Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - How to Break Up with Your Friends with Erin Falconer

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Rachel and Olivia sit down with author Erin Falconer to chat about the many different complexities of female friendships and her book, How to Break Up with Your Friends: Finding Meaning, Connection, and Boundaries in Modern Friendship.Watch this episode on YouTube!Like the show? Rate Broad Ideas 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts and SpotifyThis is a Headgum podcast. Follow Headgum on Twitter, Instagram, and Tiktok. Advertise on Hollywood Handbook via Gumball.fm If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started: https://learn.nocd.com/broadideasSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a Headgum podcast. Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yello, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room,

and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hax podcast, on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. What? Our conversation with Aaron Faulkner. Oh, roll it, please. And just make it stop.

Aaron, thanks so much for coming on. Of course. Thanks for thinking of me. Yeah. Yeah, we're so excited to talk to you about our favorite subject. Rachel? Crypto. Yeah.

That's our favorite subject. Crypto. Yay, we finally got someone that will talk to us about crypto. Well, this is my favorite thing. So Olivia moved back to the Valley in L.A. And she has made so many friends through her kids' school. Now, her kids, her older one was in third grade. You would think wouldn't she have already had like a community of friends before this?

But anyways, lucky for all of us. It happened once she moved to where she's at now. And we have been introduced to so many amazing people, including Aaron, who is with us today, who wrote an amazing book that immediately strikes up so many different topics of conversation. And so that's why we wanted to have her on to talk about it. So, Erin, maybe you could introduce yourself and your book. Sure. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. I'm a very big fan of the pod.

I am a writer, psychotherapist, and screenwriter. And my latest book is called How to Break Up with Your Friends, finding, meaning, connection, and boundaries in modern friendship. And while there are 10 chapters in the book, only one chapter is actually on how to actually break up with a friend. The nine other chapters are where I think we're leaving a lot on the table with friendship. and we could get a lot more out of them if we're more intentional, especially, and this is specific to female friendships, of course, which are very different than male friendships.

Yeah. They sure are. One of the things that you say that I love is like, we have therapy for couples therapy. We have individual therapy, but one of the conversations we've had with each other is what about having someone help navigate? a friendship which these are the people that were going through everything with. Like Rachel and I have been through more by each other's side than any, you can't get that in a partner, right?

Right. So it's, they knew you when you had side bangs and overplucked eyebrows and, you know, when you were making poor decisions to good decisions to all the decisions in between. So I would love for you to just kind of give us a. landscape on what friendship means to you, what female friendship means, what you think is being left off the table, and what you think needs to be added to the table. That was a lot I just asked of you. A multi-parter. But so, so yeah, I just want to jump quickly on what you said at the beginning. And one of the reasons of why I wrote this book is I was having a kind of ongoing

person, friend, friendship problem that I didn't quite clock as being a problem. And I think that that's oftentimes where we find ourselves in these longer relationships. It's not, it is so rarely a big, like, she slept with my boyfriend or, you know, she, she got my promotion, you know, she got the promotion I want. It's very rarely that. It's over time, a cumulative buildup of things that have gone unsaid or unnoticed, right? Because we don't take the time to analyze these relationships in the way we do, for example, romantic or family relationships. And so when I was going through this thing with a very longstanding friend of mine who outwardly I would call, you know, one of my absolute best friends, I was left in this one particular circumstance where I was left waiting

for her. And I was very, getting very, very angry. And when I started to look at, you know, know, just her being late, my reaction to her to her being late felt out of proportion. And so I questioned it for the first time. Like, wow, you are really mad about this, but she's just late. What's the, you know, what's the big thing? And so for the first time ever, I started to really do an audit of the history of our relationship. And when I did that, I realized, wow, we're actually not as close.

And we haven't been for a while as I, you know, just my default. setting of like, this is my best friend. And so the epiphany out of that was like, wow, I can't believe this is the first time I'm doing this, like looking with a critical or, you know, a more nuanced look at this type of relationship. And I've never done it before and I thought that was really strange. And being a therapist, I was like, why is this? And then to your point, I started to realize, well, because there is language around talking about talking about about conflict, advocating for yourself in all of these other types of relationships. And I think there's a direct correlation to that because there's, as you said, individual therapy,

couples therapy, family therapy, but friendship, which I think are honestly at times the most important, you know, if you look from a timeline perspective. And there's nothing. So a lot of this stuff goes on said, push down, or just not noticed at all, because we just don't have those muscles built. And so that was kind of the idea behind the book is let's create something that gives language to all of these different scenarios. So you don't feel like extra. It doesn't feel like out of the blue. It feels like you're really advocating for the relationship in yourself. And I think in that way, we're going to get a lot more out of these relationships that are already so important. And they say more than anything, starting with Aristotle, that friendships are a mirror

to yourself. And so the more dynamic and the more deep, the friendship relationships in your lives are, the more you grow as a person, the more you exponentially grow. So if only for this very selfish reason, if you are on any sort of self-growth, you know,

journey, they're really, really important relationships and help you discover so much more about yourself. So, yeah, that's, I mean, that's not the reason of why I think female friendships are important, but it is one of the reasons.

Yeah. It's just so interesting just like hearing all of it because we all have so many different relationships with our friends. And like I can pinpoint. It was funny. I was having a conversation with my daughter last night. And I was like, who do you feel like you're closest to? You know, like out of her friends. And the word closest just like kind of could then she turned it on me.

