Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Finding Where You’re Supposed to Be with Kurt Sutter

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Kurt Sutter (creator of Sons of Anarchy) talks to Rachel and Oliva about his marriage with the incredible Katey Sagal, making memorable television and what scares him most. Later, the ladies chat with Producer Kevin about why is the booger so vulnerable, food in your teeth and people who one-up stories in a conversation. Watch the video of this episode HERE!Like the show? Rate Broad Ideas 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts and SpotifyAdvertise on Broad Ideas via Gumball.fm See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a Headgum podcast. Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yello, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room,

and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast, on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Rachel. Anytime, Olivia. And Kevin. Thanks, Rachel. Thanks, Olivia. Yeah. Thanks.

Very excited today. Kurt Sutter is joining us. I mean, going into this, we were intimidated, even though we've met him, but it was over Zoom. Intiminated because he's such a badass, like, cool. Super cool. He's pretty cool, right? He's like the coolest. Yeah, you can see the vibe change here. Everyone was like, wow, that's a real cool guy. That is the coolest guy. I know. I know.

And he's even cooler when you talk to him. Yeah. Yeah, it was really fun. And everyone's going to hear that for themselves. Mm-hmm. We, Stan, Kurt. We do. Yeah.

Yeah. Their whole situation. The whole thing. The whole combination package is epic. Yep. Let's get into it. Let's do it. You've moved.

You're here. So we're here. Cool. Yeah. We're in a studio. I just started recording. Great. Because we don't get, we don't do anything to get it.

We're already in. Oh, that's how we like it anyways. You guys are very similar. All good. Yeah, we do. Yeah. We have, we have no process. That's the best kind of process, right?

It is. That's why we like it. It's like just what's happening. Yeah. But it was so fun. So we were on Kurt and your wife Katie's podcast and we had such a good time. And Katie was on ours before. No, did you have Katie live?

Yeah. She came over. Of course. She knew your house. Yes, she came over to the house. Oh, what a good girl. Yeah, where was? Oh, I was away. I was away, I think. You were. Calgary? That's what, right? So, but here I am. Here you are. We're so happy that you are here.

And we were talking, you know, before we started recording. But it's just been a crazy time. But everyone's... Yeah. We're whole. And just got a lovely email from Michael Gray, who is who a great actor who I worked with on abandons and just sort of checking in. And, you know, it's one of those things where you, you know people are being inundated with whatever. Right, you're right.

Especially if you don't live here full time. People are like, where is, like, pass it? You know, like they just see the news. Right. And I was just explaining how the city is off. I feel like the city was off during COVID. obviously not to this degree. Right, right.

But it started then where something changed. Yeah, oh, absolutely. And now this is just taking it to a whole different level. Yeah, that's very stute. I believe that's true. But it's that weird sense of, is this home? Right, right. Is this, am I okay here?

Right. And whereas I think with COVID, there was, it was, more about, are we okay here on the planet? Exactly. It's just, it's more localized, right? Right, right. But, yeah, definitely the same vibe. Same vibe. And it's all trauma, too, you know, that everyone's going through. You know, I was raised, born and raised in L.A. So for me, yeah, it's home and her too, but it's also like what you're saying. It's like, well, why are we here now? Well, it doesn't feel stable. It doesn't, Not like anything ever really does, but. Yeah, let's get, yeah.

Right. Right. I mean, maybe some people feel stable out in different parts of the world. Yeah. It's wild because my business manager lost his house in Malibu. And his house was a rebuild from the fire in the early 2000s. Like the lots sat empty for a while, and then they finally. rebuilt. So he, that was a rebuilt from another five. And, and what do you do? You love it. You own it,

the property, and you rebuild, I guess. And it's the, there's a part of it that is truly the American spirit. But then at some point, you're, it's, it feels, are we just saying, are we just saying fuck you to Mother Nature. Right. I dare you. And I was always worried about earthquakes. Same. Right.

Now earthquakes. I'm like, all right, bring, you know. Right. I'm no, we're waiting for that one. Oh, man. But do you question, here's what, when I was, when my nephew. I'm just going to say, this is a fantastic way to start off a podcast. You know.

Real cozy. We keep things light around here. Who was the guy in the, in the, in the 80s and 90s? Was it Irwin? Winkler, the guy that did all the disaster movies, I feel like we're just setting up a series. God, I'm sorry, I interrupt you. Which one's your favorite? Let's do the big hits.

No, when my nephew was little, he got sick. He was like four years old. He got a cold, right? And he asked his mom to pass him a glass. And when he spoke, he didn't have a voice. He was like, can you pass me a glass? And then he went, I'm the bad guy. You know?

Right. He was like, what? And now in Los Angeles, I look at it and I'm like, am I the idiot? Like, are we the dummies that are still here? You know, like when I look at the reality of it. I've been in L.A. I've been in L.A. a long time. I was thinking about that.

I first moved out here before anybody in this room was born. In the late 80s and then went back to New York. and then to grad school and then back to L.A. in the like 97, and I've been here since, ever since. So you did get the North Ridge Quake. I left, no, I was here from like 87 to 92. I left the Christmas, the holiday season before that January.

Because it was January, right? I left right before that. And I mean, I was living in Midwilshire, and that didn't get rocked as badly as some of the other areas. But, no, I had snuck out right before that. Wow. No, I got, really, it's the fires that have plagued us for the last 15 years. My goodness. Jeez.

Yeah. Yeah. That is a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's because of me. Am I the bad guy? Yeah, exactly.

No, it is interesting. And just so you know, I'm 81, she's 79. Yeah, you guys are, I know. Yeah. The solemn pact with Satan is still intact. When did you meet Katie? First of all, Katie. Can we talk about her for two minutes?

Let's talk about her the whole time. I mean, what? She is. A woman. Like, yeah, no, your wife is absolutely incredible. Yeah, she's a good girl. Yeah, and your relationship seems just like the coolest. It is.

It's, you know, we have, like everyone, we've had ups and downs, and we had, without going into detail that would embarrass her, you know, we had some crunchy years. But I do believe that showing up and sticking around. for the crunchy part, for the uncomfortable part, and working through that shit ultimately leads to the next phase of marriage, if you will. The part of marriage where you go, oh, I'm with you for the rest of the ride. Do you know what I mean?

I mean, you say that and you acknowledge that. But at some point, you, like, it settles in and you go, So, oh, and yeah, even like yesterday, it's, you know, every once in a while I'll just have that realization of like, oh, I'm so glad I didn't fuck this up, you know? Yeah. And I'm able to share that with her in a way that, you know, I believe, especially if you've been through some rough times, I think the acknowledgement of the connection. Yes, it's behavior and showing up, but there's also that sense of letting the other person know what their value is. And we try to do that, you know, in between arguments. That's nice.

