal done this summer about the number he was at. I'll be curious to see even extension.

It's done with Trey Young or what happened? there. But I think if you look at where the hawks are headed, it's with a team that's built around Jalen Johnson, last year's number one overall pick, Zachary Rishi Sheshay, and then the potential juicy pick they could have next year from the New Orleans Pelicans, which certainly if you talk to people in the league who run numbers, that's got a really good chance of being a top five or six pick in what is a loaded top of next year's draft. And if they end up with an made a meant Darren Peterson, A.J. DeBanza, Cameron Boozer to go with these other guys. That's a pretty awfully interesting situation. But yeah, the Trey Young component of Atlanta's

future going forward is going to be really interesting to monitor because I, if I was, if I was Atlanta, I would be offering Trey sort of a deal like what Rudy Gobert got done with Minnesota, take a bit of money off what you're making now, get some more years. lock yourself in with the Hawks. Guarantee yourself you're going to get your number retired in the future. Best player they've had since Dominique. And we've got a team with an ensemble cast around you that's got a chance to be a real force in the east with you on it. But we can't do it with you on a max.

So it'll be how that conversation goes. I think it's going to be hard to convince Trey Young. And listen, we understand the limitations or the flaws. But I think this can be hard to convince Trey Young with his offensive production. that he doesn't merit a max deal. So, you know, again, I think that I don't disagree with what you're saying. I don't disagree with the implication that Tray Young is not the, that everything is not revolving around Tray Young and Atlanta anymore.

I just think it's an interesting thing to point out. It's interesting. You have the Blazers on this list. I want to talk with the Blazers real quick. I would say that was more of a Kevin Pelton choice to put. them in this tier than me. He just shoved him right out front there. No, it's just the truth.

Oh, what he's saying is that specific Northwest Homerism. Well, it just, I, we had discussions that went different ways. I push for Minnesota to be in the first year. And Kevin, I would say push for Portland to be in this year as example. Right. Well, just like this is a team that, you know, has Jeremy Grinn on a giant untradable contract and just traded for Drew Holiday and his hundred million and signed Dave. Lillard.

So it's hard to a literally untradable contract. That's right. No trade clause contract. I mean, hopefully that ends up being a good value contract that he comes back and is an all star again at the at the level. Well, if it is,

that it's basically a one year deal, one year that he plays deal because he also has a player option. That, I mean, we don't need to go over it again, but the setup that Dame Lillard got, the torn Achilles was horrendous. and everything that's happened since,

not that it makes up for it, everything that's happened since has been amazing for him, including that's, that contract and the extra money is getting. Yeah. And look, in Portland, Portland is in a really interesting spot. They obviously bought out DeAndre Aten this summer

to clear a pathway for playing time for both Donovan Klingin, who they drafted in the lottery last year, and Yang Hansen, who they drafted 16th this year. They clearly have a lot of faith in him as a player long term. They have Shaden Sharp and Scoot Henderson in the back court. I'm curious to see if both of them are starting or not in what the futures for those guys are.

Obviously, you just mentioned they traded for Drew Holiday this summer. They clearly have visions of him playing a big role. They still have Jeremy Grant. They've got Deniavia, who's taking some really nice strides forward for them. He's on a great long-term deal. I do think they're kind of caught in between more. I would have them in this tier. But the argument is you've got Scoot Henderson,

you've got Sheen Sharp, you've got the two bigs, they've leaned into that as the core of their team going forward. Danny Obie is a young guy still. Tomani Kamara, I think. And Tamani Kamara is the other guy, obviously. Yes, he deserves him in that conversation too. And what is Scoot Henderson?

What is Shaden Sharper? Huge, huge question marks. Obviously, like there is major upside there. But the discussion there is about potential. It's not about production or anything that's proven to this point. As for the Grizzlies, you've got Jha and Jaron Jackson in their young core. Are you including, are you including Santi Aldama and Zach Edie? Is that part of the core?

