Broad Ideas with Rachel Bilson & Olivia Allen - Zoe Winkler on Building Confidence Through Your Passions

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

Rachel and Olivia chat with podcaster Zoe Winkler (What In the Winkler?!) about feeling comfortable in friendships, growing up with a famous parent and discovering the root of self-esteem.Watch the video of this episode on YouTube here!Like the show? Rate Broad Ideas 5-Stars on Apple Podcasts and SpotifyAdvertise on Broad Ideas via Gumball.fm See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This is a Headgum podcast. Hax is back for its fifth and final season, and so is The Hacks podcast. Join the Hacks creators and showrunners, Lucia and Yello, Paul W. Downs, and Jen Statsky as they unpack the Emmy-winning comedy series. On each episode, here's stories from the set, what goes on in the writer's room,

and how these beloved characters close out their final season. Watch Hax streaming exclusively on HBO Max and listen to The Hax podcast, on HBO Max or wherever you get your podcasts. guys. Why? Why silence when I say hi or hello? Look at her. Do you see the way she's looking at me? There's been a pattern on the last few intros where Olivia's giving you the cold shoulder. What the hell is that? Why? Have you ever been in? She's mad that she's to come to my house for dinner after baseball tonight. That's what's happening. No, it's like being in a relationship

where you know the thing that's going to poke the bear until you do it to get a reaction. Thanks. Appreciate it. I'm just poking the bear. Hey, speaking of bears, can we talk about my... Yeah, well-played.

Can we talk about my favorite sweatshirt? It's great. Is it a bear or a deer? It's beer. Beer. Wow. It says B-E-E-R underneath. I never put that together.

What? No, I just thought it was like a bear and being like beer? Oh, it has antlers, Olivia. The bear has antlers. I'm with Olivia. I just didn't get it. As you explained it, I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Same.

No, it's just a bear that wants beer. That's made sense to me. My vintage sweatshirt I've had for a very long time. Looks comfy. It's very comfy. I'm also in my Pilates clothes, but covered in a nice coat, so you don't really know. But you told us so we do. Now you do.

I love a large vintage. comfy sweatshirt It's the best. Who doesn't? Exactly. That's a red flag. If they're like, that's not my thing, we're out. That's a red flag.

Yeah. Ew. Like if someone's like that, I don't like that. Uh-huh. Do you kind of feel like Zoe might not like that? She might not like that. No, Zoe, we're a little love bug. She might need a new sweatshirt.

But she's allowed to like and want whatever she wants. Aps to fucking Lutley. I will stand by it. Yep. We'll stand by. Zoe for life. Zoe Winkler. Dear, sweet, love,

best person ever. The ultimate. She's the ultimate. Like, she actually is the Fonz. Yeah. He's got nothing on her. He does. You know, he's got a lot, actually.

Take that back. Scrap that. Burn it. Zoe, let's talk to her. Okay. This is fun to be the guest. This is so fun. It's so weird to have you as the guest.

I know because I just have to say, and we always agree on this. We may say this sometimes, but we actually mean it when we say you are our fucking favorite person. It's true. You guys are mine. No. Like, if anybody needs their own, like just a camera following you in life at all times, it's you. Well, would you do that? Never.

Why? Because I would, like, ruin my whole family. I would, like, take us all down. Like I would just I would say something I would have like an altercation. I don't even know. I know we've been all asking that since day one. Since like the whole sensation of reality TV where like where's your show? What about stand up? Oh my God, are you?

No. I like you're not I don't like tell jokes. You're the funniest person on earth. You don't have to. You just have to stand there and talk. And I swear to God sometimes like I don't think it's being funny. And I just to think people are laughing at me. And now I realize, like, because I would be like, I don't think that was funny, you know. But I don't know. It's just like, I think it's just my personality. Yeah.

And I think that I'm super open. But like, I mean, I don't. I mean, this is it. This is as far as I go. What about writing? I wouldn't know where to start. I've had a ghost writer and I could just like talk. Maybe.

I would love that. That exists. Yeah. Well, there is AI now where you can just record it in and then it can be. Only because your voice is one of the most unique voice. there's ever been. Oh my gosh. It's true. Thank you. You're welcome. That makes me so happy. It is true. That's really nice. We love you. I love you. I love you. I've known you for so long. So I was thinking about that on the drive over here. Like I think we met when I was 18. Yeah. We were yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds

She what? No, because 18 I would have been. Anyways, that makes total. We're aren't we the same age? No. I think. I I think you guys might be. You're 81. 80. 80. I thought you were 80. I'm 81. Okay.

Yeah. So you're a little bit younger than me. Yeah. This all sounds really shady. But that sounds so shady. E. But then my dad worked as like a background person on Happy Days. Yeah.

He says that he thinks that you and I met when we were kids. Really? Which I'm sure we did. We probably did. Yeah, because he actually knew your dad. Yeah, we spent so much time at that set. Yeah. And I'm sure you did too.

Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. But my dad has always said that. So we'll just count it as like that as well. Yeah. He grew up in the valley. He was a background artist. Is that what you said?

Yeah. His background on happy days. That's legit. Yeah. I mean, that's something. Yeah. To even be on that set. I'm trying to think if I was actually ever on that set.

It must have been somewhere. Anyway, doesn't matter. It does not matter. Your dad, the icon that he is. Not only is he an icon. for his career. He is the nicest human on this planet. He really is. He really, like the most genuine, kindest. He really is. It's weird. I remember when I was in college and I just started it in new, I went to Wisconsin for college. And I met this girl and she's now a really good friend

of mine. But I met her and I guess I like didn't remember meeting her. I was so overwhelmed and I was anxious and I, my first time leaving Los Angeles. And she was like, are you adopted? and I was like, no, why? Like, why would you think that? And she was like, your dad's so nice and you're so not. Oh, my God. Ew. Yeah, but meanwhile, she's like a friend of mine now.

But I'll never forget. I literally was like, I'm so, like, I think he's so kind that sometimes it's almost like, is he on drugs? But he's not. It's just his personality. It's consistent. Yeah. It's very, very, very kind and gentle.

I think that's why he like gets along with kids so well. Yeah. He just, you know, he really, like, is a very sweet person. He really is. It's abnormal. Yeah, it is. It's, like, so next level and you feel so cared for it and you feel, like, seen and appreciated. I remember one night, I had booked a part, and I, my mom wasn't doing well.

And you guys had dinner for me at your parents' house because it was playing. And I watched it, and I hated it. And I was so upset. And I was like holding back tears. And he came up to him and he said, what are you feeling? And I said, I'm feeling awful. And I feel like it was really bad. And he's like, what did you not like?

And I told him, I was like, I don't like the way my voice sounded. And I thought he was going to be like, everybody feels that way. He looked at me and he said, then get voice lessons. And I did. And I did. Oh my gosh. How helpful. No, it was so helpful. It was like, he was like, I'm going to talk to you like a dad. Yeah. Like I'm not just going to give you what you want to hear. I'm going to say something that's actually going to help you. And then I did go get voice lessons because of that. Oh, he's so. Yesterday I was there and I was dropping off a check or something. And I was like, can you give this or can you do something? And I did a heart. And he was like, that is such a good heart. And I was like, and his assistant was like, oh my God.

And I realized like everything I did kind of like he was always like very, he was, they were very strict my parents. And they were also like, you know, very, we had a very open relationship so we could talk to him about anything. But everything I did, my dad thought was amazing. And everything I did my mom thought was annoying. So it was so funny. The two, you know, it really worked out. It's not funny. Yeah.

I just know you can always count on C's candy. You can always still to this day. Yeah. In your parents' house. My kids do sports class there. All of my kids did a sports class there at some point, like in kindergarten and preschool. And there was a huge bowl of seize candy and all the kids would come in after and get a seize candy. Yeah, it's so cute.

Now that I have a first grader, no one's really doing. And he, of course, hate sports. So none of those. It's over. Yeah, the sports is over. But we'll do something else there. Can we bring back? Like, what happened to the Fourth of July parties?

Oh my gosh, we used to have the craziest Fourth of July parties. Like, why can't we relive on? We should. Like, I want the blankets on the lawn. Yes, we should. Yes, we should. Yes, let's do it. And, like, now it'll be, like, families.

