Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - What Is Going On With Kawhi & The Clippers? Big Decisions For Denver & Phoenix

Episode Date: August 11, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN’s Anthony Slater to break down the latest on the situation with Kawhi and the Clippers including how that will impact the plans for the Raptors. Next, we discuss how Dillon Brooks’ contract impacts the future spending plans for the Suns before we talk about why Denver’s books put them in trouble moving forward. Finally, we remember NBA legend Don Nelson. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Wayfair, every style, every home. Hello, and welcome the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing from Paris for me here on late Sunday evening and joining me on Sunday morning, or late Sunday morning. or late morning, maybe it's only afternoon, from Northern California as Anthony Slater. What's up, Slater? Almost directly noon.

And I'm in the Sacramento area. It's hot. It's like 102 or something like that. So we've reached that part of the summer. Yeah, no kidding. Well, it's been hot in Europe as well. So lots of NBA folk, though, in Europe, you know, right now, this is the time.

The Spurs have all been over here all week. Victor Wembeyanma hosting a get-together with most of the Spurs team. They've been around town. They got a little bit better. access to the Louvre than I did Slater. Like they posted a photo of all of them right next to the Mona Lisa, like in the room by themselves. I did not have such access. I bet you can get it.

Did you see what Victor posted? He was on a boat in the Sen, and he took a, you know, he looked at the Eiffel Tower and then looked back at himself and said, just like the Riverwalk in San Antonio. So I don't know if that was endearing or I'm not sure which, you know. we'll just go with endearing because you know Victor is you know we're still learning about his personality a little bit how new to you are like the summer team trips I mean I think

it just feels like they're popularizing more and more obviously Luke is doing one right Slovenia I think guys do the LA ones but it feels like especially with like the flood of international guys in the league it just feels like it's becoming more and more popular it's definitely something that most teams do

I think in some cases like the team is sort of, I don't make any accusations. I think the team sort of sometimes secretly subsidizes it a little bit. They certainly subsidize it by sending personnel there in a lot of cases to make sure their players are taking care of. I mean, last year we had the really unfortunate situation with Fred Van Blyte when he tore his ACL on the rocket trip to the Bahamas. But they have like over the last decade, it was like,

we're going to get together in Miami or L.A. And now it's getting more and more far flung. So Victor hosts the team in Paris this summer. Lucas hosting them in Slovenia. Where is this envelope going, Slater? What are also the rule? This will be probably the theme of the podcast. I'm sure because we're about to get to Kauai.

But what are the rules as far as like, because I know like some coaches go and might like kind of help run like, you know, a scrimmage, but I think you can't do like too much like organized type team drills. I'm sure. Like is the head coach even a lot? loud? Can he sit there in the gym and watch? Or how does it? Yeah, I'm not sure. And I'm, you know, I'm not like, you know, it's as close to the media. So we don't exactly know what's going on. So a lot of it is you're basically relying on social media.

So I don't know. But I know that some teams have gone to the unions facility in Spain. The union has a facility in Spain. In fact, the union just announced this week that they, this has actually been the case for a while, but they officially opened it. The Clippers, you know, they built a new facility. in Intuit Dome. How about that for a transition? I'm about to make there Slater. And their old facility in L.A. in Playa Vista, the union acquired. And so now the union has a base in New York. You've seen that, you know, in many different social media videos, the unions base in a high rise in Manhattan. They have a court up there. And so players can go there and work out. They've had this one in Spain for a few years, which players have used in the summer.

And now they have one officially in L.A., like Obisca Union Base. And, you know, I know that there's downward pressure on salaries and spending to a certain extent because of the aprons. It feels like teams are sort of cutting spending. But just in case you didn't know, but the NBA money is pouring into the NBA. The union now with three global workout facilities. And this week I read a story that the first, so the teams are getting new jets. Do you know about this later?

No. Okay. So the teams have for the last, you know, I don't know, seven to ten years have been using this fleet of Delta 757s. They look like greater their Delta planes. They're outfitted for teams. NHL teams use them. WMBA teams use them.

them they're used, but basically they're outfitted from NBA teams. I think there's like 14 or 15 of them and they circle around the country, moving teams around all year long. Well, they're getting, over the next year, they're getting replaced. And the first new NBA jet is ready. It just got ready in the last week. I think it got delivered last week or so. And do you know what the upgrade done this later is? Is that now they have lay flat seats? I traveled to China with the warriors several years ago, you know, just for logistical purposes. It was like everybody, you know, pack into this same monster plane. And I got that experience, the lay flat for that trip.

