Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Lauren Mayberry

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

Lauren Mayberry of CHVRCHES joins Rachel and Olivia this week for an honest conversation around her career and how she became an accidental singer, her thoughts on the MeToo movement and relationship insecurities. The broads discuss the downfalls of people-pleasing, mother-shaming horrors, “crying into cats” and more. Enjoy!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yellow, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast on HBO Max, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to broad ideas.

Today, I am so excited to speak to this human. Lauren Mayberry, she honestly, I think she's like the cutest thing on the planet. I'm such a fan of hers. She is the vocalist and percussionist of the Scottish pop band churches and actually, Rob, you introduced me to this band

and I'm forever grateful. So thank you for that. Oh, you're welcome. I'm so excited that she is here to speak with us today. latest album was Screen Violence with churches. She's on tour this summer. Her U.S. dates are starting at the end of July in New Orleans, one of my favorite cities. Go get tickets. They'll be playing at the Hollywood Bowl, which I really hope that we get to go this summer. People, we'll go. We'll go. Everyone welcome the lovely, talented, sweetest Lauren Mayberry.

these thoughts are swirling round and round inside to join us on this journey as we take a little ride We'll talk about dogs and kids and things We'll talk about chicks and tampon strings We'll talk about boys that are me Because people die

We're so happy that you agreed to come and talk to us Yeah, thank you. It's nice to be outside and talk to humans Yeah Isn't it? Yes. Not that my partner and cats don't count, but after this length of time, I'm like, we've said everything. There's nothing. There's nothing left to say.

We just wait for a new TV to come on and we're like, we can talk about that. Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah, you're so right. How long have you been in your relationship? Like three and a half years. So we had a good run of time before in the before. Yeah, right.

But yeah, I guess more than half of it has been in this time. So, yeah. still like each other, so that's helpful at this point. That's a good sign. Yeah. Right? I think it's really been a good trial for relationships and everything during the pandemic and COVID.

I was in a relationship that did not make it because of COVID. Good to know that. You're like, good to know that now. It was honestly a blessing. I was like, thank you, pandemic for getting me out of this. Yes. You see the true sense of a person in these times, I think. Unfortunately, I think for my partner.

that just means a lot of me crying in different parts of the house. So he has to deal with it. But that's okay. He's an very like upbeat looks on the bright side kind of person. And I'm like, oh, interesting, right? How are you doing that? Yeah, I think he maybe, he was falsely advertised. He was like, oh, she seems nice.

And I'm like, little does it do you know? You're like, that's my voice. It just sounds that way. And I'm like, he didn't read the lyrics before you go into this. Yeah. You know, no, there's a mistake. They don't come from nowhere. There has to be.

But yeah, I don't know. The pandemic brain is extra strange, I think. Yes. There was a point I was sitting with the, we got some adopted pandemic cats. I was sitting with one of the cats on the couch. And then it was just like, she will also die. I was like, teary eyed about it. And he came into the river and was like, what's happening?

I left you like here five minutes ago. And you were telling me what you're going to do with your day. And now you're crying into the cat. And I was like, I don't know. I'm crying into the cat. So, and he's a very bad. Alan's person who doesn't struggle with these things. Those kind of people fascinate me.

I'm trying to learn. I don't understand. I'm always like you don't feel the death coming. Like what is that? And I've asked him and he was like, well, there's no point in worrying about it because you can't change any of it. So you might as well just do something else with your day. And I'll say, hmm.

I wonder I did see that. He has mindfulness, but he doesn't have to do any of the work. The work on it that everyone else is doing. I'm like rubbing headspace through my phone on my head every day. And he just wakes up and. How that? That's pretty remarkable. I mean, did he have a really easy childhood or something?

No. No. We want to talk to him. Yeah. I should call him and get him to come around and be like, teach us. This is a different podcast. We're like, teach us how to just not be sweating. Right.

We're recruiting you. And this is totally taking a turn. Yeah. I think I was a person that was more like that. You were. pre-pandemic. You feel it can confirm. Yes, you can confirm for me.

We've been best friends forever. So we know each other very well. Been through a lot. But yeah, pre-pandemic, I'd say that I was definitely more of that kind of person. Like, it doesn't not think about the dark stuff. And, you know, but then the pandemic hit and other things hit. And I was hit. And so, you know, you just look at things in a different way.

Yeah. Now. You know, and every day I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I have one kid. Like, nothing can happen to her. Like, is she going to go to school and, like, fall off? But, you know what it is? It's scary.

It's just like a fear. Yeah, it must kick into extra gear. Like, mother brain must go, like, ah. Oh, yeah. As a whole other level. Yes. Like, you have mother cat brain, but like, imagine. I mean, yeah, as much as I love them, I know they are not human children.

I understand. Yeah, you do. Are you sure? Yeah. Every so often, I'm like, you're not, you're not, are you thinking thoughts? I don't know. And I think, you know, I'm not one of these people that say, I'll dress up. my cat and call it baby or no.

Right. So, yes. But yeah, I can imagine. I don't know. I don't know if human beings are designed to be surrounded by this much death and trauma. Yeah. Like,

that's why we distract ourselves with everything else because we don't want to think about the human condition and you can't, especially the last couple of years, you can't. There's no, there's no distraction anymore, which in some ways is good because we're reckoning with these existential issues, but it's a bit much. Yeah. It's a bit much.

Yeah. Absolutely. I heard the other day this guy was like an expert talking about. people and their purpose and why they have such fulfilled lives. And one of the things that they did every day is they remembered every single morning that they're going to die. So instead of avoiding it, it was like bringing it in and facing not every day. And like, how would you live if you were facing not every day? Which is almost like in a weird way, I think what the pandemic has like a silver lining that it's had is that you are facing those things.

For sure. I mean, some days I'm like just buried under the doom of it. But then I do think in other ways it's made me make different kinds of decisions about things, especially like work things or creative things or people-pleasy things. Yeah, especially as women. I'm sure you guys already know this. I feel like there's a lot of like you push as far as you think you can push to get what you want but without pushing too far and you're still trying to be agreeable enough that when you come back you can still negotiate further. And I just like, There's certain things in life where I'm like, I don't want to do that because that will upset that person or that will just make that harder for me in the long run and I don't want to do. But then I look at kind of what you're just saying. I'm like, well, why you only get to do this once? So it's strange. Obviously, you don't want to be an unkind, terrible person. Right. But I look at certain things. I'm like, deliberately not done, which don't really affect other people. But I just don't want them to be annoyed at me or upset or any of those things. I'm like, this is silly. We're going to die. People pleased myself to death. That's right. Yeah, the people-pleasing thing is real. And I've always been that way. Until recently, it was kind of all of the things coming at me at once. Forced me to have to just be like, fuck all you people. But you know what I mean?

Like, you have to kind of learn how to put yourself first and not do that all the time. But it's hard. Yes, because we're trained not to. Right. And even, yeah, I don't know. I think it was weird because the narrative around the band has always been. strong feminist this and strong feminist that. I'm like, that is true to a degree, but I'm like,

you guys don't, you don't know. Like, there's only, you know, I can say certain things, but we're all still negotiating all the time and everything is in negotiation. And I think you can say fuck all these people with kindness. You don't have to be an asshole. Absolutely. But we're taught that you doing that is a terrible thing to do

and you shouldn't do that. Yeah. So I guess that's the balance I'm hoping to strike more of in life, be like, you can be assertive in a calm and kind manner and be like, that's just how it's going to be. Yeah, it's integrity. And then deep breathe into a bag. Yeah.

After you've done. Right. And I feel like the people that love you, like that genuinely want the best for you and love you, like the more you've stepped out of people pleasing, the happier it makes the people that love you. We're like, yeah. Say it. Like, own it. Interesting. Yeah.

And there's probably a good way to weed out people who are not here for it. Right. Sound like I'm on, you're not here for the right reasons. The Bachelor or something. But I'm a mark for all those like self-help memes that pop up on the internet Alma was like, so profound. Even though I don't follow any of those accounts,

they still present me with the... You know, and I'm like, they know me. The algorithm knows me. But there was one that I saw recently, which was like if other people are more upset by your successes and things you're celebrating, then they should be, then that's it. I was like, oh, oh, oh.

And then I can look at certain things in life where I'm like, oh, yeah, that was a nice thing that happened to me. made you Matt, which is not how this should be. But then you apologize and you're like, oh, I must have made them feel uncomfortable. I can explain away any kind of bad behavior. If I try hard enough. Yeah. I'm like, no, that's their stuff. And that's not fine. Right. But I say all this, but I'm not doing it. I don't believe it. You're doing something. You wouldn't know all of this if you weren't trying to. I'm studying. I'm like, wow, fascinating. Fascinating. I may try that one day.

Right. But I think it's like a successful woman, you know, and I think it kind of comes out in certain relationships if you're dating, let's say you're dating a man and, you know, some of them. All of us speaking hypothetically. Hypothetically, you know. But depending on how they feel in their own manlyhood, whatever you want to say. But, you know, it's hard for some of them to accept that I've found. Yeah. And if anything, I feel like some of the most extreme examples of. had of that in personal relationships are when on paper that man is much more successful than me. And I'm like, why are you being weird about this? I am not threatening to you in any way. It doesn't make sense. But I think it's about feeling invalidated or something. You can have as much external success as you want. But if still the whole has not been filled, then it's still going to feel bad. And yeah, there's definitely been times where we've been at things where I'm like, why we're playing high up at this festival? Why am I in my phone trying to make sure that this person feels okay about their day. I have stuff to do it. But that's after 45 minutes of locating somebody

via a text and be like, your ticket's at the front. I can't come get you right now because I'm literally about to do this. I can't come get you. Yeah. When you zoom out of those moments, you're like, what? Yeah. Why? I would never do that. I would never do that. The only way around. I would figure out my way into the venue and I would watch the thing. Right. But yeah, it's interesting. The insecurity of it. People. Oh yeah. Insecurity of it for sure. Have you ever felt that? Because I mean, I mean, I, think it's natural to feel the feeling, right? Of being like, oh, someone else's success could at moments make you feel shrunken?

