Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Worried About Warriors? Detroit To Make a Move? + Knicks Stepping Up & Flagg’s Future

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Anthony Slater and Vincent Goodwill to talk Russell Westbrook’s turn back the clock night, if the Warriors’ early season injuries are a concern for the aging team, the sustainability of the Knicks finding their stride and how wide open the Eastern Conference is. Plus, could Detroit be a potential buyer at the deadline and are the Mavs hurting Cooper Flagg’s development with the squad’s current structure? All that and some bonus storytimes. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hoot Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday, late morning on the West Coast, early afternoon on the East Coast. Joining us from the West Coast in Sacramento, where he attended the Sacramento King's Golden State Warriors game on Wednesday night is our man Anthony Slater.

What's up, Slater? It felt like I was in 2015, 2016. A decade earlier, I even said something to Rust Post game. I'm like, I'm writing about you. I'm writing about you having triple-d. doubles. It was a flashback. I mean, because, you know, as you know, I covered him way, way back in time. Joining us from New York, actually, you might be in New Jersey. I don't know which side of the river you're on, but you were at the Knicks game last night, Vincent, Vince, Vinny Goodwill.

Vinny, I, before you say anything, he's talking about throwbacks of 2015. I, I took, my head went back last night. I took, I took some shrapnel last night because it was, you know, was a calves throwback night. The calves had a throwback night last. Jerseys, right? Yeah. To 2009 when they had blue jerseys, I was like, holy bleep. That was like the middle of my career.

Like, like I was six years into covering the NBA, and that is now qualifying for freaking throwback bleep. I had to sit out. You know what that is? We owe. That's all. We old. I'm just happy to get you two on a podcast together.

I'm ready for, can we do it like a Zedrunas-Logowski's flashback? Like, what was that 09 season like? You guys probably covered multiple games together that year. Oh, my God. I think the, uh, the calves might have played the Pistons in the first round. Swept them. That was the end of, that era. Chris Weber?

No, no, no. There you go. Because that was 07. Okay. right that's right you're right yeah oh nine was the post chancy billips trade the the the michael currie coaching the disastrous uh chansy billips alan irs and trade and all that stuff oh man yeah i lost track of how many times i dragged my ass up to alburn hills man troy marriott funny times fun times wendy i'm sure um yeah i could go on literally i could take this podcast on a 45 minute talk about

my time in Auburn Hills in the 2000s. But we're going to move it forward. We're going to talk about today's MBA. Slater, Westbrook. Yeah. Well, this has been an interesting week for Westbrook because he fired some shrapnel across the aisle at the Nuggets, basically saying they kicked him out of town. And he's like, you know, Bennett Durando from the Denver Post was asking him the questions.

And he was like, well, didn't you have a player option? Because he did. He opted out of $4.3 million and signed back for. 3.6. Yeah. Now, you tell me that Westbrook is notoriously frugal. Mm-hmm. That's giving up money.

I assume he didn't enjoy that $700,000 tradeout, but he said, I don't go where I'm not wanted. So he fired a missile over at Denver. And then he had some things. By the way, I thought you might have to play for the Warriors last night. But hey, listen, it's an NBA game. the Kings are missing some dudes too, Westbrook. Kings weren't just missing some dudes.

I mean, both sides were severely. They were missing Sabonis, Levine, and Kiga, Mertie. Russell Westbrook was basically starting at the four for them, Power forward. He's guarded Lori Marketer and he's got to Yonis. He's been awesome. And he signed a week before camp. You mentioned, you know, giving up the player option in Denver for a little less money.

He also walked himself into a very unknown summer, right? He didn't sign until, you know, September, whatever it was. But he's been great. He's been one of their, you know, three, four best players starting now playing 35 minutes a night. You mentioned it, 23.16, assist, 10 rebounds last night. It's a win the Kings needed. And 204th triple double, 18th season turns 37 next week. I mean, it is, those nights are reminders of like the accumulation of his career and how unbelievable it was,

including in the press conference, he makes a statement, I'm the greatest rebounding guard ever. And I just asked like, hey, is that like statistically driven? driven or like when did you you know try to claim that and he was basically looking at me like look i've always claimed it but then josh debo from ap's in there and he literally had the stat up for his story saying actually tonight you pass jason kid for the most rebounds ever by a guard tonight was history and he's like i didn't even know that um but again it's just like this he is the greatest rebounding guard ever and i think sometimes within what the later stages of his career has been this is now a seventh team uh we kind of forget a little bit of

just what he statistically has meant historically. Vinnie, is he the greatest rebounding guard? I'm sure Oscar Robertson might have something to say. I'd have to, I saw that. I mean, I didn't just hear it in this second. I just haven't, I haven't really thought about it. I mean, didn't, not to, is Magic Johnson? Like, do we not count Irvin in this?

Like, didn't he have like seven and a half rebounds for his career? He's got a mischigander having a statement there. Okay, listen, that's a. Yeah, I don't know how much you guys. guys like you know the numbers matter more than just eye test or whatever but like his per 36 rebounds are are number one i think magic's two and fat leavers three but like you know oh fat lever that's a name that is a name that is but the numbers again i mean i think some people would argue like he's he's hunting the numbers in a lot of ways well you remember stephen adams in that year

stephen adams part of his job description was to was to block everybody out of the way so russ could get free throw rebounds. I mean, beyond just the, the numbers it produce and the triple doubles, like, that's actually a pretty wise strategy. You wipe the defenders out and your fastest guy on the floor gets the rebound and go. Or how about outlet passes? Like, what would Wes Unsell say about Russell Westbrook saying, hey, how about you just clear out and let me grab the rebound?

I think, I think, because I was one of those people in 2017 that did not vote for Russell Westbrook for MVP because I felt like we as a voting block mass of people we fell in love with the number 10 like I asked so many people if Russ average 31 9 and 9 would you have one MVP and people said no like so what we're doing if we're falling in love with a round number. It's a fair point. But on the opposite end of that, the effect of shall we like his spirit like the effect of like he's an ass kicker right and he walks into a locker room. And that sort of thing permeates.

