Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Mel Robbins on The Let Them Theory

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Rachel and Olivia talk to author and the number 1 global podcaster Mel Robbins about her book The Let Them Theory. Make sure to check out Mel’s podcast The Mel Robbins Podcast. Watch the video episode HERELike the show? Rate Broad Ideas 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts and SpotifyAdvertise on Broad Ideas via Gumball.fm See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a headgum podcast. Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yello, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room,

and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hax podcast, on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes talk about dogs talk about because people die. Welcome to broad ideas. Thank you, Rachel. You are so welcome, Olivia.

You should take this. No, this is, you should take this. Let them. Oh. Let them take this. Kevin, you want to take this? Sure. Today's guest is the incredible Mel Robbins.

Icon. Yeah. Legend. All of it. Yeah. Like there's not even, we don't have to say anything. We should just let her talk. Let her.

Oh my goodness. Well, yeah, like Olivia said, I'm just going to repeat. I'm so excited to talk to you. And thank you for being here with us. Of course. Thank you for the invitation. Yeah, for everything you do. And your podcast, which is the global number one,

podcast, 200 million downloads. I mean, that is just insane in the best way. How cool is that? You know, I am definitely an ambitious person, but I never imagined anything like this. And I just think it's really cool that at this moment and time, people are interested in listening to things or reading things that are going to help them feel a little bit better and improve their own. life. And so to me, that's the most encouraging piece of it. And of course, as a 56-year-old woman, I just think it's really cool that the example is that it's never too late, that even from above your garage in Vermont, even when you really profoundly underestimate how complicated it is to launch a podcast from the floor of your closet, that you can still figure it out, you know, and that there are, that that if you think somebody's already done it, that's not true.

Right. Because they haven't done it the way you're going to do it. And there are people in the world that will really resonate with what you have to say because of your experience. And so if my success is something that inspires other women in particular to get into this space or people that feel like, okay, I'm too old for that to try something new, then I feel like leading by example is. a life worth living if it helps people really tap into the possibilities in their hearts, in their minds, with their art, with their life stories. And so that to me is like the coolest thing about this. I think that's the coolest thing in the world. I know you've been an inspiration for me for all of those reasons. And, you know, I think that aging as a woman, as a man, too, I'm sure I don't

know that experience, but as a woman, you know, hitting 45 years old and going, I feel like I have a... Wait, you're 45? Yeah. Not to say that that's old, because I'm basically... No, no. I say the same thing in the mirror. I'm like, you're 45? Wow. I'm 43. I mean, you have the energy and the presence of somebody who I would have pegged in their 30s. Well, I feel that way. And so do you. And that's what I look at. And I do see part of myself in you of like, I have this feeling like I'm just

getting started. And when I see you, you hold that energy like it's new. And that to me excites me in, it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel like I've been doing this thing. Like you have a newness to everything you say. And it feels like you're just getting started. I believe that. And you know, it's interesting. You said you're 45? Yeah. So if you're 45 and you're 43, let me just put into context what's possible, because you are right. No matter how young or old you are as you watch this or listen to this, you are only just getting started and you have no idea what you're capable of. And what I want to invite you to do is not think about what you can accomplish in the next week or what you can accomplish in

the next year. But let's use my example as an invitation to open up your mind and your heart to what may be possible for you. So you're 43 and 45. And when I was 41, I had three kids. who were under the age of 10. My husband had gone to the restaurant business. We were $800,000 in debt. I thought I had failed at life. I had tried being a lawyer. I had tried like nine other different careers.

I wasn't happy. I didn't know what to do with my life. And I was telling myself, and one of the reasons why I felt so stuck and so discouraged is I basically figured I hit my 40s, I had my runway, I've really screwed up.

There is no way that I can ever recover or be anything different than somebody who never figured their life out. And that was the drumbeat in my mind over and over and over again. And it was during that period of time that out of sheer desperation, I created this little countdown trick that a lot of people now know called the five second rule where you count backwards, five, four, three, two one to launch yourself out of bed. And it became this tool that I used to start launching myself forward. Now, fast forward, I'm the age 43. I am still $800,000 in debt.

I am still struggling with anxiety. My husband is still struggling in the restaurant business. And the reason why that's important is because even though I was moving forward two years later, and I'm making the ends meet and I'm actually able to pay our bills, but I can't touch the debt, and I'm working several jobs, and he's still struggling in the restaurant, I'm starting to move forward. When I get to the age of 45, my husband is now out of the restaurant business. We're still $800,000 in debt.

I am still just putting the pieces together. And I am now, because word about this 5, 4, 321 thing has gotten out, I'm now starting to make money, speaking at small events, explaining the five second rule. And by small events, I want you to imagine that you are in. Omaha and you are going to your local remax realtors conference at the Marriott courtyard. And after you get the free brunch in the lobby, you're going to walk down that long hallway on the first floor. And at the end of it's going to be some sort of ballroom situation with roundtables. And you're going to sit there and get some training from Remax and then you're going to do a brown bag lunch with a speaker. That was my job. Like it was not glamorous. Right. It was

not, you know, anything. My husband was now home with the kids, getting sober, recovering from the shame of failing in business and losing our money. And I am now flying around making money, speaking at small events, and it just started to build from there. And the reason why this is an important context is because at 45, I was just beginning. I was just beginning to chip away at the debt, I was just beginning to learn how to stand in front of people and speak. I was just beginning to break through the imposter syndrome. Who am I to do this? What credentials do I have? And pushing through it every single day. And I thank God every day that I had crushing bills to pay because when you have a massive problem like that, you will do whatever it takes to get the

job done. And that became my motivation. And so if you then fast forward to where I am today, and most people in the world are meeting me at this moment and going, how did she do that? Right. And so I want you to understand something. You literally have no idea what you're capable of, but until you actually give yourself permission to say either where my life is is not making me happy anymore and that alone is all that you need to start changing it or what you're doing, which is, I've started something and I'm going to tell myself that I'm just at the beginning.

And I have no idea where this is going, but I'm excited that I'm giving myself permission to try something new. That's what you need. That's all that you need. Wow. Yeah. She's a Libra. I know. I saw your birthday.

I know. Me too. I was like, you are on your birthday. October 14th. Oh, we're close. I'm October 6th. Yeah. Yeah.

I saw that. But she's been quoting you to me for a very long time. And she... And you still invited me on? Yes. No, it's like literally every day she finds a way to bring it into our conversations and our lives, in particular mine right now. But, you know, the whole let them theory that obviously is your new book and it's so, like, it's so profound, right? But it's also so simple.