I mean, I would say the core of that team, if you just look at it from the way they've allocated assets. It's the two stars, John Jaron. It's Zach E. Who they drafted 9th. And it's Cedric Coward, who they drafted 11th and traded up to get. Like that's, you know, and then you've got Jalen Wells, too, who they like a lot. And obviously they move Desmond Bain thinking that Jalen Wells can step into his spot in the starting line. Sam Spencer.

They also signed Camper the summer. I mean, they've, you know, over Zach Klamman, they've done a nice job of churning out a lot of useful players from, you know, got Scottie Pippitton, Jr. found him on scrap. He turned into a really good player. Like they've done a really good job of generating depth over the past several years. But they made a big swing on Cedric Howard in the draft. The guy only played a few games last year in college, came out, was the big late riser in the lottery. He's the prototypical wing size player. It's the kind of guy that Memphis is their Desmond Bain replacement.

Well, I mean, they would probably argue more. Jalen Wells. Yeah, Jalen Wells is also a major part of their young core. And he's the guy who is going to be in the starting. I mean, he took Marcus Smart starting job last year, but I think they look at him as, and Coward is a similar prospect, right? Completely off the radar, a D3 guy. I mean, Wells was D2 who, you know, transferred,

I think both to Washington State, if I'm not mistaken. And, you know, it's a lot about. the three and D cowards, I think longer or a little bit more athletic, but that type of guy. And then, you know, you guys mentioned this here, but also if you're talking about the Grizzlies Young Gore, they will be making a significant addition to that next year's draft for the Suns pick. We'll see. Maybe the Suns will be better than everybody thinks. You also put the Detroit.

You got the Suns in the West Playoff pick. No, I'm just trying to. You also have the Pistons on here who I, who I, this actually be a really interesting season for the Pistons because they took the big giant step last year. Where do they find their more improvement? They had a really, you know, they had a competitive series with the Knicks in that first round. Who knows if Jalen Brunson doesn't hit that one shot

where he just stuck his leg in the ground, one of the great moves the whole playoffs, where he pivoted and hit that shot, just dropping the dagger in Detroit. After a Sarr Thompson had been shutting him down for a few minutes. Yeah, so they get J. Navy back from that injury, you know, but definitely their, so their young core, obviously Kate Cunningham, who hit the Supermax, Jade Nivey and Asar Thompson, you know, Ron Holland,

the guy that they drafted in the top five a year ago who didn't have a really impact for a rookie year. They're hoping he takes a step forward. He would have to be, I'm sure, included in that. Jalen Duren, a guy who. Yeah, Duren is really young. Yeah, he's been around a while, but he turns 23 right around the start of the regular season. I'm sorry, 22 right around the start of the regular season. Right. So that's a Detroit's a team to pay attention to this year for various reasons. We'll see when the schedule comes out, but it would not surprise me if they have some

made-for-TV matchups where they get a little bit more attention this year because of what they did last year. We've talked about the Spurs a lot. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Okay, the next tier, Bon Temps, you have all in on two timelines. And this is the one of the, I think I like this one, maybe the most out of all of these. And you've got a bunch of teams you think have two timelines with good reason. Yeah, Pelton, that was Pelton's idea for the, that makes more sense.

And obviously a bunch of star power teams here. And the two timelines are for, you know, obviously it's the, you know, you go back, the Golden State Warriors are in this tier and you go back to the whole light years ahead with the lottery picks. thing, but it's two timelines for a lot of different reasons. Yeah, I mean, they don't want to hear their name mentioned with two timelines again. I try to retire that. That's right. But the teams as a whole are Golden State, two LA teams, the Clippers and Lakers,