Wow. I'm very impressed that you made the cut getting the lay flat seat and they didn't stick you in the back as a media member. That's, uh. Well, I went, then went to Japan several years later and I was in like that, the backside. I think it was an even more of an upgraded plane for, for, you got to remember the Warriors at the time with the Beatles. I mean, like, I, I walked off the plane.

in China right behind Steph and it was like, you know, it was like a seat, you know, like one of those old backshy boys videos where like there's like all these people going crazy at the, that's what it felt like walking off a plane with Steph and Clay. That's when they had the toaster. You remember the thing with Clay with the toaster? No, remind me about the toaster. I mean, I'm familiar with China Clay. Clay one time signed a toaster at like an event and it became like part of his lore. It was like, you know, he's Clay being Clay. He's signing a toaster. And then we got to China. that had just happened semi recently

and we got to China and there was a ton of Chinese fans with like toasters, like holding them up. That's amazing. That is something that the Chinese would really attach themselves to because the games are an impossible hour in China

and this is the same in the Philippines, my experience there. It's hard for them to watch the actual live games. So they really attach themselves. You know, they consume the NBA largely on social media and it's largely, you know, memes and and social media stuff. And so that's exactly what the Chinese would love. It was a story

like that. But anyway, yeah, but that was, you know, that was an overseas charter. That isn't a normal, that isn't, you know, an everyday flight from, you know, San Francisco to, you know, Chicago. And now, you know, I don't think all the planes are going to be there, but starting this year, they're going to, the live flat seats are going to be moving in. So that's, I mean, frankly, the teams travel overnight, the technology is available. Like, it only makes sense that they have that. So I have a question for you. You said they were delivered this week, or at least the first one was,

are you saying like all, the first one? The first one. Every team got it delivered or, you know, is there a like, no, no, no, no. Like I said, they share them. They share them. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, they rotate around and like each team has like different, like,

when a team comes in, they like slip, like, signage in. And, you know, it has signage all over that thing. But when they're done with the Warriors flight, then they take all the Warriors signs down. And now they're flying the heat, you know, you know, somewhere. And they put all the heat signage in. Like they, you know, but they're all the same planes. It's the same fleet.

How many planes total do you need to, you know, execute an NBA calendar? I think there's 14 or 15. Yeah. Sounds about right. There's 14 or 15. Let's just do story time brought to you by SoFi. Get Your Money Right. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

When I was in the Cavs locker room, when I was covering the Cavs, and there was this moment where the team, the travel manager came over to LeBron before the game. And on that particular night, there was just a crazy amount of NBA teams traveling and NHL teams traveling. And so they actually, like, ran out of planes.

So they had to like, this probably doesn't happen that often, They had to go get an extra plane. And the Cavs had a short trip. They were going to like Milwaukee or Washington or something. And so he didn't just tell LeBron. He told all the players this. But I remember standing next to LeBron when this happened. And he was like, hey, just so you know, there's no card table on the plane tonight.

They were playing a game and they were traveling after for a back-to-back. And he was going around telling people, hey, just so you're aware, you know, we've got a different type of plane tonight. No card table in it. And LeBron said, boy, is so-and-so going to be really pissed off about that because there was a big game planned and they were down. So now lay flat seats and probably banquet tables in the New Jets. So I don't know about the banquet tables.

I'm just saying I do know they have lay flat seats. But you bring up a good points later. If there's only a few of those points, planes. Like, you know, if you know, let's say that, you know, only a few of them are rotated in, you know, who gets the, who gets the good planes? Hopefully the long trips, you know, I don't know. Anyway, I'm sure there'll be some stories about that during the stretch. Let's focus on the Los Angeles Clippers because Pablo Torre late last week had an update to his reporting on Kauai Leonard and the Clippers. And let me just say, it involves the scoreboard maker Dactronics.

who did the $100 million scoreboard at Intuit Dome, the Halo board they called. It's an unusual scoreboard like no one I've ever seen. It's unbelievable. Yeah, instead of, you know, most scoreboards, you're looking at the four or five or six sides, but you're looking at the outside. It's hanging in the center.

You're looking at the outside. The halo board goes all around the whole arena, and you're looking up sort of in the inside of the ring. I'm in the outside, too, but the inside of the ring. So it has a completely different vantage point and way more surface area. I don't know for a fact, but it's probably the most elaborate score we'd ever build in an arena. Certainly in America.

Yeah. Yeah, certainly the ones we've seen. Yeah, the innovation was the Cowboy Stadium, right, back in the day. This is way more elaborate than that. Right. It's a completely different sort of inside out. So Slater, what the key thing that Pablo was reporting here is that Kauai Leonard had, he cites a former Clippers official who said that Kauai had a, multi-million dollar

sponsorship deal with Daktronics, which has never been announced. Dactronics never announced that he's, you know, Dactronics doesn't even do typically any advertising or any marketing, at least not marketing to the public. The only celebrity endorser ever would be. Yeah, we don't know that.

We don't, you know, but obviously it's suspicious. Now, when the aspiration story came out, you know, a year ago, for me, Slater, it was hard to understand. because I didn't understand what aspiration was as a company. I didn't understand carbon credits. I mean, I understand the general concept of it, but I didn't understand how this was such a big business, planting trees and selling carbon credits.

