Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Sarah Nicole Landry on Showing Up and Saying Yes

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Rachel and Olivia talk to Sarah Nicole Landry about how her inspiring journey, acceptance and living a life of least regret. Watch the video of this episode HERE!Check out Sarah’s show The Papaya Podcast!Like the show? Rate Broad Ideas 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts and SpotifyAdvertise on Broad Ideas via Gumball.fm See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a Headgum podcast. Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yello, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room,

and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hax podcast, on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. I love everything she stands for. She's awesome. She's very fun. I want to set something up because I started recording like two sentences into my, I think,

favorite conversation of 2025, which is she was going to record her audio and said, uh-oh, I'm having some issues. The Sims 4 is taking up all of my hard drive space. And then I hit record right when that happened. So when you hear the conversation start right there, that's the buildup. to it. And I think that goes down for me as an engineer, the coolest line I've ever heard. Oh. I did not know where that was going.

No, but I'm so happy that's where it went. Yes. It was awesome. Oh, awesome. Yeah. So everyone, you're welcome. Oh, my gosh. Sims is like you basically create a little world and you have a sim. And then you can like go and meet other people and make them date you.

Make them date you. A baby. Oh, trust me. Some of them completely rejected. Like, I currently have a husband who is abstinent from me, and so I'm now pursuing other interests. And it's, you can be so chaotic in this game. Like, some people will get their Sims to, like, swim in the pools and then they, like, take the ladders away because, I don't know, like, it's what?

It can be so weird in there. But currently, I went on there to be like, you know, it would be fun, like, to play Sims again. I used to play as a teenager. It's so fun. You, like, build these little worlds and do this whole thing. And then I picked it back up again. And I was like, this is such a nice, like, downtime escape, like, from having four kids and a house to take care of. Now I have two children and another one on the way.

And I'm constantly taking care of another house. I don't know why I thought this was a great escape for me. I've just created another reality that I'm responsible for. That is hilarious. Oh, my God. The worst. Wait, we're already recording. I just started.

Yep. Okay, good, because this is very important. Yeah. I can't believe you've never played Sims. Never. No, it's so fun. Okay, here's my question because you're like exploring other relationships, whatever. Does your husband get jealous?

No. It's not. You literally thinks I'm so ridiculous. I also, there's like mods. Some of my followers were like, okay, just so you know, there's like modifications that you can download. And they're like probably sketchy, right? And you download these like modifications.

So I have modifications that they can like do some like really nasty stuff. And my husband's like, you are a child. Like, you're so excited that you're like seeing animated boobs on a screen. I was like, I just like, it's funny. Like, I didn't get to do this when I was a teenager. Oh my God. But naked too crazy. She's like fully gets her period now.

I have to like buy her tampons and such. Like, there's so much going on for her. She has a whole, she has a very, very high profile life in this world. Do you like dress her every day? Do you pick out outfits? He has outfits. Like, she has a selection of outfits. And she has her like, yeah.

She has her little relationships and they can woohoo in the hot tub or in the bed and in the shower and then they have lots of babies. So there's like R rated Sims. It's like R rated Sims and I'm the one playing it is like the long format. But you don't get paid to do that, right? No, I should be getting paid to do that. Yeah, I should be working for you. No, I. Genuinely just for fun.

It's, you remember those like different games where you could like build roller coasters and stuff? This was like the most domesticated version of that. Got it. Or it was like just building your house. You go to work every day. Genuinely is regular life just in Sims. That sounds awful. No, I was like, that sounds like more things to do.

That's how it's, that's what it's turning into at first. I was like, this is so great. Because I've learned about myself that unless I have something that is actually using both my hands and my brain, I will find other things to occupy with. And it often ends up being like my phone or work. And I needed something that was like separate from that. So like during COVID, I was like Animal Crossing every day. Like I played all of these different games.

And then Sims is like sort of another iteration of that. Just a little bit more adult in the version I'm playing. My husband sits beside me on the sofa just giggling at me. That's fun. That is fun. I feel like you would get jealous though. Jealous? If he was like simming with other girls in the hot tub, is that what it's called?

Simming. Woohooing? Oh, I don't want him woohooing. See? I don't want to woo-hooing. Yeah, I think it, this is where I am a little bit jaded because I don't even like having dreams that my husband's with somebody else. Never.

So I can't imagine. But I'm also just like, I am, I'm not the sim. Like, I'm, she's a different person. I'm just, I'm just wielding her life, if that makes sense. Like, she is not I. Right. But what if. She's a different name?

What if he was into like virtual reality and then it's like sexy time virtual reality? And he's like, I am not the sim. Lippery slope. Slipper slope, right? Slippery slope. Yeah. This is an intervention now. Yeah.

We need to talk to you. Yeah. This is why we're here. Contacted us. Oh my gosh. Yeah, Sims. Yeah, it's a good time. Yeah, it's a good time.

Well, anyway, I'm dying. I'm also very curious now. But you, I just have admired you so much for so long. Just everything, you know, you put out there and stand for and like you're like you said you're running this family you got four kids your husband all of it and i just think you're amazing and i'm just so happy that you're here to talk to us i'm a big fan so it's like that's i didn't even know you knew who i was so that's very cool um oh my god i'm i'm i love that you are exploring the topics that you are here i think

it's like so important i love podcasting i feel like it's such a art forum for everybody involved because it's, again, one of these rare spaces that we genuinely put our phones down and talk to each other and, like, meaningful conversations and level up in life by or learning from each other. I think there's so much there. So, yeah, just happy to be here, guys. Just happy to be here. Well, thanks. The level up, we've been talking a lot about leveling up the past couple days. So it's funny that you just use that term. Oh, interesting. Just in life and people and relationships and whatnot. But anyway. And Sims. and getting to the next level. Leveling up.

Leveling up. It's all related. It's all related. Well, tell us about how it all started for you because your journey's been really pretty revolutionary on social media. And we've gotten to see where you came from and where you are today. But just talk to us a little bit about how that all came to be. Yeah.

So I'm like an OG blogger. I was married to my ex-husband and him and I moved to a city about six hours away from all my core family and supports. And I had just given birth to my second daughter. And I felt so isolated and alone. And blogs were starting at that time. And I was like, oh, my gosh, there's other people who are like being moms and like doing stuff and doing crafts and have like a life outside of this even while you're at home. And I felt so in love with that community. But I felt like I couldn't talk back.

Like where did I fit in there? So I started blogging. It was atrocious. Nothing to brag about. But I loved it. I loved having a space to just call my own and something that was outside of the kids that I could do at nap time or like when they went to bed. It felt like something that was for me. And then obviously over time, things shifted. And, you know, the blogs turned to Instagram and social media that we sort of know it as today. And the lens sort of left being your home and the crafts you were doing, the meals you were making. And it was like, what you look like and what you wear. And I felt like if I want to stay in this community and I want to keep being in these spaces, I have to, and at this point now I've had three kids. So I have, I've got three kids and I'm 25 years old. Oh my goodness. That's good. It's insane. Holy shit. So, young, young little spring chicken with her three babies. And I was like, you know what? Like now I'm three times postpartum. I felt so terrible about my body. I always had like since I was about 12 years old. I developed early. I was always a little bit bigger than all my friends. And it was like

so obvious and so pointed out. Growing up in the 2000s is difficult. Growing up in the late 90s when you're like in grade seven and eight and people talk about your body nonstop. I have like truly moments ingrained in my brain on how people would bring up, you know, the size of my chest or the size of my pants and all of these things. And going into high school, I just like learn to hide my body and learn to just like, I don't know, try not to think about it as much because I knew, I mean, it was happening anyways. We were going to gym class and you were getting weighed in front of all of your peers. I would join a gym and they would make me stand in front of everybody else working out while they measured all the fat on my body. It was like, this was the most, this must be the most

important thing about you. Wait, that happened in high school? Oh gosh, yeah. Like this is, this is the 2000s. Like that was nuts. Yeah. So I remember stepping on like, These are how you know that it's almost like trauma, like small-t traumas, because I remember so much about these moments. I remembered all of my friends going and stepping on the scale in gym class and me going on it last and knowing that I was the heaviest of the group. So I grew up like that. I grew up going to the mall with my friends and never being able to buy clothes with them. There was not, you know, teen sections for girls that were above a size 12. And so I was constantly buying accessories, scarves, things like that. And so, so,

And flash forward, I've now had three kids. I am like a size 1820 and I'm like, okay, the answer to all of this is I need to lose weight. Like I need to commit to this and I need to lose weight. Then I will love myself. Then things will open up for me. And I had at this point been blogging for probably like eight years or something. So I was like really craving just making it in this world. And so I went on this weight loss journey and people loved me for it. and I lost 100 pounds. And the secret of it was that I felt worse about myself than I ever had before because now I'm on this track of people love you because you look a certain way. And I couldn't forget the way I was treated all of those years before. I couldn't forget what it was like to not be able to shop with my friends. It was like the most isolating experience in the world and also did not solve any of the body image issues I had. I just felt, I don't know, like almost more ashamed. And I just started like photoshopping more and like doing everything I could to like feel like I was now fitting into this like fitness and weight loss world. And then I went through a divorce. So after

11 years of marriage and a 13 year relationship that I'd been in since I was 17, I walked away and I moved in with my parents at 30 years old with my three kids and decided to just press the reset button. And those couple weeks at first, I couldn't even function, let alone eat properly, and I lost more weight. And I remember my biggest lightbulb moment was running into somebody and they were like, oh my gosh, like congratulations. Like you look amazing. And all I could think about was I haven't had a morsel of food for two weeks. I'm going through divorce and I'm shaking constantly and nobody knows what I'm going through. And all you see and all you're celebrating is what my body looks like. So now I'm really like, I need to get better.

