Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Elizabeth Day on Finding Beauty in the Unexpected

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Rachel and Olivia talk with Elizabeth Day about her fertility journey, the narratives we build around failure, and how to manage anxious thoughts while trusting your greater purpose. Watch the video of this episode here!Like the show? Rate Broad Ideas 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts and SpotifyAdvertise on Broad Ideas via Gumball.fm See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a Headgum podcast. Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yello, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room,

and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max, and listen to The Hax podcast, on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Broad Ideas. Hello. Hi. Today we have a very, very cool person.

I really enjoyed a conversation with Elizabeth Day. Same. She is an author, podcast host. Her new book. One of us out now. Which is funny because at the end of our session. We felt like she was one of us. Yeah.

Listen for yourselves. No. I was looking for. Oh, my endless mission was to find these fucking malt vinegar, like salt and malt vinegar crisps. Okay. Delicious. Yeah. Let me tell you.

Okay. The bag I found that I was obsessed with was like at a heritage, or it was like a heritage thing. Yeah. So they don't have to sell them in any market. So I went all around London and tried every single. single, any kind of vinegar, but I was really looking for the malt vinegar, but any kind of salt and vinegar crisp. You are amongst friends here. I cannot tell you how much I love sauce and vinegar crisps. I'm so obsessed with them. Yeah. Wait, I'm going to show you a picture. I won't

do it now. Of the bag. Yes. Okay. Yes. You have to say it because chips are fries. Chips are fries. Yeah. That's right. Right. For my 40th birthday, my friend Giles gave me a box of different brands of sauce and vinegar. Are you serious? We're really speaking the same language here. And I had to, and his gift to me was like, you have to rate each one. And he gave each one a category of tanginess, texture. And I rated each one. They were honestly that were about 30 packets. I, I love that. Okay. I did that on my own, like probably 30 packets. I have to find, I'm going to show you this picture. They said they were going to send me a box. These people were so nice. And it's like a small business. Yeah. It was the best I've ever had. Yeah, you have to tell me. I know. I'm

I won't take the time looking for it now, but I am going to pull it out. Were you blindfolded or? No, I wasn't, but I took it very seriously and I was like, each one I gave a score out of 10 for each category. And the one that came out on top was, okay, they are the best, although I haven't tried the ones that you're telling me the best. There's a supermarket chain called Co-op. Yeah.

And the co-op, salt and vinegar crisps. Was the best. Sea salt and Chardonnay. Oh, no, I had those. 100%. They were very good. No, I had those exact ones. Did you?

Yeah, the M&S ones were like fine. Yes, they're okay. Pretimanger, did you have some from them? Sorry, I actually. Oh, maybe I did actually. They're very good as well. We did go in there and get my daughter a sandwich once. But we have, you know, those are kind of here too.

Okay. So that's why I wasn't as. It's not as exciting. Well, I don't say it correctly, but you know, predomanger. Will you say it? I say Pratermanger. Because that's correct. But I like Prettomager.

Yeah, because it's just easier to say it that way, the wrong way. A way and a pretermie. They're all over New York. You know. Yes. You can picture it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.

I just never knew it was supposed to be said that. Well, it is supposed to be said that. But let me just, let me just say, correct, manger. That's how I say it. Manger. Anyway, I cannot wait to show you this bag. I'm like so excited. Oh, me too.

It reminds me, I'm going to hit them up and be like, where are my Chris? Where are my Chris? I'm craving them right now. Anyway, it was a real thing. It was fun, though, to like test them all. Yes. And while we're on the topic. TK Max, not TJ Max.

Yes. Isn't it weird? Like the tiny little inflections that make a massive cultural difference. Yes. Yeah. I was like, hold on. Is it the same though? Yes, exactly the same.

Okay. Yep. It's just TK. Max. Yep. I had, of course, go there as well. And where do you go when you're here? Okay. I obviously go to what my cousin calls Tartier target.

I love a target because we don't have that in the UK. That's a shame. It's a crying shame is what it is. I go there. I love Erdogan, although obviously I have to work hard for a year before I go there in order to afford the Haley-Beebies smoothie. Love that. You know they just took her name off of the smoothie? Why?

I don't know why. It's probably because they don't want to pay her anymore or something. I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, it's just called the strawberry glaze, if you're wondering. I used to love stamp on Hillhurst, but that's gone. It's gone. Yeah, they closed.

So sad about that. I don't laugh, but I love the coffee bean on Hillhurst because they have a patio there. Where when I first came to... In the Alberton's parking lot? Yes. Okay. When I first came to L.A., so I write books as well. And when I first came, I would find it so exotic to be able to sit outside and type in the sunshine.

And I used to go to the coffee bean on Hillhurst and write. And it's such a fascinating place to examine human nature. Because you're right, there's the Albuhrie. Albertson's parking lot. Yep, you're in the parking lot of Albertson. There's quite a few unhoused people who go there because of the heaters. There's also like a lot of script meetings. And there's an overspill from a narcotics anonymous as well. So that you get to all of human life is there. A real blend. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. I like it. I love cafe gratitude just to like scratch that L.A. H. Yeah. And I love Hague. And I love Hague. I love L.A. I really do. I love that. I know. We haven't heard that in a while. No. Everyone's fleeing. I know. And I have to say I'm so sorry for what you have been through as a city. Right. It's been a weird time. Yeah. It has been a weird time. I did see it got on some list as like number 12, like the 12th best city in the country or something.

It is. It still is a wonderful city. They were proud. People lost a lot. But yeah. It was hard. It's, yeah. L.A. has been hurting for a minute. One of the things that struck me when I, when I, first came. So I went through a divorce in my mid-30s and I came to live in LA for three months because I wanted to go somewhere where there was sunshine, where it felt different and where I could start again, but also where I could speak the language. So I came to LA and I stayed in an Airbnb in Los Fillas and I, the sense of community was so apparent to me and actually in London you don't get that as much. It feels like L.A., it's such a big city that it's, it becomes a series of smaller neighborhoods. And there's a real community spirit. That was my experience anyway, like how amazing that was.

And how people are friendly to you. And even if they're saying, have a nice day and they don't really mean it, how much nicer is that than British cynicism? Yeah. Yeah. It's true. So LA gets a bad reputation for not having community. And we were just saying the other day, like, I took my kids to baseball and then to dance class. And it's like, we saw someone from school and someone from the, like, it's so community heavy where we live. Yeah.