And I think with the Kings, you have very docile personalities like Zach Levine, Domita Sabonis, you know, DeMarrault. And he's a vet, but he's not a getting your face sort of vet. Russell Westbrook is the guy that is operating with organizing team dinners, mandatory team dinners on the road. And you better show up. And if any other players doing that, are you showing up? But if Russell Westbrook is telling you to show up for an operational,

a non-optional team dinner, you're showing up because you don't want that smoke on the other end. So I think there's like a duality to the way that we talk about it. Yeah, there's the stat hunting and everything else. And that's kind of cringy because that came to define him for a few years. But there's also this dogged leader that people genuinely respect, especially for a team like the Kings that needs it. Like Russ can't fit on every team. But for a team like the Kings, he almost fits perfectly with what they need right now. It's very purposeful.

That was done by Scott Perry, the new GM with Doug Chrissy as the head coach, because that's how they're trying to build this team. And this is in some ways, in many ways, is kind of going to be a loss season for the Kings. I mean, I think we all agree it's not necessarily going anywhere. But this is year one of a regime that is trying to reform the image, kind of opposite of what the roster says it should be in a lot of ways. And the idea of adding Russell Westbrook is what you were saying. They want an edge.

They want to become like this defensive, like, grit. team again I think they're going like it's going to take some years and some retooling and some roster change but this is a mindset thing defensive grit let's trade for Zach Levin I like Zach Levine hey that's why I said the new regime that you know again although I you know the same owner still sits atop who yeah I think we could all say green lit the uh Zach Levine deal but you got you got you got to think Scott perry is a son of a Pittsburgh Steelers you know executive and was an executive himself with the Detroit Pistons during their era. Like, this is a tough-minded dude who views basketball through a certain prism.

And he's going to build a roster that has a certain element of toughness. He's not shining away from that. Every year. I was talking to him the other day. He went to, he's, like, really friendly with Mike Tomlin. And Mike Tomlin opens the doors every year. And he goes for, like, multiple days. And this year, he brought BJ Armstrong as assistant GM and Doug Christie.

And they, like, stayed out in the dorms of wherever the Steelers. St. Vincent College, right? I think that's really, yeah. They spent like five days out there. And so, you know, that's why he got Russell Westbrook. This is the type of team he's trying to build. Look, Scott Perry was my teammate for a couple years at ESPN. So I rooted for the best.

I just think the roster is in a tough spot. Slater, can you update us on where the warriors are? Like, Draymond, and then Jimmy Butler heard his back. Drayman was out. Steph's got an illness. What's the status there? Was it wine? Was it wine flu?

No, it was like a legitimate flu. He sounded a horrible post game after the Pacers game, like coughed, sniffling. It said it was getting worse. I talked to him in the locker room afterwards. You know, it's like stay back eight feet unless you want to get this. He stayed home. He was like they did a pregame huddle yesterday in Sacramento. He was on FaceTime.

I don't know which player. Somebody had the phone up and he was on FaceTime in the huddle. But he was legitimately sick to the point that he told Steve Kerr yesterday the symptoms were still worsening. And, you know, I wonder about his status Friday against Denver. Butler went up for a dunk in Indy, kind of back tightened up, you know, that's, it's kind of the age of this team, tried to play through it, you know, in the Sun's game, had to ask out after 14 ineffective minutes.

I expect him to still try to give it a go Friday in Denver. Draymond, you know, I think it was, it was, they just utilized the mass rest type night. Draymond actually was the one of the three that made the trip to Sacramento was on the bench. So they're generally fine as far as you'll see them soon, but I will say if you're going to ring some alarm bells, it's eight games into the season. And Steve Kerr's on the podium talking about how wiped out their stars are. I know it is a condensed early season schedule.

They're about to go on a six game trip. They've already played three back to backs most in the league. But it's November 6th, and they're talking about being wiped out for a stretch. Not a great sign. I have two Warriors comments. The first time, the next time I see. Steph Curry. I don't know when that's going to be, but I am going to talk to him about what I think is one of the greatest feats of his career, which just happened. Okay. In this golfing thing that he did

with Bryce and D. Shoeuvre. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. You're acting like it's like I'm joking. He was really proud of the way he played that day. Rightfully so. Do you have any idea what I'm talking about, Vinny? I heard it on a podcast that Steph was on, which asked me, which brought to me if he had a wine hangover. No. I didn't know exactly what he was talking about. This was a badass hangover from being a badass. Because I'm telling you, first off, it's this web series of Bryson Disham go goes.

And I'm not endorsing the series. You don't have to watch it. But this particular episode, it was an hour and 10 minutes long. I wanted to be three hours long. You watched all at 110. Hell, yes, I did. I enjoyed every second of it. And there's this one moment.

where, you know, Bryson D. Shambot, he's like one of the longest hitters in the world, certainly amongst the professional golfers. There's guys out there who are specialists who like only swing, like, you know, who aren't real pro players that can hit it longer. But amongst the pro golfers, Bryson's like top three. And there's this one hole where Bryson hits it. And he's like, oh, I got that one, part. I got that one.

It was a par five. They were trying to get there in two. And he's like cracking his knuckles like, I got that one real good. And so the concept of the show is, you know, they're in the cart and they're, you know, they're shooting the bleep while they're driving. And so they're driving up. And, you know, Bryson still admires. Like, yeah, I've been waiting.

I've been, the whole day, I've been holding back for this drive. And they get up there and he's like, and it's the best as you can see it in real time. He's like, wait a minute, Steph, stuff, you might have got me. Stuff, you might have got. First off, he hit like seven jaw-dropping shots in the, the round. And it was a scramble. And I think they used more shots of steffs than Bryson's.

