Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Lit Broads Book Club: The Sharper Your Knife with Stephanie Danler

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

Rachel and Olivia chat with author Stephanie Danler about her journey writing Sweetbitter, the importance of self-care as a mom, and the details of their new project together, The Sharper Your Knife, the Less You Cry! Watch the video of this episode here!Like the show? Rate Broad Ideas 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts and SpotifyAdvertise on Broad Ideas via Gumball.fm See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max, and listen to The Hacks podcast, on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. It's my favorite thing. But anyway, we're so happy to have you here. Yes, thanks for having me. I know.

You're just, it's so funny because I was, you know, sweet bitter. We were reading in the book club. And then I decided to like watch the series again too accompanying it. So like I'm just surrounded by you. Yeah, same. My whole, my whole brain. 10 years of my life. Oh my God.

But like all I want to do is be like 20 and move to New York. That's all I want to do right now. I'm like, can I just rewind and maybe do that? Yeah. You know. And when I wrote it in graduate school, the first draft of Sweetbitter and like one of the teachers was like, you know this is like it was very weird in that first draft. It was like very poetic and like elliptical and like not quite a novel yet. He was like, you know, this isn't going to be like a bestseller or anything.

And I was like, no, I know. I just want girls to give it to girls who moved to New York City. I want one set of girls to give it to girls who have just crossed the bridge. That was all I wanted. Like that feeling is it. How do you feel now about him saying that? I mean, I get a little chuckle. Yeah. You want to play that zucchini song?

Yeah. A little like, huh, I guess you were nominated for the Pulitzer, but maybe you don't know about book publishing. I think that's really important, though, that people hear that constantly, is not to listen to anything, right? Totally. Because nobody really knows, like, if we were psychic, then we would all be psychics. I think that in your

our industry my other industry like learning to collaborate and take notes and being like this is a this is a vision between a bunch of artists is just so different from novel writing and when I was in graduate school

it was a really good lesson because that book was workshoped constantly and like every time I would sit down and they'd be like I don't like the main character. I'd be like, okay, what else? They'd be like, well, I don't like the title. And I'd be like, okay, keep going.

Like, are we going to get anywhere? And it was a really good exercise by the time that book was bought by Knaw. I had been defending my vision, but also taking criticism for two years. And like that is kind of foundational. And then it shifts when you get to TV. but it's the same thing. Like, what do you have the hard line around? Like, when someone's like, well, can we just set it in Nevada?

And you're like, no. We cannot keep going. Right. They're like, we love all of this, but have you considered if she was a vampire? Yeah. Totally. And that's what you were just saying, Olivia. Like, no one knows, but you, whoever is making the project.

Right. Right. Can we talk about it for a minute because you're an exceptional writer. And it makes me emotional because the way you capture what it's like to, first of all, what it's like to be a female at that age, what it's like to have your whole life ahead of you and not know what you're doing, the way you captured the 20s. is so dead on that it brought me back to my own, especially because I was a waitress, like every moment of what you were explaining externally and internally at the same time was remarkable, truly. And there was like a loneliness you captured and a hope at the same

time and like just the inner dialogue that's the stuff that I like live for like even the way you explain a hangover I'm like could not be more dead on like is it a bagel no it's toast with no butter it's this it's like those are the kind of like negotiations one goes through in their 20s while also like figuring out um that love is not necessarily pain. It's just, yes, to you, Stephanie. Thank you so much. Thank you. I was like, as when we talked about doing this, I was like, God, I haven't talked about Sweet Bitter in a long time. And I am so deep into my third book, which I'm about to turn in still in that stage, where the narrator is like a 75-year-old man.

and I think people assumed I was tests for such a long time, but when I was looking at the book before we talked, I was like, this is a character, this is a voice. It's like not me. She's like more universal than me, but I remember struggling to like get back. I mean, I was 30 when I wrote it, but I was just like, what was it like when I just got here?

You know, I was 30 and when I was. and when I started that book, I was married to my first husband. And, like, I felt very, very far away from that dislocation of being brand new to New York City and that feeling of possibility and reinvention. Like, I felt so firmly entrenched in life. But, like, I really, I worked at finding that voice. It ended up being, it is probably the most controversial thing about the book. I did so much publicity for that book. and one of the constants was that Tess was very divisive.