And I heard you talk about it on your podcast. Someone asked a question along the lines of like, how do you work through things? And one of the things I thought was the most important thing in what you shared was you said that there was a time. where you realized, I've got to just look at my own stuff and work on that and not look to fix the relationship, but look to handle what's on my side of the street. Right, right. Obviously, there's so much recovery in your guys' relationship. Right, right.

And when I heard that, I'm like, everyone needs to hear that. That's such an important message of like, whatever it is. When we go in and look at trying to fix a problem without looking at our part, how can we even influence any change on it whatsoever? No, I think that's very true. It's, it's, you know, I had to, you know, when you're in the discomfort and you think you know what's going to fix you or you think it, that you need X, then the work becomes about, it becomes about the achievement.

you're not in the present you're sort of that's when I have that I'll be okay and like I knew on a on a pretty deep level that a I didn't want to fuck my kid up and and split and also that that I wasn't supposed you know like this is where I was supposed to be and then had that realization that what if there was nothing wrong with the marriage and what if there was it was about doing the work that I needed to do and and began that process didn't believe it was going to help you know as we do so we then you know incrementally things are not even revealed to you as much as suddenly you there's a sense of of relief or connection or whatever it was and and and we both did that

I mean, Katie really began that process before I did. So she was really clear about what she wanted and who she was in the marriage and all that stuff. And I had to kind of show up, even if it was for me to be able to say, I did the work so now I know what the right decision is. And whatever that decision was, at least I knew that I was making a choice that was based on some depth and some thought. And ultimately just brought us, not even, to say brought us closer is we were,

it's not that we were miles and miles apart. I think what it did is it just allowed us a level of intimacy that we couldn't see. And, you know, because there's different levels that I think early in the marriage, you know, it's, it's we relationships like, I believe, go through different incarnations of love and attraction and pat, like it's, you know, I have a friend who, who I adore, but he's like, I don't believe marriage, people say marriage is hard work, and that's, but marriage is easy. I'm like, no.

What? So he's not married? No, he is married. But it's, you know, if your wife is the head of your fan club, I guess it's easier. But it, but it, but it, you know, when I say hard word, I don't mean like it's grueling, but it, it, it, you know, and it, you have to look at shit. And, and if you don't, then the divide begins. Then the silence begins. Right.

Then the discomfort begins. And sometimes it manifests into, you know, dysfunction and acting out. Sometimes it's just, you know, quiet misery. Yeah. There's, you know, there's a lot of that happening everywhere. Yeah, well, for sure. Yeah. But you guys met.

Were you in your 40s when you met? I was, yeah. I had a brief marriage to a lovely woman who was now, who recently, passed but she was um we were like best friends and it we it should have never it should have never sort of gone beyond that but we we were at that point where all of our friends had been married and on paper we made sense we're like I guess we do this and and and and it only lasted a year and that ended and and I had been sober a while at that point, but I realized there were some relationship patterns that it was doing over and over and over.

No way. Yes. Why never heard of that? How about that? That's so wild. And an addict? Like, what? An alcoholic with a relationship problem?

Crazy. So that's when I was in our sister program. I was in, Ellenon was my main program for probably about three years. And yeah, I guess I was 40 when I started that program and met Kate there. After about, like I've seen her around and met her there in 2001, I believe. And I think we told this, she probably told the story, but I was writing at that point and, you know, really living hand to mouth. and it was right, I hadn't, I didn't have a full-time job. And I was, I didn't want to ask her out without having a job.

Very respectable. I just, you know, and, and then I got my first gig on the shield, and I, and then she, she was gone. And she wasn't at that meeting. It was a Saturday morning meeting, which I've started going to again. And, but she, I guess her kids had soccer on Saturdays. And so she was gone for like six months or whatever. And she was there one week. And I sort of stumbled up to her.

And I don't remember what I said. You told her you got a job. I asked her out for coffee. And for the following week after the next week after the meeting. And she said yes. And then brought her sponsor with her. No, she didn't. Yeah, to coffee.

Wait, do I remember that? Yeah, I do remember that. Yeah. Okay, yes. That's amazing. Genius. Because she has a, as she says, she has a bad picker. So.

But it was great because her sponsors. Can I borrow her sponsor? Yeah. Her sponsor, her, her sponsor's husband was a long time sober guy. And his favorite show at that time was the shield. So I was like in. And at some point in the, in the coffee date, her, her, her, She looked at her and her sponsor shared a look and there was a nod and her sponsor left.

Oh, that's so cute. And then she walked her down the aisle. Yeah. But yes. So I was November. Yeah, I was 41 or 42. Yeah. Yeah.

So we were late bloomers. No, but this is, it's interesting. And I'm mainly the age thing because I, you know, I date, whatever. I'm fine. But because then you're talking about like... Let's go down that road. We're going down that road, Kurt, okay?

You can't sit in that chair and not help me here. So, you know, you're 40, you meet Katie, like, and you're talking about, like, her value and everything. So I want to know, like, is it... Do you believe, as a man from a male perspective, that the age definitely plays into that and the maturity of acknowledging that, or do you attribute it to something else? Well, Kate's six years older than me. And I, like, there was no, I didn't have a criteria for, you know, I knew I dated younger women and who, you know, who have been, who have felt like contemporaries and I didn't feel like the age was a thing. and then others who, you know, you're really aware that you're operating out of two different boxes.

And so, yeah, I mean, there was definitely a maturity there. And look, at that point, I knew that if I was dating anyone who was age appropriate, chances are they were either previously married or, you know, they would be in some process of, you know, along the way. And, you know, Katie came with two kids. And so that was a consideration. So I knew she was like a full-on grown-up. Right. Right. You know? And I'm attracted to people who are. successful and I don't mean that in a monetary

or career sense as much as they have their shit together they know what they want out of life they're self-sufficient I was clear like in that

when that marriage ended and I did that work that I was not a guy that should be taking on a project you know right so Yeah. And nor did I want to be anybody else's project. So that, yeah, I was, you know, I knew she was a full-on person.

Yeah, human. Yeah. Human. And she really, the thing I admire most about her is that she seems to lead with the human first. It's like, yeah, she's an actress. Yes, she's a singer. All of those things. but when you're in her present, your presence, you're like, I'm just with a really evolved human.

And she's also really sexy, too. Yeah. Right? I think she's like the prototype. I'm not even just saying that. No, that's very kind. I really believe that. Like, she's the business in my eyes.

