Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Reshma Saujani on Girls who Code, Gender Dynamics, and Women Aging

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

Author, activist, and podcaster Reshma Saujani (founder of Girls Who Code, author of Mom's First) joins Rachel and Olivia today to discuss women in technology, male and female dynamics, and how children can engage with the upcoming election. Don’t miss Reshma’s new podcast, My So-Called Midlife, which just launched on October 16th and is available wherever you listen to podcasts!Broad Ideas is sponsored by IQBAR is offering our special podcast listeners twenty percent off all IQBAR products, plus get FREE shipping. To get your twenty percent off, just text IDEAS to sixty-four thousandBroad Ideas is sponsored by Article. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more, visit ARTICLE.COM/BROAD and the discount will be automatically applied at checkoutSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yellow, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, hear stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast on HBO Max or, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to broad ideas. Hello. Who are you talking to?

You? No. Hi. Rob's not here again. Today we have Rushmasa Johnny. I'm so impressed with this human. Like, I don't even, I have no legs to stand on. I know that doesn't really make sense.

Where'd your legs go? Where did they go? No, we were a little out of our league. Mm-hmm. She's out of our league. She's a little out of our leak. Yeah, she's amazing. I think we should just let her talk.

Here's Rushma. Sometimes when we're inside of Rachel's little brain, all these thoughts are swirling round and round inside to join us on this journey as we take a little ride. We'll talk about dogs and kids and things. Chicks and tampon strings We'll talk about boys that a need Because people die What? What? I missed it.

She's looking forward to the weekend. What do I have? I have, we have a, we do this Like big Diwali party. So like the big party is in New York This weekend, which is supposed to be fun. That's exciting. And then I'm taking a bunch of parents

and kids canvassing to Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania is a swing state, as you know. Yes. And, And Monday's a day off of school because it's Indigenous Day. So we're taking a bunch of kids on a bus, on a campaign bus, and knocking on doors. How old are these kids? So my kids four and nine.

Oh, wow. Yeah. I feel like I've always taken my nine-year-old. I've taken them canvassing a couple times. I feel like it's a good way for them to learn and kind of learn how to like be persuasive. I love it. Meet really mean people. Yeah.

Are they mean to kids? Sometimes, yeah. They don't fuck around over there. Yeah. Wow. My husband's from Pennsylvania. He doesn't fuck around. My mom is too.

Yeah. She does fuck around for sure. Is your nine-year-old a girl? Boy, I have two boys. Oh, she has two boys. Same and five. Are you serious? Yes.

Isn't it the best? It's the best. I didn't want them, though. I wanted girls. Same. 100%. Are you done? I have to.

I'm done because there's nothing down there anymore. Right. But I feel like it is, if I'm honest, it's like only regret I have. Not having a daughter. I know. It's a thing, right? Yeah. I know.

I'm with you. I'm done too. One daughter. And we hate you. Yeah. Because there's always that thing is like, you, oh, when you see them and you're like, I want that. but I don't want to go through whatever it would take to get that.

Yeah. Well, I also, yeah, it's so interesting, right? Because you feel like you have, like, with a daughter, like maybe you can, like, shape her into all the things that didn't happen for you. Right. Maybe you can fix a relationship with your mother that you, you know what I mean, want to repair in my case, speaking for myself. I mean, there's just so many things.

But boys, like, I don't know about you, but I've never felt love like that. I've never felt love like that in my life. I was thinking about that holding my son yesterday. I had the best time with him at the grocery store. Like an absurd amount of fun at the grocery store because he was saying new things and he was holding the list and pretending to read. And he was like, I want cookies and watermelon.

And like saying all the things he wanted. And I was like, this love is disturbing. Right? Yes. I mean, I have that too. No. But the thing about boys is it's also a lot of energy. For me, there's so much physical energy.

And they smell. They're dirty. Yeah. And it's chaos. It is true. It's, um, yeah, I just think it's, uh, they just, there are times like my son's like, you're just so beautiful, you know, and I'm like, nobody tells me that. Like, you know, or like, the way they need.

to touch you and just be on you. It's like they need you. Yeah, it's incredible. It's really incredible. But I think they need you. And that's where Rachel, you're going to be. Yeah. Ficked.

You won't. Yeah, they are. At least mine are so physically affectionate. If one of them sees me cuddling the other, oh, forget about it. It's on. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, okay. Now go ahead. Go tell us. Are you still cuddling? Are you still cuddling? Oh, yeah. Oh, good. My daughter, though, is particularly attached.

Like, she could still be inside me if she had the choice. You know, like, open up. I'm coming in. I'm coming in. That's where I want to live. So it's a little different. But I do, you know, I definitely know friends of hers that are not cuddly. It's also, it's just there's a romance to it in a way where they like hold your face and look at you.

All right. Now you're just rubbing it. You know, yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. Wait, I have a question. But you've got a girl. Yeah, please. So did your. careers change when you became moms?

Yes. Tell me. Well, I'm like, I know to hear from you. Yeah. Well, for me, it's just more so it all revolves around her. So where I could just pick up and go and do whatever, that completely changed. That's the most drastic for me because I won't, you know, there's things that I have had to say no to that I never would have before. Yeah.

I think mine intensified, to be honest. I think before having children, I was more focused on, like, healing and growing on a personal level and figuring out what my next steps were. And by the time I had my children, it kind of woke me up to, okay, check, check, check, go. And now is the time for me to evolve in career. So it kind of came before. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, it's not normal. I'm dyslexic, so things happen in reverse.

That's interesting. What about you? Yeah, yeah. I feel like having, well, having my kids made me really focused. Like, they taught me almost how to say no to the shit like I didn't have to do. I think they made me more intentional as like an activist, right? So like I had my first son when I was building Girls Who Code. And so I would take him every.

with me. And then he kind of really taught me what I needed to do and what I didn't need to do. I think he then helped me as like a CEO really, like I grew up in like, you know, when FaceTime was a thing and you were in the office every single day and you had to like be there. And even for my vision, I was like, well, I need to see people to know that they're working. And then when I had my first son as I was building girls for code, I was like, oh wait. No, no, no, I want to be able to do pick up, you know what I mean? From school or get the occasional ice cream and then hop on a call. And so I changed my life and I was like, I'm still crushing it. So I could, everybody can do that. And it was a big like shift. Wow. Girls at Code, tell us how that came to be because that's so

inspiring. Oh, thank you. Girls who Code is like, it's beyond. Yeah. So I am not a coder. So I'm like a really weird person to have started. I majored in PolySci and speech communications. I found myself, like, in my early 30s, like working corporate world, I hated my job. My parents came here as refugees. I've always been, like, an activist. Like, I was, like, born with a bullhorn in my mouth. Right. And I found the courage in, like, my early 30s, I decided to run for Congress.