Like some people think she's a moron. Some people think she's a slut. Some people think she's a genius. And it tells you a lot about how we feel about young women. Yeah. That you can't be both superficial, a little vapid, and have deep thoughts. It's really polarizing. Very.

I mean, because she's so, all of those. those things. She was, is so smart. And, you know, of course, like, what I can relate to is, like, the Jake, the, the love story between them and always wanting that guy. Like, in your 20s, but it kind of never goes away. There's always that attraction to, like, the most unavailable, fucked up dude in the room. And just going through that with her, God, it really does take you back. But in all of the ways. And she's not what, like I was, I always find myself, it's my second time reading it. And I love doing a revisit because you, you know, I'm in a different place in my life and reading this book, but just going through it all with her and how she's so smart.

And like, just seeing her trajectory even just in the restaurant and like personal and how it's parallel and like everything she's going through. I don't know. I'm, I just left it being like, it is very interesting. to bring up, you know, how people perceive women, especially. Yeah, it's running through the whole book. You know, I think that even if you're not a waitress is a pretty specific role to be playing in a society because you are like performing a kind of likeability for tips. Like that's, you are of service.

It's a tough-ass job. Dude, it's the hardest. And it's the only job I've ever had besides. writing. But I think the experience of being looked at and told who you are by people older than you when you're 22. Like that, I was conscious of that while I was writing it. But I also, you know, I'm 12 years older than when I wrote that book. And I'm just like, the way we look at young women is crazy. They're not people. We're not asking them like, what does it feel like for you. We're telling them like, oh, God, this is what it's like to be 22. It's all so condescending.

And I'm glad that it is in there because it becomes truer, the older I get. Wait, so questions going back to Sweetbitter. And so you said it was a character, right? Mm-hmm. Help me understand how you do that. Because it feels so. real. She feels like, like when I was picturing you, because we know you, so it was hard not to see you as Tess. And with every, you know, chapter, I was like, oh, God, I knew I liked her. Because it seemed like such a relatable character. So how much of that was you, how much wasn't? And how do you find those voices outside of you as an author? Or as a,

writer in general. Well, I think you guys are both actors. So you know the how much question is really, it's hard to quantify exactly how much of that is you and how much of that is a creative impulse. What I will say is that tests, so I was a waitress at Union Square Cafe. Then I went on. I worked at a wine store. I ran beverage programs. I was a small EA. I was a general manager. And by the time I was writing this book, I was a GM. My first husband owned restaurants. And the idea of the character in the early draft, she didn't have a name. She was called the new girl just the whole time. And then at some point in graduate school, someone was like, I just hear the TV show. And I was like, you're right. Like, we need to figure out. But, you know, there's a significant portion of the book where you don't know what her name is.

and she finally gets a name. She's named by this culture that she's passed into. But I saw managing restaurants, working in restaurants, so many women who moved to New York City and they said, I'm just going to do this while I get my feet on the ground. I'm just going to do this while I get the like internship that I want or the assistant job that I want. I'm just going to do this for the summer.

And I watched this metamorphose. It happened every single time. They're like, this is really fun. I like to drink. The bartender's really hot. All of a sudden, they're breaking up with their nice boyfriend that they moved to the city with. And now they're going to park bar. And now they're dabbling in drugs and going to late shows.

And all of a sudden, four years are gone. And that was what I was going for, is that. experience because the truth about me personally is that I moved to New York City to be a writer. I have a degree in creative writing. I had a novel I was working on very like Brett Easton Ellis, Joan Didian style novel that had been my thesis in college. I was married. You know, I got together with my first husband when I was 23 years old. I wasn't like out there fucking bartenders. I wish I had spent more time doing that. You know, it comes for all of us eventually,

but like that wasn't my experience of my 20s. And I was thinking about this like prototypical new girl to New York, this new girl to the service industry, who has a certain amount of condescension, who's like, I just need the cash. And then is like, oh, fuck, this life has swallowed me up completely. it's so, so, so seductive. So that is where she's a character.