And it feels great. I'm like, I wouldn't want to actually leave the community we have right now. Right. Because it is tight. It is like that. I'm getting like with soccer. Like you start, you know everybody who's like in the league and you're seeing them everywhere. She's a big soccer player. Are you? No. Absolutely. Oh, sorry. I was not. I couldn't

happen. Absolutely not. You love salt and vinegar chips and soccer. Actually, I do love sports. Soccer's the one sport that I never knew or watched or whatever, football. But what I was going to say is it was interesting in London because, you know, I was there over the summer with my daughter, but it's not like you have homes with these backyards or like, you know, the city, but we actually were lucky enough to be on a garden, you know, which felt like a park, which was so cool. But, and so the community there, because you were all together with other families and stuff, that was really nice. You literally were living the Notting Hill experience. Oh, yeah. Geographically and like the movie. Oh, I know. Oh, I'm aware. And they're like,

you know, on this street, in the movie is where this happened. And then the Notting Hill Bookshop, of course, always has a line out of it because of the movie. But I like Donne Booker. personally. Oh, I love don't books too. My favorite. Yeah. Yeah. So beautiful. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. I know. I know. I love a bookshop. Love a bookshop. Yes. As you are.

Yeah. Speaking of books. Yeah. Tell us how you got started, what first brought you to writing. Give us a little bit of that. Everything. Give us to you. So I have this slightly strange story about how I knew I knew I wanted to be a writer, which was that my mother taught me how to read and write before I started school. And I think that gave me an early love for words, because I associated it with being close to my mother. I've got an older sister, so it's like special that it was just our time. And aged four, I just remember having this idea that I needed to be an author. That was it. and I just knew that that was for me

and maybe it's because of those moments with my mother maybe it's because I loved books and the flights of imagination I could go on but from that moment on I stayed really true to that idea and so throughout school and university I was writing wherever I could and then I became a print journalist

and I did that for many years but I always knew that I wanted to end up writing And so I started writing a book when I was 29 and that became my first novel. But I've always written books alongside other full-time jobs. So I was a print journalist doing a lot of interviews, writing books. And then my personal life took a turn. So in my 30s, I had an intense decade of transition where I got married to the wrong person. And then we went through a divorce, which was really tough.

and I really wanted to have babies and I went through unsuccessful fertility treatment then I had the first of three miscarriages and so I felt very lost and I felt that I was a unique kind of failure which is often the lie that failure tells you is that you're the only person who's experiencing this and you should feel humiliated and embarrassed and ashamed

and it was very isolating and I just came to the conclusion that I wanted to understand more about failure and how I was feeling. And I wanted to ask people questions of it. And so as a journalist, I was so used to doing interviews for newspapers about people's successes. And I thought, well, why don't we flip that on its head and ask people about their failures? And podcasting was kind of just starting. I mean, I know in the States, you're much more advanced than we are.

But this is like 2018. And I launched How to Fail. And I didn't know what I was doing. I googled like can I hire a sound engineer. I ebade my wedding dress from my failed marriage to hire him. Wow. So it's very like on a shoestring. I drew my own logo with felt-tip pens one night.

And I started interviewing people about the times they failed in their life. And I thought it would exist for one season and that would be it. And actually it's now still going and it's changed my life in the most magical ways. So alongside writing, I now. have this other outlet, which is all about connection and curiosity exactly what you guys do. It's about asking people questions about what it is to be human. And that's the thing that kind of connects all of my work. Wow. That's incredible. And I love it so much because that's one of the things, I mean, to be completely honest, even doing a podcast, there has been resistance for me

on just talking to successful people. And not like some people are successful people. It's, what is deemed is that. Yes. Right? Where it's such a vast topic and there's so many more secret successes that we don't see. Yeah. And there's so many failures that really go into those successes. Totally.

And also the value society puts on success versus the learning from the experience. And so the fact that you're diving deep into the psychology of that and the experience of that, is not only necessary, but I think it's really important. Oh, thank you so much for saying that and for saying that so brilliantly and eloquently. I need you. Nailed it. That's exactly what it is. Because, you know, failure is the thing that connects us all. Even though we might not want to fail and even though we might seek to avoid it, understandably, it will happen at some point in your life. Yeah. And actually when you realize that, there's an opportunity there for connection with other people who have experienced similar things. things, but also, as you say, Levy, for growth. Because unless we fail, we can never

evolve. Right. We'll never be able to correct the things that we did wrong or that went wrong. And so there's a real opportunity there for learning. And it's radically redefined how I think of success as well. Because now success for me is not being able to get the best dinner reservations or being able to fly on private jets, as nice as I'm sure that is, because I've never done it. But for me, success is really about authenticity. So I can show up here and speak to you too, and I'm the same person that's at home with my husband and my cat. I'm the same person that shows up on my podcast or is writing books. And it took me a long time to be able to do that. Because I think, especially for women, we are so conditioned to perform, to please

others to try and be perfect, that we are scared sometimes that if we admit imperfectional failure will be isolated or people won't like us anymore. And that pressure is enormous. Yes. You're just constantly wearing a mask and I was like, I just can't do it anymore. Right. And it sort of set me free, talking about failure and understanding how other people feel about it has set me free in terms of success as well. Gosh, I know, especially as women, And you know, and you brought up your fertility. Fertility. I just said that.

Oh, I love what you said. It's really amputtiated fertility. It's like ASMR. I know. You're welcome, everybody. But, you know, that whole journey and being open about that. But I think for women, that's one of the biggest areas where you can feel like a failure, whether it is actually having a child or if you can breastfeed or if you, you know,

even being a parent, like all of that. So to be open about that, you know, and talk about your journey and everything. I mean, I think that is one of the biggest things most women, no, not all women want to have children. But, you know, if you do, it's hard to not think that, like, your body's a failure. 100%. And you're right that not all people want to have children. I did. And I'm really passionate about talking about this because I don't think enough narratives exist in the public eye where someone has tried and failed to have the children they yearned for.