And it definitely was highly suspicious, be it's what led the NBA to an investigation. But I had difficulty understanding it. And also, the guy who ran aspiration was a fraudster. You know, the one thing that throughout the entire, aspiration scandal. And I am not an investigative reporter, nor am I doing an event. I did a little bit of reporting on, um, on that story. Like I called some other Clipper sponsors and asked them if they were ever asked to, you know, throw money Kauai's way and they said no. But I really haven't done

the story. I am not, I'm not involved with it at all. Um, but from where I sat, the guy who went to prison for many years, this guy, Joe Sandberg, to me, it looked to me like it was a Ponzi scheme. where he needed new investment to keep his Ponzi scheme going, and he did whatever made Steve Ballmer happy because he was where he was given the new investment from. That to me looked like what it was. I'm not saying that's what it was. I'm just saying I didn't understand, okay?

It was just hard to completely get. Let me say this situation is not hard to understand, at least the concept, because what Pablo is laying out is the appearance of a kickback. I can figure out a kickback very easily. I do not have to have, you know, FBI training or, you know, be an assistant U.S. attorney to understand the concept of a kickback. And that is essentially, that is not directly what Pablo is alleging here, but that is the scenario that he is laid out. And the thing that comes along with this is that some other outlets, including the athletic, have reported that the league was looking at a second deal with involving Kauai.

And the trade to Toronto had was slowed down. And the other thing that I think is very interesting to me is Dactronics did not come out with a statement on Thursday or Friday or Saturday or Sunday. we'll see what the new week brings, that completely denied this whatsoever. They had a crisis PR man, an outside public relations specialist, say something like, well, Kauai is under contract with Daktronics right now.

It was not a full-throated denial. And so lots of haze here, the Clippers didn't comment, but Slater, this to me is extremely, extraordinarily troubling and is now, you know, and the lack of response for days on end here. Because remember, the Clippers, when the aspiration thing came out within a day or two, Steve Ballmer was in Bristol, Connecticut, talking and denying to Ramona, Romona Shelbur and our colleague. And look, maybe we're in the summer, people are away.

I'm not, you know, story may change in the next 12 hours. I'm not seeing full-throated denials. This one looks a little different to me. Yeah, look, salary cap circumvention theoretically has 29 victims, right? 29 teams. It's, it's, but if we look back and, you know, when a lot of this stuff is perceived to happen, what the benefit for the Clippers was to steal them away from Toronto,

they would be, to me, the biggest victim of what happened and what is the ironic is right now they, you know, again, they did it to themselves to a degree initially agreeing to this Kauai trade, but they are on the backside of this like circular situation, the victim again. But is it your understanding? I mean, I believe Adam Silver even kind of said this at his most recent press conference that, like Toronto is the one that have held this trade up, right? If Toronto wanted to go through and just say, hey, we'll just, we'll eat whatever

punishments potentially come. Like the trade could be executed at this point, right? It's all Toronto. Yes, Adam Silver, I was at the press conference in Las Vegas. Adam Silver said those words essentially that it was not the league stopping the trade. It was by the teams. And I assume he didn't say Toronto, but I mean, I think Toronto would be the one to do that. So, you know, you have the side situation here where eventually the league is going to have to dole out punishment.

Obviously, there's so much like, just like legal twists and turns. There's probably still, you know, a ton to go. But my interest level is still on this, you know, held up trade. how it in some ways is holding up business this summer. Obviously, players careers, right? Brandon Ingram, Grady Dick, for example, Kauai, obviously. Is there a point as this unfolds, Toronto just pulls out? And then, you know, that changes the summer.

That change, you know, do they go try to do something else? In all honesty, like, in terms of, like, you know, there's certain people who want the book thrown at the Clippers, they want the Clippers to be held accountable on all this. let me just say the clippers full-throated denials both publicly and privately have been so strong and i'm not i mean i'm talking about on a personal level you know like with the highest levels of the clippers to my face um you know it was let's put this way i mean i could never be on a jury because i know too many people but if i was on the jury because i know too many people but if i was

a jury, their denials were so strong and not just like, you know, saying, we didn't do it. And then, you know, saying it with, you know, with a pleading look in their face. But they're, you know, you know, sort of the case that they laid out and all this stuff. Like evidentiary case? Like, I mean, you know, not formally, but like informally. Like, you know, I mean, I go to a lot of Clipper games, you know, and I'm not asking questions about it every day. But, you know, over the course of the nine, ten months, I, you know, I looked these people in their eye. And Balmer denied it, like, in letters to judges.

Like, it was a extraordinarily fierce denial on this, on this aspiration stuff. And, look, I don't, I don't even know how, I mean, Pablo's reporting has, and he's one of Pulitzer Prize on this. And Pabal's reporting is routinely been largely proven correct. So, like, I don't know what the source is that said he had a contract. You know, that's obviously key. Did he get money from Dactronics? But Slater, if this is accurate, like, the clipper's side of it is devastating.