And she's like, well, mommy, who do you feel closest to? And I was like, and I was having the hardest time. answering the question, you know, because I'm like, well, I'm closest to Olivia, you know, but then when I try to explain this other friend who's more like a sister, like family, she's like, well, wouldn't you be closer to her? And I'm like, no, but it's, it's different. It's not the same thing. But anyway, it was just like, her and I just said dinner last night talking about all this. But like, because relationships are so different and you do need tools to kind of navigate them. Yeah. It's just so interesting that.

you know, you have all the background that you do have when it comes to multiple subjects, but then to actually focus on friendships, which I think are super complex. Yeah, very, very, it's a very complex thing. And, you know, there are so many, because we're sharing so much with our good friends, you know, and I think that is different, one of the things that's different between female friendships and male friendships. It's not that they can't be deep, but it's nothing, you know, the portfolio of subjects is much more limited. In a female friendship, it's like, it's soup to nuts. If you're really close with somebody, you're talking about everything. And all of, you know, because that's so broad, there's all the more opportunities to, like,

have little fissures and fractures. And what we do so often, I can't tell you how many times I've heard this in, you know, when I'm seeing a client who's upset about a friend. And then I said, well, why don't you say something? Oh, no, then it'll just become a thing. And I'm like, but we got to get on the other side of that because really what you're, it doesn't have to be a big thing. It just, if we can learn that this is just communicating. And it's not like I'm throwing down the gauntlet with you.

I just want to say like, hey, like, you know, could you be a little more on time? Or is there something going on in your life? I feel like you keep constantly are running late. It's like it doesn't have to be bigger than that, you know, unless it's, in general, it doesn't have to be bigger than that. But yet there's, we're constantly talking ourselves out of saying anything because it's like, I'll just get over it.

It's not that big a deal. It's da-da-da-da. And it's like, okay, but that's at the detriment of the relationship and the strength of the relationship. I have a question on that. So I do think when it comes to a partner, it's really, at least for me, it's really easy to say those things. You know, I'll be like, you did this, that and the other.

and that was annoying and whatever. And it's like, yeah, it was, okay, what's for dinner? Right? There's not that, well, if I say this to him, it's going to be a thing. Like, it's different. But I will say and help me with this, sometimes I feel like it's experiential. And I do think that when given feedback in certain ways, right? Like there are certain things that Rachel and I have done enough with to know,

it's just communication. Neither of us are going to hold on to it. We're not going to, it's not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's not going to be drama, right? And that's experiential because enough evidence has shown like, okay, I can communicate this to her. She's going to be able to receive it. Whatever stickiness will get through.

We'll be done by the end of the call and we'll be like, what's for lunch? Versus, there are other friends and other people where if you do deliver a similar type communication, it's connected to a bigger drama or bigger wounds or their communication might not be reflective of what you're used to. And so what advice do you have in those situations when it's like you can't, you obviously you can't control their reaction, right? That's not our job to control their reaction. But what do you do in those situations? where the truth of the matter, it might be a thing. Well, it might be a thing.

So just to clarify, it might be a thing because there's more going on and this is just just your scratching the surface or it might be a thing because they, that's, that's their default setting or that's the way they're prone to react, which, like, which one? I think, Rachel, are you tracking with me? all of this? Yeah. Like, don't you agree? Like, there's certain times, like, think of one friend, and you're like, if I said this to her, she's going to get offended or she's going to get this or that, right? And so, a lot of times I do think it's based on their material. Yeah, right. It is. Right. So, okay, so you're saying, okay, right, right, right. So first of all, I just want to say this,

the way you described your relationship with Rachel is kind of the gold standard. And that's, that's exactly, you know, I think it's worth calling that out because what you guys have both decided is that the strength of the relationship can handle whatever you guys are bringing. Again, right? So it's less about the other person and the other person. You understand there's a strength of relationship there can handle just about anything, as long as you guys are being honest and respectful, right? So that's where we want to get to, right? And it's less about like, oh, she's reactive or I'm da-da-da-da. It's like, do I think fundamentally that this relationship can hold what I need to say or do? If the answer's no, then there might be some work to do there,

right? If the answer is yes, then that feels like a very good and healthy relationship. But to take it to your point about, let's say you have one friend that is just kind of trigger-happy or defensive, and most times that really is about the other person's material, like they haven't work through some, you know, and that pertains to every one of the probably relationships in their life, right? If you've got stuff that you haven't worked through, it kind of bleeds into all of your relationships. So then what you need to decide is, does, as long as you have the audit part of it, like, I'm aware that this is a dynamic in this relationship, and I've decided, I'm still going to choose it, but great. And that's, you know, then that's probably the best you can hope for if you're

in a relationship with somebody who hasn't worked out some of their relationship stuff, you know, historical, you know, relationship stuff. The problem is when we're not bringing it top of mind and we're kind of going through the motions and just like, okay, I guess this is what this is. You know what? Or not even getting to that level of consciousness around it. And there's just kind of a low-lying pervasive irritation about the other person. And I always say there's like a phone litmus test. Like, I can't remember if I've said this to you guys before, but it really rings true. It's like, if you're in the middle of the day and you're busy and you see somebody your phone rings and you see a name on the call display, do you go, ugh? Or do you dive to take the call,

right? And if you're, then for me, there's something there. There's a pervasive underlying irritation, and it might be worth going, hey, what's that about? Because generally speaking, you don't want to have that reaction when you see somebody's name on your call display. You don't have to be dying of joy that they're calling. You just don't want like that, oh, right? So that would be an indication to me there that maybe there is some stuff that's like, again, like behind the scenes, irritating you, and it might be worth taking a look. You take a look and you go, you know what? I figured that that's just what this person, that's where this person is at. Probably nothing I can do about it. That's on them. But I'm going to, but net net, I'm still feeling good about this relationship. And I'm going to continue to choose it until I check in, you know, whenever. And then if I might make a different choice that I'll let, you know, down the road. But right now, this is just something.