The juxtaposition of that is just, in just listening and being like, Oh, like it's so clear. But you have to sometimes hear it, you know, in a certain way or it be brought into context in your own life. But what an amazing thing to see. And she was the first one to tell me your theory before, you know, it kind of, it's like obviously taking the world by storm. And every person's posting on Instagram with reading the book and listening to the book,

our friends and everything. And you were the first person to tell me about it. And I'm just so grateful. And it's so cool to see, and you hear your whole story, you know, and especially at 45, because we're, you know, comparable ages now. But to hear that is so inspiring. And everything that you're bringing is so inspiring. What did you get at? How are you using the let them theory and why is it making a difference in your life? How many ways can you chop it? Should I go through every like, boy or whatever you want? No, it's, it's, it's, it is. is challenging. Actually, here's a question, okay, because I have people in my life that, yes, the let them theory. But what if it's a person who has certain personality disorders or things like, you know, narcissism or whatever that, like, yes, let them? But when it's affecting either you or someone you care about in a really negative way, how do you apply it there? This is an excellent question. So I have somebody in my life who has a narcissistic personality style. They have been in my life for a very long time. And I always used to brace around this person. I for decades have held out the hope that this person will change. I have constantly turned it back on me because I have,

believed that there is something that I can do that will change this person or that will control their mood or that will make our interactions less exhausting. And what happens with the let them theory is that the let them theory is very simple. When you let people live their lives, your life gets better. When you let people be who they are, your relationships get better. And I want to unpack what this actually means because it doesn't mean let people abuse you. Right. It doesn't mean take anybody's shit. Right. You're already doing that. What it means is understand what true power is and understand who has control and who doesn't. And so in any situation where you're with somebody with a very challenging personality or a lot of immaturity, you're dealing with somebody who through their

behavior and their challenging personality and through their emotional immaturity or abuse, they are revealing to you who they are. When you say let them, you're not letting them abuse you. For me, in this particular relationship, I started saying, let them be narcissistic. Let them be immature. Let them get upset about the stupidest things. And when I would start to say let them, something interesting happened. I was actually able to draw a real boundary between who this person is, how this person behaves, what they do when they are upset or frustrated or are not the center of attention,

and separate myself from that human being, let them. versus me. Right. See, the power in that relationship dynamic, for decades, I gave the power to the other person. I'm the one tiptoeing around. I'm the one bracing. I'm the one bending over backwards. I'm the one saying to myself, am I fucking crazy?

I know I did. I know I talked about this before. I never said that. Like what is going on? You start to gaslight yourself. Right. And that's part of why these relationships are so challenged. because there's psychological manipulation going on.

And you're a nice person, which is why it's happening to you. And so when I started to say, let them, it forced me to, A, give up hope that they're changing, which is one of the hardest things in the world to do, especially if you're dealing with an ex that you have children with, or you're dealing with a parent, or you're dealing with a sibling, or you're dealing with an adult child,

somebody that, for lots of reasons, lots of reasons you want to have a relationship with. And so when you say let them, it's so interesting. Like for years, if I were going to see this person, I'd be bracing. I knew the formula. We would have two great days, and then the third day, all hell breaks loose. The second this person went on edge or started venting about something or, you know, started triangulating and trashing the person that just walked out of the room

or griping about it. I would go on edge. I'd start tiptoeing around. I'd make it my job to manage them or calm down. Let them change everything for me. Yeah. Because it forced me to stop gaslighting myself. It forced me to stop living in the fantasy that this person is going to change just because I want them to and I need them to. And it made me recognize, wait a minute, for 40, like I've been given this person power forever because I allow their behavior and their personality to impact how I show up. Why don't I just let them be who they are? And let me focus on how I'm going to respond and let me walk into the situation with eyes wide open because when I see it coming, I'm not surprised. And let me constantly remind myself that I have power no matter what

because I have power over what I think about this. I have power over what I do and don't do. I have power over how I respond to my own emotions. And when I focus on the power that I have, I can leave the dinner table. I can leave the text chain. Yeah. I can leave the dinner at the date.

Like, I can leave any time I want. And so when you understand that if you want to continue a relationship with a person like this, or if you have to because you have kids with them, or you, they're your parent or your child, and it's a core value to be with family. The let them theory has helped me tremendously in drawing clear boundaries and actually being able to have the emotional maturity to apply the advice that the experts in this area tell you, whether that advice is act like a gray rock, because if you're boring, they don't attack you,

or don't respond to the venting because we all know they'll calm down if you don't respond don't play into the gossiping if they say something demeaning have a couple things ready are you trying to make me feel bad because when you walk in with eyes wide open and i and i think that for for years in this particular instance i just wanted this person to change i just wish the relationship was easier yeah you know i just And it was that hope that they were going to change that kept me in that dynamic. And it's not until I said, wait a minute, the only person that I have control over is myself. And the only way this relationship changes is if I change my part, my energy, and how I show up in it.

And that's where your power is. Right. And you have kids, you know, and is there a way or do you just do it the same way and is explaining this theory to children, let's say, they're dealing with something similar or, you know, anyone in their life, even if it's another kid that's like doing this kind of thing. Does it apply to them? And if so, how would you talk to them? It's a great question. So there's a couple things I want to say and then I'll answer your question. Yeah. So the Let Them Theory book is really a book about adult relationships. And the advice 1,000% is all about even, I would say, 16 on up. And the one big caveat, the one big caveat, I would say, though. And we address this in the back of the book, is that there are very

clear guidelines for you parenting kids and the fact that when you're the parent, you are the parent, you are the one that's driving the bus. You're responsible for their safety. You're responsible for their food, their shelter. You are responsible for teaching them that their emotions are valid. You're responsible for modeling what a mature emotional adult looks like. And what you don't get to control is who your kid is and what they're interested in and who they love and what they want to do with their life. And that's a very hard thing for parents to do. And so in order to help people really apply the let them theory, particularly with young kids, there is a unbelievable free resource in the back of the book that was written by this amazing expert,

world-renowned, his name is Dr. Stewart Ablon. He teaches at Harvard Medical School. He has been a practicing psychologist for children at Mass General Brigham, which is the number one research hospital in the world in Boston. And he has a program called Think Kids. And his philosophy is that whenever you're dealing with kids that are challenging, it's not a matter of will for them to thrive in school or thrive in relationships, it's usually a matter of skills that are missing. And one of the mistakes that parents make is that we step in because when our kids are really struggling, it freaks us out. I mean, I will step in front of a moving bus for my kids. Right. Yeah. And I think that's a natural human reaction. There's a real balance between knowing

when you need to let them with you by their side versus let me. Let me. Let me. me step in and solve this problem once and for all because my kid's safety is in danger. If you're dealing with safety, discrimination, any kind of abuse, any kind of bullying, any kind of mental health disorder, you step in. But for everything else, and this is all in the guide and this works with adults too, what you want to do is take a with them approach. See, the thing that we mistake about both kind of kids and also with adults is that if somebody's struggling. They know it. Yeah. You know, if you were to ask somebody in a classroom, who's the

hardest working student? It's not the kid getting A's. It's the one who's failing. Do you know how hard it is to sit in a classroom and be the one that's failing? Do you know how much you beat yourself up? Like, I choose to believe that every child, every adult wants to thrive. They want to to do well and they know when they're not. And when they're not, it's all you think about. And the same is true with health. The friend of yours that is working the hardest at their health is not the person at the gym every day. It's the person who's on the couch, who's struggling with their weight, who's not motivated. They're beating themselves all day long. That's a lot of work. And so what happens is we get concerned about people or we are worried or we think we know best. I used to do this with

my son. He was struggling in school. He has profound dyslexia. He didn't have a lot of a lot of friends. He was having a lot of trouble and I'd hear him playing the Xbox upstairs and I'd go marching upstairs and I'd throw up in the bedroom door and I'd be like, dude, you got to study. Like you got it, you're going to fail out here as if he doesn't know. And so I'm now, instead of motivating, I'm actually putting more pressure on him. And he's already putting so much pressure on himself. And so what Dr. Stewart Ablon says, the best approach with parenting is what he calls the with them approach. You walk in, you say to your kid, first you got to apologize. It must be a nightmare to have me on your case. I'm so sorry I've been nagging you. I'm so sorry that I'm on

your case. I'm pressuring you. I've never bothered to ask you, how do you feel about school? How do you feel about this situation with your friends? Right. Not telling you. Before you, call the mom and sound off. How do you feel? And then here's the, here's the $100 million question. Have you thought about what you might want to do about this? Of course they have. Of course they have. And so now you're making them an active participant in helping guide the solution. And here's a really other, like really important angle for parents that I got wrong over. and over and over and over again. When you step in and you solve the problem or you call the parents and start yelling or you go bark at the coach, whatever it is that you do because now you're agitated and so you're not going to, like you're going to step, let me just handle this.