And what I was talking about earlier, being 22, like that's probably the most me. But to be completely honest, like, I wasn't so disoriented or lonely. Half of my graduating class from Kenyon College moved to New York City after school. And I'm from California, as we've talked about, like, I'm familiar with cities. Like, I really wanted the fish out of water thing that New York overwhelmed me and I completely fell under its spell and it confused me and scared me and excited me. But I had a real structure around me. I had these friends.

I had a degree that I knew what I wanted to do with it. It took me quite a long time to do it because I fell in love with the restaurant industry. but I had this like I was taking classes and wine like I immediately was like I want to make this professional and I think Tess is closer to those women who are like and I really pushed back on this people would be like well what does she want to do and I was like she doesn't know they'd be like what was her major I'm like English lit like she doesn't know she knows that she reads the world in a specific way but she has no idea what she's going to do with it. And that is the restaurant industry is full of like artistic, sensitive, intelligent people who don't totally like know where to put it yet. Yeah. I still have best friends from 25 years ago from working in one restaurant.

It's like the people you meet in those. It's like in the trenches. Totally. You are. You're in the trenches together. One of the things I'm curious. about is because it wasn't your experience of the loneliness and stuff, but there's a certain line that stood out to me as far as she took, when Tess was talking about her pain and she was

like, it feels inherited. I knew you were going to say that. You know? I knew you were going to say that. Yeah. So I think that Tess has a relationship with an older woman. woman in the book, a platonic but intense relationship. And to me, that relationship was all about a mother wound. And the only thing you know about Tess is that she was raised by her father.

That's like in the page one of the book, like her mother was gone. And I do think I'm very familiar. I mean, that's what my whole second book is about. It's a memoir about my parents being addicts. And that is what I was thinking of, which is this deep pain that comes from not having a mother who was a container for you, who was a safe container for you. So you kind of are out there spinning in the world. And honestly, I think it's worse than daddy issues. Like everyone likes to joke about daddy issues. and it's like fun and kind of sexy. But like a mother wound is so destabilizing.

It's so groundless. Like you'll kind of cling on to anything to get that feeling. And so she has that line about met the sadness was so deep. It felt inherited comes after she leaves Simone and is like feeling rejected by her. And so yeah, that is connected to like some ancient longing. for a home. Yeah. Relatable.

I know. I'm like in my head. I'm like, oh my God, but it is so true. I mean, you cannot with the mother wounds. I mean, I've had experiences with a few people with like deep mother wounds like that. And it's like nothing I've ever experienced anywhere else. You know, it's really, really a thing. But I do.

You guys know now that like, even, if you're raising a child with the most incredible father of the planet, like, it's the mom. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter, like, who comes into their life or what their father is like, their attention. They're, like, the center of their gravity is always the mom, which surprised me. I mean, I didn't anticipate that. Right, because you hear so much, it's like, oh, her dad wasn't around or the dad, the dad, but we've seen some things recently on that where it's like the most important thing for a child is the mom's emotional well-being.

And it's not just even how the mom shows up for the child, it's how the mom shows up for themselves. Are they emotionally regulated? because a child can't feel safe with someone who doesn't feel safe being themselves. And that's just, and it's not the same for men. It is the mother that provides that kind of self-regulation that they end up modeling and their safety is kind of dependent on it internally. No big deal, guys. I know.

I'm just sitting here like, fuck. Yeah, when you're like, is the mother emotionally regulated? I'm like, no, she's not. What do we do? What happens now? You know, I really do think that the key is the love. And I do think that it's important for us to be practicing that same thing with ourselves because that's what they're going to pick up on is how much.

we love and show up for ourselves and do the things that we need to be present, right? I have such a hard time with that, though, because, like, I know, and I've heard of moms, like, stories of, like, where they miss something very important, pivotal, monumental for a child, like they're having a, whatever it is, to go do something for themselves. And then I have a hard time. Like, is that really a good example where you're doing something for yourself, but you're disappointing the child, you know? It depends on what it is. Yeah, I guess that was probably. Like, if you're missing your kids recital to get a massage, you're an asshole. Well, no, I'm not talking about that. Yeah. No. No. But Stephanie's like, I just did not. I just missed. It's a mistake. It wasn't

massage, but I was definitely in New York partying. During their Christmas recital, I was like, Matt, send me videos. X-o-X-O. That's better. That's better than getting a massage, Stephanie. Come on. You weren't in the same city. No, but that's different.

