Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Tess Sanchez on Rediscovering Your Purpose

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

Rachel and Olivia talk to author and casting director Tess Sanchez about meeting her husband Max Greenfield, her book We’ve Decided to Go in a Different Direction and adjusting to major life changes. Make sure to buy her book here!Watch the vide of this episode here!Like the show? Rate Broad Ideas 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts and SpotifyAdvertise on Broad Ideas via Gumball.fm See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a Headgum podcast. Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is the Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yello, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast. on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. Because peep, what? It's so sad. No, you're just like a little...

Yeah. I'm a little sicky. But I'm excited for our guest today. Why aren't you talking? Oh, am I supposed to talk? Normally you just say it. I do? Yeah.

You say it. I know, but I sound like. this. No, I don't say it. I'll say it. Our guest is Tess Sanchez, author, former casting, directing star, and guest of the show. Well done, you. I'll give my reps in. Well done. See, we just wanted to go in a different direction, like you said. Yeah.

Okay, I'm really, I'm sorry, not myself. Enjoy. Let's just let Teth enter the chat room. I like your pink sweatshers. Thank you very much. It's comfortable. And I like your green sweatshirt. Sweeter. The colors. They're bringing the colors this morning. Not over here.

We already complimented. We are all in. Oh, yeah, we're all muted. Denham and maybe and browns. That's how we roll. Very stylish, very cute. Thanks. Admiring everything, trying to take it all in.

We're going to copy it all in. Guys, I dressed up for you. You did good. It makes me feel very special that he actually wanted to do so. Oh, yeah, I wanted to look nice. That is so nice. You did. Well, we were just talking before we hit record on all the connections.

So many. So many. Which is so wild. And the one I thought of driving over was your husband, Max. Right. Played a young Sandy Cohen on the O.C. Which was some of his best work. I love it.

I loved it so much. Yeah. We were like, put that on the real, baby. Yeah, it was like right in between, I think, some ugly Betty takes. Oh, okay. And you guys have been together since then. Yeah. So how many years?

How do you do it? We met in 2003. Wow. Long time. I know. Yeah, that's a long time. What, 22 years ago? Yep.

And so, yeah, we have like the greatest meet cute, which I do talk about in my book. we've decided to go in a different direction. Love the title. Yes. We'll get it. We'll get into that. Yeah, we will. But I do talk about the first night we met.

We met at like the old-fashioned way at a club. Which one? Yeah, what club? National. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We were there. Okay.

We were there. I was there with my girls and he was there with his boys and like we had no common people. but we just sort of locked eyes across the room and I was like, like, why are you staring at me? Like, do you know me? I don't know you. Like, what's going on? And like, he just kept looking over.

My friend's like, who is that? I'm like, I don't know. Maybe I met him on a general or something because I was like new in casting and, you know, sitting in on general meetings. And so I like called him over. And I was like, have we? Like, it's so cliche.

Have we met before? And he was like, no, we haven't. but I'm Max, you know, with a New York accent. And I was like, wow. Are you an actor? I'm so afraid to ask. And he said, I am. I was like, oh, always the first reaction, right?

I know, I was like, oh, God. He's like, what do you do? And I'm like, I'm in casting, you know? And from that night on, we like hit the ground running and, you know, never looked back. What? Yeah. Yeah, we dated for five years, and then we got married. And then two years later, we had our first child.

And then five years after that, we had our second child. Wow. Yeah. So we have like a 15-year-old and a nine-year-old. Oh, my goodness. You don't hear that often. The age difference or together a little time? No, you hear that.

Together that long here in that industry. So true. Like especially meeting at that age, like we were a part of that world. We were there. We know it. It was hard to even get a second phone call. Oh, right? Because everyone was so distracted.

Yes, but it was a mess, you know? Right. I mean, there were no traditional dates. No one was, I mean, my dating history at that point was like, do you want to meet out? That's it. Right. But I was like, I'll be at the club. Yeah.

And that was that. It was never, I'm going to pick you up at this time. and then we're going to go to dinner and da-da-da-da until I met him. Stop it. And he was, I said, I want to take you to Cafe Stella. Oh, my God, I remember. I used to get the French friends from. And he said, I want to take you there.

And when we went to dinner, his credit card got declined. Stop it. Yeah. Like, and you're an actor. I know. I was like, geez. And then he's like fumbling through. He's like, try this one.

And I was like, this is so embarrassing. Oh, my God. And I was like, well, I don't like you for the money. That's a good sign. Yeah, no, I know. That you still wanted another date. Yeah, I mean, we just kept going, yeah. You just kept going.

Yeah. And he was very poor for the first part of our relationship. And I was the breadwinner at that point. And just because I had a steady job. Right. Yeah. Right. Did you guys help each other?

Because I do believe, you know how people are like, oh, you got to do it on your own, there's something the other. I don't believe in any of that. I think sometimes when you meet the right person, you can really help execute each other's full potential. And the fact that you guys both ended up with such huge careers, I'm like, you guys probably had a hand in helping each other, right? Well, I definitely helped him. You're like that. And by helping him, I mean, I recognized his potential.

Yeah. And I motivated him. and became ambitious for the both of us. That's, you know, I mean, he's just the sweetest, really more of an artistic mentality. You know, I am much more driven and propulsive in my goals and my ambitions. So I was like, hey, let me show you how to be super bossy and get what you want. And he was a great, you know, he did.

did. He did and and look I I would be lying if I said I never did a self-tape with him or like went over lines, you know, right. And but then, you know, he kind of grew out of it and he was like, no, I can do this on my own, you know. Wow. Wow. So I have a good story about the first job that I got him though. Yeah. Oh, love this. I love it. We need it. Or one of the first jobs, which is, I mean, he has his own first job on undressed, MTV I'm dressed. Oh, one of our best friends. Everyone had the first job on undressed. It's really special. His episode was called Victor's Secret. And he was Victor. Thank God. Yes. And Victor had got locked in a laundry room with in a towel. Wait, is it Leah's episode? Oh my God. Is that Leah's episode? Wait, keep going. Keep going.