Miami, Dallas, and Philadelphia. Dallas sort of fell ass backwards into two timelines on lottery night. You know what? The two timelines thing with Dallas really is fascinating, though, because obviously in a lot of ways from a business perspective and just from like, hey, what the hell is the future after this Byronico's words, three to four year window that you created, the Cooper Flag stroke of lottery luck bailed the Mavericks out. Now, having said that, it's going to be very interesting to see kind of how long is it before the transition happens that this is Cooper Flagg's franchise,

kind of how does that go? It's AD's franchise right now. It's, it's AD's franchise right now. You know, when Kyrie comes back, it'll be AD and Kyrie's with Cooper Flag as kind of the primary marketing interest. But at a certain point, it will be his franchise. And then there's going to be major challenges building long term around him because of the picks and the swaps that they gave up to successfully build a contender around Luca. I mean, when you think about, like, you know, typically you get a generational talent at number one. overall, and there's going to be a couple more cracks at the early lottery, right? Like, look at San Antonio. You know, you get Wimby, you get Stefan Castle. You know, they kind of lucked into Dylan Harper, but they, you know, they got a few cracks early lottery. Derek Clivey the second is a

early lottery type of talent, but he's probably going to be the only other young piece that is kind of on that same timeline with Cooper Flag. You know, they have this year's pick. And then 27 to 30, it's either they don't have the pick or it's a swap. And it's going to be, you know, it's a swap with the Thunder in 28. Swap with the Spurs, who I think will be pretty damn good by 30. And so there's not going to be a lot of young talent being added to the mix as Cooper Flag is, you know, getting into his early 20s.

Yeah, so also on this list, the two LA teams, but the Lakers clearly, you know, set up around 26-year-old Luca Don. Is he 27 or 26? There's 27 in February, 26. Okay, so he's 26 now. Obviously, especially with the comments that Rob Polinka made, you know, around signing him, rightfully so. But then they've got this team this year with 41-year-old LeBron, who is coming off of an all-NVy. I was going to say, I have 41-year-old All-MBA. Right.

So, LeBron James. But you wrote in here, Bontemps, about the Austin Reeves situation. And Austin Reeves is sort of straddling the timelines here because he definitely was a player who thrived, maybe not always with LeBron the court, but certainly with the LeBron formatted team, you know, that when they went to the conference finals, Austin Reeves was a big role in that, and he remains a big role in the team. but he's lined more in age with with Luca and he's going into the final year of his contract he's got an opt out after this year which he's almost certainly going to take and you talked in here

about what a contract for him might look like and so here's my question of you bontems and this may be a question the lakers have to answer which timeline is austin reeves in not necessarily with his age but is he does he represent because they're going to have to make a decision here they're got to make a decision about whether they're going to pay austria's you you you quote league, you know, league executives here saying this guy's getting over 30 million a year. I don't disagree. This, the Austin Reeves portion of this is an interesting thing that's going to develop over this next six to nine months. Yeah, to be clear, that was in a story I do with Bobby Marks.

About the Lakers. That's for him. David Men, about the Lakers that also ran on Wednesday. But yeah, no, look, I think Austin Reeves, you know, there's been a lot of talk about what is going to happen with LeBron James when he becomes a free agent next summer. But I think there's two very fascinating potential free agents in Los Angeles, because we've talked about Austin Reeves before. He's right now on a deal that is below market for him. He's making in the final year of his deal this year, $13.9 million. He's got a player option for $14.8 million. He will not be playing on that player option next year. He will be a free agent. And he will be looking

for a very big payday. I don't remember if you set the number when you were running through that or not, but I talked to a few people around a league, gauging what his market would be, and the belief is $30 million a year or more. And if you're paying Austin Reed... He probably wants Or more. He's probably looking for the or more side of that. I feel like I could say with pretty good clarity

that he would think more than that. And look, you can make an argument that LeBron and Austin will be the two best for agents on the market next summer. There's a debate about... Well, it depends on whether Trey Young or Kevin Durandexstand. Well, but I mean, look, he's in his... and he's going to be 28 years old, but he's a big guard. He's six, five. There's,

you know, he could potentially be the, you know, the lead guard on your offense for you. Like, you know, there are people who are big fans on Austin. That being said, if you look around the league, combo guards who are one position defenders, which I would say Austin Reeves is one. He defends a position. Well, he's a shooting guard. You know, he's like Tyler Hero. He's like Anthony Simons. He's like a lot of these guys who were very talented players, there has not been a great market for in terms of asset return and trades. And they're probably the most replaceable player type in the league. So is he good enough to be the Jalen Brunson or the Kyrie Irving next to Luca