And then I think that, like, I know I've experienced that even with Rachel. Like, you know, we've been best friends forever and she rocketed. And it's like there was a part of me that shrunk, which is a blessing because it taught me self-love. But I feel like it's a natural feeling to feel that. but it's what you do with it the next thought. Yes. Yeah. And I feel, I don't think I've ever felt that was partners,

maybe because we live in a society that teaches women are their second anyway. So maybe it never really occurred to me. And I guess I always grew up with like boyfriends that were also in bands. And it just never really occurred to me. I was just excited to be around the scene. But I definitely think as I've gotten older, it's been an interesting thing to have to unpick, especially with other women.

Like if there are other women, in similar jobs or similar positions, I definitely have caught myself being like, oh, I wonder why they got that, and then we didn't. And then I'm like, what? That's a terrible way to live your life. But noticing it and putting the pain in it, I think, is important because otherwise, I think it's a horrible way to live.

But I think it's natural to a degree, especially in a life and industries where you're taught comparison. Oh, yeah. Because it is like, for sure. There's only so much space. Yeah. And there can only be so many jobs and so many festival slots and so many late night slots and blah, la la. You're like, this doesn't, when you zoom out of it, you're like, it doesn't

mean anything about me. And you're like, oh, I'm just making it all about me. This is not, it's not about me. Who knows? It's the same with acting, you know, a similar thing of like getting the role and going up against different people. And I was taught a very important lesson when I was young where I went up for a part and I got very far and I thought I was going to get it. And then they cast someone else. And the girl that they cast literally could have been my twin. You know, So in my head, I'm like, okay, so it's me. You know, like, there's something wrong with me. And it was really hard.

And I had such a hard time with it. I never watched that show. So angry. But then that casting director brought me back in for the first series I got that gave me all the success early on. And I was like, uh, okay. Here's my lesson, you know, and it's part of it. And then you're like, okay, it's not personal.

And there's another path or whatever. And I do believe that. I try to stick to it. It's hard at times because... Well, acting seems much harder than music in so many ways to me, but because there's not really a one music job that we're auditioning for and we're getting chosen, you know? Yeah.

Like, there's a certain number of opportunities in terms of like billings and whatever. I think that must be very difficult to go into a room and you're like, we know how many roles are on this call sheet. And we know there's what and there's all of us and we're going to hunger games to fight out for this. And yeah, there must be a lot of work involved in removing oneself from that headspace. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it for like, especially young, you know, anyone. Yeah, but Rachel also, I've said this forever. The things that I had to literally delve into

therapy and school and everything to learn came natural to her. Like she really had a way of not taking things as personally and like knowing, you had this natural way of being like, then there's something better and there's, you know, if that's not mine, I'm going to get something better and you are a natural manifester and all of that stuff really did come easy to you mentally. Okay. Born wise. Born very wise. Well, I think her mom had a little bit something to do with it. Yes. Mental health was a big, well, I don't know if you'd even call it that, but she was very spiritual growing up and stuff. So I probably helped put a spin on it. But how did you, did you always, you know, when you were growing up, did you know this is what you wanted to do?

Um, yes and no. Like I was talking to our manager the other day about just thinking about things to do and like the coming year and what the fuck that's going to be. And he was making a joke about how he's like, yeah, it's just a singer in a band that never wanted to sing in a band. And I'm like, yeah. I don't know how we got to hear. But I played piano and drums as a kid and I always was writing and playing in bands. But I was never the singer in any of the bands. I would do like backing vocals and sing as part of the writing, but not. I don't know. In some ways, I suppose subconsciously I must want to be the center. of attention, but I've never consciously been that person in any of the dynamics. And it kind of happened by accident almost. The band I was in before churches, I was playing drums in initially. And then I had a better drummer, came along. Yeah, I remember being in a rehearsal and my friend, who's the other singer in the band, he had brought his friend who I knew to be a good drummer in other bands. And I was like, why are we getting that guy to play keyboards? This makes no sense. We should just swap. So we swapped. And then they suggested I do some singing. So, I was like, okay. And then when I met Ian, he was like, oh, she's a singer in a band. So it was already in his head decided. So. But even with Jurch's, initially it was just a writing thing that Ian and Martin were doing together trying to write songs to sell to other people. And they asked me to come in and sing guide vocals on it for pitching. And then they were like, hmm, we should make it a band. So it was a bit of a happy accident. Yeah, music's always been around. But it wasn't like, I think secretly when I was 15, I was like, I want to be David.

girl, but I don't think I actually thought that it was going to happen. But I guess it's interesting to look back on because all the times where my other female friends would be like, I want to be with the ex person in the band. I want to be in that band. I want to be in the band. So yeah, I think that it was always hiding somewhere. But I think in a way having come to singing, not thinking about being a quote-unquote singer, helped my voice end up the way that it did for better or worse. I think if I'd overthought it and be like, oh, this is going to be my character for my whole life. I should create a certain kind of voice. And I didn't do that really because I was like, I'm just singing in the background or singing in a way to get the point across for the other person

to sing it. So, yeah, whenever Americans are like, why do you sing in this accent? I'm like, it just is the accent that's coming out in my face. Yeah. This is how it is. Yes. But you originally, you studied law, right? It did, yeah. I did a law degree. And then I did a post-grad thing in journalism. Wow. I mean, I don't know if it helps me now necessarily. It makes me more cynical in interviews, probably, when people are asking things. Oh, so journalism.

And you didn't research. Not you guys. But sometimes when you're in promo, I'm like, oh, God. Right. Like, this is what we're doing. But, yeah, so I was like a production assistant PA when churches got signed. Oh, wow. Yes, that's where I'm like, always be nice to everybody on every set.

Oh, my God. Because you don't know. You don't know. You don't know. And one of the first churches videos we did, the DP on that had been a DP on a bunch of whiskey adverts commercials that I had done. He was like, I knew you from somewhere. I'm like, yeah. I was the one bringing people cold coffee, which they didn't enjoy.

Because I read the sheet wrong and I took it to the wrong place. Oh, no. Yes. That's a really tough job, though. And I will say, I am, well, I'm nice to everybody on set. But like, especially PAs, because they have to do everything. And you see everything. You see everything.

I was like, you have some secrets, I'm sure. I have very specific secrets related to the Scottish advertising industry. Everyone wants to know. And I'm glad to have had those experiences because I met a lot of people in and around entertainment where I'm like, oh yeah, you never did bar jobs or PA jobs or restaurant jobs. And I think you can tell, I don't know, you tell a lot about somebody from the way they talk to a waiter. I think you tell everything. I could not agree with you more.

That is one of my biggest things. I should have left a lot of dates based off of that. And yet I did not. No, I know, right? That's the other lesson. Yeah. I love watching people that are like, they'll treat the bus boy the same that they would treat anyone that can further their career in any way.

And kindness, it's for everyone. It's not just, you know, when someone's going to get something for you. Yes. Which is, you know, a lot in L.A. Why are you in L.A.? Well, based on why are we talking about, you're like, I shouldn't be here. Well, I guess I lived in New York for a couple years just because I was like, I've got a visa.

Why would I not want to try things out? And then I thought, I know this sounds very negative of me, but there was a time period where I was conscious that the band won't last forever, even if I wanted to. It's not going to. And I was like, what am I doing? I have to figure out what other things I can do at the same time and just start figuring that out.

So I was like, oh, maybe LA is a lot more focused on writing for other people. Yeah. So came here with a view to being here for six months and then met boyfriend. He plays in a band here, but he does a lot of session playing for other people. So now we're here. And then a pandemic happened. Right. So we're here here.

We don't go to anywhere. So, yes, I mean, very grateful for the sunshine. And I feel like it may not be my forever home, but I've learned a lot from it. But yeah, I used to have a trickier relationship with L.A. when we would come for work. because I think having spent more time here I'm like you can find your pocket and you don't have to be involved in that aspect of it

but whenever we came for work I was just like I hate everything about all of this because it seems the antithesis of what I think creativity is and should be and then when you're doing those hand shaky shoozy things I just I hate this or even when you go to the pub you can't just go to the pub and my partner is English

so at least we have certain like shorthand but I was like nobody can hang They can. It's like every two seconds, it's like, oh, who recorded that for you? And who made that? And who did you write that with? And I'm like, oh, guys. Like, there's no small talk.

But I think that I've definitely found a version of that, which is calmer. And then I guess we didn't go outside for two years. Right. Yeah. But I find living, you know, out this way, it's a different. Oh, I grew up. We both grew up in L.A. But in the...