There were some other like health issues that were starting to pop up, which is always so interesting when people like throw the health card at me now. I'm always like, interesting. Never were worried about me when I was a size zero. But yes, sure. Let's say that how unhealthy I am now. So I ended up going through just social media and starting cleaning it up. I had to completely do a 180 and let people know where I was at and that I was sort of tiptoeing into the door of like what self-acceptance would look like. And what does that look and feel like? And can I still have hair extensions and dye my hair and wear makeup and also try and accept my body. I had stretch marks since I was 19, 20 years old when I got pregnant with my first daughter.

I'd never seen them on anybody. So in this journey of me like tiptoeing into what does this acceptance look like, I posted a photo that somewhat showed like maybe two inches of my stretch marks. And I was wearing a set of underwear that I tagged. And the brand owner DM'd me and was like, would you come and model on this shoot? And I was like, no. Because I'm still so, like, I mean, even if I'm posting and I'm like not editing myself and curating myself of my own. I still, like, knew my angles. Like, we all do. Like, I knew how to look as good as possible even while

showing all these things. And so when she asked me to be on that set and she was like, we're not doing the shoot without you. She's one of my best friends now, by the way. Aw. I went to that, I went to that shoot. And even the professional models had stretch marks down their thighs and had cellulate on the backs of them. And I was like, what? Like, this is so wild. So I started the day, like, so hyper-fixated on, and, like, little weird things, like, I had a belly button ring that they asked me to take out. And that was weirdly a security blanket because I felt like my belly button was so weird after kids. And I had to take it out. And I assumed that they would put me in high-rise underwear and they put me in low-rise underwear. So it's just like the internal

panics of like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Everything that I've been trying to hide from the world for so long is now being exposed. But they posted the photo, not me. So they post this photo. And big life aha moment was the thousands and thousands of comments of people, not even talking to me, just talking to the brand saying, like, I've never seen another person with a belly like mine or a body like mine. I didn't know they existed. And I'm on the other side of that screen going, I didn't know either. I didn't know. So here. Yeah. So I spent. so long hiding my body and feeling that. And that moment was like, there's this quote that I love and I bring this up a lot, but it's once a secret is told, it loses its power. And it was like

that. It was like I was wearing this cloak of shame about how my body looked after kids, about all of the, like the fact that I fluctuate in size a lot. My gene size changes good and for good reasons and for bad reasons. I am an ebbing and flowing human and I have like very prominent stretch marks and cellulite. I have a lot of cellulate as well. And so once I realized what that felt like to feel so seen and not so alone, it sort of opened up this door of like, I think I need to explore this more. I think on the quest to accepting myself, maybe it's in being really open about what I'm struggling with and like sort of doing that and getting into the practice of it. And so that's sort of how it all began and then I got married again and I had another baby and I thought that I had every tool in

my toolbox to go through postpartum again and got knocked on my ass. But I committed to showing up, to sharing it, to be real about it and ultimately say yes to everything in life because I didn't want how I felt about my body or what I was going through to limit my ability to exist and to live. And so now I've gone through all of that. I'm in, you know, I'm four years past having a baby. I don't think I really even felt a familiar version of myself until about three years after having a baby. But I'm so proud of the journey because when I look back on it, I'm like, at least I said yes. I got in the pool with my kids. I did things that I'm so proud of. I was not the version that was like some bounce back of something I used to be. I got to actually meet the version of myself that I am, which allows me and opens the door for me. to keep meeting future versions of me. And I feel, even though it knocked me on my ass, it reminded me that like what women go through when they have body change is double-layered. It's not just the way we feel about ourselves. It's the way that people treat us. It's the fears that we have that are actually valid and our collective fight against that, right? I don't want to feel,

I don't want to see people experience the same things that I did as a teenager. And I don't want people to experience the same things that I felt postpartum. And so I've just tried my best to show up and talk about the uncomfortable things like divorce and body image and mental health. I mean, I've gone through it the last couple of years. And I don't want to be a perfect version. I want to just live my life and at the risk of, I don't want to have the risk of regret. So instead of living a life of the path of least resistance, I've chosen to live a life of least regret because, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think if anybody's ever gone through body image stuff, and especially if you have kids, you know, as much as I know for anybody listening, you don't get that back. And so that has always been my motivator is that I can't. I always cry. You don't get redos in life, but you get the keep goings. And so now I always say that my story now is like a bit of an apology letter to myself, an apology letter to my kids. to just try and keep showing up and showing them that no matter what change they go through

and how their body ebbs and flows in this life, keep doing it. Do it scared. Do it imperfect. Just don't stop and don't sideline yourself from like the one chance we have at this life because that the path of least regret is so much better than the path of least resistance. So yeah. So sorry. That was like very long. No, we're just crying. No, yeah, you brought us. Oh my God. Oh, Kevin brought us. And he brought it as a Kleenex. Kevin. Kevin.

Can you send them to Canada? Honestly, like, I just have to tell you how beautiful it is to hear everything and witness everything. And especially in this fucking day and age when everything is filtered or it's all about image, a lot of the most famous people out there, famous women are like, I'm going to tweak everything and make me look completely perfect. erase the cellulite, erase everything. And like, what message is it sending to our young girls? I'm raising a daughter. And just hearing all this is making me so emotional because the world we live in is so fucked. Yeah. You know? It's hard watching them go through it. I think that's like the secondary grief is like when you watch them go through things too, right? Like, but then there's, I think this next generation is special. I really think that they have a lot of.

lot going for them that we maybe never had. I've got daughters who are about to be 17 and 19. I have a son who is almost 15 and then I have a four-year-old little girl. And I've watched them, I've watched them do what I never could. I watch them keep doing the things. And I also watch them sometimes wear T-shirt swimming in the pool. And I'm like, you know what? You got in the pool. Who cares if you didn't do it in a bikini? You know, like I've watched them. I remember one day I looked at my daughter and I was like, oh my God, do you have stretch marks on your outer thigh? And she's like, yeah. She's like, I guess I do. And I was like, oh my gosh, they're so cute. And I was like, we had this little moment. And part of me was like, was I allowed to point that out. But just like,

even her response and the fact that like I genuinely was excited, they just looked so beautiful. And it was like, wow, like I have such a change perspective. And she has never even had a, maybe she has, but maybe she hasn't. But just we just sort of got to share in that moment of like, this is actually a really cool, positive thing. Isn't it actually magical that our skin has the ability to stretch without breaking. Aren't we genuinely made of lightning? That is so freaking cool. And so I really do watch this next generation. And I know there's a lot of bad out there. And I know we're sort of like in this pendulum swing right now that feels really dark and scary. But I don't know. There's something about these kids. There's something about them. They have a light

that I think is going to change the world. That's how I feel. I think we're like the guinea pigs. And I think they're going to be the ones that really that really take it. Yeah. But I think it, takes people, I think your generation, our generation has been more honest. And I don't think everything is behind closed doors anymore. And so they're seeing the effects of body shaming. They're seeing the effects of mental illness. They're seeing these things firsthand and seeing people come through it and be honest about it. And so when they do recognize those feelings in themselves, they have something to look at now. which, I mean, in my mom's generation, like, they didn't have that, you know.

And I think one of the things I really want to ask you about and hear your process on, I don't believe things can change externally without an internal shift. I don't think it's possible. And I know myself, I've struggled with body image issues, binge eating, all that. that fun disorderly conduct and witnessed it and dang near every woman I know. For me, I didn't start to, I couldn't work out my body or eat a certain way into love. Right? It had to be an internal choice and dedication to fall in love in a different way.

