Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Tommy Dorfman

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

This week, Rachel and Olivia get to know the beautiful, real, honest, talented and cool Tommy Dorfman [. From her childhood in Atlanta, to family support and transitioning during a pandemic, to her dating experience, Tommy shares her story with us. We also talk about Tommy’s role in , how she got her name, advice on how to talk to kids about gender identity and more. Enjoy!13 Reasons Why, Insatiable, Sharp Stick]13 Reasons WhySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yellow, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, hear stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room, and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hacks podcast on HBO Max, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Broad Idea.

Welcome to Broad Ideas. I'm Rachel Bilsen. I'm Olivia Allen, and I'm tired. You're Rob. You really missed what we were doing there. What's happening? What? Who are you? And I'm Rob.

Wobby, Wob. I'm Wob. So I I don't know if you told me, Rob, but anyways, when I learned that this person following on Instagram, like, you told me? That was me.

Okay. Good job, Rob. Thanks. I was, like, so flattered and so excited, and I was like, she knows who I am? Big fan over here. Yeah.

You are? You are, Rob. Well, we know Robb's not a big fan of me because he was a fan of Marissa. But anyway, or in Anna. Anna. We learned last week. All the OC gales.

All the OC gals except for summer. It's fine. It's fine, Rob. But learning that she followed me, I, like, freaked out and I DM'd her. When she responded, and, like, I asked if she would come and chat with us. And she was so nice and, like, absolutely. Anyway, I couldn't be a bigger fan. So the fact that she said, I'm always so scared when I, like, reach out to people.

I know. It's weird. Shut up. It's rejection. I'm scared of rejection. But she said yes. And we get to talk to her today. Very exciting. Very special. The lovely Tommy Dorfman. Sometimes when the way inside of Rachel's little brain, all these thoughts are swirling round and round inside to join us on this journey as we take a little brain. We'll talk about dogs and kids and things. We'll talk about chicks and tampon strings.

We'll talk about boys that'll make you... Because people die. Um, first of all, thank you so much for doing this. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. Are you kidding me? Well, when I saw that you followed me on Instagram, like, I almost threw up. Like, I was so excited.

I mean, when you DM me, I actually did a little bit. That's the highest compliment. I was like, what am I supposed to do now? And then I was like, I'm going to be late for her. Oh, I'm so sorry. No, seriously. Olivia here, who you're meeting. Hi.

She was like, it was like 10 minutes to one. And she's like, you know, we record at one. And I'm in the kitchen making my daughter lunch. Like, just, you know, going about my day. I mean, I'm literally at the bike store. My fiance's bike got stolen yesterday. And she was out of town. So I was like, let me surprise you with a new bike.

because I told her it got stolen and she's like, that's her only mode of transportation. So she was obviously devastated. So I was just like in the bike store like, ooh, what about these pink candles? And Francescoa my assistant was like, hey, what's your ETA? You're going to be here in one minute.

I was like, oh, so sorry. Let's see how this bike is. Yeah, exactly. Just threw it in the trunk. This like lovely Hasidic man, help me load my car. Oh my gosh, you actually did. about running. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm, this is me running away from you. Yes.

This is it. Oh, my gosh. Is that not the worst when you're trying to get out of somewhere and you just find the talker of the century? Well, I mean, New York. They either want to, like, yell at you and not talk to you or like, trap you. Right. In a corner forever. Yeah. How long have you lived in New York? On and off for 12 years. Oh, wow. Yeah. I came here for college. And then I tried out like starting in 2017 and I had a place there for four years. And then last year I gave that place up and just fully committed back to New York. I get that. Where did you grow up?

I grew in Georgia in Atlanta. How was that? It was fine. It was great actually in a lot of ways. It was bad in all the obvious ways that like growing up in the South would be bad. But otherwise it was great. And like I could see myself moving back there maybe if I don't just like leave America. Right.

which is very much on the table at this present moment. But we'll see you. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, it was a cool place. I don't know if you never worked there. I have. If you can find community there and like where to eat and like the basics of living really anywhere, right? I wouldn't be like, yeah, come here on spring break.

That would be awesome. Blossom, come here. Wait, is that your dog? Yeah, Blossom. I want to see Blossom. Is it Blossom? named after the TV show Blossom? You're probably too young to know that show?

I've never, I haven't seen it. I was going to say. But she's named after Blossom Deary, who's like a very dead old singer from like the 50s. Okay, great. Who's like a very dead person? She couldn't be more dead. God, I really, actually, I hope she is dead.

Like, I should check that? Can you run that real quick? No, I still do she writes, the sweetest love song. in the world. They're like two minutes long. They're just like these like doopi fucking like I don't know. I don't really know. I'm not I'm not like a cool music person, but I do listen to Boston Derry. And when I met my person, we would send each other a lot of songs and I sent our Boston Dairy song and then it just became the name of this song. Aw, that's so sweet. I feel like when you fall in love, that is the first sign is when you want to share music or songs.

Yep. Yeah, I guess so. I have never. had that experience before. Really? And I was like an Apple music person, for example, and then I got converted to Spotify. Same. Apparently, I was fresh. Yeah. I mean,

having Apple Music, I don't know. But yeah, so, but either way, you should, after this, she died in 2009. Yes, yes, you see that? She died as a Pisces, but what was she? Yeah, she died as a Pisces, but what was she born into? Um, so you go, you go to heaven

or hell on it as the sign you die as. No, I think Boston dearie please listen i don't know i just came up with that right now oh that's not like a thing no but it should be a thing like if you die as a scorpio you're like in no that's a sex pit of we could probably start a cult based on this lie that i just told you uh 100% we could what time are you um i'm a tourist my mom's a tourist may 13th what are you i'm a vergo i'm a librette one of my best friends is may 13th Actually, no. You're wrong?

That's my wedding anniversary. I was like, I know. I was like, there are a few of us. May 13th? That's my wedding anniversary. Yeah, I share a birthday with Blake lively and Regis Philbin. And may he rest in peace. How dead is he.

I wonder what sign he died as. Blake is so nice. That's a nice person to share birthday with. Yeah, mine's Elena Dunham, who is one of my best friends. Rob Pattinson. Oh, Rob Pattinson. Who is not one of my best friends. but we love to see it.

I don't know. We've had a few times. I think C-Sys was like a lovely, very attractive person. Very talented. Yeah, I'm in Ribi. I think it's out in theaters now. So I guess I would be in trouble

if I didn't plug that. Yeah, absolutely. Go see Sharp's deck. I thought you were talking about a partner. My part is like the... No, no, no. What's your partner? I'm still stuck on the sign.

Oh, we can't get her out of. She's an Aries. Oh, love that. My mom and dad, Aries. Really? Yeah, deeply intense. My daughter's... Your daughter's in Arias? No, my daughter's a Scorpio, but her dad's in Ariz.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you did the movie with Lena, and... Wait, is that one that Christine Prosseth is in or no? Yeah, yeah, she's in it. She's so good. How amazing is she? She's incredible. I love her. Yeah, she's like one of the most present people I've ever met in my life. Yeah, and she's so talented.

That's furlessly, so talented. Well, I'm so excited to see the project, and I'm a huge fan of Lena. Me too. Donams. Like, she's just, I mean, talk about talent. So you said you found your person. Yeah. Are either you married right now? I'm married right now. Okay. May 13th is your wedding anniversary. Of how long? Casper was just asking me and I'm like, I think five years. I don't know because we had a kid before getting married. It might six years. So that's really cute. I like that. Yeah. So we just kind of don't really think about dates much or anniversaries or we're just like in it, you know? How old is your kid?

I have two kids. One is six and one is three. Do you want kids? I do at some point. Not today. You have a puppy. Yeah. And I think when I have kids, it's like I want to be a very present parent. So I want to be in like a situation that allows that for me. Right.

If I want to take, you know, time off and thinking so that I right now, I just don't feel like you fight there. Yeah. No, you're very young. You got plenty of time. It's a lot of work. Yeah. I'm the youngest of five. I don't know how. You are? I am and I don't know how they did that. It's intense. It is.

It is. Kids is nuts, really. It's a lot of kids. So you have brothers or sisters or? I have one sister and three brothers. Okay. They're all in Atlanta. They all have kids.

And she was talking to my niece this morning because she's 12 and she wants to be an actress. Oh, boy. What advice did you give her? Well, like, I don't. I think a month ago, she texted me about wanting to have an agent. And she and her parents were like, what is this? Like, so today was the call about like, what does an agent do? And what is an agent? Because no one of my family is in this industry. And I was like, I would love to know, actually. What does an agent do? So we just talked to some of that. And I was like, I would never tell anyone to do this. No. Would you ever tell anyone not to?

No, I don't think that's really my job either. I'll be honest with someone if they ask what it is or what it's like, right? I mean, I probably would be the type of person who, like, if I was an acting class with somebody and they were like really bad, I would probably, if I was a teacher or something, I would probably be like, why don't, like, why? Right. But one time I did actually broach that topic with an acting teacher of mine when I was my early 20s and 30 now in Vance.

I love Vance. And I was like, so what's going on? Because I've been in class with these people. We've been in this class for a year. And like, why? Why? Like, why do you? And he was like, you know, people are here for different reasons.