Okay? So that's just, but let's put that aside for right now. Yeah, Toronto side is what I'm like. Yes, for the actual business of the NBA for the 26, 27 season. This is not just a clipper issue. Last year was a clipper issue. Now it is no longer just a clipper issue. Whether Kauai Leonard is on the Raptors or not,

has a huge circumstantial fallout in the Eastern Conference. And then obviously, like, you know, Demarder Rosen has held up to a certain extent, for example, and, you know, some other players. But, you know, James Hardin hasn't done his business with the Cavs because they're waiting on things. Peyton Watson, Benedict Mathrin is an important clippers.

Yeah, there's a, There's a series of things here. But even beyond the free agent log jam, just I don't, the Raptors have been building their team around Kauai, you know, and they've been ready to extend his contract. Brandon Ingram has been ready to be a clipper. Do you think Brandon Ingram is in the headspace to go back and be a Raptor at this point? Like, this is, the other stuff's going to play out.

Like, you know, and it's the, and Baxter Holmes has reported that this could, this investigation could play out well into the season. And I don't know how this changes it, but theoretically you could say, hey, like the deadline for the Raptor to decide yes or no, probably to them, you know, is the day before training camp. But also, yeah, as you laid out, if their ultimate verdict is like, hey, we can we just, we can't get into business with Kauai right now. Sure, you could bring Brandon Ingram back ready to, like, crazier things have happened in the league. but also maybe you do want to pivot to something else. Maybe you do want to dangle Brandon Ingram out there, go after different guys. You know, again, I did a King story this week, for example.

They have, they at the deadline, really sniffed around on Demona Sabona's a bonus. Not saying that they're going to necessarily revive that exact, you know, conversation, but if you are the Raptors, like maybe you do want to just. No, if you're the Raptors, you got to be, you got to be recalling your people from their summer vacations. I mean, maybe not actually, but you're having, you're having contingency plans now. And, you know, I don't know when the Raptors found this out. You know, the Raptors, you know, one of the things that came out of the Adam Silver Press conference was that the league was getting regular updates on the investigation. Like, he had to be kind of pulled there, but he finally revealed the league was not in the dark.

And I do not believe, I'm going to, I want to be careful about this because of aggregation. I do not believe that Pablo's story was the first time that the league had heard about Dactronics. I'll say something else. And this is a little bit more circumstantial, whatever, but like the Warriors were really like into the Kauai Lenter Trade idea at the trade deadline, looked last February. They were less into that idea this summer. And I, you know, again, part of it is like the, you know, Kauai extension and, you know,

Kauai clearly in a lot of ways. wanted to direct himself to Toronto, right? I think we would both agree that that was part of the trade, you know, complexities. But also, like, you know, I think started to be sniffing around the league of this idea, like maybe there was punishment heading Kauai's away. And I think that might have, you know, warded off some suitors. Yes, but, you know, multiple teams talked to the league office. The league office said they wouldn't stop a trade in June.

And then they went ahead with the deal. And, you know, the reason the league is, is being very careful here is there's still not over the fallout from the Terry Rozier situation. Now, to remind you of that, Terry Rozier was investigated by the league. The investigation was never public. They did not find wrongdoing. And then the Hornets traded him to Miami and the heat were in the dark. They didn't know about the investigation.

They didn't know that they were acquiring a player who was potentially under investigation from the federal government. and they traded a first round pick for him and they lost him for this whole last year and then they're still out the pick the pick hasn't even conveyed yet now the heat have moved on they traded for Janus

you know they've moved on but the heat were you know they had a case that they were highly wronged and so the league is obviously going to be careful about this no matter what but especially coming off of the Rozier situation where that did not go well.

I'm not going to assign blamed anything. Let's just say that did not go well. And so the league, I think, was way more out there with the Kauai thing, warning the Raptors and any other team who might have had interest in Kauai. And, you know, so I put it this way. To get back to what you said, I absolutely believe that the,

So the Raptors have got to be considering what their alternatives are at this point. And so we will see about that. Okay, we did have some NBA business since we last got together, contractual business, and that was Dylan Brooks agreeing to a three-year, $73 million contract extension with the Phoenix Suns. Dylan had a terrific year in his first year in Phoenix. They, you know, I don't know if they would say they overachieve, but they achieved more than a lot of people thought that they would. And he had one year and 21 million left on his deal.

And so he adds three years starting at 22.5 million in 27, 28. So the new money doesn't begin for a year. Now, Miles, so I'd say something about Phoenix. first off, Slater, the value of this contract, the average salary here is about $24.5 million. It's not a bad number. It's a good number for Dylan. He's obviously got to be thrilled, and he's earned it.

When we do contracts, I always think, can they trade it? So he's out got four years and about $95 million. left on his contract. Could they trade it? Yes, would be the answer. That's probably. I mean, he's a culture setter. I think he has shown he improves.

