Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Lori Gottlieb on Idiot Compassion, Boundaries, and Self-Criticism

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Psychotherapist and NYT bestselling author Lori Gottlieb talks with Olivia and Rachel about how it’s impossible for friends to be impartial, gender disparities, and the dangers of labeling. They also discuss boundaries, self-imposed mental prisons, and how hard we are on ourselves. Later, Rachel, Olivia and Rob holds the very first Broad Ideas book club! This month's book is Lori's bestseller Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. Broad Ideas is supported by Magic Spoon. Go to magicspoon.com/IDEAS to grab a variety pack and try it today, using promo code IDEAS for $5 off. Broad Ideas is supported by Rocket Money. Cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to RocketMoney.com/IDEAS. Broad Ideas is supported by Sundays for Dogs. Get 35% off your first order at SundaysForDogs.com/IDEAS, or use code IDEAS at checkout. Broad Ideas is supported by What Do You Meme. Get 20% off with the code IDEAS when you go to whatdoyoumeme.com/letsgetdeep.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Welcome to Broad Ideas. Today we have Lori Gottlieb. She is a psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author of, maybe you should talk to someone, which was our first select for the Broad Ideas Book Club. Yeah, we should say this was not intentional. It wasn't. It wasn't. It was kind of like cheating because we picked this for the book, and then we were able to get her to come do the podcast. I call that Kismet.

She's done a bunch of other podcasts that I do. So don't feel special? No, so I... He just wanted a humble brag of all the other podcasts he does. Right, right. So I reached out, and she was nice enough to agree to come do this, which made our book club episode make much more sense. She also has a podcast, Dear Therapist, and she has a column in the Atlantic called Dear Therapist. So I, Olivia, I know you were super, super into this as well, having Lori on and getting to pick a therapist's brain. Yeah, we should do that often.

Yeah, like every day. Like we need it. Oh, like we need therapy. Let's welcome Lori. Sometimes when inside of all these thoughts are swirling, round and round, Inside to join us on this journey as we take a little ride. We'll talk about dogs and kids and things. We'll talk about chicks and tampon strings.

We'll talk about boys. Because people die. Hi. Hi. It is so nice to meet you. Likewise. Thank you for doing this with us. This is Olivia, my best friend.

Hi, Olivia. And co-host. So, well, first I just have to start by saying that I am a huge, huge fan of your book. Maybe you should talk to someone. Thank you. I read it at a time in my life where I was really going through something very difficult. And it was like this amazing personal guide to kind of go in and help myself and learn from all these people's experiences and your own experience. And it really was life-changing for me.

So to be talking to you, I'm very, very great. grateful. So thank you for that. Well, I'm so glad that maybe you should talk to someone resonated with you in that way. That means so much to hear, you know, when you're writing a book and then you hear that it really affected people's lives. It's the best. Oh, yes. Well, it definitely did. I told everyone to read it. I remember Olivia, I was like, you have to get this book. Yeah. Get into it. Also, we started a book club with this podcast and Rachel did the first selection and that was the book she chose. So we're all in it, which is amazing. Oh my gosh, great. I'll bet you're having a very lively discussion. Yeah.

Probably gets very personal. I mean, that's what we do anyways here. That's how we live our lives. So it's just kind of really connected to who we are. We're more excited for this interview than we are most, to be completely honest, because this is the kind of stuff that we care about in life is getting into it in the way that you do in your book and in your TED talk and really about like rewriting the stories and all of that beautiful stuff. I'm just thinking about what you said because when you say

I really get into it at the very beginning of the book, I say that, you know, I'm a therapist, but my greatest credential is that I'm a card-carrying member of the human race. And that was why in the book, you know, I follow the lives of these four patients that I'm seeing as they're going through various things, but I'm the fifth patient in the book as I go to my therapist, and I'm working through something that has just happened in my life. So I think that we're all more the same than we are different, and I didn't want to position myself as the expert up on high who has the answers, but more about, hey, you know, you can't go through life unscathed. Everybody has struggles, big, small, you know, whatever they look like. And we all have to learn how to

not only get through them, but thrive and connect and most of all get out of our own way. You know, so much of us, you know, so much of what we're going through. And, you know, like, yes, our external circumstances that we don't have a lot of control over. But we have control over how we respond. We have control over these patterns that we keep repeating and we don't even realize we're doing that. So I think that a big part of me, including myself, as one of the patients, was to really make sure that, you know, everybody knows that they are not alone. I think that's the most important part for me reading it.

And also in the work that I do when I work with clients, I feel like when I do bring the pieces of myself to it and I can relate to them on the levels where they feel seen, I feel like that's where the most healing happens. Yeah. I think that people deeply yearn to be witnessed, but also for that understanding of like, yeah, we are all in this together. Nobody has the answers. We just have some tools that may help you, right? Well, yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's the difference between, you know, I talk in the book about the difference between sort of talking to your friends about what you're going through and talking to, say, a therapist. And that's the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. So with our friends, you know, we come to our friends and we're like, you wouldn't believe what my partner, my boss, my mother.

my sibling, you know, said to me, did to me, whatever. And your friend is like, yeah, you know, they're wrong, you're right, you go, girl. Right. That's idiot compassion. Because if you listen to your friends over time, you might hear a pattern that, you know, this is happening. It's like same story, different characters or even same characters, just different events, but the theme is the same. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you. We don't say that to our friends. You know, it's like, oh, no, I got broken up with for the fifth time in a row. It's like, maybe you should stop, you know, being jealous. Maybe you should stop, you know, like, whatever it is. Like, we don't say that. But what you get in therapy is you get wise

compassion. It's where we hold up a mirror to you and we help you to see something about your role in a situation. That doesn't mean we're blaming you. It means that everybody is doing a dance when they're in a relationship with anybody. And if you change your dance steps, the other person has to either change their dance steps too or they're going to fall flat on the dance floor. So, you know, when we hold up this mirror in wise compassion, we're saying, how are you contributing to what's going on? And that's not to say, you know, people say, well, that person's really toxic. And it's like, you know, it's true that, you know, we always say before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes. So, you know, yes, there are problematic people in our lives. Sure. The assholes are out there.

The toxic people are out there. But then why are you in relationship with that person or why do you keep, you know, why are you attracted to those people? And if they're people who maybe share your last name and you kind of were born with them, you know, then it's like, you know, how can you respond differently? What kind of boundaries can you set? How can you not be so reactive? Somebody said to me the other day in therapy,

my mother gets such great pleasure in provoking me and getting a reaction from me. And I said, she only gets that pleasure if you react. Right. Right. That is so huge and so hard. I personally have relationships in my life where I constantly have to remind myself not to react. And it doesn't mean don't feel. Like you can feel what you're feeling.

But I think when you have the perspective of it doesn't feel so personal that the other person who is saying, doing whatever this thing is, that is, unkind, that makes me feel misunderstood, that makes me feel criticized, that's about the other person. Right. Like that's what, that's some deficit in the other person. And I think that when we think about, you know, you mentioned my TED Talk where I talk about the stories that we tell ourselves, you know, that we've kind of internalized that other people told us growing up.

Those stories, we didn't realize it because we were kids. But as adults, we can realize now those stories were much more about the storyteller. than they were about us. They were much more about what was going on with that person who decided to say, you're this, you're that, you know, something's wrong with you. That wasn't about us. Nothing was wrong with us.

What do you think about the collective storytelling, like when it comes to ageism or sexism or all those big, you know, because Rachel and I, we've talked a lot about what it's like to be 40 now and facing a whole different. you know, set of standards and aging and growing and all of that. And there are those kind of societal storytelling that are hard to undo. What do you think about that kind of storytelling and how that affects us? I think that one of the great gifts of getting older is that the stories become less important. That I think that we start to realize that life has 100% mortality rate. So,

meaning it's not like other people are going to die someday. It's like we are too. And I think that that's a big theme in the book, not that it's about death, but that it's about being really intentional with how we want to live our lives on a daily basis. So if you're sitting there sort of thinking about, wow, I'm 40, you're going to look back in 10 or 20 years and say, I spent my 40s worried about being in my 40s instead of living my life in my 40s. Right. And so I think that the stories become less important because I think we start to realize I don't have a lot of time to waste on those things. And I think the pandemic did that for us too in a way where I think a lot of us said, what are my priorities? Life is really precious. What are the things that I don't want to have wasting my time in my life or taking up time or taking up emotional energy or emotional real estate? And what are the things that I want more of? Right. And people became much more interested in that. And I think that's how I think these stories become less important. Yeah.

I don't know. The whole 40s and everything, and, you know, I'm in the entertainment business acting, whatever you want to call it. But, and it's really relevant there because everyone's like, oh, looking at your face, picking you apart. And I turned to someone the other day,

and I was like, I've never felt better than I do now after turning 40, just as far as, like, who I am. And it was hard to get there. But I love that we have such an open, dialogue about the pros and there are cons too, I guess. Sure. But I mean, but we have such an open dialogue about it. And I think it's just to own it and as mothers and in our 40s and doing whatever we do professionally and what comes along with that. But it's been a, it's been, it's been a thing. It's been a thing. It's been a thing. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Even hormonally

and like the change of the period and the, you know, you start to see the wrinkles. and you start to be like, oh, I didn't realize when I got here, I would still feel like me, but that things would start to change, right? Right, right. Yeah, I think as we get older, we start to feel more whole. And I think that we start to realize what is meaningful, where do we get purpose? What are the things that we want to do for us, you know, instead of for other people? And I think that people pleasing kind of fades away.

That's a big one. And then we look back and we say, why did I do that? Why was I trying to live for other people and for their wishes for me? Because they don't get to live my life, only I get to live my life. Right. But I think, too, the cultural standards, you know, are there. And it's interesting that, you know, for women, the cultural standards are so much around physical appearance and the vulnerability that comes with getting older physically. And I think for men, there's still this cultural stigma around emotional vulnerability.

So it's like women are kind of trapped in this physical box and men are trapped in this, you know, emotional box. And I see that in therapy where, you know, so many times men will come in to therapy and they'll say, you know, I've never told anyone this before. And they've like literally never told anyone. And then I'll say, you know, what is it? And it's something that like women talk about at lunch. Right.

It's like for them, though, that just shows what our culture does to men. Like they can't talk about, they can't be vulnerable in any way. And women will come into therapy and they'll say, you know, I've never told anyone this before, except for my mother, my sister, my best friend. They've told like, you know, two, three people. But they feel like they haven't told anyone. Right. And I see this in couples therapy, too, if I happen to be seeing, let's say I see all kinds of couples, but let's say I'm seeing a heterosexual couple, usually it's the woman who says to her

husband or her boyfriend, you know, I just feel like there's this like distance between us. I just, I want you to share with me. I want you to like tell me what's going on inside. I feel like we're just like disconnected. And then he opens up to her. Yes. Okay. Well, well, okay, so that's what you think you want. But then he opens up to her right there on the couch, right in front of me. and let's say he starts to cry. She inevitably will look at me like a dear in headlights. Like, I don't know what to do with this because I asked for this. And I don't feel safe when you're not sharing with me,

but I also don't feel safe when you're crying in front of me. Right. So those are those cultural standards. And that's not talked about as much. Women, we talk a lot about the cultural standards around beauty. But men, because they can't even talk about their emotional lives, they don't talk a lot about the kind of prison that they're in emotionally. What do you think about the men that can do that very, maybe even too well?

Well, that's the thing, right? So we say, oh, men do it too well because we wouldn't really say that to our girlfriends. Right. You're being, you're, you know, you're too emotionally open with me. We don't generally say that. What are your thoughts on, I'm curious how you handle this as a therapist because this gets tricky for me as a friend and a coach where it's like, and I see this with my husband too, it's like, what hat do I wear? Right? And so let's say Rachel and I are getting into something.

I don't know how to, you go girl her, right? Because I'll be like, sure, that's not a projection. Or how is this similar to the, like, I just get in to the stuff you're talking about as far as like, what are the patterns, what are you, you know, learning from this? And I think sometimes it's hard for myself personally to switch hats. How does that show up for you in your life? To switch hats between... Like between just being a friend and being a therapist. Yeah, yeah. I think that a lot of people would say, oh, I'm not a therapist outside of the office. But that's like saying I'm not a human inside the office. Right. we are just our whole selves wherever we are. I don't do therapy with my friends.