And I ran against this woman who had been there for, like, 18 years in, like, a Democratic primary. And I was just so freaking naive. Like, I thought, I'll just shake every hand. and meet every voter and, like, live at the subway stop, and people were just really like all my ideas and, like, I will win. And I was the first South Asian woman to ever run for Congress.

And I ran and I got crushed. Like, it wasn't, like, even close. But as part of that, I would go into New York City schools. And that is when, like, coding was starting to take off. So it was, like, 2010. So, like, Instagram was coming up. Facebook was coming up. Like, people were like, technology was starting to take over our life.

But when I went into those computer science classes, it was just like nerdy boys. And there weren't any girls. And so when I lost that race, I was like, all right, I'm not going back to the private sector. I want to make a difference. Even if you all won't elect me, like, what's the one thing I saw in this experience that moved me? And I kept thinking about those classrooms. So I started Girls Who Code, like kind of like a side. hustle. So I had a job, but on the side, I would come home and I'd try to understand, like,

what happened to women in tech? Why aren't there more women going into this field? Like, you know, because it's interesting, like a lot of industries, the very first programmer in the world was a woman. So you used to, do you remember, like, um, canon figures and like all the, like, like, actually the women who, like, designed some of, like, our biggest technologies were the codebreakers that were women. And then, in the 80s, as the Apple computer came out and technology started becoming more lucrative, we pushed women out. Wow.

And it became all, and it's, and it's, and it's, there's so many examples of this. It's like the medical professions in some ways like that, right? Right. Right. Whereas it's so, so now I found ourselves kind of having to go back to trying to figure out how to get to parity. And so, so that's my sort of. because I wanted to make sure that women had an opportunity to get into these fields that paid really well. And then you realize that, like, technology actually plays this really big role in equality.

Like, if you think about the people who created Lyft or Uber, right, the 10 dudes that were sitting around a table building this app, they never put a button on the tool that said, if you're in a car and you're being sexually harassed, press this. the three of us were engineers sitting around designing that tool. We would have been like, yo, you got to put an app for if someone's being harassed because we knew that that would have happened. And there's so many examples, seatbelts and, you know what I mean, car seats and algorithms and now, you know, fake porn, right? All this stuff that if we were actually, if women were sitting, people of color, we're sitting around the table, we'd be like, this has.

happens to me every day, we need to make sure that technology is actually built to protect people against us. And that's really been the big, you know, blessing of girls who code because you have all these girls that are just taking their life experiences and putting it into building technology and into the classroom. Wow. That's so incredible. What have you seen come about, like, over the years? What are like the, you know, because I'm so curious, like, with this and, and you putting that out and everything, you know, have you seen a spike in women actually doing less? So what happened is like in 2010 when we started, like, for example,

maybe 20% of Stanford's, and it was actually just with the dean of Stanford. She was saying in 2010, like about, I think she said, 16% of Stanford's engineering class was women. and today it is 39%. Wow. And we taught almost 650,000 girls to code in the United States, so those are all our students. Wow.

So you real, like in every single engineering computer science school, there's been a sea change. You've also seen a huge change in culture, right? So when I started, you had Barbie dolls that said, I hate math, let's go shopping instead. The only depiction of a technologist or computer scientist, It was like weird science in Revenge of the Nerds. Right.

Right. I remember I used to have these meetings. Like, to me, I've always, as an activist, you always, if you want to change an issue, you have to change culture. And the big problem was that coding wasn't cool. And teen girls in America decide what is cool and what is not cool. And they're like, yeah, this shit is not cool. Like, I don't want to do it. Like, all the dorky guys are the ones in the computer lab.

and not for me. So we had to really think about Girls Who Code did in terms of our brand, our color, our, you know, who we're working with, how to actually make it a cool to be a girl who codes. And so we did, you know, so we did collaborations with Lizzo and Doja Cat, you know, we did books. We did a spoof that was like, you know,

girls can't code because they get their period. And we just like infiltrated, you know, out of all these meetings, you know, with people, your business is so fucking hard. I have all these meetings of people in Hollywood that were just, I'm like, please, just put more characters that are coders, you know what I mean, that make your teen protagonist a cool girl coder. And eventually they listened.

And so now when you go on Netflix and you watch any teen rom-con, it's like a girl who who quotes. Like you go on TikTok and the trending term is women in tech. And so that was like a, you know, a decade-long. endeavor of ours to really kind of make happen because that was that was the thing that was keeping women out not that they couldn't do it yeah I have a question on that well two things um I agree it's all about starting at the culture we talked to we were at a festival and we talked to Linda Perry and I'm not sure if you saw her documentary but it was incredible and she's a

songwriter and musician all these things and she said she was having a really difficult time finding a female engineer. But that was her soapbox and that was what she was fighting for. And she was doing anything she could to get a woman in that position. And she was saying, I don't, it's not my story to tell, but I think she's pretty open about the fact that it was not, there wasn't options for her. Yeah. And she was saying so like her message, her soapbox is getting women in engineering and tech, all of that said. What do you think, because I always want to know what's at the core, right? Yes, it's culture.

Culture is what's feeding us what we think is cool. And then we go into those different fields as a result. But what do you think is at the core of why are we being pushed out? What do you think that that, what do you think the systemic issue is? Do you think it's power? Do you think it's fear? Do you think what do you think is pushing women out of these positions? That's a great question.

I mean, look, I think so it's so interesting to watch what's happened, right? Because you're, you know, she couldn't find an engineer because there weren't really any senior women engineers. And now, and people would always say to me, Rush, we need to build the pipeline. And when we build the pipeline, we'll hire them. So we built the pipeline. So now that it's really, as they're going into the pipeline, what's happening, they're not getting these opportunities. And so the young male engineer at said tech company is not letting these women in the door. And I see it all the time.