Let's do it this year for Fourth of July. We leave. Let's do it next year. Okay, next year? Yeah, we're going to be in Pittsburgh. Oh. Yeah. You're both going to Pittsburgh?

I'm not going to. Oh. No, not we. We're like, we're going. I was like, what are you doing in Pittsburgh? I'm not going to Pittsburgh. No. Next year?

Yeah. Let's do it next year. That would make me say, like, we never had to even think about Fourth of July. I know it was so much fun. And I stopped doing it. I don't know when, but I really want to keep doing it. Because Fourth of July, I always like, I'm like, what should we do, you know, unless you're out of town? Right.

Like, that was the best. Yeah. Yeah. I want to bring it back. And I also want to talk about how generous you are. This is like your wedding speech. I love it. Oh, my God.

Did I tell you what Leah and I came up with one day? No. Oh, my gosh. So, obviously, we've been friends since we were 18, and we ended up going out of town when it was your wedding. Yes. And that was horrendous. It was horrible. She went out of town for my baby shower, too.

I did. I did. We went out of town. We weren't well. You know what I mean? We were young also. I got married. I mean, I was 28. You got married young, but you had babies before you guys did, right? So I think like, you don't really know until you go through it, like what it means, you know? Right. Yeah. So I don't think so. Yeah. We have lived with this regret. They were still drinking. We were still drinking. We were still drinking. We were not doing well. Right. And like we made choices that were not great choices. Anyways, we went to Hawaii for some thing. We missed your wedding, have never been able to live with ourselves since that day.

I'm not kidding. I still have dreams about it. Oh, my gosh. I think through the years, I've texted you, like, I need you to know how much I love you, and I'm so sorry. She's never done that for me for my baby. I've never brought it up once. It's fine. So I called Leah one day.

This was probably, like, a year ago. And I was like, what if we threw Zoe? a wedding. Guys, my wedding was one of my favorite days of my life. So I would really love that. Another one. Yeah. I would love another one. Yeah. I always say to Rob, like, let's do it again. And he's like, never. It was like, I loved my wedding. I mean, I was definitely sad that you were not there. But I definitely, like, I loved that day. She was sad. She was not. Yeah. She was sad. Yeah. She was stunned on us. Yeah. That wasn't the right decision. I was disappointed. I wasn't like angry. It wasn't the right decision. But we all have made so many.

decisions over the years that were not the right decisions. Yeah. Ask me where I was for her baby shower. Where were you? Burning Man. It's true. She went to fucking Burning Man. Never going to let her let that down.

Burning Man. I'm going to throw you a baby shower in your own. Yeah. Let's all go to Burning Man and do a wedding. I would never. I could never. I've never been to Coachella. Like a festival and me are just like not, not a thing.

But that's what I want to see. That's what I want to this. Maybe that should be like. Yeah, that should be the reality show is like, let's take Zoe to Coachella. I would be so upset. Zochella. It's funny. The other, a couple weekends ago, Rob was going, he's obsessed with, my husband is

obsessed with Dead & Co. And he loves going to the concerts. And one of my friends was like, let's all go. And I was like, you don't understand. Like, if I were there, I would ruin your time. Like, I would just ruin it for you. And I wouldn't mean to. But, like, I can't, I just, it would be, like, such a bummer that it would just, like, not

be the vibe. So I'm just going to stay home. And I went to Vegas and I stayed home. What? Do all the wives stay home? Because all the, like, everyone is like, oh, my husband's at fish or the dead or. I mean, it just like doesn't interest me at all. And I feel like, it's usually like a boys trip, I think.

But this one was a bunch of my friends went. Oh, they did. Oh, yeah, they all went. And I just was like, I'm so sorry, I can't. I can't bring you. I mean, I'm with you. I don't know that I could like jam out, quote unquote for like four hours. It's hours.

It's hours. Yeah. Yeah, but then like, how do you get out of there? I want to know. I could do it. Like not on mushrooms or anything? Yeah. I could do it.

I kind of want to do it because I'm like, there's got, it's almost like. That I could do more than a fish concert. Fish is a hard know for me. Yeah, I can't. I don't even know a single fish song. I don't, well, there's just music. It's just like a lot of music. Oh, it's not singing.

Are you a fish, fish head, Kevin? Not really. Isn't it like, oh, no, it's a dead head. What's the fish? It's a dead head. But fish, isn't there like a term for fish people? A fisser. Let me see.

A fisherman. A fish. A fishy. A fishy. A fissionado? Yeah. It's fishheads. Fish heads.

Yeah. I saw it at the Hollywood. I drove by. I saw them all going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember when you used to live right by the Hollywood Bowl. We lived, Leah and I lived right behind the Hollywood Bowl. Oh, I remember that apartment.

Oh, my God. That was the. I remember that apartment. We would all get ready there and then we'd go out. Oh, my God. To the club. Yeah. Oh, my God.

Those clubs. Rob and I are fascinated by, like, the youth of now. Like, do they go out? No. Because they don't go out in Hollywood. They go out in Venice. Oh, is that a thing? Some, like, young.

My babysitters is 24 and she's so cute. She's graduated from USC. And we were asking, like, where do you guys go out? Like, because we would all go out in Hollywood. Yeah. But now I think people go out, like, in Venice and stuff. But they just go to bars or to people's houses, right? It's like a whole different.

It's so different now. We had a good time. We had a time. We had a time. It was a club with dance floors and like every top like pop star on that. Everybody. Yeah. Like yeah.

It was different. It was different. It was fun. It was so fun. It was so fun. And then we'd go to after hours after. Yeah. Yeah.

I remember one. We did. I'll never forget this story if when you. Oh, God. Oh, no. What did I do? We can always cut things. It's just funny.

You ran into someone. I don't know if it was like a cousin or like someone. A car? like in a car? No, you ran into someone. We were out. No, we were out. And they were like, Zoe, we went to high school together.

And you're like, oh my God, that's so amazing. And then you grabbed their beer out of their hand and walked away. And I was just like, that sounds. Maybe your Wisconsin friend. Right. That sounds exactly like something I would do. Oh, my God. That's so great.

Thank you. That's what happened. And I was like, I'm sorry. That is amazing. And I remember I being like, Zoe, you just like took their beer. And you were like, I did. Like, I was like 100%.

That's amazing. That sounds so, that's exactly why I can't do a reality show. Because that sounds like something I would do now than any time. Yeah, but we would binge it. Right. We would binge it. Because the thing is, is it like, okay, Rob would divorce me. He can't.

I know. He can't. He's so. He's so stuck. He's so. How long have you guys been together? We've been together? Well, we met when I was 24, turning 25. That's insane. And we will be married 16 years this June. That's insane. Crazy. Crazy. I can't believe it. I remember when you met him. Oh, God. You were living in that apartment. In that apartment? Like Robin's Drive. Yep. Yeah. 9-9-9-9. 9-9. Rondon's drive. Like, it was.

dialed in. My mom made my apartment look exactly like her house. I loved it. Yeah, it was so good. It was so good. Rob came in and he was like, who lives here? Grandma? And I was like, no, me. This is my apartment. I remember though it never feeling like, like it was your apartment and your mom made it like a mini your house. But it never, it felt so temporary for you. Whereas like the rest of us kind of, you know what I mean? belonged in the apartment longer. Yeah, no, I loved that apartment and I, like, I've such great memories in that apartment, but I can't, like, it feels like so long ago. Yeah. It just feels like a whole other world, you know?