Right. But I think that I tend to choose friends who want to have all kinds of conversations. We can be funny and silly and, you know, just enjoy ourselves. And we can also have deep conversations. And I tend to just be surrounded by people where if we need to go there, we do. We don't spend all our time talking about deep personal issues. But we know that we trust each other enough to do that. I feel like, I don't know maybe if it still exists, but I feel like there's a stigma attached to therapy. And some people are like, oh, you're in therapy and it's automatically judged. And being on the other side of it, I started therapy a few years ago for the first time in my life. And it was the most incredible decision I've ever made. And I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, how can we live in a society today where there's still a stigma attached to it? And what can we put out there to get people to see that it doesn't mean like, oh, you're so fucked up or there's something really wrong. It's like the best thing you can do for yourself, you know?

Right, right. Yeah, there are so many misconceptions about therapy, and I think that that adds to the stigma. So I feel like therapy is like getting a really good second opinion on your life from someone who's not already in your life. Yeah. And I think that not already in your life is key because as much as somebody wants to be impartial in terms of, you know,

helping you see things, they're in your life and they, you know, their own kind of interactions with you are going to bleed into however they see you. And I think that it's not that we're impartial so much. It's just that we are seeing you in a different context. We are seeing you outside of whatever labels, whatever else is going on, which also means that we're getting a very subjective view of your life. You know, I like to say that we're all unreliable narrators, that we think we're telling the objective version of a story, but really what we're telling is our version of a story. And, And often we want to look good.

It's not even within our awareness that we're kind of telling, you know, we're emphasizing certain parts of a story. We're minimizing maybe the parts where we didn't look so good. We are, you know, choosing what to leave in, what to leave out. We're choosing what to tell in the first place and what not to tell. So I think there's that process, too. You know, I was a writer long before I was a therapist. And for me, I really feel like I'm an editor almost as much as a therapist when I'm in the

therapy room, that I'm helping people to tease it. out the faulty narratives to really get to what is going on and get out of the shameful place of not really sharing what's really going on because I can't really help someone if I don't know what's truly going on. And I think that the authenticity in the therapy room is often the most authentic people have ever been with another human being. And I think that the misconceptions are that you're going to go into therapy, you're going to talk about your childhood ad nauseum and you're never going to leave. And that's just not true. Our goal, and it's a terrible business model, but it's our goal, is to get you to leave. We don't want you

to be there forever. We want to help you with whatever is keeping you stuck or holding you back so that you can go out in the world and navigate through the world in a better way and more smoothly. What if someone really wants to be there forever? Is there something wrong with that? I think it depends on why you're coming to therapy. So some people come to therapy, and I would say many people come to therapy, and this is not what I would. would recommend is that they come when they're really in crisis as opposed to. It's not like, you know, it's kind of like look at our physical health. It's like if you fall down and say you break your arm, you're not going to be like, well, it's not that bad because I'm not, you know,

dying. So, you know, it's not like I have stage four cancer or I'm bleeding everywhere and I'm about to die. It's like, you know, you're going to go and you're going to get an x-ray and you're going to get a cast and you're going to take care of yourself. Also, we go to the doctor every year preventatively. Let's check in. Let's see how we're doing with our health. With therapy, it seems like many people wait until they're having the equivalent of an emotional heart attack before they come in. And the problem with that is that, first of all, you've suffered unnecessarily. The average time between when a person first starts experiencing something and when they landed therapy is 11 years. What?

11 years. Now, I, that's crazy. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's more like many months and sometimes years. Right. But the point is, why would you suffer unnecessarily for that long? And the other thing is, once you're in that crisis, things have gotten really bad. So now we've got to get you back to baseline, back where you would have been if you came in when you first started thinking, maybe I want to go to therapy. And then we can start the work. And the other big, misconception about therapy is that people think you're going to come in, you're going to just like talk about the problem of the week and then you're going to leave. No, that's not therapy. That's talking to your friends. So therapy is really different. We always say that insight is the booby prize of therapy. You can have all the insight in the world, but if you don't make changes out in the world, the insight is useless. So like I had a client who came back one week and said, I got into that fight with my partner and I really understand why. And I said, great. but did you do something different?

Right. And she was like, no. So that's okay. But then the thing is, why not? And what can you do differently next time? So therapy is a lot about changing behavior. It's a lot about having different responses. It's a lot about doing something different out in the world

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One of the quotes from your book that I've always found to be one of the most powerful quotes I've ever heard is the Einstein one, which is you can't solve the problem from the same consciousness that created it. And I feel like that for me has been my experience with therapy is like, if I knew how to get out of this, I'd be out of it. Right. And oftentimes, like you said, it's like getting a second of pain. and being like someone can see what you can't see for whatever reason because we all have blind spots, right? Yeah. Right. And the reason you can't see it is because you're too close. It's like if you zoom in really close to a photo on your computer, you're only going to see this little part. We're that close to ourselves. But as a therapist, you're zooming out. You can see it from a different vantage point. And I think it's really helpful because so many times we say we want one thing and we do the exact.

act opposite that would prevent us from getting it. So there's this huge gap between desire and what we do. And what you do in therapy, you can help someone see that here's what you say you want and here's what you're actually doing that is preventing you from closing that gap. What's up with that? Well, human beings are ridiculous and I include myself in that. Thank you. And I think that that's funny and that's why in the book there's so much humor because I think we have to be able to laugh at ourselves and give ourselves lots of compassion. So many times we don't want to talk about the, we don't even want to think about the ways that we get in our own ways because we have so much shame around it. Like something's wrong with me or I'm defective or why can't I just X, Y, or Z?

And it's hard to just X, Y, or Z because there are reasons that we're holding ourselves back. So we have to understand those too. It's like the reason that, you know, there's a woman Charlotte in the book and she keeps, you know, hooking up with the wrong guys and dating the wrong guys at a certain point, she's like, starts dating somebody from the waiting room who's waiting for a different therapist in our office. And he's clearly bad news. I can tell from the beginning. And, you know, she just like always goes toward those guys and then says, like, you know, men are terrible and, you know, this and that. And it's like, why are you, why is that always the kind of person that you gravitate toward? And it's because, you know, for people who grew up with someone who didn't quite give them what they wanted, if you haven't processed that, there's a saying we marry our unfinished business.

If you haven't processed that unfinished business, you're unconscious. It's totally outside of your awareness, says, hey, you look familiar because that person feels like home. And they won't seem like it on the surface. They'll seem like, oh, wow, this is what I've always wanted. This is the kind of. love I've always wanted. And this time I've mastered that situation, that thing that happened in my childhood. Forget about that because I found a person who's going to love me in the way that I always wanted to be loved. And it turns out that once you get to know that person, wow, they're going to love you in exactly the way that you grew up. Because you haven't worked through this. So your unconscious is just always has radar for those people who are going to create the familiar that you had growing up. And that's where therapy can really help.

So narcissists. Yeah. No, narcissists, that's a, you know, that is a good question, Rachel. Rachel and I were talking recently about all of these things that are thrown around constantly now, right? I feel like even more so now. It is more so now. 100% narcissism, gaslighting, love bombing, all of those great little things that anytime you overhear someone talking at a cafe or you sit down and say, oh, what happened? oh, he's a total narcissist.

He was gaslighting me. He came in. He loved bomb me. And you're just like, is this all the same person? Or are we identifying qualities in people and making them bigger? Like, as a therapist, what is a narcissist in your opinion? Yeah. Well, first of all, I agree that if you just go on Instagram, everybody's using these terms.

And often they're not using them correctly. Everybody's diagnosing other people. you know, without really knowing, you know, just because somebody didn't call you or somebody said they were going to do something that they didn't do, they're not gaslighting you necessarily. They're not necessarily a narcissist because of this one incident. So I think that the terms are less useful than talking about relationally, well, what just happened between the two of you? And can you talk about that with the other person?

Is the other person receptive to the conversation without accusations? But to keep it on you, like, when? this happened, I was confused. Can you tell me? I thought that this was going to happen between us and then this happened. That's a very different conversation than, I can't believe you didn't call or, you know, whatever it is. Right. So I think that we have to be careful about diagnosing other people because then, yes, that's the idiot compassion. And then our friends say, yeah, that person's a narcissist, right? And then you don't learn anything and you go into the next relationship and it's like, whoa, it's the same kind of person. why do I keep having these experiences?

And that's where therapy can be really helpful to tease out, you know, what is about the other person? What is about the kind of people that you're choosing? And why are you getting in these same situations over and over? There's this great moment in the book where my own therapist says to me, you know, you remind me of this cartoon and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out. But on the right and the left, it's open. No bars. So why is it that, A, we can't see the bars at all? Like, we don't even know, we can't see the opening. We don't even know that it's open.

We're just shaking the bars. It's those guys. It's my mother. It's my boss, whatever it is. And why is it then that even if we see them, that we don't just walk around them? Right. And part of that is that with freedom comes responsibility. If we walk around those bars, then we are responsible for our decisions,

our choices are quote-unquote mistakes, which I think mistakes are good. great thing. They teach you so much. But we are responsible. You can't blame everything on someone else anymore. And that can be really scary to be responsible for our own lives. But it is so liberating, too. Yeah. Responsibility, accountability, all of it. It's really difficult. What makes someone a narcissist, like, in your opinion, what would qualify, you know, to say, oh, that's actually a narcissist? Even when I see someone who, who has narcissistic tendencies, I don't think that the diagnosis,

that the label is so helpful. And I talk about diagnosis too in all my writing because I feel like there's a human behind the diagnosis. And I don't want to lose the human being behind the diagnosis. So if somebody has narcissistic tendencies, that might help me to know

how can I connect with them? A narcissist is somebody who's very sensitive to any perceived criticism. So they will not, really take in feedback unless it's kind of delivered with timing and dosage. You know, when do you do it? What is the timing and what is the dosage? How much do you say in a certain session before kind of backing off? Right. So it helps me to know how to help them to see something about themselves differently without their getting defensive and feeling shame. But it doesn't

really matter to me kind of what the diagnosis is. It's more, and by the way, everyone's not kind of on a spectrum. So it's like some people can have narcissistic tendencies. People, people use the word borderline a lot. Like that person's so borderline, right? And maybe that person gets dysregulated easily, but maybe they don't really meet the criteria for borderline personality disorder. Maybe they do. But either way, you have to learn sort of how do I deal with that person if you are

going to need to be in relationship somehow, like it's a family member and you're deciding, you know, how do I have boundaries or do I want to, you know, kind of distance myself, how am I going to be in relationship with that person? But it's less about the label and more about what happens between. the two of you and how do you work around that? Right. Well, do you feel like it's eggshells at all, though? Like what you're saying, like timing and, you know, you kind of have to do that? Yeah. Well, that's the thing is so if you're in relationship with someone where you feel like you're walking on eggshells, the question is, do you need to be in relationship with that person? And I would say

romantically, that's always the big question. Like, you know, you complain about this person all the time. So what's keeping you here? If nothing's going to change, you. If nothing's going to change. If something has the potential to change, I can understand why you might want to explore that, but then for how long? How long are you going to spend doing that? If it's a family member, those become more complicated questions. You know, I think like if you look at Instagram, everyone says, cut them out of your life. And I think it's very complicated to cut family members out of your life. It has ripple effects for your children. If you have children, it has ripple effects for you. If you have siblings and what those relationships are like, if you cut out a sibling,

that has ripple effects in your relationships with other family members, family occasions, are always who's going to what. And it's very complicated. So I'm not saying you should never do this. There are times when absolutely it's warranted. But there are many instances where people on Instagram or just your friends will say, oh, cut them out, absolutely, as opposed to here's a way you can protect yourself. Here's a way that you can set boundaries. And here's a way that can make this so it doesn't feel so uncomfortable for you. Right. Right. Because it's the boundaries, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And I think the big misconception about boundaries is, I have a podcast called Dear Therapist, and we do sessions with people. And one person was coming in. She had real trouble setting boundaries with her family members. And we do follow-up. So we find out what happened afterward. And one of the things we really wanted her to understand is that boundaries are not about,

I'm asking you not to do this. And if you do that, you violated my boundary. Right. Because you can't control with the other person. Right. A boundary is what I'm going to do if you do that. So it's like if you yell at me when we're having a conversation, I'm going to end the conversation and we'll talk another time.

Yeah. Right. You know, if you criticize my appearance, mom, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to end the visit and we'll talk another time. And the thing about boundaries is you have to be consistent in holding the boundary with yourself. you can't be like, oh, but she just apologized, so okay, I'll stay. Right.

