Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Melinda Clarke on The O.C., Divorce, and the Dalai Lama

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Melinda Clarke [Days of Our Lives, The O.C., CSI: Crime Scene Investigation] talks with Olivia and Rachel about The O.C. and Welcome to the OC, bitches!, her divorce, and self-growth. The three also discuss parenting, overcoming trauma, and eye-contact during sex. Broad Ideas is supported by Quince. Right now, go to Quince.com/ideas to get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yellow, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, hear stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast on HBO Max, or, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, guys. Hi, Rachel. I'm so happy to hear both of your voices.

Also, so happy, my beloved, Mindy Clark, Melinda Clark, aka Julie Cooper. Really, really looking forward to talking to her just in a conversation and not about only the OC specifically. She was also on Nikita, amongst many other projects.

She is just one of my favorite, people and really my family. So, much welcome, Mindy. Sometimes when the way inside of Rachel's little brain, all these thoughts are swirling, round and round inside to join us on this journey as we take a little ride. We'll talk about dogs and kids and things. We'll talk about chicks and tampon strings. about boys that are neat. Because people die. This is like out of body experience because this is like Rachel's world.

Oh. No, just because I'm used to as I'm driving here and it was like, wow, this is just a new experience for me because I'm usually like, especially the last few months, Rachel. We've been like doing three and four podcasts a day or a week. Yeah. And we were trying to. So there's a lot of like focus and like I don't have a child running around so I don't know how you do it. But there's a lot of preparation that I felt felt had to go into the podcast. So this is a debrief, I think. Like how do you think it went, Rach, we're done. I know. I know. So that's what I wanted to say. Like we've finished our last episode of Welcome to the OC bitches. And it was quite the experience. Yeah. Wouldn't you say? Yeah. I mean so from the beginning. So I have to ask you. So from the beginning, And oh, can I just stop for a second? Yeah.

Olivia, it's so exciting to see you because, because, I mean, it was one of those things like we went through this whole podcast and you were there too. Yeah. During the O'C. And we had Leah on and I was like, as we were coming, I'm like, why didn't Olivia come on too? Yeah. So, okay, this is, okay, we're talking. Okay, I'm taking over.

Yeah. This is your podcast. She's a professional podcast. I know. Well, I'm not used to talking about myself, so I'm turning it back on you. I see what you're doing. But no, I'm just super fascinated. Like I had those questions too.

I wanted to ask Olivia what it was like for her. And then I wanted to ask my partner, like how this experience was for her. You said you did prepare. She did. She prepared. She's going to help it. She's like, I know what I can ask. Which is funny because Rachel and I are the same.

So Rob will be like, you need to prepare this, that, and the other. And we're like, oh, no, no, we do better if we don't. We just wing it. Like, we like to not know what we're going to ask because we like to be. just in it, and that's how we both work the same, which we could use you. Can you direct us? I know what? I think there was such a, I'll never, you'll never know, Rachel, like how much that experience, because I'm in a place in my life where everything is a life lesson. I'm not trying to apply negative or positive to anything because everything is neutral in the world. I mean,

obviously some things are, you know, that's debatable. Right. But it's our own interpretation and our own brains and our own narratives that make something positive or negative. And so when, when, and it's a practice, right? positivity, happiness, all those things are constant, vigilant practices, especially when I spent like a decade of being incredibly negative. But so doing that podcast, it was like, we were just kind of thrown to the wolves because

office ladies and scrubs and there were. a few of these podcasts that were quite popular. And we had no formula or structure to it. So, for lack of a better term, we were rehearsing on camera. And Rachel and I hadn't spent much time together. So we were trying to create chemistry over remote. And, you know, the first conversation, if I go back now, the one with Peter. Peter, Gallagher. That was pretty, like, what we were just catching up, like old friends is basically what the first episode turned out. to be, which wasn't, I don't think a bad thing. Like, I think, I think what I struggled with was having to stick to the actual formula of the episode and breaking it down and where I like, let's just

have a conversation, you know, and I think we found our balance and we were able to do both. And we got to like reconnect with so many people, which was, I think, the best part. Well, and I think that's, so yes, looking back, like I said, my narrative isn't that it was good or bad. It was literally just like what did I learn from the experience? And so I, because I'm used to scripted dialogue and I'm used to perfection, which I've had to work on, because guess what? I'm a fabulously flawed human being. And I love it. And I love myself, right? Progress, man, not perfection. But I just found myself sometimes opening my mouth and going, and I wouldn't like, I stutter or I didn't know what to say or I was speaking to non sequiturs. Like all the things that you think could

go wrong in a podcast did. And guess what? It's okay. Right. Yeah, it is. Right. Who fucking care. Right.

Like all those things that you realize are just innate in our own personalities of anything that makes us feel uncomfortable or risky or new is, well, why? Because I fear people saying things about me, commenting, being critical, being judgmental. And all of that stuff came true, but who cares? Right. And it's also experiential. You can't learn something. You can't prepare yourself into something like this.

Right. So you can do all the prep work ahead of time and then someone's going to ask a question or bring something up. And really all that's required of you is to be there. Right. Right. And I don't think that any of our lessons come in our comfort zone. No, no. Right?

From pain comes that real growth. Right. And it was, there were times Adam will tell you, there was a couple times in the beginning where he was like, there were tears. Adam's her husband. Oh, okay. Adam's like husband. And just because it was, you know, Rachel and I hadn't done it before.

We knew we were going to do a pot. So I had, you know, I listened to the office ladies and they break down a 22-minute episode and they'll talk about it for two hours. And they'll talk about it moment by moment. And both of us are like, well, we weren't there for every scene. So how do we, I can remember my experiences a little bit. Rachel didn't quite remember her. But what do we talk about if we don't remember it in that kind of detail?

And if that was the bar that our producer was saying, like in the office ladies, they go scene by scene. And that's how they do it. And so we tried that. And it just felt really stale and constrictive. Yeah. And then we tried, we changed it up. I mean, we tried a few different things. We did.

We did. I think we finally got our groove and, And, you know, for me, the best part was having the conversations with some of the people that we worked with. And, you know, because the episodes, and it was hard for me. And I've talked about this pretty openly. That it was, it was difficult for me to watch the show and transport back to 21 to 25 and everything that transpired in my life. And I was in the depression for a while watching it and realizing like, oh, it's a little triggering. And you didn't tell me that. I didn't say that.

Well, you said it on here. This last, oh, I didn't. Oh, did I? So I've listened to a few episodes. I've caught up a little bit. I didn't hear you say that, but you were extremely emotional from the last episode with Ben and Josh. Which we need to talk to you about. But, okay, so that's interesting because it does trigger certain things.

Certain personal memories. I'm sure it would transport you back to, you know, what was going on in your marriage or, you know. I was like, I remember the one scene. I remember what I was wearing. the scene and I was wearing purple eye shadow and I just had an argument with Ernie and Peter was like, what's wrong? And I'm like, I'm crying.

Yeah, right? But it does. It brings back all of those. And that's the thing you have to do when you're working. You have to shut off anything that's going on and you go on camera and you do the thing no matter what. Or use it, right? Yeah. Well, and I think that's

fascinating because, you know, I did read comments and Rachel. That's, yes. And do you? I made the great mistake of doing it and it didn't turn out well for me. I said, please don't read comments. Don't read the comments. Yeah.

Yeah, no. And it's, well, and it's just... But you did the whole time. Yeah, and it because I... Use it as constructive criticism? Well, no, because I just don't care anymore. Oh, okay. But in the beginning, because sometimes if it was constructive or interesting, it was worth it.

But what's interesting is it's more about... like, I can't control anybody's judgment. And of, and of course, most people on this planet, we all are walking around with judgment and subjectivity and self-criticism. And bottom line is, if something triggers you, if you're listening to someone or something or you feel cringy about something that happens out in the world, that's not about what happens in the world. It's about you. That's right. Working on it yourself, babe. Yep. You're cringy about some. And what's interesting about the podcast world is, I mean, the research that I did as much as I could, like, how do we do this? What are we doing? Because they want to hear about our behind the scenes experiences. But they also want us to talk about these characters, like they were real people. That was a light bulb moment for me when I was like, well, I don't really break it down like Julie and some are real people. It's like, why did they do this? And my answer is because it was written that way in the script. Right. So once I was like, oh, I need to talk about these people the way they talk about it. The day after they watched the episode in front of the water cooler, they're talking about what Summer and Seth did, right? And why? And breaking it down. And that was when I finally started going, oh, I can say a lot of this. And in the beginning, when I started preparing so much stuff and doing so much research, I would make sure I'd get all of it out. And then I started letting go of that and saying if any of this stuff,

comes up, I'm prepared to talk about it. But I don't have to say any of it. And that's when it became a lot more delightful and organic. So I mixed in Rachel. Well, it's like you baked it into the cake, right? You threw it in as one of your tools and it was on deck if you needed it. But it's not, I think, it sounds like you found your confidence with it. Like, okay, I've done the research.

I know what I know. And now let's just talk about it, right? Right. Well, and that's why, and then, you know, from time to time you have, you know, we were always trying to figure out, like, some guests were only in an episode for a little bit of time. And if I didn't feel like they were talking a lot, Mindy Mouth would take over and I would talk a little too much. That's me. Yeah. You know, yeah. And, and then, you know what? Also, one of the things, I can watch myself on camera. Well, maybe not recently, but whatever. But I didn't like listening to the podcast. Because I didn't want to hear yourself? I had never put myself out there as me. Oh. I didn't even like doing publicity because I felt it was just I wasn't my, I've learned

something about myself. Like anytime you do something new, I just, there's a comfortability curve. Sure. That you put yourself in something new and it's like, uh-oh. And I used to think of it as so negative. And now it's like I changed it around to being exciting. And going back and listening on doing it remotely. That's why I wanted to come here today.

I missed so many great opportunities because I didn't hear. Oh. There were some cool things that when I went back and watched like the McGee interview, he said something because I was like, that was still kind of in the beginning and we were still. And that was just a conversation, which I loved doing when we didn't have focus on an episode. And he said something really cool and he mentioned something about Peter Roth, but I was already on to the next thing. And I didn't jump on it.