I think that what you're touching on is a value system. Right. Yeah. Right. You know? It is. And I think that there's like a part of that advice. is trying to correct this crazy altruistic mom gives up everything for their child and becomes

a shell of a person and there's nothing left when the child leaves home. And I think that this right now, we're in such a child-centered parental culture. Like everything is about the well-being of the child and the gentle parenting and like getting the child all the resources they need to thrive. like we're trying to correct a little bit and just be like, okay, so like a little more 80s parenting. And like, the kid's good. Are you good? Do you have anything else going on besides being a mom? And so I think it's like, Olivia, I like massages quite a bit, but to your point, it's like, where are you? Like, if you're saying I have to go to New York to work, not to pat myself on the back, but like I have to to go to New York to work because it's important to me that I write and I work and that I spend

time in New York. Like maybe that's a little bit better than just telling the kid, I guess your recital is not that important. See, but that to me is a value system. And that's an important one because you are like you're showing up for yourself and you're building a life, which in return is teaching them how to do the same for themselves. Yeah. Well, it is. And I'm like, I'm actually like the worst of the extreme where, you know, I don't really do anything for myself. And so, you know, there's like that balance you have to find, but I really struggle with it.

You've gotten better, though. You're doing your Pilates and your, you know. I go to Pilates while she's at school. And we're doing a lot. You're doing a lot. Yeah, no, I'm definitely at the point where I'm like, okay. And to show, but it is to show them that. And I've talked about this, how Drew Barrymore, like how she speaks to her kids,

like, I get to go to work. It's just all in how you frame things, right? Like, I get to do this or things that make her happy. And I think that is really important. It is how you frame it all for these young people so they can, you know, model it. But yeah, I do. I definitely struggle. But I also don't like leaving my house. So it's a bit of an excuse at times, too.

Yes. You know? Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, can we talk about what we're working on? Yeah. I can, right? Oh, okay. I mean, yeah, we can, right?

Yeah, we announced it. We did announce it. It went into the world. It did go into the world. I'm just so excited about it. It's like all I want to talk about. Like I just, I'm really, you guys, Kathleen Flynn wrote me this morning, my agent forwarded it to me. But wait, let's look at what it says.

She's just very excited. I read Sweetbitter when it first came out. She likes Sweet Bitter, blah, blah, blah. I know we're still in the development stages, but I wanted to say how excited I am that you're exploring the story, shaping the vision. Yeah, she's just, it was like just a happy, nice email. That's so nice. That's amazing.

Yeah. So she's the author of The Sharper Your Knife, The Less You Cry, which is what Stephanie is developing. It is a memoir about a woman who kind of, I guess, like, blows up her life and goes to a very interesting. intense and competitive cooking school. And yeah, we've been working on it for a little bit. And we're very excited.

But, you know, I think we, I'm thinking of, it's not like, it's not a mother wound show, exactly. But I think what it has in common with what we were just talking about is the adriftness, the reinvention. Who am I now? What's going to happen to me? But what was so exciting, and we've talked about this quite a bit, the three of us, like, what's so exciting about it is that she's not 22. And it does feel like, as a woman in your mid-30s, late 30s, like, you're up against some, a serious wall. And it's not just your fertility. It's not just whether I'm going to become a mother or not. It's that you, are expected to really have made big decisions. You're expected to have figured some things out.

And so our character, Kathleen, is up against all of that. Yeah, I think it's, I think that it's not a mother wound show, but it's definitely a societal wound show, right? Like all the wounds that society puts on women at all different ages and facing that and really being like, but who am I? And at what age do we get to ask ourselves that question and reinvent without all of the stories of you should be X, Y, and Z at this point in your life? And I think that is really important for women of all ages to know that like it is on the table. to be able to reinvent yourself at any age and ask those questions, it's not just reserved for girls in their 20s.

Totally. Yeah, I completely agree with all of that. And I think that this idea that like this jump towards cooking school, is it incredibly regressive, immature, privileged, or is it incredibly brave? And it's like when we meet, and we're calling her cat in the show, like when we meet Kat, I think she doesn't know. And part of that is like developing your own voice. Olivia, what you're just saying.