No. This was the boundary. I said I was going to end the visit. I ended the visit. And if you do that consistently, if the person really wants to have an enjoyable time with you and see you, they're going to know, oh, I can't talk about the way her hair looks or whether she's gained weight or whatever it is or what she's wearing. I think there's also a big missed opportunity in boundaries a lot of the time because I feel like people think, oh, if I'm not. a set a boundary, I have to be tough. And what I always try and say is, you can be kind and have a boundary at the same time. And it's actually the kindest thing you can do for yourself. And if you

don't do it for yourself first, no one's going to respect your boundaries because you can't ask people to do something for you that you're unwilling to do for yourself. And it's really loving. Boundaries are loving. And they're not just loving for yourself. They're loving for the other person because the boundary is the most loving thing you can do. Because what you're saying by setting a boundary is, I care about preserving this relationship with you. Yeah. I care enough about this relationship to set a boundary so that we can be in relationship.

If you just didn't give a shit, you wouldn't set a boundary. Right. Right? You'd just feel like, goodbye. Yeah. Goodbye. Oh, but it's so hard. But you present it that way.

And I think a lot of people present boundaries in this way like, you're defective and you must do this. And of course, people are going to feel defensive. Instead, to say, you know, we've talked about this mom, but when you talk about my appearance, it really makes it not enjoyable to be around you. And then I feel bad for the rest of the day. And then I don't want to be around you as much. So because I really care about our relationship and I want to have a good relationship with you, if you talk about my appearance, I'm going to end the visit so that next time we can have a more

enjoyable one. And every single time, consistency, if you miss even once, the person will think, oh, it doesn't really matter. I can just do what I do and sometimes she'll leave and sometimes she won't. But if you are consistent, generally, I would say most of the time what I see is the person changes their behavior or they get out of the way. relationship with you. It's a romantic relationship, then they just get out, you know, like, if you are going, if you lie to me again, you know, this guy, you know, like, and if, if you let

them lie to you, then they're just going to keep lying to you. But if you set the boundary, then you have choices. You don't have any choices about what the relationship can be like if you don't try to set a boundary. Right. I think it's hard for me because setting boundaries, it also goes against that people pleasing thing I have, you know, because in the past, we're done with that had. But yeah, because, like, I think I've always been such a people-pleaser, so those boundaries, especially certain relationships in my life, are way harder than others. In the professional world, like, I'm really good at it, but in my personal life, I really struggle. And then that's something to look at, too. But it's, it's, like, this balance of, like, people-pleasing and

boundaries and being scared. Like, I'm so fearful when I set these boundaries, but I don't know what I'm afraid of. It's just this feeling inside, you know? But it just creates this, like, scared little girl, I guess, would be the best way to say it. Right. But I think that the dilemma that you're describing is that when you set a boundary, am I going to be abandoned? Is this person going to not like me? Am I going to lose something here? But what you're doing by not setting the boundary is you're abandoning yourself. So is this person going to abandon me? Well, I'll take that risk over abandoning myself. I would never want to abandon myself. Yeah. I'm slightly upset.

best within her child work. How do you feel about that, like really talking to those parts of you? Are you a fan? Yeah, I think that different things work for different people. I think so much of the time it helps to think about ourselves as children because we can have so much more compassion for ourselves as children when we look at ourselves through the lens of being an adult. You know, somebody once said, tape a picture of you as a young child.

on your bathroom mirror. And every morning just remind yourself that you're going to take care of that little girl right there. And I think it's very helpful because we can be so unkind to ourselves. I will say especially women can be so unkind to ourselves. Whenever I'm giving talks and I, you know, I'm up on stage and I'll say to people, show of hands, who's the person that you talk to most in the course of your life? Is it your partner? Lots of hands. Is it your, parent, is it your sibling? Is it your best friend? So many hands. But the person that we talk to most in the course of our lives is ourselves. And what we say to ourselves isn't always kind or true or useful. So I had this client come in and she was so self-critical and she just couldn't see it. And so I said to her,

I want you to go home and I want you to really listen because most of us don't even know that we're talking to ourselves. So I said, I want you to just listen to how to you. you talk to yourself, listen to that voice in your head. It's like the radio station that's playing in the background that you think you're not hearing anything, but you really are. And I want you to write down everything you say to yourself over the course of this week, and let's talk about it when you come back next week. And she was so skeptical of this. She's like, yeah, they're not going to find anything. And she comes back and she sits down on the couch. She gets out her phone where she had like written everything down and she starts to cry.

And she said, I am such a bully to myself. And I had no idea. And I said, what were some of the things? And she said, well, I was typing an email and I made a mistake. I just, you know, like I misspelled a word. I was a typo. And I sent it. And I said to myself, you're so stupid.

And if somebody else had made that same typo, or she had received that email, she would not think, oh, that person's so stupid. Right. She was just saying, oh, that person was typing fast. and made this. It was a small typo. It was nothing. Right. But she said to herself, you're so stupid. Can you imagine saying to a child? Like, you're so stupid if they like never, never, never. Never. So why would you say that to yourself? She passed her so reflection. She was walking by, you know, some stores and she passed her reflection and she saw herself in the mirror, in the, in the glass. And she said, you look terrible today to herself. We don't even realize

we're saying that. No, we all did it. It didn't look terrible. Right. We all. We all. do that. So what I assigned her was, I said, I want you to now this week, listen for the voice and ask yourself, is it kind? Is it true? And is it useful? And think about not only talking to ourselves that way, but talking to the people that we care about that way. And I think the useful part, like, it might be kind and it might be true, but does it really help them? You know, I think that those three criteria are really important, but especially when talking to ourselves, to really listen to that. It changes the way you move through the world when you respect yourself. Because most of the time we treat ourselves horribly. So why not treat yourself with respect?

Treat yourself the way you want other people to treat you. And you will move through the world differently. It will feel like a weight has been lifted off your chest. I agree completely. Are you familiar with USM? No. Okay. So I met my husband at University of Santa Monica and it's spiritual psychology. Oh, yes. Yes, I am. And one of the exercises they had us do was everyone was to bring a baby picture of themselves. And we did this exercise, 200 people walked around the room holding up a picture of

themselves as a baby. And they wanted everyone to be completely silent during this time. But just to look at the picture and look at the person and take it in and see their loving essence. And it was one of the most powerful experience I've ever had in my life. Because all these people, I would say the exercise lasted about 30 minutes or so. Every single one of them, you could see their preciousness. And you're like, oh my God, we're just all these like little babies just trying to get it right. And it shifted the way I saw my husband. It shifted the way I saw myself. And And it's shifted the way I work with people where I'm like, if we can just remember every day that there's that preciousness inside of us and to be loving and compassionate, it changes everything.

Yeah, that's so powerful. That's like putting the picture of yourself on the mirror when you were younger. After this, I'm going to put a picture up on my mirror. I'm like, I need that reminder, you know, every day. And I have a daughter who's still young, she's eight. And then if I look at her, how I treat her, it's like, well, what's the difference? Like, you have to see that part of you as well. It's so powerful.

Yeah, I'm going to. Well, I see it when I look at you. I see the little squirt. Yeah. But I love what you said about you see your husband differently too because I think that so many times, you know, when you see someone act in a certain way, you think they're acting this way toward me. But so often when people, and it could be between friends or romantic partners, when they're having. conflict, they're not the only two people in the room. There are the ghosts of all of the people that have treated them in certain ways. And you're responding not just to the person in front of

you, but to all of the other people that you have felt hurt by. So when you feel hurt by your partner, you're not responding just to the hurt in the moment from your partner. You're also, it's going through this neural pathway that was developed. It's like if you think about like these neural pathways as roads in your body, there's, are these roads that become very well-troddened, like they become really wide major highways because that pathway of hurt was driven through so much when you were growing up. So now when someone gets on that road, it's like there's a lot of cars on that road. Yeah. Right. And then we have these really narrow roads where like people treated us really warmly, right? And maybe you're not

used to that. And so when someone gets on that road with you, maybe you're uncomfortable. Maybe you feel like, I'm not really attracted to that person. So kind and warm, but yeah, I'm just not really feeling it, right? Oh, yeah. So I think that that's what happens in the book with Charlotte is like her kind of rewiring of when does it feel good to get all that kind of delicious love? Yeah. And when does it feel uncomfortable because it feels so foreign to you?

Right. We've talked on this podcast a bunch about the book Many Lives, Many Masters. Have you read that? I haven't. Oh, it's so good. It's so, so good. I'll put it on my list. Please do.

It's the best. But it's about past lives. And in it, they talk about when we have these kind of soul connections and you're like, oh, wow, this person feels so familiar that it's not necessarily the direction you want to go depending on your childhood, right? Exactly. So, like, my familiar was like really charismatic, alcoholic men who were. would like to abandon you. You know, I'm like, ooh, cozy. Let's like go, let's go there, you know.

But it's like, how do we start to get comfortable with the uncomfortable? Yeah, that's Charlotte in the book, exactly. You know, the unreliable dad who, you know, sometimes it would feel so good. I think that unpredictability is so confusing for kids. Like somebody who sometimes is so exactly loving you in the way you want to be loved. And then other times just completely abandons you. That's very, very confusing. And those are the kinds of romantic partners that they tend to, again, unconsciously seek out. Yeah. Well, it explains a lot. We're done. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah, it's so, so true. February is the month of love. That's why I'm so excited about today's sponsor, Let's Get Deep.

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Let's Get Deep is perfect for an intimate setting or for a party. And you're in luck, because we have an exclusive offer for our listeners. For a limited time, get 20% off with the code ideas when you go to what do you meme.com slash let's get deep and use code ideas. Again, to get 20% off, go to what do you mean.com slash let's get deep and use code ideas. So let's get deep, literally. And they, we had so many people write in and have questions for you. They were chomping at the bit here. We're just trying to pick some that may be, okay, how to identify red flags? Thoughts on that. I think that the more aware you are of what some of the things from your childhood, you know, that you're still working on, those are the things where you're going to be. I got to be really careful around this because I haven't really processed this yet. I'm working on.

I'm exploring it, but I's still very vulnerable to this. But I think red flags in general are things like, you know intellectually that you don't want this kind of relationship, you know, these kinds of things in your relationship, and yet you justify them to yourself. Red flags are also where you won't tell your friends, all of it. Oh, yeah. That's a good one. So good and so true. That's so dead on. There are two things. One, you'll you'll either complain all the time to your friends where they get to the point where they just want to strangle you, right? And then it also can be you're not telling your friends because you know that this is not okay. Right. You know that you deserve better. You know that you should be treated

differently. And so you won't actually tell them what's going on. That's a big red flag. It's really good. If you feel shame around it, you know something's not right. That's, yeah. Those little kernels, right? Yeah, yeah. That's so true. There's so many times that like after the fact I'd be like, oh well there was this thing and they're like um yeah with our other friends too like you know after the fact we're like wait a minute hold up that was the most valuable piece of information you just neglected right right and it can be little things right but the reason that you know you don't tell your friends is because you know that if you tell your friends you have to acknowledge there's a problem yep and if you acknowledge there's a problem you are going to

have to give up something, probably, you either have to stay in a relationship that you know is bad for you or you have to give up something that you don't want to give up because you're not ready. It's kind of like even with, it might not even be a relationship, it might be like you're drinking too much. Right. And so, you know, you don't really tell your therapist how much you're drinking. We always say when we ask people in therapy, you know, well, how much alcohol do you consume? We always say just double it.

because most people, most people either don't really know how much they're drinking or maybe they don't want to acknowledge how much they're drinking. I wouldn't, you know, not in every case, but I mean, there have been many times where you get a sense that it's really interfering with their functioning or something in their lives or maybe they're functioning just fine, but it's really interfering with them being really present. And so you just, you know that they're not ready to talk about it in that way yet. which is why I didn't go to therapy until I got sober. Because I remember thinking, if I go to a therapist, I'm going to have to lie about my drinking. Because if I don't lie about my drinking, they're going to tell me I have to quit drinking, which isn't even true, right? Right. We're not going to tell you have to quit drinking. Exactly.

Exactly. But that was my fear. I was like, oh, if I go, I'm going to have to face this thing. So I'm not going to go until I'm ready to face that thing. that was a misconception I had about therapy. Nobody's going to sit there and be like, you need to X, Y, and Z. Even if it's like you're in a relationship, you're stuck in, you think, oh, well, if I go to therapy, you know, they're going to tell me.