A couple things happen. Number one, you're communicating to your kid. You're not capable of dealing with this, which creates more anxiety. You didn't even ask them if they felt comfortable with you doing it. So now you are signaling to them, I can't trust you because you might be making the problem worse by behaving like this parent. If you do the step, which is, have you thought about what you might want to do about it? I love that question. And then you go, how would you feel if I talk to the coach with you? Would you be comfortable if I call the parent of this person, or would you rather I not? And when you are with you. them, you are putting your arm around them and you're basically saying, I think you're capable

of figuring this out. I'm also interested in knowing what you'd like to do. And I'm asking for your opinion as to what you think would be the best way for me to support you through this. And look, there are going to be situations where you're dealing with an eating disorder or you're dealing with major mental health issues or you're dealing with situations where that, yeah, addiction, the person and a child in particular cannot be the one driving the bus on those decisions because that is about somebody's safety. That doesn't mean that they're ready to heal. It doesn't mean that they're ready to get better. It doesn't mean that they want to get better yet. but there are going to be times where you're going to do the with them approach and then you're

going to say, I get all that and in light of the circumstances, you know, this is really concerning to me. And so here's what we're going to do about it. Right. I have a question on that. So sure, I feel, so I grew up with all addicts, every single one of them, right? And it got to a point where I ended up getting sober myself. I had a sponsor walking me through some really hairy situations with family members, very dangerous. And I remember at one point she said to me, oh, this still, like when I think about it, it makes me so uncomfortable.

But she said, we walk over the sick and we walk over the dead in this program. And I was like, Jesus. What do you mean? Wait, what does that mean? Yeah. So what she meant was this is a family disease. and their disease will kill you if you let it. And so what she helped me really grasp was they have the dignity of their own experience.

You can do, like we would take them to the hospital. We would take them to the rehab. We would do all that. It wasn't working. And at a certain point, we had to get to the point where we had to grasp the reality that they have their own path. they have their own higher power, whatever that looks like. And at a certain point, we had to get to a let them approach where we've done everything we humanly possibly can do in our power, right?

Yes. And so my approach started to turn to how do I feel best letting my head hit the pillow? What do I feel comfortable with? What's in integrity for me? Yes. Beautiful. Is it to X, Y, or Z? And that's where I started to use my own internal compass of, it's no longer to get them to change. Because I've accepted, hold the door open for miracles. I believe in change wholeheartedly when someone wants it. It's available. When someone doesn't want it, I hold the door open for it. But I must maintain my sanity first, right? Yes. And so then the question became, every move came from what is in the highest good for my sanity. Because at a certain point, there's nothing I can do to help them. Well, I think it's, keep going. I'm sorry.

No, no. I'm curious what your thoughts are in that kind of circumstance. You just described the let them theory. Great. No, you did. You did in a beautiful way because, and I want to kind of unpack everything that you just shared. and then put it in the context of what every expert from neuroscience to a world-renowned addiction specialist that trained at Harvard Medical School and was at McLean Hospital, the number one research hospital for psychiatric medicine in the world, and now is online. His name is that he goes by the Healthy Gamer, Dr. Kay, over and over and over again. it is a very harsh message,

but what the expert said is exactly what you're saying, which is people don't get sober until being drunk is harder than doing the very difficult work to face the issues you're running from. And I'm going to say that again, people don't get sober until being drunk is harder. Right. than facing the issues you're scared to face. And it is an excruciating truth to accept that people only heal when they're ready to do the work

to heal for themselves. For themselves. They don't do it for their kids. They don't do it for you. It is the most impossible thing to wrap your brain around because you think that if you are in the same situation, doing it for your kids or your loved ones would be enough. But every single expert that I interviewed as we were doing the research on this, let them theory, just said this over and over and over.

And it is, as you know, an extraordinarily personal, daily decision that you make as the loved one watching this go down. Because you're going to be ready for somebody to heal or to, get better or to be healthier or to fight the eating disorder or to stop being in a very destructive pattern of being with people that are emotionally abusive. You're going to be ready before they're ready to do the work that they are capable of doing. And so when you say let them, you're not just throwing somebody out with the trash. No. You are recognizing, in your words, and I believe this to be true, the dignity of someone

else's experience. And what the standing in, the let them part means that you are also, when you say let them, let them walk out of rehab, let them stop therapy, let them go off their medication, let them go back to that person, let them. let them, let them, let them. Because I recognize that as much as I love this person and I would do anything for them, my job is as a supporting cast member, but they actually have to play the starring role

and they're not going to do that until they're ready to do it. And what a lot of people said, these are not my words, this comes from the research in the book. There is a certain amount of pain and struggle that people need to go through in order to activate the internal strength

and motivation to face what they need to face and to truly want to change. And that's just the reality. And so when you drive family members to rehab and they leave, when you provide housing and they steal stuff and buy drugs, when you say you can do this

and, you know, I'll stay with you unless I catch you drinking and they drink. You have no choice but to let them. And here's why. They've already done it. Right. They've already done it. Like, it's already happened. And every time you say let them, you're not allowing them to succumb to the addiction.

You're recognizing, again, the let them theory is about power and control. What is within your power and what is within your power and what is within your control. And someone else's healing is not within your power and it's not within your control. It's within their power and their control. What's in your power and your control are two things. It is providing the support that aligns with your values. That may mean paying for rehab. It may mean driving somebody there seven times. It might be providing housing. It might get to the point where it means supporting them means they spend a night in jail. Supporting them means they're homeless. Because you recognize they're not ready. And the second thing that you're doing is you're always

saying to yourself, I believe in your capability to have your own experience and to heal. Right. And I also know the truth that you will do it when you are ready. And when you are ready, the door is wide open. I am a phone call away. I am here to help pay or support or do whatever. Anytime you tell me you're ready. And the second part of the theory let me is how you calibrate every day and you had this beautiful thing. I focus on how I'm going to feel when I lay my head down on the pillow at night.

And for every human being in a very challenging situation with somebody that they care about who is struggling, how you answer that question, is personal, and it changes day to day. And there are going to be some days where laying your head down on the pillow means you provide housing even though they're using. There are going to be days where laying your head down in the pillow means you're trying to calm your nerves knowing that they're in jail. Right. There are going to be days where you lay your head down on that pillow and you're exhausted because you just drop them off at rehab. It is a daily, battle that you fight and the power comes in the let me part. Let me remind myself that their

healing is within their capacity and it is their own personal journey. And I am just a supporting cast member here. Let me remind myself that the focus is on providing an environment of support. It's not actually removing problems. The third one is, have I shown up in a way that aligns with my values, knowing what's in my control and what's not? And if you can do those things, despite how excruciating these situations are, I hope you can lay your head down on the pillow and wake up tomorrow and do it over again. You're so amazing. You know what you remind me of? You remind me of music.