And to be that good and to play that way in that setting, amazing. Second thing I'm going to say about the Warriors, you saw this little flare up this week between Draymond and KD about whether defense or offense wins championships. And I know that there's aggregation involved and KD's, you know, doing this thing on social media. The Warriors were the best offense and the best defensive team in those years. End of discussion. You got anything to say about that? I mean, it's just true. Okay. So I'm over. I'm tired of it. I mean, look, Draymond is going to get his takes off, you know, including on the NFL. You know, I think he made some headlines this week,

talk about Dak Prescott. And Kevin Durant is going to respond to, to take CCs online. And your assessment is correct. I mean, that's why they were dominant in that era. Like, you know, think about, you know, the front line with Prime KD, Prime Draymond in like late Prime Andre Aguadala with Clay Thompson. Prime Clay Thompson is like you're just like hound on the perimeter. Yeah, those were pretty good defensive teams.

I mean, that's called it. that's why it's called a death lineup for a reason. And it wasn't called a death lineup because of how great they were on offense. Like that was a byproduct. But because you were able to cause like hell on teams for 10 minutes stretches where you just prevented them from scoring and you could run away and hide because you could turn defense on the offense better than any team in NBA history, better than, I mean, look, man, that 2017 Warriors team might be the greatest single season team.

I think so. Number one in offensive rating, number two in defensive rating. And it was close enough to the spurs that if there had been a different last week of the season where they maybe played, they might have been number one in both. Okay. Then 17, 18, where they already knew they had everybody beat. Like, they knew no one was touching them. So they were three in offense and like six in defense. And that was what they knew that if they just had to tap.

the gas that they could just take anybody down. So I'm just saying, number one, number one. All right. Sorry, detour. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Vinny, you were at the Knicks game. Yeah. The Knicks are starting to power up. I don't know if anyone's paying attention.

They are now on the top five in offense. I think over the last like seven to ten days, I think they've been actually the number one offense in the league are right there with Houston. Houston's scoring some serious points these days. Josh Hart has come back from his I mean he started playing a while ago but from his back injury he starts till he's sort of been reanimated I know they got off to a sluggish start but and I know there was a whole Carl Towns thing but the nukes are going to be all right I think

well by all right it depends on what we mean right like I think we're going to get to if if the rundown is correct I think I might have a take for you later on but As far as the Knicks are concerned, Mitchell Robinson last night played 16 minutes had nine offensive rebounds and two block shots. Like the fact that you can control in today's NBA, if you can control possessions, they shot 53% from the field in like 40 from three and he had nine offensive rebounds in 16 minutes. Like the fact that you are able to control that many possessions and that little stretch

of time in a game where you're offensively efficient. And it's not the Jalen Brunton show. It wasn't the Carl Town show. like OG Ananoi and McKell Bridges are really sort of having great years. Like OG Ananoby is, I want to say, career high shooting, career high shooting from three, career high rebounding, career high steals, career high steals rate, career high scoring. So far, small sample size, right? But I think A, they play really well at home, Wendy.

B, they're kind of a bit of, don't say front running team, but if they get some positive reinforcement, they're going to be fine. And even though they don't necessarily scare anybody in the Eastern Conference, like per se, they are bona fide. Like this is a good, this is a really good top seven. I don't think anybody can deny that. Mike Brown wanted OG Ananoi with the Kings. I remember.

Remember when Ananobe was with the Raptors? It's one of the things he kind of like craved and never felt like he got in Sacramento, which was like length and power and like veteran, you know, juice on the wing. and just the fact that I know he's loving coaching Ogen, Nogianobie and Mekyll Bridges is like, you know, this kind of, you know, next stage of his coaching career. What do you, I mean, where are you guys at on like his, the way he's implementing change there? I felt like there were some maybe kind of awkward moments in the first few games. Obviously, the town stuff. But it seems to be going well.

I think it sounds like the three-point shooting is way up from the role players. And, you know, it's only however many games in, but they seem to be shifting a little schematically. they're passing a fall more. And I was there a little bit in the preseason, and it was pace, pace, pace, pace, pace, pace, pace. You know, it was like every single team was like, we got to have so much pace. I just looked it up.

They're 23rd in pace. So it's not like, you know, relative to the league. Last year they were 26th when Jalen Brunson was leading the league in dribbles. So it's not like they're flying up the court. But here's the thing. they've got like, I know this is going to sound like surface level analysis. They've got like eight really good players. And like for the last couple weeks, most of them have been healthy.

And so they put eight good players out there. And Mike Brown does have them, you know, the Knicks probably have some stats that show that within half court offense they're moving a little bit faster, that they're dribbling less. Because I do think that, you know, that is the case. so maybe there's different ways to define pace. But this is what Mike was hired to do, was hired to make over their offense.

And what you're talking about, Vinnie, with Ananobe being sort of activated offensively, like, that's what they want. They want less reliance on Jalen Brunson. They got some guys to come off their bench, you know, Jordan Clarkson and, you know, Miles McBride's back and he's been doing good. Like they want that sort of stuff.

off their bench. But the point was to get other players going. And OG's a case where that's definitely been the case. I mean, I will say this, guys, it took Mike Brown 40 minutes to come and talk to us last night in the post game press conference. And I don't think he was addressing the team, right? I wonder how much. And this is after they scored 83 points in the second half in a game where Anthony Edwards had just come back from injury, Julius Randall. was back at Madison Square Garden again and everything else. And I'm like, I'm curious. Okay.

Was Jim Dolan talking to Mike Brown after the game? Like, there's always something around the corner. Did the players talk first? By the time we, they, and I didn't realize this, but they did wind up opening the locker room while Mike Brown was talking. Like, it's a weird. They did this in Sacramento. Like Mike would talk after the players.

