Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Libby Weintraub on Stillbirth, Poetry, and Processing Grief

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

October is Pregnancy/Infant Loss Awareness Month. Author Libby Weintraub recounts her experience with stillbirth, and the long process of working through the shock and grief of that.Libby’s book She Was Born: Words on Loss and Liberation is available for purchase here: https://store.bookbaby.com/book/she-was-bornBroad Ideas is supported by Talkspace. Get $80 off your first month at Talkspace.com/IDEAS.Broad Ideas is supported by Brooklinen. Visit Brooklinen.com and use code broad for $20 off your order of $100 or more.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yellow, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, hear stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast on HBO Max, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to broad ideas.

Hello, guys. Thank you, Rachel. Hi. Hey. So today, first of all, October is the National Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month. So we have an episode. First, we would like to acknowledge that we talk about things that could potentially be triggering. It's very open and honest and vulnerable and beautiful.

and beautiful, but we just want to put that out there before you listen, but we really encourage everyone to listen to this beautiful human, Libby Weintraub, who is one of Olivia's best friends, came to tell her story and share her story with us and wrote a book, and it's really an incredible journey and story and perspective and all of it, so we encourage you to stay on the line. And it really It stayed with me for a long time after And it will And it will

I think it might do the same So let's have Libby Sometimes we're inside of all these thoughts are swirling Round and round inside To join us on this journey As we take a little ride We'll talk about dogs and kids and things We'll talk about

Chicks and tampon strings. We'll talk about boys that a need. Because people die. You know what happened this morning I was getting ready. It was so funny. I was like, I felt nervous yesterday, but then I was like, oh my God, they're so amazing. Like, we've got to talk about all these incredible things. And then this morning when I got up, I felt like I was like, you know how you feel?

What do you call? You know, when you miss school? What is it when you miss? Play hookie? Yeah. Like we call it wagging in Australia. Oh. When you wagging, when you wagging, when you wag school.

Yeah. But I felt like I was going to be wagging school. Like, coming here, you're wagging school. Yeah, like, we're going to smoke cigarettes. Yes. Do bad things. Do you. Do you like, take you know what I'm going to get into trouble.

I was like, shouldn't I be going to work? Like, and then I was like, no, this is work. This is what you get to do now. See, that's Libby right there though. Yeah. This is your work. This is your work. Yeah.

And this is your work. Yeah. This is our work. This is your work. Yeah. Having these conversations. Yeah. Having these moments.

For sure. Yeah. We've had quite a few recently that have been next level. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like as we keep getting further and further into it, the conversations keep going further and further and it's just, it's been like really therapeutic and emotional and humorous, you know, everything. But for you to be able to come here and sit down. with us today and talk about everything is huge and thank you for being so open and beautiful and I'm

so happy to finally meet you and me too thank you so much yeah yeah um but obviously see you and olivia you have known each other a long time yeah a decade a decade a decade yeah 2012 we met yeah because i've been with jeff 10 years you met at us and it all happened at usm yeah yeah i remember yeah So tell, maybe just reiterate what US. We went to school together. We went to USM together. And I remember Libby stood up and shared. And I was like, what the fuck is that?

Because it was like, I wasn't used to hearing people share so honestly and authentically and from their heart and soul yet. Like now we're getting used to it, right? But back then, I remember like really wanting to experience people. in that way. And you were one of the first people you stood up and shared. And I remember just being mind blown that you were sharing from the depths of your soul in front of a room full of 200 people you didn't know. Yeah. That's a big deal. And then she invited us back to her house. And we went. Yeah. She's like, come to my house and have lunch. And we're like, yeah? And like we went. And it was like this gorgeous. Like it was another extension of her and I was like, oh my, I remember feeling like

I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be in this world because of that experience. I remember putting my bare feet on your grass and like we, it was just next level like depths and incense and flowers. Yeah, I like to create like I think that's one of my like gifts. One of the things I love more than anything is playing with a currency of beauty. Playing with a currency of beauty and like what does it mean to live a beautiful life and more than just like the objects that we surround ourselves with, which are really important because they all hold energy and frequency. But like how to let that beauty come out more and more.

And I think what I'm realizing is I get older because when I was young, I thought beauty was everything to do with the outside. I really didn't understand that you can touch into a different quality of beauty through grief, through loss, through opening your mouth in a classroom with over 250 people and just pouring your heart out. And I think, you know, just to give some background about USM, it is the only school in the world. It's currently closed now as everything's online. that teaches a program, a master's program in spiritual psychology.

So I don't know what brought you to the program, but I sort of, I was really lost. I was really lost. I was really searching for what was next. I think I've been a searcher my whole life, trying to understand why I'm here and what's my purpose. And I've gone down so many avenues. I left home when I was 17 and I moved to Tokyo.

I got a very big contract with an agency there, $45,000 at 17 years old. Oh, my goodness. And I'm like, great, I'm getting out of school. You're wanking? Wagging. Waging. Oh, wagging. Maybe some of that too.

That means something else. I don't know what that means. Yeah, I mean something else. Yeah, no, I was just like, yeah, even as a kid, I was like just, you know, things were difficult. We didn't grow up with a lot of money. Like it's, we grow up with like, there were moments where we like really struggled as a family. Like I remember mom telling me, dad was working away once and like the company hadn't sent the money into the account. So like she would sell, she sold furniture so we could eat. So there's been these moments of like, like real hardship.

But I had a very strong desire at a very young age to get out of that space to cut out of that space, to carve out a place for myself and just to follow that thread. And, you know, someone took pictures of me and they ended up at an agency. And then I met the agency and then had really long hair, like made me cut it all off. Oh, my goodness. It started taking pictures. And then I ended up, you know, I got this contract. And I went overseas, came back home, went to London, came back home, went to Paris, went to Milan,

kept meeting all these women from New York and I was like, oh, I have to go to New York. Something was calling me to New York, went to New York, came to L.A., went back to New York, met my husband. And it was just like this moment of just like following that thread, not knowing where it was going to lead me, but just following that thread. And then, you know, we lived in New York together for 15 years and we're like, let's, we want to start a family, you know, let's, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, And then I was like, well, I'm not raising them in New York.

And he's like, what do you mean? And I was like, never. You can't give me? All the cars and the horns and the pollution. And like I grew up like in the bush. Right. In literally in the bush, like with kangaroos and goannas and like all kinds of things surrounding this new development where my parents had bought a piece of land and were building a house.

And so we were like 15 minutes from the beach and we lived in the bush. And it was like, I wanted that for my kids. You're like, so Los Angeles. It's the brush. It's like, I can't move to Australia. He's in the music business. So he's like, all of his work is based here. We have a lot of friends here.

So it just made sense to make a move. So we moved and like, then we moved his mom. And then I started the class. But I was in that place of like I wasn't modeling anymore. I'd been a, you know, a prime. private raw food, vegan chef. Oh, wow. Teaching about detoxification and healing for six years.

And then I was like, what's my next move? Am I going to keep doing that here in L.A.? It seemed like the appropriate place to be doing health and wellness. And then my doctor introduced me to the work at USM, the University of Santa Monica. And I just signed up and it was very powerful. And I fell in love with Olivia immediately. Olivia and another friend Casey got up and she was I was and I had that same feeling. I was like, who is she?

Who is that girl? She just went so deep. And that's what I yearn for. That's why sort of when I was tuning in to your show is I left a message with Olivia the other day. There's this currency of vulnerability. Like I know it's like fun and playful and everything, but that's almost sort of like a little seduction into like, yeah, we're going to get each of those. Yeah, but we're going to go there.

We'll start up here and then we'll get into those bits. I think we're living in an age where we can't really afford to skim the surface anymore. We just can't. I mean, our world is changing so much. I drive by the streets and there's those little robots delivering food everywhere. It's like, drives me crazy. I just want to kick them. I'm like, where?

I know. The first time I saw one, I was like, what the fuck is that? So creepy. It's so weird. you look back on the, like the Jetsons, I don't know if you know, you know, when they're like predicting, they're like, oh, this literally is everything that's now. You know, like, yeah, you're flying cars. You know, they got a car that can fly. You're like, stay on the fucking ground. Yeah. Like, let us all just stay. What about first time? I was like, that's, oh, yeah, that's never going to

happen. Never going to happen. Yeah. And then we're like, hello. Yeah, every second. Like, so should I order these? Like, did you want this cup? Like, it's just so accessible. Everything's so accessible, you know. It's kind of a bit, it's kind of a bit, it's a bit disgusting. Yeah. At times. Yeah. At times.

I mean, the convenience is great, but it's like this technology is wonderful, but like how are we using it? And what's the end game? Like, because I feel like we've gotten so far removed from nature and natural environment. Like you said, just taking your shoes off and putting your feet on the ground, how re-centering that can be, just the simple act of coming home to yourself through taking off your shoes and reconnecting with the ground, with the earth. That's what your home does and that's what you create.

Like I really am going to set this up. Like we need to just go spend some time at Libby's. You have to go to Libby's house. Because it's a healing experience. From the time you walk in the door and you take off your shoes, it's that feeling of like, everything's good in this world. It was so funny. One of these nights recently, I came home from your house and I told Jeff I was like,

he was like, what did you guys do? I said, oh, we had this gorgeous salad and da-da-da-da. And he goes, okay, I'm going to say this right now. The only gorgeous salad that you're ever going to eat is at Libby's house. Yeah. Because he's like, salads aren't gorgeous. He's like, but you were at Libby's house, so it's a gorgeous salad. Yeah. Because she like, it's like she makes love to the lettuce. Like she doesn't, you know what I mean? Everything is just so intentional. It's intentional. And then she'll come over and, like, give you a flip rock. Oh, my God.

I'm not kidding. I don't know. I love it. Maybe it's like a past life. It's an experience. You feel healed in her home, in her presence, in her soup. In her soup. I think I said, I was like, you had this amazing.

It's like life-changing soup. But like, how amazing if life could be more like that. And that's a possibility that exists for us all, that we can slow down enough to be that present with our touch, with the, you know, making our food. And that was part of the training, like where I did my training. We had to be very intentional with the food because people were coming to the Tree of Life Rejuvenation Center for healing. So if you were in the kitchen and we would sage the kitchen every morning and gather together all the chefs and set an intention for, the energy that we would bring forward into the food that day. And if at any moment throughout the day, you weren't feeling right or you got frustrated,

you were asked to leave the kitchen. Wow. To walk the property or to go and sit, have a tea and then come back. Wow. Because with the raw food, you're working with like a super high water content in the food. And water is, you know, most of us are sort of getting familiar with, can hold a vibrational frequency. Right. So when people are eating that, you're sort of bringing that energy into your body. But the level of integrity in the center was like, unlike anything I've ever experienced.

