Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Chris Sullivan on Broadway, Red String Theory, and This Is Us

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

Chris Sullivan [The Knick, This Is Us] talks to Rachel and Olivia about his Broadway calling, Chicago (the city and the musical), and slow dancing at Kinko’s. They also discuss the red string theory, alcoholism, and the immense impact of This Is Us.To hear more from Chris Sullivan, check out his new podcast That Was Us, hosted by Chris and This Is Us-co-stars Mandy Moore and Sterling K. Brown. Available wherever you get your podcasts.Broad Ideas is supported by OSEA. Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code BROAD at OSEAMalibu.com.Broad Ideas is supported by Quince. Go to Quince.com/ideas for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.Broad Ideas is supported by Tropical Smoothie Café. Visit one of Tropical Smoothie Cafe’s 1400+ locations or order online or through their app.Broad Ideas is supported by IQBAR. Get 20% off all IQBAR products. Text IDEAS to 64000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yellow, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, hear stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast on HBO Max, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes when the way of Rachel's little brain,

all these thoughts are swirling, round and round inside to join us on this journey as we take a little ride. We'll talk about dogs and kids and things. We'll talk about chicks and tampon strings. We'll talk about boys. Because people die. Hello, everybody.

Welcome to Broad Ideas. Yay. We're flipping the rolls today. Chris, we're so happy you're here. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming out. And that super cool car, I just have to give a shout out. Yeah, it's my daily driver.

It really is. It's just what you roll around in. I love it. I love it. It's the Pearson Family Waggeneer in 1990 Jeep, Grand Waggoner. Yeah. And yeah, when the show was wrapping up, I knew they were going to get rid of them. And I was like, what are you doing those?

And they said, we're probably just put them in stores where I was like, well, I'll buy one. No way. Yeah, it was like the only kind of classic car that my wife had ever been like a little turned on by. Absolutely. Yeah. And so we have two classic cars in the family, and that's the one that has the car seats in the back. I saw that car seat. I did.

I was like, it's a real family man. That's right. But I'm really jealous of that car. Me too. I know. And I like that it was the actual car. Yeah. And I'm surprised.

It's a nice memento. It is. I'm surprised I'll let you. I will tell you it is a conversation starter. It turns Los Angeles traffic into a friendly place. Oh, yeah. Do people recognize it from the show? No, they just love that car.

Just because the car. Yeah. Like people remember it. It's old enough to be unique, but it's not so old that people don't remember it from their childhood. Totally. Yeah. I do.

Yeah. Me too. Speaking of conversation starters. Yeah. Tell me this. So this red thing. This is really a thing. So we have these girls that were close to, and our friend Sarah told us story about the red string.

Okay. And I remember being like, okay, right? And then I was doing laundry and I picked up a red string. I was like, this is supposed to mean something, but I don't remember what. I'll come back to that, right? Then someone sent me like a script and it was titled Red String an hour later. And I was like, that's fucking weird, right? So I go on Google and I'm like, what is this red string theory?

Right? And it starts to talk about all the different things it represents in all the different religions. Like in Kabbalah, you know how they wear the red string. And then in Chinese tradition, they have this like old mystic, is that the word? Whatever. They have something really important, okay? Okay. Where the theory is that you have a red string attached to your pinky, an invisible red string that binds you to your soulmate.

Interesting. Right. And that when you see it, it's like no matter what circumstances happen in life, that red string will bring you back together. And so we just did a live show where we put it on every one of our audience members saying like this red string represents like the collective. Sure. And your soul groups and who you're traveling with and all that. So when you walk in wearing it, one can only assume. One has to assume.

They have to assume we were meant to meet. To meet. And then pulled. Hold by this string. My red string is not on today. It's in the house. We were not. Yeah.

I bet it's somewhere in the house. It is in the house. What do you think of that? It's interesting. listening to a couple of podcasts on the way over here, and they were talking about the, you know, the connected nature of everything and kind of a one, a one consciousness that exists amongst all living beings and they're very broad ideas. Wow. Wow. I didn't even plan that. No, you really did take over today. That I can get behind, especially when I am living,

in my most, when I'm living in my least anxious self, I can feel those strings, those connections, those poles, those tugs, those, when I can live in the present moment, I let those connections become more prevalent. I can hear them. I can hear my friends. I can hear, I can feel them in my heart. And it's happened recently where I was like, I thought about this person. three times in the last two days. I need to call them. You know, those little connections. Yeah. I love that. And I think you should share what your red string actually is. Oh, this is from a Hot Wheels car launcher. Yeah. My three and a half year old, his name is Bear. Oh, that's so much. And he pulled this off a launcher and was chewing on it. And so I put it on about two months ago. And it fits, it's not too tight, not too loose. It fits in a way that I completely forget that it's on. And you're always connected to bear.

And I'm always, every time I look down, I'm like, oh, I love that. I love that. Now, your daughter's, so I was looking at up. Yes. How do you say your daughter's name? IFA. Ifa. It's Irish.

It's an Irish name. It is a very, very popular name in Ireland. Okay. It's like Jenny in Ireland. Right. But there are a lot of vowels. In fact, it's all vowels except for the F. Right.

And it was a hot point for my wife and I for like months. Yeah. It's a name that we heard on our honeymoon. Right. When we were married in 2010, we went on our honeymoon in 2011. Uh-huh. And we heard this name, and it is a kind of historic, famous historic Irish woman who was this incredible beauty and this incredible kind of had this incredible intellect and kind of duped their enemies into submission. It was like a really, it was just an amazing story.

And so the name always stuck with us. But yeah, when you spell a name, A-O-I-F-E, rate, my wife was like losing her. She was losing your shit. She's like, no one's going to be able to say it. No one's going to be able to say it. And luckily, right out of the gate, we got the worst possible case scenario out of the way. She was like a month old. She was born in October.

