Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Why Did The Jaylen Brown Trade Happen Now? + Is The Lakers’ New Big 3 Enough For Luka?

Episode Date: July 3, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim MacMahon and Vince Goodwill to break down the shockwaves around the league from the Jaylen Brown trade including a discussion about why the Celtics felt like they needed to do this now. Then, we tackle the Lakers’ move to bring Walker Kessler to LA and debate if the price was too high and if this improves the team enough for Luka. Finally, we talk about how much better Jaylen Brown makes the 76ers and if they could be a destination for LeBron before wondering what the approach is this offseason in Detroit. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome to the HOOC Collective podcast. We're still talking about the NBA. Joining me from New York City is Vince Goodwell. What up, though, Wendy? What up, though? I guess we should say that it's Thursday afternoon. It only feels like mid-August. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, home of Santi Aldama,

which we're going to lead the podcast with, Van McMahon. Howdy, partners, that's two straight pods. You've made that Santi-Al-Dama joke, but they're all running together now. You got that kid. You got that. I want the appropriate level of enthusiasm, Wendy. We talk about the NBA. All right.

We'll have you do it next time. I have a public service announcement. When we say what teams are thinking, sometimes we're going to say what our opinion is. But when we say what teams are thinking, we have to be grownups and not destroy the messenger. Holy hell. Oh, have you been destroyed? Like being Bobby, it's been a rough few days. Well, and again, I thought you have to act like adults here.

act like adults. There's all adults listening. The kids are not listening to this. They're on, they are not on this platform. We're, we've got a lot of IG stuff now. We got some YouTube shorts. The kids might catch little nuggets here and there. I know it doesn't. I know, I know, I know it's not going to matter. I think we're TikTok and even. Are we TikToking, Jackson? Yes, we're TikToking. We're TikToking. We should not be TikToking. No, the kids love us. Yeah. How do you do fellow kids? My God, are people in their feelings. And I mean in the league. I know in the world. I got that. That's what happens. But my. God are people in these feelings, Vince, about this trade? Holy. Are they in their feelings about this?

This is, this is going to be, this is good. This is what do you call it? A tipping point, an inflection point. A pinch point. What else? What else we got? There's going to be a before and after crossing the Rubicon. This is a big one. There's going to, this is before and after events because man, oh man, am I getting double barreled from both ends on this one? Who, Boy. Well, I was recording a podcast with Carmelo Anthony in Brooklyn yesterday. Oh, name dropping. Cool. Never heard of them. No, not to say that. But when it came through, it was, wait, he got traded to where for who? Like, it didn't make sense, right? And I won't say it still doesn't make sense now. But when you add up some of the things and it's hard to add up these things and for it to make sense to people, A, the Celtics have not gotten, have. Won a grand total of one first round playoff series in the last two years. That is point one. Point two, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum are increasingly getting more expensive as time goes on.

So you have to operate with some prudence and how you are building this team. Three, there is new ownership around said team. Four, we don't know the relationship between Brown and Tatum and all we can do is speculate. And finally, Jalen Brown had a fantastic season on paper last year. And the Celtics clearly did not believe that was sustainable in a different environment come this season, come this coming season. And they didn't believe that Jalen Brown would be able to slide back into a supporting road or if he would want to slide back into a supporting role, assuming Jason Tatum is all the way back into himself. Like it's a million things, right? part of it. I think in my

viewpoint, McMahon, you disagree with me if you want, but if I had to boil it down to one paragraph and I mean, there's a lot of nuance required here and I realize that this is not a time for nuance because people are in their feelings about this. If I could

boil it down to one paragraph, it's this. I don't believe that the league doesn't think Jalen Brown is a very good player. You hear what I just said? I don't believe that the league does not believe Jalen Brown is a very good player. What I think is the league believes he's not a 57 million dollar player. And that is asking for a lot of comprehension because there are people

who not only are defending Jalen Brown, but defending the concept of the I-Test versus analytics. Yes, there are all kinds of analytics, but in the era where there's essentially a hard salary cap, which is essentially what we have with the second apron, okay, there's a lot more stress on you performing to your level of a player. And so this is the thing. Peyton Pritchard makes $7 million. Nobody in their right mind would ever say that Peyton Pritchard is a better basketball player than Jalen Brown. In an era where the aprons mean everything and dollars are defined and in efficiency of dollars defines your team, Peyton Pritchard is viewed as more efficient with his contract than Jalen Brown is. It doesn't mean anybody on the planet thinks that Jalen Brown

is not a significantly better player than Peyton Pritchard. Okay. But when you look at one guy makes $7 million and produces this and it results in this on the scoreboard. And one guy makes 57 million and produces this and it results as this on the scoreboard. There's a differential there. And so that's what people are talking about when they're talking about quote unquote value. All right. And so this is, this is where we get into big time trouble. The language that the decision makers in the league are talking about and the people who are deciding whether to keep Jalen Brown or trade Jalen Brown, or trade Jalen Brown or trade for Jalen Brown or not trade for Jalen Brown. They are looking at this term of value. And people who are love basketball and want to watch it and don't want to get into the

spreadsheets, they see Jalen Brown and say, my God, what a valuable player. Not even valuable, most valuable player of the final. Right, right, right. Okay. And we are having two different conversations using the same language. And so basically what this is a challenge is, can we understand that it's two different conversations? Right now, we cannot. And I don't know if we're going to get there. But that's where we are at. And that is where the stress is. And that is what is going to make, frankly, the storyline of Jalen Brown next year be one of the most compelling you could possibly imagine in the league. No question. And look, I had a a primary decision maker for another team in the league, say, if you make 60 million, this is what you're worth in a trade.