Donchich long term? If he is, I think the Lakers can feel comfortable giving him that kind of number and having those two guys be your creators going forward. If he's not, then I think it's a real question. You have to ask yourself, you're the Lakers about. you know, is that the right piece that you're going to build with with him going forward? Because for all to talk about LeBron, whatever is going to happen with his future, the Austin Reeves question could be the one that has a much bigger bearing on the championship ceiling and window of the Lakers over the next few years

because you're not signing him to a one or two year deal. He's getting a long-term deal at a big number. And then you have him and Luca. And then you're building around him and Luca, assuming that he stays there. So that I do think that subplot throughout the season is going to be very interesting to watch, particularly after he really struggled in the Minnesota series. And as you guys both know, for all the attention on the Lakers this year and all to focus on Lucas Future and everything else, how Austin Reeves plays this season and particularly assuming they get to the playoffs,

how he plays in the playoffs is going to be an awfully interesting story to follow. And it's going to potentially have a big bearing on the Lakers. summer next summer and their seasons beyond that depending on what they decide to do. Yeah, he struggled against the Timberwolves. You know, in his defense, he did have a really good playoff run when they went to the Western Conference finals a couple of years ago. So, you know, it's not like we've never seen this guy play well in the playoffs. You know, you bring up Brunson and some similarities here, some major differences, you know,

one being that at this time last or this time that summer the Mavericks could have gotten Brunson locked up to the contract that would have averaged 14 million a year which but once it got past that point you know once it got into January and Brunson gave him a last chance and then he kept playing better and it was like oh okay hold on I've outplayed that number the Mavericks had a decision to make and that was trade him before that headline, get value for them, or take your chances of losing them for nothing that summer. And the Lakers are already on that. They're in that situation now where their options are either take a chance of losing Reeves for nothing next summer or be willing to pay whatever it takes to keep them.

They do have the advantage of, I'm sure Austin Rees would love to continue playing for the Lakers. or like if you don't want to pay what it's going to take to keep them, do you trade them midway through this season and try to get value? You also have the clippers on here. The clippers, as is well known, have a whole bunch of guys in their mid-late 30s on their roster. They also have one guy on their roster right now who's under contract past next season.

That's a Vitsia Zubach. After that. Last 27 season, to be clear. You're saying. After next season. Oh, you're saying this. Yes. After the 26-27 season.

Their future books are completely clear. And he's talking about two timelines. They got all these guys on this roster from 34-year-old Kauai to 40-year-old Chris Paul. And, you know, Luke, Brooke Lopez is like 37. And Batum is like 37, 38. And, you know, John Collins is still in his 20s, I'm pretty sure. but Jim's Harden is I think 36. So they got, you know, this super veteran team now,

but totally clean books. And they've, and they've worked, you know, in their, you know, they've held the line a little bit with Kauai on his extension. They've held the line on Hardin's contracts. They've given him flexibility to opt out, but kept them short. You know, they, when they acquired John Collins for Norm Powell,

they did that to keep some flexibility in part. So, I mean, they're sort of the epitome of two times. timelines for sure. And then you've got the 76ers on here, Bon Tempts. And I don't think this is by plan. I think it's by reality of the health of their highest paid players. I'm not sure how those guys are going to hold up. Yeah. I mean, they're a lot like Dallas. You've got a young top five. I mean, obviously Cooper is a different level of prospect of VGA, but they got the third pick in the draft. They have VJ. had Cohn. They have Tyreys Max. They have Jared McCain. I thought getting

Jabari Walker on a two-way this summer was nice. They have some good and interesting young players on their roster. And then they've got Paul George and Joelle and Bede, the two giant question marks in terms of their health, in terms of their ability to play at the level required for this team to be really good. And, you know, that's why they fit in this group. You could put them in a couple of different buckets if you wanted to.