And in December, we went to this Christmas tree lighting ceremony at my alma mater. I went to LMU here. Oh, you did? Yeah. And the alumni people get my whole family named. tags and we sent the whole list. And the lady was like, Chris, Rachel, Bear, Adolf. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I said, what? Take another look. Like, you think, you think that there's someone walking around. Like, even if you thought, even if you thought it said Adolf,

you would look again. You'd be like, that can't. You can't. That cannot be. Oh my God. Your daughter. Your daughter. I didn't even correct her. I was just like, I'll take it. Rachel, I saw Rachel was holding the baby, and Rachel was like, she rolled her eyes and just walked away. Oh, no. Oh, no.

But yeah, the more, the more, like we thought Bear was, bear came to Rachel in a dream. Really? Yeah. She was during her pregnancy, feeling a lot of anxiety, and she would have this recurring dream about a polar bear that she was stuck alone on a frozen tundra, wind whipping snowstorm, can't see anything. And this polar bear would come out of the storm and like wrap itself around her and like keep her safe and warm. And so one day she was like, how about bear? I said, that's it. And we thought that was a fairly like unique. But as soon as we named him bear, there's like another one at his school already. Yeah.

Seriously? Kate Winslet's son is named bear. And sure enough, Iifa, same thing. And I think, well, no. are like, EFA too? I feel like all of a sudden it's like, yeah, my, I, I, I, people like I dated a girl named Yifa or my, my sister's name is Yifa. Now have people like seen the name and got it right? Yes, but only because they've heard it before.

Got it. Got it. I feel like, I mean, not to be superficial, but I feel like you have to be pretty with that name. You're like, Eifa. Yeah. It's just such like, it's such like a pretty girl name. She's stunning.

You know, she's got to be. She's stunning. Yeah. Oh my God. So sweet. Wait. When did you meet your words? your wife, how long have you been with her?

We met in 2007. That's a long time ago. Yeah. And she was, she's only produced one short film in her life, and it was this short film. She was producing for a mutual friend of ours who was this writer, director, actor. And we met on set. We were both dating other people at the time, so there was zero, like, conversation, intrigue. Like, we both looked terrible.

She was, like, so worn out. I was dressed like a line cook. Like, there was nothing. But the magical part of it comes four months later when that director has a birthday party. And I'm walking up to this bar in Chicago. We met in Chicago. And this director comes running out of the bar up to me. He says, Rachel, Rachel Reichert is single now.

And I was like, and I was like, who is that? I was like, I don't know who you're talking about. He's like, my producer. And I was like, still like, like, she had never mentioned me again. I had never mentioned her again. But for some reason, this director was like excited about this idea. And then I walked in and I saw her and I was like, oh. And I asked her out that night.

You did. And she blew me off. Oh. A lot until I thought I was like she canceled like a few dates. And I was like, what's going on? She keeps saying, yeah. but then keeps canceling. And then like the third time when she canceled,

she's like, my boss just called. I have to go to Kinkos, if you remember Kinkos. Of course. I have to make 10 copies of this presentation and take them to my boss's house. It was like 7 o'clock at night. And I was like, that sounds like a lie. You said that to me?

And she laughed. Yeah. She was like, okay, great, I'll go with you. I'll come with you. Yeah, good for you. And so we went to Kinko's and we slow danced in Kinko's to Purple Rain. No.

By Prince. And that was your wedding song. No. No. It totally fucking should have been, okay? It should have been. You really need a do-over. I put it up there.

You are the best thing by Rayla Montaigne. Oh, yeah. It was a wedding song. You slow danced in Kinkos. Yeah. It's a purple rain. Yeah. How?

I mean, did you take the lead on that? I did. Yeah, that's what I wanted to know how it happened. Nobody was in there. There was like more Kinko's employed. And there were, I mean, it was like four employees and the two of us. And we're standing around like, well, now what? And all of a sudden it came on.

And I was like, yeah, fucking purple rain. And she was like, oh. I was like, and I just kind of sidled up and we started slow dancing. And then, yeah. Wow. Yeah. It wasn't awkward at all. It was.

It was. It was awkward. But that was kind of the point. The point, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I just, yeah, I just get fascinated. by relationships when your career, like obviously you were working back in the day.

But what happened to you with This Is Us? Yeah. And navigating that in partnership. Yeah. I'm always very curious about that. Yeah, it was because when we met, I was a theater actor and a commercial actor in Chicago. Yeah. And in Chicago, that's a living.

Yeah, totally. Like if you are operating at the highest level in Chicago, you can pay. mortgages. You can buy a house. You can put your kids through school. It's amazing. Like, it's an affordable town, at least it was then, it's an affordable town. You know, I was living at the time I was living by myself in a nice big studio apartment for 600 bucks a month. Wow. In a nice, you know what I mean? Like that type of living. But when you partner up with somebody who is a business lady, like she is a boss, right? And I had to like, we had to really talk like, you understand like the life I have chosen for myself is going to be crazy.

Right. Like there's going to be a lot of ups and downs. There's going to be times of feast and famine, all of these things. And sure enough, like, like, it's going to be, it's un, we have to go. Like, where the job is. Like, certainly we get to a point where we can make decisions and start saying no to things. But it's, that's a long ways off. Right.

And sure enough, like four months before we got married, I got cast in a Broadway show. Do you guys ever do the artist's way? Yes. Do you do it in a group or do you do it by yourself? I did it with three people, two other people. Yeah. It has to be done in a group. I think so.

The accountability and the exploration. Yeah. The, you know, do you know the woman who wrote it is a famous, is a famous AA. I do know this. Right. And she kind of like modeled the whole thing after the steps, right? And so actors, if you know anything about the 12 steps, the actors who have that book, who have tried to do it alone, everyone's like, yeah, I tried it.

I got to about week four. Yeah, it's like doing AA alone. And put it up on the shelf. And I was like, yeah, week four is fucking hard. Like the self-inventory, like going into your history, all of these things is very difficult. but we were doing that in Chicago together. And I was doing with Rachel and like seven of our friends. And the magic that came out.

Two people in Chicago from that artist's way group ended up on Broadway within the same year. That's insane. Wow. That algorithm. From Chicago. It's like that's not, how does that even happen? Like certain people moved to Thailand and started their film careers. It was just crazy.

