Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Infidelity

Episode Date: June 29, 2022

This week’s bonus episode revolves around the very uncharted and uncomfortable topic of Infidelity. Rachel and Olivia are joined by their best friend, Lea, who opens up about her recent and unique experience with the topic, all while the broads share their opinions on emotional and physical cheating, porn, human nature and more!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yellow, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, hear stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast on HBO Max, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to broad ideas.

So, Olivia, this conversation today, we have our third musketeer, our third bestie, the top point of our trio triangle. Leah is with us today. And I know we've talked about this, but I've never felt more proud of her vulnerability,

her openness, her willingness to discuss what she has experienced and on a topic that it's a difficult one. Yeah. Infidelity. Her story is remarkable. Her storytelling is riveting. It's a very unique perspective on it.

When you told me that you wanted to have her on to come talk about it, that was not the conversation I was expecting. Yeah, right. And I think that's why I'm so excited for everyone to listen to it because it's so unique and I could not be more proud. Also, I have to say, Leah, our lovely Leah and Charlotte Lawrence, they co-wrote our theme song, which might be my favorite song of all time. So we have to give credit where credits do because they killed it.

And then Genevieve recorded it. And Stephen Patterson did a great job. Yes. Performing it. And she performed it so beautifully. The collaboration, we're very lucky, very fortunate. It's a really good song. It's a really good song.

It gets stuck in my head all the time. So let's give it a listen. Sometimes when inside of these thoughts are swirling, round and round inside to join us on this journey as we take a little ride. We'll talk about dogs and kids and things. We'll talk about chicks and tampon strings. We'll talk about boys. Because people die.

So a really interesting topic today. Yeah. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. I'm not only curious to hear your thoughts on it. I'm more curious to hear our other best friend, Leah. Welcome, Leah. Hello. Hello.

Hello. Leah, our absolute love of our life, other bestie, about 30 years deep here. Yep. I thought you were going to say about 30 years older than us. Oh. No. I'm kidding. Wow.

So this is. is fun. I'm just going to put that out there. What's not fun. Yeah, this is fun. That's not fun. What's not fun is infidelity. Infidelity sucks. Yeah. Unless you're on the other end. Like at Leo over there. No. Yeah. This was just kind of a really interesting topic that we often discuss. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I feel like Rachel and I often land on the same page with it. Like against it. Yes. Hardcore.

Not the biggest fan of it. What are your thoughts on that? I think it's human nature. To cheat? Yeah. You think it's human nature to cheat? I think it's human nature. I think not cheating is a choice.

Interesting. And a great choice for a lot of people. But it's not our natural inclination. Like people weren't put on earth to be. monotonous. Yes. Monotonous. What? No. Proudian. Freudian slip there. People are not put on earth to be bored as far. And with the same person every day. No, but like, yeah. I'm just saying. I'm going to have a point. Yes, you do. That is my point. That is one of my things is I always get words wrong.

But I knew what I was trying to try it. I thought you're going to say you always have a point. That's one of my things. I'm really good at getting to the point. I'm really good at points. Monogamous, everybody. So do you think someone's going against It's their true nature if they don't go outside their relationship. No. I mean, you can't clump human beings into one thing. Everybody's different. You are more like cheating is no and like it's bad and wrong and like you shouldn't do it.

Both of you, I feel like. For it to be done to me. Right. But you're okay doing it. You can know? No, I've actually never cheated on anyone. Yeah, no. I legitimately have never cheated on anyone.

Yeah. I have. any time. You're a little shyster. Yeah, I'm very shasty. No, but I just feel like monogamy is a man-made thing. Well, people didn't live to be 100 when it was. And guess how I know this, guys.

Guess how I know this fact. Jeopardy. A little movie I did called The Last Kiss. I had a scene with Zach Brough. And my character explains to him that marriage, essentially monogamy, was invented when people lived to be like 30 years old. So you only had to make it to 30 with one person and it was easier than making it to 100. Yeah. Be honest.

Yeah. Yeah. Little known. Interesting. Yeah. But yeah. And it's not just men either. Like women too. I feel for like all people. Like it's hard to be with the same person day in, day out. Emotionally, physically, it's difficult. And it takes a lot of work. And some people are not cut up. for that. Would you feel that it was wrong if someone, is that you're going to say? Cheater on you? Wrong. Yeah. Like I would feel I've been cheated on, as you both know. Yes. It's more lying is not okay. So that to me, lying. So not the actual act of physically being with another person. That

doesn't bother you necessarily. Yes. It doesn't bother you? Like the thought of your man's like weiner in someone else's vagina, it doesn't bother you. Sex is sex to me. Interesting. Emotional connection bothers me more. Right. Than just. Well, I feel like I've heard that a lot where if it's an emotional connection, it's

way harder than a physical connection. It is. So I want to know if there's a detachment for you. Maybe. I feel like if Jeff cheated on me. I would be so angry at him. I think you'd be destroyed. I think you would be.