Like, when do you get to ask yourselves these questions? Like, kind of when you are, have enough of your own voice to answer them is. And yeah, I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be a beautiful show. I think it's going to be essential and immersive. And I think women are really going to relate to it. I mean, our touchstone we've been talking about is Felicity, but like a decade older. Like where, where do you find yourself? Are you still allowed to make those leaps into the unknown and try on different identities?

There couldn't be a more perfect person to develop this than you, like on every level. And we knew that right when we met you were like, that's her, you know, and your love for food and for restaurant too. Like, I know it doesn't take place in a restaurant, it takes place in a cooking school, but it's so transferable. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's about the first line of sweet bitter. You will develop a palette.

And it's really the palette is the ultimate metaphor. And truly, once I wrote that sentence, I knew what the entire book was. about it's just about a woman developing her palate but the palate extends towards all of the emotional and psychological um social things as well as food and senses but it's about the development of your own taste your own sense of authority and so we are going to like continue that in the sharp of your knife for sure um it feels very timeless to me it feels the show that we're we're making. Yeah, I agree.

And it's funny, because people were saying last night, there's not a lot of shows right now like it or like, like, like Felicity or what, you know, when we were younger and watching these shows about these journeys and stuff. And I just think, like, yeah, I'm just, it's just so exciting to me. And I'm just so happy with what you're coming up with. Yeah, we're really, we're really close to. I mean, everything's so slow.

I shouldn't say that. I take it back. No, we're close. We're close. We're really, really close. And I think, like, the show is sincere. And we've talked a lot about that. And I, like, I don't see many shows that are sincere anymore.

There's, like, a Tweed earnest show, and then there's, like, a sarcastic show. And there's nothing that's grounded in the middle right now. If there is one, please send it to me. I would love to watch it. Me too. I'm doing research, but yeah, I have trouble finding that. And the cool part, too, is it allows for other characters' journeys as well, because they all come to this place from a different point of view, different ages and different life experiences.

And so you get to see how everyone ends up at that similar question at different phases in their life. And one of the things in Sweetbitter that I love that you did that I can see for this as well is, and we've all experienced this so many times of like when you first show up to something and you feel so new. And then moving through that experience and then you know exactly when to kick the door and slam the thing and you become of the land, whether it's New York or the restaurant or a job. Like, we've all had that feeling of like, I don't know where my hands are supposed to go to, here, let me show you. And that to me is something that's really fun to explore of how we become kind of, how we start as foreigners and end up as old pros. Yeah, you become fluent.

we used to say with the TV show Sweet Bitter, like it's a ballet. She doesn't know how to dance yet. And it has to like grow progressively over time. But yes, I love the fish out of water stuff. And the other thing that you are talking about, Olivia, that sharper your knife has, is that like trenches temporary family. And I honestly didn't know this until I made. a television show, but it's so similar to a restaurant in that you come together,

you have this incredibly intense experience, and you don't know if you're ever going to see these people again after you leave, but you've lived through something, you've shared something, kind of like a battle that no one else will ever know what it felt like inside of, except for you and these people. So you're bound to them. But there are also these liminal spaces. A school is like that. A restaurant's like that. A show or a movie is definitely like that.

And so I'm excited. I like how when you go into these spaces, not only do you become fluent in whatever the language is. And it's a fucking struggle and it's funny and it's difficult. But families reassert themselves pretty fucking quickly. It's like you always have someone who wants to be the mom. and someone who is the brady older sister. And like it just, all of us are recreating these things all the time.

Such a good point. Yeah, there's a book called Family. Is it Family Dynamics? And they talk about that. Is it family dynamics? Well, they talk about family patterns and how whenever we come from a family dynamic, if someone shifts from that position, will subconsciously pick it up, right?

And so it's the same kind of thing if you've got a restaurant environment, a cooking school, anywhere where you've got these kind of dynamics, and then you've got someone who may be the hero, right? And then they leave. And then that position's open. And someone will subconsciously step into it

because they're like, I guess that's me, right? That's how the structure works. Like there has to be someone here. Yeah. So that's so fun to play with. This is the kind of stuff that literally lights me up. And also just like the interesting thing of like when you're in an environment like a restaurant or a cooking school, like the freezer itself can mean so many different things to so many different people. Like I remember once when I was working at a restaurant and someone told me they made out so and so in the freezer. What? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. In the freezer. In the walk-in freeze. Like a big hookup spot.