It's not because they're grades. It's not because they're not qualified. It's because of power, opportunity, right? You see this happening in the election right now. Like, why is this election boys against girls? And it's because in many ways I feel like we've presented equality as if it's a zero-sum game. You see, that's got to go. Or me.

That's got to go. That's got to go. And I've been like thinking a lot about like, well, how do we fucking get? How did we get here? How did we get here? Right? Whereas it's the fact, because the data is often clear. It's clear.

There's not enough women going into tech. We need more women going into tech because we'll just build better things, right? If you actually have more of this gender going in. So like what's the impediment to people who are gatekeepers towards that letting that happen? And how do we get to a place where we feel like there's enough room for everybody? Right. That's also in every industry. Yep.

Every industry. Even when it comes to fertility, even when it comes to there's that constant comparison. Like if they get this, there's not enough for me. And that is just an archaic way of thinking. and it doesn't work, it doesn't make anyone thrive. And especially we've seen it happen so much with women more than men. Because, you know, boys club and they bring you in. And where do you see women bringing women in and championing?

Yeah. Say the word for me. I mean, you know, championing. Championing. Yeah, it's a hard word to say. If you think about it, then you can't say. Yeah. Yeah.

I do you feel like I feel like this younger generation. is much more generous. For sure. Because they maybe don't see it or experience it the same way that we did. Well, they're growing up in a different time. It's completely, you know, a different generation with what's happening.

And they're not seeing things the same way as we did. We grew up, obviously, with a lot more of that. And what's interesting, so my daughter recently has started an all-girls school, okay? And at first, I was like, okay, you know, I never thought that was something I was, headed towards for her, whatever. But even like in the short time we've been there, it's incredible how they are empowering these young girls, what they're learning, how they're building them up.

And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is our future. And it's so cool to see. And I've never felt more behind that than I ever thought I would, you know? Yeah. I agree. Yeah. And her STEM class and she's showing me stuff there's on the computer. Then I'm just like, no idea how you just did that. Like, what, you know, but it's just really cool. And I think it's right that this generation, it's just a whole different. It's a whole different thing. And I think the thing with girls is like to make them feel. Because then, so then what happens is the older they get, cause of social media, because of definitions of beauty and the way you're supposed to look and the like button on Instagram, we destroy their confidence.

Destroy. Destroy their confidence. There's no social media. Like, I've been training my daughter. daughter. I'm like, whenever the time comes that you get a phone, it's a dumb phone. You are not having apps, like social media or whatever. Like, I'm just, and I know it'll be around her. Of course, they're going to be aware from them. They're going to have friends doing their TikTok dances or whatever. And I have friends of mine who have older girls and they're dealing with it now.

But like, I just wish all parents could come together and just be like, no. We're not doing this. We're not doing it. And the fact that they think, like, oh, my God, I was just, I was reading something about Roblox. And I'm like, and my son does roll. I'm like, what the fuck? It's like a haven for pedophil. Is it? Oh, yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah. You have to be so protected about it. Well, because anyone can just like contact you, right? Yeah, but I'm also like, why are these motherfuckers not afraid of us as parents, right? Like that they are not controlling something that they know is happening on their platform. It's the same thing for how long have we been saying Instagram and Facebook is messing with girls' confidence, it's increasing suicide rates and self-harming, et cetera.

And they don't do anything about it. Did you read the anxious generation? Yes. Yeah. I know. Did it make you anxious? Yes. It did make me anxious and it made me have to give up my free time to hang out with my kid.

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long. I'm actually eyeing some couches for this podcast room because it's time to maybe have a little change and they're so comfortable and so cute. Article believes in delightful design for every home. And thanks to their online-only model, they have some really delightful prices too, which I love. Their curated assortment of mid-century modern, coastal, industrial, Scandy and Boho designs make furniture shopping simple. Articles team of designers are all about finding the perfect balance between in style, quality, and price. They're dedicated to thoughtful craftsmanship that stands the test of time and looks good doing it. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

To claim, visit article.com slash broad, and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com slash broad for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Here's my question, though. I think it also starts with us. You know, because we're aging. We're at an age where, you know, back in the day, we would have been supposedly dead by this age. Like, you're useless, you know. And now aging looks different.

Aging. It feels different. But what imaging are we still putting out there as contributing to the same old narrative? And I do it to myself. I'll look in the mirror and be like, oh, my gray's or oh. And the way we hold aging. for women and men is wildly different. Really different.

So this is my new podcast, my soul called Midlife, which is coming out next week. So this is my new obsession. Obsession. Like, as a feminist, as an activist, I am one of the things that I've gotten older, like I've gotten really obsessed with the cons that women are told that keep us powerless.

Right? So, you know, whether it is the fact, and that's why I started moms first, whether it's the fact that like, you know, women, if you just color-coded your calendar and got a mentor and a sponsor, you could be CEO or you could be at equal when it was, you know, just if you learned AI, if you learned this skill, when it was never about that. It was the fact that we don't have structural support when we become mothers. We don't have paid leave.

We don't have child care. We don't make it possible for women, you know, because remember, 75% of high school veterans are girls. The vast majority of those getting their bachelor's degrees are women. Like we run shit. But the minute we become mothers, everything shifts. And they keep telling us that that's because we're doing something wrong. And I bought that. I swallowed that.

I ate that. And then it wasn't until I had my second child during the pandemic. And the pandemic, I opened my eye. I'm like, whoa, no. I don't need fixing. I had the same epiphany about midlife. I, a couple of years ago, and it happens, I think, in your early mid-40s, right, where you're just like, your things start changing, you know, the perimenopause,

you start aging a little faster. The way you look in the mirror changes, your friendships and your relationships change, your ambition. It's just this shift. And you're made to feel like, oh, my God, like, my best years are behind me. or like, is this it? And I saw that so many of my women, so many of my friends just became depressed,

started having affairs, right? Started blowing up their lives because they were trying to get some semblance of feeling something. Of course. But the men in my life that were the exact same age, having the exact same things happened to them physically, mentally, emotionally, they thought that they were at, like, the top of their game.