So when you hear a good song, it could be the simplest feeling that we've all felt, right? We've all felt that feeling a million times. But for some reason, that person put it in a way you heard it. different. They took the same words. They had the same notes. But for some reason, the way they put it together hits in a way where you can hear things different, feel things different, connect. That's what you do in your work is you take these things that we've all, these human emotions, experiences that we've all faced in many ways. And you put it in a way where for some reason we can hear it different and hear it new for the first time.

Especially when you were talking about, in one of your podcasts, when you talk about the supercomputer of the brain and you were talking about your daughter and how she's just this highly capable human being spreadsheets, this, that, the other, and that you realize, oh, my God, she just has this super power brain.

And if it's not focused on something, it's going to be focused on fixing the problem with herself. that blew my mind. I was like, oh my God. So what did that mean to you? Everything. You know, it was, well, so how did it relate to you and unpack it? Because, you know, I tend to have, I, I'm the kind of person that has a brain that is like, imagine you had a box of a couple dozen mice and you tipped it over in a kitchen.

That's what my brain is. I relate. Right? Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and so to experience my daughter who wrote the Let Them Theory book with me and experience her brain in a way I never understood it worked.

It literally is, she's like a walking Excel spreadsheet. It made me realize that intellectual intensity around organization and firepower, and a lot of people have that, especially people who are a little bit quiet. she aims it at herself if she doesn't have something external to aim it at. And so a lot of people that organize a room all the time or have to have the perfect outfit or they're like obsessing over the way things, like that is the sign of a brain that needs a project. And when you heard that, what did that mean to you personally in terms of this aha moment, as Oprah would say? Yes. So it meant everything in the sense of there's certain things that I do that I have complete presence with, that I feel in flow, that I feel tapped into. I'm devoid of self-criticism or judgment. I'm present, right? It's almost like when you go on a vacation, your well-being doesn't go up because the place is beautiful. Your well-being goes up because you don't know, oh, there's a curb there. I have to cross this street. You have to use. You have to use. You your brain for something in order to get to your destination, which puts you in the present moment,

right? And so, so name a couple things that you do just for that help of the person watching or listening. Yeah. That helps you stay calm and in the present moment just naturally. So whenever I'm having conversations like this is one, I feel tapped into that place, doing theater, um, certain things. things when it comes to my children and the presence I have with my kids, when we're having

good conversations that light me up, when I'm doing anything that even if I want to like get a new house, I know that sounds ridiculous, but I love moving. Oh, no, everyone's a Zillow addict these days. A addict. Like searching online. Yeah, but then it becomes, well, how am I going to make that happen? What needs to move? What do I need to ship? Like when I have something on after. So those are a few examples of some of the ways I feel also I counsel people so when I'm doing that I feel so present because I'm in their field and I have a task which is you know to help facilitate in some way. So whenever I'm in that mode I'm free of those judgments. Beautiful. I think that's very helpful. Thank you for sharing that because it gives the person listening and watching us the

to really think about, oh, yeah, there are times in my life where I'm not beating the hell out of myself. Right. And when I'm not doing those things, I mean, my biggest crusade in life is my own voice, right? Is working with my own. What does that mean? It means taking any sort of form of self-criticism or judgment and really lending, nurturing instead, being kind to myself, being loving, working with my inner child, doing the things, really talking to myself the way I would to a loved one or to my child or to someone I deeply respect. And so that is a daily practice for me. Right? Beautiful.

But when you, the way you said it, it just became so clear that, oh, it's so simple. Like I said, it's like a good song. It just hits in the way of, oh, your brain wants something to do. Give it something constructive to do. You know, there's actually some really great research. And I want to credit Martha Beck. She just came out with this great new book all about creativity and anxiety. And the thesis of her book and the research that she writes about is that she had this thought that like when you're super anxious, right, where you've turned the self-talk against yourself because that's what anxiety is.

Like here's a reframe of anxiety that will change your life. It's changed my life. It's what I say to my adult kids. It's what I say to friends that are anxious or nervous about something. Anxiety is just a moment in life where you feel a little uncertain about something, and then you doubt your capacity to handle it. That's all that it is. That something's about to happen, or you're worried something's about to happen,

and you then go upstairs in your mind and you think about this thing that you're worried about, and you actually doubt your ability to handle it. That's why we get trapped up in our minds and we start going, well, what if this happens? And what if she says that? And what if he does this? And what if that? All of which separates you from your power. You have the power to actually get through just about anything.

You have the capacity to face any of the things that you're scared of and be okay. And one of the things that's helped me with anxiety and it's a way you can direct your mind is in those moments where you catch yourself, feel the flood of emotions, you then go upstairs in your mind and you start to go, uh-oh, uh-oh, uh-oh, what if this, what if that's, you're thinking about the text, you think, you're thinking about work tomorrow, you're thinking about what this person thinks about. You're thinking about some dumb thing happening online. Take a breath and just say, I'm capable of dealing with this. Like, no matter what happens, I'm actually capable of making it through this. I don't need to I don't know what's going to happen, but I don't need to doubt my ability to see myself through it.

Yeah. And when you start to remind yourself, and it's a way to give your mind a task, hey, wait a minute, I get that I don't know what's going to happen at work tomorrow. I get that I have no idea what's going to happen in this divorce proceeding. I get that I have no idea what's going to happen at that parent-teacher conference or when my kid walks into school and they have to see that person that bounced them from the friend group. like I start to worry about. Like, I am uncertain and I'm nervous about this

and I still believe in my ability to manage through this. I still believe in my ability that over time we're going to be okay. And when you can give your mind the task of recognizing, okay, there's uncertainty and then there's, what am I capable of? And the fact that you're still here and you're breathing and you're listening and watching this means, you've been capable of working through a lot of weird and scary and uncertain

and challenging situations in your life. And that means you have the capability of figuring this out. And once you start focusing your brain on your capability, you say, and what are some of the things that I've done in the past that helped me feel capable? Could I tell somebody? Could I go to chat GTP and put the thing in and ask, you know, what's the best advice for how to handle this situation like a pro? And you'll get a

formula. And so there's, so like literally any moment of anxiety or mind watering or rumination go, oh, wait, this is me doubting my capacity to do this. I need to double down on my capacity. Let me remind myself. I've gotten myself through things. It's going to be okay. Let them think what they're going to think. Let them misunderstand me. Let them not text me back. Let them like, do what they're doing and let me remind myself, I'm capable, and so are my kids, of working through this issue together. I'm not going to have to do this alone. I am capable of asking for help. And yes, it's scary, and yes, it's uncertain, and yes, I don't deserve this. And I'm still capable. And that's done a lot for me to interrupt that habit of separating from your power and just getting

trapped up in your mind and running a bazillion scenarios. And so, you know, I offer that up because it's a way to use what you're talking about to train your brain not to get stuck in what's not working or what you're scared of, but to focus on the truth, which is you are capable of working through things that are challenging, whether it's a breakup or grief or the end of a relationship or something that is scary. going on with your kids. Yeah. It's interesting because I think about this a lot. Like the older you get, the more shit you've been through, right? And like, typically, yes. Typically, some people are so lucky. Yeah, that's exactly though. But it's all mistakes. That's why. We all make them. And