I mean, in that apartment before I met Rob, I was so, I mean, I was, I was, I was, I was like a party girl times a thousand. I was out every night. Yeah. Except the weekends probably, but like I was out every night. I don't even know what I was doing. Like, I was insane. We all were. Yeah, we all were. We all were. We all were. I remember Minka Kelly was my neighbor. I remember that. In that apartment? Yeah. Really? Yeah. That's how we met. Oh, my God. Why were we all so insane? Was it just like a culture time? Like, okay, so take us back. You have the same group of friends. I do. How long? How long? We've been friends since. I mean, I met Allison when I was.

in preschool, which is crazy. Yeah. And I met, all of them I met in, you know, elementary school. And they're still my friends. Like, and we still see each other all the time and talk. I mean, I talk to them. We're on a life, we're on a group chat. And we, it's every day we're texting all day long. But you guys are the same. Yeah. Yeah. And it's really like an amazing thing. Because when you have friendships that have lasted for so many years. Like, they've seen you through all the different phases and there's so many phases of life, you know? Yeah. So many. And so there's like this unspoken safety, I think, and comfort that like I've tried to make new friends. Like I've tried to make like mom friends. Yeah. And there's like a few that have stuck around maybe like two or three,

but the rest are just fucking freaks. And like I am just like, but you don't always know at the beginning. So you're like, oh, this person's cool. And then they do something and you're just like, oh my God. Like that's terrifying. Like, yeah. You know what I mean? And so it that has been the hardest thing for me, I think, is because I don't know, who I was when I was younger is so different than who I am now. I mean, that's how it's supposed to go. Right. But that friendship has like survived. And sometimes I like think it's amazing to meet adult friends because you meet them sort of like where you're at and you find this like commonality now. And, you know, versus when you were, you know, seven or 13.

Right. But I haven't been able really to find that same comfort or, I don't know, it's like, it's just like you don't have to ever think around them. Yeah, it's the best feeling. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. So we've been talking about this a lot lately.

We read an amazing book and it just like got us thinking. What book? It's called How to Break Up with Your Friend. friends. Oh. And we're not breaking up. Okay, good. I was like, is this the moment? We want to tell you something. Okay. No, but it just has us examining friendships. And so the tricky part with being friends with people for that amount of time is most of the time you grow at different speeds. 100%. Right? So there's sometimes where you're pulling them up or you're backing away or you're coming closer. Like, you can't all grow at the same speed at the same time. Right. Right. And these

relationships are what actually, I'm not going to say matter more than family, but they're the ones. Although you're chosen. Yeah. But they're the ones who see you through the first romance to the, sometimes people with divorce, sometimes having kids, to losing parents. Like, these are the people that are going to go through all of that with you. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to curate that comfort with new people. Yeah. Like even if I don't see you guys for a year, when I'm around you guys, it feels like home. Exactly. And so I think that that's like, it's really hard to, also I feel like it's like in this life, you have like not that much. You know, you think like, oh, we have so much time, but life is so short. And the time that

you spend like outside of your family or work or whatever, it has to, for me, it has to like really feel cozy to me. Yep. Or I don't want to do it. Me too. Absolutely. Yeah. That's the key to it.

And I won't do it anymore. Like I just say like, I'm so sorry. I really, that sounds horrible. Like I don't want to do that. Like I'm not going to Vegas. Yeah. No. And also like that my friends in that moment were like, one of them was like, this is so not

you and you're going to, someone might throw up on your shoe and you're just like really not going to like this. I'm telling you right now. And I was like, you're right. Yeah. This is not me. And I'm trying to do it for you. So thanks for like giving me the.

the out because like you know that like it wouldn't be fun right for you or me so also a good friend yeah totally yeah and also in these comfort groups like obviously in your group you have some like mega famous whatever and going through all that yeah but it's still the same friendship yeah you know and it feels like i don't know it just feels like it's not even you forget yeah it's like and then like you go out and you're like oh oh that's right that's right i mean i'm sure that we we're hanging out, you were at like the top of like the OC, whatever. And it was crazy going out with you. But like when we were home, we would forget, you know? Right, right, right, right, right. You were at the very beginning of like this. It was the very beginning. Yeah. And you've kept this incredible career all these years. Like, that's really

hard to do. Yeah. It's, you know, it is, I just think it is interesting like talking about like the growing, you know, and all of it and the people. But I think if you meet young, and it's not every. It's not everybody because there are relationships that have definitely, you know, broken up. And I have a, you know, I went through a friend breakup. And it was so painful. Oh my God. And it was so painful. And we've since like come back together in a different way. Like, yeah. But we were friends my whole life, you know, and we just, I think it just kind of had to happen. And, um, but I was like devastated. I mean, it's like you're losing a family member, you know? Um. Was it because like something happened?

It was just like it was just like bound to happen at some point. Right. And it did. And it was so dramatic and insane. And then life happened. And we just realized that like that wasn't really like that important, you know, in the scheme of things. Right. You know, so we don't have to be talking all the time and we don't have to be.

But like we'll always be there for each other. You know? Yeah. Right. I think that that is just like. you can move past it. Yeah. But it's almost like once the toothpaste is out of the tube.

Yeah. There is no putting it back. No, none. And so those things can happen. You can move past them and always have love for the person, but it's not like you can go back to what it was before. No. And I think that that's okay.

I agree. I agree. I agree. Relationships change and they grow and they, you know, and if you're going in one direction and there's certain friendships that like can go in different directions and then they always come, when they come back together, it feels like. no time has passed. Then there's certain, you know, friendships where you're just like, I don't, like, I don't, like, we don't, we don't, we're not connecting at the same.

We're not like on this, we're not on the same vibration. That's what my healer says. Well, it's true. Our energies aren't matching at the moment. And then I, you know, and then it's not like a negative thing. It's not like your energy's bad. My energy's bad. Yours is good. You know, whatever it is. It's just like this isn't. And, and also if, like, if it, if it doesn't make me feel good, like, and I'm not saying I need someone to be, like, telling me that I'll tell you. and everything every day. But I just mean like if it's if I feel bad about myself around somebody like I can't I can't do it. Like it's just like it's not worth it. And that's different than like somebody coming and giving me like

amazing, you know, constructive criticism like that I can take. But if it's someone like trying to like make me feel bad, I can't do it. And I feel like also when there is somebody in the group that is famous, I think it's really comforting to have people around you that you know where your friends before we'll be your friends always and like don't want anything from you. Right. You know, I think that that's like, I mean, it's a big, a big deal. Yeah. But you also grew up with an incredibly famous father. Yeah.

So you already had that. I mean, it made me crazy. Yeah. But like, you already had that. Yeah. Well, I found out actually, um, on Tuesday that I have OCD. You didn't know. Like officially.

I didn't. Hold on. Also, like they, I was told that I had ADD when I was younger. And I didn't. I actually have OCD. And so I like would always think that like I just like thought differently. I know that like I get like stuck on things. I don't have like the OCD where I have to like clap three times before I like leave the house. But I like just get stuck on thoughts. And I remember like with my dad being so public and like people always staring that I felt like I had to overcompensate so that like they would like me and not think I was like whatever they thought I was instead of

just like being myself. And so I would like I would almost be like two separate people kind of. I'm always who I am. But like I would just like I would just like try so hard. I don't know with a famous parent. It's just it's a different kind of thing. And I feel like when you grow up with a famous parent, it's like a club. Because other people you can't really like you can't imagine what it's like and it's amazing. And it's I have so many like amazing opportunities because of it. Like, nobody would have ever, like, let my mom and I do a podcast. You know what I mean? Or like, dude, you were born for it. Maybe, but like millions of people are, you know, but it definitely help. And I was like, and he will be on it. Like, he's going to do it too. Yeah. And I'd be like,

dad, come on in. But I just mean, like, there's so many great things. But it also is like, it's such a mind fuck. It has to be. Yeah. Well, I wonder because, you know, my daughter has a father who's like in one of the biggest franchise if not the biggest. Yeah. And I took her to like a premiere because his movie was being re-released and she watched her dad like come on stage and the reaction. And I'm wondering like, but to her it's not anything. Does that make sense? I wouldn't even watch.

I won't even watch my dad. Right. It gross. It like upsets me. I don't I just I don't know why. I find it like so. He's so good. I find it like repulsive.

I don't know why. I get that. I watched Barry. I was so upset. Like, when he died, I cried or didn't die when they, like, framed him for murder. I don't even know what they did. But I cried, like, hysterically. Like, Rob was like, are you okay? Are you good? Like, it's acting. I was like, oh, I just, like, don't like it. I just can't see. And I wonder how she. I just wonder because she obviously, you know, and she sees the stuff and the conventions and like whatnot. Right. Does she like, is she like, my dad is? Not at all. Not at all. Do you guys talk to her about it? it do you like prep her like your daddy's going to get up and everybody's going to because like even the videos of him at conventions and stuff like that people are going ham yeah it was a wild like he surprised people at the el caputon for like whatever or a screening and it was actually kind of insane but i've seen it before because i had been to like a star war celebration and she has two so i just think because

it started so young she's just like part of her life yeah i think yeah and she never talks about it But my dad will kill you because he's Darth Vader, you know? But also, like, it's cool. Like, to me, I'm like, I feel like, obviously the term nepo baby and all of that stuff is so wildly used. And we see it in this industry and every industry. Every industry has it, right? And it's made to sound so negative. But what about the kids that are going through it?