Not only obviously does he, you know, bring a level of kind of winning seriousness, but he clearly takes the job very serious. So, like, I think he'll age well. And then, you know, he's his scoring. Well, what did he, I mean, you might not have it up. Yeah, I did. I mean, his, you know, he was.

a career like 14 point a game score, 13, 14 point a game score. And I mean, he took way more shots last year. His role was a lot different. And it still looks really funky. And there are situations where he's trying to break guys down off the dribble. And it's just like it doesn't look like your, you know, number two score on a team. Yeah. Well, he averaged 20 points a game last year.

You know, he was 20 point in game score. Fringe all defense. I think it was a fringe all-star. Remember, there was like real All-Star case. from last year. Yeah, yeah. 24 is like, what's that new? No, I'm more about the average value is fine.

It's more about the years. I'm not going to spend much time analyzing it. You know, good for him. He earned it. I'm just looking at the Sun's books. And so the expectation is that they're going to eventually extend Miles Bridges. They traded for Miles Bridges this summer. We call Phoenix West Lansing.

You know, Bridges has one year, $23 million left on his contract. It doesn't appear he's going to extend this summer. He has to wait. I think he's going to wait six months. I hope we could use Bobby Marks to help us with that. But no, he's extension eligible right now. I take that back. But this is kind of like the Schaams report the other day of Anthony Davis is going to wait into the season. Almost nobody wants to wait into the season. You typically want your deal done. But I think eventually there's a very good chance that Miles Bridges is going to get extended, is my point. And so if you look at the Sun's books looking at the 27, 28 season after this upcoming year,

you've Devin Booker at $61 million. Jalen Green has a player option at $36 million. Maybe he does a new deal and replaces that number. but for now I'm going to put 36 million. So that's, you know, that's 97 million for those two players. I can't wait for one of the names you're going to mention coming up that is on the books and also a free agent right now. You got Dylan Brooks at 22.5. So that's, you know, 120 million for those three players and whatever Bridges signs for,

and I doubt it'll be for a pay cut. You know, so between those four players, you're looking at, probably going to be in the neighborhood of, you know, $150 million for those four players. And then, of course, the Bradley Beal, $19.3 million for years into the future. So what, four more seasons of that? Is that right? Yes. The answer is yes. So what you're basically looking at with Phoenix is the queen.

In Tet, because it is what it is, Booker, Jalen Green, Miles Bridges, Dylan Brooks, and Bradley Beale, you're looking at just south of, you know, 175 million. I like what the sons have done. Like, you know, obviously, Jordan Ott had a great first year. Brian Gregory, their GM has, you know, did a really nice job. Colin Gillespie, they signed to a nice extension this summer. A lot of people like that. You know, they signed Mark Williams to a reasonable extension, short deal that wasn't out of line below the mid-level. They signed Jordan Goodwin to a long-term deal.

A lot of the league like that, those are all nice, nice singles. You know, Come on, Malew Watch looked great in Summer League. You know, that's what you want to see from your second-year player. You want to see him dominate. He looked good. Like those are all things that if you're a Sons fan that you are like, you know, this is really good. You know, they got Luke Kinnard at a really nice number, two years and 12 million. I think the second year is a player option.

But, you know, getting Kinnard for six months. These are all moves that I really like, that I'm like, you know, Phoenix is on the right track. But then I look at that top of that line of that salary structure. And I look at the rest of the West later. I'm just like, is that? are you happy with your $170 million a year? You know, and you know all the stuff about the aprons and everything, but like, you know, what do you think that the ceiling of that group is?

All right, because I think, you look, they boxed them into a degree of this team that was like kind of feel good story last year. It was, you know, there was a bump off how miserable the prior couple seasons were right. And it was just like, oh, they're playing hard. The local fans like them. As long as your expectations are like that is okay for the next few years, right? Like kind of that play in bracket range. Maybe you can surprise you get into the first round as they did last year.

You're okay. Right, they got swept by the thunder. Obviously they would have loved to take a game or too often. But if like, do you think internally there's this idea of like, okay, now I'll step forward this year? Now we get into the second round because that is where I'm with you like that? Like, where is that upside with this core? I don't, I don't see it. So anyway.

And I would just say like, again, this. This is not a CNBC podcast, but Matt Ishpia. You know, I like Matt Ishpia. He's been on the podcast. You know, I think he's a type of owner I think you want because he's aggressive, you know, maybe not with his decision making in certain cases, but you want an owner who's putting money to the team. You know, he's really put a lot of money into the mercury. He built them a new practice facility.