He could not find any clothes. So he had to put on women's underwear. and break out of this laundry room wearing women's lingerie. It's so bad. Oh my God. It's so good. Wait, that's amazing. That sounds so familiar. And I was like, shh, Victor's secret.

The secret is that he was wearing women's lingerie. That is hilarious. I mean, only on MTV, right? Only on MTV. Those days. Yeah, that was his, that was like sag after. That's the nutcraper. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Yeah. So then he did that and then, you know, there were a bunch of like little odd jobs here and there. And then I was working at, I was doing the reboot of Melrose Place. Oh, yes. Casting director, yes. And he auditioned and he did not get a series regular role. They were like, we're not really feeling it for him.

It was like Sean Sipose and like some other. Yeah, some other random people that were more of a fit for the CW. And he was really discouraged. And I was like, you know, just we got it just. And they said, well, we know that you're engaged to him or whatever. How about he is the realtor for Melrose Place? So he's going to go in and show people the building on camera or whatever. but it turns into, you know, the CW wanting to do like a press kit where it's like they open on him.

He's like, welcome to Melrose Place. And he opens the door and then he gives them a tour of the apartment building. Yeah. But it's not on the show. You know, it's promo. It's just for the promo. Then they take his picture and they put it on every bus stop as a realtor. And it's like, come to Melrose Place.

He starts getting calls. of people saying to him, did you quit acting? Are you in real estate now? Because the benches were all down Melrose. Oh my God. That's actually a genius marketing. It was really genius. And he may never forgive me for that. Because he was like, still in his day. That bench is on Melrose. He's like, so I sold a few houses on the side during that time. I know. And he's like, I'm a realtor. That's what I am. Oh, my God. Isn't that good? That is so good. Yeah, but not on the show. Not on the show.

And I was like, take every opportunity you never know where it's going to lead. That's a good advice. How did you become, how did you get into casting? So I started interning and I was working at BCBG on Sunset Plaza. My God, BCBG. Right, I know. Right. Does it still exist?

I think so. Yes. I think so. I don't think they have stores. Not my daughter, BCBG girls dress at Macy's. Oh, okay. Sorry. Side note.

I don't think they have the stores anymore, but the one on Sunset Plaza was stunning. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I was, so I was working there as a sales girl and right in the mix of things. And people, you know, I ended up becoming friends with another sales girl. And she's like, hey, I'm interning for this director. And I was like, ooh, I've always wanted to do casting. Do you think the casting director would meet with me and I could maybe be her intern? And she said, yeah, let me talk to her.

talk to her and that casting director was Laura Schiff. Oh my God. Wow. Who was out on her on her own for the first time doing an independent movie. Wow. And she interviewed me at Coffee Bean. Oh my gosh. Yeah. No, actually in Brentwood on Sam Ossenei and was like, you know, why do you want to be an intern? Why do you want to do casting? And so I did my whole thing and she called me and said, okay, you can come work for free for me. And I was like, great. And that was my foot in the door. Wow. And then, you know, she went on to go and cast Mad Men and like the West Wing and like all these incredible, incredible shows. And I was lucky enough to be her intern. That is so cool. Right. Yeah, right. One of our favorite things to do is to play casting director. Like we do it all the time. The time. Oh. So it's our favorite game.

Do I. I love it. Yeah. So not to go back to it too much, but in my book, I cast every, I cast every person in the book with a well-known actor. Well, because we were going to ask you to do that. We were literally going to be like, we want to rack her brain and we want her to cast the world. Yeah. And like how you categorize.

Because I remember when we first started auditioning, they'd be like, a sassy, young, vixent, like the way they described it. Oh, the breakdowns are the worst. The worst. They used to be, they used to be so bad they've changed. Sure. Because they had to be careful. Yes. But I'm like, your brain has to start thinking that way, right? So you meet Kevin, like, what do we see here? Like, what are we working with? Sassy Young. Yeah. No, but like, you know what's his breakdown? You know what's his breakdown? Right. Right. Do you start thinking of people in their breakdowns? Like, right, when you meet someone, you're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. No. I do. I don't think of the breakdown. I think of just what actor I would have play them.

Or so I would go back. Yeah. I'm like, can you? I would have Rachel Billson play Rachel Billson. Oh, wow. She's no good. Yeah, that's a really good one. Right now I'm getting a, um, a Jennifer Lawrence vibe. Oh, okay. I'll take her. Right? That's good. That's really good. So in your book, everyone... Is cast to protect the innocent. And also, it's how I tell a story. Right. I'm like, you know, just like you guys do.

And I find that people play this game, but it really helps to provide context of the story that you're telling. I'm like, oh, my sister reminds me of Melanie Linsky. So in the book, I say, Christina, my sister, think Melanie Linsky. Got it. I like it. That's great. You could really paints a picture. Right.

Yes. And my first, you know, my first, you know, boss is played by John Early in the book, who is actually Greg Orson. I love Greg Orson. I know, right? Isn't he the best? He was my first. He hired me, he gave me my first job. He gave me my first job.

Shut up. He did? He did on Reba. Oh, my God. Get out. And then he gave me my second job and maybe my third. Oh, my. Like, Greg Orson was my, like, like, I'm obsessed with it.

I mean, he was, and so in the book, he's played by John Early, and I talk a lot about how. He's played by. Right. He's played by John Early. And, you know, a preppier John Early, you know, like collar popped. Like, when I met him, he was just, he looked like he was out of an 80s movie with, like, a pink polo shirt and, like, perfectly, you know, done hair. And so he, he was just the absolute best. And he hired me.

and we did a like UPN show together. And then I went to the WB and I hired him. Amazing. And he did Riba. Oh my gosh. So I've sort of hired you. Yes, we did. Yeah.