I'm factoring into what this is and I'm fine with it. So again, it's just the awareness more than anything there is to do about it. And I think that's one of the big kind of takeaways for me with the book. And that's why instead of calling it friendship therapy, which is the alt title, I called it how to break up with your friends because I thought this idea within relationships is so taboo, right? Like you're going to break up with a friend like, whoa, what kind of person are you, you know, like say it and plan it out. And for me, it's not necessarily about going through your contact list with machete. In fact, it's not. But it is putting that option on the table, knowing it's there. Like, this is only, I can get out of this if I want to. I'm not locked in here

because I've become friends, just like with a romantic relationship. I'm going to continue to choose this relationship as long as like I want to work on it and the other person's working on and we're happy or it's working. But I also understand that there's an option that if it's not, I'm okay. I'm not a bad person because I want to get out of it. And so I think that's just putting that in the mix, alleviate some of the, like, I'm locked in, and you have a little more freedom to move and assess and then make decisions and choices.

And I think that's more what it's about, is knowing that it's okay to have that on the table. It's so interesting, just that simple thing of, like, seeing someone's name on the phone pop up. Because, like, it tells so much. So much. You have a visceral reaction. Yeah, you have a, like, there's no thought.

You're not in your head. It's just like a, ugh. And that is a good piece of information to have. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I hate talking on the phone, so anytime my phone rings, I'm like, oh, fuck. But, no, but it's true. If I see Olivia's name, like, no matter what, I'll always answer, like, no matter what you're doing, you know? Right.

Because it's not even a thing. Right. It is so interesting because, like, I have a particular friend where, after I, I leave or after I talk or after an exchange, I always have to vent about the experience. You know? And it's like, again, good information. Good information. But then we also get into it ourselves and talk about all the qualms, all the things or whatever. Yeah. So it is complicated. But it's not like, but it's also not a friendship that I think has to end or, you know, it's just like something to be aware of and how to navigate it. Yeah, I think. And then it's like, again, the awareness piece is the

most important piece. Like when I was sitting in that restaurant waiting for my friend, like I had zero awareness on this relationship. Like, and that was shocking to me. You know, I spent my whole life, you know, basically talking to people about relationships. And it's like I had no visibility really on this relationship. And I was like, how is that possible? And so I get, so that's the important thing is like the ability to just like check in with yourself and say okay is this working what how where are we how are we is this good like and you doesn't have to be much longer than that if you things feel largely okay again if there feels like a low lying irritation like if you're talking about this venting like as long as you're aware of it you're like yeah okay I do that and that's kind of part of the fabric of

this relationship and I'm okay with it for now then great that your work there is done you know it's just if you're like feeling stressed and then getting on five phone calls and talking shit and and then, you know, and then this becomes this other entity, it's like, well, I don't know, maybe that isn't working, you know? So it just, but again, it's the taking the time to take a look at it that I think is important. I would love to know your thoughts. That was a good point you differentiated was the venting versus talking shit. How much of that do you think is healthy and how much, what is the crossing the line when it comes to those two things? Because I love that you made that point because I do think sometimes a healthy venting session,

most important part is the person on the other end can hold that space. And they're not like, oh, yeah, she's a fucking piece of it. You know what I mean? Like they don't go dirty and try and get you more turned up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. which can actually hold. Yeah. They can actually hold a venting session and allow you to feel your feelings,

move through it and carry on. What are the differences in talking shit and venting? Well, I do think venting is important, to be honest with you. Look, you've got to, like we're venting constantly about our romantic partners. You know what I mean? True. You know, so, or at least I am. Maybe I just uttered myself.

But I feel like in general, people are like, vending. I think that's part of human nature and I think that's just part of processing the experience. And again, some of that is just inherent in certain relationships where you're going to feel a little more, I don't know, unsettled or irritated or whatever. And so I do think venting is an important part of relationships. I'm not against it at all. But I guess where it starts to take on a life of its own, in other words, like kind of to your point, like if you're talking to somebody and then they're really feeding in on it and then it starts to become the self-fulfilling prophecy and that other person is not even in the room right like it's like starts to become this like secondary persona right like

that's just the way she is right and then that starts to overtake your view of it starts to inform your view on this person and I think ultimately makes it worse and I don't think it's fair especially if it's multiple people you're venting to um if it starts if you're like is this starting to take on a life of its own, then that's when it needs to, I think, change direction. You need to check yourself and see, maybe I'm more irritated than I really think I am in this relationship,

or maybe I'm taking this too far. It's not fair. But I guess I would say the thing is, if it starts to feel like it's taking on a life of its own, it's too much. That's not venting. That's now creating whole other pockets of energy directed indirectly towards this person,

and that's not good. So I think also if there's multiple people that you're talking to at once, again, it's kind of like that group thing, that the idea then becomes bigger than what's being said. So that would again be like something where this is like starting to take on a life of its own. And that's not where you want to be. That's something that needs to kind of be worked out. Because venting can also feel so good that you over lean into it.

Right? Like it feels like, so it's just kind of keeping a check on yourself. But I don't think, you know, light venting, I mean, is a big problem. I just one thing I want to say, like when you were first saying, like, that you outed yourself, that you vent about your romantic partner. Here's the opposite. The people that don't ever, you have to, like, question, like, what's really going on? You know, the friend that's always like, it's wonderful. Wonderful.

We're wonderful. like toxic positivity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Like, I don't believe it. Yeah, it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel authentic. And probably because it's not. It can't be. It can't be.