Sorry, I slide off. Sorry. Oh, no. We're very aware of all of its, you know, downfalls. But we grew up in the valley, which. is also a little different. But for me having to go into LA or the city or anything like that, it's like, I almost feel like you have to pay me. Yes. It's just a little different and you're not surrounded by all the shit. And like, there's actually people that have a lot of different

jobs this way. And yeah. And it feels like, I like when I'm driving around, I'm like, this could be like a really sunny Gilmore girl's. And it's giving me more of an appreciation for if I do have to go into certain places for work. Like I didn't grow up here to see this stuff on TV. It's like I've kind of have come around to the, it's a bit while, isn't it? Never thought I would be driving around seeing this on my random Tuesday afternoon. So yeah, but I think when the band first started, we were really lucky that so much stuff was happening around it. But I look back and I'm like, you're a baby. Like I was like 23, 24, a lot younger than my colleagues. Well, not a lot so as bad, but younger than them, the only female. Yeah, I remember thinking a lot of that time period was just

really terrifying. You were really young. That's really young. That's like this. same age you were when you got 21. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's young. Like you're... At the time I thought I knew everything. Of course. And then as things were happening, I was like, I know nothing. Help. And I think that was what was interesting. I feel like I look at it now. Whenever people tag us in clips from that time period, I look at that. I'm like, oh no, she's just so worried. And it's interesting because I think I postured to everybody that I knew I was doing.

And I was like, no, people aren't going to talk about me like that. And this is what's going to happen. And I'm like, it's just so fear-based. Whenever I see any interviews from that time, I'm like, you look like a tiny little baby. And why were all these men talking to you like that? Or letting, like, it was just up to me to do it for myself. And I don't know. I work with really nice encouraging sport of people. But I think now, because the band's been like, we've had a lot of 10-year anniversaries recently.

So I think everyone's reflecting on things. It's been nice to have conversations with them where they said they wish they'd acknowledge certain things more or view them differently. in hindsight. And I think as a 34-year-old looking at that, I'm like, I would be like, move, move, take the microphone off. Like, just scoop like younger me out of the room. But, you know, it's still learning. But that's the experience that taught you that. Like, you wouldn't be who you are today had you not gone through that experience. And it seems like you opened up a lot. You really gave yourself a voice outside of just your music. And we're talking back to kind of misogyny and all of that that was being directed at you, right?

Yeah, I guess it was interesting to see how people interpreted it, because I remember at the time just doing a lot of having panic attacks and toilets and things like that. But then when I would talk to people about it, I don't know, I was raised, not in a vocally feminist household, but it was never really a question. It was just like, if you work hard, you will see rewards from that. And then, yeah, as a teenager, obsessed with Kathleen Hannah. and all those things. So it just seemed like the thing to do.

So finally, I was like, I am doing the thing that I'm supposed to do because I'm very good at doing the things I'm supposed to do, which I'm glad that I did. But yeah, I feel like it was like creating a persona and then having to live up to that. And I'm glad that I did do that. But even then, sometimes I'm like,

when I write the fictional memoir, people are going to be shocked about certain things. But yeah, I'm grateful to have had the chance to do that. And I think it's been interesting in the last, five-ish years because around the third church's album there was definitely a sense

when we were trying to get promo stuff people were like but it's not edgy when she talks about that anymore because like everything else is kind of cut up with that and I remember feeling a bit frustrated by that

because I was like well what shall I do then and I guess that's the thing of being lucky enough to have a career that's lasted longer than like one record is how do you make yourself exciting to people consistently

and can you do do that? Should you do that? I don't know. And I guess that's like how much. And I do think especially for female artists, the pressure to reinvent is so much greater than it is on bands full of guys. You can make the same record again and again and again. And not that women can't. I don't know. It just feels like there's extra, I feel like you have to just earn something a little bit more every time. And yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting because I don't think I've ever thought about it. But when you say it, you know, you look at all these female artists and they really are. It seems like trying, like, now, Taylor Swift is like obviously a very broad example, but it always seems like she's

trying to do something or, you know, reinvent herself. And I mean, I think everyone, really, if you really look at it, but you do see it more with female artists. Totally. Yeah. I think that one of the things that's probably super annoying, and this could be my projection, I don't know if it is, The attention you got for that wasn't a gimmick, right? It's like you were being genuine and that came across as edgy. So they're like, okay, we want that, but now that's not edgy anymore. So now construct something that is. Yes.

Yeah. I guess you're kind of beholden to whatever the media narrative is or what the topic du jour is or whatever. And I remember that being in a radio interview, just like a standard promo thing, we went in, there was competition winners, you'd play a couple songs, you do the radio interview, you leave. And during that, the guy was listing off the list of questions. And he was like, what are your me too moments? And then ask that as if that's like, and I was like, almost fell off my chair. And I was like, I don't know that you're taking this seriously if that's the way that you're asking people these things. You're like, what are your me too?

You're like, this is the first one right here. But this is 2018, so he's got a ticket off his list of things that he has to ask. And I was like I don't really know if it feels like you're engaging with the subject matter in the correct way. That is crazy. And even like somebody a few months ago sent me a link to the, that we did a Google talk once around the first record. And I watched a bit of it. They sent me like a timestamped bit. And I'll say, oh, I don't remember feeling like that was a unpleasant experience.

I remember being like nervous and out of my comfort zone, but I don't remember thinking this is fucked out. But then when I look back in it and like, yeah, it is a room full of mostly men and they're asking a 24 year old who's got shaky hands. Like, well, somebody says, they're like, well, what you're talking about? Doesn't it seem like you, what do you want? You want an emotional bodyguard? And I was like, no. I'm saying that maybe the anonymous nature of the internet and the companies, the websites that you've helped set up. is giving people access to say really incredibly cruel and like violent things to people,

especially to women. Like now I would be like, I don't know if that's on me. I think that's on you. And you don't have to ask it in such a glib and sarcastic way. You're clearly not taking it seriously. But at the time I was like, well, no, I don't, I don't think so. I just, you know, it's not we have to find a way to deal with threats of rape and death on the internet.

But I look at it and I'm like, man, nobody said it. anything. Nobody, like, I didn't even blink because that was just only like 10 years ago, whatever, but it's a different conversation. Right. I'd like to see you interview them. Yeah. You know, and again, I'm like, 34-year-old me would be like, give me that. Where they're like, no. But it's interesting because in theory it's not that much time to have passed, but I do think sometimes I'll make nothing has changed because people still ask me the same dumb questions and they still get talked to the same way and treated the same way by But you have different answers.

But yeah, there are different answers and certain things are just not appropriate or accepted. And other people would be like, hey, bro, don't do that. No, maybe. Because they knew people were watching them. Yeah. Not for the right. Yeah. Yeah.

So. Wow. I can't get over that Me Too checklist. That is just crazy. That's insane. It's like, what are your Me Too moment? I was like, let's go around the room and ask all the guys, shall we? Yeah.

So I don't think. And I was like, again, it's like, I was like, you're not taking it seriously because you have no idea what any woman in this room has been through. So you don't understand what you're actually asking. And that's all, like, every time I see one of these days on the internet where I'm like, yes, again, women have to come forward and re-traumatize themselves by sharing their trauma on the internet, their stories of abuse, their stories of abortion, in order to make the point that their lives should be protected or valid, people should care.

But it's always women having to do those things and put themselves back in that position to make it known that it's an issue. And I'm like, hmm. For fun morning, we're having. I mean, we're going for it. I know. But like, yeah, but like. Yeah, but this is what we.

This is what we do. Yeah. Yeah. We want to go there. Yeah. But what are your thoughts on the whole Me Too movement? Like, just as it's been presented, like, let's say in the business or, you know what I mean? Um, I feel like every time a journalist is like, so do you feel like me too has changed

music? I'm like, no. But then that feels overly negative. because I guess you couldn't know this. Maybe we couldn't know this early. I think on a cynical level, I'm like, well, it's changing things insofar as even if people aren't editing their behavior for the right reasons, they're still editing their behavior.

True. When they're visible. So, yeah. I don't know. It will be an interesting journey out of this. And I definitely have friends who have commented on changes they've made to their behavior or things that they have now realized. were maybe not as kosher as they thought that they were.

Right. But it was interesting. I remember having conversations with people around 2017, 2018, where there were certain men. I'm like, oh, you're not getting it. You feel like people are taking things away from you. You're not really understood. And I guess I tried to have a certain level of empathy.

And I was like, no, I just can't. Yeah. I can't. I can't care. And I was like, yeah, but you don't realize that you had 40 years of your life where you got everything really. you have everything. And now in order for other people

to have access, you have to give up a little space. Right, which is like give up what? Being a creep? Yeah. Like, I'm sorry.

Well, I just, I remember a person I knew around that time, she said, talking about all female ghostbusters and be like, oh, what next? What next? And I was like,

why do you care that much that they're all female ghostbusters because they're like, male actors who might not get that job. Like, guess what? There's loads of other jobs. Oh, yeah. For white male actors. You're going to be fine.

Yeah. And I don't know, there was this weird moment where it seemed like people felt that, oh, well, no straight white man can get a job anymore. I'm like, I'm watching TV. I'm like listening to Alternative Radio. I think that just lots of jobs still going. Like, it's maybe just you. Right.

Yeah, I think they'll be a you thing. I don't. And yeah, it was just interesting to get. that to see that through. Because to me, I was like, nothing about this is negative. This is all positive. If anything, we should be broadening the conversation and making sure it's not just about rich white ladies.

Like, yeah. I was like, well, and that makes sense because why would you not want to see on TV or hear on the radio something that's actually representative of people that make art? Mm-hmm. I don't understand. But I guess that's, we understand why. Right. It isn't like that.

But to me, I don't really see why that's a negative thing unless you're being defensive about it. less. And we make it all about like our guilt and our shame. Right. And I'm like, it's not really for once. It's not about us. Right. For once, guys. Yeah. I have two boys. So that's an interesting place to be as a mother. It's like how do you raise them with the awareness in a way that teaches them how to be men, you know, and respectful ones. And, you know, that kind of awareness. is tricky. It is.