there's so many times. And I did, I had a therapist that would always say, but you keep showing up in the ring, you know, every time. And I go to that all the time because I'm like, yeah, things have been so hard and so painful, but you survive. And it's exactly what you're saying. And the fact that she puts it, of course, I picture myself in like a gladiator ring. And I don't know why it has to be so violent, but I keep showing up in it. That's interesting. I know. That's where my visual goes. I mean, people could be in a boxing ring. Whatever ring. I saw a boxing ring. Oh, I go gladiator. Maybe it's the men's outfits. I don't know. But like, I just think it's so cool to hear the capability that everyone does have and we go through so much and you know the hardest thing for me has been

being brought back into like the PTSD of things and like the muscle memory and like all of that but working through it and it always goes back well it's interesting that you say that because the second you said the gladiator ring I wondered if that was I don't know I don't like I don't have any gotcha questions I don't actually even know anything that you're dealing with because I just am not the kind of person that engages in that nonsense and chatter. Yeah. But when you said Gladiator Ring, I wondered if the reason why the arena that you envision is big and requires weapons and I'm in for the fight and I got a brace is because of the

nature of your career, you are subjected to so much, I would imagine, public opinion and rumors and bullshit and gossip online. It's like I'm brand new to this. You know, it's amazing. I've been in the top 20 podcasts in the world for two years and nobody gave a shit. The second I unced Joe Rogan, it's like, where did all these trolls come? Oh, the trolls. Oh, my God.

What is all this negativity? Like, why are people making up rumors about me and telling all these lies? Like, this is ridiculous. And then you're like, all you want to do is eviscerate people. Right. Because I'm also a lawyer, so I'm like, you don't get to fucking say this shit. This is illegal. Like, these are fucking lies.

And you're saying it in public? What? And then I'm like, wait a minute. Let them mouth. It's hard. It's incredibly difficult because naturally, if you're human, if somebody attacks you or, you know, they are saying things that are untrue about you, all you want to do is defend yourself or your family or your team or what you're doing.

But then, you know, for me, it's like any other gossip or lies or rumor, whether it's a gossip happening at your school or untrue lies that people are telling about you in your family or your friend group. Like the reason why people do this, let's look at the psychology of this. I actually write about this in the Let Them Theory book, which is people who tell lies and spread untrue rumors, they do it for a reason. they want to feel better about themselves and they do it by tearing other people down. And one of the reasons why it's critical to not respond directly to it is because of the psychology of the human brain. Once somebody is already gossiping about you, once they're already trying to tear you down and tell lies, anything that you say, even when it's the truth, the psychology of the brain is such that if somebody has an opinion, even if it's a lie,

and then you present a second, you're like, well, that's actually not the truth, and here's like 73 pieces of evidence to bury your ass. The neuroscience is clear. That person's brain, who believes the opposite, actually the listening part turns off. Wow. You're literally shouting into thin air. Right. And so it's a complete waste of time and energy.

And, you know, I'm actually going through this right now. It's my first experience ever with just having tons of bullshit out there. And, of course, your kids see it. And then your friends see it. And then everybody starts bringing it to your, and you're like, that is, they're saying, what? What? Give me a break. And then there's stuff that you're like, excuse me?

Right. They're saying what? And so the restraint that it takes to say let them. and to recognize that's not where your peril is. And I understand there are certain instances, especially when it relates to your children, where you say something. Right. Right.

But the let me part is, you know, the way that I've been using it is to basically say, let me, like, remind myself that I know what's true. Right. And let me tell close supporters and friends what's going on so that I get the, you know, support and the affirmation, and I don't start gaslighting myself, because there's one thing you can't control. It's what other people are going to say and their opinions and their

expectations and the lies that they're going to spread about you. Let them. Yeah. Yeah, you can't control what strangers on the internet say. You can't control what your relatives might gossip about. Let them. And double down on who you are and fucking prove them wrong. Yes. That's what you do. There you go. But you made me realize like, I'm like, oh, I've been doing the let them theory. Because like with her, even when we started this and people would troll or say things, I'm always like, eh, like let them basically. Yeah, totally. Like just ignore it. Doesn't matter.

It's not. You can't give it any attention because I've been, you know, in it for 20 some years. And, you know, you just kind of just like, it means nothing. Like, just let them. And you can walk away from it. And I'll tell you, it's easier said than done. Big time. Sure.

And I'm going to kind of extrapolate this out more. And we're going to go back to why. you feel when you think about it that it's like an arena when you are bracing. Because if you have a kid, let's take an example of a kid. So I am going to tell a story of a friend of mine without disclosing any information. She had a situation where her kid was in a spelling bee. And as the child was in the spelling bee, she's spelling out her words to herself. quietly, right, before she's saying it. And the freaking parents accuse this child of cheating and accuse the mother of like somehow signaling that none of which was happening. And when you have a

situation like that where you have to walk into a school where you know there are rumors that you cheated or that you're a slut or you've been bounced from a friend group, it is extraordinarily challenging to let those lies play out. It is one of the hardest things in your life that you will do. And understanding that the power is not in defending yourself to people who don't care to know the truth is a hard thing to embrace because that's all you want to do. But the best thing that you could do is to focus on what's in your control, which is you know the truth and there are people that believe you. And there are people that support you. And those are the people that you now want to pour all your time and energy into. Because the fact that they support you and that they're not

gossiping and that they're defending you, that's what tells you those are your people. And that's who you want to spend your time and energy with. And so if it's happening to you, understand that it is, you know, it comes with the territory when you put yourself out there online like I do. And it's even still difficult for me because I'm human. You are. But understanding that there is zero impact that it's going to make and in changing people's minds. And at some point, you speak up, you address it, whatever, you move on, it becomes more of a thing, and then it fades away. But if you never choose to address something, that's probably the better move because you should conserve the time and energy as hard as it is and just really narrow your focus on the people who believe you,

who love you, and who support you. And that's how you get through these things. Yeah. I do this little thing where I've gone through it for the first time doing this podcast where people will say really mean things. And it was really affecting me and making me feel like, oh, maybe this isn't for me. And then what I started to do, I read recently like your self-talk, you have more power of changing the way you feel sounds a little out there if you speak internally to yourself in the third person. That's true.

It's great research around that. Yeah, I'd never heard that. Will you explain to the person listening what that means in the third person? I always get those things mixed up. Yeah. So internally, let's say I read a negative comment like, let's say Olivia's a bad person. Let's just say that. Internally, instead of saying, am I? And identifying with the I am of that, instead of saying, am I a bad person, you would say internally, is Olivia really a bad person?

And then what I do is I say, if I gave this information to the people that actually know me, would anyone agree? Mm-hmm. And the answer's zero. Right? Zero. People would agree with this information. Why am I basing the way I feel on people who don't actually know me? If I took that information and gave it to people that know me, they would go, that's hilarious. Or that's egregious or whatever it is. But using that little slight shift of the third person actually helps you move into the witness seat of it instead of making you self-identifying tethers. Yeah. And, you know, I want to validate the experience because when you find out people are spreading untrue rumors about you, or strangers are tearing you down online, or people are being passive aggressive on your social media posts, and it can happen to anybody. Yeah. Because we live in a world where people are just allowed to say whatever the hell they want online, and there's no repercussion, which I 1,000 percent disagree with. But the reason why it hurts is because it's actually an attack. Like when somebody criticizes you, especially when you don't know them, it is somebody attacking you.