It's weird. All I know is that I understand why people change. cheat, I guess you could say. But it's all subjective to different situations. If someone I love gets cheated on by someone I love, I'm going to feel hurt and pain for the person that got cheated on if Jeff cheated on you, which he would never fucking do. I sure hope. I don't see that happening. I just don't. Jeff makes a choice every day to be the best husband he can be to you. But you guys also have something very rare and special. I don't know a lot of people in my life that have what you guys have if I'm being completely real. Even a lot of the relationships in my life that I look at,

people that have been together for a long time that love each other, I'm not like, damn, they got it figured out. Like I look at you and Jeff and I'm like, wow, you guys got something. What you have is different than what a lot of people have. For sure. Thanks, guys. That means a lot. Have you ever been in a relationship where you haven't cheated? I have, oh, yeah. Listeners. It's okay. Okay, let's put it this way. I have always had a boyfriend and I've always been an unfaithful in one way, shape, or form. If I'm being completely honest, whether it's been emotional or physical, I haven't been 100%. With anyone? No. Do you experience guilt or shame? No. What? But I am sober now. That could make a difference. Because you haven't experienced it.

Since you became sober, you haven't been in that position. Well, no. Well, I'm curious, though, because even when I drank, I would feel guilt and shame if I ate Taco Bell. You know what I mean? Like, I would be like, I'm the biggest piece of shit on earth. I felt guilt or shame about my drinking and stuff like that. But not about cheating. Never. That's so interesting.

No, I think, I mean, what is it? Yeah, like, what do you think it is? Like, you just think there's nothing wrong with it? No. No. I think I'm fucked up. I have issues. Don't we all?

Yeah, you know? It's like something from my childhood. And also, mind you, my childhood with my biological parents, there was a lot of infidelity on both ends. And that was very accepted and normal. So I kind of grew up now, I was really small and I didn't know that. But like, you grew up in a household where it was accepted as a, well, it was just like, that's what happened. And I like know that very much so. That's been talked about. Like, I know my biologic father slept with all of my mother's friends. And your mom wasn't bothered by

that? Yeah, she was bothered by it. Yeah, of course. But she loved him and stayed with him. She wouldn't have left him. Interesting. I'm a lot like mommy. Do you guys know my mom? Mom is like so understanding of... Yeah. To the point where...

And this is my problem too. To the point where it's like can be detrimental. Mm-hmm. Where I forgive things that I shouldn't. Yeah. Because I'm like, oh, they're broken. Oh. You're always trying to save the person.

I searched desperately for the good and people to the point that it's like unhealthy. I don't even think you search for it. I don't. I just see it. It's actually really easy for you, and you actually have to put more effort in searching for why you can't love them. Like, she has to work harder to talk herself out of loving people than she does to see the good in them. She sees the good too much. Right.

It's too effortless for you. Yeah, true. It doesn't come with. My therapist says that's a survival skill. Yeah, it is. And it's one of your most beautiful qualities. So it's a tricky one. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm very forgiving. You're too forgiving. I am too forgiving. I am too forgiving. I mean. But it's also like every single friend of mine, I know everybody's secrets. Everybody tells me everything because they know I would never judge them.

I'm never going to be like, that's fucked up. You shouldn't do that. Oh, wow. Like, I get it. I will give you that. So like even people that don't know me that well. Well, I beg to do. For who?

You did give away one of my deepest, darkest secrets at one point. What? Oh. You gave away one of my deepest darkest secrets and I was judged. So I will challenge you. But she didn't judge you. Or did you? Yes, she didn't have told me.

You did. You did. That was sleeping with a friend's boyfriend. No, ex-boyfriend. Ex-boyfriend. Ex-boyfriend. But a very close. But a very significant.

Yeah. Well, here's the funny. You know what's interesting too? Okay. So like, yes. I will say. I feel like everyone did have a judgment on that. I had a judgment on myself.

Right. We were in our 20s, right? Yeah. I just, I wanted you to tell her. And you didn't for like two years. And she kept fucking coming at me. You know how she's like, it was on me. Like I was carrying it.

But she never came to you and said, I feel like Olivia did something. No, she didn't say that. But she was like, I feel something's weird. She would talk to me about him. He would be weird. He was weird to her after for a long time. And it was constantly coming at me. That's why I was like, you need to tell her.

But that being said, also, yes, I was judgy in that sense. Because I value my friendships more than any relationship in my life. And like, that's just a big no-no. Like, I would never personally. That is Jenny. Other than that. It's judging. Because I did that.

Isn't that funny? That's like a hard line for me, which is weird. That you would never like fuck a friend's ex. You've never? I've never fucked a friend's ex. I've had many of my exes fucked by my friends. But I would never fuck a friend's ex. I asked permission.

Yes, you did. And I usually have been asked permission. So there is judgment there. There is judgment there. We're diving in. Yeah, this is what you came for. Because, yeah, I guess it's funny. If I was to do that to a friend, I would feel immense guilt and change.

So I never have done that. But I can cheat on a no problem. And it's like, fuck you. Who cares? Deal with it. So it has something to do with, I very much value my relationships with women. They're very, like, everything to me. And I know I'm never going to let some dick get in between me and my bitches, basically.

Get in. And that is a surefire way to do that. And Lou, you know that firsthand. But I will say this, Lou. Yes. I mean, it was a long time ago. I would have done. things differently. It's okay. I forgive you. We're airing it out here. I would have done things

differently. I mean, I would, if I'm being completely honest. I'm not the same person than I was back then. It was a different time. I was, you know, we were all sorts of looked at. Yeah. And I was closer to her during that time. Well, I think, too, it comes down to more of, I think you also hold people to their own value system. It just was so out of character. Not for you. But that was your addiction when you were deep in your addiction. Men. No, I'm just going to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I do. You're right. I hold you on a very high pedestal and I always have. So that was just shocking for me. It was like, what the fuck? Because you were always like, you're our sounding board. You're the one we would always go to for everything. Do you have higher regard for the women in your life? Is it that you trust them more? Probably. In your childhood,

I mean, yeah, it's, I'm just trying to think if I've ever done that to anyone. No. I don't think so. When I was 14 in high school. That doesn't count. I didn't do it. I mean, it wasn't like, yeah, no, I don't know. It's interesting, though.