I have a friend who's an actor and he is just terrified. He's like, I, like retracing every step, you know, that he's, he's had and done. And he's like,

I'm just waiting for like something to come out. And he's not like a really famous actor or anything, but he's still like, he's not really terrible. He's not a really terrible. I mean, are we sure?

He's not a real person. Why is he so scared? I mean, it's not famous. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But yeah, like it's just, you know, living in fear every day because they think that they're going to get taken out. But, but, but I don't know. So like, then I'm like, if there's smoke, there's fire.

I feel like Rob. Sitting in the corner. Yeah. I feel like Rob is not retracing his steps in fear. Are you? Do you? No, no, no, I don't. No, because I think he knows who he is and he knows how he treats people and I think it's pretty clear.

Clearly my friend. Clearly your friend may have been a little inappropriate. Like my husband is a doctor and I'm like, if you ever been scared that someone's going to like, me to you. Me to you and say you because, and he's like, no. Like, because he knows he doesn't act inappropriate with people.

Right. And I have a friend who's a producer who he's also like, oh God, I'm going to get me too. You know what I mean? I think you might be hanging out with the wrong crowd. Bunga Bunga parties where they're going. Listen, all my dudes, they're basically rapists. I don't know what to say.

Sorry. No, that's very inappropriate. But, you know, it's just interesting than all these men, like, they're scared. But it's like, well, why are you scared? That's what I'm saying. Why are you not scared until now? Right. Certain things I look back on in my life where I'm like, oh, wish I hadn't done that,

wish I hadn't said that, wish I had recognized certain things. Like, you know, like I was part of a feminist collective or whatever in Glasgow and we would book shows and we had a radio program and all this stuff. And I look at something like that and I'm like, that was a great moment in my life. I learned a lot from that. I got a lot of friends from that. But we weren't super aware of purposely

including trans women in that and making people sure that that was acknowledged and there wasn't a huge racial diversity in the bookings that we were making. And I look at that and I'm like, that was some white feminism you were up to. Right. You didn't know.

I don't know. But yeah. But yeah. Well, I mean, part of me is like, I should have known. But I think that's the moment. It's like, okay, well, you have to take the moment, take the lesson and do something about it rather than getting defensive or going into the guilt of it or the shame of it and then not actually thinking about it. And then I can look at that and be like, okay, well, I'm glad that my approach to feminism, it has changed since 2011. And it should have because that's a long time. You know, I think that's a weird moment. I don't know. I feel like there's this shame around people changing their opinions or changing their beliefs.

And I'm like, well, you shouldn't have the same. Like, a core set of values, sure. But like, you should be changing how you think about things as you learn more and as you grow and as you mature. And yeah. So not just ragging on everybody. I'm saying that I should improve also. But, you know, I know actively I haven't done anything that bad that it would end my career. Right.

But I do think there's a lot. You know, it's a lot of people that have a lot of things in the back of their mind that they're probably worried about. Right. Yeah. No, but it's huge for you to be able to be like, why? I can look at myself and I can see what I need to improve. You know, because that's the biggest part is looking within, you know. And we have a friend who claims she's like super unhappy and she blames it on all the external stuff.

And I'm like, hello. You know, you got to like take your own accountability for. If anything, I go first, but I'm like, I'm unhappy and it's because I'm a piece of shit. And then again, my partner's like, this might not be helpful. It's okay to think that the first time. And then the second thought would be. I forgive myself for the judgment. I place on myself. I forgive myself for being a piece of shit. Yeah. Not for being a piece of shit for the judgment placed on me. Yes. For thinking I'm not a piece of shit. I definitely talking out loud to myself in the house and I'm like, well, that's not nice. We don't say that. Come on. And then I have to like move forward.

Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely, it's not easy. I mean, I feel like, you know, it speaks to us always just being programmed a certain way. And, and from, I don't know. Maybe I wasn't programmed that way. Like, I'm not good enough. But I definitely started out with that mentality. But it wasn't taught. It was just how I was born. I looked to her. I'm like, who am I?

Because I've been examining her for a good 25 years like this. Like, can you tell me who am I? I don't ever think you had the programming. I'm not good enough. That's why, like, for me, I would tag my own team and flag football because I'd rather lose than try. Whereas you... I take everybody the fuck down.

That's it. You know what I'm saying? She never was like, I'm not good enough. It was never... Not in a cocky way, just in a really healthy way. In a competitive way. Super competitive. Beast mind away.

But having that fire, fire in the belly probably helped propel you forward in life. It did. Maybe. It did. I can't believe you tagged yourself out. She tagged yourself out. Isn't that so sad? Yeah.

I know. But you just. like worked through that with... I did just work through that because I was having a problem with my child because he's hard of hearing and he's not speaking and all these things and I would get uncomfortable and instead of letting other people. Yeah, like instead of letting people experience him, I'd be like, he's deaf, he can't talk, he's behind, he's this, he's that. And my therapist was like, it sounds like you're still

flagging your own team. Oh, I know. I was like, oh. Oh shit. Like that is. Like I'd rather be like, I'm going to fail, watch instead of try and not. And it's like, I don't have kids as discussed, but a lot of my friends do and like the shaming of mothers. And like that's been absolutely wild to watch, especially friends who have kids with additional needs. And like, it's weird that other mothers don't have empathy for that experience a lot of the time. And it, yeah, that must be incredibly difficult to process. Yeah. I think sometimes you feel.

feel like the other mothers, like, I've felt like this. Constantly judged. And also, like, it's like this weird protectiveness of them feeling like, I can tell they feel grateful their kid is normal. And then that makes me like. Yeah, but I hate when you say that word normal. Well, I hate it too now, but that's the way it feels inside is like, oh, they're like, oh, thank God. Yeah. It does bring up a lot of that, that shame thing, you know, especially with mothers, because you always feel like you're being judged or my kid, you know, watching TV for hours a day or whatever it is. There's just so much pressure, I think, in this society. And then so many aspects, not even just mothers like in anything.

And it's like, sometimes you just want to like, progress, not perfection. There you go. Well, yeah, and every time I'm on a plane and I see people huffing and puffing about someone's kid crying, I'm like, I don't think anyone wants that kid to stop crying more than that person. Oh my God. There's nothing worse. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

Oh, my God. I just went to Pittsburgh. Yeah. And my kid, he screamed legitimately the whole time. I would scream on a plane if it was socially acceptable, to be honest. Right. We're all trained not to do that. The kids are just like reacting to the only time.

He was trapped in this place and it smells badly in my ears. And then we were sat in front of an autistic young man. So then the autistic young man would scream back every time. time my kid screamed. And he'd go, stop screaming. And I was like, am I in like a nightmare? Like what is going on here? And then everybody's looking at me. Like, like, do something. Like if, like, what we do you? I ended up putting him on my kid and breastfeeding him. And he doesn't breastfeeding anymore. And he doesn't breastfeed anymore. I'm like, suck my boob. I don't care. I don't know. It's like, these are my options. I have to. It's gnarly. Yeah. I remember this is totally random. But I remember Jessica

Alba, we were at an event. And for some reason, we got on the topic of kids and planes and whatever. And she had like a routine down. She's like, you get that car seat on that plane. You buckle them in. They can't move. You put that iPad in front of them. They're screaming. You lock yourself in the bathroom. Even if people are knocking for three hours, you stay in that bathroom with that child. Like, I was like, what? You know, like, so. Like, okay. There needs to be like an honest advice book about this. She can put it on the website. She said, like, help us just teach us your ways. Teach us your ways.

Help us all the rules of early childhood travel. I was like, all right, okay, she's got it locked down. That's amazing. I know. Listen, the iPad comes in handy. We've gone off the rails again. We always go off the rails. We're on airplanes.

How does Calvin do on planes? He has a five-year-old. He's pretty good. He gets the iPad. Yeah. But when he was a baby and younger, he just likes to cuddle a lot. Oh, shit.

Shut off. You're like, oh, cuddling. Oh, that's a problem. Yeah. Oh, poor you. That sounds nice. That's really lucky. And now you're about to bring another one in the mix.

So maybe this will be your... Hopefully it'll be awful. Yeah. Yeah, it's really, oh, man. You're lucky, yeah. Do you want kids? I was thinking about this recently because I was at... I'm off the age where all my friends are having babies and getting married and doing the whole thing.

and it was at the pub the other night and there was another engagement thing and when the person was telling the story I realized I was like I'm not wired right I don't think because other people at the table were like shows the ring and I was like oh yeah the ring like there's certain things it just didn't occur to me and I don't know like it's not something I think about

consciously in terms of I feel like I need this right now I'm missing out on this but then I do wonder sometimes if I just train myself out of that because in the job that I'm in, I'm like, you need to be like, arena, stadiums level to be able to take your kid on tour and be able to do it. Like, you can't, the level that we're at, I'm like, we wouldn't. It can be done. But I just, like, to me, I'm like, there's certain things I would definitely need to sacrifice that I'm not willing to do.

And if you're thinking about it as a sacrifice, it says to me that you're not in like, mommy brain space. Yeah. But I don't know. I was thinking about it when I was in the pub, wistfully over my pint. I was like, I might be wired incorrectly because you're like, I don't care. to see that right. Yeah, I don't know. And I was like, I just, but I don't know. So I can't tell. I'll worry about it later. I'll have an existential crisis about it later. I don't have time. Yeah, you have time. Yeah. But it's actually, it's like practical thinking. You're like, this doesn't make sense. Yeah. I guess if it was something that you really wanted, you would figure it out. But I feel like the reason I'm thinking about it is because I'm 34 and I feel like people think that I should want it. And I have a lot of friends that want it and are doing that. And then I look at that. I'm like, is it bad? I don't. Nope. I sure isn't. I wish more people didn't want it. To be honest. That's the other like judgment thing. Would you say you wish more people didn't want it?

