Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Wild Start To NBA Season + Why The East Is Wide Open

Episode Date: November 17, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to discuss the incredible games we have already seen to start the NBA season including a wild slate of finishes over the weekend. Then, the guys discuss the significance of the Hawks’ success without Trae Young, the Knicks compounding injuries, why the Cavs have not reached their ceiling from last year yet and how wide open the Eastern Conference is. Finally, the crew talks Kevin Durant’s ability to remain an elite scorer, the Pelican’s parting ways with coach Willie Green and if the Thunder could win over 70 games. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. the HOOC collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we are doing just about midnight on the East Coast on Sunday night slash Monday morning. Joining us from New York City on the East Coast is Tim Botts. Hello, everybody. And joining us from the American Airlines Center in Dallas,

where he was at an overtime game, one of about seven overtimes that were played in the NBA on Sunday. Seeing the Mavericks beat the Portland Trailblazers, it's Band McName. Howdy, partners, it was a much. Much needed win for those Dallas Mavericks. You don't want to bleed out too long. And, you know, not sure there will be too many of those, but heck of a night for old Cooper flag. With all the TV you've had to do in the last week, I'm sure you were glad you didn't have to wear a suit to the game tonight. Glad I didn't have to wear a suit and glad I didn't have a double overtime, like Friday night.

Friday night's Crisis Bowl when the L.A. Clippers snapped a long losing streak here. Crisis Bowl. I like it. I stole out one from Steinie. Okay. That was good. Well, there was some double overtime action in the NBA on Sunday. We'll talk about that in a minute.

And actually, I just want to start right there. So if you remember, was it last Monday? Yes. We had all the crazy games. There was three shot, three buzzer beaters. And people talked about how, like, man, it was one of the great nights in the NBA. Then Wednesday was like a truly great night in the NBA that would have been like normal, been like maybe the best night of a month or best night, you know, two weeks.

And there was actually discussion like what night was better, Wednesday night or our Monday night. And then I want to present you with Sunday. And I know that, you know, a lot of folks were probably watching the NFL, of course. It's America's favorite sport. It's fine. There was no national television. You know, none of these games were made for TV matchups.

It was just a batch of NBA games. and in Boston, the Clippers had a shot in the air at the buzzer. It was James Harden. They missed. The Celtics beat him. James Hardin scored 11 points in the final 11 seconds, and that shot didn't go in. That's right. Wow.

And the clippers were down 24 in the second, I think the third quarter. The third quarter. And had a shot in the air to force overtime. the magic I thought had the game won against the rockets. Couple times. Yes. And they led the entire game. We actually, we were texting on our chain about how, you know,

it's been a pretty amazing week for the magic and now that would have been a big win. But the rockets, which we'll talk about later, they execute, you know, Durant hit an incredible three. And then Alpi Shengoon executed a, a post-up play with less than two seconds left that forced overtime after a crazy scramble where the magic got a dunk where they thought they won the game. That was, that led to overtime, which the game was won by the Rockets. The Mavericks game that you were at, McMahon, went to overtime. I really don't know exactly what happened at the end. I know the Mavericks were

behind in the fourth quarter, right? Yeah, honestly, Cooper Flagg was incredible. In crunch time of this game and, you know, just your normal 18-year-old 21.8 rebound, five assist, you know, a couple blocks in a steel and, you know, come up big as a closure type of performance that you see all the time. You know, the kind of thing that might make people reconsider that he would be the six-player picked in next year's draft. Okay, don't get ahead of ourselves. Don't get ahead of ourselves. All right. Then in Utah on Sunday night, the Jazz beat the Bulls 150 to 147 in double overtime. The game was won by Keante George, we talked about, I think, last week, hitting a game winner with under a second left in double overtime to finish with 33 points. And Lowry

Marketing only put in 47 in that game. Kobe White coming back from injury and playing, I think, was that his first game, Bontemps? Yes, first game. He was supposed to have a minute restriction and hit the game, hit a driving layup where he shook. I think he shook one of the big white guys. I lost track. How many of them. Well, listen, Kessler was gone, so there's not as many He wasn't him. We're not gone, but out for the season. There was another big white guy. I can't remember which one that he shook and hit a shot at the buzzer of the fourth quarter to force overtime.

He was so exhausted, he could barely walk, but he was making plays all the way down the touch. He played 30 minutes, and he had 27 in his first game. So that was in Utah, a double overtime game in Utah. And then in Phoenix, the Hawks won their fifth consecutive game. and won by two points over the suns, coming back from 22 points down in the fourth quarter. 9.53 to go. They were down 22 points that closed the game on, I believe, a 43 to 19 run to win the game. That was just a Sunday night and arguably the third best night of basketball of this week. And you also didn't count the game Friday in San Antonio where Victor and Steph went back and forth down the stretch and each had about six wild highlights.

Yes, I didn't count the back-to-back 40-point games that Steph had in San Antonio. Products pretty awesome. Yes. Also, I made one just to correct the record slightly because I said it incorrectly before. Harden scored the final 11 points for the, uh, Clippers in a little over a minute in that game, that game this afternoon in Boston, including one of the greatest plays with the second left

that I've ever seen to get a wide open three at the buzzer, but just missed and what would have been an epic comeback for the Clippers. Markinen missed 18 shots tonight, which is a lot, but not the most shots missed tonight. Jalen Brown missed 19 shots today, which is a lot. A lot. But not the most tonight. Nope, McMahon, that was your game, or Shaden Sharp missed 20 shots.