If he made 40, every single team in the league would have been lining up for Jalen, even with, you know, all the other issues. And look, obviously, it reached a point where, for whatever reasons, the Boston Celtics believed they needed to move on from Jalen Brown. and whether that is, you know, I don't want to get, I don't even want to get into the blame game on that. But they reached that point where they believed they needed to move on from Jalen Brown. I'm pretty sure they reached that point

before they put him in an offer for Janus. And then after that, they just had to find the best deal. I think that there's plenty of room to criticize the approach that the Celtics took in terms of they went out swinging for sky-high value. they went out trying to trade Jadam Brown at the value of the six most valuable player in the league, which is what he was in the MVP voting

when the league does not perceive him to be the league in terms of the people who are making decisions on trade, the league does not perceive him to be the sixth most valuable person in the league, the sixth most valuable player, because in part of his contract. And then this is such a like hot-bun issue, but the advanced analytics are not favorable to Jetham Brown. I had another GM basically say, look.

Uh-oh, here we go. Look, be careful. I'm saying, be careful what you're about to say. That's all I'm going to say. Like, you know, listen, it's our job to explain things, whether we're cosigning, not cosine or whatever. When there's something like this that confuses the hell out of basically the media, all the fans, all of our listeners, like you saw this trade and let's be.

honest, the initial reaction was, what the bleep? And, you know, this other GM says, this is a classic case if the credit goes to the guy who scores, but they're not driving team success. There's guys like this all over the league. The difference is he's not at 40 million, and like

a Brandon Ingram, he's at 60 million. And then, look, he's rounding up. And he's going to be at 60 soon. Right. And then it gets into the CBA and the cap rules and the apron. And he says, it's really hard to tie up that much money in your salary cap for one player unless they're truly generational

and he's not even close to that. I also said the league is getting smarter now and here's a thing. The dumb teams are the cheap teams. So the Celtics weren't even in a position to try to capitalize on a quote unquote dumb team because they're not bringing in a guy who has 180 something million over the next three years left on his deal and who wants an extension off of that, off of those numbers. And that's the key thing there. He was, is going to be up for an extension. Two years, $140 million. The reason that you see more trades and not free agency nowadays is because the trade market is free agency. And if you have not made a decision that your franchise player is worth that extension, then you have to trade them. If your franchise

player has said, I'm not taking this extension, then you have to trade him. This was coming sooner this summer rather than later, even if the Yannis stuff did not happen. This was looming, right? And the Celtics, the problem is that the order of operations of the way that things happen present really bad optics. If someone that came to you and said,

the Celtics traded Jalen Brown, you know, without all the noise, the Celtics need to get off Jalen Brown. They got Paul George and two first round picks and two second round picks. The first thought was probably, but why didn't you scour the league? He had such a great year.

Why didn't you just, why did you trade them for pennies on the dollar? Why didn't, why did you trade him for the first offer? And then when you say, man, you scoured the league and his value went lower and lower and lower, it feels bad. It feels bad on both ends, but it feels worse this way because it feels like his value got lower and lower and that nobody wanted him when nobody wanted him for the money he was making, the money he was going to be due and what the Celtics were asking for him in return. Like the thing, there's a schism, guys, between the year that he had and the player that he is.

He had a top six year as far as keeping the Celtics afloat relative to our expectations, all the numbers, career highs, all this other type of stuff. But even the GMs who like him tell me, I think he's the top 25 player, not a top six player. And the Celtics were trying to get top six return back for a top 25 player, which in theory is what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to try to get more than what you got. But it just dragged on long and it just left the bad taste in people's mouths, which is why people are all in their damn feelings. Right. And if you let's look at the players who've been traded this summer, Kauai, extension time, flippers weren't doing it.

Lamello. He had some years left at its extension time. The hornets weren't doing it. Miles Bridges, not that he's quite on the same level, but still, extension time. The hornets weren't ready to do it. They traded them. Okay. So I feel like I'm forgetting somebody.

I mean, job, but. Well, I don't know about that one. this was somewhere between, I just want to be real careful because I want to be real careful with the, I don't want a bad mouth Jayden Brown, right, who's done nothing but produce and win in the NBA. And, you know, like, okay, he goes on Twitch and says things that piss people off. You know, I do think all that stuff and the, you know, his team, my team wrestling, that that is all part of this. but I don't want to like, I just want to be real careful that I'm not putting out there like, Jalen Brown's a bad guy because I don't believe that.

I've not heard that from anybody. But this was somewhere between Jha and Kauai in terms of it's just time to move off them and the extension also being a factor in the decision. I remain surprised that it was time to move off of him. But, you know, I will say this. Like Jason Tatum makes even more money than Jalen Brown does. But if Tatum's out there, the offers are much strong. Like, I had a team tell me, like, we were hoping that Tatum was going to ask out.

Well, I'm just going to say that I'm now going to be watching Jason Tatum's advanced metrics because the Celtics have set the standard that if they don't think your advanced metrics equal to your contract, they're going to trade you. So I'm now going to watch that. Yeah. And look, the other thing that we talked about last night on the pod that you absolutely did not want to do but thoroughly enjoyed was, why now? And I still think that, I still think you shouldn't have done this deal on July 1st. I don't think Philly was going to pull the offer.

I don't think Philly was going to find somebody else to take Paul George. I think this offer would have been on the table on September 1st, right? But in talking to people, part of the why now is it just became a situation they believed was untenable. And they had so many potential suitors disappear, whether it's Portland trading for Jod, Toronto trading for Kauai. you know, Phoenix gave up that 2033 pick that was perceived to have great value, trading for Miles Bridges. You know, just like all these,

there was another one that's not popping straight to mind right now, but like all these potential suitors, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, they're gone. And part of the reason they're gone is the Celtics came in asking for so much, those teams just like, we're not, that's that, we're not going to get in that mix. And went on and did their business that it basically came down to okay, there's only one thing left on the table.