Yes. Because I don't think a lot of people are good parents. I'm not going to lie. And I think a lot of people if they would have actually, who were we talking to? Kristen Kitch. And we're like, do you want kids? And she had like a really thoughtful answer on why she didn't want kids. And I'm like, you should ask her. I'm like, that's the kind of person that should be a parent because they used their brain to think about it instead of just. being like, I'm this age, I should. I should fit into the 34-year-old woman brain. But I think a lot of people have kids and they didn't put any thought into it before. I don't think I put a lot of thought into it. Yeah, because you always knew. It's different when you know.

Yeah, okay. You know, like I didn't put thought into it because it was just like a knowing. This was my announcement for my child that she did an accident. No, I'm just kidding. She was not. my first yeah I wonder and I have friends

that have said that they had no strong feelings about it at all and then one day they woke up and they were like and need it and needs to happen

so that may maybe that'll happen but yeah I've definitely been in relationships with people who really wanted kids and we talk about that to me a lot

and I was like where am I putting this baby am I putting it like on a Pelly case as we're loading into a venue in Boston like what am I doing what am I doing with this

but I don't know and I guess also I think being in the band or working in entertainment, you can be afforded to stunted adolescence for a very long time if you so choose to. So sometimes I'm like, am I doing that? And I'm like, no, I can't tell.

But yeah, I don't know. Whenever me and my partner have spoken about it, we're like, never say never, but it's not something that we'd think about in this moment in time. Right. Because all there is is this moment. Just continue being irresponsible.

That's fine. Yeah. Fine. You know, we'll figure that out later. Do you get nervous when you perform at big venues and stuff? It's just, to me, it sounds terrifying. Less so now than I used to. But at the beginning of the beginning of the band,

it was a lot of peaking in trash cans. Really? Like legitimate pukes? You said panic attacks and bathrooms and things like. Yes. And I think that's just because, again, like our manager says, she's an accidental singer. Because every other band I'd been in, I'd played an instrument and we'd played to about 20 people, max. And we were lucky that church just really kicked off.

But I had no idea what to do with my limbs. I was like, I've never been a front person. I don't know. And I've just felt so conscious, I was like, everyone's looking at me and judging me and thinking that I should be better at this when I've only been doing this for like nine months. And I don't know what I'm doing.

And it took a long time to get out of that headspace. And after the first album cycle, I went home and did like community dance classes in a place in Glasgow. Not because I ever actually really danced on stage, but because I was like, you need to figure out how to be uncomfortable. And then the next bit will be,

better. I don't know. I had a kind of wake up moment when we were on tour once where I was kind of conscious that, I don't know, I think it's kind of selfish to make a live show about you as the performer because yes, it's about you in terms of you're doing it. But for me, the bit that's fully about me is the writing part. Now I see it as well, it's quite selfish to think that people are coming to judge you. And I go to concerts of bands I love because I love those songs and they're meaningful to me in my life. I'm not coming to critique this person. person. Right. So if anything, now I feel like I'm kind of like the compare. They want you to help facilitate their evening of feelings or whatever, you know? And then that just really took the

pressure off kind of because I was like, well, it doesn't need to be perfect. No one's sitting unless they're, you know, an avid pitchfork reader. And then like, well, why would you spend 50 quid on this ticket? That's your problem. But yeah, rest of the time, people just kind of want to have the experience that's about them and their friends and their memories. And I think that's helped with the puking a lot. And puking's very bad to do before singing, by the way. I wouldn't imagine. If you're, yeah, the anxiety of what if I sing terribly and I've never had vocal training,

what will I do? What will I do? And then you vomit. Definitely makes that worse. Oh my gosh. It makes me nauseous thinking about that. Yeah. Yeah.

It wasn't great. But, you know. But that mentality shift though. Yes. I think just, yeah. And doing it enough times to realize that if you forget the words, it'll be fine. Do you forget the words? Yeah.

Like still, for some reason, there's some little bits that just get, there's certain songs every so often I'll just always forget the second verse or something. And I'm like, why? Why? Like, I know. But on the first record, I would start forgetting things and then be freaked out about forgetting things. So I would be thinking like two sections ahead in the song while I'm doing it. And then it got to a point where I was like taping note lyrics on a stage. And I looked at it and I was like,

now there's just like nine songs. And we only have like one record. This is bad sign. But it's just the fear of it. And then the fear of failing and the fear of other people seeing you fail. And I mean like, see, I always knew. And I think that's been a weird like monkey on my back. I'm sure that everybody feels like that.

And that's the imposter syndrome or whatever. But I didn't ever train for this. The guys in the band went to music school. I didn't do that. And when we were doing stuff, I just had this constant feeling. Like, when we were getting signed, there was a lot of the person I was dating at the time

and a lot of people around Glasgow, there was a sense of, she doesn't know what she's doing, she doesn't really deserve this. And I think I just internalized all of that. And then as I started to do very minor, forgivable fuck-ups in shows, I was like,

it's just going to be even more obvious people that I don't know what I'm doing and I shouldn't be here. Maybe when people say things, like I remember being at a house party in Glasgow around that time and hearing somebody say, oh, well, the only reason Ian and Martin got,

in the band is because they need like a pretty girl to sing it for them. And I cried and I left. But that to me is my worst fear because I was like it just completely belittles any creative contribution you have. It belittles anything to do with that. And the partner I had at the time was very not supportive

and in hindsight, very envious. And I was open to hearing those things clearly. And I internalised a lot of that. So then when I'm on the tour, I'm like, everyone knows. Everyone will now know that I am terrible. And then I'm like, yeah, that. It's just brain stuff. It's just brain stuff. Those stories. And deserving. It goes back to like this. I work with young girls. I do spiritual psychology. So I work on the mind and the stories a lot. And one of the

young girls I work with is a singer and she's fucking amazing. And she didn't do anything to become amazing. Like she just has a beautiful voice. And I feel like there's this programming that in order to have success or notoriety or for people to appreciate what you do, you had to do something for it, as opposed to just being deserving because it's your gift. Like, your voice is absolutely incredible. Like, when I hear that, I'm like, that's a gift. Like, you can't do something to get that voice. Like, you could train all you want. I could train every day in my life. I will not have your voice. Your husband gives you singing lessons every occasion. My husband gifts me singing lessons because my biggest thing I would want to be as a singer,

but I'm like basically tone deaf. So never going to happen. Try it in the Scottish accent. They might like that. That's the key. But when I hear you, I'm like, and I was thinking this, like, that's a gift. And I think that we need to give ourselves more permission to accept those gifts. And for it to be okay that you didn't do anything for it.

Like, you know, just like people have gifts of intuition and gifts of creativity or they're business-minded. Like, let's all just. The whole way that you, you know, what you were just explaining is so relatable. And whether it's singing or anything else people do in their lives and thinking, oh, they're going to, they're going to be on to me. Like, I'm not actually that, you know, and it's, they'll find out and they'll take my, my license to sing away. Yeah. I don't know. Right.

Like, there's no real consequence, right? but it's just what the brain does in the story that we tell ourselves. And why do we care so much while other people think? I always say I don't. And I'm like, well, you must. You must be. But like, people please or otherwise, this wouldn't be happening. Right.

But yeah. And I don't know. I guess especially for women, I feel like there's always this extra layer to your achievements. Like when I heard that person say that, I was so hurt by it because maybe it fed into some insecurity that I had. But I was like, if that was the case. any band I'd ever been in at any point would have been able to be successful. I was like, I don't see that.

Like, that's not how that works. Like, it has to be a bit of music. People don't come to the shows because they think I have nice hair or whatever. Like, that doesn't make any sense. But at the time, yeah, you can internalize that. And I just remember when I was still working in media, getting a job interview at the BBC on like a music show and the different guy, many great choices by me, different guy that was dating was like,

oh, well, that must be, because he knew the producer. And he was like, oh, well, yeah. Like, he fancies you, so that's why you got that. And I was like, not because I've done all these other jobs and studied, like, at university and I did all these things. No, can't be that. But that's just, yeah. That was his insecurity.

And there's just, oh, the really easy way to just get you back in your box. Right. And I still see that, like in day-to-day, in interactions I have with people. I'm like, oh, yeah. Even at this point, this far into our career, there's still a way to just quietly, just be like just a little tap to get you back in the zone. So I guess that's

the work. It's trying to politely be like, no. No. Yeah. I don't want to go in the box. I don't want to go in the box. It's not for me. Even though I'm like, hmm, I've lived in there for so many years. Right. Yeah, it's comfort zone. It's quite comfortable. Yeah. Interesting that your boyfriend put it to you like that

because obviously he just didn't. Well, now I can see it and I'm like, well, I was like 21 going, like stop dating older guys. That's some advice I would give to myself. But yeah, and I'm like, well, that was an older guy who was insecure about his position in life. And the way that, obviously, why would you, you know, not that you can't have age gaps in relationships. But in that instance, I'm like, yeah, now, like my current partner has younger sisters. And when I talk to them, I'm like, they're, like, amazing and smart and funny.

But they're 18 and they're 21. Like, when I'm talking to them, I'm like, we've man had no business. You know what I mean? Because when I was 21, I was like, oh, yes, I watch French films and I'm very smart. But, you know, you're 21. There's no reason you should be dating 30-year-olds. There's no, like, you know, unless everyone's situation is different. But I look back on those things.