And I was like, that could have been a cool conversation. So being a great interviewer is a skill. It is. I don't know that I have it. But I, no, it is. It is. And you, it's hard because you have to be constantly present and listening. So that's why, like, the prep stuff keeps you a little in your head.

You know what I mean? Which is, and then you did. Like, you said, like, once you let go of that, you had fun. Right. Right. And we're able to just like, oh, let's shoot the shit with Michael. capacity or whoever. Well, and that's the thing.

It's like having the guests that can have that. I mean, yeah, it's guest dependent too, for sure. Like, who's willing to just rip. I think that remote thing was such a challenge. I wouldn't necessarily hear something like Katie and I were talking about it. And she was like, I said, you know, like we had so many technical issues. Like all of a sudden there was the recent one with Norman where you had no video. Oh, yeah.

So we were, and it's like a weird thing when she's not there. And I didn't hear it. And Katie was like, you know, Rachel was trying to. to interject Mindy. I was like, oh, shit. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, you couldn't see me. I couldn't see. Remember when your house flooded? Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. She was like, I'm trying to do this and be, folk, be present. And here I am in my house is having, like, an emergency. It was definitely, I was wearing wellies and, yeah. It was Alex Fitzavis. Yeah. That's right. Wow, good memory. Yeah. I am curious, though, for you watching it, what was your emotional response to the show?

Yeah. This is where the van. sanity shit comes in. I want to, that's what we want to hear, though. We all deal with it. Well, I'm so grateful for the show. I loved it. I had watched it over the years. I'd watched it when the show was on.

I was a true fan of the show. In fact, when the show ended, I was super, super interested in why it had burned so bright and how it came to an end. Just because I was also aware, not in detail of the general atmosphere of the cast and crew, and, you know, that it kind of ended

with not the greatest of, and now that we know that Josh and Stephanie both had the word failure they used in their heads as the show ended. And they've rethought that now because I think it was such a huge success. But they had some very, it was very sad for a lot of people. And then some people were just like so ready to move on. Right. So I was comfortable with it. I think what's interesting is because now I'm excited at this point in my life for the first time.

of a new agency. And I was like, wow, for the first time in my life today, even, I don't have, and the podcast has done, CGs graduating from college, I got a fabulous life. I'm super happy, joy, attitude of gratitude, all those things that actually have been working on really seriously for the past like five years. And it's the first time I can actually do things for myself. And which means it's like, you know, when you lose the thrill of like acting or, you know what I mean, like Rachel knows she's, you know, when you're a mother and it's like you have to travel far to a different country or a different city, it's so challenging to enjoy your work. And it's like actors, we complain when we work, we complain when we're not working. And I'm trying to live in

a complaint free world. You know, I've got a rule. You say it one. Once it's a fact, you repeat it, you're complaining. There you go. I love that. I'm like, so I didn't sleep well last night. Fact, don't need to hear it again, you know. Oh, my husband will like that if I could have talked to that one. Yeah.

And it's because it's the more we can, if you can learn to live, you can think it in your head, but try to, you know, less is more, this Mindy Mowethney Mildy's sish, no one to shut. The less I say, it's amazing how that has a lot. an impact on your relationships and your life in general. Like it's, you know, save it for the right audience if you need to vent, you know, use it for your therapist, you know, try not to, I try not to do it to my husband. And even if I need to, it's like, do I have permission to do this right now? I need this to be really clear in communication. Wow. That's impressive. It's, it's, it's vigilance, like constant vigilance because this mind, this magnificent mind that we

have, I learned over the years that my brain has the ability to create hell on earth. That's right. Everyone's does. Yeah. And this negative self-talk that we've been doing to ourselves all the time. And especially when you go through a divorce or you're in a stressful situation and there's real things going on in the world or in your world specifically. And then you react to it in a dramatic way.

And I'm fear-based and I'm a victim and I'm living in fight or flight perpetually for years and your body knows no different. And then you hit menopause and then your hormones and then your mental, everything just domino effects. And your blood work is coming back funky and all that kind of stuff. And at some point it's like, I don't want to live like this because my emotional, it was affecting my health. Yeah? And it's just a, I'm not exactly sure. on that. But we've never talked to, we've never talked personally on our podcast. Right. No, that's why I'm so

happy. This is what we want. Yeah. This is what we care about. Right. And you know, when you say that, I say this a lot. They say it takes 10 positive, um, responses to counteract one negative. Is it 10? Because there was a five to one for a long time. They've been saying 10. And now if, and I believe that. Yeah. So think about that. All those free flowing negative thoughts. tend to balance, 10 to balance, 10 to balance, 10 to balance. That negative experience. Yeah, no. So when I say like pure negativity, and I would say 80% of my every, at some point became

my just natural responses to everything, everything, getting up, going to bed, doing the dishes. Everything was a negative. And it comes from just habitual thing that you do for over, 40 years or whatever it is. And so then when you go deep dive in therapy to figure out, okay, I'm going to figure this out from, oh, it started my, my dad was a, you know, you never knew it was going to come out of him because, and then that makes you hypervigilant. And then you're sensitive. And so you go back and you figure it out in your childhood. And then it's like, it's all great to figure all that out. But how am I going to apply it today? That's the question.

I mean, it's not my, it's not my fault what, quote, trauma may have happened to me. It's my responsibility to fix it or to heal from it. And taking action and actually doing something about it instead of saying it the second time. Yeah, right. Is that it's like as long as you take action. So then I went to a place of complete, like bliss almost. And now I'm coming back to a place of balance. Yeah.

Because our bodies, we desire homeostasis balance. And when you're like, I was very dramatic and then you'd have these super highs and lows all the time. And now what some people might call boring, I call peace. Because I find gratitude and waking up and doing the dishes and cleaning. And the pandemic magnified a lot of that. Broad Ideas is supported by Quincy. I love to be cozy. I love to be warm.

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I always say this too because I love it and I try and remember it as much as possible, turning every single have to into a get-to. Yeah, so even if it's the dishes. Like, oh, I have to do the dishes. No, I get to do the dishes because I have a home. I have a dishwasher. I ate a beautiful meal on these things. Like, as corny as that sounds, if you can practice it every day in that small way, not like, I have to drive to Rachel's in the rain.

Like, I get to, you know, I get to do this today in all shapes and forms. That helps drastically. Absolutely. When we were, it was funny, I was, I think every actor on the. planet right now, not every, but everyone that I run into, quite a few can't stand the self-tapes that they have to do at home because, and it's, and it's not. Have you booked a job off of self-tape? Well, it's the last one was Nikita.

Oh my gosh. That was a self-tape? Well, it was a self-tape that I sent in and then I came back to town and tested. Olivia just booked a job off of a self-tape. Nice. That we taped in this room. Yeah. That I taped her.

Yeah. And she just fucking booked apart. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you. I don't know if you wanted this to be any announcement, but I couldn't not say it. That's okay. I was so proud of her.

And it was not an easy audition, Mindy. It was like delivering like a baby. Like it was gnarly. And she fucking, yeah. So anyway, super proud today. Yes. It's hard to do. Well, I think that it's.

But, okay. So congratulations. Thank you so much. Because so many of my actors, they're like, We don't know where our tapes are going and we're missing that human connection. Like we're talking about doing a podcast right now in the same room, seeing each other. It is different than doing it over Zoom. But I've been told we are not going back.

And it's just, and also there's a number of different things that go into that. And so I can sit here and debate and be angry or resentful about the fact that, you know, this isn't going back to in the room. Or I can make peace with it and fucking enjoy the process. Yeah. Because it's, and I remember a Cassie director. Her name is Nan Dutton years ago. I don't know if you're... I remember that name.

And I remember her, she was just making me audition over and over and over again for something before I tested. And at some point, she was like, aren't you having fun? You're having fun. And I was bold enough to say, not so much. And she's like, why not? It's what you do. Oh.

And I, it never, it always stuck with me. And I realized that every medium requires something different. This medium of podcasting requires something different. Film, theater, commercials, whatever it is, know what's required for, and auditioning is a medium unto itself. And I think the hardest thing is finding a partner that will do it with you, because I'll do it for four hours. Oh, yeah.

CJ and Adam are like, I've learned how to get somebody on FaceTime and do it with me, if possible. But then also picking the scene, those are challenges. But there's something about it that I just love doing. That's awesome. I love doing. And I realize, and going back to your question about the OC, one of the things that I realized just this week that I was reflecting on, I was a little sad.

I was like, oh, God, what's wrong? And I realized because of my whole life whenever it's a part of something and the week after, I get to press. Yeah. I go to a musical theater camp and I come home, go, what do I do now? Because I needed that constant stimulation. Yeah. But I was like, it's okay.

It's temporary. Everything's temporary. I'll be fine. And, but then I started going, so what's next? I'm excited about what's next. But the thing that I came away from it was, oh, I'm looking forward to being part of something again. And I need that.

I need to. And I was like, I don't care if it's a play. Right. I had lunch with a friend of mine that we did musical theater camp. She's the, she works at, she's the president of Jim Henson Productions. And we were talking about our musical theater. And I said, wouldn't it be fun to go back to adult musical theater camp? Oh, my God.

Would like get all of our friends together and go, oh, it's in Idaho Wild. of where we did it. Oh my God, how cool. Yeah, and we did plays in their amphitheater, and I'm like, we should just get a bunch of adults together and do like Oklahoma. Oh, my God. That was like, I find joy in just like the silly sense.

Or maybe I'd do a movie with Gary Krebs. Oh, well, he sent you one. Are you going to do it? No, I haven't finished the script. So Gary Greer, he was a, he played Bullet on the OC, and this guy was larger than life character. He would recognize him. He's like a character actor.

Like he's been in a ton of staff. But we, he was on the O scene during the interviews like, Minnie, I'm sending you a script. Yeah. I haven't, I just, I haven't quite finished it. So I have to look. But, but, you know, producing is always something. At some point, you're like, if I never get in front of the camera again, I'm fine.