It's fascinating. Yeah. And I was like, this can't be. Like, this, there's, we're being lied to or conned. Well, it's just like that thing where they say that, what is it, the subgroup of people that live the longest or unmarried, motherless women. Yeah. That's who lives the happiest and longest. and then for men, it's married men.

I'm like, hold on. So you get better and live longer as a result of me and I'm going to die sooner from being a mom and being a wife. It's a similar thing where it's like, wait, you're getting better. You're peaking and I'm shriveling. But my husband and I talk about this all the time because I'll look at him. I'm like, we haven't even gotten started. Right.

I feel that. I feel like people are feeling like it's midlife. It's almost over. I'm like, I'm just. started. Yeah, good for you, because that's the goal, right? The goal is to expose the con and be like, actually, no, wait, this is the best time of our life. Like, we're wiser, right? 100%. But it also means, though, we have to know. Like, so I read this incredible book that, like, you know, the first plastic surgeries happened in the 1900s. We literally, for over now 120 plus years,

like, part of making women feel like the older they get, the less attractive they look is so you can sell them creams. It's marketing. Marketing. It's all marketing, right? Because for us, you know, men get, men get more attractive the older they get, you know, salt pepper hair, fine wine, George Clooney, right? Love it.

We want the mirror in reverse. Like, the best compliment you can give me is that I look 35. Right. Yeah. Not the same case for my husband. Right? He wants to be told that he looks great with his beer, you know, with his beer gut at 46. Right.

Right. It's just, it's, and so again, but when you start not feeling attractive, appealing, desirable, that then hurts with your confidence, too. And it's funny, I was talking to a friend of mine from Nigeria. It's very distinctly American. She was telling me, like, in Nigeria, the older you get, the more revered you are. Mm-hmm. Not here. Same in India. Right? Right. The more respected you are, the more revered you are, the more attractive you are, the more attractive you are. but not in America. In America. What are your thoughts on that when it comes to sexuality? Because I do feel that as we age, you know, growing up, you look up to women.

For my generation, it was Victoria's Secret models and all these like ridiculously, you know, untangible women. I had all the pictures on my wall. Of course. Kate Moss was on the front of my frontminder. And it was all about being attractive to men. And as you get older and they start to shift, like the guys you know and grew up with are dating 10, 20 years younger than you, right? And as women get older, if you find an older woman attractive, she's then called a cougar. Yep.

Right? But when it comes to sexuality, because I think the reason people are blowing up their marriages and having affairs and doing all of those things is because there's an innate need. to feel attractive sexually to the opposite sex, same sex, whatever sex you like. And it's mostly women. Yeah, it's only women. I mean, men are attractive, and we know this as they age. But what is it in those other countries? Are they still looked at as sex symbols?

Yeah. Well, I want to dig into this because I have questions. And so I'm interviewing, I interviewed a divorce therapist, a sex therapist. Because part of the question, so one of the things that I learned is that it's women that blow up their marriage is not men. And it's often women that have more affairs and not men. What? Because it's women who feel like they are missing that sense of sexuality and excitement. So I think a lot of the myths, now men, you know, may cheat or may leave a marriage, but they don't end it.

Right? So it's four often different reasons. And so one, I think a lot of the myths that we might have about who's doing what might not be what we think. But then the second piece of that is also about the fact that like why are women, if they are cheating, why are they cheating? Are they cheating because they want to feel desirable again and they're not feeling that in their marriage? Are they cheating because they've now feel like their husband's just, just another child. You know, I interviewed a divorce therapist and she said, the number one reason why women divorce is because they feel like their husband has literally become another child. Wow. And it's like, what's the point? But I think that, and women, and I don't know if you read all fours by Miranda

July, but part of it, you have to read it, but part of it, it's like a, you know, a story. And the main character, like, essentially was going on a vacation by herself, rents a hotel room and just kind of rediscovered her own sexual. And I think because of like the midlife myth that essentially the minute we hit menopause, like our sexual drive dies, which is a lie, we no longer actually spend the time on actually examining our own sexuality and our own desires. I mean, I don't, do you? No. I know, I'm like, no.

No. No, I think it's more of how am I. landing externally. Or what am I to do to keep my man from straying? Right. Yeah. I will tell you this.

I went to pick up my kids at baseball yesterday. This was funny. I went to pick up my kids and I was on the baseball field and my husband came up to me and I was wearing shorts. I don't usually wear

very short athletic shorts. I was wearing short athletic shorts, okay? And he comes up to me and he goes, you know what was crazy? I was sitting in the bleachers And he's like, I saw you. And I did a double take. And I was like, who is that?

And he's like, and then I realized it's my wife. And it just felt nice to hear. I'm like, oh, you think I'm attractive. Like, I still get like a young girl in that way when I hear those things. Yes, as you should. And then I'm like, do the other dad's things? No. More importantly.

But it is. But see, I'm with you, right? Like I was walking down the street one day with a co-worker or whatever and like some guy double-daked it. I mean, I'm like, did he do that? Was he looking at me? Yeah. And of course that feels so damn good.

Yeah. I don't think that goes away. No. And here's the thing, like, I think that women should have that swag. Yeah. And it shouldn't go away, though. It should never go away. It shouldn't only be when we're in our 20s and we leave.

That's what I'm saying is like perfect. In my 40s, like, never felt better and more, like, confident and wise and knowing myself and comfortable with whatever I come with. And it's so backwards because in your 20s, you feel like you look your best, right? And it's so backwards because everything you have now in your 40s and just being so aware of that. Just like, we're welcome. But what if it's not true?

What if we think we don't look good right now, but we actually do? And it's like, you know, when you don't feel like, you know, when you don't feel like, like you look good, you don't attract anything. Right. What if you did wake up being like, I'm fucking hot. I bet you you walk outside and change, I mean, you too, right, and change that entire energy, right? Because as far as men dating 20-year-olds, I think a lot of that has shifted to with the algorithms and the dating apps and technology.