Well, here's a question for you because you're saying you don't care the sexual act, whatever. It's the lying. So you recently, within the past couple of years, went through something. Traumatic. Yeah. Traumatic. You were cheated on ruthlessly, not in a traditional sense. No.

And traditional as well. I found out later as well. Oh, really? Really? Well, is this new information? No, I told you guys. I mean, he was making content with her, but he was like with that girl. So basically your ex-boyfriend.

My ex-boyfriend that I was with for six years, who I did love. or I thought I did, whatever. He was living a double life as a part-time porn star. I mean. Yeah. He was a porn star. Yeah, he did porn from basically the entire relationship. And I did not know.

To be fair, I did know that he had a past in it. Right. He did tell me in the beginning of our relationship, once he had me hook, line, and sinker. He admitted to me that he had a past in that world, but it was long past him. And I think he did that to cover his track so that if I ever looked him up, which I did, and I saw it, or if anybody ever said, oh, I saw so-and-so in this, he would say, yeah, but I told you. Remember, I used to do that.

Now, it didn't sit well with me that he did. I never, you know, but because of the kind of person I am and is like understanding, and I was like, well, you know, and I justified it in some way, shape, or form. And I was like, oh, it's a part of his past. I'm not going to judge him. Like, he's moved on from that and da-da-da. The truth was he had never stopped. It was very much a part of his past, present, and probably future.

How did you find out? I found out because. So, Rachel. I told both you and Ray, it took a lot. It took me a while to tell you guys. I was ashamed to, no, I told you that he had done it in the past. After like a year, I waited. I didn't tell you guys right away.

Because I was embarrassed. You know, and I was like, I didn't want you to judge him. And let's be real, nobody really ever cared for this guy. And you were right. There were red flags from the get-go. I never told my brother because my brother hated him. George had a feral dislike from day one. He had a lot of reasons, too.

Yes, he did. And he also is extremely protective of me and puts me on a pedestal. So he thinks I deserve a king, which I do. But anyways, call in now. But he never knew. And somehow along the line. I'll tell you the story. Yeah, Rachel, why don't you go ahead.

Well, I don't have the best memory. No, Rachel has no memory. You did tell me never to tell George, I guess, at one point. I told you guys specifically. And I have no recollection of that. Do you? No. Zero. Well, you never told George.

The way you told me is if I knew, you never told me. You told me years and years later. I found out a year prior. Yeah. So this happening. I didn't even know. Well, I just didn't remember that. So George and I, it's the pandemic.

We're in lockdown. We're on FaceTime. It's making his bed. I'm cleaning. We're just talking. And somehow I'm just like, yeah, well, you know, so-and-so, the porn star. And George literally drops his sheaths, Uh-huh.

Runs up to the camera, looks at me in utter horror, and goes, what? It's like probably his worst nightmare, my poor baby. I know. So I honestly had no recollection that I totally thought George knew. Everyone knew at this point. It's been years and years. Yeah, it had been years. I mean, this was like six years deep at this point.

Sure. So you used to do porn. Yeah, that he used to do porn. And so you assumed George knew at this point. I guess I was talking. I just put it out there. Understandably. Did not think I was telling him this information.

I don't care. And so that night, he and his partner decided to look up this porn. And what they discovered was a very active porn career. It was a very current. Current. Current and active. That started. And they were writing to me and sending me pictures and videos.

And I seemed to Olivia and were like, that hair, that's the hair. We didn't like his hair now. That is absolutely happening. as we speak and I think they called and told you. They were the ones that were like, hey, he's still doing porn. And you were like, no, no, no, baby. Like, that's all in the past. So, yeah. So George was being weird to me.

And I called him out and I was like, look, and you had told me. You're like, I slipped to George. And so I said, look, I know Rachel slipped to you about so. And so as I was past. I never told you because you've never been a big fan anyways. I didn't want to give you more reason. But that's part of his past and blah, blah. And he was like, no, honey, it's not.

not in the past. It's right now. And I'm like, no, no, no, honey. It's in the past. Honey. And there's just like back and forth. And then he's like, no, honey.

Meanwhile, homie's in our bed. In my bed room. Oh, fuck. When this conversation's happening, he's in your bed. Correct. And I'm on my phone on the couch in the other room. So then brother sends me the current. The porn.

Yeah. porn as well as like they found like, They found like all the years it came out. And mind you, when I did a porn search of this person years prior, I'm not going to keep looking up his porn. It's like, I saw what I had to see. I'm like, all right, this is what he did. I looked.

It was old shit that I found. I trusted him. And I'm like, why would I keep searching for my boyfriend's porn that he used to do? Like, I don't even watch porn really. Yeah, we lived together. He was my person. We were engaged. Like, he was, had a dog and a home.

Like, you know, he was my person. So I thought. So, yeah. So George sends me that screenshot after screenshot and I'm sitting on the couch and I'm like starting to, I'm about to shit my pants. Like I'm like, you know that feeling. Hot. Yeah. Like my literal body.

Like stomach is in my throat. And I'm like, oh my God. Like it's like your life flashes before your eyes. Yeah. Because we have spent six years. That's a long ass time. A lot of energy. A lot of love.