Wow. So I carry that with me into everything that I'm doing, you know, and there are moments where I'm not in that place. And I really feel it. Yeah. I feel it. You can feel it when someone's really with you and really present and when they're not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And are you, so if we go back to USM, let's say. Yeah. I want to know what was your biggest takeaway from that. From that experience. It was a two-year program.

Yeah. That I'm enough, just as I am. And that was a biggie for me. Because I'd been like really searching for myself everywhere, like in the modeling and in the, the next job, the next photographer when I work for that magazine, when I shoot with that photographer. But it was this, always this feeling of emptiness. You know, if I lose this much weight, if I get more toned and more fit, then I'll get more jobs,

then I'll feel more. And it was just this endless cycle of searching. And the emptiness always remained. And it wasn't until really the work at USM, where I turned to that emptiness. and welcomed it sort of as a teacher, like there's something in here for me to look at because I've tried this, this, this, this and this diet and this job and this, and I still didn't feel connected. And so it was, it was just the, you know, this feeling of like, I'm enough as I am.

That was a big one for me. And I still struggle with that. You know, that'll circle back around for me a lot. But there's this knowingness now that there's a problem. place inside of myself that I can turn to and be fully resourced from that place. And it's like, I mean, you could call it your spirit or your soul or God or it's just, it's for me, it's an energy. It's a, it's a very calm, stabilizing current of energy.

And I've touched into it in meditation. I've touched into it into yoga. But it's not exclusively limited to those things. Because again, that was another thing. well, when I do my meditation, I'm going to feel that thing. And when I do my yoga, I'm going to feel that thing. But it's like I can get that feeling when I'm making food, too. I can get that feeling like even now just with you.

So it's a feeling that's available to us. It's an energy. It's a knowingness. It's an intelligence that's always there that's ever present. And I think sort of USM was the lead into my preparation for what was to come next, you know, because that was a two-year program. We went really deep. And we both got pregnant at, like, literally within weeks of one another. There were five women in the class that got pregnant, literally, like, within weeks of one another. I don't think I got pregnant until after

you gave birth. Really? No. I thought you were pregnant in the class. No. Okay. Then so, but there were other women. Because I didn't get pregnant until after graduation. It was Cheetah and maybe Sarah Givens. Yeah. There were a few others. Few others that all got pregnant the same year. But I know I didn't until after. Okay. And that's one of the things that like if you're open to talking about. Yeah.

Because you wrote a book obviously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So October is what?

National pregnancy and infant loss. Yeah. Awareness month. So if we can talk about that that, you know, obviously, Rachel, I've shared with you, Libby's experience, but it's, I'm just crying. You're crying. Well, it's been one of, obviously for you, the most life-changing experience of your life, but also so many people around you that love you so deeply and Scooter and everyone

that's been through this with you. But if you can tell us a little bit about Magnolia. Yeah, well, it's, yeah, it's been a pretty mind-bending, earth-shattering, like, experience. And I'm so thankful for this opportunity to speak about it because so many women don't. It's not really invited, and it's a very uncomfortable place to be in when you're surrounding, by friends who are pregnant and giving birth and you're pregnant and you're giving birth to your baby, but she's not alive, you know, so, yeah, there were, there were so many levels and layers to that experience for me, but to just sort of tether it back to USM, I don't think without,

without the skills, without the framework, without the context in which they gave us a new way of looking at life, a new way of looking at our challenges, a new way of looking at devastation, a new way of looking at death. Like without that framework, I wouldn't be sitting here today. And I say that not like, I mean, I really, really would not be sitting here today. I don't know if I would actually be here today. Right. Because the grief was so intense, because the loss was so intense. It's like there are moments where it just, you feel like you're being literally ripped limb from limb.

Like you can't even imagine carrying life inside of your being, your body, the intimacy that you're forming with that child. and all the love that you and your partner have for that child and then just the emptiness of there's nowhere to put that. Like, where does that go if she's not here? Where does it go? Like, what do you do with that love? You know, what do you do without longing? What do you do?

And so it was this process of like really trying to figure out, like, who are we now? Who am I? What is this? What is this? What do I do with this now? That I'm not going to mother in this way that I hoped and dreamed to mother in. You know, like, and so having the framework of school was really helpful. And it didn't ease the pain. It didn't make it easier. But it helped. There was like a flickering light off in the distance that I could touch into at times when it got really, really, really, really dark.

Really dark. So just for some background, I got pregnant in class. I miscarried my first pregnancy. I got pregnant in the first year. miscarried that. That was devastating. I remember. How far along? Eight weeks. So still early. But it just brought up all this stuff around feeling worthless and there's something

wrong with me. And I didn't really understand that like that's just a natural part of the body adjusting to this new phase. You know, like so many things have to line up in order for a pregnancy. Yeah. To take a hold and then to be carried to term. So that gave me a lot of material to work with just inside of myself. And then I got pregnant again, carried Magnolia to full term. So it was a few days before my due date. And I was up late at night, the night before she died. And just in my office looking at lists of what I got to do and what I got to have and

what I, you know, we got to buy that and just all the things that you think you need to be like a good mom. like all the thing. Yeah. You know, and really in the end, to be, yeah. At the end, all you need is like your boob, a blanket, the diaper, you know, like the basics. Right. But the new, like, high tech, whatever.

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to come and help take care of Magnolia. And Steve was like, come to bed, what are you doing? His voice just sort of echoed down the stairs. Like, this is crazy. you need to sleep. And this is one thing I kept promising myself as I got closer. This week I'm going to do nothing. This week I'm going to do nothing.

This week. But there was always something, you know. And in hindsight, it was, you know, it is what it is. But it was probably some part, I mean, you probably knew what was coming, you know, like some part was sort of preparing. So I was very distracted making my list. And I walked upstairs. I think it was like around two.

30 in the morning, got into bed, closed my eyes, laid in bed. And then mom was arriving at 8 in the morning. We had a car pick her up and bring her. And then I had an appointment at 9 a.m. at the doctor's office, not my OBG, just another practitioner I was seeing who does like body work and he was a trained dula. And so I went to my appointment with my mom and I'm like in the lobby waiting and I like go to the restroom. and then I get up and I look in the toilet bowl and there's all this blood. And I was like, what the fuck is happening? And then I was like, you know, this is my first full term pregnancy.

So I'm thinking, maybe I'm in labor. Like, you know, they say when your cervix opens, if there's a blood vessel there, they can be blood. And I'm like, okay, so I flush the toilet, I go outside and I'm standing there talking to my doctor. And I can just feel all this warmth. pouring into my underwear and I'm standing there and I'm like, give me a second. Give me a second.

And I go back in again and I just sit on the toilet. I get back up and there's more blood and I'm just like, fuck. What is this? You know, and I like go out and I was like, hey, Dr. Berlin, can you come and take a look at this? Like I'm not sure what's going on. And he comes in and he's like, oh, oh, wow. Yeah, we need to call your doctor. and we need to call your midwife.

And my mom is just sort of like delirious. She's off like a 30-hour flight. And I can see she's like panicked. But I'm still like I'm still like not really in my body. Like I'm not really sort of understanding what's happening. So I rang my husband who was at home in bed. And I said, hey, we're we, I have some things going on. I don't know what's happening with.

baby, we have to go and check on her. So he said, call me when you get to the doctor's office. So we're driving to the doctor's office. And I called Alicia Hayes on the way over. And she said, what's going on? And I was like, I don't know. And she said, we're Steve. And I said, hi. And she said, is he alone? And I said, yeah. And she's like, we're going to get Michael. We're going to go over. Let us know what's going on. That's her husband, Michael, Hayes. Yeah. And so we, um, so we, I get to the doctor's office and they still got all their Halloween, like, stuff hanging. And I was like, this is so weird. It was like walking into like a movie or something.

And like the nurse that greeted me was like, really, I feel like she was like really nervous. And I'm like, what the fuck is happening? And I look up and there's like this little witch hanging from the ceiling on her broom. And it says, be very afraid. What is? Be very afraid. And I'm like, be very afraid. And it was just like sort of like everything was in slow motion.

And then they wanted to put this band around my belly to check if I was having contractions. And I'm like, I'm not fucking having contractions. Right. I'm not having any contractions. I'm bleeding. Like I have like a little hand towel rolled up in my jeans. And then they walk, you know, my doctor who was, you know, supposed to be there to deliver is get at the airport, getting on a flight to go for Thanksgiving to visit his family.

So his colleague is seeing me to do the ultrasound and we're in the room doing the ultrasound. And like I'm looking on the screen and I can see her head and I could see her spine and I can see her arm and I can see, I can see her. But he's taking like a really long time. and I'm just like laying there looking at her on the screen. And I'm like, he's taking a really long time. And then I'm like looking at my mom. And I'm like, oh shit.

Oh, no. Like, and I was like, are you looking for her heartbeat, don't you? And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like moving it around. And I was like, it's not beating, is it? It's not. And he said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry. And it was just like my mom let out this how, like this how of like panic and loss and like. And I just turned to her and I remember holding her. And I was thinking, this is the realest fucking thing I've ever experienced in my whole life. And all that, you got to have the car seat, got to have the blank. Got to get those little shoes, got to get those, like that part of me that was up making lists,

like that panicked part that just needed to control everything, that fell away. And it was just dead quiet. Like it was silence. Silence. And it was just, it was the most real feeling because on one hand, I'm being told that my daughter's dead. and I know I'm going to have to give birth to her. And on the other hand, there's this peace and quiet and stillness that I've never experienced

in my whole life. So there's these two experiences coexisting simultaneously. And I'm just in this state of like, not denial of what's happened, but like, this is fucking real. This is fucking life. This is my life now. This is what's here before me. There's no past.

There's no present. There's nothing. It's like, it's like, like I got pulled right into the present moment. It's like someone throwing a bucket of cold ice on you, you know, and being in a daze and then waking the fuck up. And then I just was like, I hugged my mom. The doctor was sort of talking and talking. and his voice just sort of like faded into the background. And I'm like, like, I got to call my husband now.