So for you to have the courage to put yourself out there. on an external level, what was that internal shift that happened? And what'd you do? Like, what'd you do to work on it? I think I'm the same as you. Like, I have genuinely always had insecurities. I genuinely, people are always like, you're so confident. And I'm like, no, I've just made decisions to do things scared. I've just made decisions that I don't want to let things hold me back. But in terms of loving myself, I felt a bit of a fraud and a failure. Because I was like, here I am, showing up online, doing all these things. But like, I actually don't love myself. I don't have the, I don't look in the mirror and I'm like, dang, girl.

Like, I thought that would come from me and it never did. So there's part of this that's so nuanced that everyone kind of feels like they're failing because they look at themselves and they're like, I'm doing all the self-love stuff, but like I actually am not fully feeling it all the time. Welcome to the world as a woman. You are constantly being told you're not enough or you're too much. So you can't win. If you fixed it all on your body, they'd shame me for doing that. If you let it all be the way it was, they'd shame me for that too. But the shift for me happened in the way I looked at every other relationship in my life and the, in the aha moment that my husband, my kids, the love I have for them is like so deep and guttural and constant.

Do I look at them every day and have these like overwhelming emotions of like love and all of that? Like no, that's an ebb and flow. Like you have those butterflies in the belly moments that happen. What love actually is. is an action. You show up. You do things for them. It is not always pretty. It is sometimes really gross. It is like, I saw this like really funny TikTok the other day that someone was like, I remember when I used to get butterflies when he'd send me a text message and now I'm scrubbing his poop off the toilet. Not like real, real, but that is also real love. And so if that's what we know to be true about every relationship we have as a parent, as a sibling, as a daughter,

as a partner, as a friend, you know that love is not just looking at them and feeling love. You know that love is like showing up and doing things for that person. So why are we so disconnected from that for ourselves? And I think that that was my big moment of like grace and forgiveness that I wasn't failing at loving myself. I was equating love with emotion instead of love as an action. So I was loving myself by getting up every day. I was loving myself every moment that's, I chose joy. I was loving myself when, you know, I went for the first run and my legs were absolute jello.

I was, I had love for myself when I chose to do things that felt right for me, even knowing that people were going to hate me for it online. Usually it's being in a string bikini. But, you know, like all of these things I knew, it mattered for me. And so be damned the rest of it, I guess. But shifting away from that constant chase of a feeling and instead focusing, on, let's be real, the one love that we get for the rest of time. We have this narrative that we're some sort of piece of a puzzle. We're like a piece of a relationship. We're a piece of

love, but we're never whole. We're always a little bit broken. We're always looking for another half. We're always looking for someone to fill that void. I very much feel like we have an obligation to pursue ourselves and to woo ourselves and to date ourselves and to know ourselves and to pay attention so that we show other people how to love us too. How can we possibly, you know, give all of this. I think women especially have a lot of like servitude in them, right? Like we just constantly are doing, doing, doing, doing for others that we love. And we forget to do that for us. So that's why I like mentioned that part. But I genuinely think that was the mindset shift for me is like, is this like two things. I love my kids and I don't have all of those

emotional butterfly feelings for them every moment of the day. But I show up for them. I'm doing everything I can to give them a great life and to be there for them and to be that person. And would I want for them different than what I'm doing for myself? And I've had to teach my older daughters about this when they're like going through different things and like struggling to like stand up for themselves or advocate and or you know seek secondary support. Like when you think about your little sister, what would you think that she should choose? And it's funny how they always will answer in a much more, I would want, I would want X, Y, Z for them, but they can't do it for themselves. And I feel like we have such a block that we would do so much for other people and we don't always give that back to ourselves. So, but for me,

it really was detaching the emotional thing. There are going to be moments that you look in the mirror and you feel fire and you have so much of like that natural confidence that comes with that feeling. But that feeling is not love. That is like just a blip. in the love journey as it is in every other relationship. So you're not failing at loving yourself. You're working on showing up an action in loving yourself. And that's where the internal change will come from because right now we're seeing people shrinking their bodies like through many different means. And there's nothing wrong with that. But it is a collective. I think we can all see it. But so many of them are still going to have the exact same conclusion I did, which is going all the way

down to this dream goal of a weight and a size, only to still be left with all of the same feelings and all of the same insecurities because an external thing did not fix the internal stuff, right? And I think that that's where I, but if I'm being honest, that's what's marketed. Look at before and after photos, which I very much participated in for a long time. They're always kind of a sad starter, and then they're like this really happy after. glow up. Yeah. What happens after the after photo is basically what I've been sort of unpacking for the last like seven, eight years of my life has just been like, there's a lot that happens after those after photos. Big time. Yeah. I mean, it's just so, it's so unbelievable, you know.

And I, and just hearing you like how you're raising, you have three girls, one boy. I want to know, because, you know, a lot of this is female related, all this, not to say men don't go through the body image stuff, but how does your son kind of, like, show up in all this? And, like, you know, is there any conversations with him or have you seen anything raising a male, you know, with all of this? I try and just still involve him in the same conversations. I mean, I think my kids are, it's kind of funny, because they probably wouldn't come to me as much. They're like, oh, she's going to go off on stuff, right? I'm about to pop up. Yeah. But they do follow me. They still watch my story. So, like, I also follow men who talk about body image. And I share those.

When I see them, I think they're important. But I just have, I've just removed focus on giving compliments around, like, how they look as, like, a performance factor, right? I'm just much more encouraging to them as people. Are you kind? Are you, you know, generous? All of these different things. And they're not going to be perfect.

but I am constantly just encouraging them as people and to be people who ask questions, people who welcome different opinions, people who will be curious in this life. But I don't want my son to be left out of that conversation either because even if he doesn't struggle in the same way, he still exists in the world and the society that exists for women, right? So I want him, even though I know he probably struggles as well, I want him to still be a part of it and hopefully one day be a part of the change because I'll tell you right now, my husband, that man is not, like, it's actually, I was annoyed at first because he never makes a comment about my body. And I'm like, so am I just, you're just never going to say anything. And then I realized a couple years into the

relationship, how much that meant, especially after I had a baby, because I didn't feel like I had somehow lost his affection or his love or his compliments or anything. Like he, he will sometimes, and I don't know if he does this intentionally or not, but he'll compliment me when I'm like, genuinely just in sweats and no makeup and like my hair is just and he'll be like god you look gorgeous and I'll be like you know what I just spent an hour and a half on like a whole look yesterday and you said nothing and now you say it he's just like that's just the truth I just think you're beautiful so it's interesting even the role a partner can play in helping somebody love themselves and the mutual benefit of both of you and the fact that it opens up intimacy and love and sex in different

ways when she feels loved, regardless of the ebb and flow of her body, the same way that we have shown up for men. I mean, men are celebrated for their dad bods and women are ostracized for them, right? Or criticize, I get messages from women all the time that they're like, my husband's putting so much pressure on me to, like, lose the baby weight. I'm exhausted. I'm all day and all night. Like, this is constant. I don't know what to do. And it's like, are they even thinking about the secondary factor of, are they just going to criticize her without being like, let me take the baby for a couple hours and you do something for you. Right. Like, why don't you go and take some time? Like, I don't know that they're putting the full thing together. So I do think that it's important to

involve all parties in conversations and evaluating the way that we grow up, the society we're in, the way that we language things, I have caught them making body image comments about people before. And I'm like, no, no, no, trust me, you don't want to put that out there because you don't want to receive that back. Like, don't, don't comment on somebody losing weight. Don't comment on somebody gaining weight. Like, we don't do that. But I had to work really hard to reverse that because I was actively losing weight in front of them. And one day, my daughter, she was maybe nine. And she was like, people only love you because you lost weight. She's the middle child. So she's always a little sassy. And she's like, people only love you because you lost weight. And I was like, whoa. That's

actually what she believes. I might actually believe that a little bit too. But big, big, big wake up call when You've got little girls listening and watching and you're like, I've got to do, I've got to change something and I've got to do it now. Right. Well, that was like another question because they are watching everything on social media and following you as well. And, you know, teenage years can be very challenging and whatnot. Was there ever any like embarrassment on their part?