But sure enough, in my morning. pages. I was like, I don't know why I feel this. There's no reason I should feel this. I feel like I'm done here. Like, I feel like the next, I could show you the pages. It's insane. I feel like the next step is Broadway, which is an insane thing. Wow. Wow. Yes. For someone in Chicago to be saying. Like, there was no reason. And I didn't know why I had that feeling. And sure enough, four months before we got married, I get this phone call from a, uh, from a company director of a play I did in Chicago who knew a casting director in New York who was looking for football player-sized actors for this play called Lombardi about Vince Lombardi. Oh, yeah.

And she said, well, if you're looking for football player-sized actors, you should see Chris Sullivan. And she said, well, we've already had, we're already in callbacks. But if he wants to fly himself out here, we'll see him. And so I borrowed, I had to borrow $400 from my parents at the time because a plane ticket like 24 hours beforehand. Right. Yeah. And so flew out there and met with Tommy Kale, which, he's the director of Hamilton now, got the callback, got the job. And so this is a long way to talk about partnership.

But like to tell my wife who were about to get married. married in four months. Hey, guess what? Five days after we get married, I have to move to New York. We get to move to New York. Well, she's the only one with a job. Oh, shit. Like, she had a job in Chicago. What was she doing? She was working with a medical device company. Oh, she had a joby job. Like a good job. A joby job. Yeah, real job. Yeah, a job that if were we to be married would be the job in the house. And so we're trying to plan this wedding. We're trying to figure out what the fuck we're going to do.

Because we can't get married and then go long distance. That doesn't work. You can't quit your job. I can't not take a Broadway show. Absolutely not. So what do we do? And we toiled and we toiled and we toiled. And one day she got a phone call.

No. From her boss. Stop it. That said, hey, we need you, can you run some interviews for us? We are essentially looking to hire your position in New York. No, fucking. I just got chills. See?

And she said, okay, well, the position has been filled. And then we guys like, what are you talking about? She'll take it. I'll do it. And I'll hire my replacement here in Chicago. You can't. And so we got married and literally five days later packed up the car. and drove to New York and moved in with a roommate.

No, no. One of my oldest friends from high school who was living there. Yeah. Because we're like, how do you afford it? How do you afford it? How do you, for anyone it doesn't know, to move into a $2,000 a month apartment in New York is like first, last security deposit, and then they have these broker fees that are 10 to 15% of the annual rent. So it was like $20,000 to rent an apartment. Shit.

And we're trying to plan a wedding. Oh, my God. And so we moved in with our good friend, Victoria. Oh. And lived with her for eight months. Really? As newlyweds? Which worked out great because Rachel became a quickly learned what it meant to be a theater widow, which is all be gone six nights a week.

So enjoy, when you're off work, I'll be at the theater. But she had Victoria. And they became best friends. They became best friend. And they still are. And they still are. I love that. What a story.

Yeah. I love that so much. Yeah. And so the ups and downs. Yeah. And then did she say, so then it went on to, didn't, you did Chicago. I did. The musical.

Yeah. Which is even more connected. It's like you moved from Chicago to then Chicago. Listen. Also, I got, I got my, I got an agent in New York. And at the first meeting, they said, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I've never done professional musical theater, but my audition song is Mr. Cellophane from Chicago.

So if they're ever looking for a new Mr. Celophane, I could go into that show tomorrow. And like six weeks later, he called him. He's like, yeah, they're casting. And you got it. I got it. There's been a whole series of these things that happened that lined up. Like, I got offered Chicago the musical, but I was already doing this Broadway play that I was contracted to.

And then right when I was like, I don't know what to do, that show got canceled. And I had three weeks off between the end of that show and the beginning of the next one. Wow. And yeah. Support for Broad Ideas comes from Osea. Do sense evoke memories and transport you back to being on the beach during your favorite vacation? I love the feeling when a product instantly transports me back. There's nowhere else I'd rather be than on a beach on vacation.

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essentials from quince. Go to quince.com slash ideas for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash ideas to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash ideas. During that time, did you have any, because I'm always like, I'm big into figuring out how to align, right, with what you want. Like, how do you think you aligned with those opportunities. Like, were you struggling through it? Were you, did you have an unwavering faith? Like, what the hell?

I mean, there is no, I think unwavering faith is probably nonexistent. I would not trust anyone's faith that was unwavering. Jim Carrey supposedly has unwavering faith. What? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've heard interviews with him recently. Yeah.

And I love everything he's saying. where he has landed is a different, it's a different plane. It's a different frequency. It's on a different plane. Agreed. And it's not, I don't think it's comprehensible, comprehensible. Comprehensible. Comprehensible. Comprehensible. I'm just like all of them sound right. Yeah. Any of those. Unless you also arrive there. Correct. He could tell you all about it. It's experiential. You have to have experience. Yeah. But, To answer your question, I think it had to do with pushing myself in as many creative directions as possible so that when any opportunity was presented, that my heart rate did not elevate. Does that make sense?

Oh, I love that. I've never heard anyone say that before of you? No, no, never. Never. So like when I go into an audition, my only goal is to make sure that my heart, heart rate does not go up. Wow. Because it used to like pound out of my chest.

Sure. Of course. And I would try to sing and I'd sing off key and had some really embarrassing moments. And so like whatever I need to do to train myself to keep my heart rate down is part of it. So it's a lot of, a lot of in my free time doing things that scare me, right? Identifying what's scary and then trying to do it. So in New York, I was doing this play and I would work two hours a night. And then all this days, these days free to do what?

Right. To do what? And so we started another artist way group in New York. We need to do that again. I'm telling you, we had like nine, ten people at this time. Yeah. This was still the time where we were meeting in bars. And we had this huge round table in the back of this bar where we'd meet.

And so I started, I've always wanted to be a musician. I've written the first two lines of a thousand songs, crumpled up, throw it away. And so the exercise became. writing a song a day. Instead of writing morning pages, I would wake up every morning and write a song. I love that so much. And then I had all this free time,

and I had a private dressing room in a theater that was soundproof. And so by the end of every day, I would record that song. Same. While learning to play the ukulele. Oh, my God. It was called The Eucolalee Odyssey.