And it's like, there's a part of it that is really cool. Like if I was sitting there and I saw my mom go up on stage and everyone was going crazy because of something she did, that hasn't happened. My mom? No. Oh, no. Yes, it has. She just hasn't been there for it. When broad ideas goes on tour.

No, but what I'm saying is there's also something that I feel like is taken from children of famous parents where it's like not to brag or not to over. do it, but there's a part of it that's like, it is really fun. Yeah. And exciting. And, like, you're also, she's also allowed to enjoy that, right? Right. And I wonder if it would be different if, well, not to say that, like, boys are necessarily into Star Wars more than girls, but I do think, like, boys are more excited that that was

her dad than she, you know what? I'm not going to go there because of whatever, because everybody likes Star Wars. Stupid. I mean, my kids love Star Wars. I saw a video of Hayden and everyone was going crazy and Shepard was sitting next to me. And he's like, what are you watching? He's like barely saying it. Like he's like, what is that?

And I said, that's Breyer's daddy. And he was like, what? Like literally losing it. And it was cute to see his friend's daddy. Yeah. I thought it was adorable. Yeah. Yeah.

That is cute. It is. Yeah. But like I feel like there is a part that it's like almost like, You have to privately celebrate that, you know? Right. I don't know. I mean, I definitely, like, always celebrated it.

Good. Okay, good. But I think I did it because I was so used to people liking me for that reason that I thought that they'd only like me for that reason. So I always led with that. Like, if somebody wasn't being, like, exactly how, like, I assumed that they should be. I would, like, work it into the conversation. And then inevitably, their, their actions would change. So I saw that like that was sort of like currency, I think.

Yeah. And I it, I think it like, it wasn't great for myself to steam. But I think like, but I think that that was just like I would notice like people treat you so differently. Yeah. And they treat you differently if you're alone versus like when you're with that person. But what about your kids? I mean, my kids are like, ACE is not like that. Jules told everyone at his summer camp that my best friend was Kim Kardashian and that she was coming to pick him up.

That's a flip. Yeah. And I was like, you were like, Kim, you better get him right now. I was like, you have to come pick him up. Like, can you come? She was like, okay. Like, she's so good. Like that, she's just the fucking best.

I was saying this like on my podcast, I was talking about how like everybody at school at my son's school was like talking about the bar mitzvah. they were like, we're, you know, Monroe's excited. And I'd be like, who's Monroe? And like, why is everyone so excited? And then I realized, they all knew that she was going to be there. So it was like, you know, it was like, you know, it was such a. And then it was so wild. But I like, you forget. Like I was like, Ace, why is everyone like freaking out about your Mermitsville? Like, what do I have to do? Do I have to get like a special guest? Like, I, what's happening? And then he was like, mom. And I was like, oh, okay. I'm dead.

But, yeah, I mean, and then Gus is like, you know, tells every single person. My dad, my pop is a famous actor. Oh. You know, he's just like before he can speak. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then Gus goes for, yeah, yeah.

He goes for, my pop is a famous actor. So I'm going to be an actor as he says. That's really cute. That's really cute. You bring up an important point, though, that about the self-esteem. Yeah. Which I think is so important. to talk about, I was realizing I could, I found myself doing it in a way like, oh, I have this

thing in my pocket, which I, I deem makes me likable. Right. And I started thinking about that going, what is that? Why is not you not being you enough? I know. So, and I watched a mom who she's beautiful. And I see people treat her different than they treat other people. people. My mom. Oh, your mom. I'm saying my mom just being pretty is treated different. Everywhere we go, people will come up to her like she's famous. The doctors treat her different. The people treat her different. And I think it's given her self-esteem. And I look at that and go, that's not a valid form of self-esteem, nor is who I'm friends with or what I do or who I know or what I look. is or anything like that. Any of it. So then if none of that matters, what is the root of self-esteem

and how does one develop it? Oh my God. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I just, I, that's like the one thing that I always want my kids. You know, I always say, like, I don't care if they get straight A's. Like, I just want them to be kind and I want them to have a really good sense of self because I think that if you have a strong sense of self, then life just is a bit easier. Like I just think like things don't get you like so like down in the same way. Like it, you don't get like bogged down with all the same stuff if you know who you are. You know, whoever that is. I don't care, you know, and and whatever they are is who they are, you know, but I don't know. I try to just sort of like encourage them to be themselves.

but I really don't know. I've dealt with self-esteem issues my whole life. And I don't even know why. And I grew up with parents who were like, you are amazing. Like anything, you just walked. That was so great. You know, like anything. And I don't know. I don't know, but I want to know because I want to give that to my kids. And I'd like that for me and for everyone I know. Like that's such a great thing to feel. Yeah, it's like when you sell a house and they say, okay, it's time to remove contingencies. It's like what does self-esteem look like when you remove contingencies? And to me, I'm like, that's the goal personally and then also for my kids. But it's not if you're a good baseball player.

It's not any of those things because they can all change. Right. You know? Right. And they will change. And they will change. So all, like all that stuff will change. Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I feel like I finally got a sense of self like in my 30s. Like I don't think like I. I think honestly it's when I started, this is about humanity. That's what I was going to just ask. I think that that's like when I started my nonprofit with my two incredible partners. I feel like that's when I finally had like a sense of self because it was something that we built together. And that I felt really, really, really strongly about and passionate about. And it had nothing to do with anything else except for like a need that we saw needed to be met.

And I love that. And that is when, like, I found, like, my passion. I loved being a teacher and I love being a mom. So I think, like, honestly, that's, like, where my self-esteem started to, like, come from some, and also being a mom. Right. That was like a, that was a big, huge turning point for me in my life. Tell us about your nonprofit. So this is about humanity is seven years old, almost. and we are a like organization that's dedicated to raising awareness and educating people on the families that have been separated at the U.S.-Mexico border. And we, the most important thing about it is that it's not political in any way.

I mean, I know that the idea of immigration, it's not really about immigration. It's about human beings and humanity. That's literally all it's about. And so I think people have a really hard time separating the two. And that's like our hope is that we can help you to realize that this isn't about like Republicans, Democrat. It doesn't matter. Like it's just about humanity. And so, yeah, so we've, it's been going on now for seven years.

We built a kitchen. We actually took over World Central's kitchen, World Central Kitchen's kitchen in Tijuana. and we feed over 3,100 people a day. So great. Yeah. So we're on track to feed a million people this year, which is like insane. And yeah, I think once I started just becoming passionate about things that, I don't know, filled me and my bucket. I don't know.

I just, I've started to feel like more like, okay, I'm more sure of who I am now because I have these things that I love and that, you know, that I, when you start to like build things or when you parent or when you have something that's kind of your own it just feels different I think when you're not in someone else's well right right I think I think a lot of that you know and it was in your 30s and whatever and I just think with age and kids and everything else it really does start to put things into perspective differently beyond yeah I can't believe that I'm 404 like I'm shook by yeah when the baby when my baby visitor comes over and I'm like think we're the same. Yeah.

And she's like looking at me like, that's cute. Like the older woman, you know, like I just like, Wendy, what's up? Like, you know what I mean? Like, oh, do you know so and so? She's like, no, I don't. She's so nice. But like I forget how old we are. Oh, we do all the time.

We say that all the time. We're like, the thing people don't prepare you for with aging is it's just you. Yeah. Older. Right. Right. Nothing else is different inside. Right. Except for, I do think we get so much more comfort in ourselves.

Yes. Like, me too. Me on. You just don't care. So many more like don't give a fuck. No. Yeah. It's just like you're more comfortable being like saying no, I think.