I got to call Scooter. I got to call Steve. I got to, I got to, I got to, I got to tell him. I have to tell him that like our little girl is like gone. Like she's not here. And so I like. He moved us into the other room. And it was just like this part of me came online where I was like, okay, this is what's happening.

Picked up the phone. I called him. I was so scared to tell him. But he picked up the phone right as Alicia and Michael had arrived at the house. And so they were there to hold space for him, you know, when he received the news. They cleaned out the house. They took all the baby stuff. and they like put it in the garage.

And then they headed to the doctor's office. And we all just held hands and got in a circle and just prayed, you know, for the delivery. And yeah, that it would be, you know, we would be received with compassion and we would be received with love and that we could take our time. And so it literally just from the moment I found out

and then I called Steve, they arrived. And it was just like this, like I was saying, this part of me came online that was just like, and I don't know if it was like shock or it was like, like I said, someone throwing a bucket of ice on you. And it's like you're like, or someone's slapping you around the face or a gun going off. It's like, it's, you know, the house is on fire and you have to get out.

You know, it's like you go to the nearest, exit, but there was some part of me that now was like, okay, this is what we're doing. You know what that is? What is that? That's mother. That is the mother. Like in you, that is all the maternal, like everything, that's mommy. And that's what that was.

Because there's times where you have to just, no matter what, and that's the direction, and you're a mom. And that's what I believe. That's what that was. Because there's nothing in my experience in life, like there's nothing like being mother, you know? And like, that's just what you tune into because nothing else matters. Thank you for bringing that back around because like I've lived my life for the last nine years in some sense. There's not feeling like a mother.

Oh, you are the most phenomenal biggest mother. like I've ever sat in front of like because in that moment how you handled it that's being a mother yeah and we went we got in the car I got on my phone I write this beautiful message I sent it to everyone like this is what's happening this is this is our life now please send us light please light candles don't reach out well you know we got to the hospital they were so nice to us we went into the room we turned all the lights off we we made made it our own space. And again, that, that, that, that quiet, that stillness, that presence, it stayed with me like the whole time. I'm thinking to myself, I'm going to make this the most

beautiful fucking labor that's ever. It's going to be. It's going to fucking beautiful. Because she's my girl. She's my baby, you know, like, we're going to do this. We're going to do this. We're going to drop in. And like, I have all these photos. that my midwife took. And there's this beautiful one of me just sort of laying on the, on the maternity, on the bed. And I've just got my hands on her. And I'm just in this, like, you look at my face and it's like, she's been meditating for like six hours. It's just like, it's just like, please and calm. Because finally, that part of me that had been like trying to control the whole situation, like there was no room for her anymore.

Like that fell away. And like what came forward and up and underneath that is, like you said, is mother. Is mother. Yeah. And I was like, and it's so funny because up until that point I'd never been like, I need this and I need that. Can you get me this? Can you get me that? You know, and I remember someone going, whoa, you were just like so directional with everything.

You handled it. Yeah. You know. You advocated for you. You advocated for her. Yeah. And that's what it is. Strong like a mother.

I mean, it's the saying for a reason, you know? Yeah. And so many people were like, you gave birth to her? You mean you actually, like you gave birth to her? You labored and did the whole thing. I was like, yeah. What do you just cut me open because she's not alive? Like, bypass that experience?

I mean, you know, that's inevitable for some mothers. That's part of the journey. But like, no. Yeah, I gave birth to her. I'd labor. Like, every other model would labor. I took the fucking drugs. I was so, like, I'm not going to take drugs.

I'm having to have it home. I would have all this beautiful music playing in the background. I watched all these videos. It was just one of this, like, woman having an orgasm while she was like, yeah, what I'm doing? I'm so ridiculous. Oh my God. You know, like the journey.

Yeah. That's the thing. Like as a mom, right? It's like there's two people involved in this dance. It's you and your child. And, you know, you can have all the good intentions you want about where you want to have it and what song's going to be playing when they're crowning.

And like what sort of incense you'll be burning and like all that stuff. That's fine. Like have your vision to do you think. Great. But like be open to a pivot. Oh, yeah. open to a pivot because sometimes for the well-being of that child, a pivot is required. And it's just that's one of the things that I'm really wanting to bring into the conversation

now in regards to mothering and birth, childbirth, is like, where's the middle lane? Right. Where's the middle path, right? You're either in the hospital camp or the home birth camp is what I've found. There's very much, you're in this lane or you're in that lane. And there's no real sort of like sober discussion around, well, what's the middle path if it's not going to be this? It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't want to talk about that. Right.

I want to have my home birth. I want to have my bupah, blah, blah. You know, or like, I want to have my hospital birth. Like, I don't know. It's one or the other. Right. But there's like so much that we can be married together of those two paths that would create a middle path that would empower. a mother to be like, I don't have to be afraid and scared and therefore opt into hospital right

away because what I've been told. And I don't have to necessarily be dead set on home birth, even though that's probably, you know, some women prefer that. That's the route I wanted. I wanted to be in my own home with my own food and my own bed. And like, that just felt if I could do that safe, which is why I got a doctor and a midwife. Then that would be my ideal choice. But there was a part me that was like very arrogant and very naive and very like, no, no, no, no, I'm having my home birth. Right. You know, all my friends had, Jackie had it, Alice had it, blah, blah, blah, blah. All these like friends had it.

So that's what I want. And it's like, well, but maybe that's not what you meant to get. That's right. There is another person involved in this equation called your child. And there's a feedback loop, right, between the mother and the child. And so the thing that I'm really curious about wanting to sort of put in the space more around these conversations is like how do we strengthen that feedback loop between mother and baby? And before we get to that, we have to, we have to look at the conversation of how do we

strengthen that feedback loop between our own inner knowing and our body? Like, we live with these decisions that we make. Like, just because someone's been a doctor for 30 years, fine, great. I honor the time you've put in. But like, where is my inner knowing coming into the equation? And it's like, like, even if I look like a crazy. needy, needy lunatic. Like, who gives a fuck?

Like, if my body's saying something's not right, I need to honor that, regardless of what the midwife's saying, regardless of what the doctor's saying, regardless of what the nurse is saying. So how do we empower one another to just really, like, learn how to, like, sit in that place and trust that wisdom that's coming through? Magnolia was breached a couple of weeks before. She was born. And the reason why I chose the doctor that I chose

because he does vaginal breach. Like that's, he's one of the top doctors in the country, one of the only doctors in the country that we'll do with a vaginal breach at home. So I was like, I had all my bases covered if she was brief. Right. And then I had a midwife. But he was going away for Thanksgiving. And he prefaced that before we signed up with him.

This is the only holiday I take all year. And I will be taking it. So if she comes during that time, you'll be in the hands of your midwife. And I was like, cool. But then she turned. She turned. And I was like, shit, what do we do now?

Because without him, like the midwife can't deliver a vaginal breach. It's C-section. And I was so freaked out about that. That was like, that was my one thing. Like, in my one thing, like if you had to say, what's your worst case scenario, for me, would it mean C-section? Right. I had no idea that she could have died.

Like, that wasn't even on my radar, not even in the realm of the scope of possibility. But everything was checking out. Like the whole pregnancy was fine. Yeah. And every, you know, every checkup, everything was totally. Yeah. And there were some complications with the insertion of the cord. Like, and this is sort of, we didn't.

Everyone was like, well, how did she die? What happened? So we didn't know until she was actually born. She came out and her cord was not attached to the placenta. So at some point over the course of 24 to 48 hours, her cord came to came. Something happened, whether she pulled on it or whatever. So we delivered her and I'm in this whole moment with her. And then obviously you then have to give birth to the placenta, but it wasn't coming out.

So the doctor actually actually reach inside and take it out. And then when he took it out and he looked at it and he inspected the placenta and then he inspected the cord, he realized that she had something called a velamentous cord insertion. And it's like very super rare. But I would say without getting too technical, the easiest way to describe it is if you've, have you ever seen a tree where it's, it's got the trunk and then but the roots are above the ground right they're not inside yeah that's what a vellamentis court insertion looks like so all those roots that are supposed to be protected underneath the grounds are now exposed and very vulnerable so we didn't know that

when we embarked on the process of doing what's called i think it's called a version or an in where they turn the baby so we we were a couple of weeks out from my due day. And so we sat with our team and we're like, well, what do we do here? You're going out of town. If she's coming while you're out of town, we're kind of screwed. Right, because it'd be a C section. Yeah. So they were like, that was sort of talked about, but it was more like off the table. It was more like, okay, there's acupuncture, there's all that, there's certain yoga positions you can do to turn her. and there's this amazing practitioner in LA that you could see.

He's wonderful. He's a doula. He's been in the birth field for many, many years, and he's very skilled at turning babies. So I was like, okay, well, I'll meet with him. And let's see what this is about. So he said, there's no forcing. We do it over the course of maybe six to eight sessions.

You lay on a table. We just sort of massage all the myofacial tissue around your hips and your back. him and then we tilt the table like this so that the baby sort of moves down. And if if she moves down and she's sort of sort of put our hands on her and move her a little bit, well, we just, they just sort of feel, the first session was just sort of feeling where she was and how she felt inside. And she didn't move. We didn't, like he sort of put his hands on either side. And he's like, no, she doesn't want to, she doesn't feel like she wants to move. And so, you know, the table goes back.

I go away. I come back a couple of days later. We try again. No. Okay. Came back. Table. No.

And then I kept thinking, like, on the third session, like, I wonder why she's not moving. And I rang my mom and my mom was like, well, I mean, I don't know, Libby. She said sometimes the baby will turn the day before. Yeah. And I was like, but I, you know, and I'm panicking because I'm like, you know, what am I going to do. And had I had like another person in my field of influence that could have said to me, sat me down and being like, you know, I know you have this beautiful vision. I know you want to have her at home. I know you're fully sold on the fact that not having any drugs, you know,

is going to be healthier for her. I get all that. But what's the ultimate goal here? Right. What's the ultimate goal? Well, it's to have a healthy baby to do. deliver a healthy baby. Okay, so what are, you know, there are some other options available to you. Like a really sober conversation, but the team that I picked, they're amazing at what they do, but that's not their scope. Right. Yeah.

So it was not. They're going to help you do it this way. Yeah. Yeah. And I think C-section was bought up, but I was just like, well, okay, okay, that will be my last resort. Right. Well, try this, and then that will be my last resort.