Yeah. And then like I remember once like because I lost my dad. And so I remember waiting tables on Father's Day and not being able to do it. And like going in the freezer and crying. And it's like that freezer means that to me. The freezer means something really sexy to someone else. And to the chef, it's where they keep their food. It's like it means so many different.

things and nobody gets that unless they've actually walked into a walk-in freezer. A hundred per cent. You know? That's what I used to say when I was touring for Sweetbitter. I would be like real life is happening inside these restaurants. These are invisible hands that are serving your food that's giving you kind of like a background din or the, you know, for the guest, the feeling that you're at the center of something. But all around you, people are diagnosed with cancer and have newborns and are

going through breakups and are grieving the loss of their parents and are falling in love. All around you, there's all of this life. And so that was like a big part of what I wanted to write about in the book and that we will get to with the show. Just, you know what's exciting about the shark or your knife is that it's global. And that a restaurant attracts like a certain kind of person. There's a bit of diversity, but the kind of diversity that we're talking about, that you can have someone from Asia, you can have someone from Mexico, you can have a woman from Florida.

Like, there's so much to play with there about the people who end up needing to take a break in their lives. obviously something has happened. They've either lost a job or retired or had some kind of breakdown or, I mean, something has allowed them to take six months in the middle of rural Ireland, which is where I show is set. So good. Doesn't that sound great, though?

I'm like, wait. I know. No, let's just be honest. We're doing this so we can all go to the. the cooking school. That's right. I mean, research a hundred percent.

Yeah. Yeah. They're like, why did you do it to go to the cooking school in Ireland? Yeah. Absolutely.

We had a plan to spend our summer in Ireland and then we just came to go. Yeah. I want to churn butter and pick fresh lobsters out of the sea. Same girl.

And that's the thing is it's like, I love the escapeism to it as well. That's, yeah, such a draw. I mean, even us talking about it right now, all we're thinking is like, let's go there. Let's go there. I know.

We are. We all are. You guys, how is the reaction to the announcement been? I haven't seen you guys since we announced it. It's been so great. Yeah. It's been like so happy and supportive on my end. It feels really, you know, the internet's like a weird.

dark place and then when you do something you know something like that and it feels like people are really rooting for the project i'm like oh it's not such a terrible place i know it was a really cool reaction it made me feel very happy and just you know supported which is always nice yeah the internet is both right what the internet is both it's like it can be both light and both dark. The internet is weird, guys. Oh, so dark. I really struggle with, like, the feed on Instagram with how dark.

I'm off at the moment until I finish this book. Like, after I turn this book in, I'm going to, like, go on TikTok and just, like, until my eyes glaze over. But, yeah, I haven't had Instagram on my phone. a while and you know it's like it's lovely and at the same time you miss things lovely yeah you know your close friends vacations and photos of their kids and all of the i logged on on a desktop after christmas because i like seeing everyone's christmas thing it's like warm and cozy right i know that part's nice yeah i wish we didn't live in a iteration of this world where that's what we depended on and where we had like we have like too many people we know

about like you know the brain can't hold it but at the same time like that is the world that we live in and i don't know i know i just can't handle the news anymore yeah i don't think we're meant to like you said it's too much to hold like i don't think we're meant to have all of that information at once and even sometimes the positive, even sometimes the Christmas pictures, you know, because it's like you never know. I agree. It's too much too much. It's just too much.

You know what I do love that I've never done and maybe one day we'll do it, but I love getting people's holiday photos in the mail. You mean like Christmas cards? Yeah. We've never done that. We've never sent to Christmas cards. But like that feels sweet to me because it's like you're getting that, but it's not like an online, you know, kind of attack on the senses. It's just like a sweet greetings.

Do you do a Christmas car stuff? I did until my divorce. And then I was like, huh, I'm going to rethink this. So it's been a couple years since I did that. I think it might have felt like pretty passive aggressive if I just sent one out that was the three of us without like that point here anymore like he's done he's passed away um yeah no that's a different circumstance I'm off my Christmas card game but yeah I think I think that is super super sweet I will tell you Olivia as someone who has done it it's a lot of work and you're just like

It's when you're like making all your kids class valentines at like midnight on February 13th. You're just like, why? Why do I have a dog? Why am I sending Christmas cards? Like for someone to put on their fridge for a month and then put in the trash. Why? Why? Why?