She, yeah, she does have, you know, it's interesting because she was raised in the circus that we, we're in. It never had the polish, perhaps, that other people think it has or try to give it. And we've been very clear with our kids that, you know, Kate was very, as was I, was important to tell them about all the mistakes and all the jobs we didn't get. Right. Right. And they, so our kids had a clear understanding of, of the struggle. Yeah. So she's grateful for what she's been able to do and the opportunity to do it.

And, but yeah, she is a, I think that one of the, one of the things that attracted me most about her. And I was not a guy who really had any designs on being a father. I did not think it was a good idea for me to procreate. I just, I was like, let's end it here, man. There's enough of this. And not that I was against it, but I, there was no pull. But I was, I marveled at her maternal instincts and who she was as a mom. And, you know, not to go down this road, but I,

I didn't necessarily have that growing up. And we like all roads. Yeah, you can go down that road. And it really was through her relationship with her kids that I had a sense of, like, just a better model of what that relationship was supposed to be. And that really made me think, all right, maybe I can do this. And I really was in, you know, in apprentice mode those first five years with the kid. Like I had no designs on imposing myself as their father. They had a father.

I just sort of sat back and watched her, took her lead. And really my job for that first five years with them was making them laugh. I like that. That's all I did. But from silly voices to Pratt Falls, to full-on. I want all of that right now. Make me laugh. To full-on characters.

Like, I would do anything to make them laugh. And that was sort of my, and it still is. My son and I were just such fucking wise asses. Like, the text chain is, I just texted him. The other day, it was like, hey, man, you want to have lunch? And he texted me back and goes, you need to borrow money? Love. That is our weakness.

Yeah. That is our weakness. That happens too often and you need tomorrow money. You know, so yeah, so there's, that was my role there. But I really did go to school on her as far as, oh, this is how it's, you know, not that she didn't make mistakes, not that we don't make mistakes, but we, there really was a sense of, oh, this is what the connection is supposed to. to be. And that began the process where we had Esme. And so all of that came out of me mostly observing,

you know, her. But that was one of the qualities early on that attracted me to her in that was that fierce mother vibe, you know, protecting. And she was very clear about. And she was very clear about my, like, we never went to her house. Like, I didn't meet the kids for like six months. I had an apartment up by La Cienica Park, and we went there all the time to have our frolics. Well, I've told the story a thousand times, but I'll tell it again. The first time I met Jackson and Sarah was at the house, their house in Encino. And Jackson was, I think, four.

Sarah was six maybe. And they were running around the house. And at one point, I'm walking down a hall towards their bedroom. And Jackson comes running full speed at me and just like yelling like a banchie. And he's coming at me. And the only thing I had raised prior to that was dogs. So my instinct was to pull my knee up. You know, when like a dog comes out?

I panic. I pulled my knee up and I caught him in the chest. Oh my God. And he fell down and knocked the wind out of him. No, you didn't. And he started crying. And then at the top of his lungs started screaming, I hate you. I hate you. And I just looked at Katie. And that was the moment where I was like, I should probably go. Oh, my God. This was so clearly a mistake. I should just leave. And for Kate, and for Kate, and for Kate, you know, I mean, she reacted, but the part of her was like, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like welcome. Exactly. Right. And I think I was so in shock, which is why I probably didn't leave. But anyhow, I did stick around. And then I just, oh my God. I just, I remember at Christmas, I bought them ridiculously expensive gifts. And they're opening up their gifts. And this is from my, this is, and it was like I got Jackson like a giant train. set or something. And he's looking at it. He's like, who's this from? And he just looks at me.

And he was just, they were just like, all right. Okay. Okay. Calm down. Yeah, exactly. Slow down, buddy. But, um, that's amazing. Yeah, but so that was, uh, I don't know where this question started, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yeah, we know where it went. Yeah. We know where it went. That's good stuff. That is amazing. I mean, But they were so young, though, when you were. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know, I don't know. Jackson knows that story.

I don't know if he remembers it. But, oh, I do. He's super talented, too. You guys are ridiculous as a family. I was watching that show, tell me lies. I didn't know who he was. Oh. And I stopped it to look him up because I'm like, who is this human?

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard for me to watch. Have you not? Yeah. I mean, I have. Oh, it is. It's just hard to, because I know grace really well because they're together. Right, sure. So it's, it's just like, oh, okay.

You don't want to watch them like make out. Yeah, exactly. You know. Awkward thing. My husband kept coming in and every time he'd come in, it was a sex scene. He's like, what are you doing? And it was like a marathon because I binge it. I couldn't stop watching it.

And he's like, what is happening? I'm like, just leave for like a week and I'll see you on the other side. I know. No, no, no, no. It's got a great soap quality. It's so good. Yeah, it's doing very well. And I think they start shooting again soon. Yeah. Well, you know, shows that do really well and that are amazing, we need to talk about yours a little bit. Dude. I mean, let's really, let's get into that. That show triggered me a lot, Sons of Anarchy. Do you know that? No, you've never told me.

And here's why. Triggered you, like. I hate shows that make me want to act. I will avoid them. I'll be like, I can't do it because it brings up this like fire inside of me. And I rewatched the pilot recently. And I was like, yes, this show pisses me off. Because it's so good from the writing to the casting to the scenes to the, I mean, it's one of my favorite shows.

Oh, thank you. How does that happen? Like, I want to know as a writer what comes first, like the idea, the plot, like, Take us through that. Okay. No, I mean, I've been in, yeah, it's interesting. I'm in development mode again, which is, you know, which is exciting and terrifying because I'm working on three or four different things.

But for me, like I know pretty quickly if I understand how to execute the idea. And I had a lunch with the Lincolns-John and his dad art, and they had this idea. They wanted to do a sort of a West Coast version of the Sopranos. And I didn't really know. I had worked on one project in the Outlaw motorcycle world, but didn't really know much about it. And that was their pitch.

And so I didn't quite know what to do with that. But I understood their draw to that and why it hadn't been done before. And I had not done anything on it for like a month. And I was working on other things. And my agent called and said, hey, let's not piss off Art Linson. So you should like, are you going to do this or not? And I said, fair enough, and so I spent a weekend sort of digging in and digging into the world. And really just from the basic research was the whole, within the course of an afternoon,

saw the Hamlet archetype, saw the, you know, that his dad was, was Hamlet. father and that had had been killed and like I just I kind of saw the whole thing in the course of an afternoon and and if and that's if I can if it happens that way then I then I can then I can then I can run with it I mean it always changes and morphs but when I understand how to get in then I can usually go at it pretty quickly and pretty thoroughly. I'm also, you know, I've realized I'm not the guy to perhaps adapt anything because it's harder for me to take something that already exists and figure out how to execute it, which I have no problem with.