Well, it either isn't, yeah, it can't be true. And then it's like that person obviously is more concerned with like the image, doesn't want to be at all vulnerable, you know, which, you know, is tough to have like close friendships with somebody that doesn't want to be at all vulnerable. I mean, I'm really sitting around crying. bawling with my girlfriend. Some of my friends do do that. That's not my, the way I'm built.

But I do have, you do have to have some level of vulnerability. So if it's like everything's perfect all the time, we know that's not true. Can't be. Human nature is human nature. The world is the world. Right. So then it's like, well, I guess that person is trying to prove something or doesn't feel, you know, feels nervous to like have that image of herself cracked, you know?

Right. Right. Yeah, I mean, something to definitely note, at least to yourself. Yeah. And I have another question. Like, just about the friendship thing, like, here's something that's tough to navigate. What if it's, maybe it's a newer friendship, whatever, but the kids are really close. Yeah.

So, like, you've become friends with the parents, the mom, whatever, but you're not aligned and whatever. like, you know, that's like a really complicated thing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So what I got to. Yeah, and the flip, and the flip is true, if you are really, really good friends with somebody and then you have kids and those kids don't get along. So if you're like trying to also make, you're like, I've been in that situation where it's like, wow.

Yeah, and it's like, you're trying to make it work for the kid. You're getting along so well, you know, with your friend. And then it's just like, and it's, you, nothing is a bigger social experiment than having kids, you know. right you're like it's just unbelievable what comes out of you um so so yeah i mean if you're so you're saying if your kids are friends but you're not really viving with the other mom yeah or like you think you do and then time goes on but the kids are really close but you're like this isn't for me yeah yeah it's tough when you have other people in the mix even like you know i have a couple of clients that

they've got like they're friends in groups you know they've got multiple group chats going on they when they hang out they hang out with like five or six people like there's not a lot of solo thing and I just say like one on one is tough enough when you start having the dynamic of other

people in the mix it's just it's just infinitely more complex so when you're I think that's why it's important when there are multiple people like let's say the the mom of the mom friend that the kids are friends it's especially with mom friends I think we want to dive in because it's such a specific group

you know that really feels like you feel seen and heard and they have a probably similar circumstance so it's like you don't need to translate anything they get it so we kind of jump in but I think like anything it is kind of important to like set that up with a little a slower trajectory getting into it because again like just because they're a mom you don't like you don't really know who they are. And so it is kind of tricky to like then slow that role, you know, especially if the kids are like, we want to play. And then you're like, I'll just drop you off or just drop them off. And as opposed to hanging out, it's like tricky. Right. But that's less of a situation where you're going to sit down and like say let's talk. Like let's break. Right. Right. Because you

don't need to. You don't need to. That wouldn't apply. And the opportunity cost is not good. you know like there's you could risk um you know putting a strain or ending the friendship of the kids you know if it if it doesn't go well with the mom so yeah you kind of just need to gently pull back if that's something unless you're like their values are crazy and i don't want them around my kid then that's a whole other thing but i don't think that's what you're saying right no yeah if it's just like oh this isn't the personality fit i thought it was um yeah you kind of have to delicately, you know, just not back out because you can't do it, but like delicately, you know. Like Homer and the hedge.

Like I just like to always use that image. Yeah. Exactly. But when you bring up values, that makes me very curious what your thoughts are in having friendships with people whose values are wildly different than yours. Even it's like, you know, I guess that. That's a question. And then also, is it healthy?

And I think that you touched on this a little bit, that like the most important part is kind of the audit of the awareness. But your thoughts on compartmentalizing. Like, yes, I know this person and I don't align in this way, but I still love them very deeply and for all these other reasons, right? What are your thoughts when you're, actual values are very different. Well, that's tricky.

I think people can be very different and that I actually encourage that. I think like if you look at your starting lineup of friends and everybody looks like a, you know, their story is a clone of one another. I think that's not where you want to be. Again, the more diverse, you know, the people you're hanging out with, bringing it back to that kind of Aristotle thing is the more diverse and the things that you can pull out of yourself are. So like, I think that's the richest experience.

But when we talk about, and what I mean by that is like, if all of your friends are between, you know, 40 and 44 or 30 and 34 might be, you know, might want to open up the aperture a little and say what would it be like if like I were friends with like a 60 year old who I'm in a class with? You know, it doesn't mean you have to do every single thing with them. But like what would it be like to be with a friend that has a totally different cultural, you know, you know, upbringing. You know, these are all things that you kind of want to look at, and they're great to aspire to, and you don't really have to do anything about it except just kind of put it out there to yourself. But when I hear you talk about actual values being different, like real things that are important to you, you don't want like polar opposite values. That's very, very hard to, we already kind of have to swallow a lot of that within family. You know what I mean? Like if

Oh, totally. Right. Like, and that's where I think your hands are a little more tied. But I mean, you wouldn't want to have too many different shared values, right? Like, you know, I guess if it's like, if we're talking about, like, let's say somebody has a different political belief, is that maybe what you're talking about? Yeah, I think you could maybe table like something, one thing like that, right? If you're both not really talking about it, I think it's kind of hard if some, if the other person is constantly surfacing content that feels like, you know, like, that's not really, you know, where I'm at. I guess if you're both compartmentalizing kind of and making that choice that it's okay,

then I think that's fine. But like if there are too many difference in values, that begs the question, what, why do you, like, why do you want to spend a lot of time with somebody that has a lot of different values than you? I guess one thing, that's something you can compartmentalize, but yeah, would that be more like the circumstance like somebody you've grown up with and then they've kind of changed along the way or you've changed along the way and like they've kind of

accumulated, you know, they're in a different, very different place kind of thing, but you still have that shared history. Yeah, I see that and I see just even like little things that maybe learnings along the way that have become core values of like, let's say for instance, you could use the example of the difference between venting or shit talking, right? And say you have a friend that you're like, I love this person so much, they're funny, they're charismatic, they're deep, they're all the things. But every time I'm with them, they want to talk shit about other people. And then I'm left feeling icky or something.

