Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - What’s Wrong In Cleveland? Lakers Stumble, Knicks In Trouble Without Brunson?

Episode Date: March 24, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk the Bulls’ surprising win streak of late, the Lakers’ stars returning as Western Conference seeding battles heat up, what is going wrong with the Cavs, get some injury news on Jalen Brunson, what seeds the top teams in the Eastern Conference will get, some curious comments from Wyc Grousbeck on the Celtics and preview MacMahon’s new book! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing much earlier on Sunday morning than we normally operate, but whatever it takes. Joining us from New York City, Timbontems.

Hello, everybody. Joining us from Dallas, Texas before, actually, no, where are you, McMahon? Houston, Texas. Join us from Houston, Texas, before 8 in the morning wearing a suit. It's Van McMahon. Just a sport coat, got some hoop shorts on, don't you worry. Howdy, partners. Yeah, please stop.

describing your attire after that. I'm just saying I'm impressed. You're up before 7.30 in the morning and on a Sunday and you're nicely dressed. Wendy, there are some strange things that a contract year will make a man do. We've seen that throughout the NBA. Speaking of contract here, did you guys see what Josh Giddy did on Saturday night? Oh, yes, yes, yes, almost a quadruple double. And look, we're doing this early, so a lot of games have happened on Sunday, you know, we're going to be a little bit out of the loop here. But the Bulls absolutely demolished the Lakers on Saturday night. The Lakers had their whole lineup for the first time in like at least a month.

And Josh Giddy was messing around on maybe the 15th triple double in NBA or quadruple double in NBA history. By the way, before we talk about, can I just speak about Josh Giddy, which is always, you know, I'm going to get off to the start. I mean, the man has good hair. You like to talk about those good hair guys. Because, you know, Bonn-Temps and I always like to talk about Josh Giddy. Since the trade deadline, Josh Giddy is averaging 20.3 points, shooting 51% from the field, shooting 50% from three-point line, four attempts a game.

He's basically going two for four per game. It's not Steph Curry, but, you know, it's not like he's taking 12-3s in that time. He is averaging 8, 9.2 assists, 7.9. I'm sorry, 9.2 rebound, 7.9 assists, 29. and eight on 50, 50, 83% from the foul line. Well, I mean, you remember when that trade happened, everybody asked, how did Sam Presti not get back picks in that deal? I mean, giving up Josh Giddy, former lottery pick? Yeah, look, we see teams, Bontemps, we see teams every year in March and April

make these late season runs, and you've always got to be careful because you've got to look at who they're playing and all this stuff. Bulls have won seven their last nine games. We don't have to track them like the top sixers anymore because at the deadline is part of the Zach Levine three-way trade. They got their full rights back to this year's draft pick. But they have won seven of nine bond temps. And yes, you can probably find some games in there that are not great wins, not great wins like

the Jazz. They beat the Lakers. They put up 146 on the Lakers playing their seventh game in 10 days. But there have also been out west, you know, pounding people on this trip. And, you know, some of their guys are putting up terrific numbers. I'll give Kobe White's numbers since the, since the trade deadline as well. He's averaging 24 points on 46% shooting and averaging, you know, not so great from three-point range. But Bontem's, the Bulls, something or nothing.

They're in ninth place. I mean, it's something amusing because they're doing what McMahon has said all the time that they were going to do, which is wind up in 11th place in the lottery standings. Now they made a bad trade and got back their own draft pick that was top 10 protected from the Spurs at the deadline and a deal that didn't really get them anything because they could have very easily stayed in the top 10 in the draft and not gave up Zach Levine and saw the Kings and the same deal get Zach Levine two first and five seconds from the Spurs. But I mean, I would still like to know what the Bull's plan is. and our rebuilds tears the other day, we didn't talk about it. I had the Bulls 11th out of 11 teams.

Yeah, you're right. Our tourist at the trade deadline had a rather amazing quote about the situation that the Bulls are in. I'm pulling it up really quickly. This was his quote about where they could go. I think there's different structures that you could try to get to a championship. There's two or three star players and then a lot of role players, or you could build it with nine, ten, very good players. And I think now we're leaning towards having a lot of six.

solid good players, 9, 10 that can last through a season because there's going to be injuries. I think more and more teams are doing that. I like depth, but the star-free championship contender is not a thing. Well, that's what you say when you don't have a star. That is correct. So we'll see where the Bulls wind up. They now have their draft pick. They are slated to pick 10th.

They are ninth in the lottery ahead of the absolutely cratering Miami Heat, which are a ninth in the playing things, I should say, not in the lottery. But yeah, I mean, they've had a lot of the lottery. I mean, they've had a nice run here in a meaningless stretch of the schedule, but where are the bulls going? They're not doing exactly what I said they do because what I said they didn't end up doing was sitting in the San Antonio Spurs. Fair. The 11th overall pick. So by finishing a distant third in a three-way trade with the Kings and the Spurs again for the second time.

That's right. Second time, eight months. They eliminated the possibility of sending that 11th overall pick to the Spurs. But, and you look, if you want to be like optimistic, you can say, hey, you know, Gideon, Kobe White are showing they can be a back court tandem that that works. Okay, great. They're just, Chicago has extra. And the rookie is looking, you know, he played really well last night.