So crazy. God, I love that show. There's a great show. Yeah. It holds up. Yeah. It's really good. You have now done this, right?

Flip, you've written this book. Right. So casting. Why don't you tell us? a little bit about the transition and what inspired the right so the the book is titled uh we've decided to yeah i was like i got you we've decided to go in a different direction and the premise of the book is a phrase that i have used throughout my career oftentimes to let somebody down or easy uh you know to an agent you know to talent directly to actors is you know we've

decided to go in a different direction. A nice way of saying. Yeah. It still hurts. Sorry. Oh my God. Yeah. It hurts so Yeah. You know what? And I didn't really realize. I've been told that when the person cast actually is my doppel ganger. So it's like the real Rachel Belson place her? Yeah, the real Rachel Belson. And I'm like, really? You went in a different direction. Yeah. Oh, that's who I'd cast to play you. Norah. Oh, yeah. Is that her? Yeah. Everyone like we used to mistake us. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. Anyway. Okay. Sorry. So you said it a bunch. And then in the midpoint of the book, it's said to me with the job that I had. And it was just the tables were turned. And the second half of the book is sort of about the aftermath of and all of the relationships in my life that had to shift based on this prism in which I saw myself through, which was this. boss lady. And, you know, I, I had that job and I was working on that career, you know, for 20

years before I met Max and before I had kids. So I had to reprioritize sort of how they saw me and who I was in their life because I was there all the time for the first time in my life. I didn't have a job. So I was sort of looking at them being like, hey, I know this is a new dynamic. I'm around all a time because in you know the job that I had it was it wasn't just like be there at 10 and leave at six you know it was all-encompassing and I was you know I would work late and I would travel and you know I was out a lot you know seeing shows and so you know I was I was definitely that was the the first love of my life was that career that I just I adored and so when when when that went away I kind of moped around for six months, you know, following Max around the house being like, well, what now? Where do I go now? What's next? And he was like, you need a professional sounding board. I can't answer these questions for you anymore. And so I went to therapy and the therapist was like, you should, you know, start writing this stuff down, some of your observations and sort of what you're going through and, you know, relive the event. And then sort of, you know, relive the event. And then sort of, you know,

of how you got there. And my question was, is, you know, why was this identity so important to me? Why am I holding on to this so hard? And who am I without this job? And I think that is a universal thing, you know, not just for people in the business, but, you know, anybody that has a career that they're passionate about and that career goes away. Then who are they without that? And women in particular, I think, have a very strong identity with their career path. And for some reason, that transition is harder for women than it is for men. You know, when that, I see men being like, yeah, so what, I got fired. I'm moving on. You know, I'm going to go do this. Yeah, next. And I was not in a next kind of phase. I was like, I was holding on to it. And I just was like, why? Why is this? And it, and it made me

look back and then kind of look forward. And in doing that, I, you know, I ended up writing a bunch of, you know, writing some essays about it, about how hard and absurd and, you know, embarrassed and ashamed I felt, all the things. You know, I think it's, it's like an actor getting, you know, fired from a job. It was, it felt public and it, and it felt shameful. And, and that was part of the thing that I needed to unpack. Like, why? Why is this, why is this so embarrassing? And so then I continued writing and then I gave it to a friend and the friend was like, this is really good. And like, why don't we, why don't you meet a lit person and blah, blah, blah?

And then it all happened really quickly. And now I'm actually having to talk about it, which is crazy. You're doing great. You're doing so good. And both of us were taken immediately by the subject. by the subject matter, it captures your heart right away because I do think whether it's a career or women go through this with raising their children, their children go off to college, who am I now?

A hundred percent. What am I now? And I do think that there is so much fight to hold on to whatever identity we create. And in the surrendering of that is a lot of pain. And looking at that going, what is this here to teach me? like, who am I next? Olivia, that is like exactly. I would literally look up in the sky and be like, what's the lesson here?

What am I supposed to learn from this? Because it hurts so much. And that answer did not come. And I just kept going, okay, well, you know, I was just looking at myself, like, what did I do wrong? Or why am I so attached to this? And why can't I move on? Gosh, do I? And that could be, and I think you're exactly right that, you know, for somebody whose kids leave for college and this, and they've put everything into that. And they're like, who am I now? Or a divorce.

I was just going to say that. A divorce. A divorce. I defined myself as your wife. Right. And that was something that I never defined myself as Max's wife. And for the first time we were going out in the world and people were like, well, what do you do? And I was like, I'm his plus one right now.

And I hated it. I hated it so much because I had never been in that place before. I'd never, he had always been my plus one. Yeah. You know? And from the beginning. And so I mean, I would walk in ahead of him and be like, I'll see you in a bit, you know. And I'm like, fend for yourself.

And then when the tables turned and, you know, we were traveling and going to events. And I was like, really, I'm your plus one. It's Max Greenfield Plus One. I was like, ew, I hate the sound of that. You know, I've never occupied that space before and it feels uncomfortable for me. And same with, like, all of a sudden I was like at school all the time. Right. And I was like, hey, and they're like, what do you do?

I'm like, nothing really, you know, I'm just blank. And I remember coming home and being like, so how was your day? And Max being like, good, like, you know, this happened, this happened. He's like, what did you do? And I was like, well, I cleaned out the closet. And just, you know, I used to come home from work and be like, oh my God, this incredible thing happened. I met this person, we went into this meeting, and then this debate happened, and then we solved this problem. And I was in such a problem-solving zone. My brain was constantly problem-solving, you know, and when that part of my brain kind of got shut off.