Yeah. And I was like, absolutely. And from that moment on, I was like, okay, it is not my job to tell someone to do this or not do this or dictate why they're here. I mean, across the board, honestly. If I could just remember that, that would be great. I know. Because I have that problem.

I do too. I have a problem where I want to control things. Yeah. everything. So the thing is, so my neat, she called me, it's like a few months ago and she was like, I'm an audition for this like summer teen theater program and would you be down to listen to my audition songs? And I was like, oh God, sure, can't wait, no idea where this could go. Like, it could be so good. It could be so bad. I have no idea. And then she's a very like, shine kind of ancillor kid. And so in my head, I was like, well, it's going to be rough for me.

So I was like, yeah, just call me. And so they were like, well, FaceTime me when I was like, oh, my God. Okay, so I'm going to have to like really reel it in. She was so good. Oh. Which was great because I would have had to do like the thing where you put the phone down because you're just like, oh, fuck. Like, I can't have no poker face.

But she was actually really good. So I was like, okay, go off. Yeah. That's really sweet though that she came to you. Really cute. Yeah. But I also, I don't know. I didn't start working until I was 25. So I don't know the experience of like.

Well, when did you? you get into it or when did you decide that's what you wanted to do? I mean, I think I always wanted to do it. I just had some like life stuff to figure out and I went to college for acting. And while I was there, I was still like deciding while I was there and I was living in New York. It wasn't like that I want to do it. It was like, could I do it? Right. Like, try to be honest with myself. Like, would I be okay with this taking 10 years? Yeah. Or however long. And that was actually a question they asked me. They were like, how long do you think it'll take? Like, if it's like six months and she hasn't booked something and I was like,

Oh. Oh, babe. Well, like, one, she's a fetus. So, like, what's the rush? And pray that she doesn't book something for five years. Yeah. And, like, it goes to school and, like, does things. But for me, once I sort of came to terms with that, at the end of college, I was like, okay, no, I'm actually going to pursue this thing.

I was like, I guess, like, 21, 22 when I really made that decision. And then I was 20, I just turned 24 when I got my first job. What was your first job? It was 13 reasons why. It was. It was your first job. Dude. From like basically an open call.

Wow. Wow. Wow. Such a good part too. Such a freak show. Yeah. I mean, it was like, it was so much fun. It was great.

It was like summer camp. I mean, I'm sure you had this experience. I don't know if you worked before the O.C. No. The O.C. was my first. Yeah. Like big job. Like similar.

You were really young. Were you? I was 21. 21. Oh, no, that's great. The 21's like a reasonable age. 21 is I feel like when I really felt like I started to sort of make some like adult decisions. Right.

There was like a turning point for me around 21. Yeah, I was grateful that I was 24. Yeah. And that was the job. And I didn't know what I was doing on the show. It wasn't a series regular at first. I was a co-star at first because I didn't have agents or like anyone negotiating on my behalf. So I think it was just like, they were like, oh, we can get you for $4 and you're not going to have any idea what's going on.

Right. And then like a couple episodes in, I'm getting talking. to about stuff I'm doing later. And I was like, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, how much are you you doing? And I was like, why am I making a thousand dollars an episode? And I'm in every episode. And then, you know, like press and promo stuff. And I was like, oh, so then when we went back for season two, I had a little bit more leverage. But at the time, I was just like so excited to be working and still so grateful for that opportunity. Were you mad at your character? When you publish the poem? When I published the poem? When you fucking poem?

Oh, I think. Like, did you judge your character? Were you cool? Like, what? I try not to judge my characters. I get in my own way. I'm going to get really aftery with you. Yes, I was watching it.

I'd be like, wow, that's a really, like, uptight care. Who's, like, not well. Who, like, could really use a drink and, like, have some fun. And maybe, like, get fucked. Yes. But, which is a weird thing to say about a teenager. I'm sorry. Like, I came out really wrong.

But you weren't really a teenager. But I was playing that role and I was 24. And, like, of course, there was that side of it. But I think for me, I believe that even if you're a villain, you think that you're doing the right thing. Well, you don't think of yourself as a villain, right, when playing a villain. And actually, I don't think my character was that villainous. I think my character was just, like, really honest. Yeah.

But unfortunately, like, unfiltered honesty doesn't get you very far. And, like, that's sort of the lesson maybe that Ryan learned by the end, whatever the end was. was like, oh, you can't really live life by like running people over and like making decisions on their behalf. Circle back what we were talking about. That's it. Yeah, because it's your honesty is different than someone else's honesty. A hundred percent. And I don't think, I don't think she, like, all my characters have all transitioned. I don't think, I don't think Ryan transitioned. I think he just genuinely thought what he was doing was going to like liberate her in some way and free her and like excavate parts of herself that needed to be seen

and even like protect her in some way and like give her a sense of confidence when in fact it sort of obviously was a betrayal of trust. Yeah. Because I wondered that. I'm like, how did you feel about that when that happened because we're so like kind of we're rooting for you and in with you and being like, yeah, she does need to explore all these things. And then, you know what I mean?

And then it... Teen shows are so funny. I feel like it's such a nice right of passage to have like come through a teen soap opera. I don't know if you feel this way, but it feels like anytime I've met other people who've had that experience for like,

oh, hello. You know what this is like. Yes. We're one of the same. Kind of. Yeah, well, it's pretty surreal. And like the show was hugely successful and popular and obviously launched.

I think it's still like top five most watch shows of all time for that much. Yeah. Which is crazy. So you went. from, you know, the open call for this and then to the whole world opening up to you. Yeah.

And all this is happening, while a lot in your life was like, you know, transforming and becoming, you know, all this other stuff was happening at the same time, right? So you're in the spotlight. I mean, I don't know if you felt like when stuff started picking up in that way, your anonymity was being negotiated or your privacy was being negotiated. For me, I feel like I kind of got stuck in time for a minute. Like, I actually had to put a lot of,

stuff that I maybe thought I was going to work on or thought I would do or like personal developmental things. I kind of like had to compartmentalize those things and put them away. Right. So when it came to like anything around like dysphoria or gender or stuff that had already been really present, I was like, nope, like that's not for now. Like I'm working. Yeah, but you've kind of talked about how you didn't make some declaration and you kind of were just going through this personal thing on your own. Well, yeah. And I would say like in those early years of working, I was just trying to understand. I think if I hadn't booked that job, I would have started transitioning a lot sooner.

Okay. I think because, like, my work being so tied to my body and, like, face and, like, identity or, like, whatever I had been identified as, it delayed some of my growth and some of my, like, maturation in my mid-20s. That makes sense. And I also think I made decisions that were just not aligned with who I really was or what I really wanted, but, like, out of fear. Right.

I probably got married for the first time now upon reflecting on it for safety, because it felt just like a safe, secure space that I could carve out for myself in a world that was, like, ever-changing. And I was just, like, dealing with other stuff that I didn't really know about yet. Did you kind of know? Like, did you feel like your whole life you knew you identified more as a woman? You know what I would say is I always felt like I was never the right age, which I don't think is entirely true. I think that was just like my way of, like, understanding that, like, oh, I was maybe never in the right place. I always felt like I wasn't the right place at the right time. I always felt like I wasn't really meant for the world that I was living in.

You know what? People are like, I should have been born in the 80s or something. I always had that feeling. Oh, interesting. And then when I started transitioning, I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm like totally meant for this body. I'm meant for this time. I meant for this world. I just, like, was wearing a sweater that was three sizes too small.

Right. For 28 years. Aren't you sober as well? I am sober, yeah. Yeah, and I feel like, because I remember when I first got sober. She's sober 11 years. Yeah. I told my mom, like, the only way I can explain what I'm feeling.

is I'm really homesick, but it's not for this planet. It's like you get dropped off as a kid and you're like, when is someone coming to get me? I feel that is so true. Having had both experiences, I was 21 when I got sober. And I actually often described my first year of transition as my first year of sobriety. It was like doing my birthday for the first time, doing Christmas for the first time, going to a party for the first time, going on vacation for the first time, like all of those milestones in early sobriety. I felt like how to do all those things. again, but like as a woman. Right.

And every day, it still feels that way because as my body takes a new shape and a new form, like more organically, just simply from like hormones, right? And like life, I'm then confronted with new challenges of whatever that is, whatever being like more passing is. But there's also like an inherent safety thing that I'm always coming up against. It's like, you can imagine that. But it's very, it's very similar to my first year and sobriety. it feels like very odd and confusing and every day it feels stuck.

Yeah, because you're here. Yes, because I think if you're living with dysphoria, it's not so dissimilar to like living, like, actively in alcoholism or addiction. You're living in a fall. You're like living underwater, basically. For me, I always felt like other people had a guidebook for life that I just know. And I'd always be like, how did you know to brush your teeth twice a day? That's crazy.

Or like, you know how to make a bed or like, just like these simple basic human things. Yeah. that were just were not available to me. Yeah. Or like emotions. I was like, oh, you feel emotions outside of acting? That's weird. Acting thought it was like the only way I could feel things until I started transitioning.

And then it was like, boom. Oh, that's beautiful. Wow. I'm happy for you. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. I think it's incredible in how just everything, obviously, in this day and age and how

beautiful it is that, you know, people have you to look up to and admire. And, you know, there's so many people that I think are still in that fog. And I think it's beautiful to have an example like yourself and how successful you are and beautiful and all of it. Thank you. Did your family support everything? That's great. I'm really lucky. I would attribute any and all my success to my family in a lot of ways because even if it's like simple successes, like the small things.