Because I want people to know that there's hope on the other side of it and I never felt that there would be. I thought that I would have to make a radical change in my life if I couldn't have children. And as it turns out, the journey that I went on, the radical change was internal in a way. and I'm fully at peace now with not having the children that I once longed for. But you are totally right that, again, as women, traditionally, we have been taught that it is our biological imperative to procreate and have kids. And I grew up in that culture of just assuming that I would get pregnant and have a family. And then to discover in my 30s that it wasn't going to happen that way for me and that

I would have to go through successive rounds of IVF, egg donate. all of that, and then have the experience of miscarriage, I absolutely did feel a failure. And as you put it, Rachel, that my body was failing me, because at the same time as I was experiencing those struggles, so many of my friends and family were just having babies as if it was the most natural thing in the world. It was just incredibly easy for everyone else. That's how it felt. And it's taken me a while to unravel that.

And I still consider it a failure in one. one respect. It's the failure to live the life that I thought that I wanted. But the amazing thing about not having lived that life is that the life I'm in right now is so amazingly unexpected. And there's so many opportunities within the not having children. And I'm so blessed that I have love in my life in so many other ways. And I have lots of children in my life in other ways. And I'm able to create in other ways. And so there are other ways of finding. And so there are other ways of finding fulfillment. I actually just had Michelle Yoe on my podcast, the amazing Oscar-winning actress, and she had been through a very similar thing. She had not had children, got divorced young,

and now she's a stepmother and a step-grandmother. And I was able to ask about that, because I have three stepchildren. Oh, you do. Yes. So now. How old are they? They're actually, like, old now. So there's 21 and 19-year-old men, boys. I want to say. Boys are like, is that accurate? Young men. Young men. Thank you. And a 16-year-old girl.

And that is an incredibly privileged position to be in. To kind of have this relationship with my husband's children with his ex-wife. And not to have to parent is kind of amazing. Right. Sure. Because they have two amazing parents. So I get to show up as an optional added bonus. Call it a bonus mom, right? Exactly. Yeah. But Michelle Yeo was so interesting about it because she said as well, I really did feel like I had failed my first husband and it's partly why they got divorced. She was like, and I did feel like a failure as a woman. And I've had years of unlearning that narrative. And often we have that narrative because we're taught it by a society that doesn't quite fit us anymore or maybe a family narrative that isn't ours to hold.

And it's been an extraordinary experience in many ways. It's taught me that I can be sad and at peace with that sadness. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, that was a lot. Let me share my life story. But I have a question when it comes to the narratives. Yeah.

So, interestingly enough, I said to my husband last night, I feel I'm failing our son. Sorry. You didn't tell me this. Well, because he has learning disabilities. Did you have his conference? Yeah, I didn't cry, but I'm going to cry now. First conference, I didn't cry. All right.

Her parent teacher conference. She usually gets... He was with the tutor last night, and it's, you guys, it's hell. It's like torture to keep him in the room. And I was like, I'm failing him. And it goes back to the, oh, my God, did my body feel him? All of those things, right? And so I had a moment, which is fine.

Where I get caught up, I remember when I was, this stuck with me. I was at your house. I had an audition for the OC, and I didn't get it. And my friend was nannying this little girl. And she goes, God, Olivia, you try so hard, but you just fail. And I was like, who said that? Sorry, your friends. My friends, the kid she was nannying that was like 10 years old.

So she didn't know what she was. saying, but I remember it hurting and being like she's right. And I kept that narrative forever. Like, I try so hard. Why is it not working? Yeah. Right? And I saw that last night where I'm like, I'm providing him everything. Why is it not working? And then I went, okay, this is a narrative that needs to change. Right? Yes. How does one do that in three words or fewer first I just want to say thank you so much for sharing that that's such a beautiful example of everything that I believe in that when we are brave enough to share something that feels so raw and emotional and so personal there'll be so many people

listening to this who feel seen in your words and it's so professional it's so professional profoundly important. And you sharing that, I would say, is an act of mothering. That is you doing the work. That's a beautiful, beautiful thing. I also, I know a little about your son because I know that you're obsessed with the telepathy tapes from having to do your podcast. Can we just put a pin in that and talk about it after I've launched this session? Because I have so much to say. It's in the most amazing podcast and has totally changed the way that I think about life. So how does one do that? Okay. I would say that as women, and perhaps you're listening to this, and you relate to it in a different way,

perhaps you are a marginalized person in some way. And your experience of the world is not the default experience of a cis, straight, white, middle class male. Those people are lucky enough to be born in a world that is still made in their image. Now, that is changing, thank goodness. what happens if you are not privileged enough to be born into a world making your image is that every time you fail, the danger is that you internalize that failure

and you believe it to be your responsibility. You believe that you are the failure rather than failure being something that happens that is an overcomable obstacle on your path to eventual success. And I think that as women particularly, and I can only imagine as mothers, The society we live in which is still patriarchal and misogynist thrives on female shame. What you're talking about there is shame. You feel shame that you're not the parent that you believe you should be. And the antidote to shame, as our Queen Brunee Brown says, is sharing. Because shame thrives in silence. It thrives in making you feel like a failure. It thrives in the alienated. the isolation of that. And it's why what you just did there is so powerful, because I hope that it

makes you feel slightly less like a failure. When you hear from the listeners who relate so deeply, or from me who relate so deeply in my own failure to have children, that you are not alone. And actually, you're the precise opposite of a failure because you have the amount of self-awareness that makes you into a present and gifted parent. And so I think, reminding yourself, you asked how to do it. Yeah. The first step is to remind yourself that you're being lied to by a society that wants your shame to thrive. Because then they can sell me stuff to make me feel better. Exactly. Exactly. And they can make you feel less powerful. Right. Actually, we all have so much power. Oh yeah. And it's a radical act to exercise it as women. But it's so, so hard. And I don't want to give the impression

that it's just a sort of one and done. You just, you tell yourself that that narrative is a lie and then you're okay. Poof. Yes, you have to keep re-learning and unlearning. You have to re-brainwash. So when I work with people, I'm always like, your job is to brainwash yourself. Yes, I love that. Over and over and over.

And they'll be like, oh, well, I don't feel it. I don't, I'm like, I don't care. You do it enough times over and over and over and over and over until you start to maybe buy into it a little bit. Just the same way brainwashing happens to us. If you were to tell a child the first time that they're a failure, they probably don't believe it until they hear it over and over by society or by evidence or whatever. It builds a case that we then buy into.

Oh, I love that phrase. It builds a case. And one of the most profound things that I learned on my podcast, it was an episode I did in 2019 with a man called Mo Gowdat. He used to be chief business officer at Google X, and then he gave it all up because he wasn't happy. And he wanted to devote his life to working out what makes humans happy. Love it.