And I was constantly, I started to look at my kids and being like, okay, what problems do I need to solve for you? And like, who am I in this relationship if I'm not solving problems for you? And it was not a great look. You know, I needed to sort of like back up and just say, like I'm enough. I don't need this job to define me. And but it did make me aware that, you know, in Hollywood, the first thing that we do when we go into cocktail parties say like, so what do you do? Yeah. And it's, that's a tough. I, I became hypersensitive to saying that to other people. That's great. Oh, yeah. Because I had people saying it to me for the first time. Right. And I didn't feel like my answer was good enough. Well, I heard someone say recently to stop doing that. They said, don't do it anymore.

Don't ask people what they do. Ask them, what are you excited about? Because anyone could have something that they're excited about or what are you looking forward to, not what do you do? What's your favorite food? Yeah, because that can hurt if you're, but, you know, I want to go back. In a transition. Or in general, right? Like, especially in that kind of world, where there's a lot of comparison, right? Yeah. But Mel Robbins talked about something amazing about learning about her daughter's brain. And she said when she was writing in a book with her, she saw that her brain needed to problem solve.

And that if you took away the problem, it then turned on herself. And she said. Oh, my. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she said, so the good news about that is that we have this.

supercomputer that's built to problem solve. And to me, what I hear in you saying is know thyself, because some people's supercomputer may not problem solve as strong. It may not be set to that mode. Yours is. Constant. Right. So it's like, that's okay. You need a project. Right. Always. And also it's like that feeling of like not feeling comfortable. there's people that are comfortable with it. They're like, oh, I just, you know. I would say 90% of the people that I know are fine with it. It's the 10% that live in this Hollywood bubble that constantly feel like they can only talk about this project or this job.

Right. Like that's what, I mean, if you meet somebody a successful actor and they're like, I'm actually not doing anything right now and they're okay with it because they know that they will work again. Right. And I think for me, my fear came of like, well, is this it? Right. You know, am I done? Are you? No.

I don't think. I think you're just getting starting. I think that I'm open, you know, I like to say like my taxi light is on because I am like, I'm opening the car and being like, let's go for a ride. Because I don't know what the exact next thing is going to be, but I'm enjoying this so much right now. and reflecting on on what I wrote and talking about it and sort of talking about identity and and how we define ourselves and you know being a mom and a wife and and how do you order those things you know how do you see yourself like I saw myself first and foremost as like a problem solving boss and then it was then I'm a mom then I'm a wife right and so when that problem

solving boss part got shut down, I really had to go, okay, do I just turn this to my family and start, you know, problem solving every single, you know, squeaky door in the house, you know, like whatever, you know, whatever the issue is, I'm going to solve it. Or, you know, do I really take time to reflect and think about, you know, maybe it's just not that easy. Maybe it's not that simple. Right. And we can be a lot of things at different times in our lives, and we're not just one thing. No. And another thing, we're going to bring up Mel Robbins again, but she was saying, like, for her, she didn't start her journey until she was 45, right? Right. Like everything, you know, that she's doing now. Are you familiar with her? Yes. The let them theory is very, you know, it's going and making the rounds for sure. But anyway, and it just brought up like. Tell me, tell me what that is. It's basically the serenity prayer, right? It's we can't control the way others show up, the way they behave, what their choices are, as far as codependency to addiction, to parenting, to whatever.

It's let them be who they are and let me handle the situation appropriately, right? So if you take anyone in your life, like, let's say your old bosses, if they wanted to go in a different direction. we would take that situation and say, okay, let them. Let them go in a different direction. That's their choice to make and let me figure out what direction I want to go into next. Oh, wow. That's great. Yeah.

I did not do that. I did the opposite of that. I did the let me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. God, it's so great. Which is also working for you because here we are. That's just like so, that's so graceful, you know?

It is. Like, I mean, it's hard to be graceful. Well, maybe we all, you know, let them be, you know? Yeah. Because I got to get in there. Gotta get in there, you know. And I, and I, I aspire to let them be. I really do.

It's very hard. Very challenging. I mean, I mean, I think I've gotten better at it. Mm-hmm. Definitely. But, you know, I think I'm a controlling person by nature. Virgo, right? Saj. Oh, you're Saj. Why did I think it was September?

I thought your birthday was September when I looked it up. Huh. Okay. Wrong. But I think that. You're like, no. I think that it is, it's so nice to surrender to those things. But, I mean, even with my kids, I don't, you know, I have a 15-year-old daughter. Like, I can't let her be.

Are you crazy? Right. I'm like, you can't wear those shoes out of the house. Right. I should let her, but I just can't. Well, there's certain things. I mean. No, I know.

I know. Teenage daughter. Alone. Yeah. Brings me. I'm going to be there in a few years, so. I'm scared. How old is your daughter now?

10. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, it starts at 13. Yeah. I've been witnessing others. But I have to say I've had a really good ride with her. And I'll tell you why. I went in a different direction at like when she was 11.

And so I was there around and present in a real way for her in very, very critical years. That's amazing. I was not at an office. Right. I was not out late at night. I was not happy about it, but I was there. Yeah. And I think we, you know, our relationship really flourished because I was just available.

Yeah. And I, again, I want to say that I was able to problem solve with her. You know, like I took on, you know, some of the challenges of like preteen. as like, hmm, like, how do we, like, how do we get through this? Or like, who do we cast as your best friend? Yeah, exactly. And let's recast your boyfriend. Yes.

But, yeah, and I think that, you know, as moms, like, we bring a certain energy to the room, you know? And I know that the same energy that I brought to my team while I was at work, which is just, like, big fun energy, I was bringing that back to our house and, and filling up. those rooms with, like, I want to win at this, so let's go, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean. And when I say win at this, I mean parenting. You're like actually both.

I win. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that, at that time, that was just like, well, I want to be good at this.