Going back to the con. Yeah. What are your thoughts on the hormones that happen at that age? Like why is the suicide rate so high for women once they hit 40 to, what, 55 or something like that it goes up? Yeah. Do you think that it is the perimenopause, many menopause hormones that come into play? Or do you think it's the dissatisfaction with what they're experiencing? Well, I want to, I mean, I'm going to talk to a bunch of menopause experts to really dig into this because I find myself doing that too, right?

Like I'll be in a bad mood or crabby or I'm not sleeping and I immediately blame the pause. And it may not be the pause. It might be another form of stress that's coming in. And so I think that we have to kind of decipher that. But I think we have to do the work to figure out, do we need to take hormones? Do I need to take vitamins? Like the fact that I'm not feeling good is not just like the way it is. Like, I read a statistic somewhere that the number, there are more women retire earlier than men because of paramedopause and because of menopause because they feel like shit and they're like, fuck it.

So I think that there, and more people are, I think, are getting more educated on this and on what, you know, what is available to us. But the second piece of that is I think we've got to do the work about our lives. Yeah. And I think part of the thing is I have a four-year-old, a nine-year-old, two older parents. I just don't have, you know, I don't have the time to go in. Because I think so much of what I'm so caring stuff that happened to me as a kid, the traumas that happened to me, the experiences that I had, the stuff that I haven't been able to spiritually unwind.

Because I don't have the time to just sit in process my feelings. I could argue you on that, though. Tell me. Are you giving yourself the time? Because you have this. No, I am not giving myself the time. I have the time. You do have the time.

But I'm not giving myself the time. Even something like someone was telling me, I schedule my workout every day. And someone was telling me, oh, I just, I wake up and I listen to my body. I'm like, wow. Like you can just listen to your body and then decide if you're going to yoga. Like to me, it's like these kinds of practices that like, I can get that. there, right? Like, I can change the way that I've been living my life, but I think we have to be open to it. If we're just told, like, this is the way it is, it doesn't get any better from this,

or maybe it gets better when you're 70, but you have this long period that's really freaking long, especially if we're living longer, that's just unsatisfying. So just deal with it. No way. It just doesn't give women any incentive to make it the best time of our life. And I think we need to, right? I couldn't agree more. Yeah. I honestly, from my personally feel like it is great I do yeah I feel better than I've ever felt I feel more confident I feel more secure I feel more in touch with my intuition my periods suck you know they're really really really really really heavy and all of that kind of stuff but I do think that all the things and that's why I said I argue on that because I've been working with people for a long time and

my biggest passion is debunking the stories that we carry. And even as much as I don't have time for that is a story, right? So what stories are we telling ourselves? I do have the time. I'm choosing to do the X, Y, and Z with it instead. So really empowering us to know we have the choice on how we're going to spend our days. And I understand there's certain circumstances where people may feel as if they don't have that choice. but there's a different story that they can tell themselves,

like, I will give myself five minutes to breathe. Or I will give myself 20 minutes out of 24 hours to walk. And the fact that, or I will give myself the gift of having someone like you that can help me figure out what are the stories I've been telling myself and how can I untell myself that? Because I think it's about spending more time, like you have to go in to go up. Correct.

And spending more time, I think that the other part of this part of our lives is, I don't about you, but I was always an ambition chaser. What's the next thing I'm doing? What's the next org I'm starting? What's the next, you know, project I'm doing? What's the next issue I'm changing? And I got to this point in my life and I'm like, wait a minute,

I got some stuff I got to deal with. So I got to, what's more important for me to schedule a standing meeting with my monk so I can talk about this or go meditate or go for a walk listening to, you know, broad ideas. Right. Like, it's like. And so I think that it's a, and I think women oftentimes feel like we don't have permission to do that. Right.

Right. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I've experienced like male figures in my life that make me feel like that even more, you know, like you don't have time to do anything else. what you're supposed to be doing as a mom or a what, you know what I mean, and nothing for yourself. And it's just like, but no. Well, that's also not a good example for children. Absolutely.

Oh my friend told me the best story this week. I'm going to share with you. I think my friend Tiffany Jafo, she was saying, so her daughter, Akua, so Tiffany had a girl's trip planned. And her daughter, Akua was like, you know, 15, 16, was like, mom, actually, I need you to be home this weekend because I have something really important. And the thing was important. But Tiffany looked at her and she said,

you know what, honey, I'm going on my girl's trip. Because if I don't go, you are never going to learn that it's okay to put yourself before your kids. That's incredible. So I need to teach you this lesson. And I'm going to go. So powerful. So powerful.

And I hear that and I'm like, I would never go. Yes. If your daughter grabbed you was like, I really need you. Yeah. See? I don't have that. And she said it was also a thing. It was actually a real reason.

Wow. Yeah, but that's... That blows me away, to be honest. That's incredible. It's so incredible. It's almost like it's kind of like we had Kristen Bella on the pod and she talked about, she never says, I have to go to work. She's like, I get to go to work.

I love to go to work. So it's not like, oh, mommy's going to leave. I have to go to work. And I don't want to leave you. I'm so sorry. She's like, when I work, I'm really happy. and sharing the joy of what she does instead of making it like, I have to go do this obligation, but I'd rather be with you.

And I was like, even that is such a shift from what society makes it seem like. Normally it's like, oh, I have to go do this thing, but I'd rather be with you. And sometimes I think it's good for kids to know, no, I'm really stoked to go do this thing, even if you're not there. Is that how you are with your boys? Or how do you? I try. Well, listen, it's certainly how my husband is, right? He's not catching a 6 a.m. flight or taking a red eye home just so you could do, you know, pick up in the morning.

He's not apologizing when he's – that is me. I know. That's me. He's not, you know, apologizing when he's walking out the door. He's got a dinner at night with his friends. You know, I'm always feeling, right, like I'm feeling. Like that I'm making no one happy and clearly. And I'm always putting my health last.

So I'm more conscious of it now. And I will not try to do the 6 a.m. all the time, but I still do them, right? I'm halfway there. I'm halfway there. And it's hard because I also think we're in this period of, like, intensive parenting. Like, I mean, I spent way more time than my parents spent with me. But it still feels like I'm, like, failing to be a good parent. Like then I'm not the PTA president or I'm not, you know what I mean, I don't know exactly what's going on and exactly what they're doing.