So on the sixth session, she actually turned. We did the massage, blah, blah, blah, turned around. And she, like, flipped really easily. There was no pushing or forcing or anything. It was just very, like, she turned. And then we did a couple of follow-up ultrasounds, and she was doing fine, like, really well, strong heart beat. And she was six pounds, two ounces.

She was not a big baby. No, but that's, yeah, 21 inches long. Sheppard was only four. Right. Really? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Teeny-weeney. Yeah, six is, I mean, that's... My daughter was 6-11.

Wow. Yeah, 6-9. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, so she was full, fully, fully, fully. So she turned and then, you know, we did ultrasound leading up, and then something happened that night when I was downstairs on the computer. Like, that was sort of... You could feel it, you mean? I couldn't feel something going on because I was like... Right. So in my busyness, but at one point I saw this like, it's going to sound so strange,

but I saw this like flash of light out of the corner of my eye, like a yellow gold kind of light, like if someone turned a light on and I just sort of turned my head and then I didn't see anything. And I just sort of went back and closed my computer and went upstairs. But in hindsight, I feel like that was probably when she left. And I went and laid in bed. And I, and, you know, the midwife was like, well, when did she move last? And I was like, fuck, I don't remember. I don't remember when I felt her move last. But there was something around like, so did turning her, you know, did that,

was that the cause of her death? No. But did it compromise her? It's like absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. With a vellimentous insurgent, turning a baby, not a good idea. I'm sorry. That's okay. You don't need to be sorry. Like where you stand on the spectrum. Like I had a girlfriend

call me, oh gosh, maybe a year ago, a year and a half go. She was in the same position. Baby turned breach. She wanted to have a home birth. And I was that sobering conversation. That sobering conversation, I wanted to have. I got to give that to her. And I was like, honey, I know what you want. And I know your philosophy of life. And I know that this is the path you've chosen. And guess what? Your baby's chosen something else. Right. They have different plans. Life on life's terms. He, what if this is what he wants? Because when I said to mom, why isn't she turned? And she said, well, maybe she's comfortable there. Yeah. Maybe that's where she wants to be. And so this is another thing, like, that I think is so vital in this conversation with mothering. Like, pick your lane, but be open to the middle

path, be open to the pivot. Everywhere, not just in mothering. Everywhere. In every way, shape, and form. It's one of the biggest things I talk about with pregnancy and having babies, and I've had miscarriages, so I've had losses never carried, you know, they were early on. But with birth, I even remember going into it being like, I'm open to whatever. Like whatever it is. Like, sure, do I want an epidural? No, I'd love to try without it. If I need it, will I take it?

Fuck, yes, I will. Wow. If, you know, will I, I always knew I was going to go to the hospital because I was like, you know, I'll just, whatever. It just feels safer for me. But I was open to anything. I'm like, if it has to be this, this or this. So that's like a conversation I always have. It's like you don't like relinquishing control, which you have to do a lot, you know, with kids and everything else.

But really doing that in the plans because what plans. can you make when it's really not up to you. Right. And there's nothing more out of control than having a child inside of you. Oh, my gosh. Think. Or outside, I'm sure. Yeah. Or outside, but at least you can pretend you have a little bit more control over that. Right. Because you mean like, you're not allowed to have that candy. Yeah. But when that's happening, it's like there's so much going on that is outside of your control. Yeah. That's definitely. And I will say this. Like, Libby is one of the strongest human beings I've ever come across in my life.

I see that. Like, literal hero. Like, that's why everyone in your life worships you. It's true. She could have a cult because we're all obsessed with it. She could. She could. I believe it.

She could. I believe it. She could. But, no, but, yeah, like, everything. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say. And not to change. the conversation from what happened to

then, but she went through this, gave birth to Magnolia, that grieving process, what she went through and then continued to have. Yeah, I had three more miscarriages after her. I did, my mom. How far along were the miscarriages? The first two were 10, and then the last

one was, I think, eight or six. And then a year after, Magnolia Pass says it's just a circle back so it was a velamentous insertion. Nobody wasn't detected in any of the ultrasounds, very mysterious. And to me, you know, like we didn't know, we didn't see it. It was, we weren't meant to. We weren't meant to. Like the level of healing that has come through this loss and the teachings that have come

through this loss and the poetry that's come through this loss and the, writing that's come through this loss. I mean, I've literally wrote my way through my healing. And now I'm on a mission to help other mothers and parents process their grief. You know, again, to go back to the beauty thing that we started with. To take something so terrifying and so devastating and to alchemize that experience into something that's beautiful that you can learn to walk alongside. Yeah. You know, you don't have to love what happened in order to accept it.

I don't have to like it. No. I don't have to agree with it in order to come into acceptance of it. But, you know, we, my husband and I had the most beautiful baby and she was so gorgeous and just so precious. And, but, you know, she just wasn't meant to stay. And I think part of her mission, part of her purpose was to crack us. open as individuals and as a couple to bring us into a deeper level of understanding of spirit

and the eternal nature of life, the magic of life, the miracle of life, the miracle that it is that we even exist, that we are even here, that we get to have this conversation, that we get to have kids at all. The fact that I got to carry her for 39 weeks in my body, like, that was a gift. Yeah. To feel that love between me and her, to sing to her in the shower, to like, like, it was just a beautiful gift. And it's like, who's to say?

Like, how do we quantify the value of a life? Right. Right? Oh, it shouldn't have happened. Oh, really? Really? How do you know that? Right.

Because that goes to the USM teaching. Because I don't. Right. I don't know. And therefore, like, oh, it shouldn't have happened. Oh, she didn't get to live. And she, you know, it's like, well, maybe she wasn't meant to. Right.

You know, like, if I get to choose what I hold onto the framework of how I hold this experience. And the framework with which I hold this experience is going to shape my interaction and experience of it, then I'm going to choose into what feels good to me and what feels good to me. And what feels good to me is knowing that we didn't know about the court insertion. We didn't know that turning her with a court insertion like that would compromise her. We didn't have any idea. We did the best we could. We made the choices that we did.

We picked the team that we picked. Everyone was super qualified. It's like, and this happened. And this is life. Right. This is life. There's such massive lessons in your whole experience. I'm like mind blown by all of it.

you know, like the lessons in like what you're talking about. Like you didn't know it a compromiser, but potentially it did. And like living with that and processing that, but where you are now, having been through all that, like all of these lessons that you've taken and it's turned into a positive spin to help others, to talk about it, to heal yourself. It's so massive. And the strength that comes from you because of this whole experience, it's electric. Like you can feel it. And it is that I don't think there's anything harder, you know, in the, you know, life than losing a child and going through that. But to do what you've done with it is beautiful. Thank you so much. And to remain a mother. Like I really feel that you're birthing magnolia in this

book, you know? And like that, you know, one of the things they taught us really early on at USM is that our soul chooses its curriculum, right? And if you can buy into that for a moment, she chose. you for a reason, a very specific reason. And there is so much healing that you have to offer and so much strength of heart and wisdom and grace and poetry and beauty that, yes, she's not here, but she's here. Yeah. Yeah. And you know that. And you are one of the most incredible mothers I've ever come across. And in a second, I want you to read us some of your poetry. But like, one of the things that happened not that long ago when Shepard was in the hospital with COVID, you know what I needed?

And I was craving. And Libby wrote me and she said, what do you need from me? And I said, I need a weekly call with you. I need you. And she would show up on that weekly call and pray with me and be there for me and mother me with what I was going through with my child. and every day she'd say what can I do for you and what do you need at the scariest time of my life you mothered and you continue to mother and I'm going to keep on mother oh my god you know what I have and I have on my motherfucker socks

I mean, not even intentionally. Would you just like flip, just flip to somewhere? Because Rachel's never heard your poetry. So it was amazing. The night we got home from the hospital that night, it was like two in the morning. I couldn't sleep. I don't know if it's because I still had the drugs in my body, the potocin or whatever. I was like, but I just, I kept hearing these words in my mind.

and they wouldn't go away. They just kept circulating over and over and over again, over and over again. And finally, I was like, I just, if I write these down, maybe they'll stop and I can go back to sleep. So I got up in the dark, made my way over to my husband's desk, got some paper and a pen, and I went and sat on the bathroom floor, and I just turned the light on in the toilet, and I just sat there, and I just wrote down everything that I was hearing. And then I turned the light off and I went back to bed, and I woke up the next morning,

and I read it out loud and I was like, whoa. And I read it to him and he was like, whoa. And then that just something opened up. And that day, like two more started downloading. Just like, and sometimes it was her voice. Yeah. It was so surreal. My husband feels her energetically.

Like he has a, every day he meditates, an hour and 15 minutes, every day, no exceptions. Wow, an hour and 15 minutes. No exceptions. Amazing. No exceptions. He will wake up. He checks his phone to make sure there are no emergencies. He turns it off.

He goes back into bed. And now I'm 15 minutes. No exception. Sometimes an hour and a half every single day. Wow. And it's in that, in his meditation, in his heart, where he calls to her. And he calls to her to feel her and says, come, come be with me. Come be with me in my heart.

And so his relationship with her now is very like, metaphysical, it's very energetic. And I said, what happens when you call her into your heart? He says it's like, uh, zhuz. It's just like this, if it had a sound, it was like, it was just this feeling of like a surge of energy. And I'll ask her questions, yes, no questions. And I'll sometimes, and he'll get a surge of energy if it's a yes.

And he gets nothing if it's a no. So I was like, wow. So he connects with her that way. I can sort of, I hear her, like when I'm really quiet, I can hear her or on Mother's Day. I'll write to her. I'll just take a pat of paper and I'll write to her and just ask, you know, inwardly, like, is there anything you want to share with me?

I do this with my own mom too. Because a year after Magnolia died, my mom got a brain tumor. She got glioblastoma. It's just like one of the most severe diabolical forms of brain cancer and almost guarantee. Like, I've heard one doctor call G. It's called glioblastoma multi-form, so GBM. And one doctor said, oh, yeah, we used to, we used to, not joke, but we used to talk about glioblastoma in medical school as meaning goodbye, motherfucker. Because it's just, it's very hard to recover from. You're gone. You're gone, you know. So, so mom got glialastoma. One year later.