He spent 12 years researching it, looking at all of the statistics, all of the algorithms, everything. And he's come up with a formula that he says can make every person happier. And essentially, a large part of what he says is that your anxious brain, the one that was hardwired from a cavewoman, caveman era, to scan the horizon for willy mammoths and for threats. Yeah. It now exists in a world where we are overwhelmed by choice. And so your anxious brain sometimes can't distinguish between when there's a fire and your house is in danger or when the toast has been left in the toaster for too long.

Your anxious brain can't distinguish. So you have to interrogate your anxious thoughts. And he gave this example of having had an argument with his daughter and he was walking down the street afterwards and his anxious brain was saying, you're a terrible parent. she doesn't love you anymore. You fail in so many ways every single day, Mo. You're useless. And he stopped himself and he said he actually gives his anxious brain a name. He calls his anxious brain Becky. He's like, I know, I'm not Becky. Not Becky. And you said, Becky, if you don't have objective evidence for that assertion, I'd really love it if you could remove that negative assumption and replace it with a more positive take. Thank you so much

Becky, I've logged that you're anxious, but I've got this. Yeah. And in that way, he says that you can actually train your brain to be more positive. And I've done it and it does actually work. Because the other thing that it does is that it introduces a gap between reaction and response. That's right. So you can choose how to respond rather than just falling into your default reactions. Right.

That's exactly it. I know we were dealing with that recently, too, about reacting versus responding. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just like got into a thing with a friend and, you know, whatever. It seemed like they reacted and I just sat with it till I could just be clear and respond in a calm way. Well done. Which is hard because you want to just go right back.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, which is easier in a sense because you can just release it all. But then it's like, hold on. Sit with it, whatever. Do you have a name for your anxious brain? I do. Okay, this is it.

So Moe's Becky is based on a girl. at his school who was constantly pointing out all the things that might go wrong. So she was super pessimist. So I based it on a girl at my school who I'm sure she's lovely now. At the time, she was just slightly irritating. Apologies if she's listening to this.

But my anxious brain is called Jennifer. That's good. We made up one for our friend. We call her as Jessica. Oh, that's such a good anxious brain name. Yeah. Yeah. Because she's more like, oh, no, here's from Jessica.

Jessica's in full form. Yeah. Full on Jessica. I actually. You need a name for yours and I need a name for mine. Oh, I have one. Remember I wrote that children's book, my little gray guy? And I read it to my son recently because he was saying he notices his brain and I'm like, yes, you're my son.

He's like, I notice sometimes I'll think I'm not going to get the answers right or I'll think this and I'll think this and I'll think that and I noticed my brain will lie to me. And I'm like, yes, you notice that it's a lie. I'm like, that's amazing. So I read in this book I wrote about my little gray guy and it's like the liar in the head. And I read it to him and he goes, I don't think you wrote that. He's like, I think you stole that. He's like, you know, you could get arrested for stealing. I was like, I was like, that's my writing. And he was like, so now we reference that part where I'll say, Was that you or was it your little great guy? Great.

And he can identify the difference. But can I just say as well, how could you feel that you're failing as a parent when you have a conversation like that, when you taught your son. She's like that. She's like, that's my older son. Both, but you're showing up. What I would argue is that you are showing up in exactly the way that your children need you to show up because you are you.

And that's beautiful. Like showing up in the imperfection. is the authenticity is the work. Yeah. Sometimes I think he needs like a really good teacher as a mom though. I'm a good teacher like this. Yeah. Like I was going to say as you were talking, you're a really good mom.

Oh. You are. That's going to be. I'm sorry, but you are. Like you're mothering all these people that you're talking to. And even us today, like you have that like mother energy, that like knowing and nurturing at the same time. Thank you so much. Yeah, completely. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Oh, I think what you're saying is that you are my children. Yeah. We're finally here. Thank you so much. That's how an easy thing to say and it means a lot to me. How old were your stepchildren when you came into their lives?

Wait, so how long have we been together? Seven years. Okay. So I'm not good at math. What you would call math. So like a nine-year-old girl? Yes. 9-11, 16, I want to say, something like that. Wow. What an interesting time, though, to come in. Super interesting. And actually, my previous marriage, I was a stepmother then as well. Really? Yeah, and they were much younger. I feel like part of my role in this lifetime is to be a stepmother for whatever reason. And so the first time around, they were much younger. They were four and seven. So I've had kind of both experiences. But my stepchildren now, they have two amazing parents who do a great job co-parenting. And what I really admire about my stepchildren is that I feel like each of them knows who they are. And when I met them, they had that inner confidence where they didn't see me as a threat.

And that's a real blessing. Because very often it's a very complicated relationship. I don't know if you have experience of it at all from either side, whether you had step back, have you? We do. Well, we both had stepdad growing up. And mom. And mom. I had both. I didn't have a stepmom.

Did you? Yeah. How old were you when they came into your life? I was like around 14, 15. So was that tough? It was for sure, more so on the stepdad front because, you know, it was my mom and my brother and I for so long. So having like a man come into the house was a little different, you know, because whatever. Well, because you lived with her full time.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's different than you weren't going like. I mean, I would. You would. Yeah. Yeah, I would go back and forth. But it was easier.

I don't know if it was easier, but on my dad's side with my stepmom, she was very young. She was, I think, 29 when I was 14, something like that. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. But, you know, that was fine. So I would love to get your advice, actually. Because I think I've been on a whole journey with step-parenting where during the years that I was trying so hard to have my own child, I think I was trying to perform the mother that I would be in order to ensure that we would have a happy blended family and I could kind of prove myself maternally to my stepchildren. Like, look, I would be a good mother.

Almost I was sort of putting it out. Auditioning? Yes. It was like I was auditioning. And it was the same thing with kind of friends kids. I would always feel sort of so stressed around. And going back to what you were saying earlier, Olivia, it was almost like maybe the universe is telling me that I won't be a good mother. So I need to prove the universe wrong by constantly auditioning.