And when I love, I love heart. You fought so hard for him. I fought hard for him anyways. Everyone hated him from day one and you stuck by it. It was tough anyways because he didn't give people a lot of reason to love him. Let's put it that way. He didn't make it easy. And I stood up for him and fought for him.

And so you can imagine that feeling. And I'm like, wow. So you, did you confirm him? I go into the, oh, oh, TMI. I had been battling this brutal bladder infection. And I don't like get bladder infections. And I had to go to the doctor a couple times. I had to take antibiotics for it.

And it wasn't the first time I had gotten one either. And it was weird, you know? I was like, what the fuck? Why are you getting all these infections? I'm used to his dick at this point. Like, why am I getting this weird bladder infection? And it was like a weird one. And it wouldn't go away.

It was like for a month. And all of a sudden, everything makes sense, you know, and you're like, oh, fuck, oh, fuck. Okay. So I go into the, I was so calm too. It was so strange. I'm calm in the strangest situation sometimes. And I said, hey, I know how I got that bladder infection.

Oh, shit. That's what you led with? Yes. I know. It's like a movie. And he's like, oh. And I'm like, it's all the porn you're making. I don't know if you've ever told us this.

No, I don't even think we got that far because we were just in such shock. We were all in shock. Oh, my God. What did he say? Oh, mind you, mind you. I am four months newly sober. Oh, fuck. Because I'm an alcoholic.

He, his face. She's like gray. He went gray. And he was like, what? And I said, yeah, it's all the porn you're making. So you get your stuff and you need to go. I was really calm. It wasn't some like big dramatic thing. He tried to lie. What did he say? No, it's not. La la la. Literally, you guys, the most recent one he had made was less than a month prior. Oh, my God. I remember you were looking back through and you're like, oh, that shirt right there. I brought him to wear. to your wedding. Oh, and that date? Oh, that was when my grandmother passed away

and he said he couldn't be there. I can't. Because he was fucking making a porn. So that was fucked up. Did you want to believe him that it was like yada yada? His story? His story is he has a sex addiction.

Which is maybe true. But like I don't even think, I think, who fucking cares, honestly, at the end of the day? Right. He has a sex addiction. And you're, my love and you're the only person I've ever felt this way about. And it was like driving through a drive-through for me. It's a paycheck and men nothing. Also, his lack of respect for these women

bothered me. Like that bothered me. Right. And it bothered me about myself that I could love somebody that could have that little respect for women. Because the way he was about women was really disrespectful. The way he feels about women is really disrespectful. So, there was so many facets that like made it so fucked up on so many levels. But bottom line is yes, he was leading a double life and gave me countless doctor's visits because of it. I'm good. Now I'm fine. So what you were saying earlier is that it's not the cheating. It's the lying. Yeah. Does that still apply in this situation? I don't even, I don't even consider like doing the porn cheating. He did initially end up cheating on me with a girl that,

he ended up making content with but the rest of the year I spent 2020 COVID lockdown obsessively watching all of the content that he was making after we split up. I mean talk about like how fucked up can you be right with this girl that he cheated on me with

like it's like your worst it's your version of like stalking like an ex Instagram and it's exactly my version of it it was on Twitter. You just have to see him actually. It was on Twitter. Yeah. It's like a matter.

Oh yeah. We all saw it. It was disgusting. It's your. It's exactly what it is. It's my version, except it's a very distorted, fucked up one. Right. But are you hurt by the cheating in this instance? I'm hurt by the lack, just the complete lack of respect and common decency. And you have to be so fucked up and selfish to be able to do something like that to somebody. And to top it off, it's like, I fought so hard for this relationship.

I went through a period in my family where it was causing friction with my family and I suck up for him. You know, like I put so much on the line for it and I'm a great freaking girlfriend. I take care of the people I love, you know? And so when you like give it your all and you fight for it and all that and then only to find out, also like I'm like, damn, you just proved everyone in my life right. Like here I am fighting for you, fighting for this. And they were right all along. And so it was like this whole mesh of which I still to this day struggle with and deal with of self-hate. You know, how could you be so fucking stupid?

There were red flags. How could you ignore that? How could you not see this? How did you not know this? But had you known if he came to you and you knew he was still making porn, would you have been okay with that in a relationship with him? If he had been on it, this would never, this is like hypothetically in like another world, if he was like, I have a problem. I need help. This is my situation. I'm in love with you. I want to work on myself. I want to make the... Well, sure. I mean, who knows? I don't know. I don't know. But... Well, not even that. What if he just came to you and was like, I'm doing... This is my career.

Oh, this is my career. If I had... No, that's another thing, too. Thank you. I was never given an option. I wasn't given a choice. I wasn't given a choice. I wasn't given a choice. I wasn't given a choice. Would I choose to date a porn star? No. Right. No. And what were the red flags that you saw looking back that you won't miss again if you're in a relationship? Our first night together was a red flag, which I should have, you know, but also, and this is not making excuses for myself and this is just me judging myself. So this is why I have to like preface it with this. But I was not sober. And when you're not sober, when you're an alcoholic, you, all facets of your life are affected by that. Even if you're, if you don't realize it's the alcoholism affecting it at that time. But the men you date, the choices you make are all affected by that.

Sure. Right, Lou? Right. So, exactly. So I was talking to a girlfriend on my way here and saying if I, because I was emotional today for whatever reason. And I said if I had met him today, where I am today, two years sober, working on myself, maybe I would have fucked him one night and like, you know. Because let me, we had great sex.