Let's do it now before maybe that disappears too. And it's almost like, is it better to make a bad trade or no trade when you feel like you have to make a trade? More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay, we just did a drive-by in the Lakers yesterday. They went through a massive roster makeover because we're still dealing with the fallout. Walker Kessler, Quentin Grimes, Colin Sexton, and Mamu. Sandra. Sandra, who?

Mamooskelechvili. Damn, that's good. I don't know if it's good. It's what I got. Pretty big turnover of the roster. Now, what I will say is I've had interesting league reaction from this. Have you talked to folks about this, McMahon? We didn't talk about this beforehand.

Yeah, I have. I have. And, you know, obviously, I've also talked to the. Jazz, which is kind of like... I've done a lot of reporting on this. The other key party here. And so it is fascinating. And look, we can talk about kind of the ancillary pieces,

but Walker Kessler is now a centerpiece of the Lakers, right? He's their number three guy for the long term. And whether you want to say they overpaid on salary and they overpaid on the price in terms of quick, like, do you think they overpaid on salary? Like, I'm kind of okay with it. I'm not good at this, but I was afraid to get Walker out of there. You're going to have to offer more than 32 a year. Yeah, I would say this.

Talking to people around the league, they thought the five years about $140 million on the table from the jazz was a very strong offer for Walker. That's 28, right? Is that 28 a year? Yeah, I think it was actually like 137.5, but whatever. They would have, the 500 grand a year wasn't going to prevent the, like, the jazz would have gotten to 140. They felt like that was really strong value for Walker Kessler. Having said that, the Lakers had a desperate need that they had one real swing to fill. The price, I get it, because the other thing is, if you don't fill this need,

you can't look Luke in the eye after promising to deliver him a legit center this summer and have a conversation that's going to go well. That's just a simple fact of the matter. So the Lakers were backed into a corner because of the circumstances, because their cap space is use it or lose it, and because of the promises they made to their superstar, where there was desperation. And so I get the salary,

and then the jazz took advantage of that desperation to milk them for them to get better draft capital than the clippers got for Kauai, than the Celtics got for J.N. Brown. Like that, it's pretty remarkable. That's true, but now the jazz don't have a franchise center. Now, obviously they can get one. That depends on whether you want. to play Jaron Jackson at center. I don't think that was their plan. No, they're going with

thunder and lightning for this year as a stop gap, which is Yusuf Nurkich and my favorite Slovenian, Jackson Hayes. Long time Slovenia and Jackson Hayes. He's prepping for this time with the Slovenian national team, which we'll see if that actually happens by hanging out in the mountains in Salt Lake City. Oh, I thought you were to say hanging out in the mountains in Slovenia, which is where I know you've gone. Yeah, Slovenia, a beautiful place. But like, seriously, so then the Lakers, now they've got their big three. The Trace Lakers, they've got Luca Donchich, Austin Reeves, and Walker Kessler, who obviously, look, he's got to be one of the most dominant defensive forces in the league. Because the other thing the Lakers did is they went from being a bad perimeter defensive team to a god-awful perimeter defensive team.

So that's the reaction from it. So first off, so Luca is making 30% of the cap. That's the extension that he signed last year. It's kicking in. He'll make $50 million this year, 30%. That's the max level for him. Austin is making 25% of the cap. That's a max level for him.

Back in the day, we called it the fun max, but we've got to retire the fun max. I'm very sad to say there's no such thing in an apron era as the fun max. Even paying a really good player the max, like at some point here, Victor Wimbunyama is going to get a max. Not going to be fun because the Spurs will have to make other decision. So one of my best conceits ever that I stole from a, from a team president,

I have to retire, the Fun Max, loved it. Sadly, it's gone. But this is the remnants, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Hussk, the, the vessel that used to be the Fun Max is what Austin signed into, 25%. And so Walker Kessler, assuming they start his contract at about 30 million, and it goes up from there, which I'm sure they will, because they want to maximize their cap space. It's 18% of the cap. So 30. 25, 18, these are acceptable numbers for your three best players. Where you get in trouble, like the Celtics war, is when your two best players are both at 30. And now all of a sudden, it's hard to, those two guys are studs, which I thought Jalen and Jason were, but it's another story.

There's no threat of supermaxes in the future for any of them because they're not eligible. That's correct. So, Vinnie, I like that alignment. It's in terms of that spending. You know, the draft assets, they cost what they cost, but they got a guy who fits in salary-wise. I feel like the salary is okay. I'm not super excited about it, but it's okay. What you really need now is you need Walker Kessler to be a grand slam.

You need him to be a lob roll threat that absolutely dunks the ball like crazy off Luca and Reeves' lobs. You need him to be able to stretch the floor a little bit, which he's been working on. You don't even be able to stretch the floor. Go on. It would be nice if he could do a stretch the floor. to the floor for $30 million. What they really need is a backline defender who can be a killer defender, like all defensive team candidate.

That's what they need. They need to be a first team all defensive team who is a really good pick and roll partner with Luke and Austin. That's a big ass because there's a first team all defensive center who plays in San Antonio is probably going to be getting that. It's positionless brother. I know. But anyway, that's what they need.

So the question. You two are arguing like brothers. I know. What are you two go to your room? We're about to have a moratorium of no podcast for three days. I'm about to come a jackass la allopontems. The question is, is Walker Kessler going to be that player? It's hard to say.

Well, for one, let's make sure that he's completely healthy. That torn labrum, you know what I mean? I understand McMahon that he's probably going to be completely healthy, but let's consider the possibility that he has to be completely healthy. For me, it's less about the money because I thought the money was fine. The fact that you are now hamstrung and landlocked, to all of this having to work. Like there is no wiggle room with any of these guys.