It's just hard to see much upside long term for the Bulls, despite a nice little stretch here. Let's, let's toss out Matas Pazilis, who, okay, before the trade deadline. And I think that's where you got to draw the line because that's when the bulls kind of punted or tried to punt because they've been winning. He wasn't doing great. He was having sort of a classic rookie season where he wasn't playing super a lot and he wasn't shooting the ball super well. So before the trade deadline, he averaged 15 minutes a game. He averaged six points. He was shooting 44% from the field.

Since the trade deadline, he's averaging 26 points. Clearly they moved out Levine to give him playing time. He's moved into the starting one. 26 minutes, not points. I'm sorry. You're right. Big difference. Still early.

You're on 26 minutes. I've had coffee. 12 points. He's shooting just 27% on threes in that stretch. But he did make five of them. But he's averaging, okay, so he's moving the start line. He's averaging 12 points. He did have five threes in, in L.A. on Saturday.

So that was good. And so if you're a Bulls fan, you're looking at that. And considering how poorly the heat are playing behind them, you know, and look, in a one-off game, you know, maybe my name. he wins. But if you're Chicago and you're looking at the play-in, you know, they're not terribly far behind Orlando. Orlando is not playing great. In the last 10 games, they've picked up three games on the magic. There's about 12 games left. Probably not going to catch them for eight. Only two back. They're not that far. Two back? I thought they were three in Los Call. No.

No. No. Two-back. You know, I just, you know, look, we haven't talked about the Bulls that much. And when we have, it's been derisive, which, you know, I don't apologize for it. I mean, I would argue this should argue this has been and should be a derisive conversation also. I hear you, but like we got to at least look, Giddy's been playing well. The rookie showed signs. Like there are some little morsels of positivity here. Josh is going to the Bulls and trying to do this this summer. Listen, he's this, to be clear, was McMahon doing the money side.

Yeah, he's got precedent for asking for a player option, that's for sure. Well, that's the thing about the Bulls. I got one. I need one. Well, that's the thing about the Bulls. Like, you know, they didn't extend Giddy when they traded for him. Okay, fine. You know, he didn't play that much early in the season.

They made the, well, he was playing, but he wasn't playing like full starter minutes, even though he was starting. Now he is playing full minutes. He's, you know, sniffing around averaging a triple double. And now what are they going to do? And, you know, again, they had a restricted free agent last summer in Patrick Williams. Boy, boy, oh boy. Who they gave 90 million guaranteed and a player option to. Oh, wowzers.

And, you know, so. Is that working out? We'll talk about that in July. Anyway, LeBron and Ruey Hachamura came back on Saturday night. Neither of them played that great. Luca had a 29-point first half, McMahon. I tell you, he was shooting that rock. And you know what's scary?

He is going both ways on his step back and knocking him down. And both ways, it's something he'd been working on. You hadn't seen much of it. Famously, the game winner he hit over Gober in the West Finals was going back to his right. But he's doing it fairly often now. clearly has his legs under him and you know the Luke's put the ball on the hole now this vaunted lakers defense

we get a chit-chat about it they just gave up 146 to the bulls yeah bontemps they played seven games in 10 days they lost four of them and they have lost position when LeBron went down they were in second now they're in fourth by two and a half and the warriors now the warriors are missing and Steph.

I think the war survived this stretch fine. Yeah, I agree. They punted a couple of the games. They almost brought in Denver to spite. Yeah, you had to. They had six and eight. They had six and eight and I think went three and three in those games. They did.

And LeBron didn't play in any of them. They got the Warriors and the Clippers, you know, coming hot on their tail. So, uh, and they start a four game road trip. They're going out east for four games. It's not the most brutal trip in the history of the NBA. But, you know, this is the trip is Orlando Monday. Indiana Wednesday at Chicago Thursday at Memphis Saturday. Just say Chicago and India are two of the hottest teams in the East right now.

I just want to point that out. But, you know, they are in fourth place and they're right now whole, basically. So a key 10 days here for the Lakers where they actually get a couple of days off, but have to, you know, they have to win. Like they need to, they need to get back to where they were. Otherwise, they're going to lose position. And look, if you're in the West, obviously you want to stay out of the plan, which they're okay with that. But, you know, there is which side of the bracket you're on is going to be important, you know. And so it's a little bit hard to completely identify it.

But I know if Houston holds onto the two seed and you'd rather, in your picking the side of the bracket, you'd rather be on Houston side of the bracket. I mean, that's just, that's just reality, right? I'm not. Well, it's more, it's more not being on Oklahoma City side of the bracket even than being on Houston side. And yeah, I mean, it's interesting. So Denver, Nicole Yoko, I know McVans in Houston, Nicole Yoke's going to miss his four-street game with this ankle thing today. Careful. Brandon Clark is now out for the season with a PCL injury.

That was a blow. Another Saturday night, Memphis Christmas Medical Update. By the way, there was, there has not been an official Memphis Cruz's medical update release on this. But John Moran has missed four straight. and the first three, it was listed as hamstring soreness for the fourth that was changed to a hamstring strain. It sounds like somebody got an MRI is what that sounds like to me. By the way, so Denver's lost, you know, going in, this is Sunday morning, obviously, but Denver has lost a couple in a row.