I feel the most underused talent in Hollywood is imagination. True. So I feel like it's that's my job as a storyteller to create the story, maybe not just retell. Or at least, yes, Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet, they've all, that archetypes we've, I've I've used it, but it's easier for me to get in through my own idea than someone else's. But that's sort of the process, right? And once I had that framework, I knew what the show was.

I could create the pitch document. I knew how to sell it, so to speak. And then the process begins. and what works, what doesn't work, what do you expand, what doesn't expand, and, you know, and it went through a lot of changes, and we did a big reshoot. Actually, with Mayans and sons, we did, like, complete reshoots of the pilot because of actor changes. And, and, but that, you know, but there was a, there was a basic belief on my part, and in that case, John Langreff on his part that there were important stories to tell and worlds that people

would want to visit. So we were able to, who was able to sort of let me go. Yeah, that's awesome. I saw a lot of program in it too, even the way they conducted their meetings. Oh yeah, yeah. I was like, that's, even the way they end like, okay, and treasury and da-da-da-da, and that's our time. And I was like, there's so much program in that. It's the irony of outlaw culture, at least in that world, that it's all about, you know, being outlaws and being anarchists and living outside the box and no rules. And yet there are so many rules within that, you know.

And it's very militaristic in terms of, of what you can do and what you can't do. And so there's a lot of, not rigidity, but there's a lot of structure around how that life, how you live that life. And so all that stuff was, you know, happens. And, yeah, there's a dude who collects the money, who pays that, you know, it's all that stuff.

They've got their own code of ethics. Yeah. And it's a lot tighter than a lot of people out there on the streets, too. Oh, yeah. Like the things they will and won't do are firmer than most people. Yeah, it is, especially, you know, the idea of living on the fringe, if you will, you, there's an element of danger, there's an element of whether that danger is from rivals, whether that danger is from law enforcement, whatever it is.

that you need to, at the very least, trust the person riding next to you with a level that perhaps most civilians don't have to. And so I think that's what breeds that deeper sense of camaraderie, you know. At least that was my experience. Yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense. I grew up with a brother that grew up in jail. And so I've heard a lot from him on the kind of rules they lived by. Oh, yeah.

It's very similar. It's like, you know, never take from family. They've got these codes that are like, it's not crook codes. It's crook codes. Right, right, right, right. No, it's interesting. Yeah, the law of thieves. Exactly.

That's it. That's the way to say it. Crook codes. Yeah. But I do like crook codes. Kurt Sutter's next show, Crookos. My unauthorized autobiogic.

I was, you know, there's a project I'm working or maybe gearing up to do now and I was talking about it to the guys I'm working with, but also to Kate too. There, you know, that, and I know this because of I've experienced it in that I know a lot of law enforcement because of my work on the shield and I have a brother-in-law who's a Fed

and I've met a lot of military guys through the show and the Navy SEALs like the Navy the Navy SEALs that took down bin Laden came to the set and did a walk through and And there was a one guy in particular who was very articulate about it that the reason they plug into the show is that personality type that pull towards risk, if you will. A lot of dudes, it's, you know, they reach that point where they can go either way. Do I go, you know, do I go that way? And is that who I become and how I carve out my place?

Or do I join the academy? Or do I go into the Marines? Because there's a crossroads where that personality can go either way. It's the same wiring. It's the same wiring. And I was aware of that, obviously. But to hear this gentleman sort of say it and have the awareness of what could have been, right?

But that's what the pull is to the show and that deep sense of camaraderie and that deep sense of I'm putting my life in my brother's hands and we ride or die and all that stuff is those credos are very much part of both worlds, you know? But it is the, it's always the irony

of you know I look at ads for they don't every once in a while Harley will do a television promote and it's all about freedom and blah blah and and and that's the association I think you know easy rider and right but it's it's why most dudes and I say dudes because I don't know any women in in outlaw clubs I mean there are I just don't know them that, you know, they won't, they don't make it through the prospect process. You know what I mean? They'll be in it a few months and they'll start to see it and they'll go, you know,

either they bow out or, you know, they're asked to step away. Really? Oh, yeah, yeah. Like what makes them not like? Well, just realizing the commitment. Oh. Do you know what I mean? Realizing what it means.

And not even, I don't, I'm not even talking about like the darkness. of it as much as, oh, this is like, you know. My life. Yeah. Right. You know, it's like I'm making a commitment here. You know, I had a friend who ultimately patched into a club in Northern California, but he first tried to patch into that club in Amsterdam.

And they wouldn't let them, they never patched him over because they had a sense that he would always go back to the States. And they just, like, they just knew that ultimately he was here. He was with a woman. He was a great guy. He was committed. But that they knew he was eventually, he would leave. And they wanted members who were in it forever.

Right or die. Right or die. You know? Yeah. And so he had to go through the whole process. of being a prospect again in Northern Cali. Why did he want it so bad? What?

Why did he want it so bad? He felt he just felt like that was his destiny. Like that's what he wanted to be. That's who we wanted to be with. And so went to the main charter up in Oakland and went through the process, started as a hangar-around, met the guys, and then,

then ultimately a prospect and and at the end of that process you got patched in. Wow, that sounds so intimidating to me. Yeah. Like just like, you don't want to do it. You know, I want to do it. No, but it just sounds so scary. Well, yeah, it is. It's very, it's like joining.

It's like being in a gang. Yeah. Yeah. But there's a deep craving in us as humans to have that sort of connection to community in some way. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's like tailors.

as old as time, right? And a lot of times it's the dangerous ones that are the most that are the most what? What, like draw people? I think because of the strength that they pull that it has to be that connected to make it work has like a larger pull versus, you know, like in the program, we dabble in, there's no, you're there at your own free will. You're not really committed, right? So you make commitments to other people,

but you can come, you can go. There's no... Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's no buy-in other than your own sanity. Right.

Like, there's something about the danger, too, that I think... I would like to hear your thoughts on this because I've witnessed someone, my whole life, addicted to that thrill. And I'm curious, like, why aren't there meetings for that? Like, right.

There's A, A, there's N-A, there's A, there's A-Lanon, there's this, but the thrill, the thrill, the speed, the chase, those adrenaline, that's an addiction like anything else. Absolutely. No, I think, look, I think it's tribal. I think we crave that community. We need that camaraderie. We need that like-minded safety.