And in 30 days, I wrote 30 songs. That turned into an album. Then somebody said, do you want to come play at this cafe once a month? And I was like, no. But yeah, I guess I should go do that. And so I would go play guitar at this cafe, which got my heart rate down around the guitar and around performing and around singing in public. So that when, you know, once the musical, I had to audition for that, that audition was ready to go.

Fine. It's just you in the room then. Right. Right. Right. And so as far as like my listening so. It's just fucking amazing. It really is.

A different way. Yeah, to approach. And I've ever heard it explained. There's, I am full of so much fear. I waver a lot. And so the, the idea behind any of it is to push through. Yeah. And it's kind of the hard part I have about living in L.A.

Like in Chicago or New York, there's all these opportunities to try something. to go sing at someone's cabaret show or hey you want to do a day long workshop of a new musical? All these chances to fail and to fail fast and to fail better and to like pick yourself up and move on to the fucking next thing

and do it. You can kind of do it in private and it's over and it's done. And in LA it just feels, everything else feels so spread out. Yeah. And now I'm older and I have kids so it's not like I can just drop things

and go do that. Yeah. But yeah, my wife has been doing it. She just took like a stand-up comedy class. No way. And did five minutes of stand-up. We were supposed to do that. I was just thinking that right before you said that, the body thing came into my head.

Yeah. And it's therapy and it's meditation and it's this interesting exercise because she's had two kids in the last four years. And it's like, okay, time for me to like reclaim myself. Yes. And shoot, I don't care how she started taking I keto. She's like, I just need... You guys are the shit. You guys really are.

She's... I believe she is. She's a boss thing. I really believe it. Yeah. But yeah, in six weeks, she took this... There's a comedy... It's where we're doing our podcast.

Oh, my goodness. At, they have a big theater. It's called The Crow. It's in Santa Monica. It's Comedy Club. Friends of mine own it. They have a big theater downstairs. Name of this little theater upstairs

where we built our studio. How cute. And so she took this six-week class with Nicole Blaine, who's the owner there, who walked her through in six weeks writing five minutes of stand-up, and then she did it, and it was like she'd been doing it for a decade. Oh, my God. But the whole process of it was very hard.

She was like, so what do you want to talk about? And she kind of put her through the artist's way, writing routine. And she had to, like, delve into some, like, weird parts of her life that were vulnerable and scary and eventually hysterical. What I love about what you guys are doing, you guys are alive. Trying. You know?

Like, it really, I have so much respect for that because there are a lot of people that are unhappy or want more, struggling, and this and that, and stay kind of like, me. Yeah. Don't do anything. Yeah. Like, this is very, it's very tactical,

like, doing things that scary, I just asked my therapist about that the other day because I was like sometimes I get confused about flow. Yeah. And there's certain things that are really easy and I'm in flow and it all works, right? But then when I just do that, I'm not pushing myself outside of my comfort zone. So I'm not growing. Right.

It's just flowing. Right. And she was like, exactly, you flow all you want. But if you're not doing something constantly to stretch outside of your comfort zone, You can't grow. There has to be resistance. There has to be something you're doing that's matching that, right? Right.

It's true. I mean. I'm just over here, like, what can I? It's just so inspiring, though, just to see, like, when you're in sync and in your partnership, you guys are totally synced up and even, like, you know. Yes and no. Like, when I first moved here to do this as us, we were in rough shape. So you moved out here for the show?

Yeah. Okay. And there was a lot of work over like the last six years because we were living these parallel lives, right? I see. And we for all of our codependencies, we were trying to take care of each other, which felt wrong to us. And recently, we had heard that the best way for me to take care of her is to take care of myself and vice versa. Right. And that has changed things.

For sure. Quite a bit. Yeah. And you blew up on a level that. I would imagine you didn't see coming. No. Like that show, first of all, I just want to say, like, that was the first time I saw you. And you just, we all fell in love with you.

Truly. It's like it was a remarkable moment in time being like, well, everyone was so fantastic. Yeah. But you in particular, there was just this relatability that felt comforting. Like, you showed up in this way that. We all just loved you. And that has to be something to navigate in a relationship where you come on the scene and it's like all of a sudden your whole entire life changed, right? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, there were a lot of things at play there. Like, we were working on the show so much during that time. And you're familiar with like the cycles of filming and then to press and that press. rolls into awards, rolls right into the next season. It's just like, oh, oh, this never stops. Right. And so it wasn't even really until the show was fully over that we kind of were able to take a full step back, which is part of the reason Mandy and Sterling and I have come together to like, we need to process what just happened. What did just happen there? Like this show,

this show changed everything and not just for us. You know, we were hearing from our fans that They were starting to rewatch the show and was like, we should rewarned the show. Right. And go through it with them. But yeah, it was an odd, there was an odd change, but it was slow enough for Rach and I to evolve along with it, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That show changed my life. Go ahead.

No, I was going to say, how many years has it been since you stopped filming? Two. Two, okay. So you had bear during the show. We had bear during the lockdown. Oh. Rachel was pregnant. We were on our baby moon when Trump shut the borders down.

Where were you? Switzerland. Oh, my God. So we were. Although I probably would have rather been there. We were like, we were in Zermat, which is where the Matterhorn is. Have you been? No.

It's this little tiny town. You can't drive to it. park at the bottom of the mountain. This train takes you up there. How cool. All the transportation up there is like golf carts with snow tires. That's fun. And we're like, what if bears just born here? And then he can be Swiss and we'll just live in the mountains. That's nice. But it was, it was the world had already started, the pandemic had already started. And we had had a trip planned to Japan. And I don't know if you remember, but Japan was the first country to be hit. Extremely, extremely, extremely hard. And so we, yeah,

We, Rachel, Rachel Googled zero infections, and it landed on Iceland and so that's where we went. No way. For our two-week, whatever. And then Rachel's sister is our travel agent, and she called us at 3 o'clock in the morning in our hotel. It was like, you need to wake up. We need to book your, re-book your flights, and we need to get you home because shit's falling apart. And sure enough, we re-booked in the middle of the night and booked on points. and were able to get everything organized.