Like the pressure. Yes. And what I now realize is that because of that performance, I wasn't being myself. Of course. And now that I've let go of that. dream of sort of biological conventional motherhood for myself. I feel so liberated to be myself and to show up as myself. And I mean, you have to ask them for their side of the story, but I feel like my relationship with my stepchildren has got so much better because of that because I'm not trying

so hard anymore. Right. And I just get to, and children particularly sense that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. For sure. So now they know who I am rather than my pretending to be something else. I will say my dad, when they first divorced, he had a very serious girlfriend, lived, might as well have been a stepmom. And that was a very, like, try hard. But I also thought she was cool because she was, like, pretty and, like, very charismatic, but, like, also super fucked up, which I didn't realize at the time because I was a kid. But the tryhard was very apparent, you know? And I do get that because you feel like I feel that way, even meaning any. kid now. Like, like, no, you, I have to be your favorite adult you've ever come across. You're

going to love me and you're going to let me hold you and I'm going to win. You know? Like, it's like that feeling of like, you do, though. You do. They do like me. Yeah, they love you so much. But I am, I'm very short. So they think I am a child. They think you're one of that. Yes. They're like, you're not intimidating. You're one of us. But yeah, but that pressure is real. But, yeah, I don't know. I'm like, God, how many people did I go there? through on my dad's side, that was interesting. My mom had a couple, too, but I never, it was harder for me to warm up to any of the men than I did to the stepmommies. Okay. Okay. Yeah. On my. Which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I know. Yeah. Because I normally do so well with men.

That's what I'm, that's why I think it's interesting. I know. Yeah. I normally. Throw her in a room full of guys. We're good. That doesn't sound good, Olivia. Yeah. So can I ask you something personal? So, you know, fertility-wise, everything, you decided not to do that once that ended, that chapter ended. Was there ever a thought about adoption or anything or what put the hard stop on it? Yes, absolutely. You, by the way, ask me anything personal you ever want. That's my favorite kind of conversation. So it was a long journey for me. It took 12. It was 12 years of trying and failing to have babies. Oh my goodness.

It was a really long time. And during that time, I had different relationships. So my first marriage, two rounds of IVF, one miscarriage, then we got divorced. Then I did a classic cliche thing and dated a much younger man who wasn't ready. So then I froze my eggs. Okay. Then I met my now husband and we got pregnant naturally, which was completely mind-blowing, just after I turned 41.

Wow. And it made us realize how much we wanted it. So then we started pursuing fertility treatment, had another miscarriage, then a second one with Justin during lockdown. Then we decided to try egg donation, actually with a clinic here in L.A. And that was an incredibly stressful process for loads of reasons. It was almost like the universe was sending sort of blocks. And now I understand why, because actually in this lifetime, I don't believe it's my purpose

to be a biological mother. It took us a year to find a donor. then we went through the whole process and finally it got to the stage where you know several months down the line lots of money spent I mean how lucky am I that I'm able to have the means found the donor everything

all the levels everything was great the embryo was amazing the embryo was transferred and then that round failed and I think I had set so much hope on that one that it felt so devastating and I remember I was in LA and it was pouring with rain for three weeks

It was the beginning of 2023. There were mudslides and everything. It was so weird. It was like the weather was reflecting my own internal meltdown. And after that, my husband, Justin and I had a series of very serious conversations because we had to talk it through. And ultimately, because Justin has three kids already, he understandably, and he had said this from the beginning, adoption didn't feel the right fit for him. And I was really respectful of that because I love our relationship. I'm so lucky that we have an amazing partnership.

And in a way, I didn't want to do anything. I didn't want to push anything to such an extreme that I would sacrifice that. And so I sort of decided to pivot and shift on the love that I did have, like focus my attention on the love that I did have. And the wonderful relationship I do have, which so many people don't, rather than the love that I didn't. Right. And surrogacy obviously would also have been an option.

and again, like, I hugely admire and respect anyone who has done that. But again, at that stage, I was, what am I now? I was like 42, back to time 43. And I just felt like it would be another process that would take a lot of time and energy and presence. And I'd have to do it in L.A. even though we live in London. And all of those things went into our conversations. And we just decided that actually we had such an amazing life already and let's focus on that. So that's why it wasn't for us.

Yeah. And I really hugely admire people who do go that route. And I have a very dear friend who has gone that route. And it is so beautiful to see her with her son. I mean, it's such a special bond that they have. Yeah. What do you extract from that as, and maybe you don't, but. Whenever I hear anyone's journey with struggle in any arena, I go, okay, well, what do you

extract from that in the sense of why do you think that you went through that? Not why did your body do that? No. On a higher level, what was in that for you? That's an incredible question. So, I know I'm speaking with two women who get this. I absolutely have a profound spiritual belief that there is a broader meaning and a kind of collective consciousness that we can tap into if only we are open-minded and open-hearted enough. And at the time that I was really struggling with, should we do surrogacy, should we do another round of egg donation? Should we, should I really push this with Justin and pursue adoption? I just didn't have any of the answers and I was really flailing.

And a dear friend of mine who had also been through fertility treatment, told me about a psychic who had given her an incredible reading. She said, can I put you in touch with her? And I got in touch with this extraordinary woman. She's actually based in the States. And I texted her. And the only thing that I said was my first name. I was like, my name's Elizabeth. I'd love to book a session. That's all she knew about me. She called me on the phone, so she didn't even see my face on a Wednesday evening at 7 p.m. And she's like, okay, let's see what's here for you. And the first thing she said was, well, you love words. Oh, my God.

I said, I do love words. I love words. I love my chatting words in my life. And because I've had various psychic experiences before, I knew that I didn't want to ask any questions because I knew that I wanted to be able to trust whatever she had to say. I said nothing. She then went on and just said a number of totally accurate things. my husband's name began with a Jay, what he did for a living. Does your mother have neck pain?

I checked. She did. All of this stuff, it was wild. Then she said halfway through, I know that you write books, but do you do something else? Are you a life coach or something helping people with their mistakes or their failures? And I'm like, you've got to be kidding. Not kidding. I was like, well, I'm not a life coach, but that tracks.

Wow. Yeah. And then she said, I feel. feel as though you are struggling at the moment with letting go of a lifelong desire. She said, I don't know whether it's to do with children, because I don't know how old you are, but if it is to do with children, I strongly believe that you were a mother in a past life, and you were the mother of six. Oh, stop.