I used to have this, you know, and producing is a great thing. Like, I don't, the last time on camera and I wasn't like super happy. I was kind of shocking to seem like You mean Fantasy Island? Yeah, I was like, oh, what do they do? And it's like, oh, they did be dirty. Just because we're used to, because I've been watching the OC. And you can't compare your 30s to that.

And then there's a little bit of like, there's that vanity of like, oh, my dermatologist, I just wanted to see because I get checked for skin cancer. And he's like, you know, we should do that CO2 resurfacing and give you a little hecklift. Oh. You know, he was like, we do this and it'll just look fabulous. And I'm like, first of all, I don't have the time or the money to do all that. Like, that's like downtime.

But, you know, somebody says it, he's been telling me for 20 years, we should resurface. And it's like, what is it? Like the CO2 laser, like, that's the one that goes deep and you end up your whole space. Oh, when you look red. And then it comes off and it takes off all that. It's different than microneedling? Yeah, that, that's, yeah, it is. So speaking of vanity, what is your relationship with it and watching yourself from in your 30s to where you're at now?

Because we think that this is such an important conversation. Yeah. As far as aging in, especially in the public eyes, different than, you know, what other people experience, right? Well, it's there. It's present. I mean, because we are on a show that was, look, I know where there's a cultural. conversation about how we present ourselves on social media and filters and all that kind of stuff, I think there's a place for it and then there's a place not for it because we have to remember,

I was just watching Nicole Kimman in the end doing last night up close and I was like, we have to remember that this is considered art. We're framing and lighting and cameras with lenses are shooting these actors, plus in post they can do all kinds of things. And I think it's our responsibility to not compare, because I'm the same age as she is, and I haven't, like, I'm like, whoa. She's done, like, she doesn't have, like, a wrinkle, right? Like, it's pretty. You don't look.

And then, but the thing that I find myself, I tend to gravitate when I'm watching TV, I gravitate towards the actresses that are my age and haven't seemed to have had work done. And I'm like, I'm doing that now with my age. Yeah. Like, looking at other. Right. You know. Right.

And it's, there's, there, when you get put, when you're on a show like the O.C. And there's a Julie Cooper, the milf. Yeah. Like, and you kind of get. You're still the mouth, maybe. I'm a reluctant mouth. Oh my God. I'm like, no.

I was like, okay. It's fine. Because that wasn't necessarily. But there's a, but. And then you do see these auditions that come up and they'll say the beautiful, stunning beautiful and I'm like I you know sometimes I'm like are you sure that's me yeah okay uh but you second guess it but then it's like I find myself watching all the British shows or something where everybody looks so normal and natural yeah and not so like nothing guess she's lovely I'm like but

it's but sometimes when you're like it's distracting when there's nothing there she's so stunning and so beautiful that it's like it almost distracts from but uh so like I hate my neck right now like honestly like I was like oh what is that like but it's more of like a genetic thing and it's like saggy and I was like oh I don't like my profile or but we just I'm just like everybody else I find things like if I had two things I would be my neck and my but the thing that I hate the most about getting my feet what's up with their feet my so my I had this beautiful beautiful feet just like if you wanted to if I'd wanted to be a ballerina it would have been a model well apparently genetically because my mom was a ballerina I have bunions now. And I can all of my shoes, my lovely shoes that I had over the years,

I still have them. Like my feet are going to change. They don't fit. I only have very limited. I have to have wide now. And a lot of it came from wearing really high heels on like, for instance, like Nikita. And it was just going to genetically happen. But like my feet and although my skin's better than it's ever been. Great. I mean, so so there's like focus on. Wait, bunions happen. They can just come up later? Yes. Men. Yeah. So they can. They're chinatine out. And I can't believe I just said that. But we get real here.

Yeah. But there's so many things like, yeah, aging is difficult. My menopause story is awful. How old were you? Awful. Tell us. So I believe that it was early and it was induced by stress. Because nothing's ever for sure. But if you want to look at like how your mom was,

like when she went through menopause, like how her first birth was, you know, all these things. You try to use your mom as a barometer for these things. And the average age is around 50, 51. But I was doing Nikita in Toronto. And you've heard me say, and that goes back to the 10 to 1. You were saying 10 to 1. But everything was so negative. I was going through divorce and then moving to Toronto.

While your kid was in L.A. Well, and she was like, Mom, I don't want to go with you. I just want to stay at my school. So I was like, okay. Is how old was EG when you got Nikita? Ten. Right. They're very set in their friend.

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, okay. So it just, there was a number of things that happened where she came with me to start because it was summertime. And then finding an apartment was kind of last minute. And then setting her, it's like, you know, it's like just going to a new country with a child. And she's very unhappy about it.

Yeah. And then all of a sudden it was, you know, it was the first show, their series I'd done after the O.C. And I just, I didn't realize how much I was grieving or having some kind of PTSD from getting divorced and moving and all that kind of stuff. Because I couldn't memorize my dialogue. Oh. And I had monologues of dialogue. And it's like, well, now I've learned that when you're going through anything like grief, your first thing that goes is your short term memory. And Kelly was telling me, Kelly and I were talking about this.

Kelly Rowan. She had, when her mom passed, she. had this similar experience because there's learning mode and survival mode. Yeah. And when you're in survival mode, you're just like, and you're in adrenaline, we're designed to have fighter flight maybe 90 seconds, 20 minutes max. But when you're in it 24-7, then everything starts adrenal cortisol. It affects your hormone system.

So basically what I did was I thought I moved to Canada thinking that I was going to to be there for four years. That was my brain. I'm going to take all this stuff with me and I'm going to ship my car and everything. I was able to end up flying back and forth like almost every three weeks just to see CG. But I was also, you're on a series and it's an action show and you're shooting 24 hours a day or you're shooting 18 hours a day. And I didn't even do as much as the crew did and it was exhausty for them. But then I'd jump on a plane. I'd work all night, jump on a plane, go back. So my circadian rhythms were off and it was just like high stress. just getting it done.

And I had to figure out how to memorize my dialogue. And I found that walking on the treadmill, running on the treadmill, and just doing it for hours and hours on end, whereas I used to spend maybe an hour before. And just look. Yeah. You just have to do it and do it and do it. And now I've learned since that most actors, really good actors, Robert Downey Jr., or Bill Knight will talk about his process of hours and hours of memorizing dialogue. so you don't have to think about it. So you can throw it away.

Like your research. Yeah. And now that's what I do. So there was a lot of that going on. And there was just, it was just high. And then the first thing was like 2012, I missed my period. And I was like, oh, shit, pregnant. I can not be pregnant.

Like that was like my first thing. And I was like, and then that didn't happen. I was like, oh, that's interesting. Next year. Same thing. It missed again. I was like, oh, that's really weird. and by 2014, like 45 years old, all of a sudden I was like done.

Wow. And then afterwards I was like, I went to these functional medicine doctors and they were like, your adrenal system. Now, this isn't a true medical term, but they say it to you, but your adrenal system is shock, adrenal fatigue. Yep. You've been in cortisol, you know, and it's not technically a medical term, but there is something to be said for a nervous system.

being disregulated. And they're like, you need to just sit for two years. Oh, my God. And I was like, I don't know. What? And you know, and you need to like, you know, figure all this out. And it took a little bit of time. But eventually, you know, my father passed right when I was ready to get back to work. Pandemic happened. And it was just like this whole thing of like, okay, the world is turned off. Right. It's quiet. When Hollywood shuts down, like, my brain was like, there's no job to get. What do I do with myself? Oh, now I'm going to do some deep work and figure out some stuff.

So that stuff started when the pandemic started. Are you doing the work and stuff? Yeah, yeah. Well, like really deeply because, you know, just when you're like. Yeah. Because it's so, and so the menopause thing was, it was so bad. I was getting hot flashes like every 15 minutes. Oh my gosh.

And I had, you know, my iPhone. Adam had bought me these little plug-in fans that I could, literally just go around and I beat everywhere with it. And women would come up to me and say, that's brilliant. Where'd you get it? I'm like, four bucks, Amazon. You like, you just plug it in so you never knew. Right. That's genius. And it would come up. And I mean, so I had to, I had to analyze like what's causing anything from spicy food to emotions to loud noises when you're like, you know, so you don't realize you're shell shocked, alcohol, anything that. So I start eliminating everything in my and trying not to just to constantly be vigilant and then everything started

to subside like even eating too many carbs or something could bring on a hot flash and then because we couldn't really do much that peacefulness from the pandemic everything magnified just that healing of you know a lot of therapy a lot of talk a lot of everything and um and cg adam and i you know because we'd gone through divorce i got remarried it was challenging for everybody was a decade of like some pretty high high stress but the wonderful thing is to have come out of that to now if I hadn't gone through all of those difficult things because you'd never predict how difficult it is and also taking ownership of how I now can react to the world because how are you going to react when the world happens and I was a dramatic negative Nelly.

Do you feel different in your responses? night and day. Oh, absolutely. It's an interesting thing. So recently, I had lunch with Shane West, he was a co-star on Nikita. Sure. We were talking about it and I was telling him, I was like, God, you know, Nica, Toronto was so hard, because this is my narrative. It was so hard. The same thing that I basically told you guys. But he goes, God, Mindy, I don't remember that at all. You were so, like, you were just so fun and we had a great time. And I was like, I need to go back and rethink this. Because my narrative, has become very negative.

And it was like, wait, I've been blaming the city of Toronto for my, and I realized how much one of my flaws was the assignment of blame, blame the ex-husband, blame Hollywood, blame Toronto, you know, as opposed to going, wait a second, what if I was just doing the best I could? I was just in survival mode, and you did great. You never fucked up. You never had a blooper. and you did 10 pages of dialogue.

Like, you know, all those things like, and I, because I used to tell people, I was going to work with a knife to my throat. Because I did feel like that. Right. Because somebody had to pay the bills. You know, it was like, seizures in school.

And, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, if I can't maintain this, I was like, wait a second, you're never going to be all those things. You're not going to be homeless. Like those things that you create in your mind, like your biggest fears,

they'd never come true. And that's why I say my brain was, creating this stress. Yeah. That wasn't there. And if I, so now I'm like, wait a second. Yes, there were a few times when I was leaving Sherman Oaks and C.G. was running down the street going, Mommy, don't leave me.

I can't. And I was heartbroken. And then I, there was one time she was staying with a friend and I called my friend. And I'm like, how is she? She's like, she's fine. Right. Yeah. But I didn't realize I was suffering from a broken.

broken heart. Yep. Oh, mom. That's true. Broken heart. I know. I know. It's so.

I was thinking about that because when you, your little girl goes, Mommy, okay, you just work at the whole foods. Right there. That was around the corner from your house. I'm like, you want to go to Oakwood? She was like, and she literally was like, and then she, and then my mom, oh, my God, we're going to start great. One time she was, my mom was in Dana Point and my daughter and C.G. would go to camp with her.

Or she'd go to like surf camp down at my mom's when like, because I think Ernie had to be out of town and I had to be in Toronto. And shit. My mom told me recently that she just, she was like 11. She's like, I miss my mommy. And she would just cry. I would just cry. I can't. I can't.

I can't even look at her. Oh, my God. It's so hard. So hard. But there's a way of going through that without being selfish too. Because I realize that that guilt and that shame or that like I'm responsible for a divorce, I'm responsible for. And it's like I'm, if I'd been a little bit healthier or had learned what I know now,

I'd been able to say, that's okay. It's okay, you miss me. And I could have told myself, Mindy, you're safe. You don't have to be afraid of the world. Like every day I got up like I was in a foxhole. You don't have to be like, why are you creating that? Because, and it's like, and being negative, being scared, they're real things and they're important when something real is going on.

But if nothing's going on, all it's doing, like, worry is the most useless emotion on the planet. What does it do? Tell me one thing worry helps with. And I think it starts when we give birth. I mean, I remember these moments of, it became very vulnerable when all of a sudden I remember one time, I was shooting the ghost whisper and we shot late and C.G was with Ernie. And I came home. It was one of those like long, long weeks of working and shooting nights.

And it was four in the morning and I was taking a shower. And I just remember this very, very specifically that I thought, what if somebody were outside my house right now? And it became real. Like my, it was like, do I hear something? You know, where you're in your, and you don't realize the simplest things are the answers. Like, why are you having so much anxiety? Because you're in survival mode.

Because you had a stressful day. because Ziji was crying this morning, because all of these things that I only knew how to react with fear. And then your body doesn't know the difference. No. It just registers it. And it's like, oh, here we go. And then I've created that somebody was outside of my house and I was all by myself.

And I was like, and I remember thinking like to this day, it's like our minds are so powerful. Right. They're so powerful. So if one is dealing with some serious depression, it's a. okay, but the practice, it's really important to take action and try to practice that positivity. And I don't, I mean, at some point, I'm sure I was toxically positive. Toxically. There's a bridge, right?

There's some, like, you know, where, you know, it's like, and it's, it's difficult to debate somebody that, like, you know, for a while there, it was like, I just, I can't go to anger because anger represents fear. Like some people can just, I'm angry at the world and I'm allowed to be that way because all this shit happened to me. If you're putting it on other people,

it's highly unattractive. Negativity and... Well, it's also not real. Nobody's responsible for creating in your world. Yeah. Right? It's only your perception and you have to take responsibility

for your perception. Right. Right? I can't create in your world. You can't create in mind. Mm-hmm. Not to see. there aren't victims, of course there are victims. But the most powerful work is how do you get

right-sized with everything? Right? So you're not dramatic. You're not skipping over it. You're not any of those things. You're getting right-sized with it. What is an appropriate response to this? Right. And in every way, shape, or form, I feel like people are either trying to jump the response or undercut it. Right. And that's why I think there's something. to be said for, look, we're all narcissistic and survivors and at our core, because when anything happens, I remember when we had to tell Cigi that we, you know, we went to a psychologist, a child psychologist and said, we're going to tell her that we're splitting. How do we do this? She said, well, the word divorce is like fire to a child. And she's going to think about herself because,

you know, but she's a survivor and, you know, and sure enough, when we told her. her, her first thought was like, what's going to happen to me? Like, how does this affect me? And one of the things as adults, when our partners or people around us are going through things, first of all, it's not my fault that my husband had a bad day. And I don't need to take it personally. Yeah. And I used to do that like, what? What? You know, as opposed to, I'm really sorry, you had a bad day. I'm here for you. Or you're giving me this info. Do you want me to just listen? Or do you want me to just listen? Or do You want to process it with me. Like, what do you need for me right now?

That communication is so key. And, you know, I mean, for a long time, you know, the narrative is you're blaming, like I said, you're blaming an ex-husband or constantly blaming, if that's my one of the things that I do. But the power of actually letting go of things is so free. What was your process, though, in letting go? Because it's not that easy, right? The idea of letting go is simple, but how did you actually do it? What got you to the point where you could be like, you know what?

I can let this one go. Well, a lot of talk, a lot of therapy. You know, we did some marriage counseling. There's the four agreements. There's like Eckartoli. There's a lot of this. There's just a lot of self work in that I started working on myself and working on that like, no complaining and trying not to be negative and just not verbalizing things.

It's amazing how things actually develop in that way. And that all of a sudden, the better I got, and I wasn't blaming or you're not engaging in something negative, the better my husband got. And CG's done her own therapy. And it's almost like personal boundaries for ourselves, like healthy boundaries where we respect each other and say, okay, what do you need for me? I think a lot of the emotion that I was always doing was like I didn't realize it was self-centered. I didn't realize that my overreaction, like, Cigi will tell you that I was like an overreactive, you know, she's not taking responsibility for as a teenager for her actions yet. Yeah. Few more years there.

But like you said, I didn't realize I always wanted to break the cycle of being an overreactive. Like my dad was pretty overreactive. He was, he could be a rageaholic from time to time. He was like amazing out in the world. And then at home, it was like walking on eggshells. You never knew when he'd blow up. And that I've learned teaches that hypervigilance. When you walk in the room, you're always checking to see, like, to say, what do we got today?

Right. Or I cared about, you know, I cared about what people think, and especially like Hollywood. Right. Hollywood is like so judgmental. And you realize, like, wait a second. You know, I had some things. It's like, it was angry at my dad. And then I realized I'm like, wait a second.

I think the work that I did like on my relationship with my dad after he was. he passed was really important, some grief counseling and such, where it was like, oh, I could have avoided all of this emotion by just accepting who he was. We have to accept our parents and try not to change them when you're realizing you're trying to, you know, that's a really difficult one. But it's also, I think, hard, like growing up with a parent when you are walking on eggshells because I think that can kind of train you and how you, like you're saying, you know, when you go in a room like, oh, what's this person going to be like? And it's very formative, like what you're exposed to as a child.

And so not everybody does the work to kind of look at that too, right? You have to do the work. You can't just, otherwise it's a spiritual bypass. And if you go to just accepting without the processing, then it's a bypass and that's all still in there. Yeah. Right? Laying dormant or silent and it comes out as resentment or hostility or any of those things. But like in order to accept, we have to process first. Right. And I'm past the processing point. And it was like it was a really wild, well, not wild, but when I realized that, oh, a lot of

this was it? It was such a weird thing when you realize you're blaming because the, here's the world is neutral. I mean, there's certain situations we know that are just inherently bad. Like, and we get them every week, just like this week. But it's a neutral situation until I apply a positive or a negative, which means that I'm constantly going through the world judging everything. And to become, you know, I saw the Dalai Lama was recently asked. I saw something on TikTok or somebody said, what do you have to say about negative thought? And he goes, two things. One, negative thoughts are self-centered. And two, your reality is false.

Groovy. Just simple is that. Because when you realize that, you know, oh, and so now I've been so practiced in that if I ever feel ill at ease, I go, what is that? I'll check that out. Oh, you just made that up in your head. Don't give into it. Or if it's like something as simple as like, I said a text.

to somebody and they didn't get back to me. And I'm usually not like that or something, but I was expecting something sooner. And it's like, well, what's going? And you create this now. What's going on? Of course. And it's like, that is so self-centered because it's like, all about you. Yeah. Yeah. I've been doing that in the past few days. Like everything's negative and it's all like how, oh, nobody wants to talk to me. Nobody wants, you know, you like you have these things in your head that it's all about you and it's negative. But you're right. It is self-centered. And it's false. But you create these things. And it's so, and like Olivia's always like, stop, like giving yourself that narrative.

What did you say to me yesterday? She said something like that yesterday. She was just like, let's try not to do that today. Get out of the hole. Get out of the hole. Abort. Yeah. Just don't do.

I think yesterday I was like, yeah, just don't. Like, let's just not do that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think there's something to be said. I just realize how present, you know, oh, that's the other thing that I, when all of this stuff we're talking about, it is like it is so disruptive to have this constant obsessive thought of the future.

Because anxiety is fear of the future, right? And depression is ruminating about the past. And you're one or the other. And you literally cannot be present if you're doing that. You can't do both at the same time. Also, this idea that all my life I've been trying to get there. I want to get there. But there is no there because when there gets here, it's here.

that doesn't exist. Like there isn't over there. So this like, what am I doing right now? I'm talking to Rachel and Olivia. That's right. And being right here, that has taken me a lot of practice. And like in the podcast, that's a lot of practice. So there's so many life lessons that came from that because do you guys listen to the

Huberman Lab? Have you heard of that? So it's like the number one podcast. I was just listening to it. Peter Attia was on. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

So that's like those. I'm so also, it's not just like, I'm so interested in being healthy, mind, body, spirit because I didn't really have the spirit part down. And I still don't quite know what that is, but I'm trying to work on that. I think you're, I think you're in it. I think you're embodying it. But he was talking about something that really resonated with me. He was saying that for 40 years, he was a negative self-talker. And he's super competitive. And all he would do is just really beat himself up. highly successful doctor. And he literally had to seek treatment.