One year later, and then we did 18 months of treatment and then she passed away. And then a year later, my husband's mom passed away. And within six weeks, his dad completely living on the other side of the country, he passed away too. So in the scope of five years, we lost our daughter, both our mothers and his father. And it was just one initiation after the next, like these death. initiations. And it's like the thing that the death has taught us, really, it's because to distill it down is really how to live, how to live with gratitude and how to live with an open heart and how to

be discerning about like, what am I doing with my time? Who am I investing in? If there's no circuitry in that relationship, gone, got to go. No thank you. No anger, no animosity. Don't have time for it. No, nothing. I need some fucking circuitry here. There's some like carebear energy going out. That's just to come back. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

So this is sort of like my little care bear offering. It's a collection of poems. I never set out to write a book. I really, this was, I set out to heal, and writing was how I healed. And now I do these like little online immersions with writing and teaching people how to transmute grief and whatever they're feeling through, you know, creative self-expression. And we're doing a beautiful retreat this month for 20 women who've experienced pregnancy and infant loss, teaming up with a friend of mine, Nicole Trumphio, who has a really

great company called Bump Suit. And so, you know, she was getting a lot of returns because she makes clothing, maternity clothing, and she noticed there were a lot of returns coming in and the staff. She asked the staff what was going on. And she's like, well, they would buy the clothes. and then they had a miscarriage so they would send the clothes back. So through my experience, her walking through my experience with me and then just seeing all these returns coming back in. She's like, whoa, wait a minute. As a company, we need to be doing more to support these moms.

So what can we do? So we're sort of teamed up to sort of, we're now in discussion of how every October we can use this window of national pregnancy and infant loss to like maybe do events all around the country. country and just get women in a safe space where they can be nurtured and to talk and have these conversations and share about their babies and share about their children and their hopes and their dreams and their grief and to like really move through that in a way that leaves them feeling at the end of the retreat like more alive and deeply connected to themselves.

And so I started sharing my poems as they were coming through with friends and finally someone was like, many people were like, you know, this is these are these not just for you. And I was like, what do you mean? Don't be stingy. What do you mean? And they're like, well, you know, the poems. Like I know they've been very healing for you, but like, what about everybody else?

Like, don't you think like you could make a book or something and maybe share that for other parents. And so I was like, oh, yeah, that might be a good idea. But it just kept coming from all different angles from all different people. So finally I was like, okay. You know, maybe this is maybe this. Maybe this is, not maybe, not maybe, sorry, there she is. Not maybe.

This is the medicine that she gave to me and my husband and this is the medicine that she's come to give to the rest of the world. And I just happened to be the open vessel to receive the words. So in many ways, you know, for so long I was like, I can't let it go. It's not right. It's not perfect. Does it make, will people understand it? Are people going to think I'm a freak?

like that I have a relationship where I write to my daughter and I channel my daughter and like I had all these reservations and the color's not right and like I had all this crap to just me not wanting to share right but um but finally I was like like this is her right this is this is she gets to live in the world now like I get to let go of being stingy and having her for myself but like she gets to live in the world now through these words So I had a friend say like, you know, you're holding onto this book because you think it's not perfect. But I think you know it's perfect just as it is. And I think like if you hold on to this, she's not going to have the experience of really getting to live her mission through these words.

So you have a duty to your daughter to let this go. So this is it. Like my friend designed this beautiful cover. Absolutely gorgeous. And I love the cover because it's like this image of a shadow, which I thought was a really beautiful choice for him. And it sort of ties into the quote on the back, which says in the shadow of the deepest pain I've ever known lies more love than I ever knew possible. In the shadow of the deepest pain I've ever known lies more love than I ever knew possible.

And I just, I couldn't fathom at the time that I could feel the way I feel today and that I could could still have a connection with my daughter and yet be sort of raising her in a different way, like just keeping that relationship, you know, present in my life. We celebrate all her birthdays and on her first birthday we planted a big magnolia tree in the front yard and we, every year we build an altar with roses and flowers and incense and we sit under the tree and her first birthday fell on Thanksgiving day. How's about that? How's about it? How's about that? Thanksgiving Day. She's her first birthday. So we had all our friends come over and we wrote what we were grateful for and we just hung them in the tree like hundreds of little prayers. Everyone just wrote

a handful of things they were thankful for. But I'm very thankful for all the people that have helped me sort of bring this book into fruition. And I'm so excited to share it with you guys. But it's poetry. So it takes about an hour to read cover to cover. But I thought I could just sort of like open it up. Yeah, just open it up. Yeah. Okay, so this is titled This Holy Labor. We give birth day and night, night and day.

Each thought and feeling our silent becoming. Are we even conscious of all the ways we nourish or diminish this holy labor? God in these hands. I felt you there in her silence. I saw the miracle, even in her stillness. No book could describe no way to this knowing, God in these hands. That's what I felt when I was holding her was like the holiest experience of like the stillness, the peace, the quite, everything I'd been searching for was there right in my hands. It just felt like we have no idea like how amazing we are.

We have no idea how special we are. I think we forget time and time again. Like we wake up and we move into our routine and we forget like what a miracle it is to be alive. And it wasn't, it took holding her, holding death in my hands for me to realize like I wasn't living. Yeah. And so that was sort of the, that's, I think that's death's invitation really. It's like, yeah, like to take an assessment. What is it when you get sober where you take an assessment of your life? Inventory. An inventory. Yeah. Motherhood, against my naked chest, I held her lifeless body. I dissolved into nothing. The light I couldn't find in someone else's

dogma I saw in her beautiful face. Her death is a holy tapestry, stitched. into this body. This is not a tragedy. All day I peer through the windows watching you. All afternoon, I am the wind by your side. These whispered words, don't try to control your tears. Let them come. Looking for answers. only leads to more questions. Let the words come. What if you can hear me? Then what? Don't let your mind tell you otherwise. You know what you know. This is not a tragedy. The tragedy is letting this consume your life. The tragedy is getting to the end, never having recovered. The tragedy are all the days lost in your searching. Remember, remember how the grief shattered you, uncovered the love you

had hidden from yourself. Remember, remember, remember, remember how grateful you were. You kept saying it over and over and over again. You felt the significance of what was happening, even though you didn't like it. You found beauty. You found beauty in that dark place. You found a freedom you'd never known. You found love. You found love. You found love. of this is not a tragedy. This is Libby. It just comes. It just comes.

So beautiful. She comes. She comes to me. You know, it's, this one's really lovely too. It's called the Revelation. What say you of this grief? Holy.

What say you of this rage? Holy. What say you of this death? Holy. What say you of this disaster, this inability to stand, this devouring fire, the hopelessness that scratches at my insides? Holy. Holy, holy, holy.

Holy, holy, holy shit. Holy motherfucker. Yeah, but it is that, Libby, it's like, there was one moment in my life, one moment in my life where I felt a warmth inside of my body that is unexplainable. And that was when my dad died. And there was a warmth and a peace that took over me. That's what I'm talking about. That felt, I remember my tears were coming out and it almost felt like warm blood. Like there was a, like I got this like warmth that took me over.

And for the first time in my life, I felt peace. And it was, and I never felt it again. right but the only time i've ever felt that even holding the babies no of course the tremendous amount of love and all of that but that feeling yeah to me i call it god universe spirit whatever it is in that moment i knew there was something else and you can't take that away from someone once they've felt that. And that's, there is something incredibly beautiful in that. Yeah.

And I do believe, like I do in my heart and soul that we choose these things for a reason. I don't know what they are and I don't want to ask the questions because it brings more questions. But to evolve maybe to evolve, to understand, have more greater compassion. But it makes me. you know, hearing you say this, like for today, I went, oh yeah, I want to be alive today. Right. I want to be alive today.

And that's why these things are so healing because it's not just for parents that have lost a child. It's for all of us that go to sleep. You know, we all go to sleep in different times in our life and go through pain and go through sorrow and go through grief. None of us get out of it alive, right? And it's a wake-up call to what matters. And the more we can wake up to that every day, the greater sense of purpose we have and the more alive we are. Because it is a gift.

And we don't know when it's going to go and we don't know. Yeah, we all assume we're going to live to like we're 90 or whatever. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know nothing. We know nothing. Yeah. And we're pissing away these precious moments.

You know what I mean? You have those moments where you're like, catch yourself, like, five hours have gone by and you're like, what just happened? When is that time ago? Five years. Five years. Yeah. Yeah.

What am I waiting for? What am I waiting for? Why are we waiting? Yeah. And even when you said, like, you questioned, like, oh, is it going to sound, you know, whatever. I'm like, God, we all do that. Even with these tremendous gifts inside that you have to offer the world that could help. Keele tons of women not feel so alone. The mind comes in and is like,

right. Keep it in your fucking journal. Like keep it to yourself. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. Right. Yeah. I was going to say I had a beautiful therapist that I was working with and she would always tell me like, you keep putting yourself back in the ring. And that is living life. Right. Like no matter what the outcome, she's like, you can survive anything. As long as, You keep putting yourself back in the ring. And every time, and so every time I'm going through something, I remember that. And I'm like, fuck, this hurts.

But you know what? I went for it again. I keep showing up in my life again because otherwise, like you said, it's just going to pass by. And then you look back and then. And that's a tragedy. That's a tragedy. That's the tragedy. That's the tragedy.

Yeah, exactly. But what a gift that you now, that's, she's given you, that the experience has given you, what's come through you. Now you're putting it out there. And like you said in the beginning, how it's something that people, you know, it's uncomfortable to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. But what is bigger to have gone through than that? Yeah. And like to feel alone in that or the grief you feel in that, but to feel like if there is a community or other people that can relate or you can share or you can help heal, I think these are the most important things to talk about. Yeah. And what do we miss?

out on when we don't have these conversations, what do we miss out on? Don't you think it's weird that we spend so much time preparing to give birth? Like we read all these books, we watch all these videos, we have all these doctor's appointments, we go to meditation, we learn about hypnosis, some people, you know, like we do all this preparation for bringing life into the world. But like how much preparation do we do on the other side? Like the other bookend of this experience called our life is death. Right. And we spend all the this time preparing for birth. And yet on the flip side, probably the second most powerful, if not the most powerful experience of our lives, the second most power. I don't know,

is our death. Right. Is our death. We don't, we do it. Avoid it. Avoid it. Avoid it. Right. Right. But like there are so many amazing books and Tibetan texts and like there's a way I think in which if we could open ourselves more to understanding the inevitability of the dissolution of this physical experience. It's coming for all of us. Yeah. Like how to meet that moment. Like I want to meet that moment with so much presence and consciousness. That's available to me in softness.