Right. For me. Me too. It's all boundaries. That doesn't happen. Yeah. No. And you're not sure of your boundaries and you don't know how to like, and you don't know when it's

okay to you, you know, like. I think boundaries is such an amazing thing when you have them. I didn't have them for so many years. No. But my son, Jules, who's in high and he's obsessed with Biggie Smalls, and I know every word. And he was like, how do you know this? And I was like, oh, it's like from when I was younger. And he was like, wait, it's old.

And I was like, excuse you. He's like, it's an oldies. It still hits. Yeah. But it's so funny, like just their, like how they look at us, you know, like, right? that we're like now the adults in the room is wild. It doesn't make it. We're like, no, no, no.

I'm like, no, the grownups, I'm not the grown up. You know what I mean? Like, it's so, that I have a 13 year old is wild. That is. How is he with that? Because Elliot tells me all the time I'm cringe. And I'm like, no, I'm cool. He's really sweet.

Yeah. But he's definitely like, we had a bunch of his friends over. We girls and boys, they were like swimming and we like were doing someores. And we were cooking. He was cooking. He was cooking for everybody because he loves to cook. He's always good. He's an amazing cook.

Yeah. And I was like, so embarrassing. One of the girls was like they were doing a TikTok dance and I was like, oh my God, can I follow you? And Ace was like, I'm sorry. Oh, no. Like, don't ask my friends if you can follow them. And I was like, I just wanted to see the dance.

And he was like, get out. Like it was so, I felt so. I thought you were to be in the dance. I did. I thought you were too. I was like, should I do it? But like, you know, like, and then I was like, can I follow you? And they were like, no.

Like, there's like, and then Rob will like laugh like that I'm like busy Phillips or who is it in the original mean girls. Like the cool, you know, I'm a cool mom. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, the best. I'm a cool mom. Yeah. So Rob's like, you're being like weird cool mom like back off. Yeah.

How do we stop it? But it's just like, you know. But then I'm like, what are you guys talking about? Like, what are you doing? Right. I was like taking pictures to send to the other moms. And he was like, are you out of your mind? You know, like, it's just like.

In those moments, I'm like, I'm not cool. I'm so scared because I still feel like I fall in like the, like, Briar, like wants to hang out with me and all of that. But he still wants to hang out with me. Okay. Just like when his friends are all around, he's like, can you back off? But he's still like, we go out to lunch or dinner. Like we cook together. Oh, yeah.

Okay. He'll like hold my hand. Oh, good. Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. Yeah. It's so sweet. Yeah.

Yeah. I think you're fun for life. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I think it just depends. I will say like depending on she had like a new friend a few years ago and like she stopped kissing me. And I was like what? And then it came out later.

She's like, mom, I was just scared of this friend who said like that's gross to like kiss your parents. So that's why I stop. But I don't listen to them anymore. I know. It was like something like that. Whatever. Yeah. But how amazing that she could tell you to.

I know. You know, like that's all you want. Yeah. You know, is for them to be able to like tell you open and open up. Yeah. Which is huge. I just was saying to Ace because now these 13 I was like, um. let's make an emoji that you can text me at any time if you want to get picked up.

Oh, I love that. Or if you want to, you know, you don't have to say anything. You just send that emoji and like, I'm there out. I'm there what means. Yeah. And like, I'll be there and there's no questions asked. Right. You won't have to explain.

You can just call me or text me and tell me, you know? Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. I just did that. Someone told me to do that. Did you hear about those hand signals? No.

Oh, my gosh. What hand signals? What hand signals? This girl's life got saved Because there was like a TikTok thing Going on like if you do a certain hand signal It means that Kevin's not in it It means that you're not safe

So this girl had been kidnapped And she did a hand signal to the car next to him They knew the hand signal Called the police got her What? Yeah But it's like a TikTok hand signal Is that I'm gonna have to like

I learned about it on to go deep and like find the hand signal No I think we all need to know the hand signal Yeah we need to know the hand signal I don't know I don't know I don't remember off the top of my head. I don't either. I just know that that happened.

But the emoji has to be super random because it's not one that he like just texts often. Yeah. So the shrimp. No. Yeah. The shrimp or like the gorilla or like the whale. Like it's got to be something. He picked like one that's not that random.

So we should have that conversation actually. What are you going to do when he starts like wanting to go to parties and like a teenager, teenager? I mean, do you guys know where he hangs out, Century City? No. Like they just walk around the mall or whatever. They go like for lunch or dinner or they like go to the movies. Like a group of girls and boys. And he was just telling me that he's really into shopping right now. And the stories he's nice that are cotton on and Paxon. That's perfect. I know. That's great. Because it was Kith. So this is like way better. But yeah. And he has his own style. The other day he came out in jorts that were leopard. And I was great. And I was. And he has his own style. The other day he came out in jorts that were leopard. And I was. I was like, what? And he was like, why are you laughing? And I was like, I can't tell like, is this serious?

Or like, are you aware of them? And he was like, yeah. He just told me today. He was like, the brands that fit me really well are Palace and ALD. And I was like, okay. Thank you so much. Like, got it. Got it.

But yeah. I mean, it's hard. And you have such different personalities in all three of your boys. They're so different. Like, couldn't be more. Couldn't be more different. One is like, Ace was very into sports. still loves them, but he is very passionate

about cooking. Jules is obsessed with football and baseball, and Gus is like Liza Minnelli. So it's just like, I don't know, like, it's just like all the time. Yeah. So I literally all day just spent, like, it's like they can't, God forbid they all do the fucking same activity. You know what I mean? Like, I just

got an email about Gus's dance competition. I can't. And it's just, I would pay. It was like to miss school. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? Like, he's not missing school. Like my seven-year-old to dance. He does a solo to espresso. No.

And he'll be doing it again at another dance competition. I need to see this. Yeah, no, it's wild. It's so wild. What kind of dance? It's hip hop. Okay. Yeah.

He'll steaks lyrical jazz. Does he? He sure does. And yeah, but they're just all so different. Oh, my God. I mean, at the core, they're very similar, you know, and they all look a lot of like. Yes, they really do.

But they all look like a winkler. Especially if they're getting older, it's like, wait. I know. Everyone thinks that Gus, a Jewel's an ace are twins. And Jules. They look so much alike. And Ace is like, I'm 13 and he's nine. So no, we're not.

That's offensive. Yeah. Do any of them remind you of Rob? Like, are there one? No, they're all like me. They are. Jules is the most like Rob. Yeah.

Because he's just like the most normal. Ace is like me. Ace and I both like have like major anxiety. And Gus and I are the same person. And that's why we just like brawl. Like he'll just be like, you know, like he just like yells and I yell back. And we're just like, but we, we're just like, but we. We, we, they're, Jules is the most like Rob.

Okay. Yeah. But we're all like tight. Like we hang out. We, you know, like, we're, we like hanging out with our kids. Yeah. It's like, you know what's interesting. And we were talking earlier about how like you kind of gain like other mom friends or whatever.

But the thing that I find and like what we really relate on and you're, you're the same is like parents that actually like want to be with their kids. Yeah. And so there's maybe one or two that I. I've, you know, made since Breyer started school that I'm really close to. And that you can be like, let me bounce this off of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Where so many people are like, oh my God, like kids. Like just drop off the kids. We're on vacation. You know, it's just like different. I've never had a kids club kid. So I wouldn't even know what that felt like.

I know. But like I and like I never would assume that they would go to kids club when we're on vacation because it's like we're on vacation. Right. Like together. My kids have never done it. Like my kids just like. I wish they would sometimes in the sense of like weird.

Because I'm like, not even for me. I need chapsic. My lips are really chapsic. You guys both love chapsic. I don't even know what I just reached. I only love that. It doesn't exist anymore. I always think when I was a kid, I wanted to play with kids.

Yeah. So I'm like, that'd be so fun. You should like go play with kids. And they're like, no. Right. I don't want to. We were just in Hawaii for spring break. And we ended up being there at the same time.

some other friends from our kids' school. And it was so fun. But their kids like all into the kids club just like half a day. And so I like tried to get them. And they were going fishing. Like and they were going to like it was so cool. Like it's not a fun. Yeah. And I was like, why would you not want to do this? And like literally they were like, can you come get us now? Yeah. Why are we here? Bride was like, wasn't that fun? Yeah. Totally. Her and her friend were like, okay, just an hour. We could go. Maybe we wanted to try to get a massage or something. My friend and I, they were like, what the fuck was. Yeah.