Lakers have lost four to six of the last ten. Memphis has lost three in a row. And like you said, the Warriors Clippers and, right, and the Warriors Clippers and wolves have all been pretty hot. And, you know, like you said, all three of those teams, they're probably, I should even say probably. They could be okay avoiding the play in, but they're only a couple losses ahead of those teams behind them. And that's where we talked about it earlier in the week, Minnesota kicking away those games against bad teams earlier this week. Those are the kind of games where if you're trying to dig out of this hole, you can't kick away games like that. What it looks like in the West right now is whoever finishes seventh, you know, there's seven teams that, you know, there's seven teams that, you know,

you know, could look like they could do something. Whoever finished the seventh is going to be, have sort of lost that derby, and that derby is on full scale right now. Why, hold on. There's eight teams, I would argue. Yeah, I was going to say, because the clippers are,

unless you're disregarding the clippers or someone else. I am not disregarding the clippers. Okay. So, the clippers was playing as well as anybody. No, the clippers are in the west right now, really. And by the way, Houston, I was wrong.

Houston has a fairly reasonable schedule down the stretch. They've got a lead. I mean, you mentioned that these teams have fallen away. They've got a lead on the two seed. And I think right now, you have to look at Houston incredibly based on where we would have thought they were at the start of the season as the favorites to finish second in the West, which would be a remarkable accomplishment for the beginning of phase three. This one, I mean, there's no bad time for a win streak. But the win streak that they've gone on has come an incredibly good time because it's come at a time where Yolkich, had to finally sit down some games, and it came at a time where LeBron was down,

and the Lakers just took some losses. Well, and Memphis is struggling. Well, yeah, I never liked Memphis's chances to get the two. I mean, maybe you could dispute that, but you're right. You're right. But right as Memphis got JJJ back, then Jha went out. They just can't, they just can't maintain health. As of Sunday morning, just so people have a sense of it, per our projections,

obviously the Thunder are going to finish first, 67 wins. Rockets will be second with 53. Nuggets will be third. Lakers will be fourth. Grizzlies will be fifth. You have the wind projections there? How many? Yeah. Nuggets are, Nuggets and Lakers both have 50 wins. Nuggets like slightly ahead percentage-wise for third. Grizzlies fifth with 49, Warrior 6th, 48, Clippers 7th, 47 and a half, Wolves, eighth at 47. Well, and the Nuggets projections, like, tell me how much longer Joker is going to be out. And obviously I'm going to, you know, inquire about that this evening when I see the Nuggets. I wonder if this is the first time his career is it was four games in a row.

Sounds like a good thing for you to have researched before the podcast. Well, it is very early on Sunday morning. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Speaking of losing four in a row, time for Cavs Corner. And it's now time for Cavs Corner with Brian Winhorst. Oh, boy. I thought we were going to duck it, McMahon. Oh, boy.

Well, first off, let me say that the Phoenix Sons who whipped the calves on Friday night, the calves are playing in Utah on Sunday. So for all we know, by the time this post, they'll be back on the right side of the column, but not. That is by both teams' missions. Right. If not, that's a different story. But the calves have lost four games in a row.

And let me just start real quick. The Sons, Durant had 42 on Friday night. and Beal's been out during the streak with a hamstring. The Sun's offense is churning, which is what we've seen throughout the season. The Sun's defense has not been there. The Suns have played better defense in this track. It's still not been great. They're not shutting teams down.

But they're getting for the first time, really, this is their best streak they've had in two plus months. And they're getting some level of consistent play at both ends, which they haven't been able to achieve. Well, what got the next? turned around. I think there was a story written by yours truly. And I'm not going to take credit for it, just like you wouldn't give me credit for the story. It was all about the Ishbia quotes, among others. But I've called the man Microwave Matt before. I'm going to call him motivational Matt now. When he said he believes in that team, baby, they saw that, they read those quotes. I don't know. I haven't been in the Sun's locker room since. Perhaps there's some printouts of

some of those motivational quotes from Matt Isbia. But, hey, the man said, you think people are still printing stuff out these days. The man said he wasn't giving up on this season as well as things looked. And here they are turning things around and they've managed to pull even with the tiebreaker with those Dallas Mavericks. AD's coming back though. Sun's still got a tough schedule down the stretch. Ooh, we've got to fight for that 10 seed in the West, baby.

Well, the Mavericks have put together some victories and all their guys are playing. So like, you know, you're you're doing a little tongue and cheek there, that is something. No, I'm serious. They're hanging in there and obviously the suns are trying to get the 10 seed. Yeah, the Mavs actually had a win over the Pistons the other night at home. And, you know, not only do the Mavericks have home court advantage, but the Pistons were coming off of a lengthy stay in Miami.

I'm not sure that ate of their cause. But yeah, old J.B. Bickerstaff, you know, plus 25 wins. The Pistons are going to win three times as many games and then some as they did last year. if Cavs Corner doesn't turn it around, old J.B. is going to zoom right past Kenny Ack and send for that coach of the year, baby. You think so? You mean Adoka should be on ballots. I'll say that.