I mean, I think, and it's definitely gendered, right? It's definitely that pressure comes much more on us than it does on. Even when you have, I'm sure all three of us have, very engaged, you know what I mean, dads in their lives. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, there's just a difference. There is a difference. I saw something on Instagram.

It was so funny. It was showing through the years, like, school lunches, right? And like a long time, it was like, here's a piece of bread. and here's that, you know, and then you cut to today. And it's like, I cut them out in figures of dinosaurs. And then I encrusted them in sunflower seats. And then you have, but it is intense. You know, it is that.

And I don't know, not to say people haven't always done that, some people. But it does feel that way. Totally. I don't know if people are saying this. So my kids are four and nine, as I said. Everyone's not been like, oh, my God, Rush, but wait until you get to middle school. I'm like, what the fuck's happening in middle school? Like, I thought this is the hardest time.

I got to feed them, change your diapers. But then I'm done with them, they are just self-sufficient, right? Like, I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah. I feel like that's when it gets dangerous. One of my best friends, her daughter started middle school. And it's a whole other thing. But like, listen, middle school sucked for me.

But my parents didn't know that. They weren't helping me about it. You just went to school. I went to school, got bullied harassed, you know, had the wrong shoes, wrong clothes, wrong things. And, like, dealt with it, you know? You dealt with it. See, but that bothers my insights. Because you wanted me to, like, have someone good.

to have whatever you want. Like it makes me want to cry. Yeah, that you went through that. Yeah, like any child at that age, just feeling those feelings. I remember we used to cut the guest symbol out of our jeans and sew them onto new jeans so that we would feel like we had what the other kids had.

And it's a horrible feeling. Did your mom do that for you? No, me and my sister did it. Yeah. But you had the guess. So, yeah, but we outgrew. I mean, my mom couldn't afford to get us more. Got it.

I was like I'm confused. So we would cut it out and sew them onto the other jeans. Right. Yeah. It's, you know what? Oh my God. You guys, I just remembered something so sad.

What? Like my best friend in junior high. She wore like the same jeans every day. She liked them, you know? And like one of the kids drew with like eyeliner or something like made a mark on her pants just so they could see if she wasn't washing them. Oh, my God. Kids are fucked up.

So mean. I mean, so much shit happened. We were never wearing. the right stuff. We were refugees. You know what I mean? My parents were Indian in like a white working class neighborhood. Like it was like our names were like Rushman-Keshma. Nobody could fucking pronounce it. Like it was not good.

Not of it. I don't know. It's funny. I was interviewing somebody who's like incredible woman, Sahaj who wrote this book, Brown Girl Therapy, about how so many children of immigrants actually have blocked out their childhoods. Like they just don't remember because there's so much trauma. That's kind of how I feel a little bit about middle school was rough. But that being

said, maybe I'm a little bit of like rough and tough is good sometimes. Like, I'm fucking tough. Yeah. I was going to ask. I have an enormous amount of resiliency. And sometimes I'm like, I want to like push my kids. I'm like, top it up. Right. I definitely need to. Do you think that that, do you think that that attributed to you being so ambitious? I think so. Like, I think I was always seeking a little bit of my parents' approval, and they were too busy trying to survive to give me their approval. So I think that that was it.

Now, I think the downside of that is I have a really hard time kind of really getting into my emotions. You know, I just lost my dog with my soul dog. And it was, you know, lost her in February, but she was the first kind of, my husband teases. me, but he's like, this is, she taught me how to love. I know this sounds. No, no.

Completely understand. And, and, and, um, but I need, I needed experiences when I got older to kind of tap into that so I could let the walls down. And especially with what I do, it's like, all I feel is everybody else's pain. Uh-huh. And you have to be in touch with your own pain. Like, you can't understand other people suffering until you understand your own. Right.

Right. And so she was like the nutcracker. She was the nutcracker. Oh. And do you feel like you have more access to it now? I absolutely do that. And I think that I had a ton of fertility, I had 10 years of fertility challenges, more miscarriages than I count. Really?

You know, and so that kind of really tapped me into grief in a way that I didn't feel before. So I feel like now I'm very plugged in. but I still do like a side hug when you try to hug me. You know, I can't really go into it. Like I still, you know, I still, you know, I still working on it. But I'm attuned to it. Wow. Well, that is really exciting.

I would love to see what the journey of you doing this podcast at this age, having already done so much and being so successful as an activist, to see the kind of unfurdy. folding of that. Yeah, I am too. And, right, it's like the journey that I'm on and then learning a lot about the, I think the things that we've told ourselves, right? The stories we need to unlearn.

Yeah, I'm really excited. I'm sure you get it, right? As you've been on Broad Ideas journey, it's like, it's such a gift, right? To be able to kind of both get this wisdom and then send it out into the world for others. Yeah, but these are like these are my favorite conversations, you know, and speaking with you on just all of this because it's just so important and it's so cool to meet other people who are kind of like on the same wavelength and even the same age and kind of dealing with all of these things. And you putting this new podcast out into the world and talking about that because what important messaging. And for young girls, women, our age, older, whatever.

And I just think it's such a cool thing. and I'm really looking forward to listening to it. Well, it's out next week, October 16th. It's going to be great. Julia Louis Dreyfus is my first interview. Amazing. I interviewed Justice Katanji Jackson, which was such a soulful conversation.

So there's a lot of great stuff coming up. So thank you so much for having me. Are you kidding? Those are incredible guests you have, too. We were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, well, you both need to come on now, too. Yeah. Oh, what an honor.

It would be an honor. It would be an honor. I think everything you're doing is so incredible. And I also am kind of curious how the canvassing goes this weekend with the children in Pennsylvania. Do you know which way the kids swing? Oh, do they? They're only allowed to swing one way. One way.

You're like, if you're on my bus, there is a one track road. You know what? The world is a really interesting place right now. A lot of these conversations are just are bursting open. Yeah. It's interesting with the kids. I told my son because he was saying some stuff the other day when he came home. Because we let him watch the debates.

He's in on the whole thing. And he's formulated his own opinions. Oh, interesting. Yeah, very interesting. And then he was saying some things that I said, listen, you just have to be mindful that not everybody's family feels the same way as you do. And so you want to be sure to be kind with your words. you want to make sure to leave space to listen and not put your opinion in the mix as if it's fact. Because I did get worried.