And by the time we woke up the next morning, airlines were no longer accepting airline miles, and our flights would have been $11,000 a piece. Woof. One way. One way to get home. Oh, my God. Wow.

Wow. And so on the other side of it, it was for as traumatic as the pandemic was for everyone, including us. I mean, our marriage during the pandemic was. a nightmare. Yeah, it's tough. It was like a bizarre sci-fi movie where every day I had to come to the same room and deal

with my same annoying bullshit. And my wife and I had to have the same argument in the same room, sitting in the same chairs. But on the flip side of that, we got to have this baby. And we got to like hunker down and nest and sleep. Blessing to me. However we want. I mean, that would be ideal. And look, not to say, but like if you're going to have a baby and there's nothing else you can do, that's pretty magical.

No one could come visit. No one could come visit. That's the best part. It was just you guys. Like, it was kind of like, yeah, it was like a psychedelic sleepover. It was awesome. I love how you put it that way. That is hilarious.

Because we were out of our minds, but it was really beautiful. That is. Wow. That's so crazy to me. And like not having to juggle that really, you know. How old is your babe? She's not. Nine.

Yeah. Do you have kids? Two. Two boys. I have a five-year-old and an eight-year-old. Excellent. Yeah. They're the best.

It's the best. What was I going to say? My little one said the cutest thing today I told Rachel. My tiny one has special needs, whatever. The older one, we get in the car and I say, I love you to the little one. And I said, and I love Elliot and I love Daddy, and I love, and I'm naming all these things. And he gets like super grumpy because he thought I wasn't including him. I was like, no, I love you so much.

And his brother goes, Shepard, we all love you so much. You're the main character. I know, I know. His older brother. You're the main character. You're the main character. And you know what? End of podcast.

He really is. He's just, it was just so generous. I was like, yeah, I was like, that's so generous. Talk about endowing your child with a purpose. I know. Oh, I know. And boy. No kidding.

I know. This kid. We're like, we couldn't have named him better if we tried. You know, and then Elliot, it's like, yeah, you're the good guy. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. You're that guy. You're that guy.

Going back to This Is Us, though, for a moment. That show changed my life. How so? For real. So one night, so every week my mom would come over and sleep over. I had just had Elliott. We would watch it. She made her week.

I mean, her day of the week to sleep over so we could watch this as us. Oh, wow. Yeah, no, it was a thing. And one night we're watching, and she had given up a baby for adoption when she was 19. Wow. So one night I went up there, and we never talked about it like we knew. You know, one night I heard her in my bedroom crying. And I went in there and I was like, what's going on?

And she's like, this show has my heart so open. And I just wonder where my son is and if I'll ever meet him. And so I got on 23 of me. Sure. And yeah, he's in our life now. No way. Yeah. All happened through watching this as us.

Wow. Isn't that wild? That is wild. Mm-hmm. It's real. It is 100% real. You have to come on the podcast and tell that story. Oh, my God.

Yeah. It's a beautiful story. That's incredible. It's incredible. And they're close. Come on. I mean, that's the thing that we've realized in hindsight. We knew it was happening as it was happening, but in hindsight, we've really realized that the show, people call it the sad show, right?

The crying show, the tissue show. But the point is, is that it's a show about grief in all of its forms. forms, right? And with that, especially how difficult it is to grieve when you're feeling so much joy. Right? And you're feeling both of these things at the same time, and you don't want to discount

either. You don't want to dampen your joy to grieve, and you don't want to allow your grief to kill this light, right? Which you especially see through Mandy's character. Who's this, you know, who is the center of the show, right? She is the through line. This

woman grieving. and raising these children and dealing with all of these things. And the show is a handbook, an instruction manual on how to live, on how to live and how to have healthy relationships, even when there is death, even when there is addiction, even when there is trauma and anxiety and food issue, whatever it is, that the show in the long, run taught the audience and taught me.

Like there were eerie similarities to my character through the whole thing, anxiety, depression, him dealing with food, me dealing with alcohol, like all of these things. There were times in my life where I was like literally in my head going, how do I, I don't know how to deal with this. And just thinking of the show and be like, well, that's how the show handled it. That seems like a good place to start. That's a good idea, right? Yeah, I'm going to use this.

Well, that show to me is one of the only shows that has ever looked like real life to me. Because I grew up with all of it. How long sober are you? Coming up on eight years. Amazing. I'm 13 years. Excellent. Yeah.

It's the best decision you can possibly make in the world. Yeah. Right? Yeah, I started like three months before we started filming that stuff. Oh, my God. So it was like. Wow. Had you already booked it?

Yeah. Well, I shot. the pilot still drinking. Oh my God. What led to the sobriety? I mean all kinds of things. All kinds of things. There was the amount of alcohol that I was drinking, you know, it was just, it had me living

in a, it had me living my life outside my values. And I was going to, I was about to gain everything and lose everything. And I had to make a decision. Wow. I have all kinds of trauma and things that I needed to deal with, and I had been trying forever to solve it with ignoring it and drinking. Of course. And it took me 35 years to realize, oh, this isn't it working.

Right. This is not, the problem's not actually going away. Right. You know. Right. Right. Yeah. Broad Ideas is supported by Tropical Smoothie Cafe.

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And now our special podcast listeners get 20% off all IQ bar products, plus get free shipping. To get your 20% off just text ideas to 64,000. Get your discount. Text ideas to 64,000. That's I-D-E-A-S to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply C-terms for details. I think for some people, too, It's one of the ways I say it is like there's so many options for dealing with trauma, mental health, healing, all of that stuff. But if I had alcohol as an option, I'm always going to choose that option first. Right? Right. And so you remove that one thing.

Yeah. And then all the other options are now on the table. Sure, sure, sure. But I would never choose any of those options if I could choose alcohol. Yeah. Right? And so it's like you trade your whole life for one. beverage, or you gain your whole life by trading that beverage.

Right. Right, right, right. It's that small of the, yeah. And you get sober and you feel better. You get sober and you feel better. You feel everything better. You feel pain better. You feel anger better.