So that's a value, right? Where you're allowed to vent all day long. We can vent. We can share in these ways. But we're not going to, like, put other people down to feel better. or politically. Sometimes it's tough when you're like really, you know, steeped. And that actually doesn't even bother me that much, to be honest.

Yeah. Because I do feel very capable of compartmentalizing. I did have a breakup early on in that, like, COVID days. And that was hard. It was someone I really loved, and I still love. I still love her. And I still think of her. And I still send her well.

wishes. And in the beginning, it was just tense and tight. And we did have a breakup. But even to this day, I'm like, I can sit there and with full honesty feel I love and miss this person, even though we don't feel and think the same. Right. And would you do that again? Have the breakup? Yeah. Do you feel upset that you've that you made that choice? I wouldn't have the breakup with her. Okay. What do you mean? What do I mean? You, so who would you have broken up with?

Rachel. No, I'm just kidding. What I mean is like looking back, I think that there was a lot of big feelings and a lot of fear at a time where I think we were all under a lot of fear. And so that was hitting on some really deep core wounds. but I think the person that that happened with, the grand total of who she was and how I love her, I wouldn't break up with her again. Okay.

But. Haven't you reached out since? Yeah. Yeah. Has she responded? She responded so lovingly. Oh, okay. Good.

Yeah, we were both like, okay, I love you, you know. And it's like we don't have that friendship anymore. But sometimes, you know, again, like I think that it feels like you did what was right for you at the time, given the circumstances and the facts and where we were, you know, where you were at that time. And I think the ability to still feel warmth, but not be maybe inundated with the conflict of the different values, right? It seems like that feels like you landed where you probably needed to land. Right. I mean, I will say putting a pin in COVID is such a specific. It is such, I hope we never, you know, experience that again.

Yeah. Just, yeah, it brought out so many things that I think, you know, was, you know, unbelievable, you know, across the board. So it is such a specific, you know, a little bubble. And I think, too, and tell me what you think about this. And Rachel, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, too. but, you know, I tend to go to the spiritual side of the curriculum and really look like there's certain friendships that are in our lives to kind of hold our hand and we walk through life together and it's pretty good. And then there's certain friendships that come in and stir stuff up

and there's curriculum attached to it. And I think being able to differentiate walking away or what's being triggered in me. And what is the opportunity for healing in this situation? So like in Rachel's circumstance, it's like that feels like sole curriculum because she's never going to walk away from that person. It's not, it's not a person that she's not going to have a friendship with. So the bigger opportunity is this friendship is here to serve you in your curriculum of healing in a sense.

I don't think that I'm the one that needs to heal. Well, she's the one. Is this the same friend that you're talking about that you parted ways with? No. Oh, this is a different. Different. Okay, okay. Yeah.

It's a childhood, like, best friend and that we now differ in some important things. Got it. Got it, got it. So it's been a challenge for sure. Right. But, you know, I know I can be stubborn, but like, I just think, like, this person's core values have been hijacked a little bit. So, and influenced. And so, like, I don't know if I totally agree that it's her true self, you know?

But it's her now. And it's who she's proclaiming to be. So it's, like, this difficult thing of, like, okay, like, loving the person because you love the person. but also just kind of being like, but is this? I know, I keep saying like, is this really you? But it's obviously who she is right now. So it's like this weird thing of like.

Oh, I was talking about a different friendship. You were? Yeah, I was talking about the first friendship you brought up where it's like. Yeah, but I don't think that that really lined up with what you were just talking about. At first I thought you were talking about that. And then, well, whatever. Yeah, no, it does in the sense of, in the sense of your, pushed you get triggered and then the opportunity for the healing is you have to learn to

communicate that in a way that you might not have been comfortable with or people pleasing or putting other people's comfort above your own like so you have your own curriculum in that and to me that feels oh yeah but and i have done that and i talked to her about all the things but yeah i thought you're talking with the other one there's so many so the which friendship do we want to pick apart. Well, I think there's also a good point here. Another way to look at this is like when you're talking, it sounds like there are two relationships that we're just talking about with you, Rachel, right? And it sounds like, ask, if you ask yourself the question, if I could, if I could get this relationship on track right now, would I do it? And again, that's almost

kind of like the phone thing. If you think about it, what is your, what's your gut reaction? And I feel like I just kind of witnessed a very different, I didn't ask you that question, but I feel like just in the way you were talking about both friendships, I feel like in the first one, the answer would be yes. And in the second one, it might not be yes. Like, I don't know if I want this friendship back, right? Like, of course you want it back in the old way, but that's not possible. You can't go back. And if you answer the question, say, I want this relationship back, but that relies solely on that other person totally changing, then the answer is, no, I actually don't want this relationship. Right.

Because it means you want to be in a relationship with a different person. Right. And so that is another great piece of information, right? It's like, am I just tolerate? So often we're just tolerating these relationships. When if we asked ourselves, do I even want this relationship? If I'm being brutally honest with myself, a lot of the times the answer would be no. And it's like, so what am I doing?

here just tolerating all of this stuff like i you know if somebody if a girl if a friend was talking that way about somebody she was dating right would be like what do you get out what are you doing what are you doing with this guy or girl whoever you know whatever they're dating right and so that's kind of the way i'm hearing you talk about the second thing if i put subbed in a boy there or a romantic partner boy i'd be like this isn't feels like i know you've got a history but it's like what's going on. Right. You know?