He was great in bed, clearly. But I would never have made him my boyfriend. Like, I would have been like, oh, those guys are red. Like, I would see that now because I have clarity. I don't have fucking drugs and alcohol in my system. They're like, oh, whatever, you know. But at the time, I didn't have that. So what about the first night that you met him was a red flag?

So the first night I met him, he was staying or living with a friend in Malibu. And Malibow. I just seemed that so weird. Malabalabal. Malibu. And he invited me to the house. And he was like, oh, come. Like, it's chill.

Like, we have a pool. His girlfriend's coming. We're going to all hang out. And I'm, like, easygoing. You know, so I was like, I love Malibu. Like, that sounds great. But then I did get a little nervous. I was like, I let my brother know where I was, whatever.

Drove out there. Get there. And it's just me and him and this dude whose girlfriend is apparently coming. And it was a fuck den. I mean, the house itself was a fuck den. Like, it was clearly like just a dude lived there. But it was a nice place in Malibu. There was like a Ferrari and a portion of the drive.

You know, it was like a nice place. And I was like, what's going on here? Like, it was just a little bit like, hey? It was a porn den. Yeah, real, basically. No, no, I know. And his friend was really good looking too. He was really cute and really nice and personable.

And we went into the backyard and he's like, oh, yeah, my girlfriend's coming. Like, you know, whatever. There was like a fire in the backyard. daybed and like the pool and the moon and the steam. It was like gorgeous, you know. And I was like, oh, okay, it's a little fun. But then, I mean, this is going to paint me like I'm with some, I don't even give a shit, whatever. I am comfortable with the woman I am. No. I was also had just gotten out of another shitty relationship. That had just ended. Well, marcissistic personality disorder. Great taste in men. I had just gotten out of a shitty relationship with him.

And so I was kind of in this like, I don't give a fuck. Like, I'm going to just fucking, like, live my life and do whatever. And this hot guy invited me. And I'm just like, if I want to have sex with him, I'm going to have sex with him. I'm like, just like living my life. So we did end up having sex that night on this day, bed outside after his friend had gone to bed. His friend had not gone to bed. His friend, I'm literal reverse cowgirl fucking him, which I don't think I've ever done again since.

You know when you first have sex with someone, though, you're like being up the stuff. Yeah. Look what I can do. Yeah. I was like, shoot. I was chewing out in the mood. Look what I can do. And I'm like literal reverse cowgirl, which, yeah, literally, I don't think I've ever done again in our entire relationship.

Oh, you really reel them in. Did he direct you into that? Or was that your idea? No, he probably directed me. Yeah. You're reverse cowgirl. I'm reversed cowgirl. Like, butt naked.

And just like, we were having fun. It was fun. Like, you know what? I was like, whatever. And his friend comes downstairs and outside. And I like, jump off the dick. That sound effect was... Can you do that again?

I swear, like, because I remember it so vividly. And this has never happened to me before, ever. Like, I've never been in this kind of situation. I'm a girlfriend guy. Like, I always... You're a girlfriend guy? I'm a girl who always has boyfriends. Like, you know, I'm just...

Just regular cheating. Yeah. This was actually probably... probably the craziest thing I've ever done. Like, sleep with the guy the first night. Like, all this. Like, honestly. Times have changed.

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No, but I mean overall, like, sure, I've, like had my fun. But, like, I just mean, like, it was a stage. Like, you were out, sad, reverse cowgirl. It was like, yeah. He walks out. His friend walks out.

Yeah, I hop off the peen. And I'm like, what the fuck in his friend's like, hey. Like, ready to join the party, like tag team. How did he say it? He's like, hey, what you guys doing? Walking over, Tass. And you're butt naked. But naked.

And I'm on the day, so I grab a pillow. My immediate visceral reaction was like, no, no, no, no. No. What the fuck? No. I thought you said he was cute. He was cute. Here's a funny thing.

I'm not against even threesome. Like, hey, two hot guys like wanting me, fine. But I want to be in on the fucking decision. In on it. Like, I don't want to be bombarded by dick. Like, also. Like, I want to. I wanted to be like a note.

Like it should be a discussion where you're like, hey, are you comfortable with this? Of course. I felt cornered. I felt like I was a little, like, tricked. Tricked. Yeah. Like, how long had he been watching? Oh, I'm sure he had been watching the whole fucking time from his fucking window, perver.

Anyways, whatever. So, and meanwhile, homie that I've just having sex with is just laying there. He's like rigid. Laying there. Like, dick out. Doesn't, dick out. Doesn't say anything. It's just like, dead quiet.

He's not like, dude, go away. No. He's, he's, I swear to God, he like, wasn't even breathing. He, like, had held his breath, like, almost like he, I could tell he was like. This was clearly like a routine between the two of them. Oh, this is clearly something they did. So I said no, no, no, no. You said that.

Not happening, bro. Yeah. Like that, I didn't even, like, think about it. It's just what automatically came out. Like, did you go put your clothes on? No, I just sat. And his friend got the picture and went away. He went left, walked away.