You know what I mean? Like as a teen, you know what I'm saying? Because like teenage were witnessing a lot of that now. We've all been teenagers, so we know. Yeah. Yeah, I know. No, no, they call me cringe all the time and it's a, to be honest, badge of honor. No, you know, I don't know how I got so lucky because I'm sure there are things that they're like,

oh my God, mom, but I love that they've respected me and my decisions and the ultimate path of me trying to change the way that women feel about themselves. I think that they understand on the grander scale that all I'm looking to do is activate other people to live the one life that they have. And if that, I honestly have never heard negative things from them except for they sometimes say that I do a voice. And I was like, what is the voice? And they're like, you have an Instagram voice. I was like, I don't. This is how I talk. No, they, they, they, they will, like, you can't, you can never get a big head with teenagers around. I'll tell you that much. Yeah. But they're so deeply supportive and, and their friends are so awesome.

I mean, my son hasn't had social media for that long. My girls, I mean, I think I let them have it at like 13 or 14. They don't really post, but they are obviously there and watching and consuming. And so we just, yeah, I honestly like, I'm really, really, really fortunate that they have been so supportive that even if there are moments that they're like, oh my gosh, that's like embarrassing, that they don't ever make that that's my responsibility to change. I just, but I will never actively do anything to embarrass them and I let them have full choice on like what they're in or not and things like that. But, uh, yeah, that's, I, I genuinely think I got pretty dang lucky. And also maybe it's because it's been, like, if I've been blogging since my second daughter was four months old. So it's their life. We're going back almost 17 years. They don't

really know it all that different. And I also, it's very sweet. They get to like watch when people like come up to us in real life and hear the firsthand stories of there was a woman on a plane once and she goes, you're the only reason I packed a swimsuit. This is the first vacation I've had since having kids. And like, I actually packed a swimsuit. And my son was sitting right next to me hearing that. So I was like, I think they also just get it. Right? Yeah. Part of them that gets it. That even if it's cringe, they're like, the bigger picture is more important. That's my hope at least. That's amazing. I was leaving this morning and my nine-year-old boy was in the bathroom with me. And he looks at me, He goes, why do you wear a lipstick? And I said, I don't know, I like it. And he goes, it's

a hundred percent unnecessary. And I was like, you know what? But it's a choice. I said, you're right. It is completely unnecessary. I said, but it's fun for me and I enjoy it. And he goes, okay, well, then why don't you wear it anywhere else but your lips? Oh, such a good question, though. He's probably so confused. Yeah, you were like, if you're going to decorate your face like that, like, go for it. You know? Put this on your eyes. Yeah.

I thought it was so funny. But I want to circle back to one thing that you said that I think is the key and the most important thing when it comes to self-love. I think by and large, the industry has had it wrong, where it's the self-love or self-help or self-care, all of these things that are meant to feel. feel good. And love is messy. And if everybody were to like close their eyes and think about the people that they love the most in the world, right? And you, you think about them. You think about their body, the way they smell, the way they feel, the sound of their laugh, all of that. You wouldn't ever be like, but if only grandma's thighs had a gap in the middle, right? Never ever fucking ever would. you do that to the people you love? You would be like, grandma's thighs are perfect, damn it,

right? And that's the kind of internal relationship, at least I personally strive for, is to sit with the parts that are messy and feel unlovable and say, it's okay. It's okay. Love, it doesn't have to feel good. Most of my loving relationships, the harder I love someone, the more pain it's caused. It's the risk we take. That's right. So we need to be able and available to go through that pain with ourselves and say, and I still love you, and you don't have to have a thigh gap for that.

Right? But the way people view themselves and make it mean that they're lovable or not and their value and their worth. and the way they treat other people are two totally different things and it's been it's missed the mark it has and it's it's distracted us away from what's the most important and I think that that is by design very different topic but let's be real women are existing with like a constant hum in their brains and a constant distraction of like what is your body look like and how everybody else perceives it but I think you hit the nail on the head and I got a little emotional there because I thought about my own grandmother. And my grandmother who was like insecure about her body, but she had like,

I was having a day where I was like sort of insecure about the fact that like, you know, your arms like have the jiggle, the batwing that they'll call it. And go. And my grandmother had the softest arms. Yes. I would give anything. Anything to feel those arms. So how dare I? Look at my own and treat them with anything but respect for what they are. and what they mean to other people, because you're right, if you close your eyes and you think about the top five reasons, you love somebody, does their body even land on the list? No. Like, they can have the best body in the world. They might be an asshole. Like, you don't have to, that's not love. Nope. That's just descriptors of a person. And guess what? If you attach your love to a descriptor,

that descriptor is changing. None of us are staying the same. None of us are going to look the same way in a year from now, we are all marching towards the same conclusion. And it matters what we do in the middle. It matters what we do in the middle. And it matters how we, and if we're so distracted by trying to be this version that we feel is the most lovable,

we are missing the mark. Because when I think of my grandma, all I think is love love. I don't think about her body in any other way of like, that was the softest, most beautiful comfort I've ever felt. Same. And I wish she knew that. because she probably hated her body. She probably had the same thing happening in her head where she thought about how she wore clothes and if they covered up her arms.

And we never got to really tell her. Like, I don't know that I ever would have thought to. But, like, that's the deep reminder that we all have to hold to ourselves. It's like regardless of what you look like and regardless of what, like, personal goals you might have, you might want to, like, have ripped abs and, like, big muscles. That is so cool. but don't lose the point. Like those are all just external descriptors and things,

but don't lose, don't lose the plot and don't lose the opportunity to love people and to love yourself because like we really only get one shot at this. And I say that repeatedly because I think we're really freaked out about what's happening day by day. And we forget that like life is happening. And it's our responsibility to make, the decision to step into it or not. And I feel that because I really sideline myself from a lot of

things because of the way I felt about my body. Like I said, and when I'm the most scared, what I will often do for myself is, okay, you know what? I don't feel good about myself. I don't know why I'm here. I don't know what is given me this opportunity or this permission or whatever it is that I'm stepping out to do. But my God, when I'm 80, this is going to be a stellar story, even if I fall, even if it sucks, even if people laugh, this is a good, dang story. And somehow that breaks me out of like everything that could happen in the right now and it being in that constant seeking of perfection. Like, yes, it would be amazing to walk out in a bikini and have people just cheer for you. Probably not reality. When you're 80 and you get to pull out those photos and be like,

look what I did. This was me. This was my life. This is like all the cool stuff I tried and did. dang like I want to show up for her even if right now I don't feel like I can show up for myself there's part of me that wants to both I saw I saw this poem the other day is like showing up for yourself is like showing up for the eight year old version of yourself and the 80 year old version of yourself I love that you're both doing it with a little kid yeah and you who like wanted you to grow up and be so cool and you're doing it for the 80 year old version of you that like wants the stories to tell so if it can break you out of like the constant obsession of like what's happening right now.

Yes. I love that. So cool. One of the things we do, too, that I think is a little fun in our friendship. I don't think we've ever talked about this. But because we're so fiercely protective of those we love, if I say something negative to myself or she says something negative to herself, we'll always be like, don't you talk to my friend like that?

And so we hold each other accountable to that as well. And we're as equally protective of how one another talks to ourselves as we are, if anyone else would say it. And it's kind of a cool, sweet thing to be like, oh, I'm not allowed to be mean to myself in front of her. She's going to, you know what I mean? Like, she's going to. Think about how your kids respond to that. And it's kids witnessing that, teaching them like, hey, you don't get to talk to my kid that way. You don't get to believe her. It is, we grew up with, and it's not our mother's faults. Like, I want to be very, very. Almost everybody's body image story starts with like my mother. My mom. Our mothers were in a worse boat than we were. They had the same pressures and then some, right? They were, and the generation before them, we can't blame the mothers. Their actions were probably a result of the pressures that they were under and the fears that they had for us growing up in those things too.

I know my own mom is like, is any of this my fault? And I was like, you love it. No, you know, matter what. Like you, yeah, all of you know my mom. But my mom struggled with her body image. And I watched her, I watched her struggle her whole life too, right? And, and, and not want that for us. And, but no, like, I, I don't think any of it is their fault. But I do think that the way we talk about ourselves, like, we're the first voice that the kids hear and the first narrator of their world. So if that's true and as they grow up, like, they will adapt and learn. from the way that we act and learn, right? This is why we can't bubble wrap them because you can send them to school and a kid's still going to call them names because they've heard those names at home, right? You can't bubble wrap them. They're still going to have outside influences. But if home can be the safe space, if home can be the place that we don't talk badly about ourselves, if home can be the place that we don't look in them as parents, we don't look in

the mirror and rip ourselves apart and be like, do I look bad in this? And as my cellulite showing, is this like all of these different descriptors that your kids will eventually come to understand, even setting it up of like, we don't talk, you don't talk to my friend that way is such a beautiful setup for kids to hear and become that new narrative, even with the outside world influence. Because I think that a lot of us, and I still feel this, like I had the flu a few years ago. And my first thought was, I wonder if I'm going to lose like five pounds. And then I felt so much guilt and shame for that. I was like, why would I even think that? That's so messed up. Like, you've come so far, like getting away from disordered eating.