And that's not how it goes, right? Rationalization is a great defense mechanism. People talk about denial a lot. But people aren't really so much in denial, like if, to going back to the red flags in a relationship, people know that they're not comfortable with it. it's more about rationalization. Like, oh, but he's having a hard time at work right now. Or, oh, but he had such a hard upbringing.

Just because someone had a hard upbringing does not mean that they can treat you badly. Right. Very true. You don't have to move your boundaries for someone else's upbringing. You can have compassion for someone, but you also expect them to treat you with respect. And if they're not ready to do that, then you probably don't want to be with them at this point. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I can relate to that. And it's always like the more challenging things, I find the more challenging things I have to do are always like the right things or the more rewarding things or whatever because it's hard, but it's right. And it sucks that I've had to do that so much.

But do you think we touched on gaslighting a little bit when we were talking about narcissism, but because that's such a popular word, literally I'm. think I hear that like 10 times a day. I don't even understand it. I don't really understand what gaslighting is. Can you help explain that to me? So gaslighting comes from the movie Gaslight. Right. It's where you make someone feel crazy when they're sane. So they say, like take cheating for an example. So you have a sense that the person is, something's wrong. Like they're, they're not they said they were going to be, or you found something, like something on their phone. And they tell, oh, no, no, no, we're just friends. Oh, you're reading into this. You're so jealous. Like, you're just so needy. I don't know why you keep accusing me of this. That's gaslighting.

Okay. So they actually are the same person. Something is not right. I'm seeing that there's something going on here. And you're saying, you're crazy. There's nothing going on. In fact, you're the problem. So it's not only you're crazy. Okay, so I'm very familiar with gaslighting. Okay, got it. Oh, that. Oh, that. Oh, that little chestnut.

Oh, man. That's so clear to me. Okay, well, there's that. And people do it on all different levels, right? Right. Right. That's like a really clear version of it. But then people that do it, do it. Right?

People that gaslight, gaslight. So what happens in gaslighting is somebody is saying the uncomfortable truth out loud, and the other person cannot tolerate that. So they try to make the person feel like the uncomfortable truth is craziness. Yeah, right. Back in the day, I literally caught a boyfriend cheating, and he tried to make it seem like, I'm crazy, that he purposely planted those texts. Had a friend plant those texts just to prove that I was crazy. I was like, wait a second. Yeah. So it was It's like the extent that they go to is pretty unbelievable. Right.

And the question is sort of, you know, why did you choose that person? Yeah, it's a great question. And hopefully you're choosing very different kinds of people now. Yes, I think youth, you know, hopefully I've learned my lesson from, you know, growing up. And I think when we talk about that, too, a lot of people will let a bad experience color the next relationship. Right. So, you know, somebody did something really, really confusing and hurtful and kind of, you know, of scarring. And then you go into the next relationship and you say, I'm going to protect myself

from that happening. And then you actually create your own abandonment in the next relationship because you really are acting crazy in the next relationship. Because you're punishing the new person for what the old person did. The new person hasn't done anything, but you're already punishing them for something they haven't done and probably would never do if you've done your work and you're now picking better partners. Right. So it's really important to say, that was that experience. I'm going to keep eyes wide open because I want to make sure that I'm picking partners who

are compatible with what I'm looking for now. But if you go in and you're sort of like, you know, those people who are like, well, my last partner did this, so I need you to be really sensitive about this. It's okay, maybe to some extent. But if you have all of these things where they're now walking on eggshells with you, that relationship is not going to progress. in the way that you want. And would that be considered a projection?

Yes. And what are your thoughts on projections? That's one thing I think that is an interesting thing to look at. Like, whenever I'm upset about something, I try to see, is there a projection going on here? Like, is there something inside of me that's activated because I identify with that? Or is it really annoying? Do you know what I mean? Like, how do you think is the most useful way to identify,

projections. Right. So a projection is when you're feeling something and you accuse the other person of feeling that. So you say to your partner, you're so angry all the time. But you're the one who's so angry. That's a projection. What if I'm not angry? Like I don't feel ever, I don't feel anger really ever much. Yeah. But my husband's, I like to call him crunchy, right? He's just like a little prickly. He's prickly. He's prickly. And so I'll be like, what are you upset about? What are you mad about? And he'll always be like, I'm not mad. And I'm not either, but am I? Because he's prickly. I'm not saying that every time you notice the other person being angry that they're not. I'm saying what projection is is when the other person truly is not angry and you say, you're so angry. Why are you so angry? Right. But really you're angry about something and you're not really aware of it. And you want to get rid of that feeling. Projective identification is when you actually make the other person feel what you're feeling. So you get rid of it like a hot potato. Like it's like, I don't want to feel this uncomfortable anxiety. And then you create the anxiety in the other person.

And the other person is now feeling anxious. And you feel great. Now you're so calm because they're caring all of your anxiety. Yes. How do you protect yourself from that? I find that people love to throw the hot potato. And I do feel pretty good about not taking it on. But there's certain people where I'm like, I just exerted energy helping them out of that. And now I'm carrying the potato. Yes. Yes. I think that you get to choose whether you carry the potato. So you don't, you could toss it wherever you want to toss it. I wouldn't toss it at another person. Not another person. No. But I'm saying, you know, you can you can put it down the garbage disposal if you want. Right. Right. Right. Right.

You do talk about that in the book. I remember that being like, oh, I love that. That's a new insight of like, are we trying to get other people to take responsibility for our emotional state and take it for us, which is not kind? Well, it's how do we deal with our discomfort? So so many of us grew up not knowing how to be comfortable with sadness, anger, anxiety. whatever it is. And I mean, even if you think about how we might talk to our kids about that, even parents who are aware, you know, a lot of parents I see in therapy will say to their kids, you know, the kid comes home and says, I'm really sad because so-and-so didn't sit with me at lunch

today. And the parent might be like, well, that person's so mean. And then might be like, let's go get ice cream. Like, let's not feel sad. Right. Right. Right. And. And, or the kid says like, I'm so scared about this. And the parents says, oh, don't be scared. There's nothing to be worried about. And then the kid learns, oh, I don't even know how to sit with these feelings. That's right. And I don't know how to sit with somebody else with these feelings either.

And so if your kid comes to you and says, I'm really sad about this or I'm really worried about this or I'm really mad about this, there are three words. And this works not just for kids, but for your partner, for anybody, for a friend. these three words are magic. You say, tell me more. Oh, I thought you were going to say, I hear you. No, and you stop and you stop talking. And then they'll say, well, this and this and this. Wow. You say, oh, tell me more. And they feel the understanding because they feel your presence. You're hearing them and they are hearing themselves. They are learning how to talk to themselves through the feeling and cope with it. And they might come out at the end of this with, well, maybe tomorrow I'll try talking to her. Or maybe tomorrow I'll try sitting there again.

Or maybe she was mad because I didn't share my scissors with her and, you know, like they sort of talk themselves through it. And you can be, yeah, maybe. Yeah. Oh, that's a good idea. You're just there to sit and give them your presence. And your presence is not to fix it. It's not to tell them what to do. It's not to talk them out of their feelings, which is what you do when you say, like, let's go to Disneyland and let's, you know, it's like, let's just sit here with this. This is okay. There's no problem here. It's human to feel sad or left out or set. It's okay. And I'm here and I love you. And I will sit by you as you go through this. I am here. It's beautiful. That is beautiful because that's not my natural instinct, you know, is to do,

okay, how can I fix this? How can I help? You don't want to see your child distress. or anyone you love feeling these things, you always want to fix her to make them feel better. But one thing that we always do that we honor is, if Olivia's going through something really hard, or if I am, and in that moment we're like, I know you don't want to hear anything right now to try to make you feel better.

I understand how you're feeling and I'm going to let you be in these feelings, and when you're ready, we can talk about it. But even that, I mean... Yeah, but it's helpful. Like, you know, if I call her in distress over my... child, if she starts offering me solutions or Brightside, it makes me angry. It's like, it makes me feel like you're not meeting me where I'm at, right? And so we've gotten this,

we have this amazing groove of not doing that to each other. And what you're talking about is what so many people don't know how to do, which is how to listen. And what I mean by that is so many people listen in the way that they would want to be listened to, which is not always how the other person does. Like maybe when you're feeling that way, you just want to vent. But when the other person is feeling that way, they actually want some feedback or they just want a hug or whatever it is, right? You don't know until you ask. So when someone comes to you and they're saying, this thing just happened and I got to talk to you, what you can say to them is, how can I be helpful right now? Yeah. And just tell them, I just want, I just want to vent. I just want to tell you what happened.

I'm so riled up right now. Or I'm really confused about this and I want to go back and do something different. What do you think about it? whatever you're wanting in that moment and people forget to, it's not just one conversation. So sometimes it's like in the moment, you're really riled up about it and you want to say, hey, I just got to tell you what happened. And you just really want the other person to be there, to sit with you, to be present, to hear it, to be understood. And then maybe you might come back the next day or the next week and say, hey, remember that thing I was telling you about. I've been thinking about it. And I'm wondering if you can help me with that.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, my mom all the time, I'll call just to vent. And she's instantly, you know, offering way too much information or solutions or whatever. Maybe I'm like, Mom, I just needed to vent about this. You know, I don't need you to take someone's side. I don't need you to do anything else. Just listen. And what she's good at with everyone else.

But I think when it comes to her children, you know, how that is as a mom. But it's good. It's good with everybody, like with your kids, with your romantic partners, with your friendships, with family members. it's really good to be able to figure out to ask. We don't really ask. How can I be helpful right now? And to be able to communicate. This is what I want right now.

Thank you so much. Yeah. I really feel proud of the way we hold our friendship and really do that for each other because we're comfortable advocating for ourselves in that and saying this is what I really need. I need you to listen or I need help. I actually need help with this one. And then it's like, okay, that means.

I'm going to start throwing you solutions that I see possibly could help you, right? But I do think that advocating for oneself is important. So when you said, tell me more, I was thinking about the last time my son came to me, he said, I'm disappointed in a friend. And he told me the story. And instead of offering any sort of other ways of looking at it, I just simply said to him, I could see how that would feel disappointing. I do.

Yeah. I feel that. But now I'm like, oh, I'm like. Oh, I wish I could go back and tell me more. Well, he did, though. He told you the whole story. He did. He told me more, but I love that invitation.

Yeah. I really do because that's what it is. It's an invitation. Let me be here with you through this. Yes. It's almost like when we identify before having them tell us more, it's almost like we're ending it in a way. Right.

Right. It's kind of like there's nowhere to go with that. Right. Right. Yeah. And on the other hand, you know, I had this couple come in and she said to him, you know what, three words, I just really want to hear. She was really frustrated with him. And he said, I love you. And she said, no, I understand you. That's in your book. And I think that that's what we all want. So when you said, I could see how that would be disappointed, you were communicating that you understood him. But tell me more, says, I understand and I will sit by you through this. Yes. It's so much better. Because I'm always like. Like, I understand how you feel. It's like always my go-to. I understand why you're feeling this way. You know, I would feel that way too. But...

Yeah, but tell me more helps them to clarify how they feel. How they feel. And to communicate. It's not just parroting back. You know, like, I understand why that's disappointing, which is good and healthy. But I also think the Tell Me More just really opens up the space between you. You can see your kid will relax. Like, as they keep going through those iterations of Tell Me More, they just start to really feel calm. It doesn't feel so big. And they start to come up with, oh, well, maybe this or maybe that, or they realize what they need. Like, I think I just need to take a walk right now or, you know, whatever it is. They'll suggest to you what might feel better. Right. And that's the thing, too, is it kind of blows my mind when I work with people seeing them, like, all want to jump in there and be like, you should do this. But then watching them work through it and come up with things I would have never thought of. Yeah, I think the most valuable lessons in life and the biggest transformations come from the tiny steps that we take along the way to realizing something that we discovered on our own.

And it's so much more powerful than somebody else telling you that. It's like you taking those little steps and discovering it on your own. And that works for kids. That works for adults. It's all of that. But one more thing about listening that I think is important because I think that sometimes we can get listener fatigue, and that's when you're talking to somebody who is what I call a help-rejecting complainer. And help-rejecting complainers, we all know them, sometimes we have been

them ourselves, is when somebody says to you, like, I have this problem, and they want your help, and then you say, well, maybe you could do this, and they say, yeah, no, that won't work because, and then you're like, well, how about this? No, I can't do that because, right? And there's always a reason that whatever you're suggesting and you can suggest like five, 10 different things and they'll be like, yeah, no. Or they're, you know, they're just like, and then they just want to come back and complain about it every time. So the conversations with them are always about them complaining about the same kinds of things. You offer whatever kinds of suggestions and they never attempt to make any kind of change. They're getting something.