And I punch the dude that I'm with. And I'm like, what the fuck? dude, this is what you do? Is this what you do? You just like bring random girls here and you guys just like fuck them. It was probably the first and only time he was ever honest with me. He's like, yeah, he's like, I'm single. I do whatever the fuck I want. I prefer to be in a monogamous relationship, but I'm a single dude right now. And so, yeah, I mean, I have. Yeah. And I was like, he was so honest and upfront about it. Part of me was like, okay, well, he's being wrong. Disarming. Imagine that. Like a guy's on.

honest and you're like, oh, how refreshing. How refreshing. So I appreciated the honesty and was like, well, I don't do this. And like, you could have fucking warned me. He's like, I told him I didn't want to with you. Do you believe that? I don't know. Who knows? I mean, no. But here's what's interesting. The next day. That was it. We were together from the next day on after that. He never left. Interesting. I mean, I am a quality woman. This sounds so funny after I'm like, yeah, it was like reverse But like the truth is like, I'm sexual, sure, and I'm all those things. However, I have big boobs. I got blonde hair. You look at me. I've had countless dudes say you were built for fucking. You were built for sex. Like it's easy to write me off if you don't know me. No, I'm just being honest. I know. I know.

But I surprise men because the truth is underneath all that. And I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm just being honest. This is like something I know about myself and I'm proud of is that I'm a hell of a lot more than that. And a lot of guys are really surprised by that. They don't expect that. They think I'm just this like, LA. They don't think God gives with both hands. Maybe. Oh, I love you. I mean, I'm not saying, I'm no supermodel. I'm not like, I have my shit, you know, but like, I think they're surprised. You know, I'm an LA girl and I've got that look, you know, got boobs and the right curves in the right places and all that shit. But then once a guy get, like, I think they get pleasantly surprised. They're like, oh, wait, oh, I can have both. You can have both?

Yeah, but there's a difference too, and this isn't judgment on people that go by those things. But I think there's a difference between the typical L.A. girl and the big boobs and the lips and the this. Right. Well, I'm all natural to be. Not that I'm against any of that. That's what I'm saying. It's not a judgment, but it's also like your values and who you are as a person is so far from any of those things that you just naturally. look like that, but it has zero to do. It's like Jessica Rabbit, I was just drawn this way. I was just drawn this way. No, I feel, I sound like an asshole. Like I'm like, no, I'm not. You're a remarkable human being. Yeah, I need to, because I'm also the hardest on myself ever. It's beyond okay. It's the truth. You're a remarkable human. You're an incredible person. You're everybody's

favorite. We're all obsessed with you. True. You're a gift. You're funny. You're pretty. You're sexy. you're a caretaker, you'll make your due to this stay. And my number is. Yeah. No, I mean, listen, we would marry you. Yeah. You are my wifie. Yeah.

I am both of your wifie. And it's funny too because, like, I have the hardest time in relationships. And it's so funny. It's the strangest thing. I guess it's not funny. But it's not funny at all. But this relationship started on a night with a presented threesome. Correct.

I have a question, though. So, like, that's an extreme red flag, right? Extreme. Extreme. But what about for people in relationships that don't have that extreme red flag? But what you went through of someone leading a double life on you is probably one of the most horrendous and traumatizing things. Horrific betrayals.

So, you know, it is horrific betrayal. It's funny. Lou, Olivia, you and I share a mutual friend who wrote a book about it. Her name is Manon, Matthews. She's a dear friend of ours. Is that what her book's about? Well, it's not just about that, but she's very vocal about, and Ray. You've told me the story.

She, strangely, after all this happened, happened to move in downstairs for me. And we became fast friends. And her marriage was a lie. He lived a double life. Now, not in the same way, but it was really interesting. And she's an incredible woman. Big time. I mean, I'm in love with her.

I remember you telling me this story that he will tell the story a little. Basically, like, she got married to the love. of her life. She was like, this is my person. And he was like, met families, the whole thing. And it turned out that he was, I think it was like two weeks in her marriage. She found out that he was like messaging other women saying, yeah, I don't love her. I love you. And I don't love Manon. And I mean, it's a lot more than that, obviously. But like, at the end of the day, he was a con artist is what it truly was. But when she shared that with me, we shared these stories. And I was like, well, it felt damn good to hear that from somebody. Because I look up to this girl and she's so incredible. And like,

I was like, okay, because I was so hard on myself. Like, how could you love somebody like this? You know? And I still am hard of myself about that. You got duped? I got duped. I did get duped. But there were so many red flags.

So I'm like, did I get duped or did I ignore the signs? Ignore the signs because I was in a drunken state. I was in my addiction and making poor choices. I will say, though, men or whoever in general who suffer. who suffer from, let's say, narcissism or manipulation, you know, or leading double, whatever it is. In my experience, like, what I've witnessed is nothing really comes out until after they already have you. Yeah. Not the true shit.

Yeah, they get you hookline. No, you're right. You're right. So I don't know how many red flags there were with your dude. You know, yes, that first night, it was pretty bad. Right? That was a bad one. First impression.

So after that first night, he ended up coming over the next night for dinner. I, like, cooked dinner for us. And I'm like, way few material, you know. So it's like he saw that clearly. And he was like, oh, shit, I got to get in on this, you know. And he hooked in to me. And like, he's charming. And like you said, he didn't tell you about his poor career.

Until you were already. We were already in a relationship. That's my point. Basically. Yes. Right. We were already together. We had said, I love you.

And then he told me that. Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't honest with me from the. beginning. If he had told me, hey, just so you know, this is like what I do. Did you cheat on him? So you never cheated on. The one boyfriend you really didn't cheat on was the one making porn the entire relationship. The irony. Yeah. That is very interesting. If it wasn't for the story coming out, what do you think the other signs were that would have

woken you up to the fact that something was going on behind your back? Many bladder infections. Oh, that's a good one. Reoccurring. Bladder infections. I mean, I think eventually I would have, especially in sobriety, I think getting sober saved me from that relationship because you can see suddenly when you couldn't before. Already, if I'm being completely honest, I was four months sober. Our relationship was falling apart four months into my sobriety. Like my foot was kind of one way out the door already.