He made a lot, too. 12 but not 20. Yeah, this is a lot of basketball. One of them was a late dunk that he tried to throw down and missed. It would have been pretty epic highlight. Basketball was basketballing. And so look, Bontemps, I know on your social media this year, you've been talking about just the, routine

interesting things are happening in the league and you know I'm a big believer I'm a just in my everyday life I'm a big believer

in the in the satisfaction and the appreciation of what I call ordinary time I like you know

seriously I like you know enjoying ordinary time is a philosophy like I windows a simple man McMahon listen I do enjoy

I enjoy Bon Tempts enjoying the awesomeness of NBA basketball. It's like his push away from the USWB persona on a daily basis. It's good stuff. Yeah, I mean, seriously, like, I mean, I'm not trying to be hokey, but like, if you had League Pass, which by the way is $100. I know there's a lot of things that cost a lot of money, especially by media. I'm not saying it's nothing. But if you just enjoy League Pass. Got your money's worth this week.

For this week. Yeah. Which, by the way, on Saturday night, I got to enjoy a Minnesota Timberwolves Denver Nuggets game. How'd you do that, by the way? Where the court was, it had the Prince court. Where I don't know, I don't know, the Purple Rain Court or whatever. Yeah. Bontems, I think they should have done that when the 76ers were in town because the biggest prince

fan in the NBA is Nick Nurse. That's true. Nick Nurse plays in a Prince cover band in the in the offseason. What concert was he at when Kawhi signed with the Clippers? That was the Arkells. I think it was an Arkells concert, I don't, but Nick, they're a Canadian band.

Nick plays in a Prince cover band. Like, I don't think they do like 10 gigs, but I mean like they get together in Jam. It's true. So I just want to say. reason that's remarkable is because I had a when I got it on my television like a tear fell down my cheek because I haven't been able to watch Timberwolves or Nuggets non-national television games.

And to get the millionaire jailbreak, Big Band, to break through the blackout rules. Is that what happened? I think so. Also, um, do you pull some strings? High level tier. I was able to, I was able to execute it without getting help. Was the phrase, do you know who I am uttered? No.

Nope, I just maneuvered. Didn't need to freight, didn't need to utter it. I just did some digital maneuvering. Also, I will say using the new Amazon, I have, I get it on Amazon Prime. That's new for me. But when a game ends, they will just go to another game that's kind of close. You can just hang there and they'll bring you the basketball. You don't even have to mess around.

Now, they don't have the quad box that you could get on YouTube TV. I can't take that. I can't handle that. But, hey, or on a. the NBA app, I have to say. The NBA app is a computer with the NBA app. But on Amazon, they'll do a little where you've got one big old one and then you got two off to the side.

I don't like that. I really don't like that about the Amazon setup. If there's any Amazon people listening, give us the ability to just have four games on instead of this thing where you've got two little games over here and then one extra big game. I can't take the multi-screen. I would agree. McMahon is able to do, like, he's able to watch like six games, college,

football games at once. I love the quad box. You guys are smarter than me. I can't take in all that information. I can't do it. But anyway, the point of all of this is there is a routine greatness that is happening in the league. And you can make fun of it all you want.

And, you know, if you don't, I mean, chances are if you're listening to our podcast in November, you don't have to be sold on that. Yeah. But there's a routine greatness happening. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. For example, this last game we talked about the Hawks, the Hawks just completed a Western Conference road trip at 4 and O. How many Eastern teams are going to go 4 and O. Now, it was not, I've seen many tough road trips.

This was not one of them. What were the stops? Clippers, Kings, Jazz on a back-to-back, and then this game against Phoenix. It's been playing well. And I thought we were going to come on here and say, the sons have been rolling and playing great up until 10 minutes. Well, I know. I mean, at the 10-minute mark of the fourth quarter, I was like, man, we're going to be given the suns their flowers on the pod. And then the game just completely flipped around on its head. Hey, this isn't an ESPN research tidbit, but I did confirm it. I was told Devin Booker has smiled more this season than the last two years combined. And I asked him. And with a big smile, he said, it's probably true. So there are some good things going on in Phoenix. You know, they just came through here. They've been playing well. Yeah, Jordan Ott, who is their first-year-head coach.

By the way, I just want to say, I think the calves are missing him. That's not a shot at anybody. I think the calves are missing him. He's done a good job of getting them to, you know, and listen, Matt Ishpia, now they have not played a difficult schedule. I think as the start of the weekend, I don't remember who they played on Friday. At the start of the weekend, I think they'd only beat in one team with the winning record. This would have been their second.

So so far they've beaten the Jazz, the Spurs, the Clippers twice, the Pelicans, the Mavericks, and the Pacers. Okay. So they beat the Pacers. So the Spurs, okay. And by the way, their upcoming schedule is at Portland, Minnesota, San Antonio, Houston, then at Sacramento, and then at Thunder, Denver, at Lakers, at Rockets, at Woolz, back to back. games of Golden State and then the Lakers, and that's up to Christmas. So between now and Christmas, we'll see where the suns are at on Christmas. That'll be, that's a lot of games against big time opponents.

They'll have a proof of concept, but listen, Matt you should be a promised, improved basketball. They've been taking care of business against who they should be beaten. Like that, there's no, there's no crime in that. Like, they're doing what they need to do. They don't. It's not like they earn a position to try to, you know, lose as many games as possible to take advantage of their draft pick. So like, you know, they've got Devin Booker back playing like an NBA player and they've got sound defense around them and like they're looking like a solid

team. But this is going to be a brutal stretch. Like we'll see where they're at in six weeks. Ishbya promised a pesky hard playing squad that their fans would enjoy watching. They've delivered that so far and the early returns on their young, unproven head coaching hire are very encouraging. All right. Well, so on the Hawks. So they, They go four and no on this road trip. Now, their next game, they play the Pistons at home on Tuesday.

Wednesday. Wednesday. Oh, wait a minute. No, I'm sorry. You're right. My,

I didn't realize it was after midnight. No, I was looking at my thing. I had to move two days. Bond Timp's correction. Hey, got to love that. It's got a lot.

It's happened for me. It's happened for me. I had to move my thing two days over. I was thinking it was Wednesday, but we waited a long time for McBan. Is that potentially a, no, you didn't.