And I mean, you said, 40 minutes. I'm like, Doug Christie was probably like 120 last night. Like Monk went, Westbrook went. 120. Probably, but he was like the last to go. How about it's rare. Come on. Come on. Come on, media. Get on that, correct that. I mean, well, it's, I mean, the players come pretty quick. With all due respect, Doug Christie hasn't been coaching like Phil Jackson out there. Like, you know, let's go, coach. Come on. Come on. You're a rookie coach. So, so it is new, like the idea I've always, it's always been coach first and pretty quick. And then sometimes the players, really can linger. And I guess I was asking because a lot of times when Mike in Sacramento,

it would be players first and then, you know, he'd go. So maybe he'd just learn that habit. Or maybe to your point, he's, he's breaking down film with Dolan and, you know, going to pick and roll. Definitely Tom Tibadoe did routinely. I don't know what happened. This ain't Vinny's first time at the garden. Okay. That's number one. Number two, I don't know what happened. Let's just say that sounds very plausible because Tibbs was known to make. make sure that he, if Mr. Dolan wanted to talk about the game, he did. In fact, years ago, before the garden renovation, you could, like, there was, like, a room that you could sort of see into, like, the coaches area. And there was, like, a window on the door. And the media

started noticing that Dolan was going in there and talking to, talking to the coaches after the game. This is, like, literally 10 years ago. And maybe even longer. And one day, one or two days after it was in the paper, they mirrored, they replaced the glass with mirrored glass so that you couldn't see in there. Well, Brian, you said this was Vinny's first time of the garden. It also isn't Mike Brown's first time dealing with an owner who might want to talk some strategy postgame. He dealt with that somewhat recently in his last stop. So I'm sure he, and you know, you guys know Mike. I'm sure he's sitting there. He's like, what do you want to go through? Let's, let's go through rotation patterns or whatever. All right, story time. Yeah, here we go. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm

sorry. I apologize. Can this take place at the Palace of Auburn Hills, please? No, it was in Houston. So the late great David Benner, who is no longer with us, unfortunately, because of cancer. He was the PR, head of PR for the Pacers for decades, okay? And he was old school. And back in the 2010s, when the Heat and the Pacers were going through their wars, I spent a lot of time around Indy. I loved covering those teams. Roy Hibbert, David West, Paul George, Frank Vogel was a coach. And David Benner, there used to be this rule. I think it's still technically the rule, but nobody's pay attention to it for decades, which is that you're supposed to be 10 minutes after the game.

There's a 10 minute cooling off period, and then it's supposed to open the locker room. Well, gosh, darn it, the Pacers followed the darn rules. And 10 minutes after the game, they would open up the locker room, which, to be honest with you, probably was a little too soon, especially with that team. So one night in Houston, Pacers are there. By the way, this meant that the coach and the block room open at the same time. Vogel would come in right away. A lot of times you wouldn't get the coach, but I know where I would go,

go to that locker room. I got some great stuff out of those Pacers' locker room. Houston great road locker room also, by the way. All right. Agreed. So this was sort of the last year of that rivalry. The Pacers had like declared at the beginning of the season. that they were going to get the number one seed

because they lost in seven at the heat the year before. And they got off to a huge super fast start. Like they, I don't know, something like 25 and 5, like jumped way out in front of the heat. And in the second half of the season, the heat were walking them down, walking them down, walking them down. And they were struggling. And so they had this, you know, they had lost,

you know, they had probably lost like five or six out of seven or whatever. And they had this bad game in Houston where they got blown out. And so locker room opens up right after the, game. So in I go. There's only like two people in there. You know, Indiana doesn't have a big road traveling crew. I don't remember who the beatwriter was for the indie star at the time, but they always, always had good beatwriters, so I'm sure it was a good one. Anyway, a meeting, a player's meeting was called while I was in the locker room. Okay? Like, okay, we're going to have a meeting. So David West calls,

calls over who he thinks is like the important players. Calls over Hibbert, calls over George Hill, calls over Paul George, calls over, you know, I don't remember if Jeff Foster was still on the team. Danny Granger is still a vet on that team?

Danny Granger. I think they traded him that year. I think they just traded them. That was sort of an indication of their concern. He calls over this player's only meeting and starts having a meeting in the corner of the locker room. and like Paul George,

it may not have been Paul. It may have been somebody else notices that Lance Stevenson hasn't been called over to the meeting in the corner because Lance is over there talking, you know, some trash with somebody else. And David West is like, yeah, forget about him. We'll tell him what he needs to know.

It's like, I forget about him. I just saw Lance a few months ago. Always love seeing Lance. But like literally, I was in the locker room so fast after the game that I was there when they had a team meeting, a players only meeting. So that's pretty good. Did you write about it that night?

That's what to say. Did you write about? I definitely talked about it about how they like, you know, got the, it was pretty much the starters plus whoever the lead. It was like six, it wasn't like the whole team, obviously. It wasn't like the whole room. But it was taking place right there. I mean, if I wanted to, I probably could, I didn't get too close.

I didn't want to get thrown into the shower. Just dropped your like microphone in the middle of the game. Wendy's boom, Mike. I wasn't messing with David West. Those days are long gone. Stuff like that. So anyway, the Knicks are playing better. The whole Eastern Conference, like I got a hard time figuring out the East right now, Vinnie.

Like, you know, Milwaukee is is doing really well. They're hitting a lot of threes. They're actually making more threes than they did last year. They led the league in three point percentage last year. And then Brooke Lopez walked. and then Dame blew out his Achilles and got released. And Miles Turner, who they brought in to kind of shoot a little bit through a place, Brooke Lopez is having so far not a good shooting season.

But A.J. Green is hitting everything in sight. So they're doing good. Chicago is continuing to win. There was, they had a really good come from behind win over Philly the other night where the last seven minutes of that game, Philly basically did nothing offensively. and the Bulls, Josh Gideon, co, got him. So that was good. But like, do I trust Milwaukee to keep shooting this way?

Do I trust their offense to keep being top five? I don't know, Janice is dunking five times a game. Literally he's dunking five times a game. Maybe. Ryan Rawlins looks fantastic also, by the way. That doesn't just look like, oh, he's a nice little story. Like he looks like a rising guard in the league. Props to John Horst for stitching that team together, you know, like.

So I don't know. Vinny. This is a Doc Rivers team. This is a Doc Rivers pulling a 50 win season out of your keister when you expect absolutely nothing. Like this is what this is looks like that 2019 Clippers team, right? Like before they got Kauai. Oh, I covered the first round of that series. That's rookie Shea Gillis is Alexander. He was like defensive specialist for that team. They took the last Durant Warriors team to six in the first round. That is the I'm Kevin Durant. You know who I am series because Beverly was, you know, bothering him. Montrez Harrell.