Why would you even think that? But then the second thought is the one that is like you. The first one is the one that I think is like conditioned. And I think the second thought is the one that matters. The second one was the one that identified that that was pretty messed up. And that we should really be focused on getting better and not focused on if we're going to lose five pounds. You can't judge yourself for the first thought.

You can't judge yourself. Yeah. You can't. We all do it. Conditions. Yeah. Yes. Speaking of condition just reminds me more like a.

of our mothers, you know, speaking of that generation, like, how conditioned? Like, mom still, like, won't leave the house without makeup on. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it's just programmed in them or, like, if she's not. My mom doesn't leave the house. She's ready for a daytime Emmy. I mean, you get there at 9 a.m.

It is like she's got dialed in. 100%. 100%. We always joke. Her mom, like Patricia, she will all, like, the vanities. Yeah. She's like, you're growing up, but mom, do I need to lose weight, five pounds. 100%.

Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Still. Still. Still. But that's what she grew up with, right? That's like still her, that's her narrative. Like, that's what, yeah.

Yeah. Like, I was doing research at one point. I can't remember what was, but like the generation where they literally taught women that you were supposed to like make sure you looked a certain way and the house was tidy before the man came home. Oh, my God. He was a partner. Like, could you imagine us today?

Like, I get home, everything's off and I'm in sweats and makeup's gone. Like I, I have had to actually, like, to your point, Rachel, like, I have had to learn to wear makeup out, like, no, like, not wearing makeup outside the house. Like, I had to get into the practice of, like, doing that. And because it felt so foreign and, like, wrong. And now I'm like, I could wear it and I could not. And I'm, like, actually genuinely okay with either or. Yeah.

I sometimes find that I'm, like, a little bit more set up. Like, I feel like, I feel like, there's a little bit more intention. I love like somebody once said it's like a face hug when you're like having moments with yourself in the mirror in the morning. It can be really beautiful. It's different if you're putting on makeup because you're trying to like hide mask or fix or like, you know. Yeah. And those intentions can change. But like when I got to the point where I started getting in the practice of like leaving the house without makeup or even showing up on Instagram stories without makeup, without my hair done and all these things like you realize that nothing big and scary happens even if that's what you weirdly felt was

going to happen on the inside. Like why did we all. think that something bad was going to happen. Because generations ago, our mothers were told that they wouldn't be loved and respected as partners and as women if they didn't do that. So no wonder it's like bled into us and we have this like living inside of our bodies and our brains. And we're like slowly trying to crack through that. Not to mention, we show up on social media and we see 30 seconds of somebody's lives and decide that that's the whole picture. And we're comparing ourselves to that constantly too. So we're in a very, very guinea pig moment of time. We're very much figuring out the balance of like healing from the past generation's teachings and ways and also with the new wave

of just a very curated version of what life is online and trying to find ourselves in the middle of that and ultimately figure out what our legacy is. Like what do, I wrote this whole piece the other day of like we spend our whole lives so focused on our bodies and that's the thing that gets left behind that doesn't matter. Isn't that the one thing that like it's literally just disintegrates but the way you treat people, the way you love people, what you do in your work and your job and like how like those are the things that you leave behind yet we spend our whole lives focusing on what our body looked like and that's the one thing we don't that's like we don't even left behind. You don't take it, but it's also like it's not your legacy. Your body is not your

legacy. It never will be. You will be buried or you'll be cremated or whatever. But like that is not what people will hold of you. They will, they might hold your ashes, but they're not like, oh, the, her body. She had like such a tiny waist. I'm holding all the. No. No, they're not. No, they're not. They care so much more about like how you accomplish things. Like I follow like women who are astronauts and I'm just like, man, that's a cool legacy. And you know, you think about like, what is the mark I want to leave on this world? And it can be as simple as I just want to be the person that's always nice people in the drive-through. I want to be somebody who always puts the cart back. Like, your legacy does not have to be award-winning and like some big splashy thing.

It can just be the kindness that you leave in this world. There was a man in our town. And he was always alone, but he was always very sweet. And he ended up passing away. And I saw the whole community that come together and put all of these things that they knew was his favorite candy, his favorite pop, like putting flowers down. This is a man who lived his life alone. But his impact was there. Like his impact was in his kindness and the fact that like people passing by felt that. So like, what did his body matter? What he did and who he was mattered. And I think, again, this is like where we kind of lose the plot so often. And it's, I don't think it's our fault. No. Well, no. You're also in Canada.

Yeah. It's not our. fault, but we do have the information now. Yeah. Right. And the way I looked at it is I'm trying to eat healthier foods and stuff. I want to keep this vehicle well. Yes. Energetic, thriving, awake. Your brain functioning. Yes. I want to remember. I want to do this as long as I can for my children. Yeah. And I want to be the best version of myself. And if I treat myself poorly, whether it's how I talk to myself, what I eat, not working out. Like all of those things are going to lend to fatigue to all of these, you know, dis-ease, stress in the body.

So it's kind of like reshaping like, what is the why? Yeah. What is the why? Is it because you want to look a certain way or is it because you want to feel a certain way? And you want that kind of, you know, enthusiasm for life that. Yeah. caring for yourself gives you.

I was like late, I was up from like two to four last night because sometimes I'll fall asleep with my daughter and then I'm fucked. And so my mind at those hours goes so dark. Like it's all the worst things. It's all the anxieties. Last night I was focused on if I'm going to have dementia and if I'm going to have to leave my daughter earlier than my body. And this was what I know.

I know. Oh, Ray. I know. But my brain lately, I worry. Because I know. It's forgetful. Forgetful. It's weird, right? It's a mom thing. It's so scary. Like, I lost my phone three times, getting out of the house to go to Shepard's birthday. I lost it. I found it and lost it three.

I was an hour later than I wanted to leave because I kept losing my phone. And I'm like, what can I do to help my brain? Because all it is for me, though, is not leaving my daughter early. Like, I don't care about anything else. I want to be healthy and present and watch her grow up. Control the controllable, right? Like, as much as you can. And I think what's interesting, is like we focus a lot on or we see a lot of people focusing on like working out to burn calories or eating as minimal as possible and restricting. I'll be honest, my brain function at the height of my disordered eating was so bad. Like I was not, I don't think I was a very happy person outwardly because my brain wasn't even being fueled. About a year and a half ago,

I was diagnosed with PMDD, which is like a very extreme PMS, um, causes like, suicidal ideations every month. And I had at the same time started training for a 10K. And it was undeniable the connection between what that cardio was doing while training for this 10K and what it was doing for my mental health. And I do believe that we can have second chances at things. I had a very disordered relationship with exercise for a long time. And now I have one with a very different approach. And it's the same way as like, I, was married before and it didn't work out and it felt like, do I just, is marriage just not for me? No, like maybe we were just doing it wrong. And now I'm in one that I'm so grateful that I tried

again. And I actually went back to the same gym that I used to work out at obsessively. And I went back with a healthier mindset about it of like, this is so good for my brain. Yeah. And now like I just run 40 and like there's a lot of focus on like how your bones can deteriorate over time. And I'm like, okay, we got to shift into doing more weights because I want my bones to be. And I'm like, I want my bones to supported so I can continue to show up. And if I want to live the life of like saying yes to as many things as possible, I better be prepared for that. So I want to be prepared for that. Right. And so I do think like shifting, I think what happens for a lot of people in the bumpy part of the ride is they're like, okay, I've had this disordered relationship with something. Therefore, I shouldn't be

interacting with it. We don't realize that there's actually like different ways to approach different things. Like it's called walking the dragon. Yeah, it's not one thing. Yeah, it's not one thing. It is so many things. And so for a while, I had to put post-it notes on the front of the, you know, peloton and stuff that said where the calorie tracker was. And now I, you know, I can see it. And I'm just like, whatever. Like, I'm not thinking about it. It's not an obsessive behavior.