Yeah. Like you said, what a critical time, though, because the adolescent, you know, getting into puberty, like all those things. And for girls, it's a big transition. Middle school. Middle school stuff. Yeah. One of my best friend's daughter started middle school 13 and like everything I hear. I'm just like, oh my God. I'm so scared. I'm so scared. Take the fear away. Yeah. You just got to glide through it. Right. Right. You were able to be there and be present. I was just there. I was kind of like, okay, well, this sounds better than it was for me. So like you're already ahead. You're two people that are just like your biggest fans in her parents. So. I was like can't be that bad. I mean, we're not like, we're not that embarrassing. I mean, we are. I mean, we all are. We all are. I always tell my son, I'm like, I'm cool. He's like, you're cringe. Yeah. Totally. You're cringe. How old is your son? He's nine. Uh-huh. Your son's nine, right? My son's nine, yeah. And I have to go like, can I have a hug? I don't know what it's like. I know. I just witness her with the boys. I have a question, though. Yeah. Can you watch TV?

Do I? Could you? Like, does it hurt to watch TV? Are you like, I want to cast still? Like, do you still feel like you want to do that? In reference to casting? Oh, my God, I devour television. I love it.

I can't get enough. Will you go back into casting? I believe once a casting director, always a casting director. Okay. And it's a skill set that doesn't go away. It's in my long-term memory and understanding of talent, performance, acting. And I love a good performance, and I love dissecting it, and I love robust conversations about performance. And I sit and, I mean, Max and I talk about it all the time.

And I'll just be like, oh, that scene was so good. Yeah. And not about his stuff, but when we watch. you know, stuff on together. And I'm just like, oh, man, you know, I, it's so, we were watching White Lotus right now, just like everybody. And, oh, my God, we just, we hit pause and we went back and are just marveling at Parker Posey and that southern accent that she is doing, which is so drawn out.

And then she did this one thing, which is like so specific, where she reached her hand out, across to the table to her son and she goes tick on my arm yeah and it was like i've seen that happen before i've seen moms that are just like go ahead you know and it was just it felt so natural and improvved and and just so rich i was like we got to watch that again it's disturbing right yeah it's so good it's like yeah you just want to bottle it and own it and keep watch like i just want to keep watching that forever. Yeah, everything. And, like, I just saw an interview with Leslie Bibb, and they were like, her smile, she was on Fallon or something, and they were like, your smile should win an Emmy because she's doing this, like, crazy smile of, like, a middle-aged woman who is, like,

trying to be cool. And wants to die inside. It's weird. It's so good. But I, I'm so into it. And so, yeah, I can't turn it off. And I, you know, given the right opportunity. I would definitely dive right back in. I love it. I love it. I have like nothing but amazing feelings towards it. And, you know, I think I was an independent casting director, and then I was at the WB for almost eight years,

and then I was an independent casting director for two years, and then I was at my other place, which we will use no name for 11 plus years. And I just, I loved every minute of it. It was just every, both, all of it. You know, being in a casting office, I worked with Colin Daniel and Brett Greenstein. And we just had the best time. And I worked with Greg Orson.

And we just, it was just all such, such great times. And there's just nothing like it. Casting is fun. I know. I'm like, how is it? I'm like, maybe I think maybe this is my direction. Maybe I go that way. Yes.

Like, it just sounds so fun. You know what? I'm going to get a pilot and you're going to be my co-casting director. Yeah. I'm serious. I just want to, can I just sit on every audition? Like, I always say to actors, you know, you have to spend six months in a casting office because it will be the best learning experience on auditioning of what to do, you know,

how casting directors talk about talent. root for talent, give notes, give direction, give adjustments in the room. It's just, it's all, there's just so much to absorb. And, you know, even the first six months that I was, you know, in an internship, I was like, oh, I understand this and I love it. Love it. What is the biggest note that you would give actors if you could as far as, you can go as broad or as specific?

But like, I mean, you know, Once you're on the other side of it, you really do see it's not as personal as it feels to an actor. Right. Right. But what would you say to actors out there? Because auditioning's fucked up. It's really. It really actually is.

It's not a great feeling. And it's not necessarily always conducive to someone being a good actor. I agree. No. There are people that are amazing auditioners. Mm-hmm. and okay, fine actors. And then there are brilliant actors that are terrible at auditions.

Yep. I'm not saying I'm a brilliant actor. I'm just terrible at audition. Which actually, I want to ask both of you, I want to hear your worst audition story. Oh. Oh. I was there with you.

I don't know if I can tell it. Yes, you can. Absolutely. People love to hear, I mean, especially actors. love to hear about another. It humanizes you, and it also makes other people feel less alone. I shit my pants. Literally.

Literally. She shit her pants. Uh-huh. Went, did the audition, got a call back, went to the callback, and told her that I had shit my pants, that I probably did not do good because I had shit my pants. I did not get the rule. Wow. Yes.

A few follow-up questions to that. Was it a drama? Was it a drama or a comedy? We did just get back from Mexico. Was it a drama or comedy? It was a drama. Okay. And while you were waiting in the waiting room, you were like...

I threw away my underwear? No, you were like, I am not going to make it to the bathroom. No. No. Or was it like I'm in the room and this is going down right now. I don't remember. I think it happened like on the way in. It did. We were in the car. Why would I go in though? I remember what jeans you were wearing. Oh, jeez. I don't remember. Because you went in because it was like a big. What was it the movie? No, it was a movie I really wanted. Yeah. Zoe DeChanel got it. Um, well, who's the actor? He has three. I mean, not the actor. Just the director. No, the director that has three names. Paul Thomas Anderson. There might be a green in there. This is my brain. It's okay.

It's okay. We'll get there. All the real girls. Is that what it was? Oh, yeah. That's what it was. Oh, wow. Yeah, that was a great movie.

That's what the movie was. I was really real that day. You would have been great deal. David Gordon Green. Thank you. That's it. You would have been great. Thank you.