You wait a long time. potentially a mid-to-late round Eastern Conference playoffs matchup, Hawks, Pistons? Yeah, I mean, listen, the Pistons, by the way, the Pistons didn't play on Sunday. Pistons won again on Friday without Kate Cunningham, beat the Sixers. I know Paul George and Joel M. B. didn't play.

Paul George might play against the Clippers on Monday. We'll see his question, will not play. It would be season debut. Pistons have won nine in a row. Talk about guys going a good job. J.B. Pickerstaff has Pistons playing great. They're in first place in the east. Dennis Jenkins, they're two-way.

Dennis Jenkins just had a great week. He had an incredible week. He looks like a legit rotation player. I mean, might make an argument he's better than Dennis Schrooter right now. And they're not missing Dennis Schroeder. Sir, this is the MVP of Eurobasket, the reigning MVP of the world's top.

We just got benched by the reeling kings. Who are 3 and 11. They lost on Sunday. We didn't even mention them. That was not one of the awesome games on Sunday. No, the Spurs beat them. Pullham blowout win for the Spurs over the Kings without Victor Wimbin.

Yeah, Victor Wenamah by the way, with calf tightness and sounds like he's headed to the MRI. So hopefully not serious. Did Doug Christie have any good press conferences? I will say. I didn't see if Doug said anything after this game. But in the same like 30-hour period earlier this week, he crushed the haters. He's, you know, we're going to, I don't have the exact quote in front of me.

Just Harry High School, rah, rah, right. Ridiculous. Harry High School. You know, he's just like, we're going to show you. This is going to be the King's show. We're going to get all you haters. He was like spewing cliches and hashtag. He went from hating on the haters to hating on his own team in about a day and a half.

Yeah, Dana. Like I was talking to an executive who was watching their game. And he goes, look, he can say whatever he wants. I thought that they quit on in that game. And so he must have, I don't know if he thought that, but he must have not liked what he saw because afterwards he came in and ripped his team. And it was like, it was like. Well, now was a game also against the Hawks where they lost by about a trillion. Yeah, the Hawks laid waste on this trip.

Sure did. So anyway, I will just say the Hawks, they are number two in the league in defense behind the thunder since Tray Young went down. And they had another injury. Zach Rishishay had a ridiculously nasty looking fall on his hip going up for a dunk. I think in the second quarter or third quarter of the game. He only played 15 minutes. So he's got to make sure he's okay. I think those stats might be slightly

slightly delayed from before today's game. They're currently, I think they're tied for, there's seven and two since Trey went out. They're tied for third defensive rating with Toronto Raptors over that span. Toronto Raptors are also playing very well. Seven and two in that span, maybe two. Bon tips. They've gone.

They've gone. The Raptors also playing very well. As I told you. I just, I remember we were like five games into the season. McMahon had them going 20 and 62. That's all. I didn't realize they hadn't played. I didn't realize it was nine games without track.

I thought it was eight games. Yeah, they didn't. I don't think by when you looked at it, they'd counted the sunskin. Anyway, they've been playing very good defense. Jalen Johnson, I don't know who's going to win player the week in the Easter conference.

There's some really good candidates, but Jalen Johnson has got a case. I would bet on it being Jalen Johnson. Yeah, his number. He just, he had one of the best weeks of his career this week. And not a lot of 31, 18, 14, and seven steel triple doubles. That's pretty good. Yes.

That was what he did against the jazz on Thursday. He's been, he's been really picking up the playmaking more. I mean, the Hawks numbers offensively are up across the board because they have to be. It's not necessarily, their defense, it's easy. When you know of Trey Young, your defense is going to have a little bit more of a chance because they have to cover. Their entire defensive scheme is designed to cover for Trey Young. That's not meant to be an insult. They also, they replaced Trey Young in the starting lineup with DeKale Alexander Walker, who's an outstanding defender.

Like, this is really complicated. He's missed a handful of those games. I'm just saying. Yeah. If you go from Trey Young, who's one of the worst guard defenders in the league, to Niki, Keel Alexander Walker, who's one of the, he's in the top, what, 20% of guard defenders in the league, something like that, maybe higher. Like, if you make that flip with the other guys they have there, like, they're rolling out there now with a massive lineup with him and Dyson Daniels at 6-8 in the back court. And then Jalen Johnson and either Risha Shea or Ineke Okungu and Chris Dasporzingis.

Like, they've just got a ton of size out there all the time in athleticism. and it's a proof of concept for what this scene could look like without Trey for an extended period. And we're going to see how that looks for another several weeks with Trey out when they start to play some better competition. Well, the game that I was at for this last week, I saw him play in L.A. a couple days ago, they started Keaton Wallace at Point Guard. Case's big brother. That is when I learned that he was Kaysen's brother. I did not know that. I'd hate to sound like who he played for. Richard said a good story for them.

Went from a two-way to a full contract, and it's been a good story for it. I did not know that. Those losses have barred you. That's the thing. They play very few guys. I mean, Luke Canard is obviously not a lights-out defender, but basically every other guy they're putting out there is either neutral or most of them are plus defenders. That's a pretty interesting lineup.

So, Bontim, you hit on this, though. this is basically a trial period for them without Trey, right? And they were not close to getting an extension done. If you're not close to get an extension done, then I think the trade market... They could get one done at any time, just for clarification's sake, because he can be a free age this summer, so they could, in theory, do an extension anytime. Typically, though, when you're not able to get an extension done with a star,

trade discussions are at least on the table, you know, as a possibility. And this kind of gives them a chance to see what their team would look like without Tray Young as the centerpiece. You know, the other piece of that puzzle has got to be obviously what kind of value can you get. I still, you know, I don't think you can trade Tray Young unless you are getting some value in return. but it is an interesting little unintentional trial period that the hocks going through right now. For sure. And they're winning. And look, just because you have a winning streak in November doesn't mean that you're going to have that winning streak when it matters. But, you know, they definitely open some eyes. And that game on Tuesday is now a game that deserves to have attention paid to it. We'll see if I know Duren's been dealing with minor injury as well. Well, yeah, he and Kate have both missed the last couple games as Detroit's winning, but they've had a couple days off.