But it was for a very long time for me. I knew the calories in every food. I knew the calories that I was burning through every exercise. And it was like a constant math equation I was doing. And now I'm like, I just want to make sure that I'm getting like my mental health. supported every day. This is my survival tool. This is how I'm going to stay on this earth. And I need to make sure I'm doing my therapy. I need to make sure I'm eating foods that, you know, nourish both my brain and my body so that I can do the exercise to keep my brain functioning to stay alive so that I can be a

mother. And to your point, be here for them as long as I can in the controllable way that I can. There are so many people who are going to be limited to that in different ways and iterations and health that can happen along the way and things that will pause you and stop you at certain times as well. But when you have the chance, trying to just, like, that's love. Like, is that not the ultimate love language? It's just, how can I show up for you today? And you just, everyone's path is going to be so different, too. Like, you can't, I could tell everybody how I love myself and it's not going to be the same way that you love yourself. We're all going to have different paths to that. Yeah. 100%.

that's what it feels like you know after just talking about all this stuff and it's just it's an active practice you know like you've been saying and it's a lot of work but yeah I feel like that's what life is that's what love is and that's what being a mom is I mean yeah these people oh boy these people and you have four of them you have four people I know it's I I sometimes wake up And I'm like, who I'm literally 13 years old when you're talking about. I know, right? Who put me in charge of this? And I feel so chaotic.

So sometimes I feel a lot of guilt and shame around the fact that like, I'm like you, I lose things all the time and constantly. I just got one of those calendars that like syncs everybody's calendars because I'm like, I'm so tired of forgetting everything. Yeah. Everything needs to be more in check. Like I feel like I'm just all over the place all the time. But I mean, that's life.

That's part of it. And I think we're all doing our best. And I think ultimately, the biggest message that I hope everyone listening takes away is like, be easy on yourself. This is hard for everybody. It's not just you. You're not alone.

You're not, you know, you're not broken and you're not, I don't know, you are so capable of so much. And your love for yourself is in everything that you're doing, waking up every single day and choosing to seek that. Even in the tiniest, tiniest ways possible, I think is, And ultimately figure out how to show up in the life that you want because it's not just going to magically appear for you if you get down to a certain size. You're not going to, like, that's not going to get you the right partner. It's not going to get you the right, you know, life that you think that is going to provide you.

Do that inner work so that no matter what happens externally, you can keep pursuing you and you can keep showing up and live that life because I want my kids to have memories with. me in them. Not just me just having memories for me at 80. I also want memories for them. I want to exist in their stories too. Right. Yeah. Live your life.

And if you need a different kind of life, you play Sims. You play Sims. This is the answer. Yeah. This is the answer today. You need any kind of outlet. Sims. Sims.

And it can also, it's like just one thing. Just try one thing different today. Just one. Yes. You know? We talked about this this morning. What? What's the different thing?

Do you make your bed in the morning? Oh. No. Okay. Me either. This is a fascinating topic. Kevin, do you make your bed? 50-50.

50-50. I don't even know what that means. That's just, I thought there was like, you make your bed or you don't. Like, you're either the person that has to make their bed before they leave the house. Some days I do. Depends on what's going on. I make it before getting back into it. Oh, you do?

Like we reset the bed before we reset the bed before we. get back in. Like, we have to fix all blankets. Even if it's at bedtime? Like, at bedtime, getting into bed is like when we fix the sheets. Yeah, like, that's when we fix it. I don't fix it in the morning. I'm usually like, my daughter comes in to our room in the morning and like bounces all over the bed while I'm getting ready and then we're out the door. So it would be a whole other step that, who cares? Like, but for some people, it's like such a mental thing. You need to know, you need to have it done because it's giving you peace. We're very different people. It's not beautiful. It's amazing. I was told that when I first got sober and my sponsor was like, the only thing I ask of you is to make your bed every day. And I was like, what is that going to do? The rest of my room was a mess. She's like, just make the bed. And I've done it every day since for 14 years. And I will say it's that small contrary action that ended up changing my life. Do you do it in a hotel? Yes. Absolutely. You make the bed even though housekeeping is going to come and make the bed. I'll dial it up a little bit.

Because I feel really good, like getting ready in a peaceful environment. It sets my day up for success. If I feel things are wonky, I feel a little wonky. It's like a thing. Yeah, no, I know. That's like me. If I wear sweatpants, that's my chill out mode. If I want to be productive, I have to put on jeans. I don't know why. That is the way it is. But if I want those windows washed, I got to wear jeans that day. Doesn't make sense. I get it. I get it. I get it. How my mind works. And it's how I'm activate and get things done and it only has to make sense to you. It doesn't have to make sense to anybody else. Totally. Absolutely. I did incorporate sweatpants yesterday in my like going out outfit and incorporated it. And I was like, I'm trying to normalize business sweats. Yeah. Yeah. You know,

business sweats are cool. I liked it. Listen. Like it's a thing. You know, all for me in life is just about being comfortable. Whatever that is. It can mean anything. You come to a point. You come to a point where you're like, nothing else matters. Just want to be comfortable. Is my underwear comfortable? My pants comfortable. Like, yeah. Forget it. Yeah. Don't you love that though?

Part of aging is like actually giving less fucks about all of these other things. Absolutely. I just want to be comfortable. I just want to live that life. Yeah. 40s are great. Welcome to 40 by the way. Thanks.

I'm very excited about it. I'm so nervous. I think because the 30s were so special to me that I like had a hard time closing. I mean, I did so much. Like those were like the biggest life change. that I took and the biggest steps I took for myself were in my 30s. And I think when it like inched up on 40, I was like, oh my God, I have to say goodbye to like this decade that like changed my life. I was so emotional about it. But then everyone's like, oh, you're going to love 40.

40's when you give less fucks. And I was like, oh, get me 40. Yeah. Get me to 40. And you know, I think this is what's so cool too is like also watching people aging. And I think we're getting a lot better at like people's careers. I mean, to me more just with like her beautiful speech of like feeling like she was done. And now she's like, I don't know, just looking up to women. I had a mentor when I was younger that was like a woman who was like 10 years older than me. But it was like so cool to have somebody look up to and look ahead on the journey. And I think we have the opportunity now with social media. I try not to just follow people that look like me and are the same size as me and like same age as me. Like follow people there 10 years down the road because they have so much

wisdom and so much that they've learned and like less bucks and you can like you can like sort of like you can take that off of them yeah it's awesome so I'm very excited for 40s I think I just I don't know when you were younger 40 sounded ancient and now I'm like oh I'm just getting started are you kidding like 30s was the warm ups 40s is where we like fucking go that's what I feel exactly I feel so much like I'm not in I'm not having babies like I'm actually done that chapter now so it's like now let's go Yeah. Let's go. Yeah. I'm excited. I'm excited for you. We're a little ahead of you. So it's great. But this has been amazing. You are so incredible. And I'm so happy that I got to meet you and talk to you. I know. Even like this. Thank you so much. Honestly, this is so cool. It's also a little weird. Like I had this like freak out for myself. And I was like, this is weird. Because you're like going into an interview with somebody that you like watched growing up. It's comforting.

there's like something about it where it's like look it we grow up do you like Steve from blues like came back on social media and he's like hey guys like sorry I kind of like left you suddenly like I went to college and I never really came back and I just wanted to come back and say hi and everyone was like in collective teal's like oh my god thank you Steve for coming back and I think that's so special like there's part of me that's like the teenage version of me is like freaking out and then like the adult version of me is like so proud like look at us we grew up yeah that's 40 It's so special. So special.

Aw, it's so awesome. No, this is lovely. It was really nice meeting you both. You too. I love what you're doing. I love your hearts and like the way that you're leading these conversations are so comforting and yet so powerful. And that like that's just such a gift in this life. You both are just really such a gift.

Oh, my God. You are. Like, just unbelievable. I do have something to say on this. I don't know if we're allowed to share it. It's kind of personal information. I don't know if it's like. confidential.

Okay. So if it is, you can edit it out. But Sarah's Sims character, she did end up DMing Rachel and I that it got crabs. Oh my gosh. She did. She got what, after the interview, we opened it up and she DM'd us. And she was like, you guys, case you're wondering,

my Sims character has crabs. Anything is possible in those games. I had no idea. Yeah. And I played that game as a kid. I don't remember any sort of STDs being spread in with my Sims characters. But I guess I wasn't playing it. Maybe I was playing it right then.

We may need to check with her as that personal information, even though it's her sim. It can be divulged. I don't know. I don't either. I think it's fine. I really thought it was crazy that you're playing this game and you have this simulated character that's having sex with other people. And would that bother you if Jeff was doing? that? Well, would that bother you if Leah was doing that?

I don't think so. You know, my wife does play, not as much she used to. My wife does that. My wife does do that. She, when we were looking to buy a house, we were talking about like dream houses of like, maybe it could look like this, maybe it could look like this. She pulled up the Sims and built a house. It was like something like this. Yeah, exactly. So it was helpful and blueprints for a house, but I did not walk in on her. Boing. It's called something.