You were waking up to all the things. I was already. That he was so self-involved. Yeah. I was like, you know what? this isn't, it wasn't working. And I could see it. And I was starting to see that more and more clearly. So, yeah, I remember when you first got sober, he would pour a glass of wine when you got home and offer you wine and stuff and wasn't. He wanted me to take fanics. He wanted to keep you of sleep for me to be sober.

No. Yeah. I remember talking to Olivia when you were getting sober and we could not stand him. We wanted you out of this relationship before we knew he was still doing porn. Yeah. And I remember Olivia saying, don't worry. We don't have to do anything. Her getting sober is going to do it all. The little Yoda over here. Gulu. Here's what I will say. For our listeners, if your friends and family don't like your boyfriend, he's not the right guy for you. There's a reason. There's a reason. There's always a reason. It's special, yeah, like your friends and your family and the people that love you the most always want what's best for you. If you've cultivated, which I have in my life, very beautiful, incredible friendships. And I'm very close to my family and my friends. I've cultivated incredible

relationships with these people. And nobody that loved me and wants me to succeed wanted me with this person. So that is a huge learning lesson for me. I've learned a lot from that. And the next person that comes into my life, better fucking get along with the people in my life. Absolutely. I met somebody already. I already met a guy. And I couldn't really picture him with my friends in family too. Oh, it's the biggest thing. It is. And as you get older, like for me, I'm like, you have to be able to be best friends with my brother. That's like

the biggest thing for me. You know, in the past I've brought dudes around my brother and they just like, no. Which doesn't make sense. No, my brother's like the easiest person in the world, the easiest person to get along. No, everybody loves my brother. Yes. And so when it doesn't really mesh, it makes me

like really reconsider things. I'm a non-inful. I'm a little different than that way, though. Like, you know, I go against the green sometimes. So, like, sometimes to the point where it's, like, detrimental for me. So, like, I'm like, oh, you don't like him? Well, I'm going to show you, you know, and like go ahead and go the opposite direction. My gauge is if you get along with my brother, this is bad news for me.

Yeah. He's like, we're going to jail. Yeah. But it does speak to the point that you want the people closest to you. You want them to be able to fit in to your life. I will not. Yeah. I will not. Yeah. I've had a hard time in the past few relationships that I've been in the serious relations that I've been with, to be real, the past three serious relationships. My friends were not

on board. And I know what it boils down to, at least for me with your relationships and with all my friends' relationships. Why do I keep doing it? Well, no, no. I'm not saying I know what it boils down to for you. I'm in therapy for that. I mean that when you talk about fitting in, in my mind that used to mean that you had to fit in and be like and like the same music and dress the same and like the same things and like that's what I used to think that my dude would have to beat. And then as I got older, I realized it's a value system. It's a value system. Who are you? What do you believe in? What do you care about? What do you stand for? Are you a good person? Are you a good human being? Do you have integrity? Are you dope? Yeah. Are you a good person? Exactly. Absolutely agree. And then they fit in.

those kind of people fit in because it's not about anything other than those inside qualities. It's true. And that's why we all love Jeff because we all show the same value system. And that's why we didn't love the dude because our value system. And this guy, none of them aligned. No, that's true. And he wasn't an outward asshole. Like he wasn't mean, he wasn't rude. He wasn't abusive.

He wasn't those things that typically people would be like, he's bad news. Right. It's just his value system before we knew about the porn and the cheating was off for us. It set off a signal inside that was like, mm. No. Not aligned with that in any way, shape, or form. His value system was shit. It was shit.

Let's be real. Sad. It is sad. It makes me sad. And this is my problem. It makes me sad. And I'm like, oh, like, you still feel sad about him. I still feel sad about it.

Yeah. Because you see, here's the thing is you see that little boy in the same. I see a broken little boy in him. Because that's true. And that's my biggest problem. Yes, it's a beautiful quality to be able to see, you know, these things and people. But I have to put myself first. And there's a broken little girl in me.

Like, what about her? Yeah. She deserves that same love as this broken little boy that you're looking at. So that's. But yeah, I do still feel, of course I feel sad for him. He lost me. And he lost what could have been a beautiful life. I mean, I think even with the whole values in something,

I thought being with me would make him a better person. I know that sounds so ridiculous. Right. But you always will have that. But I thought my love. I'm like a romantic and I'm just like altruistic and I'm like a rescuer. So I thought like my love will. I'll change this person.

Yeah. But it's not the case. I thought my love would be enough. People don't change unless they want it. Correct. Right. My brother said something that I loved is he's like, you know, with girls, they meet a guy. and they're like, how can I change him into what I want him to be?

Yep. And dudes meet a girl and they're like, how can I keep her this cool? Yeah. You know? We always get chie and... Shave and drop in the truth songs. Just freaking... And it's the truth.

It's like... It's so true. They just want us to be the first version they're introduced to, which is, you know, the coolest, best potential. Anything. Yeah. And then that changes. And then it's reversed with them.

Yeah. It's true. I feel better. It's like a therapy session because I've been emo today. I'm trying to give you high fun. I do, as you both know, suffer from depression. I'm a strong believer in antidepressants. I'm on antidepressants that have saved my life. Word. But, you know, that depression does come and go. Seasonal, what have you. It's the holidays. Blah, blah, blah. But I was down today. I cried. This morning, you know, I cried on my way here in the car. And talking about this, and I even said to your mom, Ray, I was like, this is going to be like a therapy session will be good. Because it's hard to talk. You know, you're sharing something really vulnerable.