Like Luca has to be in premium tip-top shape. Austin Reeves has to get better on defense. If nothing goes being a better team defender, a funneler, being able to funnel guys down to Walker Kessel. I do think that he's a top line defensive player. Potentially he's got limp. He's empty. He can block shots with ball arms or all that type of stuff.

But when you give up all your draft capital, I think they have one first round pick in the next seven. years. Is that what it is, Wendy? Do they control one first round pick? I think it's a swap. No, 2032, they still have control of. Other than that, it's either swap. Yeah, but they can't trade it. Yeah. They can swap it. No, I mean, they entered the summer with three first round picks they could trade. One of them was in the draft, which they used on Cameron Carr. He's there now. And then they traded the two others that they could have. 32, they could trade a swap,

but that they can't trade the pick itself. So you don't have any wiggle room here. when you have three players making, let's say, what, close to 8, is it 70% of the cap or was it more than that? 55%? That was 73%. 70%. That was impressive, McMahon. That was nice.

Good job. So you got three players making 73% in the cap. Like, compared it to Boston, if I remember correctly, Tatum Brown and Derek White made like 84% of the cap. And that was too much for the Celtics to bear all things considered. The Lakers are not in the exact same place. position, but they don't have the wiggle room. They don't have the breathing room.

And the draft picks usually are your breathing room. A, to get cheap talent year over year to wind up augmenting your players being on big time salaries to cost control of all that. Secondarily, being able to put a draft pick in a trade at the deadline if you need to. They don't have any of those mechanisms right now. You look at, are they athletic enough? That's the question. Are they athletic enough, aside from Walker Kessler, who's a lot of.

clearly an above average athlete playing center, but do you have enough athleticism around this ball club to make you a better perimeter defensive team? Because if you're not, because if you're not, it don't matter that you get Walker Kessler at the realm. If everybody's on a freeway down there, you're going to get this guy in foul trouble

and or put him in so many damn collisions and picking roles that he can't cover all that space that he's going to need to. Like a GM told me is Rob Polinka trying to get fired. That's what a GM asked me yesterday. I think he's trying not to get fired. Well, and the Kester thing, that buys them time. It definitely buys them time with Luke and there's that kind of pressure going.

Like if they come up empty-handed on the center this summer, they were going to have a real massive five-alarm fire on their hands. Now, but the athleticism, who is their best perimeter defender? Is it Bronny James? I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. Quentin Grimes is an okay perimeter to think. Well, the other thing about Quentin Grimes, I mean, he had a great year last year for Philly,

but he doesn't have what they call positional size. So he's like 6, 4, 6, 5, and if you're having him, so, you know, Sexton, the signing of Sexton indicates he'll be their third guard. So what you're going to, I assume, you know, I don't know for sure. We haven't heard from JJ Redick yet, but what I assume is two of the three of Sexton, Reeves, and Donchich are going to be out there most of the time. So that means that Grimes is going to, at be. asked to defend wings, right? He's going to be asked to defend guys who are bigger than him. So he's,

he's not a bad defender, but he's not. But he's got to guard Shea in a playoff series. He's got a guard aunt in a playoff series. You know, Luca has great positional size. Luke has got amazing, you know, ideally, you got a six foot eight guy. You could put him on a wing, but they have to put Luca on the, typically the weakest perimeter offensive player to, frankly, to save him. The problem is, you also have to put Reeves on that guy. Well, that's identifying why they paid for Kessler. Right, exactly. And that's why having that rim protector was so key.

But again, you want to surround Luke with as much shooting. The center's critical. They did that. You want to surround them with as much shooting as possible. And like Mamu's a shooter. Mamu over Rui, I don't know what Rui's looking for. I don't know where Rui is going to land, by the way. But I don't know that Mammu's an upgrade over Rui,

who shot a better than 40% from three the last three years and as a more athletic guy. Mama was a little bit bigger and a better rebounder, but that one was interesting to me. Colin Sexton over either Smart or Kinnard. Karnard is obviously one of the best shooters in Lee. Look, I know Marcus Smart's not near his prime, but he was their best perimeter defender last year.

So I don't know, man. They are, it's going to be, they've got their core trio in place, and it's going to be very hard for them to maneuver and upgrade around that, given that they blew all their draft capital is blown out of the water. Now, you know, they'll get another pick kind of every year type of thing to play with. But, you know, this car kid is a super athlete. We'll see if he can, you know, we'll see what he becomes.

Maybe he's an answer to some of these questions. And then, look, the Lakers do have the advantage of being the Lakers in sunny Southern California to where like the minimum market and those sort of. things they're always going to have an advantage there. So I'm not saying it's impossible, but I don't think this Lakers team is better than last year's Lakers team, which wasn't good enough to, you know, to contend in the West. Well, it's funny. You said the Lakers were on the clock.

I think we need to introduce all of the listeners, viewers, to a unfortunate reality about this NBA that we're in. Every franchise is on the clock that has a franchise player locked under contract. It's fun that Kauai gets traded and Yannis gets traded or Jalen Brown gets traded and everything else. You can be as great as you want to be. You are one bad 12 to 18 months stint away from that being your franchise and that being your franchise player. The bad side about how these things with these contracts are not forever anymore. The days of the 7 year max or the 6 year max, that doesn't happen.

So as soon as you sign your deal, you're going to be able to. for an extension in two years. And in those two years, once again, going back to it, if you are not going to resign with your team, you're going to be traded. If you don't want to resign with your team, they're going to trade you. Like, this is what this is.

So it's not specific to Luca that the Lakers were on the clock. Go look around at every superstar worth his salt in the NBA right now. Every team is on the clock. The clock is just a lot longer in Oklahoma City and in San Antonio. because they are so well set up for now. The Thunder won the title, number one. Right.