The first one that you're talking about with the triggers and I, you know, I go just energetically, I feel like, no, I feel like there is something that you go, yeah, yeah, there's something to work there through there on the other side of this would be good, could be good, you know? Yeah. I'm not telling you what to do. Don't break up with anybody at my account, but I'm just saying it's a good question to say, do I really want to save this really? If I could save this relationship, would I, and just watch your visceral reaction?

Because often it'll be like, no. And it's like, well, why am I doing it? I do have a question on that. Because, and this is something that I think happens a lot that people may not be aware of, is that in relationships, whether it's friends or family, we care about the other person, right? Yeah. So much so that if there's a perceived judgment, or assumption that this person is harming themselves in some way, whether it be addiction or

even mental illness or avoidance, any one of those things. I think sometimes it can feel like personal and it can hurt. And I think that like in this situation, I think there's, there was no hurt done directly to Rachel, right? It's the hurt that one does to themselves that, then hurts Rachel. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And is this number one or number two? Number two, right?

Right, that's what I thought. It's not like they did anything that's unforgivable to her or anything like that. It's just, I think, Rachel, fill in the, fill in the blanks. Well, it's just when you know somebody is, like, worth so much more than they're even aware of, you know, and, like, decisions that you just, that they've made that you really don't support. support because you just know there's so much more for this person. So it's hard to accept, I guess. And yeah, it's not like she betrayed me, but it's like she's betraying herself. You know, like it just feels.

And Olivia, are you friends with this person without adding? Is this? Okay. And you don't suffer from the same outcome? No. Right. But she agrees with me. Right.

Right, right. But it just doesn't, it just doesn't like, yeah. She doesn't land on me. She's better at like, yes, I agree completely, but she can put it all aside to just maintain the friendship.

Where I have a harder time putting it aside. Would you want to do that? Do you want to put it aside? Do you want to be able to? to put it aside? That's such a tough question because, like, yeah, like, of course. Like, I love this person. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

I just have such a hard time with it. Mm-hmm. Such a hard time with it. Mm-hmm. And it's, it's, I don't know. It could just have to do with my own stuff of always feeling one. Like, I know something like inside me and I'm so clear on it. Mm-hmm.

I have such a hard time letting go of that. And like, I feel like I know I'm right about something. Yeah. But what if you are right? Right. And just have to accept. It's acceptance. Yeah.

That's all. That's hard. And there's a part of when you do it, if you do consciously accept it, it's like you then, is there a part of her that's going to think that, you know, you don't care anymore? or you believe that she's exactly where she should be, even though that's not a great sense. It doesn't sound like it's a great place to be. But you have to be okay with doing that, you know,

and feeling that way. I mean, I'm going to have to accept it at some point because I think it's just going to be what it is and time will just go by and it's not going to change. I think that's really the only way. Is this a situation of you don't agree with her choices? I guess you said just because she can, be so much more or these choices that are directly harmful to her not you like are there is there

an element of harm in it not like not like physical harm or like anything like that's just i mean potential or whatever it's a potential yeah and you know you know what i would love to see is what if you two did a session with aaron you're totally welcome Like what would come up if you did that session? Yeah, no. I mean, I would hear her side and she would hear my side. And I'm sure it would be helpful for sure. Does she think there's strain?

Does she understand their strain? Oh, she gets it. Okay. So this isn't something you're quietly kind of suffering. She understands there's friction. Right. No, I can be a very loud asshole. And what's her take on it?

Is it a problem for her? Yeah, of course. Okay. Right? I would imagine. Of course it is. I mean, I know she's talked to Olivia about it. So then Olivia, I imagine.

I imagine maybe. I don't know. Yeah, it's a tough one. It's a tough one for sure, you know. It is, but it also brings up another question is, it's very interesting the people you choose. at our ripe age versus the lifelong friendships. Because we have a unique situation where we have a group of girlfriends where we've all

been friends since some junior high high school. And we've stuck together this whole entire time. And so there's so much comfort in the fact that you can't recreate that with new friends. However, when you're seeking out new friendships, those new friendships, that you're seeking out look a lot different than your old friends. Definitely. Absolutely. But you're a different person making those friends.

Right. And there's like a seldom few that you actually like fully let in. Or at least that me anyway. No, totally. Yeah, totally. Because also you just as an adult. You don't have time. You don't have time and you are a more guarded person, you know, because of the time.

Because you're, you know, like if you, you know, when you look back to your earliest friendships, like in elementary school, It's like the number one kind of factor of friendship is proximity. It's like you're standing next to me. You've got the desk next to me. You're at the swings. Want to be friends? You know, obviously it's a little more detailed than, but proximity is a big thing. It's like who's been put in my world or whose world have I been literally dropped off by my mom or, you know.

And so now it's like so much different. It's like a level of selectiveness that's like, right? So like you're definitely just not. as open, much more specific. Yeah. And so much of that closeness is earned shared time. So if you do not, if you meet people now

and you do not really open up and make a consistent effort, right? So you have this consistent shared experience. You're never going to get to the level of close. It's almost impossible to catch up to something, you know, when you've spent, you know, thousands of hours with somebody that you've known

from high school or junior high. So yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's hard to recreate. It is for sure. And it's also like the other thing I want to say is when you really don't agree with a friend's romantic choice or partner or you can't get along. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's rough. Is that it grounds to break up with a friend.