And my experience, and we dramatized it to a larger extent, obviously, in the show. But a character like Theor Rossi played, like Juice, was this broken kid who had nothing and didn't, you know, had a fucked up family. You know, and there was a boyishness about him in his need for family. And that's not uncommon. It's, it is that, you know, look, it's, it's the heartbreak and, but the odd humanity of, of street gangs is that most of it, these kids come from that life and it's dangerous, it's really fucked up. and you, A, you need some sort of pack, if you will, but also there is a sense of these people have my best interest. These people have my back. And it is really a desperate need for family.

It's why most interventions in that world are giving kids opportunity. like what they do at home boys, you give kids an opportunity to experience a different kind of camaraderie, a different pack, a different sense of belonging rather than the ones that puts your life and other lives at risk. But yeah, I think it's all that desperate need

and yes, I think the danger of it is that poll is a bigger commitment, if you will. So I think you have to come from some of that or experience some of that, whether that's trauma or not, to feel that pull. Do you know what I mean? I think it has to be part of what, scares you

that makes you chase it. What scares you? Yeah. Wow. How much time? I would say loss of

identity, I think scares me. I think I have a desperate need to be relevant. I have and by desperate I mean too much and to be respected I think it's ultimately

what perhaps becomes a drawback workwise is my desire to do something that's significant and and perhaps hold on to that maybe too tightly. And, but I think the loss of that, and some of it is loss of control, but some of it is,

for me, the only manufacturer, the only thing that manufactures dopamine for me anymore that's healthy is esteem. And without that, I'm, I'm. I'm lost. So I get that through the things that give me identity, which is an artist, which is a storyteller, which is a partner, which is a dad, which is a friend, you know, all that stuff.

So like losing those things, I think, is the most terrifying. Like, I'm not, did you mean, like, ghosts? No, that's exactly what I meant. No, that's what I meant. Could you imagine? I'm afraid of ghosts. You're like, I don't like tiny spiders. Yeah.

If that came out of you, I would die. No, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Yeah, that's the real fear. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Because that's in everyone, I mean, when you actually look at it. And the fact that you can admit it and articulate it.

Yeah, I mean, there's probably, there's so many others. But I think if I had to really lean into, um, the fear that probably is the most challenging would be that one. Yeah. I'm still learning. I mean, cool, though, should be able to admit. Yeah.

You know, accept that. Yeah. I think it's one of the things about getting old is that you, you, like, I can either look at it, like, even just the place I'm in work-wise, I can either look at it like, oh, fuck. I'm 64 and I'm fucking developing shit again. I can't believe I'm fucking doing this again. Or I can look at it through the lens of, oh wow, man, here I am at this point in my career and I'm still excited about kicking off something new and finding what else, you know, where am I going now? So I try to choose that lens as much as possible.

I mean, that's great. But does your brain wake up with the first lens? Not too much. I'm not a guy. Look, I don't wake up thinking that I'm going to conquer the world. But I also don't wake up thinking that the world is going to conquer me. I don't wake up in despair. Yeah.

You know, there aren't, it's not that I'm excited to get out of bed every day. But I'm not that I'm not that. And I was never really in that place. You know, somewhere in the middle. I mean, I definitely have times in my life where that's the case. But for the most part, no. That's great. Yeah.

Yeah. You just seem like you really show up in life and all the areas, you know. I try to. I try to. It's a, I tell you, I learned so much from my youngest one in that she, you know, she's definitely had her challenges in terms of mostly learning challenges. And then that, you know, impacts social-emotional stuff. And the way she deals with anxiety is she has to push through it, right?

And my older daughter was like that, too. Like the only way, like she went to Marlborough, which was really hard. And the only way she could relieve her anxiety is if all her homework was done and she thought it was not even perfect, but she had to get everything done. My son, on the other hand, dealt with his anxiety by never opening up his backpack. I relate to that. So I didn't know which way Esme was going to go. And she really was like Sarah. Like she has to get it all done.

And as a result of that, she's learned. amazing, you know, with the help of nannies and resources, she's learned how to, she's great at time management. She, you know, her grades since the pandemic have, you know, have exponentially improved and because she's figured out how to learn. And she's still that way. Like she's, you know, she's excited but terrified about going to college. So she did this two-week thing at LMU, where you go and live in a dorm for two weeks and go to classes and have the experience.

Like she has to push through it to get through the anxiety. She can't, like if she can't hide from it. And, you know, and she was, you know, she's, you know, she has a lot to say. So she's never a kid that was going to slip through the cracks. But, and, you know, and here, this is a kid that we has really struggled when she was younger academically. And so far, every school she's gotten into, or she's applied to, she's gotten into. And two of her top choices, she's gotten full academic scholarships.

Wow. Oh, that's amazing. That makes me want to cry. I know, it's amazing. That's amazing. You know, and it's, you know, and it's, you know, and, and, and, and, and, it's, you know, and, and, And it's all her, man. It's all her hard work.

And, but when I say I learned from her, like my instincts growing up was never to push through it. It was how do I get, how do I do, how do I avoid this? How do I avoid the feeling? How do I avoid the fear? How do I check out? And so I, I watch her. And, you know, she came back, when we came back, from after the fires they

I was already I was still in Idaho and Kate and Esme came out for another week until things got better here and when she came back she hadn't driven in like three weeks and she said dad I'm nervous about driving again so I have to drive three days to school this week like she just knew like she had to get she had to drive again like otherwise it was going to get worse That is so responsible. Isn't that wild?

Like that is never my thought is la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la we got this. Yeah, exactly. No way. Wow. Very impressive. So no and so I and we are very similar. So I, you know, the only, you know, it's it's rhetoric at this point, but truly, you know, the only way is through. So.

The only way to sue. But I will say that you said it's all her, but I have a kid with special needs. And last week, the week before, I had a teacher sat me down, and he's in kindergarten. She said, academically, he's the lowest I've ever seen. And I was like in your life, like in 30 years of teaching, the lowest you've ever seen. And we knew, like he has a chromosome syndrome. And she was like, yeah. And so obviously something came alive in me where I am like, okay, what are we going to do?

Right. What are we going to, how are we going to best support him? So your daughter getting to that place and the fact that she's going to go to college would not have happened without you guys. Oh, absolutely. Massive amount of support, I'm sure she was given. I believe that. You know, we were blessed that we had the, we could afford the resources to help her. But, you know, she was, she didn't know how to help herself.

And, you know, we didn't, and when they're young, you don't quite know what it is. And for her, it turned out to be mostly like ADHD related. You know, it's heartbreaking. And we found out, you know, she needed glasses. She couldn't see the board. Oh, my gosh. So, like, she doesn't know that, right? Yeah.