Even this idea that like I could be an actor or like could be a filmmaker, like could do these things that felt so far away in Georgia with my parents. who work in the car industry, they were always like, sure. It's not to say that there weren't some conversations. I think when anyone transitions or anyone has a, you know, it's like if you have a baby, everyone in your life shifts and changes to like you now being a person who's mom. I think the stakes are different and circumstances are different. And I think like the society expectations of us are different.

But I think ultimately when you're thinking within your core unit of people who love you and support you, they kind of have to come out with you in whatever way, shape, shape, or form you choose to come out. I don't know if your parents are in this industry, but it's like, I would imagine... My dad's side is, yeah. But still, like, whenever you became famous, it changes your family time, right?

It changes probably more so maybe if you didn't grow up in L.A., but I think, like, any of those things can change the way to other people relate to you or speak on your behalf. And so I think my parents had to confront a lot of that within, you know, extended family and community and, like, workplace stuff. And they then had to sort of come out with... Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Which makes sense. Yeah. It takes time. And I'm just grateful that they were really willing to listen and learn and like willing to like not be right all the time. It's hard. Yeah. Always hard. And similarly, I had to be patient with that and be like, okay.

Right. I wish you would just get this now. I think I feel really grateful that all of these things are things that I've done with more autonomy and like more independence because it's given me. freedom to do things the way I want to do them. You know, your brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews, right? So, like, how is that, you know, with the kids or was there a certain way, like, you know, to talk to them or did you talk to them? Kids are so funny. I think they're just like, okay. Right. Right. Yeah.

I mean, you know, it's like, I have a bunch of nieces and nephews and they're just like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, like nothing, right? Literally like nothing. I did not talk to anyone other than my parents and my core siblings and a couple cousins, I sent an email. That very specifically was like, no need to respond. Just letting you know, this isn't a conversation.

Like, I wasn't opening the door for conversation. I was just like, hi, this is the deal now. Hope you're all safe and well. Sorry, COVID sucks. Please do not respond to this email. If you have questions, use the internet. Literally, I was just like, best of luck.

Not like about me, just like if you're like, what is trims? I don't need to answer to this for this video. Like, there's, right. you live near a library, if you choose to not use the internet. Like, they're so, and I would say this to, like, anyone about most things that are, like, sensitive. Right.

You think if someone is dealing with your health thing, like, you don't need to ask them all about it all the time, unless it's like this kind of thing and we're choosing, right, to participate on that. Yeah. But I think, like, at the time, I was like, yeah, you know, my time is not going to be spent well if I'm just, like, fielding questions and calls from family members who may or may not totally get. Mm-hmm.

Well, it's kind of like when everything. thing went down and people were doing the Black Lives Matter and then everyone started reaching out to their black friends being like, educate me and they're, you know, certain people are like, hey, like, you can read a book. Like, you can learn about this stuff too. It's not my job to educate you on what this is. Right. Is it annoying? Not the family and all of that, but like even in this conversation, because Rachel and I talked about it before. Right. Like, of course, like all the questions you think of, and you're like, well, what is okay? You know what I mean? What's okay? What's annoying? What are you sick of talking about? Yeah. With anything else, I'm sure it just depends on the day.

You're like, I don't want to talk about this or I don't. I think for me, it's like, I've had moments, of course, where I'm like, ugh, so, like sick of time. I'm like, I'm like, I'm personally, obviously, I'm like sick of hearing my own voice talk about these things. But then there's other sides of it where it's like, well, who's ever listening to this podcast might not have had exposure to me through other avenues. You might be getting this from a different point of view. And so if that's what's interesting to you and this is your floor, really, right? But I'm like, I'm like a guest in your living room, if you will, on the internet.

Then I know, unless I like prior to this was like, absolutely not. I pretty much am 100% certain those are questions that are going to come up. I get both sides of that. Yeah, you do interviews and it's like the same things over and over again. But you're like, oh, well, this person hasn't heard this. Or, you know, maybe they have or whatnot. But also, it's kind of like speaking at a meeting. You're like, this isn't about me anymore.

I'm showing up so that the one person in the room that may need to hear what I had to say. Exactly. So it's like you might have to qualify 150 times in your life or whatever. If you're 12 stop. But it'll be different each time. I can see the glass half empty version of this is like, and I have these moments from like, it really is like so shitty

that I have to transition publicly. Even if I disappeared and didn't work, it wouldn't really matter because I'm at a certain point. And frankly, just because I'm transitioning, just like anyone else, like, I'm not in a financial position. I'm not to work.

I need to work. I want to work. And I love working. I like telling stories. And I like doing these things. So it took me a few years after starting my career to figure out how I was going to do this

in a way that I felt okay with and to also just accept certain realities of that choice as they are because this is just the hand of cards have been dealt, right? And I think rather than fight that, which I was trying to do for a period of time, I ultimately just had to decide that this is just the life that has chosen me or the life that I've chosen. Like, whatever way you want to, I'm just like, well, this is it? This is how it's going to go? And is there a part of me that really wishes for like a completely anonymous transition where I could like move to a different city and get a different job and have nobody know me before

not be Googledable, sure, or start my career after, of course, right? Like, it sucks to, like, go to my Wikipedia page and it'd still be a picture of me as a boy from 2017 because, for whatever reason, Wikipedia can't change my fucking picture. It's very much the reality of my circumstances. And I remember I was dating another famous person for the first and last time I'll ever do that last summer. Fuck, nightmare. I mean, male actors are. Oh, wow.

Especially successful. So I was the first time I'd ever dealt with any type of public attention. It was also a really vulnerable time in my life. And I just remember feeling like so mad that I didn't have the sweet space that I had had during COVID. That really is my transition where I had full control over how my body was viewed, how I was talked about, what I talked about. I very intentionally haven't worked since shooting Sharp Sons. as an actor. I've been doing a bunch of other stuff

because I don't want to immortalize my body in those ways right now. I do now. Now I'm kind of getting ready but actually won't be able to until next year because of other stuff. But it just was an interesting experience

of being like, oh. And then I was really freaking out because I'd never dealt with paparazzi. I never dealt with any of those things. I felt like a really vulnerable time to have to deal with that stuff for the first time. And I called a friend

and I was like who has dealt with a lot of this stuff for many, many years. I was like, this is so fucking shitty. She's like, yeah, you know, I totally. totally hear you. And also probably great for like whatever random trans kid

in like Baltimore or fucking Minnesota to look at her mom's us weekly and see your photo at it. That's right. Yeah. And I was like oh, fuck you. But then you're like, right, okay, great. Last half full. Like

I have a very, very rare opportunity to be an example of this to people, right? And I'm one example. I'm not the example by any means, I just have like a unique experience of transitioning, having already had a life publicly. Right. Which not that many of us have.

I think it makes it very powerful. Yeah. I think so. I like to think so on good days. On other days, I'm like, oh, God. Yeah, but I think like, you know, here's like a really stupid, like minimal example. But there's someone famous. They've been out there.

They had a huge mole on their face, right? They get it removed. No, I'm serious. Literally. I know. She's looking at me like I'm crazy. And at first you're like, they're like, oh, they totally remove that mold, you know?

And then time goes on and you're like, you don't even remember it was there. Is this a real person? Or is this a metaphor? It's both. I was thinking of the one the own name. The what? Sarah Jessica Parker.

Hello? Okay. That's what I was thinking about. Yeah. No, I think that's true. By the way, people are going to be like, you're like comparing a transition to a mole. No, no, no, no, but I'll advocate for you.

And I'll back you on that because I think, I hope it's not that big of a deal. It is that because this is you now. And in the public eye, and that's everything you see and obviously was Sharpstick. Was that your first role as a female character?

Sharpstick was, it was like, Lena was shooting that movie and asked me if I wanted to play for a day. like, come on, just play this role, knowing that I was like early in my transition. And I was like, actually, I think it might feel really good to like have my first experience, even though people don't know that I'm transitioning necessarily, be with my best friend and like people that I trust and people that I've already have relationships with. Like, you know, I already knew a lot of the other people who were in the movie at the time.

So I was like, great. And my scenes were with people I'd already met really before and think she was great and cost to. It's just like everyone was so great. And I knew that I would be protected by her in that situation because she really advocates for safety. crossed the board in her work. Yes, it was the first experience I had and it felt really nice. And then I was like, okay, I got to step out of this for a minute and figure out what do I really want to do. I feel like what you did, one of the things my mentor always tells me is like, we turn our half-toes into get-toes. Yeah, I think about that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I get two.

And there'll be things that are mind-blowing where I'll be sitting there and I'll be like, can I use that in this instance? Like I was with my kid at the hospital and it hit me. And I was like, I get to be with my kid in the hospital where I could be like I have to, right? Just like you're talking about with the transitioning and taking that glass half empty and turning it half full. And it's like I get to transition in front of people. And like, I don't know, even the little things of like how it's still a picture of you. As a boy, I'm like, well, what if it wasn't?