And it almost melted you. And this life has been offered to you to live on your own terms. And she said, and if you've ever tried to have children, you might have strong. with fertility, you might have had miscarriage or failed IVF, because the universe is protecting you. And when she said that, it was like, everything fell into place. Wow. I felt in such alignment, and she gave me peace. Are you going to give us her number? Yeah. I will give you to her number. Okay, period. I want to give it to you. I, you know, when someone says something and you feel it's the truth. Yes. Yeah. That's how it felt. And it was so interesting to me because I'd been

spending so much time and energy on trying to do this thing that I thought was my dream, that I longed for, that I thought in some ways was meant to be, but I think I'd just been trying to convince myself of that. We come back to the performance again. And as soon as she said it, It was like I had permission to let go. And I'm not like, from that moment, I have been a total piece of it. Wow. The next day, I remember walking down the street and seeing a woman pushing a baby in a stroller. And for 12 years, that had caused me such pain seeing that on the street.

And I was able to smile at her and think, good for you. That's your path in this lifetime. That also looks like a lot of hard work. And I'm sure you're doing it brilliantly. and it's not my path in this lifetime. And also when this psychic said to me, you've been a mother of six, that made total sense

because I had had three failed rounds of fertility treatment and three miscarriages. So technically, I've been pregnant six times. Holy. Wow. I'd had six souls who I... That is so... Oh my gosh.

Incredible. It was life-changing. And so in answer to your question, I think what it's taught me is the power of purpose and getting really honest with yourself about what your purpose is, because it might be different from the thing that you've been telling yourself you should want. And now I firmly believe that my purpose is to speak like this to other women and men who have been through similar journeys to offer them hope and to be able to talk to that experience. from a place of knowledge and wisdom. And I think the other thing that it's taught me is that you can feel sad about something. I will always feel sad to a greater or lesser degree that I never had the chance in this lifetime to mother my own child because I'm sure it's an extraordinary and challenging experience and a very unique kind of love.

And I'm curious and I'm sad that I won't get that experience. But it's taught me that I can be at peace with that sadness as well, that sadness really shapes your life in a profound way alongside happiness. There's a depth to it. I feel more understanding of life and what it is to be human because of that experience. So massively powerful, like, just mind-blowing. I just had chills all over my body, like everything you were just saying. But how cool, you know?

Yeah. To be able to, there's so many people that have such high expectations on things that they want in life or things they think they want or whatever, but to actually come to a place to be completely at peace with something. I don't think there's a bigger challenge, really. and the fact that you've done that so successfully is I'm just so like blown away. I think it's so admirable. Thank you so much. And what a gift that you got to speak to that person. I do think like on a spiritual level, I'm like my whole belief system is God shows up

through people, places, situations, experiences, right? So it's like whatever you turn that, your thoughts over your prayers, whatever it is that you turn over and then you get the, oh, I want you to talk to someone. And it's like that's how your prayer is being answered. Yes. In that moment. And we never know how that's going to come through. Yes. And we never know what person says what that can lift something inside of us and be like, oh, I'm actually okay. Totally agree. What a gift that is. Such a gift and also so instructive on the power of surrender. Yeah. And surrender is so different. from giving up. I think I also had a fear about quitting. Like, would that mean that I wasn't strong

enough and I needed to push through because the battle was trying to test whether I would be a good mother in that respect? And actually, for me, it wasn't about quitting. It was about surrender to a plan that is bigger than my own. Yeah. It's like there's this image of, it's like, have you seen that image where I think it's, it might be Jesus, but it's a cartoon. It's not really a drawing of him. And he's holding a little bear, and the little girl is standing in front of him crying, hysterically reaching out. But behind him, he has this gargantuous bear. And it's like, she wants that little thing so bad.

But if she could just let go of that little bear, behind him, he was waiting to give her way more than she could have even imagined. And I think it's really hard to do when your brain has been trained to look for the thing you've programmed it to want. That is so profound. That is so true. That's so true. Yeah. It's hard. It's really hard.

And I've been on a whole journey myself with comparison. Oh yeah. I know it's so tough. Because we live in a culture where we're constantly comparing our insides, like we know how insecure, how neurotic, how messy we feel. And we now live in an age where we can compare our insides with everyone else's seemingly perfect outsides through the prism of social media. And that's really hard if you're someone who wants to do the best. Yeah. It's hard sometimes to separate being the best version of yourself from trying to be the best in every format, in every aspect of your life and, like, trying to compete with others.

And I've sort of understood now that what I value is more depth, less noise, that the community I have is so powerful and important that it's about connecting more deeply with them than connecting less noise. than connecting less deeply with millions of people. Right. And that's in terms of sort of professional success. So if my podcast isn't number one, that's okay. Because actually what's at number one is potentially a conversation that I value less than the sort of depths of conversation that I'm having on a weekly basis. And to be frank, the depth of conversation I'm having with you two, that's the gift.

this is amazing. That's where the meaning lies. And yet the comparison thing is very tricky to navigate. But I think I now understand about life that it is our role is to show up in the struggle and to dig deep and be the us-est versions of ourselves, if that makes sense. Because we are incredibly unique. That's the thing that we have. Like actually my job is not to try and be a version of someone else.

My job is to try and show up as the most authentic version of me and then trust that the plan involves a gargantuan bear. And that that will happen if I just keep showing up with truth. Right, right. Yeah, completely. And I think, too, it goes back to that anxious brain is that it's also not our fault that we compare. Our brains have been programmed to keep us alive.

Yes. And in order to do that, we look at the village. and go, am I doing it, right? So I can not be plucked out and killed. And so I think a lot of that, if people really understood the way the brain worked, they would have more compassion for themselves because they'd be able to say, like, oh, it's actually natural to compare yourself. It's what you do with that information that matters. Exactly. And so many of us, myself included, are not only operating from the anxious brain space, which is doing its best for you. It's absolutely correct. We do need to connect to survive as humans, but also operating from a childhood space of

unhealed wounds that often lead us into that spot of reaction rather than response. And our poor child selves are doing the best that they can. They're doing the best that they could with the tools they had available at the time. And I had this revelation over the summer where I went to with my husband to a wellness retreat in Thailand, which is amazing. It's the one that White Lotus was loosely based on. Oh, wow. I want to go. It's amazing. I had this incredible conversation with a Buddhist monk about some stuff I was struggling with. And I had always thought that the way to heal my child's self was to parent her. And that was another way in which I thought I was failing. I was like, I don't know what the answers are. Child, Elizabeth, like, I don't know.

And he said, no, no, no. What you need to do is simply acknowledge how she's feeling. That's it. You don't need to have the answer. You live in the question. And that has been, again, really profoundly healing for me. Yeah. Yeah. That now it's just, if I feel her, me, feeling anxious or hurt or scared or upset because someone's done something, all I have to do is say, I completely get it. Of course you feel like that. That's right. And then it goes.