Yeah, it's going to be an interesting race for that. I will say this. The Mavericks have a significantly easier schedule than the suns coming down the stretch, including for Dallas, two games left with Brooklyn and a game left with the Raptors. By the way, Brooklyn, whatever we've said about them during the season, their Captain Tank job has been immaculate over the last couple of weeks. They've played 10 consecutive games that have gone into clutch time, last five minutes, five points or less.

So every single night you watch them, they are playing highly competitive basketball. And they have lost eight of those 10. Wow. And here they are sitting right there, fifth in the lottery standings, right above, right above who? The top sixers. The top sixers, baby. You race for that fifth spot in the eastern. Why I say fifth, you know, the inverse standings, the fifth pick standings is a drama of its own.

I mean, the heat ain't going to catch them, but the heat have moved up to eight. The heat had fallen so hard. Udana's Hassam was on NBA today the other day, praising them for playing hard all 48 minutes. Like, dude, the guy who was the enforcer of paragraph in the paint heat culture is passing out orange slices and participation ribbons on national TV after they lost their, I don't know how many straight game. The paragraph in the paint is beautiful. Well, and I can say that now because I'm no longer in the same city as you do, so.

Yeah, I would mess with it. You're not saying that in LA. Phoenix, Phoenix has two games left with the Celtics. The Mavericks have two games left with the Nets. That's how I can define the two way the schedules. Now, when are those Celtics games, though? Because we all, that's, yes, of course. course. I haven't done that.

They're before the last two days of the season. Okay. So they're before. One is tomorrow. Or not tomorrow, this week. Way Kaz's corner is going, the Celtics, the one scene might be in play. Listen. Oh, Kaz can't turn this thing back around, baby. Phoenix also has two games with the Bucks, who are. Well, as we've talked about, Phoenix has, you know, if not the hardest schedule.

They and the Mavs in our projection system are currently projected to finish tied. So we'll see where that. I would go to the suns. So I'll just make it very simple. The fourth hardest schedule, MAVs have the 10th hardest schedule per our stuff. Just by winning percentage, the sons have the hardest,

but go on. It's hard to know who's going to play in all these games, and I'm not going to try to guess right now. I'll just say this way. The Sons have 11 games left, and 10 of them are against teams that have winning records. Okay? That's, I mean, bottom line.

All right. Back to the Cavs. Uh-oh. I thought he was going to just go right by the Cavs, man. I thought we were going to mention it. Go to the quick little diversion to the Sons, and then just glide.

right by. They have lost four games in a row. We don't like to interrupt Wendy on this pod. We kept in a row. Sorry, Wendy, go ahead. In those four games in a row, in those four games, they are DFL in three point percentage defense. This has been a little bit of their bugaboo during the, you know, one of the, um, uh, the flaws in

the team is that they tend to get a little. And it's been obviously through much of the season, they've managed it. But there's been times and stretches in the season where they just haven't defended the three well. And, you know, sometimes it's been a, you know, I listen to the experts like Pelton and Kurt Goldsbury and Tom Havistrow on three point percentage defense. Sometimes there's a, there's a happenstance. You can play the same defense and one team can shoot great. So you got to be careful about looking at small sample sizes. So, and this is all four games on this losing streak, but they have a, they have a bugaboo about not getting out the three point shooters.

when they're not fully locked in, which they haven't been on this stretch. And they're 30th in the league in this stretch in the three-point percentage defense. That's been a big thing. And look, this is Donovan Mitchell's last four games. He had a hamstring or a groin injury, and he missed a game.

But his last, here's his shooting percentages. Actually, well, here's the shooting percentages since the groin injury. 9 of 28 and a loss to Orlando. 5 of 18 and a loss in the Clippers. 8 of 17, which qualifies as a very good game right now. in sack two of 18. Oh.

Well, these are the numbers since the All-Star break. Yeah, go ahead. The Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland, which, no disrespect to the three-point defense, which is very heavily influenced by variance, I think this is the problem for the Cavs overall. Since the All-Star break in 13 games, Donovan Mitchell shooting 39% from the field and 28% from three on eight attempts per game. Before the All-Star break, you're shooting 45 and 39.

Since the All-Star break, Darius Gar-Raeus. shooting 39% from the field and 31% from three on seven and a half attempts per game. Before the All-Star break, you're shooting 49.8 and 43 from the field. That is the problem with the Cavs. Their two-star guards for the past month have been way below where they were the prior four months of the season. And that is, that's the thing I think you have to monitor going forward, especially with Donovan, because we have seen in the past when he's had these core muscle injuries, it's given him a lot of trouble. And, you know, obviously, then losing three or four games in March with a bazillion game lead in the East, I'm not really too concerned about.