And like, and I think, like, just even watching my mom in preparation and edging towards to meeting that moment, there was a part of her that was like so, like, it's even in here. She said to me, this is in the epilogue, I had this conversation with my mom. It was so powerful. She said she wasn't afraid of dying and I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, and she said, well, in my meditation, like, she had this experience in her meditations. And I was like, tell me more about that. What do you mean? The most memorable talk I had with my mom during her sickness was about dying. I remember sitting in her room in palliative care one day,

and out of the blue, she said to me, I want you to know, honey, that I'm not afraid of dying. She continued saying that in her meditation, she was becoming aware of herself as pure energy, an infinite energy not bound by this body. She described this energy as a warm, golden light. And she said it felt one, She said that she was unafraid because she was starting to realize this energy was who she really was.

And this energy, quote, never ends. She said, I'm not afraid to die because I'm just opening and closing the door. And when I asked her to tell me more about that, she said, death is like opening a door and walking through to the other side. when I close my eyes, when I close that door, I will no longer be Joan. I will no longer be who I think I am, but I will remember who I have always been, this energy that is everywhere and everything. In the years that I have unfolded since Magnolia and my mother's death, I've come to realize that I can choose to live each day in gratitude for the time.

I got to share with them or I can dismantle my life and let everything I love fall to the wayside because of what happened to them. Yeah. And that's the choice point, right? That's the choice point. This is a tragedy or this is an experience that's really fucking gnarly and harsh and the hardest thing I've ever been through in my whole life. And maybe there's something in this for me. Maybe there's an opportunity here for me, you know, maybe there's a gift hidden in this devastation, you know. Because like, like, yeah, if anyone was going to sign up for it, it would be her. I can just see all the souls and she'll be like, oh, do it.

Like, I literally see Libby being like, I'll do it. I can do this. I'll be the mom. Yeah. You be the daughter. I'll be the mom. Yeah. We'll write this writing that's going to help heal.

But that's an enriched life. That's a life looking for purpose and looking for every opportunity to make something out of it versus every opportunity to be completely broken. And I don't know. You're the one on the other end of it saying that there is a choice. And I don't think a lot of people know that there's a choice in that. Because I think it's so blinding that they may not feel that there's an opportunity. to have a choice in that. Yeah, I get it. I was definitely in that place. I mean, it's been,

it will be nine years this November. She would have turned nine this year. It's the same exact age as my daughter. Wow. And I just look at little girls now and I'm like, oh my God, what would she, what would her voice sound like? And what would her hair? Like, what would it feel like to run my fingers to it and like to like dress her and buy her things? And so we're getting ready to do a beautiful book launch. When are you doing it? So we're doing it, we're doing like a small gathering for like the people who are really sort of there in the beginning for us. I sent the invite out last night. You should be getting it. You should have it in your inbox. But yeah, we're doing it on this beautiful rooftop in this amazing healing oasis. Oh, you told me about that. Yeah.

In the like overlooking the Hollywood Hills, it's like it's sunset with like lights and candles and like Moroccan style rugs and like I'll read from the book and I have a friend that's going to come and sing some songs. And we're basically going to just bless. the book, we're going to make an altar and pile the books and some crystals and flowers. And it'll be the new moon, which is sort of like a nice portal to sort of send intentions out. So we're just going to gather people to light a candle to honour someone they've lost. And then also just to sort of put some good energy into the book before we send it out into the world.

And I decided to self-publish because the whole route of like looking for an agent, looking for a problem. I was just like, no, I got to get these out now. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be a traditional, like, rollout. But so we've made this book. I found a really great company. And coincidentally, it's called Book Baby. Oh.

So I was looking at different vendors and I was like, oh, Book Baby. That's kind of cute. So I'm rolling it out through them and it'll be available on their platform. It will be available on Amazon. But I really want to channel everyone to Book Baby because we are donating 100% of the proceeds of this book to every mother counts. It was an organization that was created by Christy Tillington. And so when we're looking for an organization to donate to, there are a lot within America, but I was like, no, this needs to be global. We need to find somebody who's on

the ground in the trenches, working with mothers in remote villages, like everywhere. Like every mother counts. Every baby counts. So we're donating 100% of the proceeds to them. So if people are the book through book baby. I get 50%. Oh no. I get more than 50%. I get a lot of royalties, which then I can send on to these guys that are doing such great work. And I think that's what that's what Mike Noliet would want. We're so grateful that you came today and shared so openly and beautifully. What's so easy with you too. I was just saying like, it's like, we're going to have fun, but then we're going to talk about some really heavy shit. We're going to cry.

We'll have more fun later. Yeah. Like, we'll do this again. Yeah. And we'll have more fun. Oh, you know what would be amazing would be to have, uh, Steve, come on. I was thinking that. I was like, you need to talk to him.

Yeah, you said that. He's amazing. I mean, everyone calls him Scooter. That's his, like, nickname. Yeah. But like, when we started dating, I was like, I can't call you Scooter anymore. That's so weird. Because that's like, when I was his friend, I was like, yeah, Scooter's my friend.

Yeah. We're friends. And then we were dating. I'm like, it's not sexy to call you Scooter. You know, like, it's like insane. Can you make out? Like, that's so weird. Let's do a little writing evening at Libby.

Let's do a little like writing routine. Yeah, that would be lovely. And, you know, it's amazing because, see, in this realm of this conversation around pregnancy loss, every book that I've come across so far, every single one is all written from the perspective of the mother. And there's a whole other part of the equation that gets left out. And often, like, during the grieving, everyone would be like, how is she doing? Right.

How are you? How is she? And he's sort of like, yeah, she's okay. She's doing okay. And then it's just sort of like, you know, what about me? And it's interesting, like, I had finished the book. We had put it, it was in its manuscript form. and we were formatting it.

And then I was cleaning his desk one day. And I saw this like notepad. And I saw our daughter's name several times in his handwriting. And I was like, honey, what is this? And he's like, oh, that's some writing that Angela had me do. And she's our therapist. And I was like, well, what is it? And she said, oh, that's my story.

And I said, your story. And he said, yeah, she wanted to know what it was like for me to be. in that room that night and to hold your hand and to kneel down at the side of the bed and to like deal with my own pain along with my work and and that's my story and I said can I read it and he said yeah and it's like pages and pages and he would loop back because it was like he would loop back into something that I felt like he was just trying to digest and it was so beautiful and so humbling and it just like brought me to my knees to see. that experience through his eyes. And I said, could you please, would you please give me permission

to put this in the book? And he said, well, but what do you mean? And I said, well, it's so important for men to know that it's okay to be vulnerable. And this is the most vulnerable thing that I've ever read. And I think it could really help not just fathers feel not alone in their journey, but also the mothers and the partners, you know, the partners. What the other partner is dealing with. And so it's in the book. It closes out. It's after the last poem and it's titled The Father's Thoughts.

And it's very beautiful. So it's got my energy, his energy, her energy. It's like a family offering. Yeah. So thank you so much for letting me dive in with you and have this conversation. Absolutely. I'm so grateful that you did. And we can't wait for everyone to read your beautiful poetry. And now I really want to read his perspective because I think that's...

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Oh, my God, amazing. Yeah, I'm going to get over the fact that the filter on the cover is not as colorful. It's not a bright and vibrant as it should be. I think it's perfect. I love it. It's beautiful.

Yeah, this one's a little brighter. But whatever, it's really, it's funny. Like, I was fiddling around with it. Often Magnoli would come in and be like, it's like, people are going to turn it. And then like, they're not going to look. We don't even care. Yeah. It's beautiful, Libby.

As are all of your sharing and offerings. Thank you so much. And there's some photos in there of her as well, of me and him and her and my mom. Really? Yeah, there's a very powerful moment. We were all waiting for Steve to hold her. Yeah. Because I was holding her and then I'd offered a few times.

And he said, no, I think I'm going to wait. I think, you know. And it was just this. moment of like everyone had held her except him. And he, the midwife said, come here. And she took him out into the hallway. And she said, what's going on? And he said, I can't do it. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't. I can't bring myself to do it. If I, if I hold her, I'm never going to be able to let her go. And if I hold her, I'm never going to, I will never, I think it's best if I just don't hold her. And she said, listen to me. I know you. You need to go in there and you need to hold your

baby because if you don't you are going to regret this for the rest of your life yeah and he said okay okay okay so he's like so what do i do like do i put her on my skin and she said yeah so he unbuttoned his shirt and he opened his shirt and then he like held her on his body and so there's a there's a picture of him just sort of like holding her all bundled up in there and it's just a very very powerful moment. Yeah, but it's, yeah. It's a never-ending love story, really. It's like, well, what is your book about?

It's kind of like it's a love story. What do you mean a love story? It's like, well, it's the love that created her, right? That was so unreal. What was it like when you held your baby for the first time, like, looking at, like, because it's like your love and his love came together. like you created that child is born out of the deepest expression of your love and holding that manifestation of your love in physical form in your hands is just like so mind-blowing right but like it is a

love story it's a story of love love coming into being and love leaving and then the love that was left behind the love that continues on like it never ends it just never ends and there's nothing in this world that can stop this love, the love you feel for your father, the love I feel for my mother, like the love that we share for one another. And I think the biggest invitation in this experience, in any experience in our lives, and we're challenged, is to go inside and really love ourselves. I think that's one of the biggest life lessons I've been working on is loving yourself, But not just loving yourself when things are good, but like loving the grief, loving the anger, loving the rage. Like, well, I don't want to love that.

I don't want to love that part of myself. But it's like, that's not love then. Right. That's conditional. Yeah. Like, love is saying yes to it all. Yeah. Yeah.