I'm going to. And we found she had, like, this very common thing. It's, I don't, I forget the name, but it's almost like oral dyslexia. Like, she couldn't, her ears weren't hooking up. Wow. So, like, she was a kid who you couldn't talk and have the radio on at the same time. And they identified that. And that's what would happen in the classroom.

Like the teacher would be talking and suddenly it's just white noise. Is it apraxia? It might be that because the fix was literally an app that she would sit and listen to for 20 minutes a day. And within two months, it was gone. Wow. Yeah. Because it just, it resinks, it basically resets how you hear. And so like that was part of the equation.

So it was all these things that we didn't know if it was all behavioral. We didn't know if it was, you know, if it was something more serious. And you do the best you can. You lean into the obvious. But it's hard when they don't know what's happening. And like I said, she was a kid who was not going to slip through the crash. So, you know, it was, it was rugged. And but from that experience, she real, when I said it's all her, is that she,

she was given the skills and she was given the tools. And she developed, like, her superpower is self-awareness, right? And, you know, I barely have. Right. Right. We all didn't. We're like, oh. So, and she's learned what she needs and how to advocate for herself and how to push through stuff.

That's so that's what I mean by. You know, she's the one that's taking the tools and run with it. You know, so. That's incredible. What a rad kid. Yeah. It's like genetics load the gun environment pulls the trigger. Absolutely.

It's definitely, it's nature and nurture. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you guys should be incredibly proud. That's that is we are. We are all of them are fantastic. Sarah's fantastic. You know, Jackson's going to loan me money apparently. Love me too. Yeah. That's my favorite tax exchange. But yeah, you guys are just, you know, amazing. Doing an amazing and every area of your lives. It's just very cool. Yeah, we're trying to make it matter. You know. There you go.

I hear you. That's all there is, right? It sounds like there's a lot happening and to look forward to you. We can't wait for it. And in the meantime, we can listen to Pi. You can listen to Pie. We're having a blast. We're having a blast.

I love Pie so much. Yeah, we're gearing up again. That's great. This week. No, next week we start the next round. I mean, going and doing a podcast and then actually getting pie. Come on. I mean, what else is there?

Do you know how many days I thought about the fact that I was so polite? when she was like, take the pie. And I didn't take it. And I didn't take the pie. And I thought about that pie for like three days after. Why? You felt like you should have taken it? Yeah, because she wanted it.

She wanted it. I was being too polite. I was like, no, no, we don't need it. We're good. She thought she did. We left. I was like, why didn't I take the pie? No, the pie is the best part.

Yeah. You learn so. Yeah. You learn a lot about people. You do. You do. So, but we get to eat pie. Yeah.

You have it all. And then we didn't. I mean, we ate a little bit, but then I thought about it. I forget what kind it was. It was key lime. Was it key lime pie? Yeah. You know, we do these, we do these slices of pie where we just do these quick things.

Maybe we'll just have you on and just have you eat pie. Let's do it. If you ever just need pie eaters, we are there. We just cut to the two of you eating pie. We're just saying. We're like, no questions. Please cut to us eating pie whenever you can. Anytime you want.

We're available. We're available. Pork and hands. Yeah. Well, this has been an absolute delay. Oh, thank you, ladies. It's a, no, it's a pleasure. I'm glad we get to say hi face to face.

Yeah, that's too. And you're closer to me now, so. I know. I was like, he's going to really appreciate this now. This is all for you. Yeah. And congratulations, this is fantastic. Thank you.

Thank you. You know. Very. We're really happy. And you guys are good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We're good. Every day. Different things. We won't talk about dating. I'll tell you when we cut. All right. All right. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you. Are you someone that like will tell someone if they have a booger? Yes, because I didn't once and they got so mad that I was like, I got a, I'm trying to be better about that. I was very proud of myself. I went to a coffee shop recently and the Brise's name tag was upside down. Oh. And I went, just so you know, your name tags upside down.

And she looked down and looked back up and went, you know, I've been here for like eight hours and you're the first person to say that. And I was like, oh, okay, that was cool. So it's hard if you don't know the person, though, because then it's just like, hey, we're going to get vulnerable quick. Right. But I'm always like toilet paper on the shoe. Like any of that stuff, I'll be like, hey. Yeah. Just so you know.

Yeah. The one thing that's a little iffy is the thing in the teeth. That's tough. Yeah. I think that's easier than a bugger. Both are a little vulnerable. The thing in the teeth is easier because you just go, you just go. Yeah.

And they go, oh, thank you so much. The booger is a little hard. I would almost go so far as to grab a tissue and just hand it to the person without even saying anything. And maybe just going like, you need this. I have a question. Why is booger like saying an offensive word somehow to a stranger? No, that was my question. It's like, why is the booger?

so vulnerable. Why is it so vulnerable? It's not like in an intimate place. It's not like, you know, like what about the booger is so vulnerable? It just shows up and it's an embarrassment. Yeah. Like, what is that though? But you have no control. And everybody has boogers and it's I will say some people are more prone to boogers than others. Like do you know people? I love that this is what we're talking about on Kurt's episode. Me too. The coolest dude ever and we're getting into it. But he knows. He knows. But there are some people. people that are more prone to booger. Like, they always kind of have one.

Do you not find that? I don't know. Am I one of those people? You're not one of those people. I tell you if you have one and you don't, like, how often do I say that? Not ever, because you don't. I don't think I'm really a booger person. No, because you have tiny little nostrils.

My nostrils. I think I kind of am and I have, I try to keep tissues around me for that reason. And then I do the like, I, I, I love the one-click iPhone, like camera, quick check, looking good. Okay. How often do you do that? Every five minutes. Every five seconds.

Yeah. I don't know. Probably once. Like if someone's walking in, maybe, not every single time. But I would say once or twice a day, I'm doing a quick check. Okay. To make sure I'm not booked up. All right.

Yeah. It's interesting. Very. Really interesting. Yeah, I'm trying to think of like an example of someone. I feel like I don't see. Maybe it's because I haven't been able to see. I'm a lot lower than most people.

So I see noses easier. Oh, that's true. Yeah. And I'm not super tall, but I'm 510 and I do think like. He just wanted to get that out there. He just want everyone to know. He would reflex. He's 510.

But I think I'm at nose height for some people. No, I feel nose conscious. Yeah, me too. So I need like a visor for my nostrils or something. I need some sort of setup. Are you feeling, you're not feeling like you have stuff itching your nose now? No. I mean, just talking about it makes me.