It's bearing witness. It's almost like not new, but it's very present in parenting nowadays. It's like acknowledging feelings. Yeah. Instead of like, you're okay. You're okay. You're fine. I can see that you're sad right now.

Yes. I understand. I would feel sad. too, you know, or I can see that look like that hurt. I can see that you're hurt right now. It's all about just acknowledging their feelings, which it's always been around, but it just seems, doesn't it seem like it's just more now, like really? Oh, it is. I feel like there's an awareness to like, we're not there to fix each other's problems. Right. We're there to bear witness. Yeah. And like, hold your hand while you go through it because the minute we get in there and

try and fix it, we're signaling you, we're signaling you don't have the answer. Yes. Which is false because each one of us has it. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. And you're also signaling you can't be in this spot. Like you need to move off. Get out of it.

Yes. Yeah. One of the things. And that's not a failure. Rachel has just spilt. That's just me smelling coffee all over myself. One of the things at our school that was my favorite because I went to spiritual psychology school. And in that school, there was 200 people in the room and we'd do really heavy deep work.

And there's Kleenex under each seat, but you weren't allowed to hand someone a Kleenex. And they said because you're signaling when you do that to make it stop, clean it up. Let me help you. Versus sit with them while they cry. If they want a Kleenex, they have the resources to get it. You're just there to bear witness. And I remember that little distinction changed everything for me. That I feel like...

Thanks, Papa Kevin. The truth bombs I'm getting from this. This is so... That's amazing. She is... Yeah. That is amazing. I also think I've learnt the value of simply saying...

Oh, thank you. I'm so sorry you went through that. Right. I'm so sorry. I think it's very important to acknowledge, again, because some people find it uncomfortable. If someone goes through a grieving process and they've lost someone that they love, for other people it can sometimes feel very awkward. Like they don't want to raise it in case it retortizes them or makes them sad or they don't want to,

or they feel uncomfortable about potentially losing someone in their life. Yeah. And I always say, you know, you should just acknowledge it. And I'm sorry as a complete sentence because exactly as you were saying, it makes you feel seen in your pain, but you're not fixing the pain because some pain can't be fixed. That's right. Some pain is too. Some pain is the price we pay for love. Yeah, it's true. I want to go to that spiritual psychology school. USM. It's amazing. Does it still there? Yeah. Yeah. They moved to locations, but it's called

the University of Santa Monica. It's spiritual psychology. It's a master's program and they do like, I think a year program at a time when we did it was two years, but you'd love it. That's something. Can we talk about the telepathy tapes? Please. But can I practice for people? Can I ask you the question that you asked me? Yeah. On a sort of spiritual plane, why do you feel you have chosen the sons that you've chosen or they have chosen you as their parents? Yes.

I've asked myself that many times. And I think that from the first day Shepard came into my life, my second born, I think I'm in 12-step recovery program. And one of the premises is one day at a time. And I got that cognitively. I'd never gotten that experientially. And so when my son was born and he had so many health complications, if I were to go further than the minute I was in, it was utter despair. And so the gift of Shepard was just be right here. and he teaches me presence on a daily basis because I'll be like he's never going to be able to take care of himself well I'm going to die who's going to take care of him that and then it's like it

to me the spiritual lesson is just be here like you do not need to go further than this moment to know what's going to happen next so I think he's been the biggest spiritual teacher I've ever had And then as far as Elliot goes, he's just my little soulmate. So I think that I was, I was, I think I was gifted my children one because I don't know. I think I can. Like, you know, obviously I am the mom for him. And I think it's a lot of my own blocks. I'm realizing like when he wants to leave the room, so do I.

as opposed to you can do hard things. Yes. Right? Right. That's the thing. Yeah. What about Breyer? Oh, God.

What? How old is Breyer? She's 11, just turned 11. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. You know, she's a lot different than me in a lot of ways. She's super sensitive, very sensitive.

very inquisitive, very deep thinker, all of it. I have to answer a lot of questions, which has forced me to really think about things, which I've kind of always gone by life, like do, do, do, do, you know, and just like, and so that's been really like, oh, we have to think about things. What's it like for an 11-year-old girl in California right now? Again, my daughter is a very unique specimen. Okay. She's an old soul, maybe. Old soul, very, like, innocent, you know, grasping onto childhood, not falling into any of the popular things, any of the things that are talked about.

Like, she is just truly unique. She really is. She really is. But also like very just knows who she is. Yeah. And she'd be like, no, I don't want to do that. I'm just going to do something else where I am a huge people pleaser. Yeah.

So to see her be able to. Now she can be, you know, people can be like, I want to eat your snack gummies and she'll just give them up. You know what I mean? Like it's not like she's just. Yeah, but I don't think it's coming from a people pleasey thing. It's not. No, she's just like they wanted them. Yeah.

She's like, well, they really wanted them. Yeah. I wouldn't stop asking. So I was like, all right, here you go. But I will say she definitely, like, knows who she is, which is cool. Yeah. I still don't know who I am. It feels like at times.

Do you, so I, I half relate to what you just said there about not knowing who you are in the sense that I went through years of, like, inveterate people pleasing. And it was really toxic and romantic relationships where I was like, yeah, let me just shape shift to be. whoever I think you want me to be. And that way you will never leave me and I will be happy. Right. Spoiler alert, it didn't work. Yeah, right. But actually, I think I did know myself.

Aged four, when I knew I wanted to be a writer, I did know myself. Yeah. And then conditioning and society and everything else got in the way. Mm-hmm. And I feel that in my 40s now, I'm stripping that back and getting much closer to who I always knew that I was, age four. Mm-hmm. So cool.

Yeah, I think 40s are a magical decade. Me too. You know, it's been very, it's cool because you're like, this is what I want to, my time is precious and this is what I want to focus on and these are the people I want to be around and these are the things I enjoy doing and that's what I want to do. And it's none of the expectations society expectations or, you know, all of that. So I relate to that a lot. And it is stripping it back and be like, no, these are the things I want to be doing with my time.

Also, we lived through the 90s. Oh, my goodness. Which especially for you, I mean, I wasn't in the public eye in the 90s. But I just can't even imagine the pressure. Yeah. I mean, and as women, that was a toxic decade in so many ways. Yeah. No, I think you're a little like Breyer in that, though.