You feel everything because it all comes to the surface and becomes clear, right? And there were all of these things where I was like, oh, it's not even, like, as I worked my way back, it's like, it's not alcohol. it's sugar. Oh, same cease. And then I was like, oh, it's not sugar, it's anxiety. Like, I'm actually addicted to the feeling of anxiety. And anxiety feels like home.

Anxiety feels safe. Exiety feels like the norm. And what makes me feel more anxious than being high off my mind on little sugar? Like when I was in junior high, I would gamble for quarters for the soda machine. and by the time I was in college, I was drinking 100 ounces of Dr. Pepper a day. No. Yeah, 100 ounces. That is not okay.

It's not. But at the time... A day. That hurts. That hurts. Yeah. But at the time, I was a collegiate athlete. So, I could.

Right? Could do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was playing tennis five, six, seven hours a day. Oh, wow. And my body was still in that... teenage burning process, right? Sure.

Right. That I stopped playing tennis. Oh. And quickly, like, what was happening with that amount of sugar was, like, insane. I hadn't even started drinking yet. Holy shit. Like my freshman year. And then I kicked soda and then I literally kicked soda.

I went cold turkey and passed out during a midterm. Because of the sugar addiction. Because of withdrawals from. Yeah. Had to be taken to the health center to get an IV. Oh, my. When I say I was addicted to sugar, people were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, no, no, no.

No, that's real. Sugar is fucking powerful. Which is also all alcohol is. It's sugar with a numbing agent. Yeah, I remember when I quit two years, I was so addicted. The first two years getting sober, I was so addicted to sugar. It brought me to my knees more than alcohol even because I was like. Ice cream?

Every single night. It's like cartons. I still do eat ice cream. I still do eat ice cream. Because it's delicious. It's so good. We're not here to tell you different. Ice cream is excellent.

It's excellent. But even in the big book, it said that they would carry around chocolate in their bag. Like, that's real. I remember my mom, I grew up with an alcoholic mom, and when she would go dry, I could always search her purse. For candy. Yeah. Because it's like, you have place on some constant. Yeah.

And so I quickly realized through this whole process that, like, holding. the worst and the best happens a lot. And I think people don't acknowledge it. Like people try to, they fall one way or the other, right? Like me going through this recovery process and all of a sudden being on the biggest show on network television, it's like, okay, how do I hold both of these things? Like I am a, you know, going through the shame spirals and all that. I mean, piece of shit. Right.

But also I'm being nominated for awards. And in my head, I'm like, yeah, they don't fucking know. They don't know. You know what I mean? And like, and then I looked around and I was like, oh, everybody is, this happening to everybody. You know, my friend is getting married and her dad goes into the hospital on the same day. And it's like, and I'm seeing all these examples about like we're constantly,

especially as we get older, being presented with these scenarios. Yeah. And how do we hold both, right? And that is what the show is about. That's amazing. That's such a good point. It is such a good point. Like, how do you hold both?

But it's like we talk about it all the time. You're saying two things can exist at once. Right. You can be over the moon for the good things and you can be in total and utter grief over the sad things. I was going to ask you that question, actually, how you felt about loving yourself. because, in my opinion, the most lovable people have the most, especially alcoholics, it's like we're seeing you, we're falling in love with you. Right.

But what was your relationship to that self-love? It was probably very... I mean, it's ongoing. Right. It's still happening. Yeah. Like, I only in the last six months have started to eat like an adult. You know what I mean?

Like, I'm serious. I understand. Yeah, like to understand what it means to treat my body well. Right. Yeah. And to exercise and to, you know, when I first got into therapy, my therapist was like, we're going to get into all kinds of stuff. But just so you know, like the four most important things are to hydrate, eat well,

exercise, and sleep well. And they sound really basic and stupid. And I'm sure in your head right now you're rolling your eyes. But if you can focus on those four things and actually do them, a lot of other problems in your life will be solved. And I mean, it's it. Yeah, especially hydration. Like, like, the amount of water that I drink now is so boring.

It's such a 43-year-old thing to talk about. But it's like so many problems. So many problems have been solved by trying to focus on those four things. It's so true. And I have moments where I dip and I feel a certain way. and it's all right to occasionally go to my partner and be like, I need... Pizza. Yeah, and I need you to pick me.

I need you to hold me for a second and tell me I'm a good boy. Yeah. And it's not okay for me to expect that all the time. Right. It's not okay for me to live in that self-pity place. Right. But, yeah, it's ongoing. Yeah.

It's ongoing. I mean, especially after a show like that. Yeah. And you're like, okay, now what? Now what? And I explained it actually for the first time in our entire relationship, like a week ago to my wife. I explained it to her in a way that was clearer than ever. I don't know if I can explain it now, but like to explain to somebody that I am an actor,

which means that I am an individual, a person, right, who also isn't, isn't, I'm an artist and this thing exists. But I'm also a business. I'm a literal LLC that has a marketability that has a literal value that can be played. I have a literal amount of followers. You know what I mean? And it's one thing to like want followers or whatever. But like that those followers translate to a number eventually.

And to be able to compartmentalize all of that. and to allow them to like, to understand what it means to be a notable person, but who is also number seven on the call sheet. You know what I mean? And to communicate that without any self-pity. And to communicate that without any like, I'm not that famous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But to understand, like, and it was about expectations, right?

My wife's expectations, we were talking about this podcast. and talking about late night. And it was just one of those things. I was like, Rachel, you know that I, they won't have me on a late night show right now. She was like, what do you mean? Because she thinks of me a certain way. Right.

So do I'm like, what do you mean? No, no, but there is a, there's a political nature to it. Of course. There is a monetary nature to it. Of course. Studios are involved. PR people are involved. No, there's so much that goes into it. There's so much that goes into it.

So I appreciate that you think of me a certain way. way. But to expect it from me makes me feel terrible because I know how this works. Right. And there's a separation. It's very tricky. Well, it's also keeping your ego in check too. There's so much ego in this business. And like to have that relationship, you need to have it in check. And like you But to also have a healthy enough ego to have the audacity to walk into a room and cry for someone. So fucked. Or to be like, I mean, every audition is somebody going, okay, watch this. You know what I mean?