By the way, can I say I was... So did Boston a couple years ago. Fair point. Fair point. I was speaking, going real back to Walker Kester's contract. I was talking to surveying the league and they said to me, this guy said to me, he goes, hey, you know who did a nice job? And it's kind of gotten buried over by everything is the thunder on that extension with Isaiah

Hartenstein. is a three-year extension for $75 million. So the average annual value is $25. Now, they added it on to what he had, but his previous, I think McMahon was $27 or $28 million. They ripped up the team option, and he took a haircut to help him with luxury tax. He took a mild haircut in a summer where, you know, Walker, you know, Walker Kessler gets 32. We're seeing, you know, backups get, you know, Robert Williams and Mitchell Robinson.

They're high-level backups, but those guys are backups, and they're getting, 15 million a year. And you know what's funny? It's the same agent, same primary agent, Aaron Mintz of CAA, but it's two completely different circumstances. You had Walker Kessler, which, look, Walker Kessler really wanted to be a pick and roll partner

in glamorous L.A. with the best pick and roll creator in the league. Simple fact. And he wanted to get paid. He was able to accomplish that. He got Walker Kessler, what he wanted? Isaiah Hardinstein really, wanted to stay in Oklahoma City where he's won a championship, where he's become like just this beloved

figure where he's poured himself into the community. He did not want to leave. He wanted to stay. He was willing to take less the market value to stay. And he got what he wanted. So same agent to totally different circumstances. And that's why the contracts look so different. Okay. So we'll see what happens with the Lakers. I know everyone is, I was impressed that they were able to get Kessler done. I thought the price was heavy. Vennie, were you on? on first take with me when it came down? Yes. So last year I was live on first take when the Miles...

How about this for Storytime? Story time. All right, this is brought to you by SoFi. Get your money right. So last year, we're on first take, and the Miles Turner thing happens. And remember how that came out of absolute nowhere, right? So all of a sudden...

Because it was also the Damien Lillard thing. Damien Lillard thing. Damien Lillard stretch, yeah. Right. We didn't know. So all of a sudden, and I want to say it was about July 2nd. It was sort of like, it was a little bit after. I don't, I don't know. So anyway, we're here in L.A. and we're sitting in these rooms. And, you know, because we're not all on set together. And so we're in different rooms. So, and Bobby Marks is out here. And Bobby is in his other, he's got his own room. And by the way, you know, he upgraded this year, McMahon. He used to, Bobby used to have his laptop. And then at the trade deadline, and free agency, he would add a little side screen to the side of his laptop to make like a little, it was like a half screen. So we had like a little extra space. This year, Bobby has upgraded to a whole second screen. He walks around with a double screened laptop now.

I thought they'd have people like roll like a big screen TV with his little, uh, maybe that'll be next year. Yeah. You know, with this touchscreen ready to go. So, so basically there's this hallway here in our LA, no, we have studios here, but then there's this hallway where there's different. rooms where we're on TV like, you know, it's looking at a camera. I'm in one of the rooms now, okay? And so Bobby's in like another room where he's doing his thing. So I'm on first take. And we go, breaking news, Sham Shcherania reports Miles Turner signing with the bucks four years, $105 million. And I go, holy, he goes, we're going to react to him. We come back from the

break. I go, holy hell. Where the hell did they get 100? You know, they didn't have salary cap space. Right. Instead of why would they do that is how did they did that? Right. So I come out of the chair, you know, unplug my, my microphone and my headset, and, you know, I come out of the chair and I open the door and I yell down to Bobby. Where the hell are they getting the cap space for Miles Turner? Are they doing a sign and trade?

He goes, no. I go, oh, I close the door. and then and then I hear over our over the head set they're like yeah it sounds like Shams says they're going to wave Damian Lillard I go you gotta be kidding me

and I when I open the door again and I yell down to Bobby Bobby are they waving and stretching Damian Lillard yeah slam the door you gotta be kidding me open the door again how much is that going to cost him he goes hold on a second it's going to cost him whatever a million over six years, slam the door again. 22 a year for five years, I think it is.

Go back and sit in the chair. And I'm all worked up. I got my face is flushed. The makeup's starting to run. Yes, absolutely. We come back from break. We come back from break. I should have just calmed out.

I shouldn't have been reactionary to this thing. And I go, this is like mortgaging your mortgage to buy a sports car. I just scream that out in the moment. I have no idea to this moment what the hell I was talking about. 365 days later, I stand by it. Yeah. Well, listen, Miles Turner. Shout out to SoFi.

He damn sure got his money right. Just like Walker Kessler got there. He got his money right. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. So Vinnie, what happened yesterday? We said a similar thing happened yesterday, right? We were talking about what's the Laker strategy? And I'm like, they don't look like they have a strategy.

They haven't done anything. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And literally, as soon as we go to commercial, it's like, ha ha, we got something for you. They haven't done anything. Polinka hits the dominole. And then, of course, you know, our intrepid social team. Of course. Puts the clip out.

Always on our side. And as opposed to like them deleting it or whatever. Like, all right, cool. It's out there. It's in the world. They can find on YouTube. Right. You set it on national television.

Yeah, yeah. It's out there. I'm like, hey, sometimes you say stuff in like we're doing live TV. Well, you're doing a live podcast. You work with the information you get, and then sometimes the information changes. And the information changed. And Wendy was like, wait, how many first round picks?

And I was like... That's what happened. So Courtney Cronin, who's hosting the show, Shea is out this week. Courtney Cronin says, Lakers get Walker Custer in a sign and trade. Four years, $130 million. I go, that sounds all right. Let me get my phone out and do the... I was like, 32, that sounds all right.

I go for two first round picks, I was like, all right, like pricey, but not, not bad. So I'm reacting live on air. Like I just, I haven't even seen the tweet yet at all. And so, like, you know, hey, that's, first time, this is a, this is a smash hit to get a franchise center. They didn't overpay on salary. Like, you know, maybe it's a little heavy, but I, okay, I'm fine with it. And two first round picks, like that's steep, but, you know, not ridiculous, not bad. like two first round picks a few hours later got you Jalen Brown.