Yeah, boinking or something. Wait, I have a question on that. So when they're boinking someone or doing what they do, is it another player that they're actually doing it with? Oh, because that makes a difference from me. That's what I thought it was. Yeah. I don't think it's like online where it's like.

Oh, you're not interacting like alive. No, it's, I think they're called NPCs, non-playable characters. So it's just like a robot comes over. So that's different. That changes it all for me. Because if he was doing it like with a real person. I thought it was someone else playing and they're consummating, you know.

Yeah. That's what I thought. Well, I wouldn't like it if he was on. No, seriously. I have a question. Yeah. So and this is a little, you know, personal and that's why I'm going to ask it. If you're in a relationship and your partner watches porn, right?

And you're either okay with that or you're not. Do you think that's the same as engaging in OnlyFans? Like if you subscribe, like... Well, do you interact on OnlyFam? Yeah. You don't, I don't think you have to. I think you can, like, comments and engage with the person, but I think you could just pay for it and just watch whatever the...

So it's like a porno where it's already recorded. It's there just for reviewing. You can do both, though. You can pay more. have them do things you want them to do. So there is something personal. You can also pay for live chat or live chats. You can pay for different experiences. Right. So do you see that the same as someone who would watch porn? I feel like that's a little different. I do too. What about you? Yeah, I agree. If it's more like engaging with the performer. It's personal at that point. Yeah. Agreed.

Seems like it. So I'm going to have to stop. That is interesting, though. It is, right? Yeah. Because I'm like, there's a fine line, and then you've got like a personal connection with someone. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's a different thing for sure. Do you care if someone looks at it? At what? Porn? No. Do you? No.

Do you? Huge. No. Huge fan. Huge fan. Huge fan. Huge fan. Huge fan.

No. All right. Way to start the combo. I know. We're just getting into it. Yeah, guys. Speaking of which. What?

I'm just kidding. Oh. It's like, what she got now? I worked on a podcast where it was improvisers and comedians and they would put clips of like sketches they did on porn sites. Amazing. And one of the clips that they did, it's this group called Big Grande, which that name probably helped too. They did a sketch called like the funeral and it got millions and millions

of views like on Pornhub. And it was like they were like, it was very interesting that so many people were clearly searching like funeral related. Oh my God. And the comments were very funny because there was a lot of people that were like, came here to jack off, but these guys were actually pretty funny. Oh, that's amazing. See, it's kind of like what we were talking about. We were talking about how we like talking to experts and comedians. It's like I came to learn something, but I got a laugh. Yeah. I love a laugh.

Love a laugh. Do you think people are just born funny, Kevin? Hmm, good question. I'm going to say... A chicken or an egg question. I'm going to say no. But I do think there are people that are naturally funny, but I do think people can become funny. Okay, so do you really think that? So kind of both, I guess. You think people can learn how to be funny. Yeah, I think there's kind of like a formula, like a rhythm to it that people can learn and like adapt to. But that doesn't mean that they're necessarily good at it. But I think there is kind of like a comedic language that people can learn and adapt to. It just kind of depends on like how good they are at it. That being said, I do think there are people that are just natural.

truly super funny and didn't never needed to learn it. And then there's other people that I've seen who have like studied it and are good at like replicating it. They get the beat. Yes. Yeah. And they learn how to do the technical aspect of joke telling or writing or delivering a punchline. Like music.

Like musicians. Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like you have to be born with either you get the beat or you don't. Like I don't think that's something that can be learned. I've never seen it because I'm like the people that went and studied it, there was probably something already natural there that drew them to then go study comedy. The timing.

Like, I think all of it is. Maybe not. Like, I think my kids are funny. Yeah. And I don't think I'm just saying that because I'm a parent. No, Elliot gets the joke. Like, they get a certain beat where I'm like, that's funny. Yeah.

Yeah. But that's not taught. No. My parents are interesting because I think my mom is, I think both of my parents are funny. I think my mom is naturally funny and that she just does things that make people laugh. And she's not even trying. It's just like she gets in a situation and everyone just burst out like, how did that happen? Where my dad will like see the potential for like a joke and like make the joke in a much more like intentional way.

And so they're both funny. like in two completely different ways. Yeah. There's so many ways. I feel like my husband's really funny, but in a very dry, sarcastic. He's got some zingers. But no one would meet him and be like, that Jeff's super funny. But once you know him, you're like, he's smart funny.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then there's people that are just straight up funny. Funny. No, I agree. And then there's the. chuckle fuckers, right? A chuckle fucker? That's my sims character.

Bobby Lee, did he teach us about the chuckle fuckers? I forget. You know my brain, I don't remember. People that have sex with people because they're funny. What? Oh, it's actually in the name. Yeah, it's a chuckle fucker. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did not know that I know Starfucker, did not know chuckle. You did, we had a whole conversation about it. Well, that explains a lot. It was a while ago. I do believe it was Bobby Lee that taught us that. I mean, I believe it. Yeah. Do you think that there's a

group for every kind of thing? A star fucker, a chuckle fucker. Is there a contractor fucker? You know what I mean? Like, shit, he knows how to throw down a hammer. I mean, no, I'm serious though. Like every genre. Yeah.

You think there's a fan base. I like that. I like that each niche has a group that's like, fuck, that's so attractive. No, I'm serious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, X-ray technician. Mm-hmm. Like the most random.

I'm like, I'm just throwing out. Like, is there porn? Like, is there porn for each one of those categories? They do have a lot of categories. There's funeral fuckers. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Right?

So there's got to be X-ray technician. Funeral fuckers. Sure. That sounds bad. Sounds real bad. Why? Oh, like a corpse. No.

Not that kind of funeral fucker. No. Well, then what kind? The other kind, Rachel. They just go to funerals, like, pick up people, like a wedding crusher, but it's a funeral crasher. Yeah, they pray on the morning. That is like a thing for sure. Oh, my God.

It's so dark. It sounds. I'm smart. Yes. It does sound kind of dark. You're like they need consoling. I think there's a phrase for it called, and I understand this because when I watch a movie and someone does something very impressive, I'm like hooked. Like I was watching the show called Day of the Jackal with Eddie Redmayne.

And he like assembles a sniper and it's just like he's very meticulous. And the phrase is called competency. porn and it's being like fixated or impressed with something and it's it doesn't even matter what it is it kind of related to our conversation with Ashland. It's it's the fact that they do it with such detail that you're like I think I have that. Yeah I think I do too. I do think I do too. A hundred but I think that's what can make like a movie or something interesting is I think people have that where when you watch someone do something like very impressive or like with very detail-oriented as a viewer, you're like, oh, that's awesome.

I do think that's so true. And I think it's transferable into any area. So it's like what draws you to a person? It could be like whatever they excel in gets you. Yeah. It doesn't matter what it is. It's just that they are committed to that and they have mastered whatever it is. That's a turn on.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Love it. Yeah. Yeah, right? Seriously. It's just like how we always. talk like if someone is success can be measured in so many ways right but just like if someone's like

a ball or whatever they do that is what if it's born well what if it is well i mean like in you're with this person or you just in general like you're like that's dope what i call it that's competent porn stars out there. I'm sure there are. Competent. I like that, though. What is it called again? Competency porn.

Yeah. I never heard that before. Yeah. I now see it in like shows and movies when I see something that's like, oh, they assembled this, you know, car or something like that. I get kind of like transfixed on it. I was like, why did I like that so much? And it's like, oh, they're just really good at doing a specific thing.

Oh, my God. No, it just makes so much. sense because I yeah and I'm sure it goes back to the kind of caveman brain of like I feel like this person is going to contribute to the tribe and keep us safe in some way yeah you know yeah yeah that makes sense I think of like things that I've seen that are like done so competently and you're like fuck yeah let's think about it I know I'm trying to we love this it's our favorite I know I know this is my like greatest fear we're all like fuck up making a meal for my wife and then try to like reiterate like but i am good at editing podcast like there's my i know what am i competent at what i don't know snacks i'll know snacks

you're you excel i excel at snacks i do i mean beyond and girl scouts are like everyone write down when we first joined you know my daughter everyone write down your skill that you can maybe help provide for the girls scouts the girls and i said snacks It's all I got. It's the only thing I have to offer. Yeah, but even in, okay, here's a way you're incredibly competent. Okay. Let me think about it.

No, I'm just kidding. Like, for instance, today I was like, what am I going to do with the TV and the couch? Like, you are really good at. What? Competent. But sure. Of course it is. Okay.