I know. And it is in a way. It's very much like, oh, you want me to do what? I can do that. Watch this. Right. But at the same time, you can't cross over into delusion. Right.

About. That, again, is a tricky thing to hold both at the same time. Right. Because you have to have that realistic numbers or numbers. It is what it is, this is what it is, but then also that higher faith in who you are as a human being having zero to do with that side, that is just the business,

which is really hard not to take personally. Right, because I am a person, but I am also a business. Yeah. Yeah, it's incredibly tricky. On your episodes with Bobby Lee is like, I find him such a dear heart. I've met him a handful of times.

he is like a perfect example of holding both extremes. He has the most confidence and the most bracing, like, audacity of any performer around and also has the lowest in certain instances opinion of himself. Yes. And they're all like fucking fist fighting all the time in public. They're fist fighting. Great. Yeah.

He's putting it all out there. But I appreciate him for putting it all out there. for putting it out there. For sure. Me too. Because it's, I can see myself in, in those, in both of those things. But that's definitely the harder thing to do.

And like for people to do it, that's why, you know, you can admire it so much. Okay. Now let's get to my questions. What's the biggest panty dropper? Oh, yay. That's a good one. That's here. It's all here on the questions, folks.

I don't mean to take a left turn. You have to answer. You have to answer it. Talent. Oh. Like it. Any talent. juggling. That's why I like watching documentaries. I like watching anybody who is, and it doesn't,

I'm not saying you have to be the best at it, but who is passionate about what they do and they're good at it. I like that. I love that. Yeah, that's a panty dropper. We share a panty dropper. We do. It's a dual panty dropper. Oh, Jesus. All right. Get ready, folks. And three, say it at the same time. Three, two, one. We like to be teased. Yeah, we like when guys make fun of us. Oh, interesting. Yeah. You're like talent, It's passion. We're like, just talk to it. Just call my ponytail tails. Yeah.

It's interesting, though. Yeah. Yeah, it's endearing. Like when someone can jab at you and tease you and kind of, I don't know, there's something. I think the theory is we both grew up with older brothers. Okay. So that's like what we know.

It feels like home. Yeah. Yeah. That's our theory. There's more. Nice. But that's the biggest. Okay.

What's the scariest animal you could take in a fight? The scariest animal that I could take in a fight? A chipmunk. Yeah. Yeah, pretty scary. I think I want to say, because I want to give you, I am a large man, right? I am six, four. So the largest, the scariest animal I could take in a fight is a Dach Shepherd.

I'm kidding. I'm totally cool. I'm totally kidding. I could not. No, no, no. Is that a type of. You've heard of a Dax Shepherd? The wild Dax Shepherd.

I've heard of they are. They are. They're very rare. They're very rare. No, maybe a kangaroo. Oh, really? They're fucking fierce, though. Like, you're going to go bark?

But I feel like, listen, I've been working out. I've been hydrating. I've been hydrating. I've been getting good sleep. Okay. Like, you asked me, what's the scariest animal? Like, I don't think, like, an ape, I'm not taking any apex predators. I get it.

I am. But a kangaroo is still scary. They'll take your guts out with those bottom feet. Don't sleep on a kangaroo, though. I'm just saying. Yeah. Oh, I thought you meant sleep. sleep on one. I was like, no.

Also, folks, do not sleep on a kangaroo. Also, folks, do not sleep on a kangaroo. It's whatever you do, do not do that. I mean, in the pouch, maybe. Who do you think is the funniest person dead or alive? Funniest person, dead or alive. Funniest person, dead or alive. We could do one dead and one alive. Funniest person alive who makes me laugh, 100% of the time

because I'm trying to think comedians but I think comedians are different than comics does that make sense? Like there's stand-up comedians and there's like Will Ferrell who's a comedian but not a stand-per-com comedian. I think Tom Segura love

makes me laugh like something about his delivery and the funniest person dead Norm McDonald every time He doesn't even have to get to the punchline. The way the man talks, cracks me up. And his last special, I think it's called Hitler's Dog.

Very, very, very funny. So I'll do Tom Segura and Norm McLeod. I love that. Yes, that's good. Yeah. I'm with that. What are yours? Oh, God.

Well, geez. I know. How dare you? That's a conversation. How dare you, Flavis? How can't do you? Yeah. It's so true.

I love Tom Sigura. I really love, I mean, I love Chappelle. I love Nate Burgatsy. Oh, Ney Bracchance. I love him. Alie Wong. Allie Wong is hilarious. I'm a Schumer.

I fucking love Schumer. And I grew up with like Steve Martin to me when I was a kid. Oh, yeah. The absolute. Yeah. I still feel him dead I'm trying to think of dead

You feel him dead You feel like Steve Martin dead Yeah No he's like Um Isn't it Kristen Whig really does it for me

She's kind of undeniable Undeniable Um Uh Yeah Maya Rudolph They're all you can't Like you

We could make a list We could really make a list I think Netflix already did Probably, yeah, there's a documentary about it, and they're all ranked, and they've all been given a value. Right. A big one. A big numeral value.

If you could live in a movie, which would it be? If I could live in a movie, I would live in Amelie. Really? Yeah. The holiday? Amelie. Oh, I guess so. That's so charming.

Okay, Amelie. That world. I may not live in the story, but the world. Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah. Okay, I like that. Okay. And you just had that.

That was one of the first movies that was like, because I don't know when that came out, late 90s, early, early odds. And it was like the first movie that I was still considered myself like a kid, like the young 20s or whatever, that made me feel like an adult. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Well, no, just feeling like, oh, God, what are these feelings? Yeah.

These are like grown up romantic feelings I'm feeling or, yeah, I don't know. That movie's always stuck with me. I love that. What's yours? Oh, I'm not ready for these questions. He wasn't ready for them either. If you had to live in one movie you were in, which would it be? Oh, is that what you had?