They're another team that's hard to put somewhere. In Miami, just because we have... 70% of the cap, by the way, with those two guys. And Miami, since we kind of glossed over them, they're another one of these teams that has a bunch of caps based on the next year or two and has an okay roster now.

Obviously they make the Norman Powell deal this summer, basically get him for free. They should be more of a factor in the east this year than they were the last couple of years. But they've had some designs on trying to upgrade their roster money-wise and they're going to have some money to spend in the next couple seasons too. Well, an interesting thing for the heat,

do they extend Norman Powell, the same such question that the clippers had to deal with. And if do they extend Tyler Hero and if they do at what number, which would, you know, maybe clarify. Both of those guys, I would say, fall into the same exact bucket that Austin Reeves is in also. Two more combo guards who are good players,

whether it's not a voluminous market for them in the trade market, which is why Norm Powell was acquired coming off the best year of his career by the heat for Kyle Anderson, Kevin Love, and a second. All right. All right. Your next tier here is all in on gap years. And you've actually got two teams that are all in on gap years here. Yeah, this one is the easiest one on the whole list. You got Boston and Indiana, obviously no Jason Tatum, no Tyre's Halliburton. The Celtics lose Drew Holiday and Chris Stap's Porzingis by a trade as they, I believe, will get out of the tax by the time we get to the end of the season and reset their repeater clock. They're only, I think, 10 or 12 million over the tax now.

I think they'll get out of it one way or the other. And then Indiana loses Miles Turner, whether they were surprised by the bucks coming in like everyone else was or not. They were. I think Kevin Pritchard's got on the record. I know. But my point is, I'm saying, my point is we talked all spring about were the Pacers actually going to be willing to pay the luxury tax, something they never do. And for all of the bluster they had about paying. the tax. They are not paying the tax. And you could say they're not doing it because Tyrese Halliburton is

hurt. That's fine. But their team was built around an ensemble cast and Miles Turner was a big part of that. Miles Turner left. And they've replaced him with Isaiah Jackson, who also tore his Achilles and is on a three-year deal with non-guarantees in the out years. And they traded for Jayhoff from Memphis. So both of these teams look like they're preparing more for the fall of 2026 rather than trying to as competitive as they can in 2025. Yeah, Achilles tears created tiers that put them in this tier. The next one is you've got all in on quote draft positioning. The tankers.

Very simple. Brooklyn, Charlotte, Washington, and Utah. I don't think we need to say much more than that. Okay, I will say this. I've got Charlotte fans in my life who believe that the Hornets can move this year. Move what? Move up. Well, look, if Charlotte wants to be competitive in the East this year, and if Lamello Ball and Brandon Miller are healthy, sure, I think you can make an argument, certainly, that Charlotte could get into the play-in mix and have a chance to make the playoffs.

I would also say, again, from an actions over word situation, that the current centers on the Charlotte Hornets roster are Mason Plumlee, Ryan Kopprenner, and. the guy who might be their starter, Mousa Diabate. Like, that is not a center rotation of a team that I think is really aggressively trying to move up the standings this year. I think, as Charlotte would love to get a crack at Darren Peterson, Nate DeBantza, A.J. DeBancza, you know, Cameron Boozer, one of these guys, and then put their foot down and start to really rev things up. Yeah, I think if you're a Hornets fan, what you're looking for this year is,

you want con canipple to have a chance to win the rookie of the year. You want to see him be putting up big numbers. You want to see him playing alongside Brandon Miller and trying to figure out a way to get the three of them with Lamello efficient and a way that doesn't make your stomach turn. Like sometimes happens the way they played offense last year. And if those three guys look like you've got something going, then you can be excited about it. Whether you finish 11th or whether you finish, you know, five. And let's see Lamello ball play. That's fair.