I'm like, oh, yeah, I didn't think that was messed up at the time. But now, yeah, looking at men of my age, dating girls of that, I'm like, stop it. Right. Please him alone. I know that you look at them now and you're like, they're kids. Oh, yeah. But at the time, we were like, oh, I've got a very smart older boyfriend. And he's a.

Oh, yeah. He's a music lecturer and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, a girl, no, no. But, and then I get you internalize those messages. So when he said that, I act out loud was like, that's not nice. But I internalize that. And I remember him sending me a joke email in air quotes that has a, is it, is it Faith No More? No FX, I can't remember.

But they have a song and the lyric in it is Kill Rock Stars, How ironic, Kathleen, you've been crowned their latest queen can't change the world by hating men because I was in my peak Kathleen Hannah Bikini Kill Face and he sent me this email to be like just FYI and I'm like why? Now I'm like yeah you've just drawn a circle around some very shitty male behavior and some terrible songwriting thank you for that but that's a weird thing to do to a partner but it's like it's to get back in your box thing yeah so

I mean you putting it that way is like I haven't heard it that way and it's so right on, you know, and just keeping you like that. And yeah, from within relationships from people that in theory support you, whether those are personal relationships, work relationships. It's just interesting. But maybe by the, if I reach 50, 60, I'm going to be terrible. Just going to be sitting in a rocketeer hexing people. I don't know. I'll be joining you. But yeah, it's just interesting to realize how much, I don't know, I think, especially the last couple years, I'm like, yeah, You have to be very careful with the people you surround yourself with. And you are what you eat in that way.

Right. You are. Yeah. You are. My husband always says like, what is it? Like you're the sum value of the five closest people in your life. I probably said that really wrong. That's nice.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's been, I feel like I've done a lot of ragging on the males over the last hour long. But I feel like being. in a relationship with a, you know, I don't know how long we've been together for, but my current partner is genuinely actually supportive and, like, is interested in my creative life, in my career, in my hopes and dreams, not just in the tagging at the end of the day to see what you did and then I'll tell you about my stuff.

Oh, yeah. Like, he's actually interested. And I remember being shocked that he would turn up to shows he said he was going to come to you and I'm like, well, you're actually going to come to that tour date? And he's like, why would I not? I said I would. I'm like, oh, that's not been my experience. Like, you know, and I'm like, oh, it's just actually nice to have somebody be interested and not

envious of it or not undercutting it. Genuinely, authentically supportive. Like, having real support, there's such a difference. Yeah, it's not just the gestures of, and it's interesting how you teach yourself or you learn to accept stuff that is not okay. I think it sometimes shows up as. what could look like support is actually control. Yeah.

Yeah. And I guess it's weird to realize, I guess you see it sometimes reflected to you in your current partner because sometimes I don't realize. Like, not that I don't think, I've had some great experiences and some very shitty experiences. And then sometimes I see, he is the mirror. Like during lockdown, we were trying to make this church's album. And he plays his own music but records and does production stuff. And he was like, I can help you record your vocals.

And I was like, no. And I immediately was like, no, I know, no, I can't have that. I can't, I can't do that. And he was like, why? Why? Like, oh, I can teach you how to use the set up or any of that. And I was like, no, I can't. But we couldn't go into anybody else's house. So I was like, well, I just can't record vocal sense.

And he was like, I'm offering to help you. Why will you not accept my help? And I was just that I don't want these two things to be connected. I don't want the streams to cross because I don't want a partner involved in my creativity because it's just going to be really terrible. And then everything's going to go wrong. And then there's other things. ruined and he was like, Jesus Christ.

He's just offering the track your vocal and I was like, ooh, okay. And yeah, I think it's weird because I've learned to be so protective of my creative life because I feel like so many men have tried to undercut it and derail it. Yeah. So did you open up to him doing it? It did, yes. Yeah. And how did it go?

His only criteria was that he didn't want to be in any of the Instagram footage or whatever. He was like, please angle it away from my head. I don't want to be involved. And I'm like, all right, that's fine. And it was fine. Yeah, if anything, it was me that got more touchy about things. He was just quietly doing his work. And I guess that was an exercise.

It's the lack of trust, I suppose. Yeah. For sure. And I was like, okay, I've come to terms to the fact he may not be actively trying to undermine to do you. You're like, he's actually helping me. And then when we were recording some lyrics, I'd be like,

not you, obviously. this isn't you. Like, I'll write a nice song about you later and he's like, no, you won't. I'm like, okay, no. But yeah, I'm like, not you, sorry. But also I do think there's something in that. Not a lot of men, especially men who work in the same thing that you do, would be able to sit and record

songs with their girlfriends talking about horrible experiences she's had with all of men. I don't think, yeah. We just went through that. Yeah, because we're recording this now and we've talked about things that, you know, we get pretty personal, you know, and talk about ex-boyfriends and physical relationships and things.

I was scared with Jeff. Just because my husband, I was like, I talk about like past boyfriends and orgasms and, you know, just, you were really open. And he listened and he was like, I was like, did it make you feel uncomfortable? And he's like, not at all. I honestly wanted to hear more.

Like, and I was like, we're like, that's how we tell our full support if they're okay hearing about all of our past sexual experiences. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess mine are just written in a kind of rhyming scheme. Yeah, you're right. You're just much more poetic and you're like, you know, talk about it.

And then I hated them. Yeah. Exactly. But yeah, it's really nice to feel that support because that is like unconditional stuff. Yeah. And it just means that the person's able to separate their experience and like literally support you and be like, this is your dream. This is something you love.

This lights you up, turns you on. Like, let me help. You know? And it's, I don't know. I guess I was just about to be like, hopefully I won't in a couple of years be like, I was wrong, you guys. But I don't know. It's nice to be in a dynamic where you feel like you can pick up positive traits from people,

whereas I feel like I've picked up a lot of not necessarily impulsive treats in previous things. So this poor guy, well, I was going to say he's unpicking all of it, but I suppose I'm on picking all of it while he's standing there being like, she's crying into the cat again. But I don't know. I think a certain amount of crying into the cat is always going to happen because that's like the makeup of being an emotional person. Yeah.

I think it's a great saying too, crying into the cat. I think that's using that from now on. She was like, why is that happening? But yeah. I need to get a cat just for that purpose. Like I have two. You can we can each take. We'll pass them around.

We're a big fan of crying in my house. Like, because my husband and I went. to spiritual psychology school together, and it was very encouraged to cry. And so anytime one of us cries, we celebrate it. Fuck, yeah. We get so happy. We're like, go ahead, babe. Let it out. Let me, let me hold you while you cry. He never tries to stop it. You know, it's, we were taught not to stop crying. Like, they would have Kleenex boxes. And you weren't allowed to offer the people a Kleenex because what that does is it subconsciously signals them to stop or to clean it up, you know? And I was like, wow, that's fascinating.

Like how often when someone cries do we go to touch them? Or it's basically signaling stop. Like something's wrong? Yeah. As opposed to just like literally holding space for that person to feel what they're feeling and let it move through them. I like a good shower cry because it can be like hands free. Hands free. No clean up required.

You can just go. But then does it get wet? Oh, yeah. I've had to shut them out of the bathroom because we changed the shower curtain. So now it's like transparent. Like the inner one is transparent. And my boyfriend's become incredibly horrified by that because they like the sound of the water. And when it was like a white curtain, you wouldn't see them.

So it didn't feel weird. But now you can just see that creepy little faces. And he's like, get them out. It's horrible. So, yeah. That's his only demand. please stop laying the cat in the bathroom. But they sit and claw at the door when he's in there.

So I'm like, well, they must want to say hi. So I let them in. Yeah, I'm encouraging them to bully him. It's really funny. Yeah. If that's his only criteria, I can do it. You know what? That's pretty good.

If all he asks, the cats don't watch him shower. That's fine. I guess that would be okay. We always take the dog out during sex. We do. Do you? Are they attracted to by the activity? I will say like one of the dogs in our rotation is newer.

So when it first was happening, she was like, what the fuck is going on? Like trying to get all up in it. And like, what is this? No. And now she's used to it. But yeah. In the beginning, it was a little hairy for a while. Yeah, like strawberry would go up in the zones.

You know what I mean? She'd be like, what are we doing? It's like, we do everything together. This sounds fun. Yeah. No, no, no. No. Or just watching.

Like, just watching. I'm like sitting there staring. Yeah. I wonder if they perceive what actually is. Sometimes the cats will watch like some, like TV. Like if there's an image on the TV. Like, or they look at something at the window. So I'm like maybe it's similar to that or can they tell animalistically that?

I don't know. I feel like they have to intuitively and animalistically know something's going down. Yeah. Then they make mountain each other. They're like, okay. It's go time. So see, we did it again. We went off the rails.

I know. We're really terrible. So we typically play a game. Is it a good time to play the game? We like to play Bang Mary Berry. Who are we going to do? Johnny Greenwood. Yep, from Radiohead. Vin Diesel and Donald Glover.

I feel bad saying what I'm about to say, but I'm going to bury then. Sorry to say. That's, I get it. I would too. Yeah. I remember he presented the European MTV Awards or whatever in Scotland once in wore a leather kilt. I've never forgiven him for that.