And so psychologically, it's actually a sign that you're mentally well, that it's like, ooh, yeah, because they are attacking you. And so it tells me that you're mentally well, that you read something like that and it bothers you. you, but what you've done that I want to, like, really pat you on the back for is you recognize that even though that response to criticism is normal, that there are tools that you can use and you just explain them beautifully to step out of the emotion and to direct your brain using the third person, Mel, is that actually true? Yeah. Mel, you know you didn't do that.

Mel, would anybody that actually knows you believe this horse shit? Of course not. It's why people are defending you online. Like, I just like, like, no. And so, you know, when you know the truth, and I love the third person thing, Mel, you know this isn't true. It just allows you to step out of the emotion, which is normal. It doesn't mean you're weak.

It means you're human. And using let them, the way the theory helps is you say to you, yourself, let them. Let strangers say what they're going to say. Let people who I thought were my friends reveal that they actually aren't because they're gossiping about me. Let people who are jealous of my success spread lies because they want to try to ride my coattails. Let them. I recognize what's happening and I refuse to play into it. Now comes the let me part, which is you just said this beautifully. Let me use the third person. Mel, is any of this shit, of course not. Stupid.

Mel, are you going to waste time and energy? No, it's stupid. Mel, you know the truth. So just double down on that and surround yourself with people that support you and move on. And that's the formula. And again, it comes back to what we've been talking about, which is really just about what's in your control and not and where is your power and hold on to it so you don't give it away by trying to control the wrong thing. And when you do that, you find more peace, you find more power in your life. And that's, I think, why, and you know, one of the things that I think is so cool about everything that is happening and why this book has struck such a chord is we live in a moment in time where every single one of us is overwhelmed and stressed out. Every single

one of us has somebody in our life that we're worried about. Every single one of us is trying to just make it through the day and be a little happier and take care of ourselves. And we are bombarded with things that stress us out and imagery online and headlines that make us feel completely out of control. And the reason why this book is exploding and the Let Them Theory is just everywhere is because this is the exact moment in time that we all need a simple tool to help us in those moments where we're stressed or threatened or frustrated or scared to separate ourselves from the world outside and reconnect with the power that we have inside ourselves to choose how we're going to respond to it because that's where our power is. And what I love about this simple

let them let me is that it is so familiar to everybody because it taps into Buddhism, radical acceptance. If you love the serenity prayer. I was just going to say it's the serenity prayer broken down. It's exactly that. Yes. And a lot of people are writing in and saying, you know, oh my gosh, my dad used to say this thing that reminds me of this or, you know, my mom or I heard there. Somebody just sent me a sermon from Pastor T.D. Jakes, who ironically, his daughter is one of the, you know, 50 plus experts that were part of my research. She's quoted in the book. But there's a ceremony gave 20 years ago, let them walk. And it's just evidence that this is exploded, not because it's new, but because it's everywhere and it's universal and it's reminding you of what you know

to be true. And it's just helping you access that at a moment in history that is, I think, overwhelming and stressful for all of us. Yeah, absolutely. My goodness. Yeah. Well done on the timing. Oh really? Are we on time? Oh. I can't see anything. I like see I can't. The iPad is a little far away. No, I meant the timing, but I'm basically blind. The book. The theory. Oh, the timing. No, but the timing of this as well, because I think we are right on the market. The timing is divine. There is, there is no doubt in my mind that this is part of something so much bigger. This is not about me. It's not even about this book. It's about, I think, the forces of popular. positive change that we all need in our life and the reminders of what's actually meaningful and important in life and relationships that a lot of us have forgotten and gotten away from. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. And couldn't thank you enough for sharing with us

today and everything you're doing and being here. It means so much. You're incredible. Thank you. Well, thank you. Well, I'm not letting, we're not ending this until we talk about the arena. Please, please. Yeah. So, so I want to go back to the arena because it's striking of the scale of it. And you mentioned kind of the post-traumatic stress. And are, is there a connection between the barrage of public opinion that you've experienced in your life and the way that you perceive? anything that starts to go wrong in your life now. It's so interesting that you kind of tapped into that automatically with the arena and everything else. And yes, I think absolutely it has something to do with that because it has felt kind of like a stage personal things playing out to a certain degree. And I also think the things that have played out have been so fucked up. It's like I'm in an arena with weapons and

like defending myself and, you know, like that intent. or the feelings have been that intense. And so I think it's so incredible that you just came out with that because I had never even thought of that. I thought everyone was picturing Gladiator. I pictured a boxing. Yeah. Well, here's what I want to offer to you.

Yeah. Because, you know, based on, I don't know what you're dealing with or what you're referring to when you say fucked up. And I'm telling you that because I think it's always important to be reminded that 99% of the world has no idea what's going on in your life. and when you are in a situation where you're being bullied at school or you have something playing out in a public way in your family or your community or online like you do and I do, it can feel like the whole world knows. And so I think it's important to be reminded nobody knows and nobody cares even though it feels like the spotlight is on you. So that's number one.

Number two, recognizing that the response of the arena and everything feeling big and weapons and fighting these big people and, oh, my God, and people watching, like, that's a valid lived experience for you. And I would lean into that if you're in therapy to really understand the past experiences that validate why all things that, like, you're. aren't working feel like that, even the change in somebody's mood, okay, or expectations that aren't being met. Third thing I want to say about that is that this is something I've been working on recently with my therapist, and it's helped a lot. And you're envisioning

yourself alone in that arena. You are not. There are other gladiators that drive. in to fight with you. And you need to call them forth. And you need to keep reminding yourself that I am not alone in this arena. I actually have these people that drop in to fight with me. And I'm saying this because a big theme for me in really just, meeting the moment of this in my life and also softening a bit because I've like a lot of people, dukes up, swords up, going to army crawl my way out of this dead. I'm going to figure it all out.

I'm going to look around every corner. Is this sort of lie that you tell yourself that you are on your own? And the reason why we do that is because in those moments in the past, you did feel like you were on your own. People didn't protect you. And recognize that this is as much an issue of a very lived experience that you can dial down to a boxing ring and you have resources and people dropping into fight with you, whether it's your friends or your team members, your family members or your kids or your therapist

or people that represent you in business, like you have other gladiators. But the thing that I want you to really think about is are you even asking people to protect you? Because I do not. I take it on and think I'm supposed to do this myself. And when you say to yourself, no, no, no, no, you can have protection. You can ask people to fly out in front and fight ahead of you.

And understanding that that's something that's been missing for you and learning how to put the gates up so that people can't storm you, that's been a huge thing for me is actually being proactive in recognizing that there's a level of proactive protection. And I'm not talking like bodyguards and that bullshit. I just mean the way people can show up for you can feel like protections so that you're not alone, but you got to recognize that it feels good to have it and that you deserve to ask for it. Does that help or resonate at all?

That helps massively. That was amazing. Even... I'm going to use that all the time on her. I'm just going to go, zoom, zoom, zoom. No, the visual alone. I just pictured it automatically. I had the people there with, like, their shields, like, ready to fucking fight. Yeah. But it's true. Yeah. And they go first. Yeah. Great. Because we want to, you know? Like, the people on your team, they do, they're like, let me. Right. I'm down. I can relate. Yeah. opposite. Absolutely.

Yeah. I love that. We've all had those girlfriends, too, where you're like, hoops back. Yes. Get the hair. Whole of here. You know? Yes.

That's right. That's right. So helpful. Absolutely. You're brilliant. Yeah. You're beautiful, fantastic, inspiring. Unleavable.