What about it? Like, sometimes if Jeff eats, like he'll get a little something on his facial hair. I do too, yeah. And I say it. Of course. I say it every time. And he's like, I'm mid bite. Like I'm going to get to it.

Right. You don't need to. Well, we had a meeting, and it was someone we met for the first time. And I told him when he had, like, mayonnaise or something on his hands. And I was like, I don't want you to get that on your clothes. I just want you to know you need to wipe your hand. Practical. Right.

You did. You said, you've got mayonnaise on your hand. It's like, you might want to get that. What was his reaction? Was he cool with it or was it like, okay? He was like, I'm saving that for later. Yeah, he, like, made a joke. Yeah, that was just good.

Yeah, you always need someone that can, like, make a joke. Yeah, my wife will kind of call out, like, how. How do you have so much peanut butter on your face. So I appreciate it. Just peanut butter specifically. Yeah, it's always peanut butter. So I'm very pro like a quick. There's a mirror right here.

You know what's funny with where I'm seated in the studio? I'm right next to a mirror on the other side of the door. And so throughout the day, I will see people do the nose check. Yeah. I saw a guy yesterday doing like an arm check, like checking out his arm. Oh, sick. And I was like, he's checking out his arm. I felt so.

Gun show. Yeah. Seeing how he looked in a shirt and I felt like I was in a bathroom, I wasn't, I was so uncomfortable. I was trying to like look the complete opposite direction. Oh my God. That's another vulnerability. Yeah.

Looking in the mirror. Yeah. Like even if you pass a car and you like want to get a glimpse of yourself, you don't want people to see you getting a glimpse of yourself. Yeah. You know, like it's a vulnerable. Yeah. Why?

Why? Who cares? There are people that don't give a fuck that just do it. You know what I mean? Yes. And like there's people like us who are like, don't look like. I got to like side glance at my. Or like acting like you did something on purpose.

Like the Ellen trip where she trips and keeps running. Like when you have to pretend like it's intentional. Yeah. To roll with it. Yeah. I'm more vulnerable taking a selfie than I am like looking in a public mirror. Interesting. Yeah.

I don't know why like. So I'm so. Could you try it for us? right now. Like take a selfie. Should I have one with you guys in the background? No. I mean, you can.

Yeah, us in the background. But I want it to be like really you in a selfie. Yeah, a selfie. I do the thing. I don't know if a lot of guys do this, but I do a lot of like knuckles under the chin. It feels like a very intentional pose. So you'll see that a lot in pictures with me.

Yeah. That your knuckles are always under your chin. That's like a, it's the Kevin. It's the Kevin. It's the Kevin. I hate it It's oh god

I feel naked I don't think Listen I'm gonna say this is a public service announcement That's disgusting I'll send it to Kayo Like it's a turnoff Like to me it's an ick What

A comfortable A guy that's comfortable with selfies Oh yeah that's like a turn off Like a guy that's like Do guys have icks as much as girls have icks No Yeah I don't think so I don't think so

I'm answering Gareth called me the lobotomy smile Like I haven't figured out smiling yet It looks like I have a like I don't have a brain Oh gosh I'm sorry last week I had to do third grade trivia And now I'm doing selfies Okay let's try

Yeah you like it Let's you see the smile That's a nice smile It's cute Kevin It's getting there I think it's nice It is nice My mom gives two sets of teeth

How do you feel about that A two sets of teeth smile? She shows bottom. Let me see your smile. She does this. I'm like, Mom, just try the top. Just like, you know, she's like. I had to practice because I got married in March and took so many photos with the photographer.

And so my wife was like, you have to practice your smile. And what was happening was like, I would open my mouth, but you couldn't see my teeth. And she was like, you just look like you're like taking a bite. Like what? Show us. you mean like oh but I'm not mad in an open my open mouth smile smile it looks like you're laughing let me see yours yeah but do it open mouthed I like it yeah yeah there's nothing wrong with that yeah that looks fine you were doing it right maybe she taught you well she did yeah yeah

she knows how to take a pressure show the teeth a little bit yeah yeah yeah have my chin down a little it's tough it's stressful did someone just look in the mirror I saw you glance up yep If someone went to the bathroom, didn't look in the mirror, but we made eye contact. We need to have, like, blinds. The eye contact. Mm-hmm. Not the eye contact. Oh, not the eye contact.

That's another thing. Eye contact? Yeah. I'm so glad. Let's hear about it. What do you mean? I don't know. I'm not a big eye contact person.

Me neither. Don't like it. It's hard. It's hard. If you're sitting across from someone, you do really well with you? Yeah. Well, yeah. I don't know.

I guess if I don't know. someone that well? Maybe. I hate the cheersing and you have to eye contact. That's just stupid. I don't do that. I don't like that. I hate that. I mean, I don't drink, but like anything. You would have lost your mind at the end of school at our school that we went to. They would do this thing called soul gazing where they would play a song for two minutes. Nope. You have to be completely silent. I'm out. And you have to go and look into someone's eyes for like a minute straight. And then switch to the next person and you just go around the room and you're just like taking each other in. Nobody did.

It's like nonverbal speed dating. It was. That's wild. But the weird thing is you then had this weird kind of closeness with people you would have never had where you're like, oh, I saw that person in a completely different way. Like I saw them. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah.

Still on into it. How do you feel about, I feel like. I feel like sometimes I can't tell if it's me being awkward with eye contact or if the person that I'm engaging with eye contact is weird with eye contact so then it gets dodgy. Yeah.

Right? The thing where I break really quickly is if I'm like trying to hold a thought in a conversation or say something smart or like find my thought, I will look like off to the side. Always. But then it just seems like I'm like ignoring the person. I got called out for it.

I was like I was interviewing someone on a show and I was trying to like frame the questions. But I was doing it the whole interview. So eventually someone was like, are you, where are you looking? Because I was just like staring at a wall for so much of it. And then I would like come back. I context stuff. I don't know what happened. I do that all the time.

To formulate a thought, I typically will look out. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's common. I do too. I always have to look away when I'm thinking. Yeah. Could you imagine just holding eye contact while you're thinking?

That's so awkward. People are good at it though. Right? Yeah. Like this, where you're like forming a thought. You're just like locked in. It's like, okay, no. There's some people that are so intense.

Yes. Who did you just think of? Just in general, there's been people where you're like, okay, you're hijacking. And you're like, this is, I'm so. I'm thinking of someone. You are? Yes. Is it someone that I know very well?

Yes. Yes. It is. It is. I'm not going to say who it is. No, I know. We were like, did they just put a spell on me? The intense eye contactor.

Yeah. That's a character. That's a type. It is. Not for me. That's a good character. It's a good character. Like they won't let you out.