It serves them somehow to complain. And the way to deal with that is to say, wow, that sounds really hard, but I guess you're right. I don't really know what you could do about it. And then they're like, stuck because they can't complain anymore. Right. Because it's like, I don't really know. I don't really know. Nothing. You're right. Nothing works. I don't know what to say. Right. You know, it doesn't seem like anything that I've suggested is helpful. So maybe we should talk about something else because I don't really feel like I'm being helpful. And then you change the subject. And if they realize that you're not going to be the kind of, you know, depository for their complaints, they will either.

decide that they're going to find other friends that they can go complain to and wear them down, or it might actually give them a little bit of insight into how they affect other people. Right. And that might help them change. Would you say that that's similar to a contrarian at all? You mean like reverse psychology? Yeah. Like someone who's always contrary.

Oh, oh, them. Them. No, I think what it does is there's something about they're trying to sort of seduce you with their misery. that, you know, those people who the way that they connect is to say all of this is going on, and they don't really know how to have a conversation where there's not some sort of conflict that they're talking about. It's really about unresolved relational styles from growing up. And they're not really willing to look at that. So there might be some great qualities about this person and you really want to bring out the great qualities and not really be having these

conversations all the time about everything they complain about that they don't actually want help with. It's tricky, right? I've found, and with my husband, he'll have like a common complaint, right? And every time I've said the solution, I think it is. I'm like, I have a solution if you're interested, you know, and he'll be like, okay, what is it? And I say taekwondo has nothing to do with what he's complaining about. But it's been a 10-year running, thing that if he complains about this thing, my suggestion is taekwondo. Because it's like just go do something different. Right. You know, just go entrench yourself in something else and see what happens. And so now he's sick of hearing me say taekwondo, you know? So it makes him less apt to sit there and

dump that on me because he's like, I know she's just going to say taekwondo. Right. Right. And also, That's brilliant. Also, is there someone else where he can get the kind of feedback that he's actually looking for? Like, is there a professional therapist or a career coach or, you know, whatever it is that he's dealing with, who is the person? So that he's not just in that kind of learned helplessness place. Right. And I do think Taekwondo would be helpful. I do. I think it would be helpful for him to do. I agree. In my dear therapist column this week, someone was saying, you know, can I basically can I get my mother to go to therapy? and as a condition of X, Y, or Z. And I said, you can sometimes coerce someone to go to therapy,

but you can't force them to grow. And so when people are always saying, oh, I wish this person would go do Taekwondo, or I wish that they would go to therapy or whatever it is, you might be able to get them to try something, but if it doesn't come intrinsically from them, they're probably not going to get anything out of that experience. Right, right.

And so we have to be careful not to force the things that we value or even the things that we truly believe will be helpful for them onto them, that they really need to come to it on their own. And the more you push it, the less they're going to want to do it. So a great way to get people to go to therapy, by the way, do tell. Is by talking about how much it is helping, when they see you happier, when they see you in better relationships, and they're just little comments and they're not manipulative. It's just authentic that I feel so good today. I had such a great therapy session. I've been feeling good all day, right? Or it's like, wow, I really noticed that my friendship with so and so is so much

better since I've gone to therapy. I understand it's so much better. Yeah. So you don't bring it into the relationship with you. You bring it to, you know, I just feel so much better in my life. And they see it. Attraction, not promotion. Right. Right. I have a hard time with that with my family. members and wanting them to be sober. I do that all the time and my husband will be like, you gas it. You gas it. And what you're doing is you're pushing them away from it. Yes. And I believe that and I can feel it. But sometimes it's like such a motor that I'm like, I don't know how to stop it. Yeah. I think that when we realize that we don't really have control over other people, we can let go a little bit. Right. That's a hard one.

have to accept that. And it's a really hard thing to accept because you want the best for these other people. And sometimes you want the best for you, meaning that their behavior affects you. Yeah. Right. So it's both. It's not just altruistic. It's partly that you care about them and also that you want things to be better in terms of your relationship with them. But I think we have to really accept that we can't control other people, but we can influence other people. And I say this in couples therapy all the time. You know, there's a whole thing in couples where usually, one person wants the other person to change first. It's like if, if this person would just be nicer to me, then I would be nicer back, right? If this person would just offer to do the dishes, then I would be more willing to, right, those kinds of things. And it's not about who goes first. It's not like, you know, the pain Olympics. Like, my pain is worse than yours, so you need to go first. We always do that in relationships. You know, whose pain is worse and who needs to go first and who's suffering more, all of that. You know, like, I have the kids this many hours. And whatever it might be.

Yeah. And so I think we can influence people by actually going first. Yes. And that's what we don't realize. It's not about you go first and then I'll change. It's I'm going to make my changes. You'll do whatever you do. But I know that I'm making these changes for me.

Right. They make me happier to make these changes. And that usually influences the other person to change. It kind of has to, right? Because it doesn't fit into the dynamic anymore. Well, right. So, like, you know, I want you to be nicer to me. Just be nicer.

Do nice things for the other person. They're going to feel much more inclined to do nice things for you when you're doing nice things for them, just naturally. Yeah. What does my mom always say that the first lover has the power? Is that the saying? The first lover? Yeah.

It's not like you're saying the literal lover. It's the same sentiment of the first person taking the action. I like that word power, though, because I think it's very empowering to be the first person. because you have to let go of your expectations that you have the power to change the other person, but it is so empowering to know that you have the power to change yourself. Right. So it's not about, well, I'm not going to do this because the other person is doing that to me.

It's I'm going to be the person that I want to be in this relationship. And then let's see what the other person does. Maybe they won't change and that will give me information too. Right. Really useful information. Before couples even come into my office, I have them do an exercise. exercise where I say, I want you to come in the first session and tell me what you want to work on about yourself to make this relationship better, each of you. Not what you want the other person to do.

I don't want to hear anything about the other person. I want to hear what is it that you want to work on in our couples therapy to make this relationship better. And immediately, it makes them look at themselves, look at what they're doing in the relationship and to say, oh, yeah, I could do this better. So I'm going to work on doing this better. And they each work on their own thing, doing it better. And it really does influence the other person to do other things better. Right. It must be interesting to be in a relationship with you. You got to be, you know, I would imagine it takes a certain amount of chops. And I mean, I do believe we call in, you know, hopefully people we can play an equal tennis match with. But when you have

those kind of things, it's really important that they're mirrored back to you. Yeah. And I also think that we're all human. And so, I mean, just ask my son, right? So, I mean, he would tell you that I'm definitely not a therapist with him. I'm definitely a mom who, you know, has not her finest moments. And but I think that when we talk about relationship, we always talk about rupture and repair. And that's so important. You know, there are all those people who say, oh, you know, we never argue or we never have a disagreement. It's like, are you really talking about the things you need to talk about? Because two people will have differences. And so hopefully you can have nice, kind, respectful differences, but there's still differences. Or you might in a moment, you know, be just pushed to the limit from things external

to the relationship and you were not the kindest person that day. And so it's how do you repair it? It's not just will you have a rupture because you will. Every relationship does. It's, what does the repair look like? And is it timing? And is it time? and is it authentic and genuine? And do we know how to apologize? An apology does not include the word but. It's not, I'm sorry I did that, but. Right. Right. Right. Yes. It's not, I'm sorry I did that. And here's why. Maybe the why, but it's just, I was wrong. I shouldn't have done that. I'm so sorry I hurt you. It's my fault. Just take responsibility. And we really need to learn how to do that. I think it's so important. A really authentic apology where you are being accountable is worth so much

in a relationship. Completely. I try and teach my son when he makes an apology. I'm like, it's not just words. Like I always, if you are going to apologize, only do so if you're really willing to do it different next time. So if you say to me, Mom, I'm sorry, I yelled at you, and then you're going to continue to yell at me over and over, it's not really an amends, right? It's like, it's just words. But if you are going to do an earnest apology, can you then try to make a commitment to attempting to do it different the next time?

That's beautiful. And part of that is, and let's talk about what might help. So it's, I'm so glad I really appreciate your approach. apology because it did hurt my feelings. And let's talk about how we can work on this. Like, I'm here to support you. When you get angry, it's okay to be angry. People get angry. There's nothing wrong with anger. It's what we do with our anger. So instead of yelling, could you do 10 jumping jacks? Depending on their age, right? It depends on, right? But sometimes you need to just like release it, right? Could you do 10 jumping jacks in that moment? And I, you know, depending on their age, right? Yeah. I don't know.

I will know you are really angry. You can also use your words and tell me. But if you're going to yell when you use your words, maybe do 10 jumping jacks and let's move our bodies for a minute. And then let's talk about what's making you angry. And let's see if we can whisper when we're talking about it. Oh, I love that. This is so good. And let's whisper. And it becomes funny. And their anger sort of, you know, they become more regulated because what's happening when we're yelling is we're really dysregulated. So how can we self-regulate? And can we, can we whisper? Tell me why you're so angry. And then they'll tell you in a whisper, and it becomes funny and you're whispering back. And you're just validating, validating, validating, right? Yes, beautiful. And you hear you,

okay. Tell me more. Tell me more. Right. And maybe touch them because that helps. It give them a hug or just touch their hand, you know, calming them just to like get their nervous system to go back to baseline. And then you can talk about what's going on. And if they learn how to self-regulate in that way, it's going to be helpful in all of their relationships. But they know that you're you're not shaming them. You're not like, do not yell at me. Right? Because they don't know how, if they, they don't want to yell at you. Right. They just don't know how to control it. And they need some guidance on here's another way. I can get angry. That's okay. I'm human. But I need to learn to do something differently when I'm angry. And here are some strategies that I can use.

And I feel really supported in this. So brilliant. So good. It's so. And I literally am visualizing my son doing jumping jack right now. And I see that. You're thinking of belly. But I love that. And one of the things I love most about your book is I, too, really believe that humor is like one of the most healing tools we have. And I love that you bring it into that. And even in that moment, like, it can turn the anger and the jumping jacks into whispering where it allows for humor. Yes. Yes. And I think the humor is something that just, you know, I think we, we tend to take this whole when we talk about emotions. and feelings we think it's very serious. But again, if we can sit there and laugh at ourselves, not laugh at someone else, but laugh with other people. And be able to see that you're really loved even in these moments when maybe you're not your best self, then we can really feel comfortable. And I think that that's so important to learn. It is honestly. Brilliant.

And I think that that's where, you know, just to kind of bring this full circle, I think we were talking about stories earlier. And the stories that we tell ourselves, like these stories that we grew up with, like, I'm unlovable or I can't trust anyone or nothing's ever going to work out for me. We don't even know those stories are really there. And then we just play them out in the world. And if we can give our kids a different story, which is not like you're out of control or you're bad or whatever, it's like you're human and you're angry. And I'm going to be relational with you. We don't use those words, right?

But you're teaching them. I'm going to be relational with you right now because I understand being that out of control. But here are some tools. Here are some strategies. Let's try this. They're not going to grow up with those stories of like, I'm a bad person when I'm angry. When they get angry, as they will in any kind of relationship, they're going to say, like, what is the adult equivalent of jumping jacks, right?

Right. What is the thing that I can do? How can I communicate to my partner, my friend, that I'm upset with them right now? I'm angry. I didn't like that. Mm-hmm. What's another way to do that? Right, without becoming, like, making someone else the, what is it, the lightning landing?

Like the, they're sort of the punching bag. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they become the object. You know, when we talk about object relations and therapy, they become the object. And you project all of the other experiences like that onto whatever was just said or done in that moment. You know, they say if it's hysterical, it's historical.

Mm-hmm. Meaning if you're having a very, very big reaction to something that maybe was like a four, but you're like a nine, then you know there's some history coming into this. So if it's hysterical, it's historical. I don't mean, you know, again, this is not like that hysterical woman thing. This is not that because we're so tired of that. This is, if anybody of any gender is feeling like, I'm having, like you feel it in your body, like you're just seeing red. That's historical. And you have to just say to yourself, okay. There's something that truly did happen in front of me, so I'm not crazy. Like something did just hurt my feelings. But something else is being layered on top of this. And I need to kind of regulate myself. Now I might need to take 10 breaths. I might need to take a walk around the block.