That was a fun clipper's team. Yeah, Steve Ballmer loved that clippers team. He was rocking that arm on that sideline all the time. He loved watching that clippers team. And then that summer, they, that's what he was going. Kick in the legs. Yeah. In his plaid shirt, you know, he's worth $170 billion and he wears like $40 shirt.

Jerry West, his, the late great Jerry. West. His last great act, maybe I just disputed on this, but one of his last great acts was getting Shea Gildes Alexander on that team because Jerry West and Thad Faushey, who is, Shea's agent, essentially guided Shea from Kentucky to the Clippers. And that was an extremely, and I'm sure it was more than just, I'm sure there were other Clippers scouts who liked back then. He was just Shea Alexander, but there's known as, he was Shay, always Shay Gildis, but he's known as Shay Alexander.

That, you know, that, you know, talk about an all time, what if, you know. But, you know, Doc is, you know, that team competed every single night. It's one of the reasons they were so lovable. In fact, when the, the, the, sort of the newer clippers teams happened,

like that was sort of the issue, you know, Montrez and Beverly kind of irritated them, that they didn't compete every night like that team does. And I mean, look, the Bucer competing every night too. Doc believes, you know, like I've heard Doc say, like, I think this team can win the East. Like, I didn't believe it. But like, you know, he sold that. He sold that to Janus. Yonis believes that on some level. So that matter. Part of that is like the lack of a juggernaut in the East, right? I mean, I think we'd all agree. It's wide open in a

sense. So. And not just that. My general question is, and I don't know if you were going here, Wendy, but there's no second tier or defined tier two in the Eastern Conference where you were talking about, well, how does Milwaukee look, how does Cleveland, I mean, not Cleveland, how does Chicago look, how does Philly look, how does Detroit look, I'm sure. Like, there's no defined team that's behind Cleveland in New York as like, okay, this is who's chasing those teams. To me, that's what makes the next two and a half months really interesting in the Eastern conference because Milwaukee doesn't have the assets to make a move like they're up against the second apron right if you are one of those teams if you are say maybe the Detroit Pistons

and I'm not saying it's because it's that's a segue way but but just in general if you are a team that has the assets the picks the players to go and make an impactful personnel move because you see an opening because you're not afraid of Cleveland and New York one of those teams is going to up. Like the rosters that we see now, not going to be the rosters that we see come to trade deadline. Like let's say Orlando gets their stuff together. Atlanta's a team to watch. That's because of the trade young stuff. But if you are a team like Detroit, do you say, you know what? Let's call Danny Aange and see if we can get Danny Aange on the phone and see what it would take. It would take everything, right? Because Danny Age is going to rob you, right?

But what would it take for Laurie marketing? All right. See, Slater, we were having a nice little early season podcast. Yes. I'm sorry. Did I do something? No, no. He just, he deadlined it up.

No, he just, he poured some, he, he's like, listen, we're going to, we're going to downshift. Yes.

Yes, this is not the first time I've had this conversation. Could Detroit, okay, so first off, Detroit is six and two. And not playing well offensively.

Cade is, his numbers are ordinary. I mean, they're good, but they're like, ordinary. Jade and Ivy's not really doing much. He's not playing yet. Yeah. Jalen Duren and Isaiah Stewart are having some games.

But they're six and two. And they kind of have to look around and say what you say what you just said. And like it's not the first time it's been raised to me. They control their draft picks, right? They've got tradable contracts on their roster. You know, the, for example, the Duncan Robinson contract was, you know, they signed him, you know, is a it was a sign and trade maneuver. It was an effort to to fill in some of their three-point shooting loss. I mean, but that contract was signed to be able to be used in a trade after December. It was basically a quiet, quiet version of the comminga contract, right? I mean, it's not as much bluster, but kind of the same tool. Well, it's, it's a contract that, you know, that I don't think I've ever really seen before, which is that, I mean, maybe it's happened before, but it's, it was three

years and like 45 million, but only the first year was guaranteed. You very rarely, I mean, you see some big non-guarantees out there, but you rarely see only the first year of a three-year contract at that level be guaranteed. And then of course, and by the way, I think it's, I don't want to play. Tobias Harris is a similar deal. Yeah. Tobias Harris, I don't want to like say like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, just trade him because he plays an important role there. He's really helped them. But real talk, Tobias Harris on an expiring $26 million contract. If you want to talk about something that might happen, you know, you talk about that. contract they signed Karras Levert to in the summer. It was a two-year contract.

If they had to, very tradable. So, you know, Trajan Langdon and Dennis Lindsay, like, they think this team might be able to do something. But if you're looking for a team that can, they can, that might be sniffing Detroit's on the list. And so now you're bringing it up on November 6, Vinny. So like, you know, but, but I'm, I'm an agreement with you. I'm in agreement with you.

I think in the last two. fourth quarters, Kay Cunningham in Memphis and last night, home in Utah, so take it with a grain, 19 to fourth quarter in both games. Like he's, the overall numbers, he got up to a slow start, especially shooting. But that whole clutch thing and recognizing, oh, a game is here for the taking, I'm going to take it. Like, that is an element that, of maturity that you're seeing in him. And he's doing this without a second guy. Like, Duncan Robinson is shooting 40 from three, but on very low volume relative to today's game just because he's older and can't get to the open shots the way that he that he needs to. And their defense, I think, is really, really,

you know, really good. You can play bigger now in today's NBA. Like, you can play Jalen Duren and Isaiah Stewart together and, you know, Ron Holland and Assar Thompson. Assar Thompson, I think, guys, we're going to be seeing something here. We can pay a lot of attention to a man, Thompson, but Assar Thompson ain't far behind. But I think there's a way, there's a world for them to keep the Assar Thompson's of the world and the Ron Hollins of the world and to get a bona fide. second score that can aid Cade Cunningham. And the question you just generally have to ask Cade Cunningham, and not just Cate, not Cunningham,

but Trajan Langdon and J.B. Bickerstaff and owner Tom Gores is, are you happy with the internal growth from everybody and maybe get into the second round this year? Or do you want to go for it? Because you are looking at the Eastern saying, this is for the taking. It should maybe ask Cade Cunningham too. He's probably rising to that level where he should be in.