And like, what if someone saw you today and they looked you up and it's all you and your beautiful woman glory? Would that pull in the kid that needs the permission? Right? Like, there's like little, I still want them to change your picture if you want your picture change. I mean, so badly. Come on. I think that's why I haven't archived all of my Instagram, you know. And, you know, your name, which I read.

which was beautiful that you, you know, kept Tommy. Yeah. Similarly to that, I felt there were other trans people who haven't changed their name and some of them I talked to when I was early in my transition. And they gave me permission similar to how I hope I give other people permission in the same way. Or like show that there's not, I think there's a misconception that transition is like a destination that it's black and white when in fact it's like a verb and it's really active and it's present and it's an evolution of self.

We're all evolving. We're all transitioning and a myriad. out of ways. We're getting married. We're getting divorced. People are dying. Things like rupture and fracture our lives across the board through different experiences. And I think I just needed to see and hear that other people did this differently than I thought I had to. Right. Right. And I think that to me has been such a gift. And then I get to pass on my experience. And then sort of like, and so the story goes on and on and on and on. Yeah. And you were named after your uncle, right? Yeah, it was named after my uncle who I, oh, he's right here. You want to say him.

And that's me as a baby. Oh, that's so sweet. It's really cute. Yeah, that's in 1992. So it's like maybe two weeks before he died. Wow. Of cancer. So he already knew he was dying. I always think that would be like such a crazy experience to hold a newborn knowing that you're going to die. You're going to die. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, you know, it just. I love them. I think it's just how important to me. It felt like a thing that there are a few things in my past that I want to like hold on to, to be honest. And that was one of them. Yeah. I'm not always such a sentimental person. You know, sometimes I wish these things were video recorded because watching you and holding that picture and feeling what comes forward for you during that is really moving. And you can tell it's like completely in your heart chakra. And for whatever reason, this person, and deeply affected you. You can see that.

I mean, I'm sort of of the like, ghosts are real, if we had to simplify it world, where I'm like, oh, no, like, I feel like very connected to parts of my ancestry and I feel very not connected to other parts of it. That's fine.

To me, I've always felt like this really intense, like I've been, like, cared for by this person. Your angel. Yeah, very much. I'm like, that's my... Anytime, like, when I moved to L.A., everyone was like, do you want a tarot card reading?

Like, you know, it was like, hey, have you ever thought of, like, talking to your dead grandma? And you're like, oh, yeah. And, like, at, like, some, like, weird Hollywood fucking Halloween party. And there's, like, 17 different, like, oracles there. And you're like, oh, sure, I'll go into this room. But every time anything like that has ever happened to me or where I've, like, called on whatever, I've, like, had a session with someone in that space, which is not, like, a regular person. Like, I do it maybe, like, once or twice a year in different ways that are interesting to me.

or the same person I do once a year now, which is really fun. But every time that's ever happened or occasionally a very, like, spiritual masseuse, would be like, oh, you've like a lot of angels around you. And I'm like, they all say the same thing. And I'm like, oh, yeah, no, I think it's, maybe they say that to everybody. But I'm like, no, I think it's just like the same one. Yeah, it's my uncle. She's my dad uncle.

He's just here always. He's just always here. We're by me. Yeah, I think there's so many things that make me believe in a higher power, if you will, right, that have happened in my life. like so many scenarios in which like I should not have survived or should have gone way worse or happenstance or serendipitous things or manifested thing, whatever you want to call it. But I can't not believe there's like somebody sort of just like pushing me a little bit

in different directions and just helping guide me and also letting me make these big mistakes and learning from them. So yeah, I love him. Yeah. Well, we can feel it for sure. You know, when we said if you say anything and then you go back and think about it later, I can't stop thinking about the mole because it sounds like I'm minimizing so much and I wasn't. No, no, no, no, no. I don't know. I know, but you know how you do that? You get in your head?

Of course I do. You literally all the time. No, I think it's better. I actually think I appreciate whatever if you want to call it minimizing because I think so often people like tipto around trans stuff with me or they're like, oh, it's so. And sometimes you're like, no, it's just like I had my mold remit. It's like, that's so.

Okay, I love it. Great. So I'm actually grateful because I think, like, I would much rather someone take that point of view. Okay, cool. The growing experience of, like, the trauma that you must deal with. Right. It's like, no, I just like popped an estrogen pill and called it a day. Like, let's move on. I mean, I wish it was wonderful.

I actually just gave myself a shot for the first time. She was so. Oh, you have to give yourself. You do it yourself? Well, so no, so I was like taking pill form estrogen, which is like the same as like, you know, menopausal women take or whatever too. Right. And then I was like, I want to try shots because it can, it's just a different experience.

I don't know how to give shots. I've never even played a doctor on TV or anything. So I was like, I've played a doctor. I could do it for you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I believe in you. I believe you could.

My fiance, she knew how, so she did it for me the first few times. And then she was out of town and I was like, oh, no. So we FaceTime. She walked me through it. Aw. And I just like, didn't. Yeah, you just got to do it. Wait, can I ask you?

So your fiancé, she, is she a transgender? Is she a woman? No, no, just a woman. Just a woman. Gay girl. Gay girl. Just a gay girl. There's something really distracting.

Sorry, I want you to go back to what you were saying. Your arms are so. I'm an arm person. And like the whole time I'm like, I'm listening. Trust me from my heart. No. I'm looking at... Also, don't.

Don't. Don't listen. Just look at my arms. No, but you have such beautiful arms. What do you do? This is a tangent. I do very little, to be honest. You do.

I mean, one, I was a boy for many years who worked out a lot. And I was a valid answer for many years. And so I have a certain level of tones and girth that I cannot get rid of. It's gorgeous. Actually, you complimenting my arms makes me feel really good because I'm really you for it because it's the thing that I'm probably, inarguably, the most self-conscious about. Because I feel like my shoulders are too broad.

My arms are too big. They look kind of fat. No. I'm very careful about what I wear and how I pose and like I'm on a right carpet or I'm doing whatever editorial or a campaign or something very, very, very self-conscious about my arms. Oh, wow. Isn't that funny? Yeah.

Because that's my main thing too. Absolutely. Your arms are beautiful. So all I look at in people is arms. Like I'm an arm person. And the whole time I'm just like, the beautiful, you're so gorgeous. Like your broad shoulders and their tone and then.

Goes to show you what you think and what you see in your own mind. It's just your own fucking bullshit projecting out your eyeballs, which is just not the truth. It's so important for people to hear that. It really is, though. It's important for people to hear that. that like the things that they're walking around thinking they're being judged for or aren't perfect or aren't great

are the things we are looking at being like, I love that. Yeah, like, damn. I wish I had those. It's just the lies of the mind. Yep. The lies of the mind. It really is.

And I actually, so I, so in last fall, I was like still kind of in L.A. had just got a place in New York, like a temporary rental. And it's just like trying to figure out what I was doing with my life. I'd just gone through like a harrowing relationship experience with this boy. I was just like in recovery from like the emotional abuse of that situation and I was like, what do I do now? And I became friends with someone,

another sober person. We met like a raise this like dive bar in New York and we like hit it off. I was like what's going on really? Having a flirtation, it's like so hot like surfer bro like straight from San Diego from like Orange County San Diego area. I don't know if something around that area.

And then when we all were in L.A. for around Thanksgiving or something I was like, come over like. like, when I have, like, a pool party at my house or whatever before I got ready of it. And I was like, yeah, like, come over around, a pool party. And that night, we went to, like, a bar and he was like, I just have to say, look really good. And I was like,

and he was like, I don't want to be, like, inappropriate, but, like, do you have, like, the hottest arms? Yes. See? And I was like, really? I hate my arms. I feel like, they're gross. He's like, no. And I was like, okay. We never actually hooked up or anything.

And then I brought him to a friend's birthday, and we were in the kitchen of this birthday. And it was like a month later, and he was like, when do I get my first Tommy kiss? And then we kissed. And then I was like, I got to go. I walked away. You don't know. I was like, I think I kind of like crushed his ego a little bit in that moment because I was like, okay. Like we kissed. And then I just left him in the kitchen. And then I went to my friend who is just like a cis girl, Halana.

And I pulled her in the bathroom when I was like, It was her birthday. I was like, Alana, I don't know what just happened. And then I walked away. And she was like, you walked away? I was like, yeah, because I don't think he likes me like that. She was like, guys don't just do that. And I was like, I don't know, man.

Like, I don't think she was, I was like, he's like really straight. Like, I've dated straight guys before, but like he's like, I don't know. Like, he's really like into pussy super straight. Like, I don't think he would know what to do. Like, she was like, I'm telling you. No one says that to you unless they're like romantically interested. Ever. 100%.

But then I could never. couldn't pick it, I couldn't pick it back up. Was he too straight for you? No, I was just too self-conscious and I was too insecure and I wasn't ready. You told yourself, you're like, there's no way and he fully was like, kiss me. Like, couldn't be more forward.

I know, I'm a fucking idiot. And then, but you know what? Things happen for a reason because like, not even a week later, I met the person I'm going to spend the rest of my life. So I think my body was just like, No, not this. Right.

That's a shiny thing. We're still really good friends. But my dad always would be like, don't get distracted by shiny things on the way to find your dream, Tommy. Oh, yeah. Race horses don't win by looking at other horses. And so... I love it.

And then, like, send me like 14 TikTokan books. And so he's like the most, like, you would not expect, like, this Jew from the South who, like, works in the car industry to, like, be sending you Tara Brock podcasts. That's amazing. Meditations of sorts. But you would absolutely love my dad. He's fucking icon and legend.