I might need to say, you know what? I need a break here for five minutes or 20 minutes. And we'll come back and we'll talk about this. Yeah. My sponsor always tells me get right sized with it. Mm-hmm. Right? Like your reaction's at 10, but the event.

into two, can we get right sized with this? Yes. And really find what that size is. Yes. And for people with all that history that they haven't worked through, it's a process of figuring out what is that size without minimizing it. Exactly. Because a lot of people, again, don't want to feel like, well, then I just have to hold everything in and kind of push everything down because our feelings come out no matter what. You know, there are so many people who are taught don't feel your big feelings. They're bad. Like, go to your room, right? And so that helps not at all. And so the idea is it's okay to feel your feelings. And if you're allowed to feel your feelings, you will feel them in proportion to what is actually happening when you grow up. But if you were told you have to kind of squash them down or if other people had really big

feelings around you and they couldn't control them at all, then you just have no barometer for like what size the feelings really are. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest lessons of my life is I grew up with alcoholic parents, so I think the signal was what your feeling isn't real, right? Because we have to pretend that that's not life-threatening. So to the children, it's like, whatever you're feeling, we're going to make you think it's something else. So when you grow up in an environment like that, you're taught not to trust your feelings. And so my biggest mission in this life is to really teach my children that what they're feeling is congruent with their experience and really validating like you can trust what you're

feeling and I will be here for you to sit with you through it. Yes, yes. And the idea of congruency is so important because I think that when people feel like I shouldn't feel that, they talk themselves out of their feelings. And then what they do is the feelings don't go away. The feelings get bigger because they have no air. So here's how they come out. They come out in too much food or not enough food, too much wine, a short-temperedness, insomnia. They come out in all of these other ways. And then you think, you know, you don't realize, oh, I'm feeling that way because you don't even know that you're feeling anyway. You're just acting out your feelings. And I think it's so important that we understand that our feelings,

there's people say, oh, I don't want to have negative feelings. There's no such thing as a negative feeling, all feelings are positive and that they give us crucial information about our worlds, about our desires, about our needs, about our boundaries. So I'm feeling sad tells you, well, what are you missing in your life? What is, what is, are you missing some connection that you really want? Usually it's about a connection. Sadness is I'm not feeling connected relationally. You know, I'm feeling angry. Usually that's about a boundary violation. I'm not asking for what I need. I'm not holding boundaries. Even envy, especially women, women are like, I don't want to feel envy. That's taboo. Envy is the best thing that you can experience because I

always say to people, follow your envy. It tells you what you want. Women have such an ambivalent relationship with desire. Like, we're not allowed to desire too much. And so when you feel envy, that's great. It tells you about desire. I want something like that, my version of that in my life. So what is the next step that I'm going to take to get that. I love it. So instead of saying, I'm going to squash down my envy, and then I'm just going to live the life that I'm living, and I'm going to live this small life, and I'm never going to try for whatever it is, I'm not going to get in touch with my desire.

Take that envy and say, what a gift. Now, here's something that I think I might want, and here's the first step I'm going to take. I love that envy is propelling me. Beautiful. Yeah, that is beautiful. I do. I think it's absolutely gorgeous because it's, it's a very important.

is. It's like the things that trigger us are our gifts, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, our feelings are information. They're like a compass. They tell you what direction to go in. And if you squash down your feelings, if you try to minimize your feelings, it's like you're driving a car with no GPS. You have no idea what direction to go and your feelings are your map. How's your map doing, I mean, this was such amazing insight. And I'm taking away so much from this conversation that we've just had with you this past hour, hour and a half. And it just goes to show you how helpful it really is. And I know there was some questions we didn't get to, but quickly, if you can just recommend your favorite books for people listening, some that you either go back to or have taught you things or your favorites. Oh, wow. I have books the way like other women have shoes. Like all over. There's not enough room. They're just everywhere. It's a mess. I like fiction because I feel like the psychological truths that we all experience, we can see ourselves in those characters.

You know, even characters who seem very different from you. I love Elizabeth Strout's, all of Kitteridge and all of again. it talks so much about sort of the human condition and how we get in our own way and regret and how we can avoid regret. There's so much about like mother child stuff in there, about marriage. I love those. Like anything, anything by Elizabeth Strapp, any of her books. Wonderful. We'll be getting those.

Yeah, because we're doing a little book club. Yeah, well, that's next. Yeah, that's one of the most powerful things I think about your therapy is I love that you started as a writer. And, you know, in that storytelling, it's like so rich because you were already trained to look for the holes and the plot and the twist. And it really comes together in your book in such a way that it's like, oh, it all happened this way for this. Yeah. And thank you again. Your book really did get me through a very difficult time. So again, so grateful. Well, that's so nice to hear. And I'm so glad you guys are having these conversations. They're so important.

Aw, thank you so much, Lori. It was so nice to meet you. Thanks for having you. We could keep you for three more hours. We're like, wait, I have questions. All right, take care. Bye. Thank you so much. Okay. Bye. Bye. The difference between going to therapy and having Lori is that in therapy, you're not like really picking their brain as much. No, you're just talking about yourself. Yeah. Here's my thing. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't. I'm I was always like, I'm literally just talking and talking about myself. And I'm like, I don't like how that feels all the time. Do you think you've become more narcissistic having gone to a therapist?

Rob, I was talking about myself. If you please, let me continue. Go on. No, it just always kind of felt weird. I'm like, I'm paying someone just to listen to me. Yeah, it is a little weird. Because they don't talk and they'll give great insight, but like they don't talk that much. I know. Do you feel that? I do. It's very different than what I do.

No, because you talk a lot. Yeah. Like, I almost prefer talking to you about all of my many problems. Because you actually talk to me. And give me feedback. And then when I start picking my therapist brain, I feel like there's like a boundary there that they don't necessarily want you to do that. Because I'll be like, well, do you have kids? And what was it like? Like, what's up with your husband? And do you, you know? Yeah. I want to know the things. I know. It seems too indulgent to just sit there and talk about yourself. I mean, it's a little weird, you know.

But that's why my last therapist became like, I loved her so dearly. It was like a, you know, a second mom, you know? Yeah. Like listen and just give really good advice. But like, not too much. Yeah, she was solid. Do you think you could only have a female therapist? I've thought about that and I wonder.

You might fall in love with a male therapist? I mean, clearly with my track record, anyone I work with that's male, I wind up dating. So I probably shouldn't have a male therapist. I think that there's certain things where I'm like, do you really want to talk about like, you know, super, super detailed, like sexual things? But let's have a podcast about it and tell the whole world. The whole world's different. The microphone is the world. I just think that it would be, I don't know, what would you think about a male therapist?

My first therapist was actually a man, and I intentionally went with a man because I don't have and haven't ever had issues really with women in my life. And so I was like, you know what? I think that I need to go see a man so that I can learn to be vulnerable with men and feel safe with men and learn that it's okay to have a trusting relationship with men. And I had the raddest therapist. He was amazing. And I think he moved or something. Oh, he was going to say what happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he moved.

What's interesting to me is because clearly, like, my stuff is with men, too. It is? Clearly. Yeah, I'm telling her clearly because she obviously knows me so well. Rob, you probably could have said it as well. It's definitely not with women. But I'm so much more comfortable with men, like work-wise. You are.

Isn't that weird? Yeah, you're weird. I know. You're weird. Yes. Totally. I'm way more scared of and timid, like, women. That's so true.

And not men at all. Yeah, you'll, like, bro down. I'll bro down for sure. Yeah. I know. But you have really solid female relationships and a solid relationship with your mom. But outside of that, like, solid network, you tend to go more towards men. I know.

How do you feel about women? In general, do you like them? They're great. I'm a fan. He's a fan of women. But like, women are cool. Would you want a woman or a man therapist? I would probably prefer a male therapist.

Because you don't want to talk about erectile dysfunction without female? Yeah, exactly. Pretty mature ejaculation, all that stuff. But I think there is something to say for a woman, like, you know. Right, there's an openness with all things. But what was interesting was mine, she didn't have children. So, you know, does yours? Nope.

Interesting, right? I know. Yeah. Huh. I love Wendell in her book. I had a crush on him. Yeah. Who's Wendell?

Her therapist. Rob. Oh, so wait. Hold on, spoiler alert. This is our first book club. Woo. First book club episode. Maybe you should talk to someone.

We read Lori Gottlieb's book, who happened to be today's guest. Yeah. It's the second time I have read the book. Yeah. I read it a few years ago. I read it during the pandemic, actually. Mm-hmm. And it really helped me.

I have many, many. Did you forget what you read? I actually, no, what's weird is... You lost your book. I'm just kidding, because you said it helped you. I'm like, it did. We're going to start talking about the book now. Okay.

So if you haven't... If you haven't finished, spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Yeah. Yeah. Cue the music for the book club. So we're going to start the book club part of the show. Okay.

And part of that's going to be we're going to post about the book on our Instagram and invite listeners to... to have their own conversations about the book and continue our conversations. I love that. And then also, Olivia would love for you to make a video and tag her and brought ideas and give your thoughts on the book as well.

Yes, I would love that. So, spoiler alert, if you haven't finished the book, we're going to talk about it now. Okay. I love Wendell. Yeah. I got transference for him. Excuse me?

You get transference for your therapist. you don't know about this. What? Where you believe you're in love with someone that helps you. Oh. You fell in love with Wendell? No, but I got it for Lori. I didn't fall in love with him.

But when he grew out his beard and then she noticed his dimple, I was like, oh. Yeah, totally. Right? Yes. What did you love about him? It was just, obviously this is also like her writing, but just how I pictured him, like his demeanor. and his calmness and like just very still and matter of fact, but like super impactful.

Poignant. Poignant. Stoic. Were you attracted to him, Rachel? Yeah, for sure. You know, but just how he was like, just his whole way was very attractive. Yep. You agree?

Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. Like I was like, who was he? Is he still practicing? Is he single? Is he single? I think he's married. He's probably very elderly at this point.

Probably. Or actually, I don't know when she... We should have asked her when she actually wrote the book, like how long ago it was. I don't know. Like how long ago these things took place? You know what I was thinking about after our interview with her? I almost wish we had her back because I feel like we picked her brain. But we didn't really get her.

Like we didn't really interview her about her life But I think that's what she does Like I think she does interviews and this is her thing Yeah, no I know Yeah, you wanted to get to know her Yeah, for sure, I agree I think let's go through the characters Since this book is so driven by each of these different characters

It's like Game of Thrones You guys read Game of Thrones? Yeah, I read it a few times Where they have like the I'm sorry, does your first note say sperm? Yes, it does Okay. It does.

Let's start with Lori's story. So it starts with her boyfriend leaving her. Right. And he leaves her because she is a kid. And his kids are about to go off to college, and he doesn't want to deal with that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's what happened.

Mm-hmm. Okay. What I love most, though, before that is I love... Sperm. I love sperm. I love that she got a sperm donor and had her baby. Oh, yeah. You know?

Yeah. I really love that. I think that's a powerful message and really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Continue, Rob.

Well, I don't need to be leading this. But you have a whole outline. We're going to work off it. Well, I think this is relatable for you. Like, she is single in her 40s and figuring out is she tool to find love or not. Oh, my God. I do not relate to that. No, not at all.

No. No, I'm not looking for it. I could give two shits. Fine. And I don't think you think it's over. No. Rob. Yeah.

What the fuck, Rob? He's like, this facing death she's facing. You can relate to that. Basically, I'm walking around with like a fucking... Yeah. Jeez, Rob. No, all right. No, I cannot relate to like, oh.

This lost person facing death, looking for a meaning of life. Single mother, never going to find love again. Not at all. all. Like, I could not be more opposite than that. Well, that's not true. Oh, shit. What is going on? I quit book club. The only rule of book club is you can't quit book club.

Sure, sure, sure. Okay. Well. The first rule of book club. I related to her and the, like, fear of death and mortality and all of that. Same, especially as I'm coming into this age. I really relate to that. And I was like, like, oh, wow, that's a new way of looking at it. It's not that you're so much afraid of dying, but you're more afraid of, like, all the life you still have to live, like want to live. Yes, and it dwindling. Yeah. And her getting sick and having to face that,

that there's still all this that she wants to do and might not get a chance to. What was up with her sickness? Because I think it was undiagnosed. She just had symptoms and they couldn't figure it out. And they never do, right? Like she doesn't talk about... I don't think so. I mean, I think it was relevant to the overall point was that she was trapping herself in these situations. That's why my favorite part, and she talked about this on the podcast, is the cartoon that Wendell used with the bars.