Okay. I would do, I know what mine would. Well, I'm just going to say Jumper because it has teleporting and, like, who wouldn't want to teleport? Yeah. I was in a little movie called Romeo and Michelle's behind the Velvet Curt. Yeah, yeah. And it, I would do that one. That would be a good place to live.

Oh, Romeo and Michelle. Yeah. They're funny. What is yours? See, the movies I've been in on TV, I play good guys, and in movies. Play bad guys? No, you have to pick. But I love it.

Movies, movies that I would live in. Well, I guess I would live in, oh, geez, I'd live in Guardians of the Galaxy, too. Absolutely. Come on, I mean, come on. I mean, come on. So would my whole family be. So have you been on Guardians of the Galaxy at California Adventure? That's a great ride.

Yeah. Is that the one I took Shepard on? Yeah. She didn't know what it was. The old Tower of Terror? Yes. And he was like four at the time or three. He was so traumatized.

He wasn't going to make it. The line was up here and they were like, you have to get out and measure. And then he was not making it. And the whole entire room and line was like, boo. So they propped him up a little bit. And they were like, he made it. And they all started cheering. And so we're like, we got him on.

She had no clue what the ride was. He was so shocked for days. He would just talk about it. He was just like bruised? Yeah. Oh, it was so, so intense. These are the things that happened to us pre-memory. I know.

That won't have to be processed at some point. At some point. Yeah. Oh, I liked that one. Okay. This is the most random. Oh, he's, oh, no. Oh, I love that you're just.

He's in. I can't. wait for you to get like a personal one that's like for me for Chelsea handler yeah somewhere uh-oh if you were going to murder your partner how would you do it first of all such a great question you wrote this yeah you wrote this okay yeah Jesus I don't think we here's guys let's not give away our plans I mean if we give them away we're kind of fuck yeah yeah I would just go Princess ride it's going to later be in the I okay powder Remembered?

They said it right there. Wait, but what's in Princess Bread? Iokane powder. Iokane powder. Oh, yeah. Aylkine powder. Oateless. Uh, tasteless.

What is the first thing you do when you get home from a trip? I definitely don't unpack. I'll tell you that much right now. I'll tell you what I don't do. I like to shower. Same. You think that's weird? No, I don't know.

No. You got to get the airport. Sure. Well, airplane clothes. Never ever airplane clothes in your bed. Have you heard of especially when you travel through time zones? Have you heard about grounding? What? Like when you travel long distances, especially over multiple time zones, what I've heard helps with jet lag is to get barefoot and get on organic ground. Grass, sand. Like when you get to the destination.

And it helps with the jet lag? I suppose, yeah. Really? Have you tried it? I've heard. How do you try it? I have. And it works? And it works? And it seemed to work.

Really? Ireland sober? Yes and no. Okay. Yeah. You've done both. No. No.

I was like, I've been like four or five times. I've been like four or five times. Yeah. Yeah. We went for our friend's wedding. No. Wow. Yeah.

I took my mom and dad for a trip. No. Our honeymoon. No. And then I shot a movie in Northern Ireland also no. Wow. Yeah. Is your wife sober?

No. Also no. No. But since having kids, it's kind of just like falling away. Yeah. Oh, she's one of those. For her healing process has involved all kinds of life adjustments and diet adjustments. And she's been working with like a doula, a postpartum doula.

Got it. And pelvic floor therapy and all these things. Yeah. And alcohol is just kind of falling away, which is easy for someone who's not dependent on it. So what is the podcast called? The podcast is called That Was Us. It was. That was.

That was us. That's very exciting. I did a rewatch of a show, and it's really cool to go back and watch all the episodes. For me, it was like 17 years prior when I started, so it was a lot further away from it. Isn't it weird? I mean, even now, it's for me to look back. It was, I had an actual hard time. Sure, I'm sure.

Because I was 21 at the time and like watching it as a 40-year-old. I was like, what the far? Never mind the creative aspect of it, but like, oh, I remember that day. And what was going on in your life and all of it that comes with it. So it was an interesting journey, but I'm excited for you. I think that it'll be. I'm just curious if this is something that people can do because I've never been able to do it. Like I was looking at my kids' old art and it was from years ago.

And when I looked at it, there was no. not a part of me that's like, oh, I remember this time, that was happy. It's always really painful. Oh, interesting. No? No one. Kids art is painful for you? I'm saying anything from the past that could be perceived as like a happy memory. I'm not like, that was a good time. There's that pain. Because you long for it? Yeah, it's like the nostalgia. Is it possible to do a rewatch and not experience that ache? I felt the ache. Yeah. No, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's. I think it's. I think it. again, it's, it's both practice and holding both.

Right. Right. To remember. That's a theme today, I feel like. I mean, I think it's my theme for everything. It's the Mandy. Yeah, it's my everything. Yeah.

To allow, to allow things to just be like, yeah, that longing for what was. I mean, we're just now getting into it like with the kids and stuff. But I imagine it's, you know, like I was trying to teach Bear how to pump on the swings. Such a simple thing. And then I was like, wait, don't teach this kid how to do that. Because then he won't need you to push him. Like, why would you? Like for a second, I was like, because.

It is so relatable. But here's the thing. I was teaching him because I was tired of pushing him. Right. And then I was like, wait, then he's, but. Then you won't have to push him. And I was like, he'll figure out when he figures it out. Oh, my God. You're speaking to every inner anxiety I have in my body.

Yeah, no. No, it's so true. That's like the metaphor. Yeah. Wow. That's beautiful, though. Yeah. Everything.

Your whole, what you bring is so beautiful. Especially your car. Yeah. I love your podcast. Thank you. The conversations you have with people are excellent, and they help me a lot. Really? That's incredible.

That means a lot. Thanks for sharing that with us. Yeah, of course. Well, we look forward to your rewant. Valley this more. Yeah. As soon as you guys are done doing the podcast, you can do a real. listen podcast.

You go back and you listen to it and reflect on the podcast reflecting on the yeah. We were like, Rachel, you remember when you said like, nope, yeah, nope, never. What a joy. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for having me. That was a hate gum podcast.