Because I get stumped. I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what to buy. I don't know where to put it. I don't know if I should do it. A confident shopper is what she's saying. You are. I think there's like social skill stuff too that like my wife is really a really good

conversationalist. I almost view that as like a competency. A hundred percent. It is. That's her. It definitely is. Yeah. And so that's where it gets interesting to where there's these kind of like non-tangible

like ephemeral ones of like, oh, this person's really good at like taking a tent situation and then making everyone feel like better. So things like that are kind of fascinating too where it's it's not just like, oh, I can re-shingle the roof. It's like I'm really good with, you know, diffusing a awkward situation or something. Right. It's really interesting to think of it like that if you were thinking about like, okay, in your apocalypse team. Yeah. Right. And you were going to go back to those primitive villages where each person really showed up. Yeah. In their strengths. Yeah.

Like, what would those be for you? I'd be pick last. They would pick animals. I thought you were starting to say I'd be pickling. I thought you were going to say, I'd be pickleball king of Chicago. Mine would be the pickleball dude. That'd be amazing, by the way. Definitely necessary.

Yeah. No, what would you? You would be, what? I feel like I would offer my, I'd be like a counselor. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. That's a good one. I'd be snacks.

You would. Yeah. You'd be meals. You know? With some snacks. Yeah. I'd be meals. Meals on wheels.

All the meals. Not just the snacks. You can make the chicken sputnik. I'm hungry. I know. I could knit now. See, you can make our warmth and our blankets. I also can do fire.

I can do that kind of stuff too. Oh, really? Fire? Yeah. What do you mean? What does that mean? You can like rub two sticks together and make a fire? Not so much.

But like I can actually, like, I know how to like build it. to get the right air flow and all that stuff. Like in the fireplace? Like in the camp site. When's the last time you built a fire in a campsite? I don't do it, but I know how to keep it going and I know what you have to do and how to place the logs. Like stack. Like airflow.

Yeah. Why are you questioning me? I just don't, I've never seen you do that. I don't know. When have we been somewhere? where like I've needed to build a fire. I don't know and I'm wondering why we haven't. You know what I mean? Like I'm just like why aren't we building fires.

We should just do an episode on like skill. Like you know. Yeah, yeah. Cubs scout, girls scout vibes of like. I'm not good at those things. I'm horrible at it. Yeah.

You know how I would survive by picking the best crew. I think that would be my survival skill. Yeah. She would pick the best crew. I'm good at that. I think that's like the one that's mine is the person it goes like, we need a team. I'm like, okay, let me assemble a crew. You guys can assemble. Yeah. I know some shit about some shit. Do tell. No, I'm just saying, like you're

questioning my fire skills. I'm not questioning them. You know I have faith in you and you know I know you do weird shit. Birch will always burn, even if it's wet. Bet you didn't know that. I for sure didn't know that. I'm not like a birch kid. You know what I mean? Like I don't know about that. I wasn't either, but I've had experiences in my life. Yeah. I've learned some shit. How do you feel about actual camping? I love it. Not glamping. I know.

Yeah. Legit camping. You love it? You're not a camper, are you, Kevin? No. No. You love it? I do.

I like doing it now. I will say I have some friends that are the most, the born-offs are the most dialed in people. Right. So when we go skiing with them, they'll be like, oh, and then we're going to do like a little thing in the snow after And to me, I'm like, that's freezing, that sounds dangerous, that's horrible. But then they break out their stove and they're this and they're that and they've got it all like dialed.

That I enjoy. Yeah. But I don't like it when it's not dialed. She likes glamping. I prefer glamping. Yeah, no, I love glamping. I still will go camping. Yeah, of course.

Olivia, what I will say about her is she is a yes woman. Like she's always down. I mean I am too You are Yeah We both are Yeah But yeah

I just think I am a no man Are you? Are you? Are you? You are bound You are bounderied As all hell

I've gone camping Once in my life I'm sorry mom If you're listening To this I did lose my virginity The only time What?

Did not see that coming Did not see that coming I went with my girlfriend When we were in college And she said Let's lose our virginity She was like

Let's have sex And I was like Okay great And so I was so nervous. You pitched a tent all right. Yep, exactly. Ding. It was October in Chicago.

It was freezing. Oh my God. And so set up the tent, did a campfire, had sex. It was too cold to sleep. It was like 30 degrees. And then we just packed up the tent and then went back to the dorm. Oh, my God. It was my only camping experience.

But you know what? That was a very memorable for many reasons. Formative. Formative. Yeah. So you never know where conversations are going to go. Right? Did you think you were going to be talking about that today?

Nope, I did not. When you woke up, you were like, you know what? He's like, somehow some way I will get there. No matter what. No matter what. Oh, I'm impressed. Yeah. That's sweet.

That's actually cute. That is cute. And cold, though. I don't know about that. I don't like being cold. I don't like being cold either. That's the only problem with camping. It's cool.

It's usually cold. Yeah. I don't love being cold. No, I don't need. There's a sweet spot. I like sleeping in a cooler room, but like with blankets and stuff. I'd rather be in a cooler room than a warmer room. But when it was like, you can see your breath.

I was like, we don't have to do this. That's, yeah. We already did the other thing. We can go back. This is what we really came for. Yeah. Yeah. Did you at least make a s'more or anything?

No, but the thing that stressed me out was she put, It's romantic, put several candles in the tent. But the whole time I was like, we're going to die in here. This is going to burn to the ground. Yep. Oh, my God. But that's a really cute, lose your virginity story. Yeah.

It's yours. Well, mine's kind of cute. Okay. It was my birthday. Aw. And my mom got me and my boyfriend tickets to go see Beauty and the Beast. Wait. That's so weird.

I know. So we got like all dressed up. Like I was wearing like pearls. I don't know. We were like dressy. Yeah. And we went and we saw, we went to the theater and then we came home and we had sex. That was it.

You're like happy birthday to you. Well, she didn't know. No, your boyfriend. It was my birthday. I know. Yeah. Happy birthday to you, mom. I'm having sex.

I didn't like. You didn't like sex? No. No. Mm-mm. And I thought there was something wrong with me. Really? Yeah, I didn't like it.

That's interesting that you took it personal. Like there's something wrong with you. Well, because it's all hyped up. I know. It's so hyped. And like the first time is like, what the fuck was that? Okay, your turn. I mean, do I even remember?

I, it was very brief. That's all I'll say. But was it at your house? Was it camping? Were you... It was at my house. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, it was at my house in my twin-sized bed.

Yep. And it was very brief. Very. Right. You didn't like it. No. No. It was like, okay, we'll just do this to do this.

And then you're like, oh. Yeah. What was the point? I remember how to friend get mad at me too because she didn't want me to lose my virginity. Why? She was just a little wholesome and she just... Oh, who?

Well, I can't say. But I remember her being like hurt and like she cried about it. And then she was like, you're different. Like you're walking different. You're acting different. Walking different. I was walking like fucking swag into every room. Yeah, she was just like, you've changed.

You know. How old are you? I can't say Can you? No. Then I can't. Definitely not. He was in college.

19. Way more appropriate. Totally appropriate. If I was 19, I would say. Right. Sure, yeah. You know if I's not saying? You know what's going on.

So bad. So bad. Oh, God. Okay, anyways. But what I will say is I lost my virginity to a guy that I stayed with then for like six to eight years. or something. So it's not like, oh, good for you.

No, mine was my boyfriend. Mm-hmm. I thought it. Wasn't my boyfriend, was it? I can't remember. No, but yeah, it wasn't just some, whatever. Mm-hmm. Random thing.

Oh, God. Abort. It is funny how friends, like my roommate got in my head and was just like, and said exactly what, you know, you were saying, Rachel, he was like, you're going to last two seconds.

You got to, you know, it's going to be so embarrassing. You got to do this and that. And then it's funny how your friends get you more in your head than maybe you even would have been. Yeah, so you're just hearing your friend the whole time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't embarrass yourself. Yeah. Oh, it must be hard for a guy, though.

I would imagine there's like a lot more pressure on the man. I believe that's true. I think so. They've got like performance. Yeah. Things, you know. There could be performance anxiety. I've experienced that too, haven't you?

For yourself? No. Like, witnessed it. Yes, I've witnessed it. Yeah. I've never experienced it. No. No.

I'm getting a performance anxiety. I can't. Too many eyes on me. We need to be stopped. I know. Please stop. I should have like a timer that goes down. Yes.

Should have an alarm go off and just like, shut off. Please. Kevin, we need. We need an alarm. Sound the alarm. We'll do that in the future. Okay, great. Great. Okay, goodbye.

See ya. That was a headgum podcast.