I appreciate it. But yeah, I felt the news to tell her. And if you told me, I would be like, you know what? You're getting this job. You deserve it. You deserve it after what you. just been through what you went through? How could I not give it to you? No. How did you tell her again? I think I was like, I shit my pants. Wait, why did you tell her? I don't know. I was like 19, you know.

Okay, wait, hold on. The callback you had gone home and changed, right? No, like, it was that day. Were you still in the shitty pants when you went to the callback? You know what? It did not leave my underwear. My pants were safe. It was the underwear that had to go. Okay. Okay. The pants were fine. Yeah, sure. Went to the audition. Fully clean. No problem.

Okay, got it. Got it. And then, but the callback. Like maybe a week later. Oh, okay. So this was like in the past. In the past. That shit was in the past.

That shit was in the past. I felt the need not only to tell her for no reason. Because I was there at the callback. I didn't need to tell her like I felt like I did a shitty job the first time. But I told her anyways. I can't. It's making me nervous. I know.

And wasn't Olivia Wilde, like the intern at the time? Yes. Oh my God. Yeah. It was a whole family. So when you left the office, she's like, Olivia, get a load of this. She just told me she shed her pants. Yeah.

You know what? It's a good one. She was not very like. But how did you feel about the read? Were you like I nailed it? I don't remember. Okay. Okay.

The only takeaway was that I told her. Okay. That's what really... My personal story. And she was not very... She wasn't amused? Accepting of the information. I felt she was more like, why the fuck are you telling me this?

And I asked myself the same question. And you're like, shit. When I left. I can't take it back. I can't take it back. I can't. I can't take it back. Olivia, what was your worst?

Gosh, I don't... I had so many bad ones. I feel like I had so many. bad ones. There was so many painful ones where I was like, I did it, I got it. That's mine. You know, like those were the worst. I remember one audition where the guy held up my headshot while I was reading. He stopped me from reading. And he held up my headshot and he said, give me this girl. And I was like, like, what does that mean? Right. I think I looked a little bit like a bitch so it's like okay he wants like but that's a lot too for you to define in the moment you know

yeah like who is she to you he was like give me this like I was not doing it right and I left and I cried oh yeah I went to my car and I cried and I was like I can't do this anymore and I got the job are you kidding I got it yeah and it was I remember leaving going to my car and crying and being like, I'm done. Like, I can't do this. It was American Dreams. But can I say that? Because then it's telling the story of the guy that hold up.

Well, we don't know who did it. Yeah, who knows? You don't know. Yeah. You don't know. I don't know. I'll tell you who the best auditions were ever for were Greg Orson. Yeah.

Every time. I'd leave being like, I feel good. Yeah. Yeah, I feel good about myself. You know, I think that is, you know, when casting director, are able to bring out the best in people by just making them comfortable and giving them enough room to kind of, you know, figure it out, you know, and space. Like when they, like an actor stops and it's like, hey, do you mind if I start again? Do you mind if I start over and just, can you

not put that on the tape and like, I got it now? And allowing somebody that space and being like, totally start as many times as you want. Like, I want you to get this right. In our head, we're like, oh, we had to start over. We totally didn't get it. Screwed out. That is such a... We were also taught that. By who?

By like every acting teacher would be like never... And I'm dyslexic too, and I'd have a fear of reading. I still do. Because when you're dyslexic, it's really scary to read in front of people. So I would always try and memorize, and they'd be like, no, you can't memorize. You have to look at the paper. You have to hold the paper. Who told you that?

Acting teachers. And I remember I had an acting coach who was Taylor Sheridan, who is now Taylor Sheridan. Oh, yeah. I know who he is. He was. He was an acting coach. He was amazing. He would give me notes and I'd be like, but this isn't the character.

And he'd be like, trust me. And he would be like every time I did what he said, it would work. It would be the opposite of everything I'd ever learned. That's amazing. It's amazing. You know, I really, if you guys ever want to work out a scene, I would love to. No, there's thing. I feel like we're going to do something live.

I need you. I need so many things that we play with. Oh my gosh. I'm like, we're going to play together. I actually do need you. I need to rack your brain a little bit. Oh, my gosh. I'm not on here.

But I, I was just sitting with a well-known actress the other day watching the, what was just on? I guess the Oscars. Yeah. No. Yeah. I'm sorry. Super Bowl.

Different. Same. Same. Right. Right. Right. Super Bowl party. And she's like, do you have a second?

And I was like, yeah, let's go. And she was like, okay, I'm thinking about leaving this manager and da-da-da-da-da. And she's like, I want to tell you about the self-tape I just did in the project. And I was like, like, give, bring it on. I want to break this down with you. And I was like, if you ever need me to go. I will read with you on tape at any time. I have the whole setup in our guest house to do self-tapes, and I'm like, let's go.

Because it still satisfies me so much, and it's very natural for me to give adjustments, and it's not personal. And like, let's just try to get the best read. And I just, I love it so much. And I get mad at Max because I'm like, like let me put you on tape I'll help you get the job right right and he doesn't take advantage of you

he's like I'm just gonna do it you know like and he doesn't he because I'm too hard on him you're like because I'm too good yeah yeah yeah I yeah I mean if it's a lot of dialogue he he will say

will you work with me on this and I'm like yeah but if it's some weird thing that he can just he can do himself he's he much prefers to do that because I'm so judgmental. Have you ever wanted to be on the other end of it? No. No.

Interesting. No, I do like to out-act the actors I read. Just for fun. That's amazing. Like, that was really good. I sounded good there. Oh, my God, I love it. One time when Max sent in, he did a tape for White Lotus.

and for the Italian season. Oh, yeah. With Aubrey Plaza, he read for one of the guys. And I read for, I mean, I was reading with him. And he stopped at one point and he was like, you really get the tone of this show. He's like, you should go in for this. I know, I was like, and then he sent his tape.