Thank you. All 200 billion downloads. Well, thank you. And as we said in the beginning, we're all just getting started. Yes. There you go. love it taking that message awesome mel thank you so much congratulations on everything you congratulations unreal so cool thank you and i'll continue to quote you daily i really appreciate you having me on

thank you for the support and know that if you ever need anything i'm one of those gladiators in a ring we love that that is a secret weapon not against you for you yep that's right exactly amazing you got more of us than you realize all right you too thanks thanks for everything thank you so much I feel smarter. That changed the course of the podcast, I feel like. She left and we were like, oh my God. The three of us just sat here for like 15 minutes after and we're like, well, our lives have changed.

Yeah. That was awesome. I came to realize that I'm picturing myself fighting to the death every day in a gladiator arena where everyone else is in a boxing ring. That was my big takeaway. That was really cool. I also, she was very inspiring because she's so. such a good listener.

Yeah. Which is just a, it's a silly thing to say about someone, but then watching her just like ask the perfect questions. I mean, she's been doing it for years, but it was really fun watching both of you finish a sentence. And then her ask a question that I was like, damn, that was a really good question. I agree. Where sometimes I'm guilty of this. I'll ask something just completely unrelated because I don't know what to say.

You can just tell she was locked in unlike both of the whole time. She was really listening. Even how she circled back at the end. Totally. Wait, we're not getting off until we talk about the arena. Yep. Right. Yeah.

You know? Like she's fully present. Yeah. Which is crazy. I love let them too. I mean, I've already been using it. Let's hear an example. I mean, just like friends making decisions that frustrate me.

My wife and I were talking about it. Oh, maybe we should say this. Maybe we should say. I'm like, no. Let's just let them do their thing. I don't want, we don't need to like engage with it. And so just feeling the urge to like get involved in stuff and then kind of knowing deep down like they're going to do whatever they want. There's no point in us trying to get involved.

And then just being like, all right, let's just let them do their thing and we'll do ours, you know. Right. I feel like she I feel like she also clarified something for me that the internet isn't pumping out, which I feel like the internet really took the let them. but what she clarified in this episode was kind of using it as the serenity prayer, which is, she's like, yes, let them and let me, X, Y, Z. So that to me gave a real clarity on your personal sense of responsibility of like when you let them, it's not just letting them and then just see ya, it's and let me blah, blah, blah. Which I think was a really important clarification and great tool. Yeah. Right?

Right? Let me answer you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it really, like, we all kind of were like, why are we not talking to experts all the time? Yeah. We're comedians. And in hand.

So we're going to. That is what our goal is. Yeah. We said the new motto of the show going forward is. You're going to laugh or you're going to learn. Right. I love that. And that's it.

Yeah, it's great. There's nothing in between. There's nothing more important in life than laughing or learning. Yeah, 100%. What else is there? Maybe going to the bathroom. It's kind of important in life. Well, you know what the great thing is you can go to the bathroom and laugh and learn all at the same time.

You can. A true multitask. Do you guys know that? I haven't gone to the bathroom and privacy for so. Oh, I did not. No. No, no, no, no. I'm just saying, like, even if I have to pee, there's always someone coming in the door.

A boy. Yeah. She's the only girl in her house. That's tough. It is tough. Four other boys. And then I'll be peeing and my son will walk in and be like, hey, yo. And I'm like, you walked in on me.

It's annoying. That's tough. You don't lock the doors? It's like I don't even It feels offensive Do you close your door When you pee with your wife in the house?

Yeah You do when you pee Mm-hmm, yeah That's so fascinating Yeah She closes the door when she pees Yeah And you do too

Mm-hmm Huh I'm baffled Sometimes I even do it Like when no one's home It's just like a muscle memory now too I never shut the door But you know it was hard

Was like I would say 90 90% 90% of the time, I'll close it. But I was working from home so much that when we started recording here, I would go to the bathroom and then go like, I didn't lock the door. Wow. Yeah. So.

You lock the door even when you pee? Not at home, but when. Here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I'm not used to locking the door, now I have to like remind myself in public places like, yes, you're not at home. You have to lock the door. So you're going to horrify somebody.

Huh. It's different for me. It's just me and my daughter and I. Yeah. We don't close doors. We don't close doors with friends either. No. Wow. Never. We always, and we're like, we go to the bathroom together all the time. Yeah.

Not at the same time. But sometimes. I mean, there's probably been times where we've all occupied different. different areas of the bathroom. Sure. You know? For sure. Can we talk about what you were saying before we started recording?

About how you were completely, like, everything you knew about love and marriage. Was a complete lie. Okay. To clarify. Did you go to married with children in your mind when I said love and marriage? Yeah. Yeah. Always.

Any chance I get to go to love and, I mean, to, go to I'm married with children I do. Growing up, this is the narrative

to girls. When you grow up, like, oh, the guys are always going to be one

to be with their guys. They're going to watch sports and you have to like fight for their attention and,

you know, you're, you're never going to get them. They always want to be with their friends.

Not. True. At all. Like, I think it's the opposite. You said Jeff's peering through the hinges. Well, he's working from home right now, and I just see him looking at me through the hinges of the doorways. And now he does it just to mess

with me. So no matter what, even if I'm like in the kitchen, through the pantry, I'll just see him glaring through the hinges. Yeah, I think it was all a lie. What do you think, Kevin? Yeah. I mean, I'm a year into marriage right now, and so far it's been good, but maybe we're still in the honeymoon phase. No, ours is great. We have a good marriage. I just mean, like, do you have, like, nights with your guys and going to Vegas with the boys and going to watch sports? And she's like, why can't I go? You know, we all, we kind of have, like, mixed friend groups now where she, like, the friends that are, like, quote unquote, my friends, we, like, our partners, like, we, like, we. did a hangout last weekend and then she was like I was like do you want to come and she was like if it's cool with you and then same thing with like the friends that are like you know like her friends same thing she's like do you want to come and so we kind of often end up inviting each other to and it's

it's not like six friends in my wife like six dudes in my wife it's kind of like a mixed group of people and then same with but I will ask like who all is going because if it's ladies night I don't want to do like ladies night and Kevin's here. Right. Yeah. I think we're kind of, maybe we're in a unique situation because we have a lot of mutual friends. So like when we get invited to stuff,

it's kind of like both of us are getting invited. No, I feel like that's more normal. Yeah. That's what I mean. There was a lie set up that it's like guys just want to be with their friends without their girl. I've never experienced that.

I don't really think that's true. Mm-hmm. I've never been, I've never felt like, oh, I want to go and he doesn't want me to go. No, yeah. Like, that's never happened. In any of your dating life, boyfriend? When I was a teenager, oh, my God, every day.

Yeah. I was like, why can't I go? Yeah. But that's because they were shady. Shady. Shady. Yeah. Yeah. My parents have almost the opposite thing where, like, my dad has all the guy friends,

my mom has your girlfriend's, and my mom does not want to go hang out with my dad's friends and vice versa, where it's like, we're all going to the baseball game. mom's like, have fun. Right. Yeah. I don't want to spend six hours at that. And then same thing where it's like, we're all going out to lunch. My dad's like, tell them I say hi.

But has it always been that way? Kind of, yeah. They will do things, mutual things together. But they have a very clear, like, you know, dad's hanging out with the dudes and then my mom's hanging out with the ladies. And it's kind of always been a like, for as long as I could remember, like a pretty clear divide of who's hanging out with who. Hmm.