So I was like, okay. And so we're reacting, talking about it. And so while I think Vinny is talking, I look down at Shams' tweet, and it's like two first round picks and two pick swaps. And I saw that the first round picks were 31 and 33 unprotected, so way out. That's what they had available. I understand, but I just had to see it. And then I, Vinny, I stopped it.

I said, halt. And I want to amend my position. And look, 31 and 33, Luca will be about, I think he'll be 31 and 33 in those years, actually, if I'm not mistaken. So if Luca's still there, then it might not, the price might not end up being that steep. You could have said the same thing when the Mavericks traded for PJ Washington. And then when the Mavericks traded for Daniel Gafford. And let me just tell you, the Mavericks people were criticized. for those trades. Niko was criticized

the moment for those trades and then hailed for him when the Mavericks went to the finals months later. Now, I will go out on O'L.M. and predict this. If Luca leaves L.A., it's not because the Lakers decided to backstap him and dump him in the middle of the night. If he leaves L.A. it's going to be because this thing

didn't work out. And he feels like, I've got to find some place to win a championship. But again, I think the price of this trade and whether the Lakers over paid in terms of what they gave to the jazz is going to be determined by if Lucas still in L.A. and if he's able to stay healthy, that'll be the primary factor. Because if they're

giving up, you know, 20-somethings, and you can live with that and you can live with the, you know, obviously the hamstrings in terms of upgrading. But like the Mavericks are Charlotte, the top two protected pick next year. The year after, what they did to get Gafford is they got the Thunder's pick and gave up 28 swap rights. You know, And then, I mean, they, oh, 29 in a separate deal. That was Kyrie, so it's worth it. But that's Houston's property now. And then the 30 swap is actually hilarious.

That was a sign and trade to get Grant Williams, who was here for like three months. And to dump Reggie Bullock on the Spurs, they gave up swap rights in 2030. So again, if, but if Luke was still here, you could live with it all. but the way things worked out, boy, oh boy, does it look dumb. All right. I want to take a look at the Sixers now, the Sixers roster now that, you know, it's been so much a focus on Boston and rightly so. But let's look at what the Sixers, you know,

because the Sixers had quite a day on the second day of free agency. So they lost, we mentioned just Quentin Grimes, who was a nice player for them. I don't think it would have made sense for them to pay him $60 million. I don't know. my snap opinion. It's a great, it's a really good deal for him. No question. They also lost Kelly Ubre, who I thought had a really good year last year. And by the way, at two year 17 million, which was what the Pacers signed him for, that's, I think, good value. I think Uber had a good year last year. He's proven he can defend multiple positions. I like that signing for

Indiana. Man, how are the sixers going to replace that wing production? No kidding. Hey, listen, Paul George had a good shooting year last year. Just, you know, like, it's having him be a three-and-d, you know, corner spot-up shooter for $50, whatever, $57 million is not what you're looking for. But, you know, he didn't have a terrible year. He did get suspended for 25 games for PEDs or not even PEDs, but whatever it was. Yeah. So Paul George played 78 games over two years for them.

Well, listen. Chris Hapsport-Zingis played 70 games over two years for three different teams and got 40 million. So what do I know? The Sixers also signed Dean Wade. They brought him over from the Cavs on a four-year deal for a little under $40 million. That's Mike Gansy signing a guy that he found in Cleveland and nurtured. Basically, he replaces Ubre, but he's bigger. He's 6'10.

He can defend threes, fours, and fives, whereas Ubre is more of a two and three and I guess four under certain circumstances. more of a two, three defender. And they signed Ariel Huck Porty to a, it's a little bit more than the minimum, away from the NICS. Is the NICs lost two centers yesterday? Yeah, I was going to say, interest in the NICs weren't willing to do that because they are scouring the market looking for a backup center after Mitch Robinson left. Yeah, and they knew Mitch was going to leave, and they still, they could have made Huck Porty

restricted by just offering them $2.5 million dollar qualifying offer. And they didn't even do that. That's a guy they drafted and developed, which was, you know, I know Jim Dolan's had a couple of mandates, which is one of which is not we're not going to the second apron. But one of his other big mandates has been we got to draft and develop guys. And this is a guy they drafted and developed. Hey, I mean, they used him at times in the playoffs. Like he got playoff minutes. Anyway, then they did a little thing called known as training for Jalen Brown.

Okay. So let's take a look at their roster right now. And it's hard when we're about to do an NBA Today show here in L.A. and they're going to put the Sixers starters, like projected starters up during the A block, and I'm kind of like, well, go ahead and put Joe up there if you want. I mean, projected, ideal.

So obviously, this is a team that was largely, and still it will be, built around Maxi and Edgecom and their speed. And so the question, Vince, really is, how and where does Jalen fit in playing with high-speed guards, Maxi and Edgecombe? Because that's the guy that, I mean, you know, If you have Embed, and he's getting the ball and Jalen can educate him on his flopping and whatnot, that's a different conversation. You know, you're going to play a certain way with Embed, but you're probably going to have to fit in with the guards.

And this is going to be a different style than Jalen's played because this is not the way the Celtics played. No, and also defensively, because he won't have so much offensive responsibility because you have in theory, in theory, Joel Embed, which always sounds like a good idea. and then reality happens, he's going to have to be a better defender. Like I saw some metrics and stuff and some numbers that said he was a below average defender this year. And I think that he has the bones of being above and a well above average defender.