It's to decorate people's pianos. I don't think we'll probably ever do it only because we're just not. I don't know that you'll get your shit together to do it. That's right. or not type A enough, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think that you should. I'm going to do one. Like a joke one.

I'm going to do one just of you to send everyone. Yeah, just the two of you. Yeah, just that's. We actually have the pictures. Our stepbrothers picture. Yeah. You guys should send a Christmas card from the two of you. That's such a good idea.

Plus Olivia's dog, of course. The psycho dog. You know, one time. I would like to do this again, and maybe the three of us find a way to do this. This would be really fun. Is a friend of mine, we went and got pictures taken at one of those weird studio things. And they do you like elves at the mall or whatever. And then we didn't tell anyone.

We just framed them and put them up in people's houses when we went. That was fun. It was pretty good. Because they didn't get it in the mail. They were just like looking at their stuff all the sudden. They're like, what the? Hell. But they were really funny.

They were good. They were really good. I have a bunch of my sister and I, the glamour shots from like seventh grade. Oh, my God. What is your sister a writer? What does she do? She is a CMO for a crypto company. She's like a big girl, a big adult girl.

And we are very close. We're 21 months apart. We talk every day. I already talk to her this morning. We're fighting over whether we're going to go to Cape Cod this summer. And she lives in St. Louis, Missouri. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

Well, we might be in Ireland this summer. I know. But I will say even without the Ireland, I'm like, last summer, I don't know. well, actually both of you guys go through this, I spent so much money on camp for my two children that I was just like, I could go to Europe.

Like I have friends who have homes in Europe and they put their kids in camp there that cost, you know, a third of what the American L.A. camps, shitty, shitty day camps cost. And I'm like, I'd rather be in Sweden. Like, I'd rather be in rural France and sending my kids. to a funny tennis camp with the amount of money I spent.

So whether, hopefully we are working in Ireland and being paid, but I think I have to go. We're going anyway. Yeah. Either way. It's interesting. My husband just brought that up today. He's like, do you want to do a month elsewhere in the summer? And I was like, will this, will that, will this?

And he goes, just take a moment and think about how much you spend. on the kids camp why he's like that could be put towards something else like it is that expensive I feel like it's like a thousand dollars a week or something insane for child care

my mine was $800 a week I have two kids no thanks I let me go to Italy please seriously no absolutely That's crazy.

I know. I could find a babysitter. Like, I just, it just, because the premise find the camps is that all of us have to work. But your industry shuts down during the month of August. You can't even get a hold of people on email. Like, the summer's iffy in general. Like, if you don't have to be on set, you're good. Be elsewhere.

Correct. Your husband is right and trying to save you money. Yeah. I was like, but that's going to cost. It costs so much money. And he's like, is it? Because it almost costs more to stay here. And I was like, that's such a good point.

Yep. I mean, you live in a great city, my friends. Yeah, we do. So much to say on that. But I will reserve my opinion. Anyway, we are so, so excited for everything to come. And it was so fun reading. bitter again and watching the show.

But what, the, the actress who plays Tess, she's so good. Ella, she's like a huge star now. Is she? I was gonna ask, like what, she's so, like, I can't stop, I couldn't stop looking at her. Like, she's so beautiful. Dude, she, first of all, like, the camera just gobbled her face up. I mean. Like, we, when we're in Video Village, we're like, what is happening?

Like, those, ohos, her eyes are so. No, it makes me think I need like bangs. I can't do bangs. But like watching her, I'm like, I want. Have you ever had bangs? I've had them. Yeah, like once. It's not, it's not for me.

Never? No, never. What was interesting about Ella and the show, first of all, was that she was actually 22. And I, and had never lived in New York before. And I loved it. because I again to that like condescension of like a bunch of writers twice your age in a room somewhere telling you I would just be like well what is it like what is it like tell me tell me everything that it feels like when you're walking across the Williamsburg bridge at 2 a.m. and you're alone in the world are you free are you scared what like and she was an incredible resource but then she was like she was in yellow jackets she was in a whole bunch of shows and now she's on that Amazon Prime show fallout And she just finished like a world tour for the second season.