They were like absolutely not. It was like one hour. And I was even nervous for the hour. Like, I got to get back to her. I know. I know. I know. I know.

I know. It's funny. I don't know. Yeah. That are like on the same page. And we keep talking about this too. We think that like we're normal. Yeah.

That's what we think. I know. We're not. We're not. We're not. We're not. Right. We're not normal.

It seems like I thought we were. And then the more evidence, I'm like, oh, people are different. Yeah. They're very different. Also, like, birth order is so different. Like, you know, like, Ace is my first. Right. So, like, with Gus, I'm sure he'll be like at Coachella when he's eight.

But like, Ace wanted to go this year. And I was like with his friends. And I was like, I don't know. Wow. Yeah. It feels like. Early. And what did you go if he went?

We will, so Rob was supposed to go, but it was Passover. And all of a sudden we were like, we're super Jewish. So we have to be Passover. Rob Ace was like, what? And I was like, yeah, it's Passover. Like, sorry. He's the first time we've ever. Yeah, he was like, what?

Like, you're like, yeah, so you can't go. And he cried. He was super bummed. I mean, he was like, all his friends went, you know? And they were, and I love his friends. I love that. Yeah. But I just like, I don't know.

I felt because Rob couldn't go. I like want Rob to go for the first time. If they go together. Yeah, I get that. I get that. I saw, like, other parents bringing, like, maybe they're a teenager or a tween, and I was just thinking, like, when is the age where you're like, okay, let's do this. Well, they all win. Some people bring little kids.

Yeah. Well, that's, I feel like is different. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know, but yeah. But yeah. But yeah.

And the teenagers, I feel like it's kind of like. The cool thing to do. They get it, you know? I'm scared of having teenagers. They really want Travis Scott. They want Travis Scott so bad. Yeah, but I was like, so Travis Scott goes on at, like, 12, which really means he probably goes on at one. And then you're going to.

In the morning? In the morning? Yeah. No, that is ludicrous. Yeah. But no, so he didn't go, but maybe next year. But, yeah, Ace loves hardcore rap. That's so cute.

That's his number one. I love that. You know what I think about lately of, like, making new friends? And this is something that we found in you when we first met you. You were the kind of friend that from day one, it was like, let's lay in bed together. Yeah. Oh, my God. Heaven.

Like, day one, it was like we were in your bed and it was like, oh, we're home. And then you have those other people you could know forever and you're never going to get in their bed. Ever. And I don't want friends. I can't like. No, me either. I just don't even want it. If we're at my house and we go towards my bedroom, Olivia immediately gets in my bed.

Yeah. In the bed. What could be better? Nothing. The only thing is if you get into my bed with regular clothes on you kicked out. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, she let her?

Well. Yeah, she lets me. Under the sheet, under the covers, it's a little like, you're going to wear your clothes on. like under the cover of the sheets. I don't love that. I could never. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, sometimes I just lay on top. I told that too. Yeah. Yeah. But it's the, it's the cozy factor of like we're not going to sit here and pretend to be like proper to normal people. Yeah. No. Wait, the funniest thing, though, is because I, I don't know, like, I was talking to my therapist once about like if I have social anxiety or whatever.

And she's like, I think you're just extremely shy. So, like, when we first. first were around you, I was like, I'm obsessed with Zoe. Leah, you need to go over and make her our friend. Like, I couldn't do it myself, so I made Leah do it. And she did. She was like the first one. I'm like, you need to make sure Zoe's our friend.

So you need to go over there and make that happen. She did. And she did it. I miss her too. I haven't seen her in so long. Oh, God. That time was such a time. Yeah, we were like, she's our friend.

Yeah. But you weren't like, your girlfriends weren't around. You were like with your boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is not. You dated him for a while.

Oh my God. So long. I talked about him on one podcast and he told me it was like defamation so I can't do it again. I think he was kidding. But I was definitely like not great. But yeah. He was such like. And then we broke up.

He cheated on me. We broke up. And I was devastated. And like, could you imagine if like, that was my life now? No. I'd die. Like I... Is he, what does he do? He has a great, I mean, he has a great job. He's good life. Yeah, he has a great life and he's married to like a really, really, really, really amazing, lovely woman who's pretty and he's a son and... Yeah. Yeah. We were there through those times. Oh my God. That was not a good time. No, that was a really dark

that was. That was a very dark time for me. It was. That was, I was devastated. Devastated. And also, like, I think to myself all the time, like, you wanted someone back that she on you. Like, that you saw proof that cheated on you. Like, you saw pictures and he cheated on you. Yeah. I remember the girl? Yes. Oh, my God, that girl. I do. I do. Oh, my God. That was a time. Oh, my God. That was like a real. Remember she threatened to, like, kick my ass and I cried? Did she? Yeah, I cried. Did she? That's really me. And, like, I don't understand what you're saying. I feel like you're not. Like, that's not nice. We all held that grudge. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. We went down for that one.

Yeah, we went to the grave with that crush. And I still fucking hold it. I'm like, I'm happily married. Have three kids. Like, obsessed with my husband. And I hate that woman. That was rough. She came to my house.

She came to your house? Remember, she hung out with us, hung out in my house and was having sex with my boyfriend. What? Wait. Yes. Okay. She came to like Fourth of July. She came to parties at my house.

That's right. She pretended to be my friend and was having sex with my boyfriend. Yeah. But speaking to cheating. We were talking about that this morning. We were. We felt like cheating. No, I'm cheating.

But like as you get older, it seems to lose less of the severity. Like, well, look, it's circumstantial and it's like person to person, whatever. But it seems to be less of a big deal. If Rob cheated on me, he'd be dead. Right. And she feels that way about Jack. She said I'm an outlier for feeling like that. If you, you do not mean, there would be no coming back.

My point is as you get older and let's say you have a partner of like, and I know you guys, I know how you guys are, but like, you know, 20 to 30 years and you're like there's no emotional connection. It's just physical to like experience something else because it's something I need to do. Absolutely not. Nope. I know you two would never let that happen. Never.

But could you see in another situation? No. I was like for me that's like so if it was a conversation I think if someone came to me and said that if my like my husband came to me and was like I want I'd be like then we're not meant to be what if it's like a best friend of yours in their relationship like do you feel like you would have understanding for that I would never I would always I wouldn't like I can't judge right right right it's just for me right that's right and I can't judge somebody that like has infidelity and stays like I think that you do whatever works for you and there's like zero judgment and like I'm sure. it works out great. I would not be able to move forward. Like just me as a human, like it would just be so painful for me because I am so like all in. And I just don't think I could do that. If it was a conversation and like if my best friend said to me like I want to experience something else, I would say like talk to your husband about it or your wife or like have that conversation. Yeah. You know, like that I can respect like if it's something, you know, if you're not getting your needs met.

I mean, there's so many different. Everyone's different. We're the same. Yeah. Because Rachel's like, and I told her too, I was like, I think even you would feel that way if Jeff cheated on me. Yeah. Like, well, yeah. And he said to me the other day, he said, do you care if I go on a guy's trip to ski, whatever, whatever?

And I said, listen, I don't care what you do. As long as you don't cheat on me or do something to put your life in danger. Right. go have a blast. Does he not go on Boy's trips? Well, he's like, okay, so don't cheat on you and don't do anything that'll put me in danger. And I said, yeah. And he's like, I'm going to tell him I can't go.

But, because Rock goes away with his friends once a year. He goes skiing with that. I wouldn't care in a million years. I'm like, please go. And to Vegas. By the way, like, I don't trip on that at all. She wants him to go and do the things. Yeah.

He was like, I was just joking. I'm like as long as there's no hookers or, you know. Yeah. I want him to go experience life. Of course. Yeah. That's the boundary though. Yeah. That's it.

Me too. Yeah. And by the way, like, and I love that about Rob. He'll be like, go away. Like go with your girlfriends. Yeah. Go, you know, like take a break. Like, and him too.

Like, he works so hard. Like, I want him to do that. Same. Yeah. But yeah. No. Cheating to me is like a real. It's a hard line.