Well, played more than 51 games. It's just interesting. You don't have them under your, and I don't want to spend too much time belaboring the point, but we're going to throw the Hornets fans of Boneyer. But you don't have them on, you know, devoted to their young tears here like you had with these other teams.

And, you know, Lamello was also up for an extension. I was going to say, I think the biggest question about Charlotte's future is whether Lamella ball will be part of it. Well, Lamello's still a year away from extension talk. He's still got three more years on his deal after this year. But they've got, I mean, since he played 51 games as a rookie, he played 75 games as a second year.

The last three years, he's played 36, 22, and 47. Like, whatever other questions you want to have about Lamello's game, let's see him play 65 or 70. Yeah. Let's see him qualify for end-a-season awards. Let's see him be healthy and productive for a full season. But yeah, look, like these guys drafted Tejohn Salon. He's got a lot of time to grow still. Brandon Miller had surgery last year missed a bunch of time.

Let's see him come back and play. You mentioned Khan. Let's see what he can do. Brandon Miller will play 27 games last year for them. Like, let's see their young guys on the court and playing. And we'll see where they land. But my guess is this is another lottery balance. They're energized by their summer league championship.

Okay. And the last tier, you have all in. Well, two of them. What? He's got two more tears. Two more tiers. Skipped it. Oh, there's a single team tier that I didn't even see.

Oh, okay. We'll get to there. That's just a little tease. All in on, ooh, this is a harsh one. These last two are both harsh. All in on nothing. These are USWB tears if I've ever seen them. Yeah, this was not pelton.

All in on nothing. I got nothing for you. Go ahead. UF-F-I-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-. Yeah, the Pouten actually did come up with the team, the term for the final tier, because I would have originally had that. If you, your fans, the fans will see how many of them will have done the powers of deduction. Well, the four teams in this group are Charlotte, Sacramento, New Orleans. Not Charlotte.

Not Chicago, New Orleans, Sacramento, and Toronto. Well, I certainly agree with the Bulls. They've been all in on nothing for a while. I think the Pelicans would try to argue they're all in on their young core, including the two guys that they drafted in the first round this year in the lottery this year. But boy, it was that a befuddling, just a befuddling trade to give up a likely higher pick in next year's draft to move up 10 spots. Well, they're also one of the Achilles teams. Their Achilles injury to Jean-Tay-Murie happened a while ago. So it doesn't get grouped in with the three unfortunate ones we saw in the postseason.

Well, and they weren't a playoff team. Yeah. They're just sort of whip sawing all over the place. And it's hard to really get a sense of what the overall plan is with the new regime, led by Joe Dumas and Charlie Weaver. I would also say there's an unclear plan in Sacramento. Oh, and real quick on New Orleans, again, there's still the, hey, like, what's up with Zion? Is this a guy you're building around?

Is this a guy you can get value for? There remains off-court stuff. Yes. Yeah, it's just there's just not, there's not a lot of clarity in general there. Yeah, I mean, look, Sacramento a few years ago had Tyrese Halliburton and Deeran Fox. Then you have exit meetings, exit interviews back in April,

and DeMontas is saying, yeah, we need a point card on the team. And they basically still out there. They're right. Russ is still out there. Russ is still out there. They've basically recreated the bulls from a couple years ago with the modus of bonus.