I'm like, did they ask who you were reading? Did they say it was the best self-tape they had ever heard? Because who is that? You know? I just, I did ask for feedback. That is incredible. Why not?

That's amazing. Yeah, so guys. No, I really like, yeah, let's do it. I am, anyway, at the Super Bowl party, I ended up breaking everything down. And then she found me at a basketball game. She said, Tass, I took your advice. I did the da-da-da-da-da. I, you know, because she was saying something about,

I didn't get any, I feel like I'm doing these self-tapes, I'm not getting any feedback. And I was like, it's absolutely appropriate to have your person call and say, what did you think about? I mean, I used to take those calls and be like, here's what I loved about the self-tape. If they're going to do it again, I would say, like, do this, do this. But otherwise, it's perfect and don't, you know. Or let's do it again, you know? Send in, like, the take maybe was not the take that we're looking for. so like let's try it again.

And so I think that is the, like one of the biggest misconceptions is that that these tapes are just going into the abyss. They're not. People are watching them. And your manager or agent should be watching them before they send them in. And then they should be following up with people to say, what did you think? You know, are there any adjustments? You know, should we have them try it again? And I really, I think that you're, you know, you should be asking for feedback.

Because you don't know. You're, when you're alone in your garage and you're doing a self-type, like, you don't know. Yeah. And that's all it is now. I know. I know. So it's so much harder. It's really hard because you just, like there's nothing.

Nothing can substitute being in a room. Right. You know, it's just, you know, I have had the privilege of. of being in hundreds of network tests. And I've seen brilliance, I've seen nerves, I have seen people cry when they've gotten the job. I've just seen, it's such a heightened experience. You can feel the air, people breathing,

and it's just really an unbelievable thing to have witnessed these very human responses to extraordinary stress live with a network and a studio and all eyes on them. And they have five minutes to get this job. Have you ever seen someone shit their pants, though? In the room. Not in the room, but I'm sure the toilets have been fully locked at every place that I've worked. So, yeah, but I've seen people, I've seen.

people just get the giggles and like not be able to pull it together and like we and just be like I can't do this. Do you have an audition story? Like we had our worst or do you have a version of that? Either worst or best. I don't know. Funniest? I can't really pick one except for saying that I've seen.

I've just, I've seen some brilliant, brilliant actors. who we all know and love give extraordinary reads. And it's just been, you know, it's the highlight of my career when you still get the goosebumps. Right. Right. And how close to the script do you like them? Because I remember I was casting a play once because I produced it. So when we cast it, we were casting a jock.

And all these guys came in and they were so hot and good and they were playing a jock. And then we had our friend Scoot McNary come in. who was not a jock at all. I love him. Deerly. He's one of our oldest. I'm obsessed. Yeah, he's incredible.

But he came in. He's not a jock. He didn't read like a jock. He did his own take and we're like, that's him, right? And he showed us something, we had no clue. Oh, that's the best, right?

That is the best. Oh, I love that. I have one more question about this, which is, I don't like the, way it feels in life when I feel like someone wants something from me, that's like an uncomfortable feeling when you're like, is this person really being nice to me or do they want to meet Rachel? Or do they want to, you know what I mean? Like you can really feel when. How does that make you feel?

You're a bargaining chip. Yeah. You're welcome. Yeah. You're welcome. No, but you understand what I'm saying. Oh my God. As a casting director, it's like, how? How do you deal with the feeling of feeling like someone always wants something from you? Or what was that like for you? I feel like that's a precarious situation to be in. I think it kind of ties back to the book in a lot of ways because I was at dinner parties and having like little mini performances, you know, dinner party performances being done for me. I mean, you'd be like, oh.

And I was like, oh, this person's an actor. without saying they're an actor. Oh my God. I can't. And that kind of stopped happening because I didn't have the job anymore. Well, she's doing it right now. Yeah, I'm performing. Right.

I knew it. I want this girl. Yeah. Give me this. Oh, my God. So I. I think it happened for so long. I kind of became immune to it.

You know, at every sort of out-of-state wedding or anywhere you go, anywhere else in the country, like, you ever need any old man to play you? You know, grumpy dad, that's me. You know, like, those are the things that would always get thrown my way. Right. Like, you know, if you're ever looking for a runner,

like, I go running every morning, you know, or whatever the thing was. It just, but I don't know. I think I loved helping people. And one of my biggest joys in life still was giving people their first job. Totally. It fed my soul in a way that nothing else has. And the beauty of the job that I had was I was watching people's dreams come true.

I was saying you're going to be a series regular for the first time. And just this is the beginning of your journey. And I still just, that was such a powerful, fulfilling thing in my life that I loved and watching people's lives change as they experience success for the first time. It's really cool. Very cool. It's a cool feeling. Yeah, it was great. It was really, really great. So for everyone, you know, listening and your book coming out, if you can just say a few things, just like a little summary of the book and why everyone needs to get their eyes on it.

Okay. The book is a collection of essays. It begins with a lot of casting stuff and about my journey into casting. and for people that are trying to learn about casting and how to get your foot in the door, that part will be very helpful. There is a sort of look back at the relationship that I have with Max and what it's like to be with somebody who thought they were a dramatic actor but then turned into a clown in his career and that transition. He's very funny.

He is very funny. Wasn't when we met. You taught him. Yeah. He was like, I'm in a movie called Cross Bronx. So that transition into becoming this really larger than live character Schmidt was really fun to watch. And watching his journey. So great.

And then the book goes into sort of it really dives into the idea of identity and how we as women define ourselves. And the priorities that we have in life. And in my case, this journey was about redefining myself and the many different facets of my life, from being a sister to being a daughter, to being a wife, to being a mom, without having a powerful job in my life. So in that way, it's a lot of self-reflection. And at the same time, my dad is diagnosed with Alzheimer's, and I go through a very sad journey with him of his decline, and then he eventually passes away. And sort of this rebirth that I have, you know, towards the end of sort of like, okay, like this has been a really intense journey. And I wouldn't change anything about it because it's made me a better person. It's made me more empathetic.