But I think it's like they would drive each other crazy if they were doing all their activities together. I think part of what helps their marriage is that that sort of like you go do your thing. I'm going to do my thing. We'll meet up after. I've been watching a lot of I Love Lucy with my daughter. Nice. Which is the best. But, you know, in those days, like, they each had a twin bed.

Isn't that wild? You know? Yeah. And I'm like, that sounds great. Oh, totally. Well, that was just for T. TV purposes. No. Yeah, it was illegal to put one bed on television. Oh, is that right? Yeah. But a lot of people in that era did have two twin beds. I don't think so. It was just portrayed that way on television because they

couldn't put them in the same bed on TV. It was like a law. What? Yeah. My mind was my whole life. My whole life I believed in the 50s, people just slept in two twin beds. I don't believe that. Oh, I don't think. No, it was like a huge thing when like, I forgot what show it was. But like a couple slept in the same bed together and it was like, I can't believe they're showing. What? Yes. It was like a good guy. But did people actually not do that in real life?

Was it not a thing? They slept in together. I think I slept in the same bed. When I found that up, my mind exploded. No. Like I 100% was like that's what they did in the 50s. You slept in separate beds. Did you also think in the 50s it was black and white?

What? You know what? one of the things that freaked me out as I got older, this is going to sound a little strange and ridiculous. But you know, when you were a kid and you pictured yourself getting older, a lot of times it was based on movies or shows of what you've seen. Once I got here, I realized there was no music. Where's my soundtrack? Where's my soundtrack? What would your soundtrack be? It would be different for everything I experienced. But like when you pictured yourself growing up, Like, there was always music to any big change in life in movies and television shows.

And then when I got to those moments, I realized there was no music. And it didn't hit the same way. Yeah. And it's slightly depressing. Would you do this growing up? What? Like driving if you're in the back seat and you look out and there was a big field, you would picture yourself horseback riding? No, I thought you.

you were going to say, did you look out the window pretending you were in a music video? Yeah, that, of course, that too. But no, you never, like, just pictured yourself like galloping if there was, like, a huge field. Not one. Kevin? No.

I think I thought of myself on, like, skateboards and snowboards and stuff. I did not think of myself on horseback, unfortunately. With all that space, though, you don't just picture yourself. No, I didn't. I would picture... So this is as big of an epiphany as the arena versus the boxing ring. Yeah, I never did picture that.

I would picture, like, you know, how the mountains were? I'd always picture, like, they were going to move, and a head was going to come up, and it was going to be, like, a dinosaur laying down. Whoa. Well, because of the way they look, they look like dinosaurs laying down, and that they would just, like, get up. Never did that. So that, that I would do.

But would you make your own, like, movie in the car to music? A music video, of course. Yeah, 100%. Me too. every time. Every time. Do guys do that? Probably.

Did you? I don't think so. And as a music guy, I'm surprised that I didn't. I guess I fantasized about like playing drums or being the lead singer and like a cool band like performance probably. I didn't really think too much about like music video stuff, which is surprising because like total TRL and like all of those shows were like such a big part of. of like my after school experience, but I'm surprised I didn't think more about the fantasy stuff. Okay, I was quiet because I was looking at the first time a couple on television shared the same bed. Do you want to guess the year? I was shocked. Really? Why, it's like the Cosby show or something?

The opposite way. On Tuesday, why did I say Tuesday? On Tuesday, November 18th, 1947. Whoa. What? I assumed it was like the late 60s. Yeah. See, now I'm confused. Yeah, I'm watching. My TV brain is all turned around, I guess. Can you find out?

The show's called Mary Kay and Johnny. Huh. I never even heard of it. No. Can you find out if people actually slept in twin beds or was just... That's what I really went now. Was that just for the purpose of television? I'm like, oh, and that sounds great.

I know a twin bed's small, but like, whatever. Well, I remember thinking the same thing and then someone telling me no no no that was just because it wasn't allowed on TV and I was like TV what do you say TV TV you say TV how do you say Valcerf okay how do you say milk I don't say milk I say pillow hello Olivia we've done this I know but my brother says pillow and what yeah he says he's like when my head is eyes ease I don't know I'm I'm seeing kind of mixed results. I'm seeing like people did sleep in twin beds.

And then I'm seeing the decline of twin beds in the 60s and 70s. So maybe people did sleep separately. I think they did. And then in the 60s and 70s, they started sleeping together. I think, I think it was an actual thing. Hmm. I like it. I'm going to get my research team on this.

Yeah. Let's see how this goes. Would you say your researcher? Your chat GPT? Oh, who's this? Hey, can I call you right back? Can I ask you a really quick question? I'm sorry.

Sure, sure, sure. You're on Broad Idea as a fantastic podcast. Did couple... This is my mom. I listen to it. I love it. Oh, my mom loves it. You're actually at the end of the Mel Robbins episode, who my mom loves.

I love her, too. Did couples sleep together? And I know you're... I know you didn't grow up in the 50s. Did couples in the 50s and 60s sleep together or in separate beds? We're trying to figure it out. What do you think? My parents.

Yeah. So my siblings were born in the 50s and 60s. We're always in the same bed. Your parents were in the same bed? Grandma and grandpa? Okay. Did that seem like a common thing? I think so.

Yeah. I think so. Now, dad's grandparents, so, you know, you're great, I guess, great-grandparents. they did not. Interesting. Probably more, maybe more, because they were older, too. My parents were younger than that. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. So depending on what age you were in the 40s and 50s is whether you were sleeping together in the same bed or not. Very interesting. Okay. You're the best mom. Thank you. Thank you.

Love you. Bye. Aw. She sounds amazing. She's the best. You can tell. Yeah, you can tell. I love it.

And she's just like, can I call her back? Okay, no, go ahead. Midwest niceness. I love it. So sweet. Should we talk about the fact that you guys are wearing matching pants? We did a really fun photo shoot today before this recording for some new album art that's coming out. How did you feel about our inspiration, Kevin?

You crushed it. And the photographer was super happy. Really? Because sometimes people just come in and are like, okay, I'm ready for the pictures. And you both came in like, okay, how about this? How about this? We got outfit changes and props and stuff. And she told me separately.

She was like, this is a blast. Aw. Yeah, it was great. She was rad. Liz, yeah, she's awesome. Awesome. She was awesome. She was awesome.

And she seemed to enjoy what was being delivered. Yeah, I think so. So that will be coming soon. You'll see new cool album art. Yeah. I'm excited. We should make an album. We should make an album.

Wow. But I'll just be silent. See, we can be in the music video. Yeah, there we go. Yeah. Play the drums. Yeah. And I'll be riding horse.

Guys. This has been a blast. Yeah. Mel Robbins, amazing, I mean. One of my favorite all time. I've truly been thinking about it.

Yeah. We recorded it last week, and I've been thinking about it, like, pretty consistently since the recording. Yeah, it was awesome. It was awesome. That let them really does seep into your consciousness in a way where you can really,

It's so simple. Detach with love and give people permission to do what they want to do. Yeah. Honestly. No, but yeah. Just that's all you have to say. It's such an easy mantra. Yeah.

Thank you, Mel. And remembering the let me part. Right. Also important. Very important. I love it. Right. We love it.

See y'all in the gladiator ring. Wooosh. That was a headgum podcast.