Just get showing up in that ring. Oh, are you okay? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

That's it. I really appreciate this. simplicity of that image because you're either in the ring or you're out of it. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was something so simple and she said it to me so many times and I was like, fuck, I'm in that ring a lot. The ring of fire? Yeah. That too. That too. Yeah. That's so true. Well, this has been amazing. Amazing. It's been incredible. And I'm going to go online and order my copy. We'll leave that one with Rachel. Yeah. I'm still ordering one supporting from a book book. baby. Yeah, just the proceeds go.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, but thank you so much, Libby. I love you for having me. I love you too. I love the work you're doing as well. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, guys, I don't really know how we follow that conversation in our usual way because we definitely talk about silly stuff, light stuff, but maybe that's okay too. It's just, it was such an impactful conversation. Yeah. That I don't really know where we go from here. Well, I will tell you this, if it makes any difference to you. One of the things I love

most about Libby is while she's deep, poetic, all of those amazing things, she's also funny as fuck and can find the beats and the humor in life when things get dark and tough. And so in the honor of that, yeah. Let's get silly. Hi, Rob. Enter Rob. Enter Rob. All right. Well, how's everyone's week been? Ooh, Olivia, that's a heavy week. She got some stuff. She got some stuff. I have a lot of physical anxiety this week.

I had a lot of anxiety this week. You always do, so let's unpack hers first. Sure. Question. Do you ever get anxiety? Yeah. So the calmest anxiety I've ever seen about it. Yeah.

It's the most casual anxiety ever. Yeah. Just right now. Yeah. And that's fucking spinning right now. So this week, my anxiety has been really heightened. Physical anxiety, like having a hard time breathing, all of that stuff, right? And Jeff says it's because you're worrying too much.

And I'm like, I don't really. I'm sorry. Say that word again? Worrying. Okay. How did I say it? Worry. You were like worrying.

I don't know. You said it funny. Oh, did I say it funny? Okay, continue. Does that make you anxious when she corrects it? I can't breathe. I am the Ross. I correct everything.

He said it's because you've been worrying too much this week. Hmm. I don't believe that it's attached to worrying. I think sometimes I get physical anxiety, and it's not like there's thoughts that are provoking it. I would like to hear your guys' thoughts on that. You're saying it's not thought-provoked? I don't feel like it's that I'm having these, like, thoughts that are giving me anxiety.

I feel like the anxiety is just physically present. I mean, I think anxiety can be induced by like not sleeping enough, not getting enough physical activity. Like I have days and times where I feel off and anxious or low. And it's usually from that, not just that. Not just thoughts, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

See, I agree. What about you? 100%. I'll wake up with anxiety for no reason. and when I haven't even had a thought. Once the last time you woke up without anxiety. I wake up without anxiety a lot of the time. Okay.

Just checking. I just wanted to get like a baseline for every one. Would you say I'm always like an anxious person? Honestly. You experience overwhelm a lot. Overwhelmed? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

You're always like I'm overwhelmed. Well, I am overwhelmed. That's what I mean by experiencing overwhelmed. Hmm. See, I wonder if collectively, because of what's going on in the world, whether I'm thinking about it or not, that it affects my energy and my motor. We're looking to Rob when he's like, I believe you think that. But do you think there's anything to that? Do you think there's things like collective energy?

Because everybody I've talked to this week, I'm like, how are you? Really anxious. This week, I feel like everyone, the same for me. It's like heavy, anxious, something. Right. Not for Rob. No, I mean, it's because there's heavy stuff all over the news, right? Right.

Everyone is, I don't think people, I think everyone is aware of what's going on, and that's making them anxious. Yeah. I just, what, something that was brought up in a recent conversation was, you know, how open and communicative Elliott's school is about all world matters and everything going on in the world, no matter what it is, and they're very open with the kids about it. They're open. Are they opinionated? Are they just informative?

They're not opinionated. They have things where they're writing us daily letters and offering us support on how to talk to our children about it, how to birth. The school does that. These things. And then the kids are talking about it with each other. though. So Elliot came home and he said to me, he said he had a really hard day and I said why. And he said a friend of mine was really sad because her culture is at war. And I said, okay, let's talk about that.

So we sat down with him and we had a conversation of what that means and what's going on and what we can do as loving citizens to offer some sort of support for his friends that are going through really big feelings. But I will say, I realized that he got to it before we did. And that was something I was like, oh, wow. Like, it didn't occur to me that I should sit down and talk to him about this before he goes to school because they're going to be talking about it. Right. Right. Have you guys had those conversations? No. I mean, yeah, I guess at what age is that feel appropriate?

I lean a little too heavy on, I don't... Protecting. Yeah, I'm more of the like, they don't need to... I mean, I think it's also kid dependent. It's my kid, though. Breyer and Calvin are very sensitive. Very sensitive. Where Elliot...

Like anything. Like her cousin. was telling her a story how a kid got chopsticks stuck in the roof of their mouth on the bus. And I'm like, she's never going to use chopsticks. You know what I mean? She's just very sensitive. Is she going to use chopsticks? I don't know. She didn't at dinner the other night? She didn't? No, she didn't. Oh, no, wait. That's when she told her. But that's when they told her. So I don't know. We have tested it since then. I think she's fine. But that's just an example of like how she takes things in. She's such an empath and so sensitive. Well, you have to understand their emotional intelligence and what they can handle. I think so. But do you think it's also you, like, not presenting these things is keeping her that sensitive as opposed to, like, the more exposure. Yeah. Yeah, you guys chopsticks stuck up your nose.

I question it, but then I'll do things just casually like, yeah, you know, and explain it. And then it's like, I hear about it for the next few months. And she's like really trying to understand it. And like, but having a really hard time. And I don't know. I don't know. It's still a work in progress. Yeah, I get it. I think it's purely an age thing, though, because if, like, Calvin was 15, I would have no problem. Well, yeah. That'd be so weird. Well, I know. And we talk to him like he's an adult most of the time. But if we know things are going to affect him differently.

Yeah. Then. But we didn't sit down and be like, hey, Elliot, let's get ahead of this and talk to you about this. He came home because of his peers. Yeah, I mean, school throws a wrench and everything. It throws a wrench in everything. It does. And I, you know, maybe.

she'll come home today with something that she learned at school and then you talk about it. That's kind of child-led. Right. Yeah. It's tricky though. It doesn't seem proactive enough for you, is what you're... I would have loved... You would have loved to have the conversation first. I would have the conversation first so that when his friend did come to him, he had a little bit of understanding of what was going on and not being completely like what? Yeah, he was caught off guard. He was caught off. He was caught off guard and he had a lot of... really rough couple days over it. Well, some of these topics are very complex and hard to process and understand, you know, for anyone, but also young minds, I think, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. I don't know. School. Sometimes I'm like, do I just, do we just do Teresa Palmer style and like. No school? No, they go to school.

But just, I mean, you know. Palm school. No, they go to school too. But it's just, it's a little more fluid, you know, and it's not, I don't know. It's, it's, you can't protect them from life. They're going to live their life. You can give them the tools to try to navigate it, but that in itself is challenging. Yeah.

Yeah. Tough man. All right. Any fuel house. So today, I said something to Shepard because he was being like a little, little brat. And I said, hey, I made you. And then Elliot's like, did you eat our embryos? And I was like, what?

He's like, well, did you eat our embryos? Like, is that what happens? You eat the embryo and then you grow the baby and then you have the baby come out of you? And I... You said yes. I said every last... I didn't know what to say

because I haven't had that conversation yet with him. About sex and how it happened? Yeah, of like the actual this is what... I know Jeff would. Jeff would be like, well... Yeah, Calvin has had the, like, clinical version of it. The penis goes in the vagina? Yeah.

Really? Interesting. He was, like, four, I think he asked. And we were like, yeah, this is it. Yeah. I'm wondering. I think it's time for Elliot, to be honest. I think telling him at that time, though, it, like, didn't really mean much to him either.

And it was just a very, like, scientific, this is what's happening. And there wasn't a lot of baggage or weight behind it. Yeah. Which now you might have a little more. Hmm. You haven't told Breyer. She doesn't really ask the questions often. Right.

She asks her mom. Wait a something. No. Rachel, do you know how babies are? She does ask. I have this video of her at three years old getting so frustrated because I couldn't explain where, like, humans came from. I tried to, you know, scientific. She was three.

And she gets very frustrated not having a grasp on it. It's a really funny video. I want to see it. Calvin was, Calvin was reading like Yuval Harari's kid's book on evolution. You got it for Breyer. You guys have both read it, right?

Yeah. Do you mean? Sapiens? Yeah. The real one? Not the real one. No, he got it. The kids version.

Yeah, yeah. You read it to your children? Not yet. But Elliot's reading now so he can read it. Should you give him that? It's next to his bed. Then he'll know. Yeah.

Calvin loved it. Yeah. I mean, he has a scientific mind because he did. I did say the other day he's like, he was like, can't say it. He was like, can you explain to me what is a vagina? And I said, it's a vagina. It's where, you know, you know how you have a penis and the pee comes out and it's outside of your body.

Ours is like inside and comes out. And he's like, but is it, does he? He said, doesn't look like strawberry. our dogs. He's like, does it look like her little, her little, her little, her little, her little butt hole? He said that little fat little

butt hole that's, I died. I was like, I don't know to say, kind of. That fat little buttole. Does it look like a fat? Fat little butt hole? Yeah, because it's like she's got her butt hole and then she's

got this fat little. Oh, the little like, it's like a, it's like a turkey's like Yeah, it's like a little vagina. And he's like that fat little butthole thing next to her butt, you know. He's like, is that? You need to also show him or teach him what a butthole looks like. He was like, is that what it looks like? And he was like, how many holes are there? And I was like, oh my God, there's a urethra. And then there's a hole where the baby comes out. And he was just about to ask, can I see it? And I was like, what do you do? Do I go like Google a diagram? Yeah. That's what you do, right?

You don't. Oh my God, Rachel. Could you imagine? Do you think anyone's ever done that? I don't know. I mean, I'm sure someone's done it. Ooh. I don't know.

Also, you don't just pull up like barn hub either. No, but also you have drawn. Yeah, I know. Like an anatomy picture. And if we're ranking the wrong things to do, first is showing your own vagina. Oh, my. Second is pulling up for a hug. That's different position because I have a girl.

That's different. That's the same thing, you know, but still like. Of course that's different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, can I see it? Well, she asked about a penis before.

Well, she's probably seen a penis. She's like, yeah. The penises are out. You know what I mean? Like a vagina is more mysterious where like, like, you have to like, you'd have to like, you know, go in. there. What are you looking at a giant's vagina?