You know what I mean? And I know this, like the natural answer is like, no, you support that friend or like whatever, but it creates a really complicated situation. It, yeah, and it can. And I actually specifically talk about this example in the book because it is so. The two things that are very, very complicated are the boyfriend or the partner that comes into the mix that you do not align with and do not have great feelings with. And the other thing is this group dynamic, which is so difficult because if something's not working between two of you, then there's like this fracture in the group. But so I think, look, you owe your the relationship in that other person.

If somebody comes in, especially if they're like a bad dude or a bad chick, you know what I mean? Like, you definitely owe that person your honest opinion. But even if they're not a bad, you know, bad, they're just like, or like just not like the person in your mind could do so much better. I think you still owe them some honesty, but like once. Once you've said your peace, then you've got to respect that the person is going to make the right decision for them. The caveat to that is if that person is constantly struggling in that relationship and coming to you for like, he did this again or. Right. And then it's like there's drama around it or it's just if it's taking up a lot of space in the relationship when you've also clearly.

kind of stated like this is like this isn't you know it's hard because then you're forced to be reconciling reconciling with this thing you kind of know in your head over and over again and that's inevitably going to take a toll on the relationship but the default setting is I think you owe it to the person to say something once lovingly uh you know but if they take that in and still make the choice to be with that person again assuming they're not like a dangerous person but like they make then you kind of have to let them do their thing as hard as that might be you know yeah um yeah i do have a question on that too well not on that but on you know you always hear like you are the sum of the five people you spend the most time with yeah so in that audit in that

evaluation of who am i giving my time to do you take those kind of things into consideration. Like, is that alone enough to break up with a friend? If you're like, okay, well, who am I as a human? What are my values? My core beliefs where I'm going, where I'm growing to. If I really am the sum of the five people I spend the most amount of time with, if I don't like that, do I change those friendships?

Or do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, I don't think that you necessarily have to break. up with them, but I think, you know, I talk about it in the book, you know, you have this inner circle and then you kind of have these intermediate or these situational relationships. So like soccer mom or work friend or da, right? And then you have this tier of acquaintances, which we often overlook, but they are quite valuable in and of themselves. So like, for example, if the girl, your friend who's a girl brings in a new romantic

partner and it is like, oh, and this is just something that's kind of weighing on you. You don't necessarily have to break up with them, but I do think you can rearrange your bench, right? Like, you can change the nature of the relationship. It doesn't mean you have to disavow this person, but you can understand like, okay, for, you know, going back to the, you're the five people, right? Like, this is just not something that I want totally shaping my world, right? So I can love you, but I'm going to love you a little more from afar, right? And it doesn't mean there has to be drama about it, but you can be a little more intentional about how much time you're spending with them, how much you're, you know, being that person they vent to constantly about the boyfriend

or, you know, things like that. I think, again, it says this awareness and then your intentionality. So it doesn't have to be like click, click, click, click, click, click. But you do want those, you know, four or five people that are on that, you know, inner tier to really, those relationships to really be bringing something to you. And you're obviously bringing something to them too. But like you want them to feel alive and like kind of inspired. And not at all times. Nobody's perfect in relationships go like this.

Of course, like ebbs and flows. But like, you know, you got to make some choices. Otherwise you're, it's a drag, right? Like even Olivia, when you said like, I'm hanging out with this friend and every time after I hang out with her, I'm kind of like, ugh. this is a good piece of information. Do I talk about that specifically in the book? It's like if every time you hang out with this person,

you kind of feel either super exhausted or like, you got to take a look at that, right? And it doesn't mean cutting that person out, but this is somebody you're spending tremendous amount of time with or this is one of your top five, like I would start to reposition there, right? Like if you don't think a conversation would be helpful. Right.

Yeah. If this is just what this dynamic is and this is who this person is, then I would try and reestablish the rule. I wouldn't cut them out. But like, just because somebody makes it onto that inner tier, again, it's like the idea of like how to break up with your friends. I'm not saying you have to break up with them, but it's got to be on the table. There's got to be like, you're not a Supreme Court justice. Like you don't make it in this thing and then like you're there for life. Like you've got to be, you got to pay a.

tension. How am I feeling in this? Does this feel good? Do I feel exhausted? Or do I feel like, my God, I love this person. I feel kind of generally energized by them, you know? And I'm energizing to them, the relationship. You know, it's just like this is something that's like productive. Yeah. I like that like changing up the bench or like changing up the lineup or like whatever it is. It's a really good like way to just put it. Yeah. Very rarely do you have to like, it's an, it's an exceptional. circumstance, I think, when you actually break up formally with a friend. And COVID was a very good example of where that actually happened, like, much more frequently than ever before. But again, those are such a specific set of circumstances going into that, right? So, like, it is very rarely

like I'm calling you up and ending this. It's more about what is the role of this relationship in my life? Do I want it to be better than what it is right now? Am I willing to put the effort in to get it there? Or do I need to position it somewhere else energetically, right? Like take it out of the starting lineup. And that's just it, you know? And then you do that.

Yeah. Have you seen situations where you're like this actually merits a breakup where like what are those extrunuating circumstances that you'd be like, This is something you should no longer tolerate or... Yeah. You know, just really... And I don't use this word lightly. I feel like people throw it around a lot inappropriately, but toxic friends.

That really, again, are not necessarily, not only not on your value wavelength, but are not on a value system. So, like, I had one specific friend that, like... And again, and I talked about this in the book, that... that I had to look at my own role and like, why did I keep this going for so long? And then I had a real kind of epiphany about like, I had this thing like where I needed to come in and save this person every time. And then I'd be so exhausted from saving this person. You know, she'd get in all these situations like nonstop drama. Like I'm getting kicked out of my apartment.