So in theory, they should be ready to go. And then the Hawks play, they're at San Antonio on Thursday. And then they've got New Orleans, Charlotte, and Washington before they play Cavs Corner on Black Friday. So, like, they've got a chance to rip off a bunch more wins and really put themselves in a pretty decent spot in the East. And, yeah, like, we've talked a lot about these, you know, whether it's Jamerant or Tray. Young or Lamello ball. Like, there's a lot of these guys who are in sort of interesting spots with their teams. And the common denominator is I'm just not sure what the market is for any of those guys.

And, you know, it's all going to be interesting to see. And to your point, if they, if the Hawks can continue to play well, playing this way, Jalen Johnson looking like an all-star, well, that's, it's going to be an interesting data point going forward to see what happens with Trey and that option and what his future is with the Hawks. Well, as you take a look at the state of the East, and you look at the teams, the two teams that were, you know, expected to be at the top of the East,

the Knicks are beginning a five-game road trip a Monday in Miami. It is not the most demanding road trip that you will ever see. However, it's still a five-game road trip, and they are going to be without you. I'll see him in Dallas. What do you mean? It's not demanding.

Well, that's true. true. The Mavericks are hot. It starts in Miami, then it goes to Dallas, then Orlando, at Brooklyn, at Charlotte. The Knicks are going to be without Jalen Brunson. He's dealing with an ankle injury, you know, indefinitely, but I'm going to definitely miss that Miami game. And then OG and Inobie, Shams reported on Sunday, OG left on Friday's game against the heat, which the Knicks and their number one ranked offense put up 140 points in the game you were at.

Big NBA Cup win there, Bontems. But O.G. Anobie, who's been a terrific catalyst for them, he said put up great numbers and I think was expected to put up really big numbers because when Jalen Brunson was out last year, then with an ankle injury in March, he had the most prolific offensive run of his career. He pulled his left hamstring and was going to be out. at least two weeks. So certainly this whole road trip and longer. And so the Knicks are deeper than they have been in the past,

but you lose two of your best starters. It's going to stress you out. So the Knicks are going to get tested over this next seven to ten days. Yeah, I mean, I like the depth. I think them actually being deeper than they've been in the past is a little, uh, questionable, considering part of that depth is Jordan Clarkson, who I just don't think is that useful,

a guy for them at this point. And there's no replacing O.G. an obi, like, or Mikhail Bridges. Clarkson's going to score 38. I mean, Clark's had an incredible game on Friday, and Landry Shammett went for 30 in the second half. That's true. Those guys can shoot it, but they have

nobody to replace OG or Mikhail Bridges. Now, McHell Bridges never gets hurt and plays every obviously despite every game of his career, so that hasn't mattered, but, you know, it's going to be a big test. Like, they don't, you know, they're a top heavy team, which is what happens when you have five

guys in your starting lineup all making big money. So it's not really a surprise that if multiple of those guys are out, they're going to have some stuff to answer for. But yeah, it will be interesting to see what that looks like. And, you know, hamstring strains are tricky. And you figure, oh, gee, probably going to miss a month. If you're just doing the math on it, like he's not going on this trip. So you figure that's already, he's getting evaluated in a couple weeks. It's probably a four-week injury. And, you know, Jaylen Brunson had this same ankle sprain last year. And you missed 15 games in March and looked hobbled at times in the playhouse.

So, you know, it's not ideal. That, like, that one last year was especially nasty. Like, that one was gruesome the way that his ankle turned. I know, but it's the same. I mean, I got to tell you, like, it's concerning. When they announced that was a grade one, I was pleasantly surprised. That looked like, you know, typically when you see a guy's ankle, to get gruesome here, when you see a guy's ankle bone kind of hit the floor there, you're looking at a grade two.

He checked out of the game immediately and he was walking out of the arena in a walking boot. So, like, it was certainly, I think, a good piece of good news that it was only a grade one. But again, it's the same ankleer sprain last year. That's a concern. Hopefully it's not too long. But, you know, it is something to monitor. for a Nick team that was starting to get some rhythm and playing better, particularly offensively. And now they've got to kind of go back to the drawing board with some of that while they wait for these guys to get back.

By the way, number one offense in the east. There's a couple offenses in the West that are better than the Knicks. But that's a correct. That's a correct correction. I did check you. If I don't, I'm going to hear from the folks in Houston. Hey, those red hot Houston Rockets still have number one offense, even better than, Joker in the Nuggets.

That's remarkable. Okay, so also on Monday, another team that is been at the top of these, and they're nine and five, so I wouldn't say that the calves are in any sort of trouble,

but really sort of an underwhelming nine and five at this point, and they are dealing with an injury to Darius Garland, who re-injured the toe he had surgery on in the off-season. He avoided re-spring,

the toe. They said it was just a contusion. So he's day to day. They play the Bucks on Monday, a team that they have owned over the last couple of seasons, and the Bucks are annoyed by it. I've already wanted to know against them this year. They swept him last year, and Yannis has talked about this a few times. He's not thrilled about it. Then Wednesday, the rockets come to Cleveland, so that'll be a good test. The Cavs, the way I've described it is what's happening with Evan Mobley is happening with the Cavs. He is sort of epitomizing what's happening with them this year. You look at Mobley's basic statistics and it looks like he's doing great. He's averaging 19 points. That's the most points he's ever averaged in his career. He's averaging

nine rebounds. Seems good. He's averaging four over four assists. That's the most assists he's ever average. He's averaging one and a half steals a game. That's the most he's had you. Be like, oh, man, this guy is, you know, he's putting up, you know, he's going to challenge. for another NBA all NBA second team. But the truth is that Evan Mobley hasn't been as efficient at all as he was last year.