Oh, wow. Yeah, that is unforgivable. He's buried. I was like, that's enough. You can choose to kill him then. Yeah, you can change it to kill him, you know. Whichever terminology is used, politically I abstain from making that. And who were the other

Donald Glover and Johnny Greenwood I'm going to say Mary Greenwood bang glover Yeah you're in a bang bang glover You did well

We will say we had someone When we gave them You know They were too scared to like bury them as and kill them So they buried them in the sand And they played together Yeah

Well that's nice I was apparently a lot more savage I was like first of all leading with that But yeah I have seen magic Mike 2. Okay. So I remember the Donald Glover scenes in Magic Mike too.

I haven't seen. I haven't seen either though. Yeah. Childish Campe. Wait. Am I getting it wrong? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, he does some singing. Really on it today. He's like in. Dude, just his like, what's his famous? He's super swaggy. No, but what's the music video? His song.

Like, this is America. Yeah. That is one of the coolest videos. And he's a great, incredible singer, but great writer as well. So I would say it's a toss-up between where I go for him and Johnny in terms of the... No, I feel like you...

Yeah. That was a good way to go. Yeah, Johnny was right to marry. Thanks. I think that was his song. I would have done the same. And they seem... Radiohead, it seemed like they're in a more

positive, less cranky era. Yeah. So if it was like meeting people as easy era, I'm like, I don't think I could marry any of those. It's true. But, you know, they were having a tough time. They were having a tough time. It's a lot of touring.

Yeah. A lot of touring for them. Yeah. So, no, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have a band called The Smile now. Yes, yes, which I just up there. I learned this morning when I was leaving the house that we are having a smile stream viewing party on Saturday. And I was like, are we? Oh, you know. I was like, what is this, Matt? What's going on?

What am we? They're doing like a live stream. Yes, from the roundhouse or something? No. So, yes, 5.5 p.m. And I was like, that's very early to just start thinking about radio head. But I think, yeah, Sam was like, I think about radio head all the time. I'm like, okay, okay, I will do this for you. Oh. You support my mental breakdowns and I will facilitate. I will support your radio head.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? He's the cutest one at Radiohead, right? I'm trying to picture. I would say, yeah. I like that you look to Rob, like, Rob, is he? He had the iconic look.

He had the iconic hair. Because I have like this, there's a picture. I guess traditionally, I would say Johnny is. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm picturing. Non-traditionally, you feel drawn. You feel like Tom? He's got...

Tom's got his thing. And, like, definitely one of my favorite guitarists of all time. Like, definitely one of the most iconic guitarists, I would see. When he scored 11 movies this year. Really? T. Oh, yeah, what did I see? He did Power of the Dog.

He did Spencer. Spenceer, that's right. Power of the dog, because I just watched it. The music was very present in what I remembered most from the movie. Yeah, that's Johnny. because he didn't like there will be blood. Oh, that makes sense. Well, when we're married, guys, you can come around and ask them.

Yeah, exactly. And I will ask him about what it was like to be in Harry Potter. So. Ah. Yes, yes. We definitely watch the same things. Yeah. Now, you guys just take over and go.

But yeah, that's, yeah, the music was really, really incredible. But your music is incredible. And I feel so lucky to have been able to talk to you. No, thank you guys for. I enjoyed this. You're so talented and amazing. Thank you. Thank you. And now I will cry. Oh, my... Wait, no cat. No cat needed. I do have a question before we go. What was the Lost Boys song you guys covered? Oh, I cry a little sister. Yes. Yes. And we did it for a film. I remember getting that email through and in my mind, I'm like, what? Someone wants to pay us money to

do this. Definitely would have done this for free. But sure. So yeah. I mean, that was a stressful one because we love the original song so much in the original film so much spent a lot of time watching The Lost Boys Oh yeah If you put Tim Capello in the Oh That trio I would have a tough time

Damn We were off our game Normally we're more prepared Yeah normally we We really put a lot of thought into it Yeah But I guess yeah He's like

A slicked up saxophone playing Vin Diesel That's what we were going for That's what we were going for But because the original So like 80s And the lyrics Like when I zoomed out

I had to deliver them, I was like, these, these are weird alerts. These are interesting letters. I don't remember. And when, because it was so like a kind of more acoustic version, which is what they asked for, then the lyrics were very present. And I was like, oh, this is some very got got these stuff. I love it. But thank you. That's very nice. And I like the whole kind of, I don't know if it's like a dark energy. I don't know what you would call it on your latest album, but it's got those feels. It was a, it was a spooky time. I love that. That's what I was. That's what I was. I mean, my favorite thing is the spooky feeling.

Yeah. Well, yeah, and I feel like, I don't know. I mean, I thought about it when we were making it. I was like, oh, is this too, especially with the lyrics and stuff, I was like, man, maybe this is just going to bum people out too much. Oh, no, I don't know. But when it came out, I was like, oh, no, everyone feels terrible. Everyone feels terrible.

So I just want you to put a beat to it and then it's done. Yeah. I find it comfortable. Yeah, I'm supporting everyone's feelings collectively. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you so much for it. No, thank you for having me.

Yeah. Thank you, well. For watching me. He watched me do some bad reverse parking. He's very nice about it. Good. He's our traffic coordinator. Awesome.

Yay. I was really happy that Lauren was willing to actually come in person and sit with us and talk to us. She was our first. So, Olivia. Yeah. I know you probably haven't read the news yet this morning. No. But Roe v. Wade was overturned in the Supreme Court.

No. Yeah. What? Yeah. I have been so, so upset all morning. And I, you know, I generally don't like engage or get worked up or try to like, you know, I try to be very even keeled and open-minded and whatever. But this is so beyond upsetting. as someone who has had non-viable pregnancies, like imagining, like, just having to go through it because you don't have that option. And that's just one example.

I'm very upset. Yeah. I mean, I'm a little speechless right now. I scared my mom, though, this morning because she hadn't read the news and I text her. And I was like, today is, like, such a devastating day. I need to move to Canada. and my mom thought, like, we were literally moving to Canada. And she was, like, calling me and I was in the car, dropping Breyer at camp.

And, like, she couldn't say anything. And I could tell. She was really, she's like, hi. She's like, everything okay? Like, really concerned. And I'm like, I'm dropping Briar. She's like, okay, call me. Call me as soon as you drop her off.

And then she proceeded to call me, like, ten times before I got back to the car. And then she read the news and was like, oh. So what does it actually mean, though, as far as, each state goes. I think it's allowing the states to make their own decisions. Right. So then that means half of the states are going to have

more restrictions than they currently do. It's so mind-blowing, you know? And the people making these decisions, it's like, well, I'm just, I'm just speechless, and it's just like, what time is this? What time are we in, you know? And what has this country come to?

It's very, like, confusing. And like I said, I try to be open-minded and I don't want to be so, you know, political. But this has to do with women's bodies and their own personal decisions and other people controlling it. And it's... But it also seems absurd that we're having this conversation about women not being able to make this decision, but then taking guns away from people is also not allowed. Right. Right. But that bill did pass yesterday.

Yeah. Which is at least a teeny bit of a step forward in that area. Right. Right. But then there's also the like carry laws that are being loosened. The thing is, is that it's heartbreaking to me. I'm honestly in a little bit of shock because it feels like we just got transported to an alternate reality. I remember when that first got floated around that that could happen.

I remember thinking that's never going to happen. How could it? So I personally know someone very dear to me that just went through something really painful. And if that wasn't an option for her, it would have been a lot more painful. I can say that. that there's times where medically, physically, spiritually, all reasons point to this isn't a viable pregnancy and this person needs some sort of medical intervention and help. And the fact that people aren't going to have that right to choose that is utterly heartbreaking. And, you know, a lot of these people

that I know that have been through these situations are people that historically were Christian or Catholic and came from the views of every life matters and while I totally respect that and I believe every life matters, it matters to do the right things for those lives too. So who are these people to say what matters? Do you get what I mean?

Yeah. Like it matters that this woman dealing with these situations, what about her life? Right. Doesn't that matter? Yeah, absolutely. And the high risk things that are like you could die in childbirth, but you know what?

You know what I mean? Like there's just, it's confusing. It brings up a lot for me personally because we're looking at different schools right now to put our kids in. And it's a tough time to make decisions on even where your children go to school because of what's being taught. And, you know, the divides in this country. and really making the decision of, like, what do I want put in my child's head?

I know that might not seem related, but it is. No, it is. Absolutely. That's scary. It's so scary. I think the big thing with this, too, is that women with means are going to be able to still find access. Who is really hurting is people below the poverty line or people that have already been disenfranchised.

People that need help. Yeah, people that need help and can't get it. And they're going to still seek it and probably put themselves at an extreme risk. Because they're still going to, it's not like it's not going to happen or exist, but they've just created this roadblock that's so much more harmful. It's just mind-blowing. I, it's just so upsetting. It is.

I feel because it's just my natural instinct to go to a spiritual level with it and really look at it from that altitude and ask like why, right? So when I look at any issue in my life, I'm like, okay, this is either for me or against me, period. There's no in between. And so if we look at this and we say, how is this happening for us as a nation, what is the opportunity here? Like what is really breaking down so that it could be rebuilt because something is not working? It is flawed, right? And there's a light being shown that we are so completely divided.

And in order for us to rebuild and repair this nation, it's almost like it has to break down. Right. This is a breaking down on a major level. I, you know, I know that there are people that are very, you know, religious and they feel like, you know, God's plan and all that. And I'm like, great. Great. That's your choice. Yeah.