Got fired for my job. My dog got hit by a car. You know those people that it's just like, how is this all happening to you? You know what I mean? And then I'd swoop in and be like, I got it. I'll help, you know, dead of it. And then the next morning, I'd call her and be like, are you okay? And she'd be like, about what?

And I'm like, like, you called me from jail last night. You know what I mean? Like that, like, what? Like, I've been up like this and she's just like, yeah, yep, it's a Tuesday. You know what I mean? Anyways, I let her stay in my, I have a little backhouse and she just treated it so badly. And that was my big breaking point where I was like, this is unhinged and I cannot be a part of this. This is like, I need this person out of my life.

This is, this is diminishing returns at this point. And so, like, that would be an example where it's like, this is got this is no, right? Like, somebody that is, I think, where you don't feel safe with them. Like, so again, like going back to there's venting and then there's somebody where you go tell them something. And all of a sudden that's like that news is like with other people over and over again. So like Uber gossipy, Uber like. So if you feel like I can't at all trust this person, this is, you know, that's somebody that's got to go.

You've got to have some core elements of friendship, right? Trust would be one of them, that they're not going to turn around and kind of more than talk shit, but like divulge secrets, you know, put that out in the world is not good. That's somebody you've got to. There's no, somebody that's jealous of you. Jealousy is a very inherent thing that is very hard to extricate. That often deeply has to do with some unresolved stuff of the other person, right?

Jealousy is one of those things that if you have a friend that is jealous of you, it's very insidious. It's very hard to get rid of. It doesn't have to be a dramatic breakup. It's not like you're jealous of me, but this is somebody that absolutely you need to be moving out. Well, you know what I'm saying? Like people that just, they can't support you. They can't be happy for you. They're when you're down and out there, you're bestie.

They're like, you know, like calling you like, are you okay? Are you okay? Like almost trying to keep you in that spot, which is very cynical, but I see it all the time. And then when you have wins, it's kind of like they're not there or they don't want to talk about it. Or that you know what I'm saying? Like this for me is a dead end. Like that's it's just too much to overcome. So regardless of your history with them, this to me is almost insurmountable.

So that would be something. And when they're like that too, like we know someone we're like, we're that person. It's disorderly. Right. Yes, totally. You're like, oh, they cannot be happy for other people. It's like an attack against them, no matter what someone else's win is. Right.

It's somehow a personal attack against them. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Is something where you're like, I can't. Well, one, you can never trust the person because you feel like I can't share any truths with you because you're going to take them personally. Right, right. No, absolutely.

It's too steep of a mountain to climb. If somebody has inherent jealousy, it's too difficult. Too difficult. That's somebody that. Yeah, too difficult. That's just not worth the return on your investment. I don't think you'll really make any headway, to be honest with you. Anyway, so that's a scenario where I would just say, unfortunately, no.

What about personality disorders? It's really tough because, again, like working in the mental health thing, it's not, you don't want to be like, oh, that, you know, labeled this person is this. I can't whatever. But, you know, would I jump into a new relationship with somebody that clearly, you know, has an active personality disorder? I think that's challenging. You know, again, it's like, that's an uphill situation.

If you're friends with somebody for a long time that has developed, like a legitimate personality disorder, yeah, I don't, like, I don't think that's a case of where you need to, like, cut them off, but you certainly need to, understand and put some pretty firm boundaries in your own mind about where you will go with it. If not, it's a very slippery slope, especially with personality disorders. You know, it's like, it can be very, you know, tricky. Yeah. So that's tough. But you got to really check in with yourself and see, like, how you're feeling in that relationship. And I feel like the only way you can continue to feel pretty good is if you've got some pretty clear things of how you will and won't

engage with that person. Right. Right. It's not your responsibility to fix anybody also. It's, it's, you know, it's hard enough to fix yourself, you know. So they also, I think you'd have to see them kind of, I hate this phrase, but doing their own work to like manage what's going on as difficult as that is. Somebody that is not doing any of that doesn't have any protocols in place to try and help themselves or people in their world to that can actually help them if that's not in place.

Again, you're going to find yourself in that place that's like it's a really steep mountain to climb. If they do have process in place and they do, you know, largely are really working at it and seem to be generally functioning, then yourself with some really clear kind of boundaries of like where you're willing to go. It can work. It can definitely work, especially if you've had a long history with them. I mean, it's not.

I would never just be like, yep, no, no, definitely not. Right. Yeah. I think like all of this, like, it's, there's so many helpful tips or, you know, things to go by or things to just remind yourself. I mean, especially, like, my favorite takeaway is like when the phone rings and you see the name. And I think just like putting that out there.

Just start there. Yeah, so many people can relate. And it's such a way to put it. And I think it's just brilliant. And your book is brilliant. Oh, thank you. And you're brilliant, and we're so happy that you came on to just talk about all this. It's so relatable.

I feel like we just had a session. I feel like we could ask you a million more questions. Yeah. Even, you know, I think that if the audience has any questions and they want to write in, maybe we have you back to answer some questions to a little segment sometime. Yeah, it'll be awesome. I'll answer theirs. I would love to. Yeah, I feel like so many come up.

It's like such a hot topic. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I would love to do that. Amazing. But get the book. It's actually brilliant and it's going to make you look at all your relationships and really evaluate them. And I think that's the most.

No one's going to have any friends. No new friend. I'm just kidding. Aaron's a new friend. Yeah. I know. We're so lucky. Who's in the pudding, people?

When you said kids picking the friends, I'm like, thank goodness. separate picked uh oh yeah jude because yeah that's how it all came together that was a big win

for us yeah yeah amazing well thank you Aaron thank you guys so much yeah it was so great you gotta come back yeah anytime

that was a hate gum podcast