He was saying some things that I was like, if he goes to school, you don't know what other people's families' values are. And he was saying some negative things. And so I didn't know how to handle that. Yeah, I think the thing is we have to teach our kids to, like, like, I feel like they don't know how to talk to each other anymore and have disagreements. But what if he's saying things that I think in my home is perfectly acceptable? You can come in my home and you can sit on my couch and I don't care if my son goes, Trump's a bully and he's mean.

That doesn't, that's, I, I feel that and I understand it. But if he does that at school and someone's family. Like Trump and what? Yeah, like as a. kid, I don't want another child to ever feel alienated or I don't want my kid to use words that are acceptable in our home but may not be on the playground. Yeah. Olivia, you're very kind.

I think that the kids are like, no, you can absolutely say that. I think this is the problem right now. Okay, tell me. I need guidance. I'm not in the political field. I mean, listen, I got a lot. I got some family members who's. support Trump. I'm obviously, you know, support Kamala. Like, and we love each other, but we argue and we

debate. And I think that's important. Like, I solicit people who have different opinions in me. Same. And I think, so I don't, I don't think we should tip each, I think we need to be respectful. That's the part that he wasn't being respectful. Right. So I think it's like, how do you teach him to be respectful, but also to have their strong opinions. Yeah. And I think that that's, and have different opinions, or I have unpopular opinions, you know, and that's okay because that's part of what's happened now. It's like we have not taught our kids how to, how do you hold two things at the same time? And how can you also be swayed or your opinion be trained? Well, and I'll ask him that too. I'll be like, are you saying that because that's what you know mommy and daddy feel?

Or is that based on what you've observed? How old is your son? Nine, nine. Yeah. But I want him to be coming up with his own views and values and to hear them, I don't want him to just regurgitate what our thoughts are and parrot it back. I want him to be really taking it in objectively, and I'm curious, what did you think of that? Yeah. You know? It's my son's nine too. And like, you know, he argues with me all the time. Like, he does not understand why I spend so much time fighting for girls. Because he'll say, in my class, the girls are very strong. And they say their opinions. And they do their things. So, okay.

So say what you will. Just make sure it's respectful. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm not like, closet your feelings and don't bring it up. I'm like, just make sure not to use mean words that are where you're doing

the same kind of behavior you don't like in someone else. Yeah, and listen, I think I'm on the board of a college campus and I think so many conversations we have right now about, well, culture or being canceled or all these things.

I'm like, what has happened? I mean, it's so different, right, than when we were in college where we could actually debate and disagree and still be friends. Still have a beer together, right? And that people didn't feel like they couldn't say their opinions in class. And so it's shifted way too far. Yeah. Agreed. Yes.

But that doesn't mean we should be silencing any debate or we should be even censoring ourselves. I think we need to have these really, like, open, hard, honest conversations that are respectful. Yes. Agreed. And you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have a lot of people that feel different than I do, and I'm okay with that. Yeah, and you can still love them. A hundred percent. Some, not all. I'm just kidding.

True. True, true, true, true. Well, this was so wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on and speaking with us. Thank you for having me. This was so wonderful, and I really appreciate your support about the pod. Absolutely. I feel like we could have talked forever.

I mean, I feel like we barely. Yeah, we're just getting started. When you guys are in New York, come. Let's have drinks. Yes, please. Yes, please do. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys.

Appreciate it. Thank you. And congratulations. And thank you for all your hard work you're doing for women. Thank you. Hello. Hello, Rachel. Hello.

Is Jane there? Olivia. Olivia and I are doing Pilates now. I'm doing it three times a week. And Monday in Pilates, like, I did something to my back. So basically, once you hit 40, you just start breaking. Everything. Everything.

Like, I played pickleball and I pulled something in my butt. And then Pilates on Monday, I did something, and I fucked up my back. Like, my whole left side of my back. Like, it hurts so bad. I can't even. Briars, like, can you get, I'm like, no. Oh, can't do anything. Can't do that.

I got like bio freeze, like a roll on. It's like an icy hot thing, but like not, but it's bio freeze. Maybe it's more intense. I don't know. So last night I was like, Briar, can you roll this all over the left side of my back? She went to town, okay? Overboard. She went to town with it.

So I was laying in bed, shivering. I was so cold from the bio freeze. Like freezing. I needed an extra blanket. I was like, like, they're like, ugh. They felt so good, and it helped my back. I accidentally overdosed Elliott on that once because he was having growing pains. Yeah.

So you gave him icy hot. You know what you should try if it still hurts before you leave? Arnica? No, the, what you might call it? Cryotherapy. I don't have time, but great to know. And I will. It helps with the inflammation.

Okay. My body is a wonderland. And today I had Pilates. Maybe I pulled something in my leg. Are you serious? I don't know. Or it's just sore. Anything's possible.

Are you pushing yourself too hard? Probably. Do you get competitive with yourself? No. Definitely not. Not with other people either. No. Pilates isn't a competitive vibe.

No way. But do you get inspired like, oh shit, she's kicking up there. I'm going to kick a little higher. No. Me neither. But also we have an amazing instructor who's like, why is she so dope? She's the coolest ever. She really is. Yeah, like I feel like we should be like actual friends with her.

Yeah, she's the shit. Yeah. Yeah. She's so warm. The warmest. So warm. Love her. Me too.

What's the studio called again? The studio? That she has. I don't know. I don't know. Because I was going to say we could plug her, but we can't because we don't know what it's called. I don't know what it's called. They know where the door is and I know how to go inside.

But I'll ask her. Something dog? Well, I don't know if that's the... Oh, that's not where she has. I don't know. I don't have an answer for you, but I will get one. Okay. Did we talk about how nice you were to the girl in Pilates at us?

Please tell the story. So Rachel's warm, very nice. I'm a very nice person. Very nice person. Nobody's going to ever be like, oh, she was not nice. You know, she's very nice. But she's not necessarily going to like just start chatting up random people in class. Well, I talk to people.

I've had a friend from school be like, you always talk to people. Yeah. But this is very friend. This was different. But it was a different type of friendly. Yeah. So I thought we were taking a class with first time people in the class that she's never met. And all of a sudden, Rachel's like, go Meg.