But when you look at where they are, I was just crunching the numbers, guys. We talked about the Celtics having like 84% of the cap being tied up in those three guys. The 76 is at 88. It's still tied up for 38 because Paul George makes the same. Sorry. I mean, it's basically a financial wash next season,

but they were really top heavy to start with. Yeah, that's the thing. They have 88% of their cap tied in Joellen B, Tyrese Maxie and now Jalen Brown. And once again, I don't know what we're going to see out of Joelle and Bede. Like, I was, Philadelphia, 70s, 6th fans get mad at me. But when I saw them lose game one of that series, I knew they were cooked against the Knicks.

when they went home on Mother's Day weekend and it sticks out with me, your arena got taken over and you got beaten by 30 in every game. And that was basically with a running clock. I don't know how Jalen Brown changes all of that, especially if the Celtics have graded him out to be so poor or whatever it was in so many different areas. I'm fascinated by how all of this is going to work. Like, their number one thing outside of Tyrese maxi should be, we need to develop BJ Atcombe. Like, that is our future there because he ain't making max money, but he will be a max player at some point in the near future. Like, don't just go around collecting things. And I'm not saying that Jalen Brown is like, hey, just going out collecting things.

Maybe they bought a, they picked up a depreciated asset and you get rid of Paul George. So you're looking at this as a positive. but they also have to keep their eye on the ball and not be so inundated with we got to maximize joel and bide when we saw what happens when you go without joel and bead and then you bring them back you wind up losing sight of everything that you've been in the meantime so part of the problem with the celtics was jatham brown's fit with jason tatum and his level of happiness fitting as a co-star and not as the man. This is Tyrese Maxie's team, maybe still Joel Embed's franchise. So how does Jalen Brown fit in all that? If Embed's health and he's on the floor,

like, is it instead of your turn, my turn, is it your turn, my turn, his turn? Like, how do they, it's not fantasy basketball. So how do those three coexist, and enhance each other, not detract from each other. That's going to be, like Nick Nurse has got an interesting situation

on his hands to try to figure out how to maximize. And look, the criticism of Joelle and, I'm sorry, not of Embedde, of Jaylon Brown from the nerd community is not that he's a bad player or even that he's inefficient or any of those things.

It's that he doesn't make the guys around him better. It's that the Celtics were worse with him on the floor than they were when he was off the floor, damn near every season of his career, including this year when he was the man, but even in previous years. Now, they were still very good with him most of the time, but they were better with him off the floor. So how does all that fit? And I just wonder, like, I wonder how Jaylon Brown feels about this situation where I think it's one thing if he'd have been traded to Milwaukee. And clearly he was going to be the best player on that team. and he was going to be 1A

and they were going to figure out how to put a supporting cast around him or at least try. That's not what this, that's not where he's walking into here. I agree, yeah. So this is, this is a great point.

And also point out, he's got three years on his contract, no option. So, you know, like, that's a great point. No option, but probably expectations

of an extension. There's been so much drama, I don't even know where that leaves itself. And look, they are, Edgecom's going to be a heck of a player. I don't watch college basketball, but this kid they drafted from Alabama's clearly got some talent.

There was some, you know, some people were surprised by the fact that he slid into the early 20s, you know, which is where they ended up getting getting maxy, by the way. The Baron Philon. on, is that, I'm not pronouncing that right? That's why I said that kid from Alabama

because I'm not trying to pronounce his last name. Yeah, I mean, he was a guy who was sort of seen as potential late lottery, mid to late lottery. Vinnie, right? And then he was certainly, he had a, he had a bit of a, you know, a bit of a face on, like when he got drafted. Like, I think he feels a certain way about it. And then, oh, by the way, there's that picture Mike Gansy's brother put out. And Wendy, you know a bunch of these guys that was it. What was that from like an Ohio All-Star game or whatever?

So, yeah, so Steve and his, Stephen Gansy is brother. So Mike Gansy's from the east side of Cleveland. And Mike Gansy is a new president of basketball ops in Philly, came from Cleveland. And he was from Cleveland. And while he was in high school, Mike was like a Cleveland Plain Dealer All-Star, like all of the whole, you know, into Northeast Ohio media area here. But the plane dealer had is the seven counties that it sort of is the makes up greater Cleveland. and, you know, making the all-plane dealer team was considered a big deal. And they would bring all of them together for like a photo shoot.

And they would, you know, they would have, it would be like catered. And they would, sometimes this is where they would meet. And so there's this photo shoot with these guys in it. And one of them is LeBron. I think he must have been a freshman because Maverick Carter is one of the other. Maverick and LeBron only played together one year. So it must have been 2000, the year 2000. The Cleveland Plain DeLen.

99. No, because LeBron was a freshman 99. Oh, so I don't know. I'm thinking, yeah, me and LeBron are the same age, but he's a year behind me. My bad. Listen, don't question Wendy on Northeast Ohio. So this would have been the year 2000 Cleveland Cleveland Plain Dealer All-Star basketball team. My bad, Wendy.

The concept of the point is that Mike, because Mike Gansy is like standing next to LeBron with his arm on LeBron's shoulder. Like, boy, look at these guys. These were buddies. Let me be Gansy's brother and just drop this on social media right after. for the make the J-Tham Brown trade. Could you imagine? I mean, look, what are the odds?

By the way, it didn't, I mean, it's cool. I liked it. It was Memory Lane. I remember some of the other players in the photo and covering them. Gansy was on the Cavs staff when LeBron won a championship. Like, they have a ring together. I know. It didn't need to be some.

But even one routes. Exactly. Like, listen, the Sixers are somewhere on the long list of teams that have a level of interest. I don't know for sure, but they have to call. Yeah, I mean, Tony Jones from the athletic reported that they've registered their interest. And again, it's a long list. But could you imagine if you drop LeBron? At a certain point, it does become how many basketballs, you know, are available type of thing.