And both sides are open. Yeah, I've been thinking about it. And you can choose to walk around it. Every day. Yeah, every day. I've been like, where's the open door? Like when I get stuck on something, I'm like, okay, could I look to the left or to the right? Where's the open door?

And I think that's like a really powerful image to be like, whoa, when I feel like I can't do something, like there's an open door. There's a way. Love is an open door. Yeah. I have to listen to that song. Oh, does Shepard love it? Yeah. Yeah.

And I think I relate to the like, jeezer. You relate to John, who's. thinks everyone's an idiot. Just her realization that she needs to commit to doing meaningful work beyond that, that she doesn't want to waste her time writing this book on happiness that doesn't resonate with her, wants to write this book instead. That's why I'm quitting the podcast. Me too.

This is my resignation. This is a waste of my time. I want to do meaningful work. I related to that as well, and especially because I started writing recently. and I feel like almost the exact opposite of her, like been doing the coaching and therapy, if you will, and it making me see how I want to dive deeper into storytelling. And it's almost the exact opposite of her as she was deep in the storytelling

and then dove deeper into the therapy. Therapy. Interesting. I know. I'm probably reading it because I think she's a really good writer. Yeah. I would think it would make you more motivated to be like, oh, to storytell. Because, yeah, you know what I mean?

Oh, 100%. Yeah. When you're doing your work, your life coach work, I think what I liked about this was Lori kind of identified with each of the people she was talking with and how she identified with them. Is that happening to you? All the time. One of the things that I thought was really powerful about what she talked about, I forget,

is it, it's not Carl Young. Maybe it is. The positive regard. you know, do you remember that when she talks about like the therapist should always have positive regard for their, and he's the one who changed it from patient to client? I don't think it was Carl Young. Oh, really? Yeah, but it used to be patient and then he turned it to client and talks about how like one

of the most important parts is having positive regard. And I feel like I really related to that in the sense that I see something in each one of my clients that is so incredibly lovable that there's part of me that just wants to expose that to the world where I'm like, oh my God, if the world could only see this, you know, like that to me is something, not only like do I relate to my clients, but I feel like I see something in them that is more magical than most people get to see in others. Do you also get the opposite or it? triggers your own fears? Surprisingly, no.

Which is really bananas. Or do you find things you hate in them? That you then realize is just triggering to you because it's something you hate in yourself? I've never had that experience. I've been triggered. Like, you know what I mean? Like if you're talking to someone and it hits something close to home,

but I think that there's something that, I don't know. I also only work with people that I like. Interesting. I wish I could say the same. There have been people that were tough for me and I let them go. You know what I mean? I like redirect them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in her book, you know, obviously there's some clients that... Well, let's get into one. There's John, the jerk. Yeah. But see, I feel like I would love him too like she does. Well, she eventually gets to that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a good example. I feel like most people have something inside of them that's lovable. I really do. Every person or most? I said most. I'm just curious. I think there's some people, in my opinion, that have like real deep psychological disorders that disconnect them from empathy.

So it's really hard to find that. But even the most toxic and narcissistic person, one, they're that way for a reason. 100% And two, there is still something lovable. Yeah, I mean, I've never really had a hard time finding lovable qualities in people. Do you think it is harder to want to help those people? Like what people, narcissists or people. It's like Lori in this case, if it's just someone that seems like a total asshole.

No, because for me, like I found John lovable. Like, I didn't see him as a total asshole. I was like, oh, this guy is. guarded as fuck. Like I knew there was something he was guarding and he would deflect and he would use his sense of humor or his power or whatever it was. It was like clearly he was protecting something super precious and vulnerable. And so I feel like that was transparent.

You saw that right away. Can you lend that empathy though to like the asshole on the street that honks at you? I'm actually have been accused of over-lending it like that's never been a problem for me personally like I find I'll be like oh yeah

sorry like I think that to a fault like the question for me more has been can you access your own anger or can you like it's harder for me to access anger than it is to forgive dang near anyone that's true

that's crazy very angry no you're not I'm super angry Yeah, how easy is that for you? Let's talk about that. I almost got into a full-blown, like, fight today with a security guard at the Getty. I'm not even kidding.

What happened? We were on a field trip with my daughter's class, and they were sitting in front of a painting, and the woman, you know, giving the tour was explaining it. And one of the kids was, like, sitting, like, people still needed to walk by behind them, but they were sitting on the floor. And, like, his jacket was kind of behind him and his legs. And this security guard was like, looking, he's like, he needs to be. sitting, like, people have to be able to get by, like, looking, and I just wouldn't look at him while he was talking to me, because I was so pissed because he was being such a dick. And then again, like, this little kid, his jacket was there and he's like, I'm sorry, I have told him 10 times.

He cannot be sitting. There was no one else in the room. No one was trying to walk by. I literally, like, could feel the anger, like, bubbling up inside me. Like, I wanted to be like, bro, chill the, like, nobody is in the room. Like, even the woman giving the toilet. Like, even the woman giving the tour was like, kids, thank you so much for listening. So while you guys are doing a grit, because she was like, what is wrong with this guy? He was so intense. Next level. I literally was about to throw down with like a very enormous security guard inside the Getty

with Louis the 14th. It sounds like a spoof or something. Yeah, it was so intense. And like, maybe I'm getting my period to like, you know, the anger bubbles up a little easier. I felt it when I walked in the room today. I was like, I was like ready to throw down with this dude. I was so, I was like, dude, just shut the fuck up. Like, I was so mad.

I'm still mad. See, but I get that for children. That's the only time I've ever felt like that kind of anger is if like someone's mean about my kid or like. Yeah, but he could have been saying it about like the adults and I still would have gotten angry. So it wasn't a kid thing. It was just this guy being a dick. Or the period thing. Yeah.

What about you? Do you get angry? I get angry, but I think I get quickly to where you're at where. where mostly I just have pity is the wrong word, but some sort of compassion. Oh, that sucks that that's where you go or that's how you're expressing yourself. But like if you and Natalie get in a fight, are you one to yell or no? No. You never yell in a fight?

No. Do you? I mean, I think that I've raised my voice before, but it's usually to like calm the other voice down. And I have to do it with my kids. Like I, and this is the problem, like, I hate it. I hate having a yell. I hate being stern. I don't like the way it feels.

Like, I wish they would just listen when I'm like, okay, baby, come on. It's time for whatever. But they won't, so it'll get to the point where I'll have to be like, I've told, you know what I mean? And I have to step into that. And I don't like the way it feels. It doesn't feel right to me. Yeah, I get that.

But, like, Jeff is a crunchy guy, right? And if he raises any sort of tone, I'm immediately, like, you cannot, you know? And he's like, I'm just talking and I'm like, no. No, you're yelling. You're yelling. Yeah. And so he's like, I think it's because I grew up, like, in a home with, like, a mom and, like, single mom. And there was no, like, gr.

Well, we all yell. But I think it's because my grandpa, like, he would always yell with my mom and stuff. And we're Italian. So, like, we yell. Let's hear it. We've heard of yell plenty. I yell. Like, at my brother, are you kidding me?

Yeah. Yell. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have a shorter fuse with family. Siblings and family, sure. We yell Rob all the time. It's real nice.

Yeah. That's true. That's true. All right. So then John, we learn his kid was killed. Awful. In the car accident. It's awful.

I can't with that. It's too much. It's really, really painful, really hard to look at. I found myself going, nope, and I'm not going to read that, and I'm, nope. And it's almost like this crazy thing that happens where it's like an immediate shutoff of being unable to even look at that. And I think that it's important to not do that. because it's real for people. And they need people to...

It's so hard. Look at that. You know? That was brutal. Instantly, though, the thought that comes forward is, oh, I want to die. Like, I would want to die. I don't know how you keep going.

I don't know how you would go on if one of your children. I can't even think about it. Like, I have these morbid thoughts of like, I only have one. Like, am I doomed? Do you know what I mean? Like, that morbid feeling of like, oh, I'm fucked.

Like, if anything ever happened. happens to her, you know? I can't. Can we not? This is really. Yeah. See, this is what I'm talking about. What are you looking at me? But that really happened. Way to go, Rob. That really happens. It's an important thing and there's people that go through that and there's people that have lost their children. And, you know, I think for them, they need us to be able to look at it and talk about it and not screwed away from it because it's too scary, right? Mm-hmm. Well, then moving on from the cancer to the yeah let's jump right I cried I cried I'm like told tell me if I was alone in this but when she said she wanted to work at Trader Joe's I was like oh my god everyone

apps so fucking literally like when I check out at Target and you can do self-checkout I'm like I want to do this I want to work and I want you want to be a self-checkout robot no I want to I want to I want to be a cashier like to check people out I miss Especially though the vibe at Trader Joe's. Yeah. She wanted to work at Trader Joe's? Like that said everything. Everything.

Everything. You love her. I know. All right. So we learn she's young. She's about to get married. Yeah. Yeah. And she finds out she has cancer.

Yeah. Yeah. I just, I loved her. And like, Lori really loved her. Oh, yeah. You know? And you know what she did is she wanted to find a new wife for her husband. Yes.

I was like, see? That's you. Yeah. I was like, see? I'm not crazy. Uh-huh. I know. What was her name?

Julie. Yeah. In the book. What did you think about that, Rob? I mean, cancer is like one of my biggest fears. It's like finding out I have that and then having to sit and face that. Or this is going to happen in six months or five years. TikTok.

Right. Yeah, it's heavy. It's all heavy. This is so heavy. The next book should be like Chelsea Ham, It is heavy. There's so many beautiful things in the book, though. Well, and there's so many parallels through all of these stories of fears and things that everyone as a human is dealing with.

Yeah. Yeah, and also there's something beautiful about what it's like to face your life knowing that you don't have time on your side. Like, I think we've talked about this before. There's like, do you know about the blue zones where they track the highest number of, sedentarians, the people that live the oldest and the healthiest lives. But one of the things they have in common is they face their mortality every day. And that's like a way to live a more purpose-filled life is like knowing this is... Well, yeah, she's able to find more gratitude for everything that she has currently. Right. Yeah. Then there's Charlotte. She's the promiscuous

one. The drunk one. Did you relate to her? So hard. I actually related to her a lot. Yeah. I really did. I didn't even think of her as promiscuous, Rachel. I put a note, Rachel probably relates to just how she's attracted to emotionally unavailable people. What are you fucking talking about?

Oh, my God. That's not in my mouth. No. Wait, no. Okay, but here's a fun game. Yes. Well, we know who you're going to pick, but no, you're not. based on their character.

Based on who each person was in the book. Lori, Charlotte, John, Julie. Rita. Rita. Is Rita the older one? Who do you identify with the most? I want to hear from both of you. I mean, there's only one male, and I don't identify with him.

That's what I mean. So just based on their character and their life and who they are. I don't identify with the person dealing with cancer, because I don't. have cancer right now. I'm not an old woman. Strange from her children. I've taught you manifesting language. I don't want you to apply it when it comes to cancer, though. Because you said I don't have it, like now, yet. Like, you don't have it. Carry on. I mean, I, yeah, I don't, I didn't fully relate. Like Lori, there were bits and pieces about each character that I related to. You're Wendell. You're totally Wendell. You're totally Wendell.

Wendell tap that leg, wrong. Yep, tap that leg. Sure, Wendell. Your turn, Rachel. I probably would say Julie, don't you think? Oh, Julie. Yeah. Interesting, yeah.

You know? Yeah. More so. Not everything, but I don't know. You don't think? Well, expand. Yeah. Tell us why.

Because I want to work at Trader Joe's. Well, do you feel like you've lived, like, your peak? What? I don't. Jesus. You've lived Like I'm not dying

Will you pick Julie? I want to try to help you figure out why. I don't know. I just loved her. We're going to leave it at that. Olivia. It's your turn. I related to Rita.

No. Charlotte. Yeah. Because it took me back to a time in my early 20s and growing up with alcoholic parents. then becoming an alcoholic myself. And I just totally related to all of her whole get-down.

I related to pieces of Charlotte. You did. What piece? I mean, this was all pre-marriage and relationship, but the kind of messiness of her all relationship-wise. Yep. I mean, I literally, when I was reading it, I was like, if I was in the waiting room and that guy came in,

I'd be, yeah, I'd be with him. It's like the episode of sex in the city, you know, when she starts dating. Yeah. Was it John Bon Jovi? Who was it? John Bon Jovi. It was, right? It was John Bon Jovi.