I actually think it's managed man. It's kind of comparable. I mean, Orlando doesn't have a player like Cade. They don't have an all-N-B-A. Well, I don't know. Well, Paulo's supposed to be that. Okay, okay.

Let me take a step back. They might. Cade has proven to be, I think, a cut above Pollo. I think Pallow can get there. But Orlando had this same sort of set of circumstances. And they went out and got Desmond Bain. Now, they liked Desmond Bain because they liked how he fits. By the way, Orlando's off to a very rough start.

They are getting no offense. We'll talk about them at a later time. But Orlando had the same sort of circumstances. And they were like, okay, we're going to go get a guy that we think matches with our group of players. You know, they've got Palo's signed long term. They've got Franz Wagner signed long terms. They've got Jaylen Suggs signed long terms.

They go, let's go get a guy who signed long term who fits our group and does that. And so I think Detroit, like I don't think, like what you're saying, I don't think you go rent a player. No. You know, you're not going to go. say, hey, let's try to do this in 25, 26 necessarily. But if you can find a player that you think fits next to Cade and next to Duren and, you know, those young guys, today is not the day where this would happen, but this is a conversation that other people are going to be having, I think,

let's put it this way. This is a conversation that Vinny brought up that smart people in the NBA are having. And I'm not that smart. It wasn't me. Like, somebody who I think is really smart said it to me this week. What about Detroit? Could Detroit get, you know, you know what should happen? Detroit should go for Player X, which I ain't going to say right now because I ain't looking for aggregation. But smart.

Is Player X a pretty spicy name? Would it? No, no, it's not a spicy name. It's a name like Desmond Bain, who you didn't necessarily see being traded, but would fit. You know, would fit with them. So, like, because, you know, we didn't see Bain getting traded. That came kind of came out of nowhere.

And they paid a premium. Well, Detroit's in position. where they could pay a premium. Because they're in good position on the aprons and because they control all their assets and they got expirings, they could do something like that. But you just had it. You just, hey, Slater. Yeah.

Vinny is a verified ESPN guy now because he had a sit down interview. Ooh. You would a sit down interview with Cade Cunningham. That's cute. Tell us about it. Oh, well, I mean, I guess that was a second way. He's not quite certified ESPN. That was the, that was the promo.

It's a new thing. It was a few days ago now, but. No, yeah, it came a few days ago. I did sit down like a couple weeks ago, actually. So it kind of left. It was one of those weird sit around for four hours days. It was a day that a bunch of rallies were being held nationwide. I'm not sure if y'all remember that day.

A lot of things were held held that day. The head coach of the team I primarily cover went to one of those. One of the questions that I posed to Kay Cunningham. And I don't know if it made the final cut. So maybe this whole thing can be repurposed. But I asked him, like, hey, you're not happy being one of the most improved guys in the league. He's like, he's like, it's not beneath me. But I consider myself somebody who should be in the conversation for MVP.

Like, I'm not shy, you know, to say that. And I think when you look at this guy in his pedigree, number one pick, only worked out for one team going into that draft. You know, the Kevin Durant's, the LeBron's, the LeBron. the Steph Curry's. They've all given him the certified stamp. Like he is of a pedigree in a way that we don't see guys being in a pedigree anymore, like homegrown, American-born players. Like that sort of thing doesn't really exist as much anymore. And I think he, I will say this guys, and you guys, see if you guys rock with me on this one. Players of today's generation who come up through the AAU program are by and large so exhausted that they don't want to be team leaders in

franchise guys when they come to the NBA. They're so, it's too much basketball. It's too much of the system. I think that's kind of why you see the Jamerans, the Zion Williams, and sort of are just out of nowhere burned out. Cade has like this diplomat element to him where he understands, I'm the franchise guy. Everything revolves around me, not in like an arrogant way. Oklahoma State.

It's got to be Oklahoma State. Maybe that's what it is, them cowboys, right? The only problem is that he's from Cade is that he's from Dallas. Like, that's the only issue with Cade is that he's a Dallas guy and he's a Cowboys fan. Like, that's the only thing. Other than that, he fits the profile of everything that we say we want out of an NBA superstar. Go to college for a year, take your team to the tournament, go to a bad franchise, lift them up year after year, and get there. And he's kind of on this trajectory where, I mean, he's, he's, if you think about him in the mode of a

or Luca Donchish in terms of Big Guard, volume, can dominate a game from a bunch of different ways. He's in that category. Maybe not at that level, but he's at that category now. Improving significantly, too. I am not ashamed to admit. I really watched the NBA through a Western Conference lens, and I tuned into two Pistons games.

Coastal elites. There we go. I tuned into two Pistons games recently, not because of the Pistons. But they were in Mexico City facing the Mavericks, and I wanted to see this situation in Dallas, which I think Windhorst is probably, you got a segment maybe coming up on the Mavericks game.

You guys, don't be getting ahead on the rundown here. This is all organic. Nothing has talked about beforehand. This is just, we just have all this information ready at our fingertips. So don't pull back the curtain. You know, I watched them, you know, close out the Mavericks in Mexico City. It was like a late night game. And then I want to see what's going on in Memphis.

It was Jaws first game post suspension. And so I'm tuning into the fourth quarter to just see the jaw situation. That's why I'm watching the game. And within that game, I think it was like a pretty fascinating juxtaposition of two teams and two star guards going in opposite directions. It's like, you know, that fourth quarter was going on. You just kind of just feel the Ja Morant era in a lot of way slipping. And within that, it was slipping that night because Cade Cunningham just seemed so stable, you know, and so on the rise and just like in control of his team and his franchise.

in his situation. And again, I'm watching this because I'm trying to watch a franchise that it feels like it's kind of going the opposite direction. And just within that, you're like, man, I'm just like, wow, Kade. Looks unbelievable in this fourth.