But extended struggles for those guys going into the playoffs, that is something I think that's a little more concerned. Yeah, you know, Donovan hadn't played well since he had that awesome performance against the Celtics, you know, when he had 41 on them. I'm a little bit, I guess a little bit surprised simply because, like, the Caz very intentionally dialed back their minutes. And, you know, Donovan's leading the team in minutes averaging 31 a game, which is a, you know, not a high number. And, you know, the load on him hasn't been nearly what the load was last year. You know, if he's got to take some more time off, like, they still have a five-game cushion. And I'm not going to, their defense has stunk. Like, right now the only teams that are worse defensively than them in this stretch, well, I got off the thing.

but it's like three tanking teams over these last four games, including the top sixers. But, you know, I don't think this is like Donovan is completely out of gas or something. You know, it's just got to find a way to, you know, get right and get his rhythm right. And I still, you know, the other thing is, quite frankly, they get to have a warm up series, you know. Like, it's not like they've, oh, you've got to be peeking when the playoffs start. No, they get a buy. Like, they get a first round by. Well, Orlando is a possible opponent.

And they would have a favorite, but. These playing teams are terrible. We can't be, if we're talking, if we're going to talk about the Cavs as a serious championship caliber team, which Cavs Corner has established as the position. We can't be going off. Orlando could be a problem. Yeah, this sub-500 team.

I am just saying, though, like, physical play is, that is a deficit. They should get a nice little rest between the first and second rounds. If things go the way you think they would go. Yes, I would agree with you. I mean, look, let's just let's see where those two guys are at over the next month. Like, I think that, that's one of the more interesting and important questions in the league over the next few weeks. Like, you know, is this a 10-game blip or has something shifted a little bit? Because if those guys are not going to be shooting 40 plus percent from three on high volume,

which was the thing that was really driving the calves forward, then the whole formula that's, just starts to look a little different. Right. The calves have generally on a night-to-night base, at one point this year, I think they had seven guys shooting over 40% from three-point range on the season. And that was not like in December.

That was like in late February. So you're not going to have seven guys shoot over 40%. So some of this is coming back to the pack. But as you said, Bontemps, one thing to come back to the pack and have a bunch of guys shooting 38%. It's another thing when Donovan's shooting 28 and Garland's shooting 31, and they're taking 15, 16 a game.

and then all of a sudden the math starts to get wonky, especially if you're not going to defend the three, which is kind of what's come together. Now, I have a long rule that I've, I've, you know, just developed and stuck to over 20 years. You never evaluate a team on a long West Coast road trip. You know, it just happens. Just, you know, like, or East Coast road trip.

And I'll present the Clippers. The Clippers went on East Coast Road trip, got pounded regularly. They've come back and played in normal living conditions, and they've responded. And especially in March. you know, and especially when they've got a comfortable lead. Correct.

In their conference. So, like, yes, Cavs Corners hit a little rough patch here. This happened to the Nuggets two years ago. The Nuggets were pounding everybody the year they won the championship, and they had a stretch in March where they were just very, very average. And I think the Warriors, even three years ago when they won the title, you know, they were like dominant throughout the whole season. I think they had a stretch in March. I think Steph might have gotten hurt. The stretch of the schedule.

for good for teams playing well or poorly is always pretty wonky. Well, I learned this lesson in 2011 when the Mavericks took a West Coast trip. It was March. I don't know. Maybe already March, but it was in March. And they got completely blown out by the Lakers. And I don't remember exactly what Cuban said, but he said something explosive while I was nagging him on the way to the bus after the game. And then they went up to the bay.

And this is when the Warriors stunk. and got beat by a bad Warriors team. And then they went up to Portland and got handled by Portland. And I remember overreacting saying, you know, the Mavericks, like they're clearly not a contender. And, you know, a few months later, there was a parade in downtown Dallas. So I'm not saying that a March swoon guarantees success,

but it certainly isn't like a reason. It doesn't guarantee failure. Yeah. That was the year of Bontem's where McMahon was like the only person on the ESP ecosystem that was picking the Mavericks to win the finals. And I didn't know McMahon very well. It was my first team. The Homer just so that everybody thinks of the last. And I was like, I've returned to my roots. According to angry folks on Twitter, you know, on. I'm somehow, Nico's mouthpiece, despite the fact that I've said many times, I've talked like 50-something

executives and scouts and not one and said it was a good trade for the Mavericks, but go on. Yeah, let me just say, I could say a lot of things about you. Nico's mouthpiece ain't one. There was some interesting injury news that came out. Wait, hold on. I thought we were going to talk about the roots of our friendship in 2011. There's going to be a sweet tale here. Well, I will say this, Bontemps, I've never told you this story.

But, like, you know, it was my first year with ESPN. I knew who Tim McMahon was, but I'd never met him. Oh, I knew who Wendy was. He was a big deal, baby. Going into that. He was already a big deal. Going into that. Buzz cut windy at the time.

Go on. So, you know, reqw. We had the heat index, which was our Miami-based ESPN operation. And ESPN. ESPN Dallas, which was the first ESPN regional site.