Like my girl has been busy. She's not stopped working. So that's amazing. Very happy for her. Had she worked a lot before that? She was a child actress. But so she was in, you know, like she played the young Angelina Julian Maleficent.

And like she had roles like that. but she has been acting since very, very little. And how much say did you get on the cast? I was a very active EP, like probably not what they signed up for, because I was a novelist, but I, Stu Zickerman, who was the showrunner, I mean, we did everything together. I was in every budget media. I was on every single phone call.

was in post. I was on all the music calls beyond everything. And then when it came to casting, I was in a room with like a lot of men. And the only woman for Tess, we, no one does this anymore. We flew six actresses from around the globe. And they came and auditioned in person. And these women were just like so scared and the men that were running that were so scary. Not name me any names. You know, and I found myself like really pushing for people. And Tom Sturridge, who plays Jake, I've really fought for. Our first meeting with him, he was like 45 minutes late too.

And he like, and he came in in Jake's clothes. Like truly when it came time for the show to happen, it was all Tom's wardrobe. He was like, I know what I'm doing swearing. And I was like, yes, whatever he says. Like, absolutely. And I think that some people at Stars wanted someone more of a traditional, like, heart throb type. And I was just really new about Tom and Caitlin Fitzgerald. I was like, I was like, you can make a show without me.

Or you can hire these people. Yeah. No, Tom's so, he's such a talented actor. And I love him. Yeah. Yeah. He really knew what he was doing. The fun fact is that he decided that Jake would wear an earring and didn't tell anyone.

Okay. For the kissing scene in the, no, the oyster scene. The, like the big oyster scene that ends the pilot. it and stew it was really late at night stew's just like up there at the screen he's like is he wearing an earring like if someone can someone get cat like the costume like can someone get cat is he wearing an earring was it a dangly earring yes i have a hard time with dangly earrings on guys like a really hard time very if anyone could i swear god if it was me i would have been like yeah if tom says so um the earrings

no longer with us in the finished version of the show. I might be behind that. I might stand behind that. Totally. I mean, there's been guys where you're like, he's cute, but he's wearing a dangling feather earring. Totally. That's hard for me. Correct. My ex-husband has a, has an earring now. And I actually think it looks great on him. But a lot of our, my friends are like, oh no, the earring. What kind of is he okay? He's wearing, I have these like salt and pepper diamond studs that I was like thinking I was

going to do something with. So he's got a salt and pepper diamond. And I am very into it. But my friends are like, is he good? Is he okay? What's with the earring? See, I don't mind that as much as a stud, right? Yeah, no, I know.

You're just the dangling. No, like the dangling feather or cross or. like, you know. It was a dangling cross, Olivia. Correct. Thank you. I know exactly the vibe. Yeah.

And I guess now that I'm talking to you guys about this, I was a little like that with the actors the whole time. I had never worked with actors before. I was like, they really know. You should let them pick their shoes. That's like not something that is done. Right. No.

But his whole thing worked for. Him for sure. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Oh my God. Yeah. He's so good. And those are the kind of guys that can be interesting and so attractive because you're

like, huh, he's wearing a crock top. Interesting. Totally. You've had that experience. I have had that experience where everyone's like, why does he wear a croctop? And I'm like, it's a bold move and I kind of like it. It's kind of hot. Yeah.

It's aggressive. Confidence. It's confidence. Yep. That is exactly it. Yeah. Oh my God. Well, thank you again so much for coming on and talking to us. Anytime. We're so excited to see you for lunch and everything else.

I know. I'm going to text you guys for lunch. Please. This was awesome. Thank you for talking about sweet bitter again. Happily. Anytime. Happily talk about any of this forever and ever. Amen. It was so fun to see you guys. Me too. I'm very excited about our lives together. Same. Could not be happier about our lives together.

And can't wait to read your next book. Totally. It's like it's here in, let's see, what do I have here? This is part two. Part three. Wow. Amazing. I'm like really in it right now.

That's so cool. Really at the end. I love it. Yeah, it's something. Awesome. Okay, you guys, I will see you. soon. Yes.

Let me know what else I can do. Just eat lunch with us. Great. Thanks. Bye, guys. That was a hate gum podcast.