It's a hard line. Yeah. That makes sense. Mm-hmm. I mean, I definitely, when I was younger, like, agree. I also haven't, you know, I haven't been in a long term in like a minute. So I'm coming from a different mentality because I'm not actually like in something. Right.

Or I'd be like, I will kill you if you do that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's just interesting, though. I would guess people have like open marriages. They do? They do.

They do. That we don't know. 100%. That we know that we don't know have them. I would imagine. I would say yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's happening. We have friends that tried it, but it didn't work. Right. Yeah. They're divorced now.

I can't imagine that it would work. Like, that's insane to think that it would. Right. But maybe it would. Some people, I think, are so detached emotionally as humans. But maybe it's also that they're detached sexually. Yeah. Because I don't think it can just be physical.

I mean, for it's, well, personally, it's hard. I have, I have had experiences, though, where it's just physical. I'm sure I have to. Yeah. Like I was like never want to be. No. But I think my brain would always go to like, but what if? Of course.

The fantasy. Yeah. Yeah, but also. You're going to fall in love with me and marry. If it's personal. Then I'm going to be like, no, thanks. Here's where it gets confusing. So if you say it's just physical, right?

Mm-hmm. If I were to go do that and it just be physical, it's so deeply personal that I would hurt the person I'm with. Mm-hmm. in order to just have something physical, it's not physical. That's a deeply personal choice of some sort of need that's not being met. Yeah. Right?

And so unless it's an agreement, like, we're both cool with this. We're both fine to go do physical things outside of the marriage. If you're doing it without your partner's consent, it can't just be physical. Right. Because you're making a choice to hurt another person. Yeah. Right. And I feel like for me, like, do you ever watch like,

a movie or something. I'm watching that show Friends and Neighbors right now. Me too. Oh my God. Love. And I like anxiety when I'm watching it, you know, because like, and I think like all the time like to live with like a lie would be impossible for me. Like the it would like the anxiety alone of like being caught or found out or you know, I mean obviously I'm not going to like start stealing from people but like you know like and of any sort would just be too much for me to take. Right. I don't know how to do it. Yeah. I don't even if I'm like, you know, I tell Rachel the weirdest things. I'm like, you should know I'm going to dinner with other people tonight.

She's literally. She was like, I felt weird. You kept talking and didn't hear me say I was going to dinner. So I have to tell you now that I went to dinner last night. I'm like, that is weird that you went to dinner. And I didn't know that you went to dinner last night. Because it's kind of creepy. You know what I mean?

It's like kind of creepy if I was like, I went. Is your whole group of friends still tight? Yeah. But different. Yeah. No. But different is like the asterisk there. Go ahead.

No, but it goes to like things just change. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. And like her and I were kind of same path. Like mom's first like that, you know, so it's like, it's just different. Do you guys have another interview after me? No.

No. No. Who are you in? Are you doing interviews now? Is it like hit or miss? We do both. You do both. Yeah.

I do like conversations. Like I just did this woman mother could who I didn't. never know about, but she is the biggest, like, mommy blogger. She's like $2.1 million. She's crazy. Yeah, I don't, she's amazing. I've interviewed, like, some housewives. That was a really fun moment for me. And then, like, Max has come on. My sister-in-law has come on. My mom, obviously, my dad. So, like, but we just, like, went on a little break for summer because I'm going to be traveling so much. Yeah. So should we do a tour together? Yeah. Yeah. Let's do a tour.

Great. I'm serious. Great. That would be the most fun in the world. We would have the best. Like us on a bus? Let's do it. Zoe on a bus.

But like a good one. You lost me a bus. I don't understand. I want to go on a tour bus with you. Okay. Okay. My mom won't come though. She would never do a bus.

She'll fly. She'll meet us there. We'll do the tour bus and she'll come. Guy you said bus and like, do you know who you're talking to? I was like, Kevin, I had train dreams last night. It was so. Weird. They're on my YouTube now. The trains? Oh yeah. Japan trains too.

That's so weird. I was just in Japan and I was telling him we took the bullet train, which is on his list. Did you guys see that there's like the New Orient Express train? What? It's supposed to be like insane. No? Yeah. Where? I don't know. In Asia? Asia. Yeah, but like I don't know, but I saw it. I came across my thing, my feed and it was so nice. Yeah. We're all being fed trains. Yeah. I saw someone take a train, have you seen this? And it has like a private little like pod. Yeah. This is my entire YouTube channel. It was on my Instagram and I'm like that looks so cozy. It was like 13 like from Austria to somewhere and they were in like this little. Yeah, it looks like amazing. Oh, I want to see. I just,

I want a little. Yeah. I will edit this podcast and have those videos in the background. Oh. Perfect. Perfect. It's amazing. All right. We're going on a train or a bus or a plane. I can't wait. We're going on tour. We're going on tour. Let's do it. That would be. The most. The most. Oh my God, I would die. That would be so fun. I love you guys.

Thank you for having me. Love you so much. I want to keep doing it. See you on tour. Can I tell you how much I appreciated Zoe being like, do not wear your street clothes like into my bed? I know, but sometimes I wear my street clothes into your bed. I don't love it. Like in the bed?

Like on the bed. I'm on the bed. I'm not like in your bed. When you get back from like an airplane. I don't go in the sheets. Would you go in the sheets in your airplane clothes? No, but I don't go in the sheets in my street clothes either. In my bed.

In my bed. I don't do it in your bed. I go on my bed. Sometimes you go in the bed, don't you? You know what? Maybe if I'm in like sweats. That's different. That's different, yeah.

Airplane clothes, though. Do you take them off immediately? Yeah. Have we talked about this? Yeah. I'm talking about airplanes and clothes, but I don't think we've talked about airplane clothes. Maybe not immediately, but I do think about, I don't know, kind of like a post-COVID thing. I'm now like much more aware of germs on planes.

And so I feel like I change a little faster than I definitely normally do. Do you wipe down your seat when you get on the bed? That I don't. And I honestly should. But my wife does. But I do wash my hands way more now. I think in the last like two years than I haven't probably my whole life. And you probably have been sick less too.

I have. It's a proven fact. I even like when Lee and I go for a walk around the block, we both wash our hands when we get home and we're not even doing any. I don't know. It's just like, it's just like when you get in fact into the house. Yeah. I can relate to that. He's like when we go on a walk, we wear these bubbles that protect us.

We play in the dirt. Well, that is one thing that's not as good Is the overwashing of the hands for the kids isn't good Really? They need the germs in order to build immunity That makes sense Like Jeff doesn't get sick Because he's been exposed to so many germs

Oh, I see what you're saying So like we'll get taken out the whole family We'll be like boom boom, boom Sure And even if it's like a flu like fevers and throwing up And all of that And he's like, I'm fine. Yeah.

I'm like, that's weird. My, whenever I get sick, it is, I want to say 99% of the time if I'm sleep deprived. Right. If I go multiple days without good sleep, almost guaranteed I get sick. But it's never like, oh, I was around sick people. So I guess I have a pretty good immune system. But if I go, it's like three days, like probably on the hour. It's just like, all right, I'm sick.

I'm out for a couple of people. days. It's always sleep related. Can we talk about sleep? Sure. That's Olivia's favorite thing. We're talking about it before we started too. Oh, yeah, we were. How many hours asleep do you guys need a night? How many do you want? And how many do you get?

My body wakes me up after seven no matter what. Wow. Yeah. Not thrilled. Do you think you need more? I don't know. They say seven is legit. Don't they? I think it's... Well, I know the general is like eight, but I feel like seven's the new eight.

Doesn't it drop an hour like every decade of your life or something? Does it? Because like old people get up so early. Yeah, like 5 a.m. I get up early. You don't get up early? You get up early because you have to. I get up early, but the thing is, is that I think my body actually needs...

I get like seven hours. Yeah. I think my body needs nine. Twelve. Twelve, maybe. Yeah. Like a kid. Huh?

Like a kid. Yeah. I don't think I'm getting enough sleep. I'm definitely getting less. And now I weirdly have been napping more. Never like long naps, but I don't know, 30, 45 minutes because I've had pretty consistently, very early recordings, but I'm a night owl. So I will go to bed at 2.