And so, like, during the finals, like, we were doing some stuff. Like, we were specifically, like, recording some stuff. I have a vivid memory of us standing out on the bay next to the arena McMahon recording videos and things at the time. So, anyway,

Those two weeks working side by side, you know, obviously we met before that, but we, you know, we spent those two experts and side by side. And then the lockout happens. Okay. So then the next, the start of the next season is messed up. I did come to Dallas for Ring Night. Oh, yes. When the, when the heat blew the mads out on Christmas. Yes. There was a Christmas start for the season. And yeah, they started the season and they brought the heat in there. And that was, well, David's turn was there and he had just finally gotten through the lockout. And he was sort of a little loopy. That's another. story for another day. But, you know, it was a busy day for McMahon. I don't think I talked to him

much that day. I flew in day up because it was Christmas day. Wendy didn't talk to me much Miami or Dallas during the final day. Go on. All right. So it was, it was just because I was so busy. And he was busy. He was covering ring night. So the season goes along. I don't see the Mavericks again. It's a reduced schedule. I don't see him again. And I don't think I communicated with McMahon during that season. But of course, I worked side by side with him. So side by side is a little extreme. Go on. So the following year, acknowledge your presence, maybe. It's the first, the season, now the 2012, 13 seasons beginning. And we have our annual get-together, pre-season get-together in Bristol.

I got to say, this is quite the tale over multiple years. I know, and it's not going to have that big of a payoff. So we get together for the social on the first night. And we all come together. And I go, hey, how's it going? He goes, hi, Tim McMahon. like he was introducing himself to me. I literally don't think

Winnie had ever talked to me before that is not true. We worked together during the finals. I believe you. I don't think you actually like made eye contact. It's not true. I'm not going to look at the ski on. I'm going to look at the camera. Let me say this.

Better things to do. Like if Jan Maheemi met LeBron, then Jan would probably say, you know, former MacCup matters. Mr. James. Mr. James. John Maheemey. LeBron.

It's good to see you. King. King. I'm Yomahimi. I don't know if you remember me. I was kind of a Yomahimi at the time. I had to reevaluate that. At the time? I mean, I've worked my way.

I'm a starter now. He's a J.J. Baria. He's now a proveste. Me Amigo Jose Juan. I had old old Jose Juan came through and did some games on Mavs TV this year. Oh, so? Hey, still ain't tall enough to ref a game, but he's doing well. don't judge me on my time with the heat index.

No, you were very, very like above the fray. Like us, normal little city slick. The idea that we hadn't met is preposterous. No, we had met, but we had not, like, you had not made icon. We had, you had not like acknowledged. There's no way that's. You sort of nodded at him. I'm acknowledging it now.

I mean, he kind of like, you know, Wendy kind of did the little, you know, like little little shit. Look, you had picked the matter. Mavericks. It was hard to... I think, hey, I know I wasn't the only one. Because my man Steiney was not picking against Dirk at the time. Fair.

Also, the funny thing is about that. This is part of the reason I stopped picking because there's, like, it's a no-in situation. But you know who I picked in the first round that year? The Portland Trailblazers to beat the Dallas Mavericks. Oh, my God. I think what happened was I picked against them the first two rounds and I said, well, hell with it. What happened was you saw them play in March. and you were like, this team can't win a championship.

They're never getting out of the first round. There was some injury news on Saturday night. The Knicks gave an update on Jalen Brunson, and they said he'll be evaluated in a week, which is in other words is he's not close. Yeah. They did eke out a win over the Wizards at home. They let it get close. I'm making a joke because they were up by 30, and they let it get down to like six.

Yeah. And then they pushed it back out to like 17. but they're back from they had this long road stretch you know Madison Square Garden gets used a lot in March and so they're always going on these road trips but they went I think they played seven out of eight on the road and you know most of it without Jalen Jalen got hurt in the first game of that and they've just been up and down Towns had another good game but they're sort of in sconce bond temps um you've been so focused on going to Boston and Philly for two separate reasons. You haven't spent much time around the Knicks recently,

especially because they've been on the road. That's sort of not true. I was at this barn burner on Saturday. Oh, you were there last night. I was there. Yeah, I was there. I was there where I thought for a moment that the tank and wizards were going to potentially be the third tanking team

to beat the Knicks in a week after they lost at the Spurs and Hornets. And then... Oh, wow. Oh, that would have been something. Yes, that would have been a very bad week. And then the Knicks reestablished their position in the fourth quarter. Yeah. And so to the Wizards.

And so to the Wizards. You got a good game on. We've won too much lately. It's now neck and neck for number one in the lottery odds. It doesn't matter for like the odds of the number one pick, but it does matter in terms of, you know, that they're six and fall. Yeah. Yeah.

The Knicks are going to be the third seed. And they do have what looks like. There is a stretch of five out of six at home. The Knicks have made it a little interesting, Brian. They're standing-wise. But they've got they've got a cushion. They've got a three-game cushion still. They've got a three-game cushion, but Jalen Brunson is not going to be evaluated for another week.

That's the injury news that came out Saturday night. He's not going to get looked at. Pay attention. Well, he's not going to get, he's not going to get reevalued until at least next Saturday, which I would say means he's probably not going to come back for a couple weeks. He maybe plays a few games at the end of the season as a result of that. But, you know, there's enough of a window there where you can at least say if the Knicks do scuffle a bit more. There are only three losses up on Indiana.

There are four losses up on Milwaukee. Yes, those teams have to get hot. But like I said, the Knicks just lost San Antonio and Charlotte. They are not playing great. So I think they'll finish third, but I wouldn't say it's a lock. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. The Pacers keep pulling out crazy wins. Like they keep pulling out these wild comebacks.