And one of the exercises, and he's like, there's no way you're going to reverse this. This is just the way my brain works. I'm negative and I beat myself up. And one of the exercises he had to do was every time he wanted to do that, he actually had to take out his phone. Instead of talking to himself and being, you know, mean to himself, he had to pick his best friend and record, hey, whatever his friend's name, it's okay, pick your son. you just move on to the next thing.

Be kind and treat yourself. And I thought, well, yeah, that's the same thing. If we talk to ourselves in the disrespectful, negative way, we wouldn't talk to our best friends that way. Ever. Ever. We'd be loving and nurturing and tell them all of the amazing things that they possess and who they are and what we see.

It's the same thing as when if you, Lori Gottlie, you know, you put the picture of you as a child on the mirror and you say, like, every day you look it. You say, you suck. Could you imagine? You don't deserve to be here. You're a loser. Right.

You're not. And all of this stems from every single thing is I'm not good enough. Right. I'm not good now. Or, you know, like I just put all that time into that audition. I've been doing this for 35 years. Right. I'm okay to do an audition and move on.

Right. But yeah, if they're not coming if you definitely, that's a constant rejection. But you've got to move on. But it's hard. I mean, it is hard, right? I think it's, I think there's a difference in, like, after the OC ended, I think I said this on the podcast. I was like, I was nervous, you know, because there was, my brain was like, I've got to maintain this life. And the truth was, no, I don't.

Right. What? Who said that's the rule? And so when Nikita happened, my first reaction was like, oh, I can't do it. I can't. I can't leave this country. And then I was like, how do I say no to this? This is really, you know, it's the same, you know, still McG's company.

So it was more working out of desperation. And now I'm like, no, no, no, I have to have joy in what I'm doing. Right. It doesn't mean that there's not still obstacles or challenges, but, you know, problems are just, don't focus on the problem. There's just solutions. I always say there's no problems, just solutions. Yeah.

And it's a practice that the time during pandemic helped because we could only do so much. And it's like, I remember going like, because all of a sudden, there's no, look, this is first world problems. And it was actually a good thing. You know, you've employed a housekeeper all these years or something. And it's like, sorry, you can't come into my house anymore. And things that I hadn't done for like, humbling. Well, but then I was like, oh, wow, look at all the positive that comes from this. And I get this sense of accomplishment. And, you know, like, for instance, like my business manager is just my accountant now. I do all. all my own stuff now because when you're an actor and you're traveling, they pay your bills.

They, and especially before automatic payment and stuff, you've kind of set up this world where everyone does everything for you. And now I'm like, no, I can do that. Now I can do that. And it's the first time, it sounds odd people, sorry, but it's the first time in my life where I'm just doing everything on my own because there's so much required from an actor being on set all the time. You could not pay your bills on time, especially in a different country.

So you have to have somebody doing that. So I see every scent that goes in and out. And I've never done that before because somebody else was doing it. But I'm curious, Rachel, like, do you picture yourself going back on a series? Are you with all that? So this is a struggle I have. Yeah. And it's hard to talk about without sounding, you know, no matter what I say,

sounding like an asshole either way. Being a mom is number one. Mm-hmm. That is the most important thing in my life. and to me. And now, like, I'm so involved and I know what it's like to be on a series, be the lead of a series, you know, all that time away. It gives me massive anxiety. Like, I passed on a job last year. Yeah. Because I put my kid first, you know. And that was hard. It was hard financially. It was hard, you know, mentally just because you're like,

but that was the right decision for me and for her. Because, It's, you know, the last time I did, Briar was three when I went back to work. And I did a series and I was a lead and I was in every scene. And like, it was extremely hard. Yeah. So, you know, and also like you don't uproot your kid when they're so settled in their school and their friends. Like that would be really hard too. And would I move her to Vancouver or, and, you know, so many things come into play.

And it's really in the business we're in being a mother. I think that stuff needs more attention, you know. I feel like people talk about it and the child care element and all of that. Like I wish that they would be more, you know. Yeah. I mean, I remember you texted me and I was like, oh, sweetheart. Yeah. It's just so challenging.

Yeah. It's like follow your heart. Yeah. And I did. You did. You did. And she did like a meditation with me. And I like got this sign.

And I was like, no, I have to do what's right. for my kid, you know. Have you regretted it since at all? Well, the show didn't go. So, well, that's because you weren't in it. Well, I'm sure if it went and it was really successful, that would have been hard, you know, because that's also something like I, you know, provide for my kid and our house and, you know, like we have to provide. And so that would have been more challenging. So I'm grateful I kind of, but it didn't go. It's so much, I mean, there's so much women have the highest level of anxiety or mothers. And actually, they've done studies that mothers of special needs have even higher levels of anxiety.

She has a child. Oh, I didn't know. Yeah. Child. Oh. What's the term? We don't know. Well, he's got a lot of terms.

Well, he's got special needs. He's neurologically divergent and has hearing loss and all kinds of fun stuff. Yeah. For her anxieties. We were just talking about that this morning. How do you handle it? We were talking about it this morning. I do so much work.

Like literally. Like you've ground yourself, put your feet on the ground every morning. I do a lot of yoga. I do a lot of therapy. I work with, I'm sober in a program. That program helps me a lot. I have a supportive partner. I have the best friends support.

I mean, we were talking about it this morning about like the trauma of that alone is its own trauma. We're talking about like trauma response therapy and like, you know. know all of that and what traumas we've all had. Have you tried EMDR? I have. Yeah, yeah. And I really liked it. I feel like it's something I would like to do more. Have you done it? Have you done it? I haven't. It was told to me. And you have to find a therapist who does it and believes in it. But it's been highly successful with vets coming home and some post-traumatic stress. And you have to relive that trauma, which is for someone I know, who's done it was really hard, but it's one of the things that was holding this person back.

And but yeah, no, fine. And reliving it and the eye movement is, they found that it's very significant. I have someone. Oh, yeah. I do. She's amazing. I want to try it. She's in Santa Barbara.

Yeah. Oh, you can do it over. I did it over Zoom. Yeah. Oh, you can do, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. See, they call it, there's big T's and little T's.

There's the obvious traumas of childhood. like big, you know, trees and then there's developmental trauma. And I was told that maybe I had developmental trauma. Because just from, you know, like we said, simply having a parent that could rage. And because you don't end up having a self, although I was pretty confident as a child, but what you're trying to do is constantly be vigilant

to everybody else's feelings, as opposed to like, I'm good. I've got my feet on the ground. I belong here. Yeah. I didn't realize I probably am a people pleaser. And that go out of my way to be, you know, people like, you're so great on set. And I was like, sometimes, but I was a conscious choice, but maybe it wasn't always healthy, you know, because I like to have fun.

I like to be around people. And I grew great attitude. You've always been, like, out of that show, originally you asked me what it was like for me, right? How is it? You were the best. Yeah. Like, you always were like, you just always had such a great spirit and were fun and welcoming and loving and, you know, just an awesome personality.

And always. That's why I asked you to do the TV podcast, too. I was like, well, obviously, it's Mindy. Yeah. Across the board. Everybody loves Mindy. You know, like you. Well, and it was such a lovely time.

And I remember thinking, like, I don't remember. See, my anxiety started. before CG was born. Like, do you remember the moment that you started? Like, there's a difference between in your 20s when you're like going happy, you go lucky. Yeah. And then, you know, I had nothing in my 20s.

Like, I did not have. I did. She did massively. Like, my friends were really going through all that stuff, but it didn't happen for me until much later. Right. Yeah. It makes sense.

Being a mall. I mean, it adds for sure. It does. Well, and my sister passed away when she was 26 years old. And that was 94. And about three years later. I started going, and there were some, like, I was on this TV show with an actor who was doing some really shady stuff behind people's backs and people are like, watch out. And I'm like, what? He's saying bad things about it. And it was like, and I started going, whoa, like having all of these feelings of distrust and like, be careful, you know. And then I remember getting pregnant. And I remember going to my, this is back in the days where it was like I was pregnant and I had a baby. And I went to my agency. Remember we were built at APA.

Oh my God. Yeah. I was too. And I remember at one point, Pamela, she was like, you need to show up here without the baby and remind people how sexy you can be. And I was like, oh, oh, wow, they're not as excited about my child as I. I mean, this is like still kind of, I mean, nowadays, it was a very. That wouldn't happen now. Right. And it's very, very much was like the entourage feel of it all back then. And at one point, I remember when I was, I remember I auditioned for the original X-Men.

Rebecca Romaine ended up doing it, but I had auditioned, and they were like, they want you to come back and you have to audition in a bikini, I think it was, but I was pregnant only a couple weeks. And I said, yeah, no, sorry. And my excuse was, I don't want to audition in a bikini. And my agents were mad at me. They were like, why not? It's Brian Singer. He's gay. Like, that was the response.

And I said, I'm not comfortable. And the bottom line was I couldn't do it because I was going to be giving birth when they were. shooting, you know. And, but I remember him being angry. And I thought, Hollywood is just not supportive of young mothers and pregnancy in general. And, or old mothers. Any mothers. Yeah. Any mothers. It's wild how much things have changed. I remember being on that show that I was talking about. And one of the executives of the company said, because I got married. And he goes, during it, Ernie and I got married in 97th. And the producer who's like, you're not going to get pregnant. are you? Even then that was like, so, and then I, you know, so it's like it was always this like,

so crappy. It was so odd. But when I did get pregnant, I would still go on auditions. And I remember going into an audition. I was wearing like capri black pants and a tight black shirt. So straight on, because I was literally just like a little basketball, straight on, I didn't look like anything. And I went into this audition and turned. And the woman was like, the casting director was like, what do you doing? And I was like, what do you mean? And I was like, what do you mean? She just. She's like, you're pregnant. And I said, yeah. She was, well, I said, I'm due on this date and this doesn't shoot until then.

She was like, how is that going to work? I said, like, any other working mom, I got to work. Right. And it was like, she looked at me like, you just wasted my time. And I said, no, I can still, like, you know, you want to stand up and say, you can't discriminate against me because I'm pregnant. Right. But there's a lot of that.