Percentages are all down as efficiency numbers are all down and that is what's happening with the Cavs. They are still putting up okay numbers but their efficiency is plummeted. They've gone from number one offense in the league

in terms of efficiency, which is points per 100 possessions to not even being in the top 10, I don't think. And they've basically basically gotten by on Donovan Mitchell being awesome. DeAndre Hunter's had some moments too, but their defense has just been okay

and their offense has just been okay. And their margin for error has really, really shrunk compared to where they were last year. And they've had a few nights where they have just gotten their back sides kicked on the glass. And they just aren't as good offensively as they were last year. And, you know, they're still up there. Last year they led the league and the three-pointers made.

They're still up there, but they're bottom five in the league and three-point percentage defense, which was a problem for them last year. When you're making more three-pointers than everybody in the league and you're going to win the three-point battle every night, the percentage is less important. But when you're not as efficient offensively, you not being a great three-point percentage defense team starts to show up more. It's just everything about them is showing up more.

And long story short, yes, they're injured, but a lot of teams are injured. They are not the team that they were a year ago. And look, the team they were a year ago was out in the second round. They're not looking to be the team they were a year ago. But they are not a dominant team right now. And, you know, Darius Garland, who's been proven to be a very important part of their offense is, you know, is banged up again with this injury. So. Yeah.

I mean, look, they, if you dig into the numbers, right? Like you said, Brian, they're not the same team nor were last year. They chose to replace Ty Jerome essentially with Lonzo Ball, which is a move that we all agreed at the time and I think still do, gives them a higher ceiling in the playoffs, but Lonzo is a worst regular season player. Ty Jerome has been hurt from Memphis this year because everybody's been hurt from Memphis this year. But last year, Ty Jerome was an offensive dynamo off the bench.

He was a six-man finalist. He gave them another guy to create shots whenever Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland wasn't on the court. and this year, Darius Carlin's played 73 minutes. Obviously, Ty Jerome has played none. And when Donovan Mitchell has been on the court, Cavs have had an offensive rating of 120, which is very good. It's up in the top five somewhere in the league.

When Donovan Mitchell has been off the court, the Cavs offensive rating is 106.9. It's 13 points lower and would be one of the worst in the league. And the calves are, I believe, 18 points per 100 possessions worse when Donovan Mitchell's on the bench. Pretty obvious. It's pretty obvious that, like you said, Brian, he's had to have some Herculean efforts

for them to win some of these games early on. And when he's not on the court, they have an extremely hard time scoring, which is not rocket science when you don't have Darius Garland and you don't really have another guy to generate offense in the back court. But it is putting an awful lot of wear and tear

on Donovan Mitchell early on in the season. And I think that's really the biggest concern. We've talked about some before is we've seen Donovan Mitchell wear down late in the season and in the playoffs in the past. And last year the Cavs did everything they could to mitigate that, and it still happened anyway. And I think, you know, yes, they're off to a solid start. They've survived some of these games, but it's putting a lot of strain on him.

And I think going forward, that's the concern is, are they putting too much strain on him in November? And Lonza Ball, you can make a strong case. Is it better fit for that roster when they have Darius Garland? They haven't had Darryorland basically all six. season. So you don't have Garland. You don't have Jerome. You basically have one guy to be a primary creator.

And I'm sure there's going to be times throughout the course of the season where they're going to have, you know, they're going to have to pick some games to kind of punt. You can't expect Donovan to have this kind of workload. They actually picked a game to punt last week in Miami and they won it.

Well, there you go. And then they came back on Friday and lost. Lost the Toronto and then they were down. They were down a lot of the game in Memphis and then had a crazy fourth quarter turnaround and won that game on Saturday. Led by Donovan. It was great. You know, but the goal for the Cavs isn't to win 60-something games and be the number one seed. They did that. You know, the goal for them is to be positioned to make a deeper playoff run and to win the Eastern Conference.

And, you know, obviously it's not like you want a worst regular season record, but, you know, again, if you have to work through stuff now, and to be better position in April, that's life. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. We also mentioned the Magic a minute ago. The Magic had won three in a row before they lost in Houston, you know, looking like they were finding their footing. Now, Palo Ben Carroll's missed a couple of games with a groin injury that he suffered in New York earlier this week.

So that's a thing. It's not expected to keep him out for our extended period. but that would have been a really big win for them tonight. Instead, the Rockets had Durant and Durant had 35, I think maybe 12 or something like that in the fourth quarter and overtime. Well, for people that didn't see it, this game was tied with five seconds to go. And the Rockets had the ball in the front court and tried to inbound the ball to Kevin Durant, who fell down. And so the magic guard Anthony Black got a wide open dunk or layup with a second left that got fouled by Alps Shingoon to put them up by two. He then missed a free throw and then Rockets called time out.

Inbound of the ball to Shangoon, he hit a bucket at the buzzer to send the game to overtime. So that was the final five seconds of this game, which was crazy. Before that, they had had a three-point lead and Durant hit this wicked crossover stepback to tie the game. to tie the game. Yes. It was crazy. It was a high. The overtime was wild, too.

There was some hijinks with Des Bain. He was getting into it. Reed Shepherd. There was all kinds of stuff going on. Oh, Reed Shepherd did the old, you know, you blocked my shot and mean mug me and, you know, let me stick my leg out and try to ship you. I think that was before the overtime. But that that was in the fourth quarter.

Yeah. Yeah. That was in the fourth quarter. Dude, can we talk about the fact that KD is still like an elite score in year 19 and and there's been very little drop off there. And now he's in a situation in Houston where he just fills this glaring void as a go-to guy.

I mean, he's often an incredible start. I mean, look, there's some other things that have changed in Houston, but last year, the Rockets last season, an offensive rating in the regular season, or 12th. This year, they're first. And other things change. Dangoon has played great, et cetera, et cetera. But Reed Shepard's really starting to play.

Reed Shepard's played well. A lot of other things have changed. But Dylan Brooks is an inefficient shooter. And Jalen Green is a very inefficient shooter. They swapped them out for Kevin Durant. And that's a pretty giant part of why they went from being a up and down offensive team that really needed to offensive rebound to have any success to having the best offense in a league, still offensive rebounding like crazy, but also having.