Who were also with. Well, yes. As the modus of bonus in the Nick Vucevich spot alongside De Mardi Rosen and Zach Levine. Like it, I thought they did fine on the ear, the Deeran Fox trade when Fox wanted out to get the assets they did for Fox at the time. But yeah, it's just from where these guys were a couple years

go, they fire Mike Brown, they fire Monty McNair, they've blown things half up, and they're kind of stuck in no man's land where they're not really rebuilding, and they're also not really good enough to be a playoff team. The Raptors fans would be annoyed that they're here, you know, that those folks, those fine folks in Toronto are a little sensitive. They would be a little annoyed saying, you know, here comes Brandon Ingram, and Grady Dick had a good finish to last year, and, you know, Scotty Barnes, this is when he ascends. Yeah, I mean, Toronto, Toronto is kind of in the same spot where, like, they make this Brandon Ingram trade.

I mean, they essentially turned Fred Van Vleet, Pascal C. Haccom, and O.G.N. O.B., into R.J. Barrett, Emmanuel quickly, and Brandon Ingram. Like, when you look at the sum total of their moves, I'm not a huge fan of that. They gave Yacca Purtle an odd extension, I thought, this summer. They have some interesting young guys. Grady Dick had an interesting year. year, Jacoby Walter has some potential, Carl Murray Boyles, the guy they took with the ninth picking the issues draft, super interesting defensive prospect. He's got a chance to be in all.

Hey, Jamal Shed was a revelation down the stretch last year. I really like Jamal Shed. He's going to be a long-term, really good backup point card, I think, in the NBA, like a long-term rotation player. But again, like, they're in the tax with the team that, like, are they out of the playing in the East, maybe? Like, in the plan? Well, they're definitely one of the 10 best teams. the east of the thing i i would almost say they're all in on the playing like maybe maybe that maybe it's the same thing of saying all in on nothing but i would i think they're all in on the play in yeah it's just it's just hard to really pin down again like what the overall vision is like when and maybe this is i mean obviously messiah left this summer he had an incredible run in toronto

but if you go back a couple years ago when they started when they didn't resign fred van fleet and they made these trades the idea was you bottom out and come back up. And last year, they didn't keep their pick, ended up going, ended up being the pick that became Rob Dillingham as part of a prior trade to bring Yacca Pertil back to Toronto. Don't like the value on that. This year, they end up with the ninth pick. Again, get a player, I think so got a chance to be a really good player in Calamary Boyles. But it's just felt like they've kind of been straddling, rebuilding, and trying to get back in the playoffs for the past couple of years. And I'm not, I'm not thrilled about where it left. You said with certainty that there

a top 10 team in the east. They're better than Washington. They're better than Brooklyn. I'll give you Charlotte. Who else are they with absolute certainty better than? They're better than Chicago, I would say for sure. Let me look at the standards. I don't know if that's a certainty, but okay. I would say they finished beneath them last year. I would say they're better than Chicago. I think there's a decent chance. If Philly has injuries, I think there's a decent chance. They're better than Philly. I think they could be better than Boston potentially this year because I think the Celtics could really struggle. Boston, Indy is another one you could have questions about. I think Toronto's floor, I think, is fairly high because they have a bunch of solid players.

I think their floor is 12. Well, I think their floor is higher than that. But my point is the ceiling is not very high. And if like coming out the other side of a rebuild, in theory, they're on the other side of the rebuild now. Like this is their team. This is why they're in this tier because we're talking about them. And as Brian said, you could argue they're all in on the play in. I would say that's sort of the same kind of thing Sacramento is in.

They're Sacramento of the East, I would say, is the simplest way to put it. That's never something. The one different, the one. You don't want to hear however you finish that sentence. You're the Sacramento of the one difference is the one difference there that is worth pointing out is Scotty Barnes, has a chance to be really, really good. And if he does take a big step forward and becomes an all-MBA forward,

a true all-MBA forward this year, like what Kate Cunningham did last year, for example, this conversation looks different if he's a top 15 player in the league. And we'll see if he can make that time. What happened before Kate Cunningham had his big breakout season? They went out and surrounded him with shooting.