Halliburton hits a wild three. Obie Toppin, Nimhard. I mean, like, hold on. Here's a good one from our guy's stats, Williams. The Pacers, now, they won a close one against the Nets. what, a couple nights ago, but before that, the Pacers were the first team since at least 2000 to win four times in a six-game span when they trailed in the last 20 seconds of the fourth quarter in each win. And some of those, like against the Mavericks, they came back from like

seven down in the final minute. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, what do we take from that? Do we take from that the Pacers are going to keep winning at an 800% clip? No, I take that the Pacers are going to be the first team. in consideration for the Cajonis fact. Can a team be? You're the boss. The rules change every month. I've got to do some considering.

I've got a, we've got a, we've got a Bricktown consultant. Maybe I'll call it, ask about that. I see. Okay. Well, the Pacers, I will say this. I do not, I know this is sort of a nebulous thing that somebody can say. Nebulous. I don't want to see them in the playoffs.

They're a team that beating them four times is going to be difficult. It's going to be their style of play and they have depth and Paliburton's looked more like himself. Yeah, he's had a string. I think he's had five straight games of 10 plus assists, something like that. Yeah, but he's banged up now. I mean, now he's banged up again. Well, he's back.

He came back on Saturday. But anyway, just, you know, I watched, you know, I spent the, the week with them in Paris this year. Oh, did you? We, we. Yeah, I enjoyed it. But, you know, I spent a bunch of time with them last year in the playoffs. And it's just watching the way they play.

They have a wearing effect. You know, they wore the Knicks to the nub in that seven-game series. And I watched them wear the spurs out in two games and three days. By the end of that game, the spurs were tired. So they have a way of wearing the teams out the way they play. So let's point that. And look, the Knicks are still protected to finish third by a couple games for our stuff. I think they are still the favorites to finish third, obviously.

but again, we talked about the calves having a concerning stretch. I mean, with Jaylen Brunson out, the Knicks have, not surprisingly, not look great, and he's not coming back seemingly in the near future. So let's see how the Knicks have two games left against each other. So we'll see how those two, how those games play out. By the way, Wednesday, interesting game coming up for you, Bontem. Are you going Wednesday night? The Clippers are in town?

I will be at the Clippers next game. Check in on those red hot clippers. Clippers are going to be out east for minimum. going to see them a couple times the thing yeah i just saw them bont tempt you are you on uh on maths the mabs beat for me these next couple nights little nets nicks back to back yep i'll be uh i'll be on hand for the uh for both mav's games finally if i haven't seen them since the trade deadline went a lot well i saw right after the trade but i saw him right after the trade but i haven't seen it still in i was talking to somebody from the clippers earlier this season and they were

like you know our schedule really hasn't improved that much with getting our own arena because they thought it was like going to be a world of difference. And, you know, they got rid of having to play Saturday and Sunday afternoon games or they have to play like these half back to backs where play Friday night and then like Sunday at noon. But they're like, I don't think that the league really adjusts our schedules that much. We're still trailing, we're still like on the same schedule as the Lakers. And this is an example. The Lakers come on an East Coast trip as if Staples Center is being used for like, I'm sure it's being used for something. And the Clippers are on East Coast. are too. Yeah. So anyway, before we go, I just want to point, you know, we talked at the last

podcast, the, uh, the Celtic sale had just happened, like within a, like an hour or two. I just want to point out some interesting quotes from Wickruzbach, who's the Celtics governor, and apparently will remain the Celtics governor. That's what the, uh, the statement from Bill, Bill Chisholm said. We will see. We'll just put it that one. All right. Well, if the statement from Bill Chisholm said it, that's, you know, a little bit. We will. We will. We will. We will. We We will see. All right. Anyway, so WIC went on WEEEI, Powerhouse Boston radio station, and gave an interview talking about the sale and what's going forward.

And, you know, he hasn't given interviews in a while because the team's been for sale. And again, the thing about the Celtic sale, it's more interesting than the average team sale because of what their payroll looks like going forward. next year, including luxury tax, approaching 500 million, the highest payroll in the history of world sport. So here's what he said on WEEEI. It's not the luxury tax bill. It's the basketball penalties. The new CBA was designed by the league to stop teams from going crazy.

They decided it's not good enough to go after the wallets because fans can be like, find someone who can afford to spend $500 million a year, whatever it is, which there are a couple of NBA owners who probably can do that. The basketball penalties, this is quote, the basketball penalties mean that it's even more of a premium now to have your basketball general manager be brilliant and lucky because you have to navigate. You can't stay in the second apron. Nobody will. I predict for the next 40 years of the CBA, no one is going to stay in the second apron more than two years. Matt Ishpia says, hold my beer, baby. Well, this, I would say a couple things. One, I would say that if you're going to eventually make moves to save money.