Especially from women to women. That's what, like men, it's almost like, okay, you don't get it. but for another woman, whether it's an agent or a casting director or anything to say it to another woman, feels a little bit insane. Yeah, I feel like, I mean, that is the one thing that I feel like we're missing are those relationships with the casting directors. Because it's just on tape. But we still have to give them props for, you know, the fact is that more people can audition with self-tape than being in person now. So it makes it harder.

Which is pretty insane. But don't you like the aspect of being able to do it until you get it the way you want it? Yes. But the only thing is that it puts a little bit of stress on my partner because they're doing it over and over again. And, you know, I have like a few people that I can call from. But, you know, Adam's at grad school. So he's like, he doesn't have time to do it. Right.

And also it's- I'll zoom you anytime. I was going to say call me. Call me your radio. Yeah. Rachel had, Rachel, yeah. Well, yeah. Well, that's what we do. Okay. So we like to have some fun with some questions. Okay. Are you ready and open and willing? We'll see. Yeah. Okay. Did you or would you ever date or sleep with a friend's ex? No. You said, you like to say that I was thinking about this today. You were like, I think you're very Julie Cooper and I'm like, no. No. Well, Because I'm not, in some ways, yes. In some ways. But I brought Mindy into Julie, I think, because, like, the tequila and the dancing with the fireman, that was like Mindy.

But never, never a gold digger and never, like, man hungry. Right. No, I believe that. Yeah. So a good time, though. Let me paint a situation, though. Okay. Say I dated someone, right?

And it's been, I don't know, like 20 years, something like that, right? not a true love, just someone I dated. If I wanted to set them up with someone now, that's my best friend, would that be weird? No. See? Right? No. I set them up, though.

Shh. Wait. Wait. You're married. I'm married happily with children. I dated someone a long time ago that she set me up with. Now I'm thinking I'd like to set her up with them. Oh, okay.

I was like, wait a second. You're married to the person that Rachel dated? No, no, no. Oh, so is it weird for you? Yeah, a little weird for other reasons that I won't disclose on the podcast. Okay. But it wasn't some great love of my life. There's big distance there. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. His penis has been inside her. Like once. That magical mind of yours. How much eye contact do you like during sex? That's, uh, I listened to your Whitney Cummings episode. Oh my God.

And I'm so shocked that she's, first of all, a fabulous guest and talker and so many wonderful things to say. And she's talking, you say one tiny little sentence. And that's what gets extrapolated. Do you believe that? Hello. And in context, like, it was just a conversation. Yeah.

And they took that one thing out of a three-hour conversation where Whitney had amazing things to say. Right. Right. I know. And then today I was like, oh. did that happen to me too? No. No, actually, no, I was, I was capable of doing that. But they're like misconstruing it like it was my first orgasm, which is not, that's not even what you said. It's not what I said. No, no, no. And it's, yeah. And also I think here's the thing because I was like,

trying to say, what's the difference? Oh, just because you've dated other celebrities. Yeah. That was the only reason. Okay. But no, but I think there is something to be said for that age around 40 that was if you find the right person. Uh-huh. But I'm not. married him. Right. And that it was like, whoa, I've never had this experience before. Got it. Yeah.

And I've had plenty of experiences. Right. This was worth, this was marriage worthy. But it was also kind of like, I used to say this thing like, there was something that was different for me to like all of a sudden become open. Right. Try think. Like, and it was more this feeling of like, you deserve me.

I feel safe with me. Safe. It's you feel safe. Sure. I didn't have any like, like it was just like, yeah, let's try that. Yeah, let's try that. How fun is this? How long is it, oh, hours, whoa.

Well, I mean, we're kind of in that where that was that honeymoon phase. Right. Right. But yeah, it's a comfortability. Yeah. Yeah. Which also is like, sure, it's partner dependent, right? But it's mostly you probably called in a partner you were more comfortable with

because you were more comfortable with yourself at that time, right? Maybe. Or, you know, I mean, it's kind of... How old were you when you met Adam? I was 38, but we didn't date until I was 39. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Something like that. Yeah. But eye contact? How do you feel about that? It's not always been my thing, but I can work. Because I know my partner likes it. Got it. Yeah.

Yeah. Do guys like it more than girls? I think so. I think so, too. Because I'm like... They're visual. Yeah. I'm like, I don't need some.

I don't want to look at you. I need to look in your eyes. But every once in a while, like, you know, you might have okay sex with somebody, but you might be pissed off at him. I don't know. But you feel like, oh, that's a duty. But then, but then when you, I don't know,

there's a lot, when you want to give, when you find yourself wanting to give to someone, and really, then that's a different experience. Because there's, at one point I was like, I'm a demisexual, you know, like somebody who can only, connect like emotionally or something but then but wait is that the way what does that the term? I think it's um you can only connect with somebody emotionally not physically or you have to get to

that physical I could be I could be really messing that up but I think it has to look at it up that you have to connect with someone emotionally to to connect with them physically I don't think I think that might be a simplistic way of saying it I do like to have an emotional connection though I hate it. No, I'm just kidding. Okay. Demis sexuality is a sexual orientation in which an individual does not experience primary sexual attraction, the type of attraction that is based on immediately observable characteristics such as appearance or smell and is experienced immediately after a first encounter.

What? So it's saying it's... Demisexual people only feel sexually attracted to someone when they have an emotional bond with the person. Oh, got. There we go. Okay. So, you know, but then I was like, but actually, know the latter was more prevalent. Like smell. Smell is a big, like,

a fairmoan. The smell of, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's massive. Yeah. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken? The biggest risk. Yeah. Coming here today. Driving to the rain for Ventura. I mean, seriously. Looks like the sun's coming out. I don't, you know, it's like, it was, it was hard to get divorced. Yeah. I think that was. How old was CG when you guys divorced? Well, we separated when she was eight. Okay. And then it wasn't finalized.

So shoot, 2011. And the truth be told, I don't recommend it unless you can be really good and solid for your kid. I mean, and good co-parenting. And, you know, I mean, it's just really, it can be a challenge. You're saying you don't recommend a divorce. It's just like, I don't, I mean, I'm not saying that I wouldn't do it again. I just, I wish that I'd had a little bit more prep in my own mental health. And that I'd handle.

that those next 10 years a little bit better. Because it, like, you, as I explained, it was a little bit stressful. And I didn't realize how much grief and how, because I thought, you know, it's like what we both want and we're doing this. And it just was, it was highly like, I don't know what's going to happen each day for for a number of years kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like that's a common response from people that get divorced, like, don't do it. like unless it's something that is really obviously toxic or whatever that people don't anticipate how hard it's actually going to be. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't realize, I mean, C.G would have to tell you herself. But I didn't realize how, because she's such a sweet, happy kid, there was not a lot. Like she loves people.

She loves so, you know, she was just like this happy, go lucky kid. And it was definitely challenging for her. And like that, like, I'm not going to cry again. But what it did for her. And you just, and then also feeling responsible for the other person and your child. But I just wish we'd gone about it a little better. I mean, I think ours was better than some. It wasn't, it wasn't super.

How's your relationship with Ernie now? It's fine. I don't really talk to him that much. I mean, he lives in Indiana. Right. And. But she has a good relationship. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. I mean, I got remarried. I mean, all of that. If you talk to her, it was probably really hard for that.

But my narrative now, my story is like, we're all fabulous today. And that's all that matters, you know. It's like we've been talking about the past in this podcast, but we're here to talk about how we've come through. And like after talking to Shane, I'm like, I'm not going to bash Toronto anymore. Because that was basically, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't that bad. I'm going to go rethink that.

Huh. Right. I'm going to talk about the positive. Good, yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, at one point when CG's like, she'll discuss negative things that happened. And I'm like, and I want to say, what about the positive? Is there any positive?

And she might be in a place where she can't remember positive. Yeah. You know, and I realize I'm dropping that weight of she's on her own journey. She's safe. She's adulting. I'm here to help her on her journey and not judge it and not take things personally. And I'm not, I mean, some of the things, some of the pain that she had was caused by myself and her dad. But I'm also not living in that.

It's now her job to navigate her life through that. It's her curriculum. And it had to go that way because it did. Right. Right. Do you have any, because I kind of deal with this, do you have any guilt or did you about her being an only child and not having a sibling to go through things with, go through life with? Did that ever cross your mind? No.

because there's a moment where we sat CG down, Adam and I, where we said, hey, C.G, we have something to tell you. And she goes, what? Like she was like 14, I think, or something. And we're like, we're getting married. She was like, oh, thank God. I thought you were going to tell me you were pregnant. I do not want a sibling.

I want to be an only child for the rest of my life. Well, was it a thought that you would have maybe had one with Adam? And she shot it down or no? No, I think I don't think it was in the cards for us to do that. I don't. I mean, every once in a while, I think Adam has said like, man, I didn't. But then he has a fleety moment of like it would have been nice or, but then he's, he's also a teacher.

So he's like, I'm good. I'm good. You got his fill. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But do you think you obviously have thought that?

I do think about that. Yeah. Yeah. You know. But, you know, it's also really nice. Yeah. Right now. Fist F stuff.

So I got to say like when you think it's just an insurmountable, I don't know, just life. It's just like there are moments where I'm just like, I've just been so like this is so difficult. And I just, I'm so in such a good place and so happy and I've done so much work that if I hadn't gone through all of that, I don't think I would have been here. You wouldn't have been because you have to survive and you have to learn from it. Everything you have to learn from. You do. Well, it sounds like you're in an amazing place in your life. It seems like you just entered, like, a whole new chapter, which is really good. And I'm really glad that you are open about it because so many people would just look at you and think one thing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Melf. That's what I was going to say. You're going to think that milf is just thriving. No, but it's so nice for you to have, like, us to have this conversation, which is, you know, more real and really.

knowing the real Mindy, which is you've so many beautiful things to share. And I think people will really get a lot from it and respect it. And it's so nice to have that other layer and to see it. And obviously, I know, you know, some and most and how amazing you are. And I'm just happy that you're here and willing to be open to share it with everybody. Well, I think it's like the fact that Huberman Lab is the number one and it's literally all about mental health. At some point, I I think I went kicking and screaming into adulthood. I think Ernie and I kind of like, it was like at some point it's like, okay, childish ways are over.