All my friends wanted to fuck him and I was like, what is wrong with you? He's just like the coolest. But, you know, I felt like, I wasn't sure if I was ready to even like date anyone and I knew that if I entertained this person because of like sobriety stuff, it would be really intense. We already knew way too much about each other

to like start a relationship, you know, just because of sobriety in ways. Like we just were like, let me tell you about all my drugs. Like, let me talk about the 10 times I was raped. Like, there's like all this information that's just like not sexy all the time. But like really like you're supposed to come out like a year in maybe. So I just was like, I think I kind of just knew. I was like, that's a shiny thing.

That's not. We're not doing that right now. Like you just got out of fuck boy territory. And I also knew that I was like interested in women in a way that I hadn't really been aware of since high school. So I had this like unresolved, unexplored thing. I was like, no, I set out this. I was like, this is the year that I'm going to go on some dates with girls and, like, feel that out again and, like, not feel ashamed about it.

So you were in high school, you were interested in girls more? I was, yeah. And then I think, like, you know, like, you pick identifiers that feel safe and co-skeem. Right. If you're gay, then you can't be, like, everything felt really binary at the time in 2006 or whatever. And there wasn't as much fluidity, like, in that sense. And, like, I feel like, everyone in Gen Zee fucks every. Right.

Like, yeah. I'm just like, wow, you guys are so cool. The amount of 22 and 23-year-old boys who hit on me is like insane. Really? Well, is it now, that's what I wanted to ask you. Is it like straight guys and gay guys? Like, is it everything and like DMs or like what? But it's, I would say it's mostly like bros, like boys.

Like full on bro dudes. Full on just like dudes. Yeah. Yeah. Like don't care like what your like parts are. They're just like they see you as like a beautiful. girl. Literally, like, this guy who was trying to help me with my bike today. I was like, I could tell he, like, didn't see me. But then there are people who fetishize trans women,

right? And so then that's another thing to be cognizant of. I've been fortunate to not have that experience, I guess, as much because I was so insular and, like, private during my transition that I wasn't like out in the world. Yeah, and then I fell in love with someone who doesn't fetishize me in that way. Is this the first woman that I've been with in a very long time? Yeah. How is it for you? How does it? Oh, it's just great. It's very affirming. It's very safe and very also not safe.

And like being in love is so scary and so uncomfortable and so painful. So all the universal feelings of being allowed, I feel that are probably the same. Yeah. Yeah. That was wonderful. I was really scared to admit that I was perhaps maybe attracted to women because I felt like I had such like safe relationships with all the women in my life because they thought of me as like a gay man. So they were like, oh, like you're the safest person in the world. And then suddenly like I transitioned and then become a little bit more threatening.

And then, like, in my head, I was like, oh, no, if I transitioned again, I'd tell people that I might just be a lesbian or, like, bisexual, like, aren't any of my girlfriends ever going to, like, trust me again. And, again, these are, like, stories we tell ourselves. And so it was, like, when I fell in love, I did, I did know, so many of my best friends are women, straight, cis women make up my closest friends. And those were the people I was the most worried about. Those were the people who, like, cared the least.

Of course. You know, or, like, or I've had the, like, I didn't you tell me. And I'm like, oh, no. Oh, no. We just had Charlotte Lawrence, who I think you might know. Oh, I love Charlotte. She's a love of our life. She's like one of our closest people.

She's like our little sister. She's like our little sister. Have you worked with her dad or something? No. He does TV stuff too. He's like a TV. He does TV stuff, yeah. But she was talking about being bisexual and having that fear of like, if I say this to

all my friends, like, you know, when she was younger, she's like, I kept it inside because are they going to feel uncomfortable changing in front of me? Are they going to feel like I want them? And she's like, it's a very different thing. Like, you can still have that safety with people and not necessarily, you know, you can be gay, you could be straight, you could be into girls or not. And it doesn't mean just because you're into girls that you want to fuck all your friends. But that's Gen Z. That's Gen Z. It is. Yeah. That's Gen Z.

That's like... Right. The fluidity. Yeah. They don't. They're just very, very seemingly very, like straight and narrow boy. The other night was like, so like what's the deal with you and your girl? Like, are you, like, what, like, are you guys open or like, what's up?

And I was like, sir. I'm also not used to getting hit on. I know that maybe sounds weird. I was really not until recently, and I'm like, I would never know what to do in those situations. I'm just like, you could be hitting on me, and I just leave. I was like, we should go back inside. You're just always run away.

I was like, I don't mean what you're saying. But Charlotte is like so, like, liberated and spray free. But I'm also like, oh, to be 21. Right. I know, right. I know. Yeah. To be 20, I wish I was, I don't.

No, I don't want to be 21 again. That was terrible. but I do wish I wish that I could have like one day is like this understood version of myself in my early 20s before I got sobered

to just be like crazy girl at the party I can have one day as Charlotte I do have a question on you know and obviously this isn't a parenting magazine but no but this is important it's so important because I have two boys

Rachel has a girl You know, we were watching a TV show the other day And it was a teenager that honestly, I don't know what the deal was. Like, I don't know if it was a she, he, they, like, I don't know. And Elliot, my son goes, is that a boy or a girl? And I was like, I'm not sure, honey. And he's like, well, I think it's a boy, but that she talks like a girl. And I was like, totally.

And I kind of felt stumped because we haven't had a lot of these conversations with Elliot yet. And, you know, we are moving away from a very conservative town outside of Sacramento. We're just moving back to L.A. So he's going to now be in the world of what I consider regular folks. And how old is he again? Six. Okay, cool. So how would you, where you stand?

And what would you say to parents that are like, how do I talk to my children about these issues? I'm actually going to draw the link for you. Okay. Yay. Wow. Love it. Sure. I think if you don't know, there's, again, like, there's a book for this.

There's a book that will like, go of books that were like late. You're like, didn't we already talk about this? Get your information off the internet. I don't, I don't. For me, I would just like sit down like any other conversation probably and try to be like, hey, so like, gender is the spectrum, if this is how you believe. If you don't believe this, like, I can't help you. I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you that, like, trans people exist.

But, like, if you're like, I want to teach my kids that, like, gender fluidity is real or, like, the people can be whatever they want to be when they grow up based on how they feel. And, like, the book I sang him is like a book for kids called It Feels Good to Be Yourself, a book about gender identity. Awesome. It's like similar to, like, explaining, like, you know, if you see someone in a wheelchair, There are a few different reasons why your friend might be in a wheelchair or like this could you go to school with, you just a cane, or those are two moms with a kid,

like whatever it is, right? So it's like you can have these types of conversations. And I think it can be completely the same. I think you're right. I think it is the same. I think what's nice about pronouns, right, or whatever is like, more and more people have done this to me recently, like cis people, presumably straight, very like heteronormative people being like, hey, really quick, I just want to like make sure like your pronouns

are, I was volunteering at a camp a few weeks ago at theater camp, and I think like two of the moms were like, just want to clarify it. What are your pronouns? And you're like, but that's a really nice way to like, you can ask kids that, right? Like, wow, if you're not sure, Elliot, why don't you ask Mabel what Mabel's pronouns are? Right. Oh, yeah. See, those little things though, like I didn't think about, I did feel stumped. I was like, yeah, it is. Well, of course, because you're also like, oh, I don't want to say the wrong thing. Yes. Right. And then it's like, like, Suddenly I've... Yeah. What can you and can't you say or talk about or how do you do it?

Like, my daughter had a similar thing and she was like, you know, so-and-so is an it. And I'm like, no. Like, I don't think it is the pronoun. You know, because she didn't understand. And we had, you know, you have a conversation. And it's, you know, like anything else. And Olivia has a child who is special needs. Breyer has a cousin who's special needs.

So there are these conversations and they're used to things that might look a little bit different from a majority of, you know, absolutely. Yeah, I found that people who grow up with family members or close community members who are special needs or parents of, if you're willing to show up and be present for that experience, are some of the most empathetic and caring people in the world. I could see that because Elliot, my son, like, he, it's so cute. Like, we'll be on the playground and Shepard, the youngest,

wears hearing aids. And Elliot will explain to, other kids. Shepard was born deaf. Yeah. So he's partially deaf. My cousins who are born deaf. Yeah.

Oh, really? They're going blind, actually, as well. Oh, wow. Sweeties. But yeah, the cochlear and stuff. But yeah, exactly. Yeah, my stepdad. My stepdad's deaf and has a cochlear.

There's, so there's lots, you know, around. But that's a great thing that I didn't think of is, yeah, like we hear different, you know, like, Shepherd hears this way. Elliot, like this person feels this way. So it's like very factual. I think you can be really simple and be like some people are born in the wrong body. Or some people are born in a body that doesn't feel right to how they feel in the inside and how we feel spiritually and how we feel emotionally and how we feel in our brain and ourselves isn't always reflected and how we appear to the world. And so sometimes you want to dress in a certain way so that you can appear in a certain

way and be seen and valued and like respect. I mean like whatever the words are. for a six-year-old. I don't entirely know, but I think, yeah, and then I think there's conversations, like, it must be really interesting, I would imagine, to have kids at that age because also there's, like, a community of moms and dads and parents, right? So then, like, I have a non-binary cousin who's pretty young who came out as non-binary a year and a half ago, and it's been a challenge for sure in certain ways. They live in, like, rural New England, and for the most part, it's been really great, but then, you know, I think it's always hard as a parent to really, really, you know, re-imagined the life of your child

because things didn't turn out the way you thought they were going to turn out, right? And I'm sure you feel that way entirely. But it could be the same of like your dad who has a boy who you think is going to be a basketball star because you were a basketball star, but the boy likes coding. So you've got to like come to terms of the fact that boy likes coding.