and his decision, you know, the process that they did to get to Jordan, not, you know, they went through a very long process to get George to Jordan not like that. Like they obviously made a good choice there. Like, you know, I could go on and on, you know, qualifying this. But Matt Isbiyah's mortgage business is in bad shape. His company reported a $500 million loss in their last quarter and that stock plunge 50%. last week. And, you know, I am not in the mortgage business. You know, there's a hundred different things that I, that I probably don't understand. But I would just say that in the last 12 months,

his stock price is down 70 percent. And his personal net worth is down, you know, according to Forbes, $3 billion in that time frame. So, you know, just keep that in mind that, you know, I mean, look, he's still very wealthy. We're not staying awake tonight worrying about whether Matt's going to make his mortgage payment, his own mortgage payment. But, you know, that is something to be aware of. And I'm sure if you're a son's fan, you are aware of that. That he had this business, his business is struggling. And so, you know, when you have five players on your books making that much money,

you're very likely going to have to be a luxury taxpayer. And the owner's personal finances are struggling. Yeah. And, I mean, we'll see how that impacts personnel decision-making. But as you mentioned, I mean, like, you know, at the same time, they are committing long-term money. Well, the question I would have to Matt, and he probably would answer this if I asked him in all honesty, he probably would say that they would do it anyway. So, you know, I don't know for sure, but last summer they made the decision to wave and stretch Beal.

And that decision probably contributed not because Brad was a issue in the locker and whatever, but that moving on from Bradley helped, I think, they have a step forward season. would he have committed to waiving $100 million in dead money if he had lost, you know, multiple millions, multiple billions of net worth the same summer? Maybe he would. I will say, didn't didn't that particular wave and stretch save an outrageous amount of like tax penalty money in the immediate? You know what? You are, you are correct. Yeah, Bobby had, I remember Bobby had like a specific number that was like eye popping. A little bit like the thunder this summer, right? Every trade the thunder made would be like,

well, I'd actually save X amount of million. I do remember that was part of the, you know, I guess the appeal of the, of the Bealway was just pure liquid finance. Well, speaking of dealing with finances. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Peyton Watson is still an unrestricted,

or still restricted free agent. He's out there. There's all these, you know, I would just say in general, and I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know what's going to happen. But I'm seeing a lot of people talk about sign-and-trade situations, okay? And I don't think people are seeing the full picture.

And maybe I'm not seeing it correctly. Maybe the people that I'm talking to don't see it correctly either. But for example, I keep seeing Jonathan Cominga sign-and-trades. My friends, the Atlanta Hawks are $4 million below the luxury. tax. If they send Jonathan Cominga somewhere that sends a player back, it sends them into the tax, it's got to be a very attractive trade

for them to go into the tax. Okay? Because it's not just a matter whether the trade works. It's a matter of whether that the Hawks want to go into the tax to help Jonathan Cominga. Okay? I see the same thing about the Milwaukee Bucks because the Milwaukee Bucks, you know, they've been tied to Cominga, they've been tied to Peyton Watson

for example. And people point out that they have this really big trade exception. I think it's a $25 million trade exception that they have from the Janus of Tena Kumpo trade. And you absolutely can use a trade exception to acquire a player. And so that's one of the things they say, well, if they don't have to send in, the bucks don't have to send any money back, you know, if they were to say trade, sign and trade for Jonathan Kaminka. That is true.

Absolutely correct. But the bucks themselves are right up against the luxury tax. There are $10 million below the luxury tax. And they're $14 million below the first apron, which is where they're hard-capped. They can't spend more than $14 million. Also, it should be mentioned heading towards a year where it wouldn't make a ton of like... Of course not. For them to go sky into the tax, basically.

And I understand we're in the dead part of the season and people are filling their space, everything like this, but I'm seeing like, oh, the bucks are going to get this deal done. It's going to be great. I'm just like my friends, my good friends. I love you all in the media. The bucks have $10 million below the tax. They're not going into the tax. I mean, with all due respect, I understand Peyton Watson's a good player.

It's not an evaluation on him. But acquiring Peyton Watson does not make the bucks like a second round playoff team, okay, which is how you're going into the tax. So if there's a trade that makes sense where the, bucks offloads some money and then can avoid the tax and get these players. Okay, show me the trade. And I'll be very happy to entertain it. That can happen.

This is probably where you'd say third teams could be super relevant, you know, that can help you. Because, again, I think what you're probably getting to is like what Denver can't just be taken back a bunch of money. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So what we're seeing here is. Denver is $21 million over the luxury tax. They're 14 million into the second apron and they're a repeater team.

They're paying $187 million to their starting five next year, just their starting five. You know, I'm talking. I just can't see it happening. I just can't see it happening. And so, you know, Watson is in a situation. where he's not, you know, I mean, the teams with space have not offered him, at least to this point yet, an offer sheet. And he's in this misery of restricted free agency. And it's unfortunate for him.

But the nuggets are just, you know, they hold the cards at this point. And, you know, Slater, like, that's just the truth. They may hold the cards, but it's not like a super appealing hand considering, like, you know, their financial constraints and their relationship with Peyton Watson, which, you know, we'll see where that necessarily goes. Like, I agree, obviously, like, restrictive free agencies, increasingly challenged, challenging to the restricted free agents. But, like, Denver is in a bind right now, right? I mean, that's why the Spencer Jones offer sheet, while small in it, you know, it to a degree was a very interesting offer sheet from a rival. of the thunder because it just further complicated Denver trying to maneuver in the second apron world with all these finances.