Kevin Duran out there to make shots. Yeah, Kevin Duran averaged in 26 on 51, 489 shooting. That's pretty good. Let me just tell you something about Kevin Duran. So he has played, this is his 19th season. He missed the one year with Achilles' injury. Still 19th season. He has taken in his career, let's see here, 27% of his shots in his career have been three-pointers.

20% of his shots have been from 16 to the three-point line. So almost 50% of his shots, or about 50% of his shots, are mid-to-long-range jumpers, right? Most of them have been contested. I don't have that stat, but I'm going to guess a lot of them have had a guy in his face. He is right now shooting over 50% for the 15th consecutive. season. He's the best mid-range shooter

in the history of the game. I'll go beyond that. I think he's the best score in the history of the game. Yes, I agree. He is, he is. LeBron would agree with you on that. If you went in a lab and built

the ideal, I've said this before, if you went to lab and created the ideal person to be a scoring machine in the NBA, you would spit out Kevin Durant. He's got a perfect hook and jump shot. He can handle the ball.

He's seven feet tall. He can do, he can go anywhere on the court. He can shoot over anybody. You can't really contest any shot that he wants to take because he can get anywhere he wants. Like, and he only didn't score like 38 or 39 in a game or something during his career because he was always never really trying to do it. In that 15 years, he's only averaged 20 shots twice. He doesn't hunt shots.

No. He doesn't take. No, I say he doesn't take bad shots. He takes shots that would be bad shots for most human beings, but he does not take shots. shots that, you know, there's obviously some late shot clock things they have to get up, but he doesn't take shots that analytically are poor shots for him. And he's always played within the flow of a team. He's never like tried to dominate the ball or hijack an offense or anything.

It's like he, I mean, he's, yeah, I don't think there's ever been anybody that's been more complete at being able to score in the, in the history of the sport. Before he left for Golden State, he'd won. for the previous five scoring titles. I mean, if he had stayed there, I mean, a lot of things would be different, but, you know, he, you know, he might be right there with LeBron for the scoring.

I mean, he's, I mean, he's, I mean, he's, I mean, he's missed a lot of time with injuries. I agree, but he isn't there for the scoring. Yeah, but he's, he made a conscious decision not to keep winning scoring titles. He tried to prioritize different things. Some of it's worked out, some of it hasn't. Did once make a wager with Eddie Seff

who's now in the Mark Cuban semi-retirement home for sportswriters with the Mavericks. But it was with the morning news at the time. Anyways, I made a wager. This was back on, I think it was pre-Jolence fracture even for Katie. I bet that he would finish his career with more points than Kareem. And I bet $1,000 on it. A thousand dollars? Well, it was, there were.

That's a big number back then. That's, there were, there were beers on the table and, you know, a, few on the tab already. But I negotiated down to 100. I don't think, I think I'll probably have to pay it off. I did say Kareem because I said LeBron's also going to break that record. I ended up being right on that one. But, dude, Katie's going to end up being a top three or four, like, all-time score, just statistically.

Man, $1,000. Yeah, my blood alcohol level looked like a three-point percentage at the time. I still wouldn't rule out, by the way, him catching Kareem. Now, if he does, then I'll collect. Well, I will say that, you know, he is heavily motivated to play. Like, he's, you know, like, he's, he definitely wants to play on the Olympic team in 28. I mean, Kevin's 37. Like, he could easily play several more years as long as he doesn't have any other significant injury.

I mean, he's already had a significant injury. But, like, I mean, he could, he's going to be able to shoot the ball for as long as he wants to play. Over people. What I mean? Like, he's what I mean? It's not like he's blowing by people now. Like he's still athletic, but I mean, he's still going to be a seven footer with skill

and the ability to hit a jumper as long as he wants to do it. Yeah, there was, there was a clut situation. I believe it was in the overtime of that game. And a men Thompson came up to set a screen. And I've told you, Katie's told those young guys like, hey, when I want the ball, I'll let you know, be aggressive, do your thing. But, I mean, Tom, and Katie said,

nah, back up. I forgot who was going. He's like, I don't need to. Oh, it was Tristan de Silva. Yeah. I don't need a screen here. Get out of the way. I got this one.

A man was trying to bring Des Bain, I think, over into screen. And Kevin was like, get out of here. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. It was almost the exact same shot that Cooper Flagg took a few minutes later in the fourth quarter of his game. And he didn't quite make it. But it was basically the same move.

Got to 15 feet. And Kevin's made that move a million times. Like, again, he gets to 15 feet and rises up. Like, he can get to 15 feet and rises up. Like, he can get to. where he wants and shoot that shot every time without a problem. Well, Jackson says tonight was the 174th game in Durant's career that he had 35 and 5, which ties Westbrook for ninth most in NBA history.

And Westbrook's, you know, a stat-suffing machine. So, all right, so you mentioned Cooper, Bontemps. McMahon, Cooper Flagg, you said earlier with a high-quality performance in this game tonight, 21 points at 9 of 16 shooting at 8 rebounds, 5 assists, steel two blocks. And you identified that, you know, obviously the Mavericks have had a turbulent first month. You don't serve. That's one way to put it.

Some people have deigned to, like, criticize Cooper. And here's the thing. Look, have the Mavericks been disappointing? Yeah, I mean, they're 4 and 10 now. Sure. Has Cooper Flagg been a disappointment? That's ridiculous. Again, I will remind everyone that McMahon was the one leading the charge

to talk about other people for rookie the year about a week and a half ago. Okay, that's two different things. I will just kindly point that out. It was a little bit more to, I just said that there was other rookies who were off to a sizzling story. By the way, Vijay Edgecombe is, you know, he's calmed down. Yes, he's calmed down some too. All I'm going to say is 18-year-olds don't step into the NBA and impact winning. It doesn't happen. There's literally never been an 18 year old who played a

significant role on a playoff game. The closest that's come to that was Kobe, who averaged 7.6 per game as a rookie and shot 41.7% from the floor. Now, Cooper flagged the line he put up tonight, 21 points, eight rebounds, five assists, a couple blocks in steel, never been done before by an 18 year old. If you want to take the blocks out, there's a few LeBron games in there, and that's it. 20 points, no turnovers. Cooper's done that twice now as an 18-year-old. Kobe did it once. Nobody else has ever done it before.