Like it doesn't have to be that different. The only difference really is that like trans people, specifically trans kids in America, especially right now, are very much under attack by love. and by their communities and by the safety of schools and by, I mean, literally there's about to be a 10-day hearing in Arkansas in October about health care for trans kids and whether like kids should be allowed to transition at all or humans should be allowed to transition

or if it should be criminalized federally if the parents allow their kids to transition and support that. Like, it's very real issues, really like pertinent, pressing, like things that are going on today, right? in this country. And so I think it's really important to facilitate conversations with your kids, but also try to facilitate this conversation with parents too. My guess is that person's parent could be feeling really uncomfortable because they don't know how to always, you'd be like, hey, like, your kid's so cool. We just want to make sure, like, Elliot asked me, like, what their pronouns are, like, just want to make sure, like, they feel really, like, affirmed. And, like, we just want to

make sure we don't mess me. Like, whatever it is, right? That's sweet. Yeah. I like that. Do you feel like there's a certain age that is more like if you were going to transition and the kids that want to transition? Do you feel like there's like an age that might be better for it or an age that's too young? You know what I mean? Like, do you have a view on that? No, I don't. I think some people know really. I would say I knew really early on and I was presenting as a girl for a long time, but there was no information or like my parents were just like, yeah, Tommy likes to wear dresses to school.

And unfortunately, there's some like shit going down because of that. Let's switch schools. I think had I've been born 10 years later and my parents had the information that we have now and it was more sort of widespread and circulated through the internet and media and there were more trans on commercial TV and film. I probably would have been seeing like a gender specialist as a younger kid and I probably would have started transitioning while I was in puberty. That just wasn't my experience. Right. So I have friends with kids who are trans who are getting into this conversation around puberty with hormones and things,

because you basically have a short window of, like, there's, like, puberty blockers, and then you can basically, like, shift the child's puberty trajectory if they're trans to be aligned with their gender identity. I'm like, if your kid has been saying this for however long, you know when it's true. My mom knew that I was a girl from, like, day one.

Wow. But, like, didn't understand that that was a thing that I could be. Like, when we finally had, like, the conversation about me transitioning, she was like, you've always been a girl. And I was like, well, yeah, I know. She's like, but I just don't think,

for example, it was really hard for her to switch pronouns for me because, you know, almost 30 years of using certain pronouns. I just like, I don't, I've always seen you as a girl, but it's just like, if I don't know why the pronouns matter, and I'm like, well, it just matters less between you and me and more between us and the outside world. So, you know, like having those facilitating those conversations. But I think ultimately, I wish, I wish I had a community and I lived in a world where we could

have had these conversations sooner. Because it would have saved me a lot of like unnecessary trauma and like discomfort and fear and like self-hatred and confusion. If there was just like someone to facilitate even just to be like, hey, trans people exist. Like I didn't fucking know. Wow. I had never seen a trans person until.

college that I was aware of. Wow. I wasn't like a Tumblr kid where I know a lot of trans people of my generation met each other. I didn't grow up in a coastal city. I was going to gay bars, but at that point I was already like

just identifying as like a gay boy and like a hot commodity in town. So I was getting a lot of validation that way. I didn't know any trans women. I didn't know. And then I went to college and I was like, and then like shows came out and Orange came out in Lavern.

It was there. and the cover of time and the trans tipping point and like one thing built in another thing and I was like, oh my God, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Like, how did I not know this? Here's your permission. Literally, but we do need permission. And like, that's why information's powerful.

And that's why it's like I'm down to talk about it. It's basis I feel good to talk about it and because it's helpful. Yeah. It's helpful for me even hearing this conversation and hearing you talk about it, you know? Because, you know, there's questions and you want to understand. And if you haven't gone through it and obviously you can't, Not that many people have trans. Like, I think if you are really honest with yourself,

I'm sure everyone is like no less than two or three degrees from a trans person. But like my guess is neither of you probably have like super close trans friends, which isn't to say, I mean, maybe you do, but like it's on a judgment. We have close. Gay friends. Yeah, close gay friends. And I have two close friends whose children are trans. Are you still considered trans if you haven't transitioned?

No, yeah, you're a trans friend. Yeah. Well, there's no, again, what is transition, right? Like, I don't think you have to. Yeah, that's why it gets tricky. And I think that I like your attitude of not being so fragile with it because I think that it gives people permission to fuck up and ask the wrong questions or say it wrong. What's the worst question someone could ask you? I think, similarly, like, I would like to think, yeah, I wouldn't. Like, if you see someone who's like hair seems to be falling out, you're not going to be like, what kind of cancer do you have? Right. You know, or whatever. Like, it's like, you shouldn't ask. anyone questions about their body. Like, no. Yeah. It's like basically like the private. I'm sure someone in your life has been like, did you have your boobs done? Or like whatever.

No one's ever asked me that. They don't ask that. They know that we haven't. Or whatever. Maybe they'll, I don't know. Like, assumptions can be made about. And that's the one thing in my head that I've stopped myself. Like, I'm not going to ask you like the private questions, the medical private questions. Because I feel like that is crossing a line. asking anyone I think about their like medical history unless you guys were super fucking tight and it's offered to you. Right. Isn't appropriate. I think if you use the same rules with trains people that you use with cis people, like you're not going to fuck up.

Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And even this, it's weird to me because I'm like, you know, oftentimes we have things that identify us, right? That we have like, for instance, okay, I'm sober. I have a mom of special needs kids or and I'm very vocal about these things so people feel like they can talk to me about it. And I'm cool with that, right? People aren't asking me the intricacies

of my vagina. No. I mean, some people might ask me, but... You know what I'm saying? I'm like, when it gets to certain things, like, why do people think just because someone's... But I'm sure it's the first question, I'm sure people want to ask you, like, oh, do you still have a penis? You know what I mean? Like, that's what... Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm sure, right? Because it was also a question that I had when I was around trans people. Right. Right. Of course, that's a, it's not to say, all of our first thoughts tend to be bad and wrong.

I'm going to be honest. No one's first thought is great. I would say my first, like, five are pretty terrible. I think, like, ultimately what I try to do in general, like across the board with everybody that I encounter is to just pick up whatever they're putting down. Totally. Read the room. You know what I mean?

It's like, if you are privileged to have eyes, read the fucking room. Right. 90% of communication is nonverbal. people wear what they wear intentionally for the most part. So like if someone has like a manly face but is like wearing really feminine clothes, read the room. And then God forbid, they're like, oh no, I'm a dude. I just like I like to wear dress. And it's like, great, cool.

Well, at least then fine. Now I know that. Thank you for that information. Right. But I think it's better safe than sorry and like common sense. I get misgendered sometimes and I'm like, I mean like literally like have like sea cut boobs or like busting out of the sports bra. read the room.

Right. You're like, I have boobs. Like, I mean, like, they're way bigger than I thought they were going to get. And, like, I think we could literally stop growing now, actually. That would be great. But I think, yeah, I think, like, yeah, if I can leave you with any tidbet, it's to pick up what people are putting down, period, like across the board. It's just so much easier.

Right. That's a lesson for life, though. I think that all the time because I'm like, people always talk to my husband. he's a doctor, like always come up and they talk to him about medical issues. And it's like, and they're like, tell me about COVID. And you're like, well, I specialize in toenails. So. Yeah. Yeah. They're not picking up that he's trying to, you know, relax on a hammock right now. Yeah. Like, he doesn't want to look at your like butt mold. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. My cousin's like a chiropractor and he's like, I would love to go to a party where I'd not half drunk cracking people's backs because I feel like I have half.

totally yeah totally just want to thank you for being so open and willing and talking to us and taking the time oh fuck mary kill we do yeah oh my god yes we usually think of this beforehand and we didn't so we're gonna go we're gonna go let's do Zach Ephron Zach Ephron today or Zach Ephron before any which version you want Zach Ephron um Who's Olivia Rodrigo? Sure. I don't know. I'm just trying to think like generally, you know, like, because I tend to go like old school. Well, actually.

But you and I are that far apart age-wise. 10 years. Right, maybe. We got a decade. Okay. Okay. Zach Ephron, Olivia Rodrigo, and Michael B. Jordan.

Oh, my God. This is so terrible. Okay, so I'm going to have to kill Zach Ephron. You're going to... Yeah. I'm going to kill Zach Ephron. I'm going to marry... I'm going to marry Olivia Rodriguez.

Nice. I mean, that's going to be some nice serenade. And I'm going to fuck Michael B. Jordan because... Because why not? And it's not that I wouldn't want to marry Michael B. Jordan. It's just that, like, I can't imagine spending the rest of my life with a man. There you go. There you go.

Beautiful. Love it. Yeah. You did it. And I also can't imagine fucking Olivia Redridge. She's so young. So I'm like...

Wait, is she not even 18 and I just did that? How old is she? No, no, no, no. She's 21, I think. But it feels young. It does feel young. Hold on. You killed...