They're taking away women's freedom to choose. And I respect their choice, you know? It's like, great. You have your choice and I have my choice. And that's the whole point is that we get to choose. Right. And, you know, it's confusing. I talked to a friend about this the other day because, you know, we just found out

our son has a chromosonal disorder, right? And if that would have been presented to me while he was in utero, I don't know what we would have done. Because the way it would have looked on paper is, okay, this kid's missing a chunk of his chromosome. He's going to have hearing loss, lung disease, pulmonary hypertension, be developmentally disabled, all of these things. I don't know what I would have done. Right. I'm grateful that that information wasn't presented. to me because he's the love of my life. But it's such a personal choice and decision that people are

being faced with. And, you know, for me personally, I do feel, I don't know, it confuses me because I'm like, I don't know what I would have done. Right. I'm grateful that it wasn't worse. I know people that have been presented with things where the child wouldn't have lived. You imagine as a woman having given birth and like knowing that you're going to have to go through it all and birth a child. And we know women who have done that. We do. And it's incredibly painful, traumatic, all of it. Yeah.

But also, you know, I think that there's a lot of people out there that are not equipped to take care of children and aren't ready to take care of children and don't have the means to take care of children. and then we're saying, okay, well, you have to have them, but we're not going to do anything to really make sure they're okay after you do that. Right. Well, yeah, all of the, like, baby formula stuff that was not passed to take care of these babies. Right. They are being forced to have. Right.

Yeah, and also, too, like, Jeff and I think about it, we're like, we're so fortunate that we can offer the means to supply our kids with the things they need. And there's so many kids that have syndromes and disorders and, you know, alcohol fetal syndrome, like all of these things that require, it requires a lot of money to care for these children. And it requires a lot of attention. And if we were both to be working full time and not able to provide the services Shepard needs, that would be a living nightmare. And a lot of these families, they would be forced to have these children.

when they can't do it. There's so many areas, you know. There's the woman who is raped. There's the babies that aren't okay, aren't healthy, aren't going to make it. There's just so many areas in this that's... Yeah, there's too many circumstances. There's way too many. To have a blanket.

Oh, your baby's going to die, but you have to carry it to term. It's like, wait, what? People who haven't gone through childbirth or haven't experienced it or haven't, you know, men in particular who have no idea. It is so much to go through, even with a completely normal, healthy pregnancy. I feel upset. I think I might move to Canada. You're not moving to Canada.

I mean. We have a podcast to run in L.A. You can't go to Canada. Yeah. So, you know, Lauren speaking on, like, how to always find the positive, right, and stay positive. So I think one of the positives from this is that it's a waking up the activist and a lot of people that have been dormant. And these are kind of things that I never thought I had to get involved in or really even look at because I didn't really feel like it affected me. But now I feel like it's waking up women in general. You know what I want to talk about?

One of my clients was saying that they wanted to experience more confidence. And, you know, that when they put themselves out there artistically, creatively, or in any of those areas, that if they were to really love themselves, they would feel confident. And I was like, I think confidence is completely overrated. And, you know, when Lauren talks about being so nervous that she threw up in a trash can, that's a, what I want to hear. I want to hear you are nervous, you're scared, but you did it. And I think that courage is a much stronger thing to strive for than confidence. Because I don't really think that you need to be confident. I think you could be scared as shit and do it anyways. And that to me is what I look up to in people far more than someone that's just naturally confident. How do you guys

feel? I love that. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. Do you get nervous? Of course I get nervous. I remember right before we interviewed Zoe, I had like massive anxiety. And I don't know why. But what I find helps me, I had one of my daughter's little, if I have one of her poppits or a squishy and I can. The fidget spinner. Fidget spinner. And I use those. It really calms my nerves. But you do it and you go through it and then you realize, oh, it was all okay. And I think that's a much bigger lesson, especially in. stealing in your children, then confidence, you know, with courage, I just love that perspective. Yeah. Speaking of like the fidget spinner, I did this cool thing yesterday. Have you guys heard of tapping? I have. What is it though? I don't know what the actual term for it is, but it's like emotional tapping. So I did a session with my friend from school because I was dealing with some emotional things that have been stored in my body. So she has you kind of have a conversation.

and you tap different parts of your body and it releases the energy. And so the whole time you're talking, you're tapping. And then you start to tap in like new information. So it's kind of like a physical rewiring and a physical release of energy. It was really cool. Yeah? Yeah. And it like brings up any trauma you have in your body.

And then you get to kind of make good with it and instill new hardware in a way. It's interesting. There's like a tapping app and everything. I feel now I'm going to get much more into tapping. Yeah, just happy Gilmore at. Anyone? Tap, tap, tap it in. Yeah. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. But she was telling me, you can do it with your children when they're nervous or if they get anxious or if they're afraid of anything. You can start teaching them how to tap so that it just kind of rewires the system. And it just goes to show like we all get nervous and we all get scared. And this thing of like having to have it all together is just such boo hockey.

Yeah. Courage over confidence. You know, I love that she had the courage to share her shower cries because how relatable is that? Super. It actually makes me want to do it. I haven't had a shout. I cry in. public constantly. I don't even hide it anymore. You know what's so interesting for me my version of

the shower is in the car like for some reason I can really have it out when I'm in the car and I was driving the other day and I saw a woman like bawling in her car and I was like you feel like you're so protected and you're in your own space and you're having your moment but like but you're not people are watching but you're not you have a clear windshield and everyone sees it. The shower may be a better place. Shower I think she's on to something with the shower. I think I need to switch from a car to a shower, personally. Rob, how do you feel about crying in front of people? I mean, personally. Yeah, personally. I haven't done it in a long, long time. You haven't cried in front of anyone in a long time? I think the last time was like my

grandpa's funeral. When was that? Like eight years ago. You haven't cried in eight years? I don't think... Have you? Have you? cried and it's just been by yourself or you haven't cried in eight years? I don't think I've cried in eight years. Wow. Yeah, I'm about to. I mean, I find that I cry, I think, almost at one point every single day. Yeah.

Actually, it's not true. I think six years ago, when we moved to California and we, like, packed up the moving truck, and it was at my parents' house, and when we were driving away, I did. Natalie was there for that too. Because my, well, my parents were both very emotional about it. Yeah. Is Natalie a cryer? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. And often, often cry. Yeah. We can relate. That's amazing. Eight years. Six years. Six years.

Still, that's a long time, Rob. I think you're due for a cry. What about, not even when your children were born? No. I remember getting I mean I was close to it with Vincent when they were like we need to either

suction his head out or cut you open for a C-section that was as close as I've gotten that got real recently yeah but then she it was fine right yeah it ended up being okay but it was here's you guys can take five minutes to decide

what to do about this baby oh here's to pretty extreme options. Childbirth. And we'll be right back. Yeah. That's how it goes.

I mean. That's how it goes. Jeff cries a lot. Jeff cries a lot. He gets moved by things. He does, yeah. I don't count that, though. Like, I'll get moved by things.

And you'll have to your? But do you feel like you can, like, if you get moved by something, will you freely cry in front of people? I don't, I won't cry from it, but I'll, like, my eyes will get, like, watery. also. It's so cute. And since having kids, it's over the stupidest shit. It's like a stupid TV commercial.

We'll do it. Yeah, that's Jeff. We were driving the other day, and it was really sweet. There was a mom. We saw a mom deer, and Jeff's like, turn around, there's baby dears. And there was these two precious, like the smallest little baby dears I've ever seen. And they were stuck on the opposite end of the gate

from their mom. Oh, no. And I was like, Jeff, you have to get out and help them over. They're stuck. And he's like, let's just watch and see what they do. So we sat there for a while and watched. And they finally made their way through the gate. And we were like, oh, my God, see?

Like, we would have really messed that up if we would have intervened. And they made it through and they got to their mommy. And Elliot goes, I have water in my eyes. And I was like, oh, my God. He was crying. I turned around and he had tear drops. Oh, come on. And I looked at Jeff and so did Jeff.

And Shepard was just roaring like a dragon. I was the only dry eye in the car. You know what kind of animal that I would never do that for? Or help or stay and watch what happened? A cat. Cats. You're taking that art of a dance against cats right now? Oh, I am very, very passionate about my dislike of cats.

As in mine. We share that, Olivia and I. Yeah. Well, you know, Lauren has a lot of cats. I know, and that's why... Or some cat. Lauren has cats. Lauren has cats.

I have met nice cats before. It's few and far between, but I'm sure your cats. Well, you're allergic, too, right? So that's not really your fault. I am. Are you? Are you just pretending? I got attacked.

Okay. My dad, when I was a kid, his girlfriend, adopted a cat. It would hide under the bed and any room I would walk into, it would attack me. It would wait for me under any bed, any couch, any table, and if I was walking by, I was brutally attacked. Yeah, it's brutal. Okay? So I have a story, why. So do I.

I ended up having to go to the hospital. What cat attacked you? My friend Desiree's cat. Oh, yeah. We were at her house and the cat was pregnant and I got up to go pee in the middle of the night and I saw these eyes glaring at me. And then it just darted down the hallway, ran up my body, literally, up my body. It was clawed on with his claws and his teeth and I was shaking it off of my arm and I couldn't get it off of my arm. And her dad walks in in his underwear with a baseball bat and had to get it off of me. With the bat? Yeah.

Well, he, like, pried it off with the bat or he had to hit it with the bat? He didn't end up hitting the cat with the bat, but that's how he scared it away. And then I couldn't lift my arm for like a month. I had to go get it checked out. It was bruised and cut and whatever. The cat had babies. Our friend, Deanna, took one of the babies and then the baby would attack me. And I liked cats before this.

See? Now I don't. I arrest my case. Well, guys, it's been a very broad conversation. And I thank you for being here. As do I. That was a hate gum podcast.