I mean, and I can go down a long list, like 20-point games. That's his fourth. Kobe had four. LeBron had 14. And like, dude, the comparison, the only comparison to what he's doing as an 18-year-old, is LeBron and there have been, you know, like... Allow me to point this out because you know I keep talking about how Cooper's situation reminds me so much of LeBron's. LeBron's first month of his career, he played 17 games.

Here were his stats. Now, I got through, I have to 14, but you can go... Oh, go ahead. Because that is that what Cooper is right now, 14? Yeah, I have to do 14. And just to put this in perspective. Yeah, go ahead. Kobe, T-Mack, and Yannis.

Kobe had three DMPs. T-MAC had seven DMPs. Yannis had five DMPs. They were all single-digit scores. I don't think that's, I don't think those are fair comparisons. I'm just, I'm just pointing out,

just like these are Hall-Famers. And they all had more turnovers and assists. They were all string beans not prepared to play in the NBA. LeBron and Cooper were prepared to play in the NBA and told you're going to be the point guard. Yeah, although I think Cooper's good. going to fill out a lot over the next few years. But yes. Well, LeBron did two, but just go ahead. Now, the point guard, okay, just we'll get to the stats first. They both have four and ten records.

Okay. LeBron's number. By the way, LeBron lost the next five. He started four and 15. Go ahead. The Cooper might. Anyways, through 14 games. LeBron average 17.4 points, 6.6 rebounds, 6.1 assists, 3.4 turnovers, shot 42.4% from the floor. Cooper, 15.6 points, 6.7 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 2.3 turnovers. His shootings up to 44.7. So, the bronze number is a little bit better. Pretty comparable. Same records, and I know the Mavericks had higher expectations, but like AD has been out, this roster is terribly constructed. I think we can all acknowledge this. is not a team built to win now. And again, just like, yes, we are going to grade him on an 18-year-old curve because guess what? He is 18 years old. This kid's mustache and goatee don't connect.

I think he's at armpit hair for about four years. Like he's not a man child. He is an 18-year-old kid and he isn't scared of the moment at all. Like you saw tonight in Crunchtime. He sees Donovan Klingon's on the bench, okay, man, I'm getting in the paint and I'm going to make things happen. And again, just like, I'm not trying to hate on Kevin O'Connor. He talks to people around the league, but he put out there that Cooper Flag, according to people he's talked to, would be maybe the sixth pick in next year's draft. I strongly encourage those people to hit up KOC and say, hey, just to be clear, that's on the, or that's off the record, right? My name's never going to be attached to that because that is a fireable comment. It's an insane thing to say.

There's a lot of things that are wrong in Dallas. It's why Nicola Harrison or not guys a job. The one thing that is not wrong in any way is Cooper Flagg. He's going to be just fine. And the Mavs are going to be just fine with him. Well, I agree with the first point. I would say there's a lot of work to be done. No, no, no.

I don't. What I mean is that what I mean is that long term Cooper is going to be just fine in Dallas. Like it's all going to be good. Now, again, the Mavs have work to do. I'm talking about Cooper's development as a player. Cooper is going to be a megastar in the league, and he's going to be awesome. And I think a lot of the commentary over the last month has been insane.

And by the way, he played the first, what, seven or eight games at point guard, a position he had never played at any level in his entire life. And I asked him about it the other day. And he basically admitted, you know, hey, I was not ready for that. I wasn't comfortable doing it. And said it doesn't mean I won't be able to do it in the future. But since they've started a point guard, a few games with De Ansel Russell, which a few games for a reason.

Since then, Brandon Williams, just a point guard. Any point guard basically let him play his natural position. He has looked a lot more comfortable. I have a conspiracy theory about starting him at point guard, but I don't know if I'm going to, I'm going to bite my tongue on that one. I'll share it with you guys, but I can't go public with. I do have a conspiracy theory on it, though.

Well, in the month where the Cavs got LeBron a point guard, he averaged, which was January of that year, he averaged 23 points, five rebounds, five assists. His assist numbers came down because he was. His usage rate came down. when the run's usage rate started going down, his efficiency numbers came up. Yeah. And I think the same thing will happen with Cooper.

There it is. Yeah. And the thing about Cooper, like, remember, the reason he was considered a special no-brainer number one overall pick wasn't because people said, hey, that guy's going to be an elite offensive engine. Like, he's not, he's not Luca Donchage. It's a different type of prospect. he profiles as maybe like a 1B on a championship game offensively and an elite defensive player. I mean,

profiles like a Kauai Leonard or Kevin Garnett or somebody like that. It was a pretty damn good player. Yeah, and maybe it can be a 1A. I don't know, but like the reason he was special is not because he was going to be some 30-something point per game score. Yeah. Anyway, if anybody wants to sell their Cooper flag stock, I'm prepared to. I'll buy it.

I'll buy it. It's going to be okay. Okay, so there was another team struggling that made a change, which was the Pelicans let Willie Green go to start of the weekend, plays him with James Barago. I think Barago's first game was against the Warriors on Sunday. Tonight. Yep.

Yesterday, on time since after midnight. It's fair. True about Sunday night. Correction. Just teasing you. Which, by the way, Moses Moody. This is the way it's going for the Pelicans right now. Steph had a terrible night.