It's just really, like, fine-tuned me with other people and who I am in their, like, I'm a better mom. I'm a better wife. I'm a better friend. And I think that I talk a lot about painful favors, which is a phrase I use and that, like, when you really feel like, something in your life is really, really painful and like, where's the, why is this happening and what is the good that's going to come out of this? What opportunity is going to open up when I didn't get that job? You know, why, you know, this, this, you know, when my dad passed away, it's like, you know, what, what am I supposed to be getting from this? And what other things in my life

are going to open up? And that doesn't mean like a window's closed. That means that something's opened and something that I need to pass through. I love that. Yeah. I feel. like that's that either everything's happening for you or against you and you're trying to find the for you and everything. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm really, I'm into this like painful favor of like, you know what? Thank you, universe. Yeah. I've never heard that term. Yeah. It, thank you. Painful favor? Never. Have you? No. I love that. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It really, it, it means a lot to me. My friend actually was the one that, and I talk about him. in the book. He actually gave me that phrase.

Oh, well. Because his mom, who had since passed away, was married to a man. And he, his mom came home and has said, I'm, the husband came home and said, I'm leaving you for your best friend. And she was devastated. But then she went and she met his dad and then had this beautiful family. And so she would say it was the most painful favor that's ever happened to me. I've had those. Don't get with my husband. Right. Yeah. But just sort of like, God, we got to like find the good in here. Yeah. And we got to find the opportunity in the challenging and hard stuff that happens in life. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. We're so excited about the book. Thank you. We're so excited that you were here with us. This has been so fun. So fun. Thank you.

Totally going to take advantage of your expertise. Bring it on, I'm ready. Let's go. This has been amazing. It's really has been. Good. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here.

Can't wait to see all your outfits on the press tour. Oh, thank you. I know. We're going to be clocking them now. We're watching. We're watching. Have you guys ever shit your pants? Not that I know of.

What? What? I don't think so. In your whole life. I mean, probably as a baby. I mean, it probably did it all the time as a baby. Well, definitely as a baby. Are you keeping that in?

I hope so. Please keep it in, Rachel. If Olivia admits. I have. I have. I'm not going down alone. But this is only staying in if yours stays in. Obviously.

Yeah, it's a shit pack. It's a shit your pants pack. It's a shit sandwich. I was going to yoga one day. and I don't know what happened, but something happened. And I was going to yoga and I called our friend Jennifer and I was like, are you home? I have an emergency. And I made her come to the car and give me a shirt, a t-shirt and I had to take my pants off and throw them in the dumpster and then go up to her house and shower.

I have a lot of close calls. This was a call. Yeah, this was. Call of duty. Call to action. Call of duty. Very well played. Thank you. He's 100% going to shit his pants now.

I know. I just find it shocking that you never have. Yeah. I mean, even last night I was talking to Leah and was like, how was your day? What'd you do? And she was like, oh, it was good, you know. I was embroidering on this thing for this person. I was like, I'm sorry. I have to use the best. She was like, you just started. You said, how was your day? And I ran to the bathroom. So I don't know. I feel like I can only do that dance so many times before it happens like in traffic.

It's going to happen. You know what I realized? You know what probably happened to me? So here's the thing. I am for sure allergic to whatever oil they cook things in at sushi restaurants. And when I eat it, I'm almost dying every time. Yeah. Same with Benihana, which I realize with Benihana, I have to say no butter.

And if I say no butter, I'm safe. The garlic butter? But the butter is everything. Not safe. I've been having that issue with sweet green with the salads for some reason, just destroying my stomach. But then I'm over correcting and going like, guess no salads for me? And it's like, well, that's not the solution. No, it's probably a certain oil in their dressings.

Yeah, I think it is. Their avocado or something just mess me up. What? It's so crazy because Benny Hunter doesn't fuck with me. Like I don't get fucked with. really easily at all. No, you don't. And that's only happened once.

I feel like some people shit their pants like regularly. Oh, I know people like every other month, it's like a, hey, we have to reschedule to a different day. Have you ever, oh, this is real dark. This is why I quit drinking. Have you ever accidentally peed in the wrong? place while you're sleeping. You mean like wet your bed? What wasn't my bed?

No, I've told you this story before. It was in your room. It was your room. Your bedroom. You peed my bed? I didn't pee your bed. I peed on your floor. Was I there?

You were not there. I was staying at your house and I had drank too much. And I woke up thinking I was peeing in the woods. Like I could hear it. And then the sound of the pee hitting the hardwood floor woke me up. But I want to say I also peed on your boyfriend

at the Times T-shirt. There was a stack of clean shirts. And I might have peed on him. I did that as a kid. My mom woke up and I slept, walked to my dresser opened a drawer and was peeing on all of my shirts. That makes me feel better.

Yep. Mm-hmm. You've never done that? I've never had. No. I do think it was the alcohol because I've never done it sober. Since? I've never done it since your bedroom and your boyfriend's shirt.

And you laughed at it. What? Los Felis. Los Felis. Yeah. I laughed at it? When I told you. I was like, I might have peed on your floor and the stack of laundry so we rewashed it.

Oh, my gosh. That's really funny. Yeah. I don't remember. I remember being like, I should probably stop drinking. Speaking of stopping, we have to go. Sorry, gang. Kevin has to go to the bathroom.

I have to pee. We're banking a bunch of stuff right now. So enjoy. Also, Rachel's sick. Also, Rachel's sick. I am sick. Not to my stomach. We'll do more talking next time.

Yeah. Bye. Bye. Bye. That was a headgum podcast.