And again, as we both know, like the Yokic non-extension for reasons that he has quieted down, right? He still plans to be in Denver for his career. But like, this isn't necessarily the time to be making salary slashing moves as you're still long term trying to convince your franchise player to be there. But also, like it's like you said, like I wouldn't necessarily want to be paid. and watch it in this situation, but I don't think like Denver's sitting there like, man, what a, what a beautiful spot we're in. Right. Well, the one scenario, scenario that has happened that is somewhat interesting has been floated. And I don't know who to give the proper credit to. I've been overseas. I'm not trying to, to screw somebody over and steal them. I apologize, whatever, whatever, is the idea that they could sign and trade.

him to Denver, I'm sorry, to Milwaukee, and get back Jaime Haquez. Now, whether that's something that's realistic or not, Jaime Haikas makes $6 million in the last year of his rookie deal. Again, depending on what Peyton Watchman signed for, Milwaukee still has a potential tax problem, but at least that's the kind of thing where I could not reject it out of hand, because is getting a multi-positional player who, you know, who flew like Kai Mejakis for $6 million is attractive to Denver. But it's also potentially attractive to Denver to just force Watson to take his, his qualifying offer, which I think is $7 million.

Because as upsetting as it would be for Watson to have to take that, considering where the nuggets are, getting him for $7 million would be an incredible value. And that's the thing that's so difficult about this is, sure, Denver would like to get him into a contract that would make everybody happy. But Denver could get him in a contract and have him in a contract year for that amount of money. And that be the worst case scenario. Yeah, but that he's, you know, he has the implicit no trade, essentially, in that scenario.

and I assume the, you know, anytime it gets to it to qualifying offer stage, the relationship is relatively kind of like tattered. I agree most of the time. It's over. Yeah. And look, I was, I covered the Nuggets Timberwol's first round series. And, you know, they kept calling him day to day, day, day to day.

You know, maybe he'll play at some point in the series and never did. And, you know, part of the belief was, you know, this looming restrictive free agency. You know, you had Aaron Gordon at the time dragging him. himself onto the floor dealing with a calf strain and Watson was never able to get out there. So I just, you know, leading into this free agency, restricted free agency that, you know, will just generate natural sour feelings. So you're right to a degree where like, wow, Peyton Watson on that small number considering their financial situation could help for the immediate. But like, you know, as Denver tries to guide, you know, Yokic into this later

stages of his prime, I don't think that's a good result for them in general. The other problem is, is because Watson's peak form last year was for a relatively small window. Yes. The unknown combined with the financial, I think, you know, Denver is dealing with a difficult hand here, is what I'm saying. Yeah. But I would just say for everybody who is super engaged in this, because I know that there's a core amount of fan,

look, you have to be a core fan to listen to the Hoop Collective in mid-August. Like, we appreciate you, and that's why we're talking about this. when you consider what's on Watson's plate, you have to consider the salary, the overall salary positions of teams that could trade for him. Like, you know, for example, Cleveland has been attached to him.

Cleveland is trying like crazy to stay out of the second apron. That's part of what's going on with Hardin right now. It's one of the reasons he hasn't signed. And so the sign and trades, you know, situation of what it would imply for Cleveland and what they can do with Hardin, you have to look at the whole 360 degrees.

And that's one of the reasons why Watson is in hell right now. So to be continued. And, you know, I have seen lots of restricted free agencies drag out. I have not seen too many of them get done in August. Typically with a restricted free agent, you come to an agreement within the first couple days of free agency or at least you have a framework or you do it at the buzzer. Stalmates, you know, not every time.

There are examples of deals that got done in August, but most of the time, August, everybody goes on vacation, doesn't call anybody back. Yeah, talk about the buzzer. I dealt with one last year that, that bled into camp, right? Remember, and it affected Al Horford and D. Anthony Mountain. I'm obviously talking about the Comingus situation last year. They couldn't go to Media Day. They couldn't attend the first day of practice. And I'm not, you know, we'll see if,

if this Watson situation heads towards that or Jalen Durant is very interesting to watch, right? You know, when does that? I don't think the sign and trades really on the tail for Jailen Durant. At least I haven't heard of it yet. Detroit has, like, you know, nixed that idea completely. The King, for example, would have ended. would remain very interested in Jalen Dern in a side and trade scenario, but Detroit is just not.

I think if Detroit showed a will need this to do a sign and trade for Jail and Duren, there'd be a number of teams calling, but they're just not. Very true. But anyway, all right, before we go Slater, Don Nelson passed away.

We're doing this on Sunday. Don Nelson passed away. 86 years old. Many people are going to have many things to say about Don Nelson. We're not going to say all of it here. I was supposed to have McMahon on this podcast, but I literally got the day wrong.