Look at Meg. Look at her. I'm copying her. She does everything right. And I was like, dude, Rachel is going so fucking hard for this girl. Like what is? You were so confused. I was perplex because it wasn't normal.

It wasn't just like normal. kind, like, here's a person I just met. Right. I'm going to be nice to them. It was like, Meg, Meg, she's her girl. If she can't do it, no. I was. I was her number one cheerleader.

You should have seen me this morning. What were you doing? I was just watching Meg. I was like, well, she does it perfect. Whatever she does, I'm going to try to do. Yeah, and that's how she was acting on day one. Come to find out she's a mom friend from school. So she actually knew her.

But if I didn't, that would have been amazing. My face hurt. I was so confused. I was like turning red. She had Spank's leggings on. Okay. And we need them. Oh, really?

Yes. Meg has, does everything right. I mean, Meg can do no wrong with her barn coat, barn jacket, barn coat. Barn jacket? I told you. But do you say barn jacket or barn coat? I don't know. Because I thought you were saying barn coat.

I probably was. She's got the barn coat. Listen, either way you say it, it's still the same thing. Barn coat, barn jacket. How do you feel about barn coats? I'm obsessed. I have three different versions of it right now to try on and then return what I don't like. Why don't you return it over here?

Yeah, I will be returning to you. Not so much over there, more over here. More over here. Not so much here. Meg, Meg. Love Meg. So that was my girl name. Because you said that.

Let me just tell another story in Pilates. You? In Pilates, like, Meg is her name. And all you said was Meg. Meg. I always wanted to have a girl. I had already told her that was my name. Oh, I thought you, like, didn't follow up with like, and that was my girl name.

All I was a part for, because I was in the room, was you being like, Meg. I always wanted to have a girl. We both thought we were acting a fool with this girl. Oh my God. I'm dying. You literally. No. The name Meg was from the play,

Crimes of the Heart. And I always loved it. It feels like old school. But is it Meg short for something or is it just Meg? I like Just Meg. Just Meg. Yeah. Love that name.

It's like old school romance. Do you have any? Meg's in your life? No. Any children? What? Do I have an extra child they may? No, in your life that you like,

like what the psychic said? No. Okay. Just wondering. No, nobody's named their kid Meg since Meg. Do we know if it's short? She doesn't even, she gets a whole podcast episode. She does.

Fucking, she's the shit. She is. Buying her leggings, buying her barn. What color were the leggings? She was wearing red today. Oh, red. How does that feel? It was so cute.

What kind of red? Like a real, real, like a bright cherry red. Oh, it was good. How do you feel about colored workout pants and light workout pants? We've been talking about this. I know, but I want to hear it. I prefer a dark. I'm not a light workout pants.

person. Me neither. But you have really cute ones. Yeah. I do. I do. But I never feel comfortable in them. Like I don't feel comfortable walking through school to drop off my kids in light leggings. You want to elaborate? It feels like a lot of raw ass. You know? It's just like it's see-through. It's just like there. Seet-through, but like it feels like an X-ray machine. How do you feel about camel toes? It was like a thing, right? Like people were purposely having them.

Yeah, and I've heard people say that they're sexy. Like, oh, yeah, like it shows a little. I'm not a fan. I do not ever want camel toe. And I think lighter ones camel toe a little bit. Interesting. I find different brands camel toe than others. Oh, really?

Mm-hmm. I'm not a fan of a camel toe. No. Don't want it. Not my thing. But like people want that. People want that. Great for them.

I don't. Not my thing. No. Do you remember? We had someone on the podcast that said she got dressed every day to drop her kids off for school. Do you do that? Are you great? You should have seen me this morning.

Do you know how many mornings I'm like, if I had to like actually get out of my car? Oh, I do. Oh, I don't. But if I had to. get pulled over, something happens. You never... I am in full pajamas, but I cover it in either like a puffer or like a sweatshirt. This morning I was in my slippers and my pajamas and just put a sweatshirt on so the top of me

look like I was wearing normal clothing. Yeah, that's how I roll. So what if you had to walk into the school? Well... And sit down and breathe to your child every morning. I would be in my sweatsuits. Okay. Is that what you're in?

Yeah. Do parents get dressed? Well, I think some... Some people go. to work from there. People go to work. So like that's normal. Right. And then I think there's a lot of people in sweats. Yeah, I, you know, Warner Breyer's friends, if I'm ever not wearing a sweatsuit, she's like, what's going on? Yeah. No, like, that's my signature. Yeah. Specifically the great. Totally. I know. No, I wear sweats, but like I'll wear like slipper-esque shoes with socks and.

What's a slipper-esque shoe? Like an ugg? Oh, or your furry burks? Yeah, just any, like, even just like my plastic, like, slides. I wear my furry crocs. Yeah. My cozy crocks. Like anything. And I don't match or. No.

And you go into school. Yeah. Every morning. That's the vibe, man. Man. It's insane. I do commit to Pilates look some days. Okay.

Like I'm in it for the rest of the day. Even my Pilates socks. They're on. It happens. Oh, I do that all. I do that too. Yeah. It is what it is.

I don't know. I used to keep aprons on. Okay. Like in the kitchen, I have an apron. And then it would just stay on. That's weird. It's a little weird. Yeah.

And I would get called out. Like, you know, once you leave the kitchen, it becomes an outfit. And I'm like, interesting. You'd wear this outside of the house? No. Oh. Like it's just in other rooms of the house. Okay.

But are you going back to cook? Presumably. Yeah. Yes. Will you cook a lot? I do. I've never cooked that much. Have you ever worn an apron?

I wear an apron at like Thanksgiving cooking and stuff like that. It's more aesthetic. It's cute. It's a vibe. It's a mood. It's a way of life. Okay? Yeah, I love Thanksgiving.

I know. I think it's like my favorite. Are you doing it here? Yeah. Same. Yours? Yeah. Nice.

I know. I love it. It's my favorite. I was going to send you a meme because it's been going around. It's like if you just lived across the street from me and they do a dance. That should be us. That should be us dancing. I know.

Hmm. Okay. All right. Thanks everybody. So much. So much. See you next time. Bye.

That was a headgum podcast.