I'm interested in being in this new chapter of like being an adult and also thinking about mortality and health. And it's not just because I went through some mental health issues that became stress, literally. You can eat right. You can exercise. You can sleep right. But if you're highly, highly stressed, it just negates everything.

and everything that I do, whether it's like, okay, I'm going to eat low carb or I'm going to, you know, calorie restrict or I'm going to exercise. Those aren't just for vanity, which is part of it. But it's also because I'm trying to save off disease. All of inflammation and heart issues and all of those things can be in my world, for my body, can be hopefully helped by diet and exercise and being healthy. It's all stress. That's all diseases is stress in the body.

Yeah, right? And I had a lot of inflammation. There was a couple years in there where all of a sudden I was like, like, and I can always tell if my rings are tight. Like my body reacts to things. And very easily, I remember the one time on Nikita and I went out with one of the producers and we had pasta and wine and pizza and everything. And I had a big day the next day. And then when I came back to work, the makeup artist said, they really want to put some contour on your face. What? And I was like, oh shit. It's like how puffy you look. Right. And so as actors, when you're told, and I know another actor from Vampire Diary, I remember she was told she'd put on a few pounds and they came to her and they said, you know, we hired you when you tested, you looked one way. And I don't know if they do that now.

I hope not. I don't think they can. I would hope they can do any of that anymore. All that stuff kind of sticks with you. Are you kidding? Of course it does. Yeah. That's not, no.

There's no way they can. I don't think. they can do that anymore. No. The fact that they did even that, like, well, it's changed even just in a decade. Big time. Massively. Thank God. Well, and I think, you know, I have so many actor friends who are like, they're just not hiring women in their 50s. And I'm like, every audition I get is age appropriate. It's age appropriate and it is what it is. And I, I've got my feet on the ground and I deserve to be here. And there's a place for me, and whether it happens tomorrow or next year or never. happens, I still have to maintain that piece.

Well, also the narrative, right? And everything is narrative and everyone's got something to say, no matter what it is you want to do. They're going to be like, oh, that's so hard or oh, this or oh, that. And it's like, yes, and I can also choose what I'm going to buy into, right? Well, and because, and it's a fine line and a slippery slope for any actor with a little bit of neuroses going, okay, I'm so excited because it's like I'm putting in all this work and I'm ready to go and having some kind of expectation. It's like, oh, I can actually see myself doing that.

And it just fizzles. You have to have the strength to just move on to the next. And instead of being fear of the future, I've trained myself to be excited about not knowing what's coming next. Because how else it did? The other weight isn't healthy. Either way, it's. a fantasy, you may as well win in your own fantasy. Yeah, right? I saw this little TikTok the other day of Michelle Williams talking about how she was very grateful, and I'm paraphrasing, but she was saying she was very grateful she didn't succeed at first. Like she auditioned for years before booking anything.

She said because it really taught her rejection and it taught her how to kind of get a thicker skin and that she was grateful for that. And I was like, what a beautiful frame, right? like anything that happens in those ways, we can say, oh, I'm really grateful for that. This is what it's teaching. Right. Well, and who knew that Billson was going to send me an email.

Mindy, it's Billson. Do you want to do a podcast? I'm like, what? But that was like what the universe brought us, brought me. And instead of, I think the old me would have been like, what's a podcast going to get me? As opposed to how fabulous it was to reconnect

with everybody from the show. That was the biggest gift. And all of the people that we worked with were letting us know that they listen to it and they just drive around town and they listen to the podcast and because it was, that has so much meaning to me, not like the old attitude of because it's because it is what it is. It has nothing to do with what comes next. Exactly. Exactly.

What a gift. It sounds like it was a real gift to you. Oh, absolutely. Super fun. Yeah. Plus Cassidy and a pearl necklace. Oh, you're wearing it! Yeah.

There's a joke about, thank you for it. I just said that really late. C.G. said she's going to steal it. Aw. So we had a joke. Michael Cassidy did an episode with us, and we kept joking about a pearl necklace and what a pearl necklace mean.

He didn't quite get it. Oh, okay. And then he did. And then he finally did. But anyways, and that pearl necklace, the clasp, is a handcuff. Yeah. Oh. So it was very a pretty.

for Mindy, aka Julie Cooper. That's cute. For many reasons. And that was her wrap gift because we wrapped the icee. Well, it was amazing going through that and on that journey with you. Thanks. And I can't thank you enough. Thank you for doing it.

And can't thank you enough for coming here today. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you guys are doing this. Yes. Yeah. Are you learning a lot? Yes. I'm learning to shut my trap.

No. I'm just kidding. No. I'm just kidding. No. Yes. I am learning a lot and it is interesting what, you know, is put out there on a magnified level. Yeah.

But yeah, I love you so much. I love you too. Thank you for being here with you. Thanks, Olivia. It's so nice to catch up with you. Amazing. Bye, bitches. Bye.

Hey, we're back. How was that for you? I love Mindy so much and I love how open she is and willing to talk about. by real stuff, man. Did you know those things about her? I knew a lot, like bits and pieces, you know? But I did learn some things for sure. Do you learn anything about yourself?

Every day, I'll live here. Did you? I did. What'd you learn? I learned that, I don't know if it's about myself, but I learned, you know, what's really cool is that no matter who we talk to on our podcast, they seem to be going through some sort of personal evolution. And what I learned in that was, oh, I get it.

Like we've called in the kind of people that we want to have those conversations with. And they all seem to be there. That's very astute. An astute observation. It's true. Because everyone's down to get into like the mental health of it all. Yeah. Love it.

Fucking love it. How's everyone? How's they on? I'm tired. You know, even when I sleep if I don't have my dear child, well, first of all, I wake up before her every morning. But even when she's not even here, I'm still awake at like 6.30. Really, it's been 5.30 lately, but like 6.30? If I sleep till 7, that is a huge sleep in.

I don't understand it. It's very frustrating. But, like, I mean, I fall asleep early, too. What time is early? Well, it depends Last night I was alone Yeah, that's fun I'll see you're about that

Last night alone I went to bed I think like 10.30 And was up at 6.30 That's not bad early No What'd you watch? What did I watch?

I got stoned I don't try to remember What I watched Yeah, I was I got stoned And I took a bath And I was raging Oh, party

Oh, yes. That was a party for me. You don't get paranoid? What? Yeah. About what? I would get paranoid if I got stoned. Yeah, I wanted to ask, in the last post, you were talking about being afraid of ghosts when you see them in a movie. Yeah. Yeah. Do you watch scary movies ever? My relationships with scary movies is this. When I'm in a relationship, I feel like I'm, I watch more movies because it's something like you do together. And when I'm alone or my kid, like I'm not just like. up watching movies. The only ones I can stay awake for are scary movies. So I wind up watching them.

And they scare the shit out of me. When a movie freaks me out, it's more those kind of movies than, but it's not the paranormal stuff. No, any scary movie. Yeah. Which freaks you out more like things that could be real or paranormal. Things that could be real or is what it is for me. Like what? Give me an example of a movie. Like scream. Like I don't love like, big glass windows that are into the back of the woods. Okay. Or just like openness. That freaks me out.

I watched The Acursed by myself. How was it? Scary. It was scary. Someone told me that movie Smile is really scary. What's that? I don't have a desire to see it, though. It looks creepy.

I actually want to see. scream. I want to see scream. Okay, do you prefer to see a scary movie at home or in a theater? It's scarier at home. Totally. Yeah, I agree. I think the last time I was really freaked out from a scary movie was when my friend David and I were staying in Utah. We rented this big Airbnb. It was Hurricane Utah, which the town was like totally deserted. It was this like middle of the desert. It had all of these homes that were built, these little mini mansions, but no one lived there. They were, like, developing the area. And we, like, accidentally went into the wrong house because the, like, maps didn't even have

the addresses updated correctly, and, like, the instructions on the Airbnb were wrong. And then we saw, like, a dog and a person in there, and we're like, oh, this is not our house. Eventually got to our house. And then we watched Maleficent No What? What?

Angelina Jolene. No. Sleeping Beauty. What the fuck was it? He's like, we watched Sleeping Beauty. It was so scary. We watched Malignant. Hmm.

Oh. What's that? In this, like, big house. But it was scary? It was a scary movie by the guy that did Saw. Okay.

And insidious and The Conjuring. And then we were just in this big house, just the two of us. And David was like, all right, I'm going to bed. And there were like all these big empty rooms, big windows out into this totally deserted neighborhood. I wasn't a big fan of that. He really wanted to watch that movie. No, thank you. That's scary.

Have you guys ever seen The Descent? Who's in that again? It's like an old movie. I just looked it up. It was from 2005. But I remember this movie. Oh, I worked in the movie theater when this came out. I remember this poster.

You did? This movie was fucking scary. Who was in it? Natalie Mendoza, Shawna McDonald, Alex Reed. It has 86% on Rotten Tomatoes, guys. This movie's good. It's scary. It gives me the creeps just thinking about it.

Yeah, it's about the caves, right? Yeah. No, thank you. I watched that show, The Haunting of, what is it? Haunting of Hill House or something? That's a TV show. Yeah. You watch the TV show, the Netflix show?

Yeah. Love it. The haunting of what? Hill House? I love that shit. I know. You watch that stuff before you go to bed, which I don't understand. Yeah.

It's very scary. But yeah, it's the only thing I'll stay awake. You didn't answer the question, though. So you get afraid of ghosts, but what about like these more thriller horror movies with like killers and that's worse for you? They're pretty equal.