And it's not this stat line that we're all going to talk about the next day, but it's just you can see where it's going and you can see it's going that way because of him. It's control. That's where you see. You see the control. Jha is shooting 14% on threes. He was a 1 of 7 on Wednesday night.

All right. He's a top 10 point guard. You guys were at games working on Wednesday night. Are you, are you disputing Bontemps? You don't, Bontemps is. I get you,

I get your point that he's a top 10 talent. He's just not playing like a top 10 point. Well, that's, there's not a debate on that. You know, Bonteps and I have our Friday Intel file that we, we,

comes out every Friday and we have a big section on John Morant coming on Friday. And I spent a lot of time this week talking to people about Twamas de Sassallo. And I spent a lot of time talking. to people in Europe about him who know about him and know what he wants, and that's someone's in there. And the thing is, like, Isallo's system and Oslo himself thought this, like he thought this was absolutely perfect for Jha. He thought this was going to work out great.

Like when they made the move off of Taylor Jenkins and the, and the Noah Lerosch system to the way Isolo wants to play, that thought this was going to be perfect. And it's obviously not. and I will just say that I've seen this before with guys who come from college or overseas who have these systems or these temperaments that work over there, and there's no reason why they shouldn't work in the NBA, but for the most part they don't.

And we're still very early into it, and I'm not saying it's not, but I've been around long enough to see the Casware blue uniforms so long ago that it's now a throwback. I've been around long enough to see stuff like this. So we'll see. more hoop collective podcast after this anyway before we go while you guys were working at games on wednesday night i was watching pretty much from start to finish but definitely every second of the second half the pelicans mavericks game this was not a western conference finals preview i want to just say that right now

props to the pelicans who've crawled up off of the mat and gotten back-to-back wins and zion is now out indefinitely with a hamstring. It's his fifth significant hamstring injury, which is another topic for another day. This was a brutal game to watch down the stretch. I'm going to tell you, I can't say this like unequivocally like every possession, but generally without being an advanced scout who knows all of the play calls and whatever, I'm here to tell you, Dallas ran nothing in the fourth quarter of that game. Nothing. on offense in that game. Look, I got it. I know AD is out and that he would be a leveraging point for their offense. I know. I know that their star point guard is recovering and they're sort of

in this intermediate zone where they might be getting him back sooner than imagine and so they can't, they ran nothing and got beat on their home court by the Pelicans who were okay. Sadiq Bay like pretty much willed at home. Trey Murphy made a few plays. They were running, like they were giving the ball to Cooper flag and saying, Cooper,

see what you got. And the only way the game got down to the last minute was Daniel Gafford had a couple putbacks. He saved her best offense down the stretch of the game was Daniel Gafford putbacks. Despite all that, Cooper had a wide open 15 footer at the buzzer to force overtime.

And there was actually a funny moment. So Derek Queen, who I'm still learning about. I learned about these rookies. I don't have this long. I mean, I'm not Jonathan Gavoni. I'll never be Jonathan Gavoni. I'm still learning about these guys, but I'm learning that Derek Queen is kind of a goofball

as I watch a Pelican Swice this week. You're the one that gave me like an AJ DeBonza, like deep breakdown. Well, that is different. I've spent some time getting to know AJ and, yeah, that's different. But I certainly wouldn't tell you like I could analyze his game. In the case, you know, I'm still learning. Derek Queen's kind of a goofball. So Derek Queen, I don't know what he was supposed to do,

but he kind of botched the last possession. I think he was supposed to step up and defend Cooper. But instead he, like, backed up to defend like a lob or something. And he, like, gave Cooper Flag a wide open, like 15-foot shot. Even though they ran nothing down the stretch, they ended up with a chance to send the game to overtime. Cooper missed it. And he was furious.

Because the one thing I do know about Cooper Flagg, he's a crazy competitor. He was furious. that he missed that shot. Okay? And Derek Queen was his teammate at Mont Verde Academy in Orlando two years ago.

And this guy's got deep background breakdown. I don't know what he's up. He comes up and he's like, you know, you know that thing that people do, they do the shoulder rub. Like, you know, the Bontemps.

Bontemps is known to do it. I will agree. Bontemps is known to do it. But Cooper Flagg did not want to be touched by anybody in the world in this moment. And he sure didn't want to be touched

by the guy in the other team, even if he was his high school teammate. And so he comes up, he has just missed the last shot. And this fourth quarter has been crap offense by the Mavericks. And he's rubbing his shoulder. He's rubbing Cooper's shoulder.

Like, hey, man, how's it going? I got you. Seriously, Cooper might have hit him. And another time in place, Cooper might as swan. If this was 1975 instead of 2025, Cooper, he might have given it to him. And then after the game, and this was on NBA,

NBA, NBA put this on their Twitter. They did a jersey swap. And Derek was just, Derek Queen's had a good week, by the way. You know, he's finished the last two games they won. Derek Queen was in a great mood. He was swapping jerseys, you know, high school friends, you know, this is great. And Cooper was not amused. Like, go watch.

You can go see it. Cooper's face says it all. And he got to the post game press conference. He's like, I've never lost like this. And I'm telling you, like, I don't know what's going on. Dallas's situation right now is unacceptable. Well, can I say something about? that quick though because it's it is kind of funny where the short-term goals of the organization and certainly

of the general manager who's like under constant fire are to win now and they have a bunch of veterans who are going to be extremely upset about the fact that they're two and six but couldn't you take the long view and i know you guys have at times on this podcast and say it might be good to be two and six and to give your first overall pick a bunch of battle scars like miss jumpers and because you're building around him is it better for them to sneak in the playoffs i'm sure the veterans would love that neco harrison would love that for his job security, or would it be better to just get a top four pick in a loaded draft and rebuild around Cooper long term and get Cooper a bunch of battle scars? You tell me. Look, didn't we, I will say this. I will just zoom out just a little bit. Jason Kidd put the

the ball in the hands of Yannis onto the Kumpa. I think it was 2016 or 17 and said, Janus, you're going to be my point guard. And it was rough at times. But it aided greatly in the development of Yonis and to the Kumo to the point where two years later he's an MVP but by that point Jason Kidd had lost his job and there was all this controversy around that right but he got the battle scars from it. It just looked ugly

in the moment. Is that what we're seeing with Cooper Flagg right now? Like no he's not a natural point guard or anything like people know that's not what it is and let's be honest Kyrie I haven't given a natural point guard either and I'm not saying that to crap on

Kyrie I'm just saying even once Kyrie comes back If he comes back this season, it's not like they're just going to hand the ball to Kyrie. And Kyrie's going to handle the ball for 35 to 40 minutes a night, setting up the offense. Like, that's not the best use of his talent either. Maybe you're just, maybe you're trying to hold water. Maybe it's a bad plan, right? It could just be an overall bad plan. But I understand the thought of, hey, if you're going to have to make these decisions one way or the other anyway.