Like, literally got the day wrong because McMahon is at a family event in the South Pacific. And I told him that this podcast was happening on Monday morning. It was actually on Sunday morning. And so maybe we'll hear from McMahon later this week on Don Nelson, a guy he covered. But Don Nelson is a Hall of Famer and changed the game in many ways. And Slater, for the people in the Bay Area,

the seeds of the Warriors dynasty were planted by Don Nelson. And, you know, Larry Riley and the other folks who started drafting those players. We're talking about the Steph Curry. You're talking about the Steph Curry draft where Don Nelson, you know, look, Steph Curry did not want to go to the Warriors. The Phoenix Suns at the time were even trying to execute a trade through their GM, Steve Kerr, to get Steph Curry. Yeah, I just told the story last week, yeah. Yeah. But Don Nelson, saw something and stuff. To the point, Don Nelson has been quoted in the aftermath of saying he, he thought Steph was the second best prospect in that draft. Would it take him Blake Griffin one,

but would have taken Steph Curry to push the Warriors. As Steph even had a quote today, you know, after his passing about, you know, Don Nelson's importance in bringing Steph Curry to the warrior. So like beyond seeds of a dynasty, right? I mean, that is planting the dynasty in a lot of Well, there's so many people that are going to tell stories about him, his former players. The late Paul Silas, who was his teammate with the Celtics, told me some stories about Don Nelson. And I mean, this guy is, you know, he was a party. He lived hard. He partied.

He had great relationships with the players. You know, he, you know, Dirk Novitsky. He was obviously crucial, you know, he didn't win the championship for the Mavericks, but he more than planted the seeds there. He tilled the fields, you know, he had a big part of that championship, big part of the foundation of the Warriors. But he was honored during the 2025 finals. The Coaches Association every year honors a veteran coach. And he was honored, and he came to Oklahoma City and at a press conference

and held court for 30, 40 minutes, and it was one of the most enjoyable times I had all of the 2025 season, 24-25 season. And he was, I don't remember the exact numbers, so don't hold me the exact numbers. You're going to say he hadn't been stateside in about seven years. Yeah, and he hadn't, he said he hadn't had closed, healed, he hadn't had his shoes with a heel with a closed shoe since before COVID. Like he was wearing dress shoes because he was being. being honored. He said, you know, I haven't, I haven't anything on, but sandals or flip-flops in

five years. Yeah. I mean, for the people that don't know, lived in Hawaii post-retirement. I was in two, I was in that press conference, which as you mentioned was, it was, was enjoyable. He had the whole room cracking up, but also. Oh, my God, we could have gone on for hours. I think it was the last time he had been stateside with several years prior back at Oracle. They did something with like Stephen Jackson and Baron Davis and kind of honoring those teams. And he came over. He did another. press conference where he had, you know, Stephen Jackson in that whole room cracking up, talking about his life in Hawaii and some of his activities in Hawaii. Yeah, I mean, he was a legendary pot

smoker, although I think he said he stopped smoking in Oklahoma City. He had, I don't know what he said out, but he had moved on from it. But 86 years old lived an incredible life. There will be many tributes in the coming days. We can't do it all here, but I'd be remissed if I didn't say it. I mean, And I remember one of my memories was right near the end of his coaching time with Golden State. When there was a game in Cleveland, like mid-January, mid-December of January, was freezing outside. And he held shoot-around, and I came to shoot-around. And I remember he had this plastic bag full of cigars.

He had that in one hand, and another hand, he had a cigar holder with space for three cigars. and he shoot around was over and the guys were still shooting. And in fact, Stephen Jackson had just been traded for. I think it was his first game as a warrior that night. And that's why I went to shoot around. And they were like literally going over the offense with him. They were teaching him the plays for that night. And Nellie was like looking through each cigar and smelling it and no, that's no good at throwing it.

You know, he had like 10 in this plastic bag. He's like, oh, that's a good one. Put that in the holder. and he goes through a couple more. No, no, no. Okay. When he had three good ones, and he closed off his,

you know, his three cigar holder, he put it in his pocket. And he turned around and he goes, bus is leaving. He's like, he had his afternoon. He had his cigars for the afternoon.

He was going back to the hotel. And so, yeah. That's how Nellie rolled at the end. Last thing I'll say about him. You know, Steve Kerr won his 600th game coaching this past year. I remember doing that story, and he became only the second person ever. Steve Kerr, who had 600 wins as a coach and 600 wins as a player.

And it surprised me. The other guy who had done it was Don Nelson. I think we're talking about a lot of the management and coaching side and some of the decision making over the last several decades that has led to what we're talking about. He was a really good player too. 600. Steve Kerr has had an incredible – he's a hall of him coaching crew with 600,

Nelson had 1,300 wins. Yeah, exactly. So it's the threshold of 600 as a player and coach, but yeah, 1,300. And won a handful of championships with the Celtics as a player. Rest and peace, Nellie. All right, thank you to Jackson. Thank you to Slater.

Thank you, the rest of our producers. Thank you for watching, Let's see the hoop collective. We'll be back later this week. See if we can get McMahon on the right day. That was my fault. Talk to you later. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair.

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