Yes. And Theron is only not added shooting to this team. Yeah, they put him in a, in a situation where he had a chance to succeed. And I don't think that's happened with Scotty Barnes. All right. The final tier. I didn't see this when I read the story.

You got to keep scrolling. I guess so. All in on 2024. By the way, it's 2025. Another way to put this, when all in goes wrong. Phoenix Suns, obviously in this tier, you know, we've talked a lot about the Suns and decision-making, you know, I think as McMan just said it very well, when Allend goes wrong, the sons are a good example of that, you know, from the Bradley Biel buyout to the failed Kevin

Durant trade to, I mean, you could even argue maybe down the road, the Devin Booker extension, you know, there, yeah, it's going to be a rough few years ahead in Phoenix, most likely. Well, their fans would say that Brian Gregory did a good job of bringing in, you know, size and focusing on defense and that, you know, they were really able to improve their depth and, you know, acquiring the lottery pick, you know, come on Malewatch, you know, gives them something they haven't had in a while, which is a young player to build around, you know,

they would probably push back. Their front office would say this. Well, you know what I think their fans would say? I guess that's a fair point. Their fans would say, hey, thank goodness that Ishpia slash beer prices. They turned Kevin Duran into Jalen Green. I would say that that would be my return. Well, you got to hold on.

Now I'm going to call you on that. You got to see what Malia Watch becomes. Dylan Brooks is a solid role player. Yes, no, I agree. They got some, but I'm just saying like, I don't think the trade was a mistake. That trade. No, right, that trade.

The last trade. I'm just saying, though, that that is the situation that the sons put themselves. in where the way they could make was to get what you can charitably call a very distressed asset. Oh, yeah. A solid role player and the 10th pick in the draft for Kevin Durant. Well, and the simple fact of the matter is this.

The Rockets gave you back your own pick and they still have two in their pocket. Yes. So, and like when we're discussing. Yes. And when we're, right. And when we're discussing like the Grizzlies. you bring up the 26 son's pick. You know, like having son's picks is one of the most valuable assets for multiple

teams around the league. And even, even to, like, like, for example, the, like the Mark Williams trade that Phoenix made. Mark Williams is an interesting young player, like we talked about in February, he's flawed player, both from a game style of play and from an injury. standpoint. And they don't have very many first round picks to trade. And they traded two of them to get them after they dropped to come on model one of them was a 29th pick in this draft. But yes, I'm just saying, but listen, they drafted the Hornets got Liam McNeily with that pick who was going into the draft the top 20 pick and is a guy who could be a really good shooter long term,

which like these guys could use. Again, like from even from some of their asset management stuff like that. Like you draft the center at 10, you trade two first round picks of your very limited pool of assets for another center five minutes later. Well, and how did how do they get, how did they get those picks that they gave up for Mark Williams? Right, doing the trading three, trading four, three end of the first round draft picks for an unprotected future first round pick that Justin Zannick from the jazz when he made the trade openly said was the best. that asset in the league when they made the trade. And I think it's hard to, I mean, I think the trade, the pick the hawks got a few months later

might have surpassed it. But there are not many assets in the league with more value than that future sons first that Utah got in exchange for three picks that are, I'd say probably 80 to 90 percent likely to be 25 or later in the draft. All right. Well, those, that completes the tiers. I just picture you're a son's fan You're a son's fan

You're scrolling through Saying oh is this is this a tier my team's gonna be in Oh maybe is this a tier my team? There is a son's And out there that's reading Content about the NBA in August I would suggest to them to go have a nice drink And find a pool

And probably leave the state of Arizona Where it's 5,000 degrees right now And in the north In the north there's some nice Not reading In northern Arizona All right. Thank you very much to Jackson, who's got to edit through all this direct. Thank you to McMahon and Bontem.

Thank you to you again for sticking with us through August. If you are with us this far into this podcast at this date on the calendar, we love you. We couldn't do it without you. And we will talk to you next week. Nobody provides sunshine like the USWB. Adios Meagos.