He had nine points. He was two of 11. You're thinking, oh, man, this might be a chance to get him. And Moses Moody hit seven threes in the first quarter. You know, it's, that's funny. Obviously, Moses Moody had a great game. He had 32 points. One of the interesting subplots of the Warriors season was back in October,

he had a great train camp and it looked like he was going to start. And he hurt his calf, like right before, a couple days before the season opener. And he missed the first couple games. He came off the bench for a while. but he it's taking him a little while to like get in get familiar with the league I should think he's familiar with the league like growing into this role with golden state but he was pretty good for them last year he's had a very good deal and he's been awesome for

them to start this season and by the way the other guy starting with them for them on the wing is will richard who is a guy picked in the 50s and for the third straight year mike dunleave he's got a rotation player in the 50s in the second round which is a nearly impossible thing to do. So, you know, for a warrior's thing that's had some developmental issues at times, those are a couple of good ones for. Quentin Post, the other guy. Trace Jackson Davis two years ago, Quentin Post last year, and then we'll... By the way, I have a correction to make. Oh, I like corrections. Especially correct corrections. I heard from a high-ranking executive of the Oklahoma City Thunder. Oh. In the last podcast, I talked about the process at which the Thunder

acquired AJ Mitchell and I said they started with the 52nd pick and then they made two trades and got them with the 38th pick even though the Thunder have like 37 second round picks to their name

in the next like eight years they actually did not have a second round pick going into the 2024 draft and they started by trading Lindy Waters the third for the 52nd pick and then made it was a process of three

trades where they got in to get AJ Mitchell to 38th pick. Now, that's okay. I called him AJ Johnson for like the first half of last season because I kept man, the excuse was, I wasn't going to bring that up, but that is, my excuse. My excuse was going to pre-plays. Yeah. When I was confronted by it, when I screwed it up like the eighth time by a high-ranking

Thunder executive, I said, well, this guy plays like a, this guy plays like the first rounder. So it was a reasonable mistake. Yeah. So just to, I want to correct the record. Now it plays like a lottery pick. They didn't even have a second round. pick and they worked their way to 38 over the course of the day.

And because I think it was the second round. It was the second day. I was doing, I don't know when they made the trade, but it was day two of the draft. You know, it was also going to be fine. The Oklahoma City Thunder. They're also going to be fine. We'll talk about them a little bit more later. I think McMahon's, they're about to lock them up.

Somebody's coming after them. Yeah, they're packing up. They're packing up around here. Maybe we should pack up too. Was that it? I can't remember what else we have. We were going to talk about the Thunder potential pursuit of 70, which I will tell you it is not a priority for them. That's true, but I want to point out that they pretty much have been playing at a 70 win pace for the last two regular seasons.

Dude, it doesn't have to be a priority for it to happen. But I asked Shea. I saw him in L.A. when they were, they won their eight straight to open the season. And, you know, I asked them, I said, hey, like, is this something that you guys might shoot for? And he kind of was like, eh, I mean, it'd be cool. We don't really care about that. Well, they do have a bunch of TV games later. I mean, they have some, their bigger matchups are later in the year because of, you know, TV.

Mute your line there. I was going to say, you could hit the mute button there, boss. Do you know how to do that? You sure as hell don't. That's not true. Anyway, I will just say this. This, last week, both the Thunder, I mentioned this on the last pod, both the, the Lakers and the Warriors had a little bit of an unnerving post-game sessions.

You can't take, it's like, it's like McMahon making a thousand dollar bet at the bar. You got to be careful evaluating your team after you play the Thunder, especially when you play them in Oklahoma City. Well, the Lakers then went out and beat the box by about a billion points on Saturday. The Lakers are seven and two on the road. Yeah, so are the Hawks. And LeBron is. for the best record in the league other than the thunder on the road.

And LeBron is practicing on Monday. So, you know, nothing is guaranteed, but that's a good sign. Yeah, they've had a really good start. But it's the thunder and then it's everybody else. Which is why they're, whatever they are, 13 and 1, 13 and 1 on the season. And their point differential is astronomical. And they've done it all with Chad Holmgren being in and out of the line. lineup and Jayla Williams is not playing at all. I mean, last year, they outscored teams by

12 and a half points per 100 possessions, and that's at a record. This year, they're outscore in teams by 15 and a half. And Jaylon Williams hasn't played yet. I know, they look deeper. Should I make hotel reservations for the finals in Oklahoma City? I mean, why wouldn't you? I made them in June. I made them in June. I made them in June. Hey, we've already, we've already got time slots of the old tipsy-ticky. It's hard to get in there. Of course you should. It's hard to give them to the tip. But the Tiki, one of my most enjoyable days of the whole summer was watching the Sunday of the U.S.

So we did a podcast. And then I went in the back of the Tipsy Tiki and they set me up with the TV. No one's ever been happier to sit in an empty bar, empty room in a bar by themselves with a Coke and watch golf. They were out of, and Brian Winters was at the Tipsy Tiki in June. By the way, they were out of Diet Coke. and they went out, I can't remember the young lady who made the special trip for me, but they went out to the store because they had just, you know, McMahon, well, McMahon doesn't, he doesn't do mixed drinks, but, you know, McMahon and all of his buddies,

they had been celebrating the Thunder win the night before and, you know, they drank the bar dry of mixers. And so they went out to the store. I mean, I didn't ask them to do it. They went out to the store and took care of me in the back. It was glorious. And was just JJ spawned with an incredible finish. I was just cheering in the back. Nobody had any idea what the hell I was doing back there.

It was, you know, like 5 o'clock on a Sunday afternoon. Most people were just, you know, recovering from the night before. And I was having an absolute blast. It was taken care of wonderfully there. I'd love to go back for that. Next year's U.S. Open. You'll be back. Maybe I will make those reservations.

All right, McMahon, you've got to get out of there. Fontems, you got a baby. You probably used to be fed here pretty soon. Thank you, Jackson, for staying up late. he stays asleep. Yeah. Thank you for listening and watching. The Houp Collective, we'll be talking to you in a couple of days. Adios amigos.