I mean, it all scares me. Yeah, for sure. You know, that feeling like... Someone's around the corner in the dark. Were we talking about this, Olivia? Was it an interview? Was it something I was watching? Someone talking about when you're in the shower

and you feel like somebody's gonna... Cycle you? No, but like that feeling of like anxiety that you just bring on yourself like you're alone in the shower and you can just think that and like you're instantly anxious because you feel like somebody's gonna dude one of the scariest moments in my life i was in my 20s and i was on the top floor and lea was sleeping in the basement because her room was like in the basement we kept her in the basement and i got really scared because i heard something and i remember

i was just in like underwear and a wife beater like sleeping perfect setup for a horrible i know and That's why I was like, oh, fuck, I'm dying. Because this is like the classic horror movie outfit. And I grabbed a pair of like scissors from your bathroom drawer, like little eyebrow scissors or something. And I bailed out your window onto the roof and got out of your house. I was scared out of my fucking mind. What did you hear? This was just from hearing some noises you did all this?

I woke up in the middle of the night and I heard something. Was it 33? I think I was supposed to be there alone or something. I don't know, but I lost my mind and I was out on the street in my underwear and a wife beater thinking, oh, here's where I die. It was a very Jennifer Love Hewitt moment. I've never heard this story before. Well, nor do I understand what you heard.

I heard something that scared me enough to go outside. of your window and under the roof and get out. In your underwear. And then jump down into the street. Yeah, and then I went down to the basement and Leah was there with her boyfriend. Which boyfriend? Jake. And I went and slept in their room.

With them? Yes. I was like, move over and I got in bed with them. Where was I? Who knows? I stayed at your house a whole lot without you. Yeah, whenever you go out of town, I stay at your house, Richard. You just don't know. I know where you keep the spare keys.

You do need, your pillows are not very fluffy. What? You need to replace your pillows. Don't insult my pillows. Let me ask you guys something. When you go stay somewhere else, not at home, and they have pillows that are not down, they're synthetic, you know, like they're firm old school pillows. Yep. How do you feel about it?

we've bought and like that's my parent whenever we say my parents' house they have like the oldest worst pillows and we've had to just buy pillows and say all right keep these for next time

I wanted to do that and Jeff told me it was rude at his parents yeah I was like I want to Amazon some pillows because it's going to sleep we've done it multiple times we've just had to go to Target to get pillows because

I don't think it's rude when it's the like spare pillows It's not like it was the pillows that they use every night. You should have just done it without them knowing, like have them and like hide them somewhere they wouldn't or whatever and not tell them and then you wouldn't hurt their feelings. I mean, I don't think they would be offended. I wouldn't be offended. If someone Amazoned pillows to the house, I'd be like, I'm so glad you're comfortable. Yeah, I don't think we told them. I think we just were like, these pillows don't work. We're going to go get some of our own. It wasn't a complaint. I get a new bed. And pillows.

Pillows are just a preference. Some people like firm pillows. Some people like really soft ones. Did you ever try that MyPillow? His pillow was terrible. The My Pillo? Did you order it? Yeah.

This was like 10 years ago or something when it was like, you have to try, you know. You mean the commercial said you have to try. Yeah, I have that. I have the sham wow. What are your guys' pillow preferences? You like the super soft ones, super firm ones? I like it squishy. I have like a whole thing.

Yeah. She has a, can you talk about what you have that you sleep with? Well, I have to sleep with two pillows. I have to sleep with the back one that's like a down, kind of firm, big, bigger pillow. The one on top I like to be a little bit smaller and squishier. And then I squish that in and then I have to sleep with a teddy bear that I've slept with since I was three years old. you should see this. I wish you could go get it. Well, no one can see it. You have to see this thing, Rob. I was like sort of on board with all of that until you got to the teddy bear. It was close to my pillow routine.

You need to see this teddy bear. I cannot sleep without him. I'll freak out. Like if I can't find him in the middle of night, I will get up and look for him. Or like, if we're adjusting to go to sleep and I can't find him, Jeff will be like, are you serious? I'll be like, everybody's got to get up. So have you, like, done some soul surgeon into what this teddy bear represents? Comfort? I love him. Well, he was given to me by my godfather who passed away, but I don't even think that's it. I think it's more just like I'm used to sleeping with him in a certain way. And if I don't, I have to use, like when I sleep at Rachel's, I have to use Breyer's stuffed animals because I don't let him leave the house. I always put a little squishmallow on her guest.

Yeah, she knows. She sets me up with the good guys. Yeah, the platypus is the real one that hits the sweet spot. Yeah, we know. Okay. We just watched God's creatures. You guys want to hear about it? Sure.

So there's this family in Ireland, and the son is, like, kind of estranged, and hasn't been home in 10 years. He comes back. and he's got like this really close relationship with his mom. He's like infallible to her. And he gets accused of sexually assaulting some like girl at a bar. And immediately she's defending him. She gives him like an alibi.

And it's kind of her journey with like coming to terms with her son being kind of a monster. Oof. That's rough. Yeah. I think about that a lot when I see all this stuff on the news and thinking, like, imagine if you were the parent of someone who does something horrible. Yeah. Her immediate reaction is to, like, defend him and give him the benefit of the doubt and to help him. But then she's kind of like slowly realizing that maybe this is what he was capable of.

And then that's brutal. It's interesting because I feel like when people go really bad, right? I feel like so much of it is probably connected to mental illness or trauma, right? And if it is just mental illness for some people, do the parents have that big of an influence on it, or is it just a wired brain? What have you noticed? You've two kids now.

I think it's like very apparent how much nature is at play. Oh, yeah. When you have two kids of just, like, how drastically different they are. And they're raised in the same house. My children are not even a smidge alike. Nope, at all. I've found a little bit of comfort in that, though. I do, too.

Like, you are who you are. Well, that, I mean more of, like, the anxiety of, like, how am I fucking up this kid? Right. And, like, what is going to be the, like, moment? for him when he's older that are either traumatic or memorable in a good or bad way and like trying to make sure that he's shaped the right way but then you have another kid that's totally different it's like oh well this apparently only matters to some degree he's going to be who he is on his own too i mean this isn't there's nothing to do with like what we're talking about shaping kids

shaping kids, like, you know, and how it's affecting them and how they'll, you know, come out. Like, are we influencing that? But the other day, it made me realize, like, you know, when there's something so little that, like, you don't think we'll stay with them or affect them or whatever. Like, there was one time we were at Disneyland and I was wearing jeans and I didn't want to go on the rapids ride because you get really wet, okay? I didn't want my jeans. We had the whole day there. I didn't want wet jeans.

Like, wet jeans are really uncomfortable. So I didn't go on with Breyer. And the other night, there was something she said, she was like, we were talking about, like, I'm like, when does Mommy ever, like, not do anything with you? You know, like, when does why not do stuff with you? She's like, you didn't go on Roaring Rapids on March 24th and 19. Oh, yeah. And she, like, remember, she's like, you didn't do that because you had jeans on.

And I'm like, oh, my God, I should have just fucking went on in my jeans. Like, who cares? but I felt so bad that I didn't go because it really stuck with her and I didn't think it would be a big deal. There was a huge group of people and everybody went and I was like, oh, she won't even remember or care if I'm on or not.

Right. But I also think, though, that, like, that is such a random incident that happens to stick in her memory. I'm sure you've been stubborn plenty of other times around her and that is somehow this, like, pivotal, memorable moment for her. That I didn't go on.

I know. And I don't. But I kind of. kind of liked that she has that. You like that she has that? Yeah. A traumatic moment about... I think kids should have adversity.

I don't think they should... Like, know what it's like to feel disappointment a little bit? I don't think we should give children everything they want, you know? Right. And so I think it's good she has those moments where you did what you needed to do. Regardless if it's that you didn't want to get your jeans wet or whatever, it's like it's going to teach her to have self-boundaries and that it's okay. You know? Right, that's a good point.

When I think about what I did, it sounds really like, I didn't want to get my jeans wet. Are you kidding? It is so miserable to walk around a theme park soaking wet and wet jeans. But also, like, why did I wear jeans? Right? Like, do you think about that too? There's plenty of adults that won't go on those rides. I know, but I feel like, you know, I just want to do the things with her.

And like we're going to, you know, on spring break, there's going to be like a water park. And I hate doing that. stuff like I don't there's a baby sorry Vincent just there's a baby there's a baby Rob brought his baby hi Bob

I Vincent hi he said dadda dad da da he sounds an awful lot like you Rob yeah pass the baby oh

there it is He's so cute and squeaky. All right. Where were we? Fucking up our kids. I've got a dramatic memory that I remember as a kid, too. I remember I was like two or three. And we were at some like county fair thing up on a hill in this like tent thing.

There was like music and stuff going on. and I was in the tent taking a nap and I think my mom thought I was with my dad and my dad thought I was with my mom and they left me on the hill and then there was this like big storm that came through and like everyone cleared the hill. Were you in the Wizard of Oz? And I was just like in this tent during this storm

and I still have like a vivid memory of it and just being like terrified and crying. That's horrible. Oh my God, that's horrible. That's awful. Yeah. But that's what kids do is they won't remember every single thing you did, but they'll remember the one thing you didn't do, you know?

Right. And they also take things wrong. Like, so Elliot got a haircut the other day, like a major, major haircut. And he went to school, and the kids, he came home and he was crying, and he was like, the kids were really mean to me today. They were telling me I looked like a kindergartner. and he was like crying and hurt. Well, it turns out they were telling him

he looked like an actual kindergartner. There's a kid that has the same haircut that looks like Elliot. I'm sure they were partially teasing him. No, but they weren't. They were like you look like so-and-so, a kindergartner. And all he heard is you look like a kindergartner.

Oh, yeah. Instead of this precious little boy that he looks like. You know? Right. It's our minds. Nature versus nurture. I look at my mom and I ask her, how did I turn out so good? Did you guys see that documentary three identical strangers?

No, what is it? So there was like this German doctor that did this study where he separated these three identical twins at birth. And they all ended up at like the same college. And they were all like so similar even though they grew up in different families. families. Oh, wow. I want to watch that. Yeah, that's interesting. What's it called? Three identical strangers. Oh, yeah. It gets dark and weird. It gets dark and weird. Oh. Do I want to see it? I don't know. Do they bone? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, they don't. Okay. See everyone next week. See everyone next week. See you next Tuesday. We come out on Mondays.

I know. Bye, everybody.