Yeah, it'd be an awkward fit, but you have to call. Like, again, if I were, if I were, you know, you guys have heard what I've said about, you know, make a move to, you know, like for example, if I were Josh Kronki, the governor of the Denver Nuggets, okay, I would find out what golf course LeBron is on today, and I would fly my plane to that golf course, and I would bring along a case of screaming eagle. I don't know anything about wine, but I know that the Kronky family owns this screaming eagle winery in California, and it's one of the most expensive and rare things you can get in the U.S. have a case of that wine with me, and I would have two phones. On one phone, I would have Nikola Yokic.

One for the plug, one for the load? What? Oh, nothing. I would have Nikolaiyokic FaceTiming from Serbia saying, LeBron, let's play together. And on the other phone, I would have Rich Paul, LeBron's agent, where I would negotiate a contract extension for Peyton Watson, Repulse represented by Club. Saying, let's make a deal. This is what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about. out as what I think you need to. Does Joker get reception at the at the stables in Serbia? Then send somebody over there with a phone that does. Make it enough.

Figure it out. Right. Once again, Denver's on the clock. Nikola Yokic, extension eligible. Everybody that you think is stable on the clock. Denver thinks they're in great shape with Yokic and, you know, everything's going to be fine. but obviously they've got to work to do on that roster.

And other teams are monitoring. You know who else has work to do, Wendy? The Detroit Pistons. That's very curious if they know their free agency has begun. They got John Collins. I was a little bit loopy on the show on NBA Today yesterday. They lost Tobias Harris, who re-signed for the mid-level. Now, maybe Tobias would not have signed for the mid-level for the pistons.

And I don't know. I don't want to assume that. but Tobias goes for the mid-level. You replace them with John Collins. You know, he's more of a lob threat, I agree, than Tobias is. So maybe with Kegg Cunningham. But, like, they didn't, they held onto their cap space and their expiring contracts. They held on to their expiring contracts in the middle of the season at the trade deadline

when it was clear that they could have used some offensive help. Then they get into the summer and they re-signed Kevin Herder for $9 million a year. And I'm happy for Kevin Herder. But Landry Shamet, Got six million a year and shot 10% more and was a playoff contributor. Herder got $9 million a year. They trade for Isaiah Joe. Excellent trade.

High, nice value, okay, but he's a backup. I mean, shooting. I know they need shooting. And they addressed that. But they lost Isaiah Stewart and Tobias Harris, replaced him with John Collins. Is that the move of a team that's taking the next step, Vince? I mean, I don't need to be. I like John Collins.

I don't want to be a jerk. trying to be a jerk. And there's still the Jalen Duren thing, Kess are going to L.A. Certainly. Well, they're going to keep him. He's going to. Yeah. But it's messy.

They need a second score. It's one thing, guys, to be prudent with your salary cap space to not rush and do anything rash, like, you know, trading for Blake Griffin when you're not sure what type of condition he's in and everything else, like previous regimes. But you can't come to, you can't come to the back to the table with Kevin Herder, who gave you virtually nothing during the playoffs last year. You lose a big part of your identity with Isaiah Stewart and you're sitting there holding nothing but salary cap space and Jalen Durrance hurt feelings because that situation, no matter what happens with that, that situation is not going

to be. Once you hurt a guy's feelings on something like a young guy's feelings on restricted free agency, I don't know, it doesn't bode well, right? You got to repair that relationship one way or the other. And everybody knew that Detroit Pistons needed a second guy. And look at how many teams have gotten better this offseason. And think about Indiana coming back. Like, I don't know where the Pistons sit in the power rankings, but it ain't high. Well, I'm just afraid that as soon as we wrap this pod, we'll have made some crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

For example, Norm Powell would have filled a glaring need for the Pistons as that second score, you know, a guy who can create a shooter alongside Kade Cunningham. But Norm Powell decided that he would rather get more money in Chicago and more shots in Chicago than come to Detroit. Like, if they'd have signed Norm Powell, I'd be sitting there saying, hey, man, that's a really, really great fit for Detroit. He's not a superstar, but he's an all-star who fits. But they, like, I don't know. Can you trade for Tyler Hero? Like, can you pull off something in the trademark with the flexibility and the picks that you have?

they've got to find something because bringing back a team that feels like hit their head on the ceiling in the second round last year after barely getting out of the first round, that's a tough look, ma'am. No, it's not only that. You sign John Collins not into the trade exception money or even mid-level. You signed them for more so you don't even have those mechanisms. You couldn't even sign Norm Powell into your cap space. if you wanted to.

Like just because it was not just because, but $2 million more. And Tobias Harris wanted probably a little bit more money from Detroit than he was willing to accept somewhere else. And Detroit was not willing at, I'm guessing, his age and everything else, considering they went younger with John Collins. But you can't look at that roster and say, man, Jamie Bickerstow's got a lot more to play with this year, especially for a team that maxed stop on the defensive end,

like you said, McMahon, to win 60 games. and as soon as everybody else started playing playoff defense, you saw what it was like. And everybody's loading up. Like that would be the frustrating thing. If I'm a Pistons fan, everybody in the East is loading up. What are y'all doing? Well, we'll see what they're doing.

Maybe they're going to do something the next 10 minutes. Maybe. It'll be just our look, Wendy. Hey, be sure to check out game changers where we look at America's top 25 female athletes with an unforgettable countdown. Be sure to watch on the Roku channel to find out who made the list. All right.

Okay, thank you so much to our producers, Mark Tucker Jackson. Thank you very much to McMahon and Vinny. Thank you for watching. Listen to the Hoop Collective all week long because we've had a lot of content. We've had great numbers on them. That's why they keep making me do them. And I look forward to a couple of days off. Can we do that, please?

LeBron, I'm talking to you. Thank you very much. All right. We'll talk to you and hopefully early next week. Adios amigos. Oh, and enjoy the holiday. 250 America. Sorry, McMahon. I didn't mean to step on here.

Good charge. Adios amigos.