It is a lot better to frame it. It's not saving money. But for other reasons, I would say that. In this case, it's saving money and the penalties. Yeah. I mean, the other thing I would say is that, you know, there rarely have been in the time that the league has been operating in the manner it is currently. There have been very few times or more than a couple teams have been over this sort.

of threshold of money at a time anyway. So I don't think, like, yeah, I don't think there's going to be more than it. Most teams are going to spend a year or two over it and then duck back down. I think that's how it's going to work. But I also think that's how it's always worked. Let me ask this. Yeah. Technically, and this is the follow-up question, and maybe Wickel get asked this at some point,

is this the second year that the Celtic, is he deeming this the second year? or is you deeving next year the second year because technically the second apron existed last year. It didn't have the full penalties in it. They phased the penalties in. But technically, this is the Celtic second year in the second apron. Well,

we will find out. By the way he is saying that, it's if you're, again, if you're just focused on the basketball penalties, which we'll see, it's the first year to your point. Now,

I will, maintain the same thing that I've said the whole time, which is that I think if the Celtics win the title this year, I find it very hard to believe this team will go on cost-saving measures, however they want to frame them, when they have a chance to be the first team to three-peat since the Lakers 25 years ago. I think if the Celtics don't win the title, like they fall short in any fashion, I would suspect then that financial, looking at things at least through some financial prism will be on the table. Now, the Celtics can make a move to save some money and still be an awesome team.

They don't have to disassemble the team. They don't have to disassemble the team. There's a lot of ways that can look as things go forward. But I think that will be, that's obviously going to be a huge question this summer as to what they're going to do. And I just still believe that if they've won two in a row, I don't think this guy's going to assume the team in July and assume control the team in July and then have it go. Well, yeah, now we're going to start saving money. I've seen owners do wild things in their first year and short. That's all I'm going to say about saying.

I would just say that, yes, structurally, that makes sense. But we've never seen anybody have to deal with this kind of payment before. And also, I want to be clear, not breaking up Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. You know, those guys are staying together. The question is, can they keep Al Horford? Can they keep Chris Epps-Pors-Poorzingis? Can they keep Derek Lyd? Does the New Holiday get moved?

Yes. like these are the questions. So, and again, it's not like the most important thing in the NBA, but they might be winning, they might be winning their second title here with a team that's beautifully been put together. And all those guys we just mentioned, you know, are obviously guys who can help contenders. Also, we'll say this. I think I don't 100% know, but I've asked. And I think Brad Stevens has two years left on his contract.

Brad almost never speaks to the media. He is very cautious with all of that. He keeps all of that under wraps. His agent is his wife. Mine too. Rightly so. But I think he's got two years on his contract. I would highly advise, and I'm sure that this is going to be on the table,

I would highly advise the Celtics to lock Brad Stevens up because he is a very valuable piece of what they've got going. Wendy sees a $6.1 billion price. tag is trying to wheeze those way into a high-price consultant role. Look at this. All right. Thank you, gentlemen, for doing this early. I've got a travel day from Ohio back home. Thank you to Jackson for getting up early. Thank you for watching listening to the Hocke. And we talk to you next week. Right after Luke Dodgich and the Curse of Great News is available in bookstores and everywhere you can buy books. This is amazing. It's Tuesday. Release date is Tuesday.

Not to toot my own horn, but hey, hey, hey, I've just lost track of this. That's okay. Don't worry. I'll plug it. myself, baby. We've only been plugging it for months, so. It's a, it's a really gigantic accomplishment, McMahon. Real talk. Is that your name? I can't remember. Have we met? Hey, you know me now because you've got a quote right there on the cover of baby. We've got a collective plug on the book cover, too. So it's like a mutually beneficial thing. Spectacular. Well, listen, if you think that you like McMahon's quips and dry humor and cutting analysis on this podcast. Way do you get a load of him after he's been in Slovenia tracking down

Luca Donchich history, because there's a lot of that in here. And really, in a real talk here, maybe there's been stuff written in Slovenian about Luca. There's never been anything written about Luca's background. This is the most complete text that's been done. Obviously, McMahon's been there for all of his exploits on the court, but McMahon went to find his roots and spent a lot I don't even know how you got some of those Slovenia. I got some of this information on the Slovenia, but you went over there and got it done. And if you're a Luca fan,

and I know right now, there may be more Luca fans and there are MAVS fans. And there's a lot of new Luca fans. Probably. This is not just a book about Luca and the Mavericks. This is a book about Luca and where he came from and how he became a simple player and his rise and his dynamics. So if you're a Luca fan,

you have to have it. I don't know how you, I don't know how you, And again, real talk, I'm not just saying this because McMahon thinks he's going to, like, make a bunch of money on his book. He's already made all the money he's going to make. Like, I told him that. Like, the money that you get up front is what you're getting, even if you're on the bestseller

list, you know, unless you sell movie rights, which if you do, we'll have another conversation. So I'm not even, I don't even really, it's, I'm not even trying to sell it for him. I'm just telling you, because I've read it. So that's, that's, that's my, that's my commentary. It's not even a pick. Well, that's a much better plug than the don't buy the book chance at the February protest outside of the other than the Abraham Center. So I appreciate that, Wendy. All right.

You want to weigh in? Oh, no, Wendy's got to go catch a flight. I'm very proud of you for getting the book done. It's a great book. Everybody should obviously read it. Yeah, it was still being written like two weeks ago. Oh, guy. The guy's been working his tail off on it for a long time. It's a great book. It's a great read. Like I said, very proud of you for getting it done. Yeah, there's a plot twist at the end, not to not to support. All right. We'll talk. to you in a couple days in the hoop collective adios amigos had to tee it back up for you