Yeah. John Bonn action. I think maybe mine would be Lori minus the whatever you said in the beginning, Rob. Maybe that would be more her. Do you think? I don't know, guys. I don't really see Lori for you. No, I think Julie.

Julie seems more. Julie's got more of like... I think I'm Wendell. No, you're not. You're not Wendell. I know, I'm just messing around. I actually think you're more Julie. Yeah, I do too.

That's why I said it. Yeah, we can give you Julie. Thanks. Thanks, guys. You know who I felt a lot of compassion for was Rita. Well, you were kind of on the other end of her. Like, did you relate to her kids? Did you see your mom in Rita?

Because she's the one that's divorced. had an abusive husband. But that's the thing I don't relate to because I didn't grow up in an abusive household. And like... Didn't blame your mom for... No. Like my mom, I never got hit. Like I never... My mom didn't...

My mom was an alcoholic, but she was a sweet heart of a human and mom. Well, yeah. Rita was just sad. I know. She was alone and lost. Her kids wouldn't talk to her. Yeah, but I mean, her kids,

didn't talk to her because she didn't protect them from being beaten. Right. Right. So I think that what I feel in that is like that's really incredibly sad. And obviously she should have protected her children. But she was punishing herself for so long. I did like the what, share of phobia, the fear of joy that she was always waiting for something to go wrong. Do you relate to that?

I think so. I think I'm getting better at that. What are your thoughts on that? I can definitely see you having that. Right? Oh, thanks. I think that most people have it. Yeah. Things are too good to be true most of the time.

Yeah. I think people are equally afraid of experiencing joy as they are fear, which is really sad because if you turn off one feeling, you turn off all feelings. Well, it prevents you from being present. It prevents you from actually being happy and having gratitude for what you have. Yeah, I mean, how many times have you felt that? I know I've felt it a million times where something really good feels like it's brewing inside or like, oh, my God, this is an incredible opportunity. And instantly, your guard will come in and be like, oh, it's not going to work out.

Or no, it won't happen. Or, oh. I have like a superstition where I will not talk about it until it happens. Like, I won't allow myself to get excited about something or count on it until it's like... Definitely not count on it until it's happening. This is happening and actually happening. What about you, Rachel? I think I understand that, but then I don't let myself get too...

Because that's fear, and so I don't let myself lean into it too much. Because, like, I will do that. I'm like, oh, no, it's not going to happen. And I'm like, wait, what am I doing? That's just... I don't... I think for me... Or superstitious or whatever.

It feels superstitious, but it's more not building up my hope and building this fantasy around the potential of this thing to then be let down. Have you experienced that before where you had a lot of let down? Yeah, plenty. Really? Well, it's because I've also had the opposite. Which is? Like, Dax and armchair happening. And that was coming together.

It was like, no way that's too good to be true. Yeah, kind of it is. Yeah. All of that. So I think that's almost right-sized things a little bit. I think it brought me to a point where all of those things didn't happen, didn't work out. And now it allowed this to happen. Right.

But do you feel that even in that you were protecting yourself or were you able to let go and enjoy the ride and be like, oh shit, this is happening? Or were you still protecting an aspect? I'm still on that path and journey. Yeah. It's tricky. How do you block yourself from that or pivot when you're having that? Yeah, because you audition for things. You get things, almost get things, do chemistry tests, all of that.

What is? I don't let myself get excited unless I get the job for sure, you know. So I understand that, but how do you stay present with it? What's your process? Well, what are you going to do? Literally. I've told that story, right, on the podcast? I don't think you have.

What story? I haven't told you this story. It's a great moment to tell this story. This is my motto in life. We've got to get that tattooed on our bodies. I was thinking, if I get anything, it will be just that, like, in one line in cursive, like, all together. Okay. What are you going to do?

Oh, my point are you going to do? Okay, so I was at my grandmother's funeral. She died. She died. I was super close to her. We were at the after. After party? At Geats diner in New Jersey.

It was your favorite diner. The dinner afterwards. You know, the reception. Whatever you, you know. Yeah. We've all been to you. After I saw her body in the casket, which was great. And I'm in the bathroom, and I just peed and I came out.

And Minnie, one of her best friends, I was crying. You know, I was really upset. Walked up to me. And she said, oh, honey. I'm sorry. I can hear you laughing. Minnie came up to me and said, oh, honey, I'm so sorry about your grandma.

Well, what are you going to do? And then just walked out of the bathroom and left me there like stunned. Like, what? But anyway, really, really changed your life. That was the moment that changed my life. So now my mom, our whole family, Olivia, Leah, we all.

That's our go-to. Anytime anything, we're like, well, what are you going to do? It's a game changer. It's a game changer. We'll have a good cry session and then be like, Grandma you make it because she was, it was Minnie.

It was Minnie in Keith's diner. Your grandmother was a wonderful woman. She was so sorry about your grandmother. Well, what are you going to do? It's pretty epic. Anyway, that's my motto. Stick into it. It's a good one.

It's a great one. Because scientifically, you know what you're doing there? It's a pattern interrupt. So your pattern would be like, oh, it's not going to happen. You just go, well, what are you going to do? Instantly changes your mood, brings you to a different state of mind. It's literally a pattern interrupt. If I ever get a tattoo, I could do that.

Yeah. Well, what are you going to do? You should get her face, though, with like a speech bubble. Just right, Minnie. Oh, well, what are you going to tattoo? Oh, geez. Oh, my God. I almost went into autopilot.

So at the end of every session I do, I always ask the same question because I think it's a good way to anchor in what just happened in the last hour. So I always say, what is your biggest takeaway? And let them reflect on what did they just get from that last hour? So for the book, Rob, what was your biggest takeaway? Rachel gets to go first this time. What was your biggest takeaway? the cartoon. Oh, that's a good one.

Yeah. That's a good takeaway. Because you can use it so much every day, all the time. I don't always. I've been using it. I've literally been using it. No, it's a great exercise session. Yes.

Yeah. It's so good. I love it. I think mine is probably moving away from the sharephobia and fear of joy and trying to be more present. and not let disparaging thoughts prevent that. Word. What about you?

You know, I think my biggest takeaway is to live like I work at Trader Joe's. I like that part too. I could relate to that. Yeah. Just like be present, be in the moment, have a good attitude, just being like right here, right now. And open for kind of these micro interactions to be more meaningful. Yeah.

That's a good one. I like that one too. You see me next week? I'd be so excited. You would geek. I know. You'd be like, what are you doing here? All right, well, that was our first book club.

Wrong is so astute. He's so precise. Official in his outline and like... He wore an outfit and everything for it. His cardigan. I dress like Wendell. He dressed like Wendell. You feel Wendell.

I think you feel Wendell. Mr. Wendell. Hey, yeah. What if it was about Wendell? Or maybe. It's not because she changed names. You know what I started thinking, though? It was like, how many fucking people have transference for Jeff?

Uh-oh, there she goes. I know. Look out. All right, well, so we'll post next month's book with this episode. We need to... Or what? Who's picking Olivia's turn? Olivia's going to post her pick.

Olivia's posting her pick this week. By the time this episode's out, we'll have our pick. Yeah. Okay, okay. Sounds good. So, what is it? Broad underscore ideas underscore pod. Couple things. Yep. Just before we wrap it up, our conversation with Lori, a few, like, really big takeaways because we did take away from the book. I have been using, because we spoke to her.

You've been using again? Shut up. All the time with Breyer and her friends, tell me more. Yes. Have you? Yes. Yes. It's so good.

I did it with Elliot when he told me that his crush. Yeah, I can't handle it. when his crush didn't... Crushed him. Didn't feel the same. Not only did she not feel the same, she said to her friend, they said, do you have a crush on Elliot? And she said, no, not even a little. They're too young.

They're too young for that, too. They're not even online in that way. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. And the other one, which was so good and so right, and we do it all the time. Yes. When you don't tell your friends. When you don't tell your friends the red flags while you're in it. And then once it's over,

those red lights are like alarm lights what it's called like the sirens sirens thank you can we get some examples from you Rachel no but like well yeah give us something

you've been in enough relationship I've dated so many guys let's just pick one pick the worst like yeah like if a guy doesn't he goes and gets a glass of water for himself and doesn't get you a glass of water and like you notice it

Like you notice it. You note it. But you don't tell your friends. Yes. Like even little things like that. Little things. And then after the fact, you're like, he never got me a glass of water. Right. You're like, it's fine. These other things, the other things are good enough. So these are whatever. Or I'm overthinking this. This doesn't actually mean anything. Yeah, but if it didn't, then you would say it to your friend. Right. Be like, is this weird? And they'd be like, yeah. You know what I mean? But it wouldn't be a big deal. I mean, yeah, there's things, man. For sure. The worst red flags you had. ignored?

Ever in my life? What's the worst? I'll give you one. Okay. I didn't ignore it. This was actually like the deal breaker. Yeah. But there was a girl I was seeing and she kept getting drunk and passing out places. Oh.

And I was like, I'm not going to deal with this. I'm not the type that. That's harsh, Rob. Yeah. Jeez. I'm just kidding. I just, I knew that if I was in a relationship, that that would be way too hard for me,

to be worried and concerned about that all the time. Oh, the red flag? Do you have any that you can think of? I'm like, this is a carnival. What's all the red flags for? The biggest red flag, Amy, their girlfriend, I don't know. I don't know. That's a big one.

Rachel, what's your biggest red flag? You might have to help me with this one. I mean, that one. That one, can you tell me your likes and dislikes on my Instagram? Yeah, what? Yeah, that's about. Someone DM'd you that? This is before the first date.

It was? Yes. Oh, that's bad. He asked you to go through his Instagram and tell you likes and dislikes. Yes. That is hardcore weird. Mm-hmm. And what does it say to you?

Like, what's the red flag? And the guy's a douche? Dush. Dush Lord. Yes. Insecure or? Just weird. All of it.

All of it. All of it. It's so weird. Huh? Like, what? That's a good one, though. That's pretty bad. It's so bad. It's really bad.

Since you're the only single one. Yes. In the room. Yes. Can we make a commitment? Can you make a commitment to us? To talk about red flags. Talk about red flags.

Next relationship as they're happening. Who said there's a next one going to be a big relationship? If there is one. We're even live? Not live. No, no. I was like, that's a harsh commitment. What I'm saying?

Do you learn, are you taking away anything from that? Oh, yeah. Now I like see them and I'm like, no, this isn't for me. Like, I'm clear. What I have learned in my old age wrong. And you're withering. Facing more than. Like, geez.

Climbing down from the mountain top. I clock the things and I actually reflect on them and think about it. You know? And you decide like, are they? deal breakers? Does it work for you? Or is it like... Right. And some of them aren't necessarily deal breakers. But the fact that you're not telling your friends... Yeah. It's not a good sign. It means it's a flag. Yeah. Yeah. I do think there is though, like if you like the person you're dating them, you don't want to

call out every bad thing about them either. No, but there's a thing that people do that if they like register it and are not saying it, it's like there's a registration that happens. Like if it's just a weird thing you don't like, like there's no weight to it. You're just like, yeah, whatever, he always uses my toothbrush. Like that's a deal breaker for me. Oh, nothing grosses me out more. Sorry. I agree.

Yeah, it's disgusting. I had to use one of my kids' toothbrushes the other day. Oh, no. I had to. I'd rather use the toilet scrub. I put it under hot water, but I didn't have access to my toothbrush, and I wasn't about to leave the house without brushing my teeth. I can't leave the house without brushing my teeth.

I feel you on that. So I put it and ran it under hot water, and I used it. There are some things, though, that I'm open with when I'm dating someone if they're like a little like, hmm, like I'll talk about. Yeah. I wonder what differentiates the things that I'm willing and the things that I'm not. I think the other things are more telling. Interesting.

Are the things you're willing to talk about sexual? Yes. Yeah. 100%. She's never weird about that. She was like, he made me. I'm like, oh, Lord. Does that have anything to do with things that you're insecure about, insecure about?

No. That's not a part of your relationship that you're... No, it's not an insecure thing. It's just the thing that the other things are like clearly deal breakers. Or clearly like really telling about a person. Right. Things that reveal more about their character. Yeah.

Yeah. Like the things about like whatever, if it's sexual or if it's weird or they're king. Like you can work on sex things or whatever. But if it's a character thing where you're like, ooh, that was noted. Harder to quote unquote change. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

This is fun. This is fun. I think we're good. I'm hungry. Let's go eat dinner. Yeah. All right. Bye.

Bye. Bye. That was a hate gum podcast.