To look up inside. Well, if you think about like a kid in the shower with you, like, they don't know what your inside of a vagina looks like. Because you don't see it. That's what I mean. You see a penis. I hope. I mean, if you can't see your penis. She's the only

female in a house full of like 10 men. Yeah. There's literally. They're just all over. Men. And so he was like it's got to be like strawberries the fat little butt

oh I have a good one someone wrote us this really made me happy and I was like I got to share that with them you know how we put the video of like do you tell someone if they have food in their teeth they have food in their teeth oh yeah this girl wrote in and said that her dad didn't have the heart to tell some women at the airport that he wasn't a taxi driver so he drove him all the way.

That's amazing. I love him. I was like, that is next level. He didn't want to tell them. No, so he just gave him where I know. But was he there to pick up his own family members? I don't know. I wonder if I could find it.

It was so good. That's so funny. What, Rob, what do you have? Got a question. What? All right. How do I, a 36-year-old male and a relationship with a person, 32 female, who refuses to leave my house? Ooh.

My girlfriend 32 has been. living with me, 36, at my house for a year and a half. I have a teenage daughter from my previous marriage that stays with us half the time. My girlfriend is less mature than a typical 32-year-old, and lately has been openly confrontational with my daughter. This relationship is not working. I've clearly told her that we're done several times, and several times she's refused to leave the house.

Sitting now that she lives here as well, will not leave, and several days later we make up. I hate the situation and would like to live on my own for a bit instead of a toxic relationship that I am in. How do I end it? Change the locks. Literally. Change the locks. Change the locks. She's squatting, dude.

Yeah, but they make up, which means they're... But don't make up with her. Yeah, he needs to stop doing that. Yeah. Step one. But if she's refusing, I mean, that's weird. That's not okay. It's not okay.

Unless she doesn't have anywhere to go, then you say... He should say, hey, you know, he could help her out. Yeah. Off her support. Like, what do you need to figure this out? Yeah. I'll help you. You have 30 days.

Sounds like she's not accepting any of these. Yeah, I know. That's the thing. That's why I say change the locks. If she's not accepting it, then you change the locks. She has squatters right to stuff. She's going to, like, force herself in at that point, come home and the daughter comes home. Then you move.

Then you move. You move. You sell your house and you move. Yeah, you move. that's practical yeah well what else are you gonna do you call the cops

they're gonna be like she has every right to be here if she lives here they're squatters rights in California I don't know if that applies right

you don't know where they are that's a interesting my biggest thing is that she's trying to say things to the daughter yeah when I read that I was like that

no you don't step over those boundaries as far as I'm concerned oh no Right? No. Right. What if she was like, I'm fine with it.

I'm fine with it. Yeah. My man comes first. Never. I don't know. No. You got it. She's got to go.

So what would you do? I would probably, if I had the means to do so, just get an apartment, have it all set up. Be like, you have a place to stay. You're gifting this person in an apartment? No, just for like an Airbnb, whatever. Not like a lease that you're on for a year. But fine. I get them a place to stay.

You're going to put your credit card down on that? And you're going to be liable for any damages to this new Airbnb? I'm just, I'm helping you think these things. Okay. But just having an option and a solution might help him out if he has the means to do so, is all I'm saying. And if he doesn't. buy your house. And if you don't have the means for that.

No, I don't know. That's tough. Because if you're dealing with a person that's not accepting it, how would you get her house? Yeah, what would you do? I would change the locks. I mean, it's all those steps. It's like you try to have the conversation of, like, you need to leave. This is not okay.

And then if that doesn't work, you bring it a mediator. And then if that doesn't work, when she leaves, you pack up some stuff. Yep. Put it in store. Dinge the locks. Because like assuming, you know, this person has nowhere to go. You put their stuff in storage. That's what I would do.

You get some nice bins and put them on your front yard. Yeah, but then what have people taken? Have you ever gotten so mad at someone that you put their stuff out on the front yard like they do in the movies? No. Have you? Yeah. Have you? No.

No. Care to elaborate? I was young and I got really up. upset and I put you were living with this person yeah fully both on the lease no lease young I mean they were living with me you is your lease though your apartment they were squatting yeah yeah they were living with me and they upset me what can we talk about what upset you they did they were partying and didn't come home and I was like staying up they missed curfew and you miss curfew and you through their belongings?

Was it the first time? Was this like the third time it happened? No, it was multiple times. He would like to stay out really late and party and be like, I'll be home in an hour. And then hours would go by. I would be watching the news to see if he like got in a car accident and died. Because I'd be like, how could he?

And then it would be like five, six in the morning. He'd come home. And then I'd be like, your shit's outside. Was it like neatly packed in something or just? garbage bags. Okay. It was kinder than the movies is usually like scattered clothes. Yeah, I was picturing scattered all over the lawn.

No. And what happened then? We're still together. No. You got pregnant also? I mean, I think it never really turned into anything. He always got, he always just came back in and brought the bags back in the house. Oh, so you didn't change the locks or?

I didn't change the locks or anything. No. Didn't barricade the door. Well, I didn't really want him gone. You know what I mean? That's the problem. That, I think, is the difference between this guy and my previous situation. Yeah, this guy sounds like he's done.

Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to be done to prove a point that it's not acceptable behavior, but I didn't really want to be done. It was just a point. No, I was just angry. She was proving a point. I was proving a point. I was like doing the Beyonce.

say thing. Everything you want in a box to the left. What would Jeff have to do to get that right now? I think there's only one thing Jeff would have to do to get that. Sleep with the secretary? Yeah. That's it. That's it? Sleep with someone? Yeah. Anyone. Anyone. Yeah, it doesn't have to be the secretary. It could be anyone. If he cheated on her. That would be the only thing that would merit something like that. Do you think you could ever get over him cheating on you? I don't.

I really don't. No. Even, like, is there a circumstance or scenario in which, like, there's the drunken one-night stand? And then there's the-we always argue about this. And then there's the long-term relationship or, like, secret fall in love. Oof. Emotional. Here we go again.

Sexual. We always argue about that. I know. We differ. Oh, yeah. We are aligned up this one, and you're just, you're done either way. She's done if it's physical at all. But you're, okay, okay.

And then I, the question. I think Jeff would be done too, to be honest. Like, I don't think Jeff would tolerate that or forgive me if I did that. How far are you willing for an emotional relationship to go? Nowhere. I mean, I don't think to me, like we've said, it's not as, that's not as damaging to me as sleeping with someone. because how far would have to go like flirting him telling someone he tells someone he's in love with them is not as damaging as sleeping with someone that he didn't care about no because to me that's fantasy so you're fine with that's real until you've consummated the we so strongly disagree on this you'd be okay with the like I would not be okay with it you you I'm just saying one more forgivable to me a meaningless doesn't have feelings for it. just literally the physical act is worse than him falling in love with someone else.

There's meaning behind it. There's no such thing as meaningless when he knows how deeply it would devastate me. And he made that choice. That is a very meaningful choice he made. That's not what my example is literally like, let's say he was still drinking and not thinking about it and just did a physical act. He had a trip to Vegas. relapse. Just not nothing attached to it, just a physical

act. I'm not defending it because I'm not saying I'd be okay with that, but I'm just trying to prove the point that like in that. No attachment. Yeah. No attachment and I think is our point physical one. Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine because he doesn't drink. Like if he was drinking, I think anyone that's, I think anyone's capable of cheating. I don't think there's any such thing as like, no, when people are like so and so would never. I'm like, I don't buy that.

I think everyone is capable of cheating. And I think if you add alcohol to the mix, everyone's even a little bit more capable. And so I take great comfort in the fact that he doesn't drink. Honestly, I don't know if I could even be in a relationship with him if he drank. We're just talking hypotheticals, though. Yeah, but hypothetically, if he drank, I wouldn't trust him as much. But you were with him for a long time while he was drinking. Yeah.

And if he would go to Vegas and get. drunk, I would get fucking pissed. Because it's not about him. I don't trust alcohol. And it's so hardcore about certain things that you can't. There's no penetrating. Well, the hard part is like, I hope

I never have to deal with that. Right. I mean, I think we all hope we don't. Yeah. So you'd think you'd move fast it. I don't, I don't, I think the question was more which one is, would be harder for you to get that. Which one would be harder for you?

The emotional, like a longer-term emotional one versus a quick drunken fling. Which one do you think would be easier for you to have? Easier for me to have? Yeah. Like, which one could you see yourself? I don't drink either. Like slipping into quicker. I think it would be easier for me to have an emotional affair than a physical one.

I would too. But we're also both attic-y mindsets. I'm sure there's some. like love addiction and relationship addiction that we both crave. Right. What about you? Do you think it'd be easier for you to do emotional?

100%. Oh. She's like, I'm in one right now. I'm in one right now. This is great common for me because I'm not married, so like I can't really answer. Yeah, but you've been in many very long-term committed serious relationships. Oh, right. So what's the actual question?

it be easier for you to fall into an emotional affair or a physical affair? I think emotional. Well, I mean, I think that's for almost anyone. An emotional one is easier because it feels less. It's a much more gradual thing that would be happening that you can make excuses for. Yeah. Versus like, I went to the bar and picked someone up and then we went into the bathroom. Like, those are very quick escalating steps.

Yeah. To it versus, like, a friendship, then slowly transforming into something more emotionally deep. Yeah. I guess, I guess. I think my biggest thing is because I really, like, prefer, like, an emotional connection if the physical is going to happen as well. So it's not like I'm even someone that would. You wouldn't have.

never connect you with someone unless you're going to fuck them. No, it's not what I'm saying. You would only have a physical relationship with someone if there wasn't an emotional connection. What I'm saying is that is my preference. Emotional connection. Yeah. Yeah. Not mine.

No, I'm just kidding. I'm not saying shit anymore. You're not allowed to say anything. I'm not saying allowed to say anything. Can I tell you guys something really quick before we go? We got this beautiful note saying that, um, who is a girl saying that, um, who is a girl saying that one of her friends had been struggling with something like a body issue or eating issue. And because of her listening for the past year to our podcast, she got so much more comfortable with having

uncomfortable conversations and talking about things that people don't normally talk about, that she had the courage to talk to her friend about it and now her friend's getting help. And she relates that back to the things that we bring up here and talk about. That is... that is the so you can't stop otherwise. I'm not gonna have I been quiet?

Yeah. Oh. The last like three, four months. Really? Yeah. Okay, I'm not quiet guys.

I love you both. I love what we do here. I have to go pick up Breyer. Yeah, we're gonna do an episode next week about Rachel's relationships. Yeah. We're gonna do a deep dive and do

how much time do we have? That was a head gum podcast. podcast.