You killed Zach Efron today, which makes him dying as a... Where are we? Leo? Cancer. Cancer? Zach Efron is a Leo. It's Leo. He's dying as Leo.

Zach Ephron died as a Leo. And I wonder what, okay, wait, real quick. What is Zach? His birthday? Is it a C.H or is it Zach Ephron's sign? He's a Libra. He's a Libra. Nope.

But he's dying as a Leo. Dying as a Leo. In hell. His face doesn't give Libra. His face gives Leo. Gemini. Oh, Gemini. Gemini.

Gemini. I mean, right? He doesn't give me Leber vibes at all. Oh my God. This was so much fun. I got to go because I need to... Okay. Go.

Go to Pilates. Go do your Pilates. Let me know, but I'll be here. I'll be around. And you in L.A. Okay. Tommy Dormann. Tommy Dwarfman.

You didn't... You haven't listened, right? Or you don't know? No, I didn't. I don't listen to the show. Well, you weren't here. You weren't... I missed this one.

Yeah, I did. This is your favorite show. It is. He loves Lonely Island. Best. Sorry, armchair. Whatever. Same thing.

He's a broad at heart. Oh, yeah. Do we have a name for listeners? Yeah. Oh, because they have arm cherries. We have... Broads. No.

Fucking brilliant. We have... I'm going to come up with it because it's like my favorite thing in life. Because I wanted to be in advertising just to come up with jingles and like that was really my dream. Not jingles, but like... Do you write a jingle for us?

Not a jingle. I got a slogan. I didn't... A slogan, thank you. Jingles, I do remember, like, from growing up. Any commercial that was on in the 80s, 90s, I remember this like, spill it, splatter it. It doesn't matter.

It's liquid chlorox, too. Do you remember this commercial? I remember you singing this commercial. I don't know if I remember the actual commercial. Okay, so for some reason, I have no memory, but I remember jingles. We did do a second part to the song, Rachel and I did. Remember? We did. We wrote a second verse to our theme song. Yeah. But what about it? You want to sing it right now? No, I don't even remember it. I'm just saying we did create a little jingle, jangle. Oh, yeah. More like a rap.

Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't going to ask Genevieve to sing that. Our second verse. Did we send it? Did we send it to you? I think you sang me it. I hope not. I'm like a voiceman. I'm going to look at my notes. I think you texted me the lyrics also, which I think we've ever, have we ever given a shout-out to... Genevieve? Genevieve and Stephen.

We have to give some mad, mad... What am I from Northern California? I got to get some mad props. Hell of respect. Hell of respect. Oh, man. No, to Genevieve Shats, who sang our theme song.

Beautifully. I've no Genevievee for a very, very long time. How long? For like 15 years. Oh, wow. And Stephen Patterson, who wrote the music. He's got a band called The White Rabbits. Yep.

He plays drums for Hamilton, Leithauser. Hamilton, the musical? Nope. The guy from the Walkman. I'm just kidding. Right. And Kevin Morby. What?

What? Kevin Morby is another musician. You are the music man here, okay? And the Wells Fargo wagon is a... Oh boy, here we go. Music Man is a musical and that's a song from it. Thank you. All hot and machete again.

You know? You don't know? Do you need more macha? I think Alfred's is open until seven. No, no more matcha for me. I still want to know the name of the people listening. I know. I need time.

Yeah, she needs a really late on it. That is my job. My dream. Time. What is that? Oh yeah, what is that? I need. It's from a song. Yeah. What song is that? I need time.

Oh, you're trying to think of it? Is it like Justin Timberlake? No. It's Brittany. NF. What? There's a pain called NF that has that lyric. No, it's Britney.

Bitch. I need time. I probably need cut that. Do you get it? I need. Space. Come on. Brittany.

Yeah, that's a Britney's song. Overprotected. Red Unitar. Overprotected. Overprotected. Can you play a clip? Yeah. Got it in the headphones.

What? Say hello to the girl that I am. Rob's favorite song. I've never heard the song. Were you not into Brittany? No. can't say I was. Prime.

You weren't like, oh my God, like she's so pretty. I really think she's cool. None of that. That was not your thing. Does not seem like Rob's type. No.

Marissa's one of my type. Fucking Rob. Anna ultimately is like the girl, but she was only there for not very long. So then he just, like, I'll go with Marissa, because what are my other choices?

Hey. That's true. No, I was saying, hey. Oh. We need to get it together here. We need to get our acts together. Sorry, Tommy.

Tommy. We love Tommy. Dorffman. Dorffman. Her style is absolutely unbelievable. Like, she's, I'm, yes. She makes me want to up my game. Like, you look at her Instagram and you're like, holy fuck, she is doing it.

Beautiful. She's like so funny, so endearing, and her willingness just to be open about her whole journey was moving. Yes. The most moving part, too, was when she was talking about her uncle Tommy. And if everyone, I wish everyone could have seen her little face when she looked at the picture of him. Of him holding her as a baby. Yeah. It was definitely loaded, super loaded. Yeah. It was really sweet.

Heartfelt. Rob is looking at us like, I don't. Rob wasn't here. What they're talking about? Rob, I need time. I feel like Tommy would be into that song with us and not disrespect us like Rob is. What do you want? Not disrespect, Brittany.

What do you want me to do? I want you to. To pretend like I... Do you think if she made that song, I'm a slave for you, like today, that she could? Probably not. Yeah. Because I was about to sing it and I was like, wait, I bet you can't. I weirdly thought that...

At the time? No, I watched the... Britney versus Spears, Aaron Lee Car documentary. Oh, I didn't watch it. On Netflix. You watched that? I did too. I'm friends with Aaron.

That made it. Oh, okay. And they played the music video from that. And I was like, lyrically, I don't know that she can do this. Yeah. Huh. Now I want to know what the names are. I know.

I'm going to come up with it. But if I sit and think right now, there's going to be a lot. Actually, you two converse. Let me think. Let's watch. Let's watch. Let's watch our thing. Let's watch.

Let me read you our second first because maybe it'll inspire something. Let's hear it. So strap on in or on, if you prefer. All are welcome. He she, they, him, or her. We made humans that started as yokes. So listen in because we've got bad jokes.

Mad again. Our ideas are as broad as Bob Ross's strokes. We'll talk about births and texts that are obscene. We'll talk about ways to make your partner cream. Join two best friends as they trip down memory lane and bring the depth in folks to uncover we're all the same.

Have you ever made a partner cream? What does that mean? I've been made a partner cream? Like squirt? Cream. I'm glad we did not include all that in our themes. I've got real X-rated.

Did it? Rob is all that got so wholesome. He's like, these guys, I just got so X-rated. Okay, so our listeners' names, like, broad ideas. We have the broadneys. Broadnees. Broadmeys.

You said you were good at this. It made me laugh. It killed me. The broad needs. We should play Scategories. I fucking love Scatigories. I do too. You do?

You do? Have all that game nights. We're playing it at dinner tonight, folks. Do you play where you can use adjectives? Give me an example. What's it? Stop it. I'm peeing myself a little bit.

If it was as an animal, could you put slimy turtle? No, I do not allow it. No. Hey, give me an example. No, but I needed an example. How would you use this adjective? And technically, you can get the- Like slutty girls.

If it's... Could you do slutty girls? Nope. Nope. Sluts. Yeah, you could just use... Yes. And do you do the double points if you... Yes.

Yeah. If it's the same... How would you do a double if it's not an adjective? Like Seattle Seahawks? Yes, exactly. You just gave your own example. Chris Christofferson.

Chris Cuomo. Chris Cuomo. Wait, is Chris Christophon? I think it's a K. Is that... Yeah, it is. Okay. Don't.

No. I know. How do you love Scatogories with your abilities to not spell so well? You don't have the spell in Scatogories. Well, like, she didn't know that, like, well, how do you know was Chris, Chris, what is it? Yeah. I mean, the C's, the C's and the C's and the Cays are going to trip you up. Yeah.

What was it? Is it a Cere of head? It's a K for the last name. Yeah. But you would have had it right because you got Chris. I would have gotten Chris, but I would have been all happy and then I would have lost one. Yeah. My brother, so when we play Scatterories.

We actually call him this. He always tries to get away with things. Like the letter was O and it was like people that work at a hotel. And he wrote overlords. That's not a thing. I know. And he argued it till like, and so now we call him overlord. Overlord.

Yeah. I could see. An overlord at a hotel? Yeah. That's pretty funny. But yeah. Leah and I, when we lived together, like we would just sit up at night in our living room. and just play Scatterories.

I was there, too. Have you played catchphrase? No, but I heard that's good. What was that other thing we used to play all the time? It wasn't Scattergories, but we could take it with us in the car. Madlips. Oh, well, yeah. Everyone was like, since you were a kid on your face.

I feel like she's bullying me right now. I'm feeling tender, vulnerable, and scared. Have you ever played the hack game? I don't know. You told me about that. Is that like a swinger's thing? Yeah. Everyone puts their keys in a hand.

No, it's... No, but you told me about it. Everyone, you need like a decent size group, maybe like six or more. Everyone writes a phrase or a couple words on a card. Then they go in a hat. First round is like catchphrase. So you're describing it without saying the words. You're learning all the words as you're going through the first round.