And it's going to hurt, whether you're on the wing or whether you're at the top of the key, it's going to hurt. Last night's game was going to hurt either way. just because of the rosters that have been compiled, Wendy. I'm not that hurt about Cooper Flag getting the scars now. I'm okay with that because I think it pays off later. Yeah. Generally, I think you're right, although Janus wasn't 18 when they asked him to do it.

I keep comparing Cooper Flagg situation to LeBron's situation when he was a rookie where that team was just up a creek and they handed LeBron the reins and he was totally ill-equipped. And by the way, that team started 4 and 15. But that team didn't mind starting 4 and 15. So that's where I was going. So that's a thing. And by the way, Cooper's comment, like Jackson put up the numbers.

His, he lost three games in all of the, he lost three games, three or four games in all of high school. And then he lost four at Dukes and the Mazzar two and six. LeBron, I think, lost seven games in high school. And the cats I said started four and 15 that year. And there was just, LeBron had a mess. There were a lot of nights like this, that LeBron, you know, know, but the circumstances of the team were completely different. And so I'm just saying like, and by the way, what ended up happening with that team was

midway through that year, LeBron's rookie year, they went out and traded for a point guard and everything worked so much better. And yeah, down the line, LeBron was ready and I guess he learned some lessons from that. But, you know, I'm not going to say that a game in the first week of November defines the season. I'm just telling you, like, that was a rough situation there. Cooper was out there trying to do something and he was in the deep end of the pool thrashing around, which again, it's fine for an 18 year old. Like, that's all cool. But like, give him some help somewhere somehow. Otherwise, you're going to be 4 and 15. Yeah. And that would be really, really bad for a lot of

the current employees of the Dallas Mavericks players, front office, all that, for sure. But I could hear an argument that the 10-year plan of this franchise is, it might not be horrific for the direction that the for the franchise well you're talking about a 10 year plan they're on like a 10 minute plan they're two their two best players are in their 30s all right guys i really enjoyed it thank you very much for uh we're gonna we're gonna make this a thing i like you too i might keep you guys around in the collective i'm i'm making it a goal anytime us three are on a podcast together i'm somehow gets y'all to do at least one central division story time i'm not that old slater I wouldn't have predicted the Pacers were going to be the one today, but that's, it counts.

I loved covering that team. You know, another quick story from being the Pacers locker room. Got two. I don't remember which year it was. It might have been that year. But the Piquit played the Pacers in the conference finals. And on the last play of the game, I think it was game one, LeBron got a layup to the rim. I remember it.

Yeah. One at the, like, right, made within a second. to win the game. Off an inbound. It was like, yes. And Frank Vogel had taken Roy Hibbert out of the game. And once again,

the Pacers, much respect, they've been, 10 minutes, that locker room is open. And in Miami, there is not really, there's a coach's office,

but it's really small. And it was back then. And the video coordinator was set up in the middle of the locker room. And so I come in the locker room, and Frank Vogel is with the video coordinator on the screen watching the play. watching the last play for the first time.

And I go, he goes, he's watching it. I'm watching him watching. He goes, run it again, run it again, run it again. And I'm watching him take in, watching how they botched the design of the last play. And he just put his head in, as a championship head coach now,

I'm not trying to take a, you know, this guy got him with the conference finals. And he just puts his head in his hands. And he was like, F. Because I, you know, I got to see that role. I mean, it's really awesome that I got to see that. And by the way, you remember a couple of years ago when the, when Derek White was with the Celtics and the Celtics pulled that game out of their rear end when he hit that putback layup? Yeah, yeah.

It was on the heat, right? Yeah, it was on the heat in the conference finals. And that was where, you know, Jimmy Butler, like they went up to Boston and they had that amazing win. And they come down to Miami and it looks like they're dead and they win game six, force game seven. So Jerich White hits this putback layup, and everybody goes to the postgame press conference, and they open the locker room. And I'm now in the Celtics locker room, and there's nobody in there. And the layup happened like seven or eight minutes earlier. Maybe 12 minutes earlier, okay?

These are rare times. And I know so many of those Celtics players well because those guys were on Team USA. You know, Marcus Smart and Derek White and Jalen Brown and. Jason Tatum. I know all those guys from hanging out with him in China, okay, you know, being in Manila and stuff like that.

So I'm in there, and Derek White hasn't seen the play yet. He hasn't seen the play. And Worldwide Wob, our man, our man on X, had tweeted out like a four box of four different angles. And I remember giving Derek my phone

and getting, letting him see the four different angles of the play. He hadn't seen that, you know, they didn't have the replay there yet, or the guys hadn't seen it on their phones yet. He got to see the four angles of like the shot of his life to that point. It's like those moments are cool.

They're few and far between because they don't open locker room. And there's reasons for that. But I'm just saying. That's pretty cool. It's not as bad as people think. It's still open. It's still raw. Still fresh.

You cover the Golden State Warriors, Anthony Slater. That's a different world than the rest of us near mortals. It's 2025. Come cover a Warriors road trip. And listen, I'm just saying like all the. And I told all these, I wrote all that story that night. Like, you know, the storytelling gets better with access. That's my point.

So, all right. Thank you, Slater. Thank you, Vinny. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you for watching and listening to Whoop Collective all week long. And we'll talk to you guys next week.