Like you look over and they're like, they just fall. They find you no matter where you go. Yeah, that's good. That is part of it. And then the other part of it for me is, and it's different with a podcast, but when people get too deep into a conversation too quick, like if I don't know the person, you would think you'd like it,

but sometimes I was like, hey, man, we just met. We don't have to get, I need like, I need two days of like, what kind of snacks do you like before we can start talking about, like, divorce or something? Oh, my God. We just talked about this at a party, especially at a party. Yes. Like, I'm all about going super deep, super fast down into it. That's why I like podcasts because I'm like, I don't really care about much else.

I do care about your snacks, big time, big time. But if I'm at a party and there's like bunches of people around, like, you don't want to corner someone and be like, hey, let me tell you about the most depressing thing on earth. Because you can't actually concentrate and give them that attention. You can't. And here's another thing. Like talking at a party and someone goes in on something. But there's somebody at the party that doesn't really know anyone really well. And they're sitting right there.

But this person is trying to really get into it. And all I can focus on is this other person that has no one to talk to. Who's totally out of it. And that's why you can't do that at part of it. That's why you can't do that at parties. You got to keep it light. You got to keep it light. There's someone sitting there that doesn't know anyone and you got to be like what kind of snacks.

You got to bring them into the conversation. Yeah. Snacks is always a good go-to. It's a good one. And I also think. Jam. The context of like, I feel like you can tell the person really quickly of like they're getting deep for them, not because they want to have a good conversation with me. Right.

Like they just want to brag about how that they can talk. about get very vulnerable very quickly versus someone yes versus someone who's like I want to have a great conversation with you right right we call it trauma flexing yes trauma flexing yeah trauma flexing yeah it's a one-upper it is a one-upper and it's like I can't handle one-upper's no in any context no trauma one-upping yeah any one-upping uh Adam divine on workaholics called it story battle where like Someone would tell a story and then he would tell a story like on workaholics. And then his character would go, story battle, I just won. That was a way better story than yours.

And I see people do that sometimes where they're like trying to one up a story where it's like, how did this become a competition? Yeah. Right. There's a difference between relating and one-uping. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent.

Relating. But do you ever do that? And then you think about it like, oh, did I just make this all about me? but you're just like relating. Yeah. Which is normal. Mm-hmm. But you're not one-offing.

No, there's a difference between relating and bringing someone into your experience and sharing theirs. Right. And here's the difference. There's a difference between waiting for them to hear what you have to say versus sharing back and forth. Yes. Right. Right. Right. 100%.

And you do notice that a lot when you go to social gatherings. Yeah. You learn a lot. You learn so much in a social gathering about people. And this is something I was thinking about earlier. You learned so much going out to dinner. Oh, do tell. With people.

How do they treat the server? Oh, yeah. How do they conduct themselves? Speaking of X, I went and got coffee with a friend over a year ago, and I still think about it. And the way he said, I was like, can I please have an almond milk latte? Bruce said, no problem. Then he walked up and went, give me a cold brew.

And I was like, give me a. Give me a. What? Nothing. I was like, oh, God. And it was pretty nasty. Because he said, give me a.

No, I'm not down. Nope, that's it. That friendship's over. It was bizarre. Because think you're your kid. Like, if my kid said that, I would be like, absolutely not. That's not how you speak to people.

Crazy. No. No. Yeah. Like put your cart back. Do you put your shopping cart back? I do. It depends.

I'll put it in. the little swoopy thing where you put it in the thing, I won't walk it all the way back to the store. No. Putting it back, it also counts if you put it where they go. I had a really hard time with that, though, for a minute when I had, when my kids were babies. So you would leave it at your parking spot?

Because I'd be terrified to leave my babies in the car alone to go put it back in the thing. And so I'd be super conflicted. And sometimes I would just. leave it at the spot. But now that my kids are old enough, I put it back in the thing. Do you put it back?

Yes, I bought a bathroom vent at Home Depot this week, and I watched the guy just launch his cart into the parking lot, like into the abyss. He put his stuff in his car. He was too far where I wanted to like shout and be like, what was that? And he was just like,

I'm done and just launched it and then got in his car. But you could never. No, it was wild. Because you could never bring it up because you never know how people are going to react. Oh, yeah. I don't, I barely. honk it. I only honk if it's an emergency. I'm not a honk. I will wait 10 minutes at that fucking green light. Yeah, me too. If the person in front of me isn't moving before I honk. How do you

feel about do you help bag your own groceries? Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, if someone's like doing it and like just and they have a method and they're just in it and I don't want to interfere. Yep. Like I don't want to fuck with their system. Yeah. Yeah, if there's no bagger, I'll hop in. Of course. If someone's doing it, I don't want to be like, and I'm here too. And I'm here too. No, my dad used to do it when I was a kid and it would embarrass me.

That he would bag? Yeah, he'd always do it. Well, he'd always be like, I got this. Oh, like, and tell the bagger not to bag it. He would just jump in and do it because I think he took a lot of pride that when he was a teenager, he was a grocery bagger. So he had like... There's a system to it. I know, and he would do it their way, like, really, like, systematically.

But as a kid, I didn't, I was embarrassed. And it's one of those things I feel really bad about now. I can't. I saw someone brag about the way they put stuff on the conveyor belt. And it was such a non-bragg. Oh, the conveyor belt, what? It was such a non-brac to me. It took everything to me not to be like, that's just, I think, common sense.

She said, you know, I do this kind of unusual thing where I put all the frozen things together. And then I put all the breads and all the soft things and the chips together. And then I put all the kind of harder things together too. So I have this kind of crazy hack. And I was like, I think everyone just does that. Yeah. I put all the vegetables and fruit together. Yeah.

All the frozen stuff together. Wait. On the conveyor. Oh, like before you check out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. Yeah. But was acting as if like, guys, I have a new hack at Ralph's.

That's hilarious. Right. I was like, I think everyone does that. Yeah. You got to try to keep the cold stuff. it together. Yeah. Yeah, because then if you're running in and you can't, don't have time to put everything away,

then the cold stuff goes in and the rest sits on the floor. Yeah. bags for days. These are important conversations. You know, we've covered such important topics, you guys. I feel better and I feel ready to go about my day. You do? Yeah.

Are you done with us? Yeah, we're done. Oh. Look at that. We've covered it all. Kurt, and we had Kurt, and Kurt stands alone. The selfie is actually not that bad. You're going to post it?

Is it good? Yeah, Caitlin will post it, our social media friend. Great, we love her. She's the best. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.

Bye. That was a HeadGum podcast.