Then they go back in for the first round. then they go back in for the second round and you have to do charades. I have played that. So then you have to like run up. You're talking about running charades though, I think. That's what she's talking about, I mean. This is like two teams and you get a minute

to get as many as possible. Minute to win it? Minute to win it. Wait, give me an example of the, so you have a catchphrase and then you have to do what? You have to try to describe it without saying it. So give an example. Yeah, please.

We love to play. Just any phrase. We can't. What? Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star. So you're trying, I'm trying to get you guys to say this. This is a nursery rhyme that kids think about things in the sky. I was literally trying to think of other words for the exact word.

And I'm trying to say, shiny, petite fire in the sky. You guys don't want to play strades with me because now that I have a son that can't. Sign language. I am so damn good at reading people. Let's go. And then, so there's a third round where you just get to say one word. So I would say

nursery for Twinkle Tinkle Little Star If they haven't gotten it by that point Is that your thing? No. You still have to go through the same clues each round So there's three But then how did you not catch on To what it already is?

Yeah That's the point. You're like learning them each round But there's 50 phrases in there Hmm I want to play Yeah, okay We're done here

Bye guys We're going to play games But I do love games I do love games As a catch phrase Anything you say You said catchphrase. Oh, you made that up.

Yeah. I mean, we've done versions where it's like put raunchy, raunchy things on there. You naughty boy. Or like we play with my family, my mom writes like, I love my family. Aw. That's sweet. So give you whatever. Okay.

Cards Against Humanity when it first came out was fun. That was a binger. Remember when we played that at your condo? My condo? In Santa Monica. Oh, yeah, I do. Is that when I made a roast? Yes, you made a roast.

I did. And we played cards. Now, let me tell you, my idea of a good time. It's a roast in a game night. Same zies. I love game night. Love game night. Do you like roasts?

Rob is so boogie, though. It would be like, it'd have to be like a beef bourillon from like marinated for 18 days. Do I have an accent? Yeah. A bushy one. That's a bougie accent, by the way. everyone. You remind me of the chef and little mermaid. Zootolau, I have me this one.

You remind me of the babe. The babe with the power. What power? The power of who do? Who do? You do. Remind me of the babe. Please tell me you know that movie. Little Mermaid. No, that we just shifted real quick. No. The Labyrinth with David Bowie and Jennifer Connolly.

That is one of my favorite movies. That's up there. For you? Mm-hmm. So how did you not recognize that? It's because we're singing it. When you guys are talking. You don't listen?

I'm crying. Nothing resonates. I love that movie. I have a really, like, very strong obsession with anything Muppet-like. I think I still have that on DVD. That would make sense. I think I have it on Laserdisc. Do you still have a DVD player?

My dad does. I've got an Xbox that'll play DVDs. Oh, that's right. Oh. Jeff's dad just sent him all their home movies on V. and a TV with a VHS player. That's actually pretty fucking awesome. Yeah.

They saved every one of his toys. Isn't that nuts? That sounds a little crazy. I mean, all his original Star Wars. I mean, it's cool now. It's really cool. Not the, like, lame toys. It's all his, like, good toys from when he was a kid.

I can't imagine doing that, though, for, like, Cal. Well, nowadays, it's, like, different. Yeah, but they have, like, basements and cellars and... Oh, yeah. East Coast. His room is the same from high school and so is his sisters. That's bananas. That's fucked up.

No, but that's like, it's like a real, yeah. I thought that was in the movies. And when I went there, I was like, I feel strangely comforted that this exists. Like, that you have your high school bedroom with your trophies and. How old are his parents? Well, his mother, his mom just passed. His dad is 74, maybe. Does he find, like, comfort in having that?

He's never had it any other way, so he doesn't know what it's like. So when it goes away, is he going to... Oh, yeah. I think it's going to be a real thing. Like, when we go there, he sleeps in his old bedroom. His kids... His old pajamas. His kids sleep in his bed and play with his toys.

It's kind of sweet. That's really sweet. You know? That's very sweet. His sister's room is, like, all the flower wall people. on the wall and all the dolls and all the stuff, but it's not, it's not creepy, it's sweet. I really like that. Yeah.

It's very sweet. My mom still has the same house that, you know, I grew up in since I was six. So to my parents. Oh, really? No, I knew that. My room is not the same. Your room's not the same, yeah. No, the second I moved out, my room was, they were like, nope, get all this shit out of here.

I also had, like, four different rooms in that house. Yeah, I moved rooms, too. So it wasn't like the same the whole life kind of thing. I do understand that though And long for that nostalgia like that Like that was like my I get it It's comforting to have like that house still Yeah

I lived in 20 houses by the time I was like 19 That's crazy Yeah I counted recently and I was like That's insane I lived in one You lived in one yeah That's normal After 18 I've

Natalie and I counted and we move like every year I like But not now Do you like moving? I do, yeah. I do, too. I like having the space totally changed up. Me too.

We're moving right now, and I actually had a little mini panic attack today. Yeah. Because I like... Because you're so excited? No. She's moving back to her old house that they still own, you know, and she's coming back to it. But she's leaving her magical house that they redid, and it's in, like, a beautiful space. But the neighborhood's not the same.

Like, we're going to have to move. Okay, so... I saw a guy. today and coffee line. He had the frosted tips. Yeah. And his mustache died to match. Oh, really? Little dipstick.

Little tip. He looked like Mark McGrath. Oh. We hung out with Mark McGrath. Because he was like best friends with McGee and when the O.C. first started. And he lived next door to Kevin. Yes, he did. That's right.

Kevin. I'll talk. I was thinking of the other guy. What was that song? Remember you and Leah? Come a little. Yeah, come, come a litter. You're my butterflare.

Sugar. Is that limp biscuit? No. No. Yeah, I think it's limp biscuit. No. I just said limpisket. No, no, no.

That was... Come a little. Come, come, come later. Crazy town. Yes. Then what did limp biscuit sing? Nookie and... Oh, I did it all for the nooky.

Hot dog flavored water. They did... Hot dog flavored water? Yeah. Shepard would love that And that song Faith Gotta have faith Wait isn't that

That's a covered Yeah they covered it Got it I was like I know that song Ah well So when you and Bill broke up What did you miss the most His big dick

And you can keep that Oh that Oh that's And cut. Let's move on. How much weight do you give astrological signs when you're going to date someone? None. Zero. Zero.

Do you even ask them? I do because it's conversational. And I'm like, oh, you know, but then I don't really know enough about it. I know a little. What percentage know? Most people know their birth signs. Yeah. Are you saying, like, you don't think guys know their signs?

Do you not know yours? I don't know mine. And I think we've talked. I'm on it on here. You're a Gemini. Yeah. You should learn about you. I'm on like the, I know I'm on the edge, so that's why I never remember.

Because I'm on. You're not on the cuss. It's a 23rd, isn't it? My birth is the 20th. I know. He's not on the cusp. You're a Gemini. You're a Gemini.

You're one person with us, and then you go home, and you're a different person. You know it. Just like Mann's. just like Mannons? Yeah. Yeah. Manon's a Libra, I think. No, June 21st is the cutoff for Gemini.

Oh, is it? Yeah. So I'm right on the edge. If you were the 21st, you'd be on the cuss. Sure, I'm very close. No, you're not on the 21st, Rob. You actually read a little bit more than you can't. That's what I'm told.

Yeah, that's true. So you do know stuff. You're over there like, I don't even know what I am. Or Uncle Jennifer. No. Or Bill Hater. But I think we've had this exact conversation We have. It takes a while

for it to go in on us, you know? We've had this conversation. But because I'm on the edge makes me just forget both. Okay. I'm close to a couple. Well, a few days, maybe. But am I more Leo than Virgo? No.

No, you're a Vergo. Vergo. I remember when I was a kid, I thought I was a virgin, which I was. I hope you were. But I remember I would, that's what I'd like said once and all the adults laughed and I was really embarrassed. Like, what sign are you? It was like my dad's girlfriend and her friends. I was a little kid. I was like, I'm a virgin and they all laughed.

I hope so. And I was like, I feel so stupid. Oh. Poor me. Libra is the only one that's not a creature or some sort of. It's a symbol. It's a symbol. It's the only one that's a symbol.

Well, what the fuck is a Virgo? A woman? It's the virgin. Well, we all know that I'm not that. Crab. Yeah. Crab. Gemini is a scale, right? No, that's a Libra. No, Libra.

Gemini is the, and I can't, I don't know. Two bulls? Double-headed demon. I heard Libra was put in to balance out Scorpio and Virgo, because they were so different that they put in Libra. My daughter's a Scorpio. Yeah, I love Scorpio. Leah's a Scorpio. What's Natalie?

Rob. I don't know mine. Why do you think I know her? no years. You're like, people say more like a cancer because Gemini's really are not true to my nature. And my mom's on. That's how you talk about my husband. You went from boogie

accent to like Mr. No-It-All. She's a Sagittarius. That feels right. Yeah. She's saggy. Feels right. I'm sure it does. She feels right. Feels right. I said it feels right. You said, is she a flirt?

Yeah, she can't be. Yeah. Is that a sad thing? That's a sad thing. But yeah, it's not like a, you know, it's not like a big thing. Like, oh, what sign are you, you know? It used to be a deal breaker for me. Okay, I think we, I mean, like.

Yeah, we're good. Okay. Harvey? Well, we gotta say bye. Bye. This isn't even normal. Bye. That was a hate gum podcast.