And like, it's, I judged myself really hard for this. But it's been really nice to talk about it for millions of people to hear. If we're lucky, right? You know what I think, Lou? And I think about this, like, when I lead a meeting, it's like, I hope that me sharing this will get through to somebody else and help them. That's the goal here. So that's why I'm even talking about it because that's what I have to gain from talking about this. I'm not trying to scorn. That's why I'm not using a name. I'm not going to say who this person is. I'm not going to

rely. But like I know that there's other people out there that are probably in situations similar or who knows what. Imagine how many people like when my boyfriend was doing porn. Well, you know, I'm just saying. Or like being deceived. Just not being honest with themselves. Or not being honest with themselves. Or stuck in addiction or what have you. Or, you know, all these things. Not, you know, being honest with themselves.

I mean, the bottom line is at the end of the day, I wasn't honest with myself either. Right. Right. And saying, hey, this guy doesn't have the same value system as you, Leah. Like, you damn well know that. Yeah. And I chose to just. Well, whatever, you know.

I also think you talking about it, neutralizes it for you because I think that there's been this guilt and shame as if you did this to yourself. Yeah. And I'm not holding you in the seat of the victim because I feel like that's not a seat. I'm not a victim. No. However, you were duped. Yeah. And there is that little girl inside that could use some real love and compassion. Which is what I'm working on now. Exactly. Like it's not your fault. Yeah. And yes, you could have opened your eyes before, but you didn't. And that's a okay, I've got you now, you know? Yeah.

And you're saying it takes away that guilt and shame. Yeah. No, it's true. It's true. I really do hope that it does help somebody. It's beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful thing.

Okay, so infidelity, you're a fan. Infidelity. No, I'm not a fan. Not my thing. Not, definitely not my thing. I'm Switzerland. No, it's definitely not my thing. Yeah.

Not a fan of infidelity. No, here's what I will say. about infidelity. It can be very exciting. It's like a drug. That's what. Well, it's that whole forbidden fruit, right? Yeah.

Like that aspect of it. Yeah. Like for me being on the side of like being the one who is being. Oh, I've been. Yeah. The cheater. I've never been a cheater, but I've been the mistress. Oh, that's right.

Yeah. Oh, you've been a mistress. That's right. You have been a mistress. So that does that, so where do we stand on that? Does that count as like you are a participant in infidelity? I know, but still. No, I was a participant.

I was also drinking. I was also, you know, really deeply cared for the human a lot. Yeah, sure. It was a very painful experience, but I have been on the other end of it. But is that still considered cheating if you're not the cheater? You know what I mean? Like, where does that land in the world of infidelity? Right.

I mean, that's a different, I mean, he was the one being unfaithful. She was the one, but I was participating. But she was a participant. But she was an act, a knowing, She was. Yeah. Active participant. Mm-hmm.

I resisted it. I mean, let's be real. Yeah. No, sure. I mean, I resisted it. I get it. I feel like. A tremendous amount of guilt and shame over it.

It's a gray, like there are so many different aspects to infidelity, right? Right. Like there's so many different aspects like being the mistress. Like I always tell Jeff, I'm your wife and your mistress because there's part of that. Very sexy. That's very sexy. Yeah. And like it's almost

Exciting. It's exciting. It's almost hard to move into the position of the wife and not get to be the mistress. Yeah. Right. You know, because the mistress gets the kind of. Yeah.

Shiny new object. Yeah. And then you get to keep living your life. Yeah. I mean, doesn't sound like a bad. No, I know. Right. You know, situation.

Until you fall in love with the person and then they won't leave the wife for you. Yeah. No, it's brutal. Out in the rain crying. It's brutal. You're in the little, like, apartment when the wife's, like, you know. In the big fucking house. Yeah.

With the big fucking ring. I'm thinking of Mad Men. Like, I just go back to Mad Men. I remember watching it being like, and I was watching it with Jeff. And I was like, it's kind of fun being the mistress. You know? Remember when John Hamm was God? Oh, yes.

We got to have John Hamm on because we've got a story for him. Oh, my God. John Ham was God. Well, can't we tell it? Would you rather wait for John Hamm? Let's wait for John. Rob, do we wait for ham? Yeah.

Wait for him. We got to have a connection there somewhere. I know one. He could be a poinster. Oh, I should. I'm just kidding. But just to clarify, I was in my early 20s, they were not married. I know.

It wasn't a thing. I know. Hey, this is a judgment-free circle. We are just talking. However, listeners, we don't know if they will be judging or not. Well, for sure. Yeah. But you put yourself out there.

You put yourself out there to be judged, right? I mean, that's what we're doing. Just being honest. Yeah. Well, this has been a real experience. Yes. It's been fun. Okay, so fuck Mary Kill.

Yes. Go. Oh, boy. Fuck Mary Kill. Let's go. Who's answering? Me? You.

Oh, okay. This is fun. You got this. I do. Come on, Lou. Ray Leota. Oh, Ray Leota. Robert De Niro, Dustin Hoffman.

They're all like similar. Sure. Okay. Mary Dustin. Duh. Duh. Fuck Leota and kill De Niro, I guess. Ooh, ouch.

Well, this was what we do. This is basically just us on a Friday night. Leah, thank you for being here. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being willing to talk about everything. Reverse cowgirl, especially. Love you.

Love you. Love you. Love you. That was a hate gum podcast.