What? Like, so Breyer isn't being touched by the kind of atmosphere. Yeah. Right? Social media. expectations, girls growing up too fat. Like she's not being really touched by that. She's Briar.

And she's having this kind of like kid experience and kind of sticking to that. The same thing that happened with you and getting famous young. You didn't get swept in that environment at all. You were kind of like an odd bird in that. That's interesting. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Maybe I am.

Yeah. Oh. That's why she's like me. Yeah. Because if you think of it, there is a. But there is a parallel there, like, you didn't get touched by that. Yeah. Whereas my son knows about the Epstein files.

Oh, geez. Oh, my God. I'm not even kidding. Oh, my gosh. I was like, you can't teach people about that at school. Oh, my God. Well, on that note. This has been such a wonderful conversation.

Oh, I've loved it so much. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. No, I really, really appreciate you both taking the time. and allowing me the space. Oh, my God, no. You're incredible. Yeah, you really are. We're so grateful.

Can we be friends? Yeah, we are. Oh, thank goodness. I'm going to show you my crisps and you're going to give us the psychics number. Yes, yes. It's a fair exchange. Yes. That is a fair exchange.

Thank you so much for being here. I've loved it. Thank you. Loved it. We've got to do one of your books as we started a book club. Oh, my gosh. I took my headphones on. Yeah, you did take your headphones on.

I can't stand to listen to my own voice. I love myself. Hmm, interesting. Hey guys, it doesn't interrupt you. Everything interrupts me. It's called my brain. Knock, knock. It doesn't stop.

Knock, knock. Who's there? Interrupting chicken. No. Knock, knock. Who's there? Interrupting chicken. Interrupting chicken.

Oh, my God. You were so committed to that becock. That was a good one, too. It was a good one. Thank you. That one, I love when I forget that one, and then they say it, and I'm like, fuck, I forgot to interrupt them. Stop it. You just keep sitting there?

They'll be like interrupting chicken who, and I'll be like, fuck. Rachel, that's so funny. Oh, my God, that's so good. Why did the old man throw his clock out of the window? Why? Because he wanted to see time fly. Nice. Oh, yep.

We have elementary school children with elementary school jokes. Jeff follows a dad joke Instagram. You would love these men. This would be my favorite. There's nothing I love more than a dad joke. Okay. It's two guys. I don't know if it started with one, but he'll do it with different guys.

And they sit on the dock in Tahoe. It's too mad. And they just do dad jokes. Very dead jokes. Very deadpan. Very serious. Very up your alley hole. That is so up my alley hole. I can't even stand it. I'm going to make sure he sends it to you. Really, though. He studies them. Nothing I love more than a dad joke. Jeff and I are so much more like, yeah. I know. I know. What did you say? We were sitting at an event. And I said something and like, you were like, I just got so scared realizing how. much even Jeffer actually alike. It scares him sometimes, too. How much we're alike? Yeah. Oh, he doesn't like it. No, I don't think he doesn't like it. I think it's startling to think he's like,

you know what I mean? He's like, I think I said it's too peopley in here. Yeah, he doesn't. It was too peopley. Yeah. It was way too peopley in there. Don't you think? Where were we? At the event last week. What event? Oh, Jesus Christ. Oh, oh, the gala. Yes. I don't. Olivia, we were at a quote-unquote gala event, right?

For Art of Elysium, we love. Incredible chef. Olivia. Leah, it was Olivia Leah and I, and I, and I'm like, I want to go back to the hotel room. Like, I'm done. Like, can we just? Yeah. Olivia was like, no, I feel like we should wait.

Like, I think we should just. She was not, she would not. She did not want to leave. Here's the thing. You would have stayed until the sun came up if you could. I think there's something inherently different about me than most people. Not all. That's a good thing, though.

I like that about you. I think I like people so much. She fucking loves talking to people. Kevin, I can't even tell you. I, she loves it so much. She actually got mad at me because we were, you know, We had to sign seats at a table, which I hate when they do that. And I was on the end, which meant I was going to have to talk to a stranger.

I was like, Olivia, you have to switch with me. You love talking to people. Do not put me on the end. She fought me on it. That was because of the angle, because I didn't want to have to angle myself that way. But in any other circumstance, she will jump at the chance to talk to anybody. It was just because she was on the wrong side of me. Yeah.

She fought me on it. Because of her eyesight. Like she has funny eyesight. Yeah. So I couldn't see as well. So I'm like, I don't want to be able to like. I couldn't see. Oh, no.

We put Johnny on the end. No, we put Johnny, which is fine. Because it's always, here's the thing, though. I love the people that you also don't have to talk to. Yep. That you don't feel like when you're with them. You don't feel like you have to talk to them. Here's what I don't like either.

I don't like it when you have to do all the work. No. People you have to do. Who we were just talking about somebody like that. And I can't remember who it was. But yeah, when you do all the work. Yeah, and they don't do any of the work with you. Yeah.

How do you feel about that? It's stressful for sure. I was thinking of another podcast that you both did Hollywood Handbook. Sean and Hayes have the same. Sean has the same grievance with Hayes because Hayes is extremely sociable. And so whenever we do a live show when we talk to people after, Sean always jokes that his conversations with the fans are like, Good show.

And then Sean going, thanks. And he looks over and Hayes is like, my cousin's name is Greg too. That's us. That's us. But I feel like it never works with two people being the same. Yeah. Like partnerships are usually, like, that's why we work. That's the same with Jeff and I.

You never have two of the same. No. Do you? I have two friends, Bree and Solana, that are both very social butterflies. I would say they're like, One of them is like just capital E extrovert, and then the other one is just very social. And it is they just like can steal any room.

And it's funny because their partners are both extremely quiet. So that's kind of an unusual one for me. But they're the best. They're two of my best friends. Aw. Got it. Yeah, we're three couples and we go by the Sinister Six. So we go to Vegas together like twice a year.

It's super fun. Oh, yeah. I wish we had traditions like that. Do you guys do like the whole like group photo? I was going to see. We take a selfie. Yeah, yeah, we do a big orgy. Yeah, big orgy.

We go to Vegas, have an orgy, go home. A little buffet on the way out. I fucking love a buffet. As does Jeff. I'm telling you. It's my Virgos. Yeah. It's Jeff.

Yeah. say we have to go, but we have to go, unfortunately. I'm sorry. Sorry. Love you. I mean it. Bye. I am the people. I'm then. That was a hate gum podcast.