Whoa. 2.30, most nights. Get up at 7. Whoa. And then around 3. crash. Yeah. And then sleep for whatever, 45 minutes or an hour, get up, and then kind of go through the day. But I am at my best when I'm at like seven plus. So I've been doing a lot of like five hour nap in the middle of the day and then keep pushing. So it doesn't feel good. Someone was giving me a hard time about it recently. Yeah. It doesn't. Why? So why can't you go to sleep earlier? I am a I'm a hundred percent awake at two in the morning. Whoa.

Are you sure that's not because you're napping every day at three? Probably, but even then, Leah's the opposite. She just always gets up at 6 a.m. seven days a week. And I'm the inverse of it where I just can't, I'm always awake between midnight and 2 a.m. for some reason. And I've tried like hacking it a little bit, but I kind of. of like being up. There's something very soothing about being up when I just get so much done if it's work stuff or cleaning stuff or anything. And so I don't know. I don't mind it that much. But then when I consistently have like, all right, I have to get up at 7 a.m. every day. And I'm going

to bed at 2 or 3. Eventually my body will adjust to it. But that's kind of the weird thing with my work is the schedules change every day. Right. What time does Leah go to sleep? 11. Oh. Yeah. She, between 11 and midnight. Oh, late. Yeah, sometimes earlier.

I'm like, I try to force myself to 9.30, so I sleep through the night. Yeah. She probably would go to sleep earlier if it wasn't for me. Because I'm just wide awake. But like we were saying, she can function at with five, six hours every single day. Women, I find. Oh, except for you. No, no.

actually, never mind. I think my circadian rhythm is messed up because of getting up at five every day. Sure. So I can get seven hours, but if I stretch that seven hours out and I go to sleep at like 11 and wake up later, I'm not as tired. So it could be the same amount of hours, but getting up in the dark. There's something to getting up at like 5 a.m. I don't think it's good for me. It's not good for you for sure.

But I know when I do that throughout the day. I'll be so tired by like three or four. Just because I've been up since five. No matter how much sleep I got. Yeah, it doesn't matter the hours. It's like when you wake up. Interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's the dark. I think it's a circadian rhythm thing. It could be. What does Jeff say? He doesn't think it's good for me. It's not good for you. He thinks that I should be working out later in the days.

Yeah. Yeah. You're built completely differently. What does Nicole do? She's like ready and raring to go. Like if she has to wake up at 4.30, boom. And she's there and ready. Yeah.

And she will stay up till like 11, 12 at night. Whereas I'm forcing myself, I'll go to sleep at like 8.30, get up at 5 and be like ruined for the day. Where she's like, what? I feel great. And I'm like, I don't understand. You're just built differently. Yeah. You can't.

You can't do that program. I took today off. You did? Yeah. Yeah. I wrote them last night and I was like, guys, I need to sleep because we've got baseball games in the morning on Saturday and Sunday. And I'm just like, I need a day to sleep. Seven.

Oh, that's like a sleep then. That's sleeping in for me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's fantastic. You feel good? No. I'm so tired.

I'm even more tired, I think. Because my body was like. Confused. Confused. Did you get to sleep in Porto Viorta? Which, by the way, it's on. Yes, every day. My friend posted Instagram today, Fun Time and PV.

I knew what he was referring to because of you guys. That is so funny. Yeah. I slept in every day until my body wanted to wake up. Yeah. That's the thing is that I'm never, I'm never sleeping until my body says it's time to wake up. Right. It's all alarm based.

Yeah. Children. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't like it. I like the children. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just don't like waking up early. Yeah.

I always wake up before Breyer. I don't understand that I know I don't know What are you thinking about What do you mean? Like what are you thinking about? What's waking you up?

Coffee No but you wake up And I'm excited to go make my coffee Okay so you're just like Let's go The day is upon us Love it At night I just get excited

That I get to go to sleep To wake up to my coffee You know this. So you get to like lay there in bed and drink it. No. Oh, what do you do then? I have to make her lunch and do all the things and she's still asleep and then I wake her up. Here's the thing.

I did all that last night because I knew I wanted to sleep in. Yeah. So I was like, I'm going to get ahead of this bad boy and make the lunches and get their outfits out and have everything ready. The night before. So that I can sleep until seven. Mm-hmm. It was good. Yeah.

I don't make the lunch the night before. I don't either. I know. But it did work out well. Good. I should do it again. Yeah. Do you make their lunch every day?

Yeah. You have to because of allergies because of Elliot? Yeah, Elliot can't eat anything at school. Right. I had a recording canceled this morning and you would think that like before this one and you would think my body would be like, great, more sleep. and I did get to sleep more, but I think my brain also was like, I'm the same way.

I get woken up by alarms every morning. And I think that keep the, like I kept changing the wake up time. So then I think my mind and body did not feel aligned of like, what's happening? When are we waking up? Yeah. And so then I just was,

even though I technically got more sleep, I was a little, I could just feel like, okay, I am more rested, but my body was like, don't fuck with us. Yeah. It's interesting.

It is interesting. I want to go to sleep right now. It's making me want to go to sleep. You know how we know we're real friends. How? We had a bunch of meetings the other day and a bunch of stuff to do. And we sat down on the couch and we both said, we're going to close our eyes. And we just both closed her eyes and fell asleep for a little bit and woke up and got back to our death.

But to me, that signifies true comfort. Well, here's the thing. You're sharing a hotel room with someone you don't know very well, okay? Oh, no. Exactly. But how do you know when to be like, okay, time to stop talking and just go to sleep? Do you not find that awkward? I find it awkward that you're sharing hotel room with someone you don't know.

Complete stranger. Yeah, like what's up? No, like a new friend, let's say. Like you're not at that comfort level, you know? That's horrible. Like, how do you know when to like, you know that awkward? Like, oh, okay, now time to just stop talking and go to sleep. See, whereas us, we could just be like, stop talking.

Yeah. I'm going to go to sleep. We don't have to say it. We just fall asleep while the other person's talking. I went on a podcast tour like seven years ago with a show. And I knew all of the engineers. We all worked together for years. And I was responsible for booking all the rooms and didn't really think anything of it.

I was like 25 or something. And so I just booked. And it was all men, but I would book the room. And then they'd be like, okay, in what room am I? And I'd give them like basically the duplicate of Mikey. And they'd be like, are we sharing a room? And I didn't like at the time think anything of it. And then every guy was like, what are we doing?

I was like, it's not the same bed. But they were like, okay, next time I want my own room. Yeah. That's really funny. I think that's a big deal. But it was a similar thing. of like, okay, good night. Yeah.

Like, what the fuck is my life? Okay, I guess stop talking. I sleep. I did go on like, we had to go to this festival thing and I went with Nadine. Yeah. And we're sleeping in the same bed and. Not even the two double beds? No, we're sleeping in the same bed.

But that's fine. No, I know. But I mean, like in a room usually you can get to. Go ahead. But here's the problem. What? She listens to meditations. as she goes to sleep.

But then do they stop? No. Oh, no. So one night it didn't stop. And it's like an ad came in at like two in the morning. It's like, this is Jason Statham. It was like some random like. It has to turn off.

So I had to go around and turn it off. And she woke up and I was standing over her in the middle of the night. She's like, ah. And I'm like, this is when you die. But I had to like go find her from her. And it turned off. It didn't turn off. It would wake me up.

Yeah. So the next night I was like, I love you. The meditation is fine. It has to stop, though. It has to turn off because the ads come in screaming at you. Yeah, I know. No. I know.

I've done it all. You have. Yes, because I'll have kids that sleepover that need the white noise or this or that or like, you know. But I've done it myself where sometimes even if the air purifier stays on all night. Yeah. Like that noise, it'll just wake me up. Oh, see, I like the noise. Me too.

I'll do my white noise machine broke and Jeff snores so bad. Oh, no. So now I can't do that. Do it on my phone. But Spotify does have a 10 hour. I know. I've done those. 10 hour.

That's wild. It's amazing. Lee and I don't have a TV in our bedroom and we went to Vegas with a group of friends last year. And it was similar to like two like beds in one room. We're with our friends. and they were like, oh, we're just, we have the TV on every night before we go to bed. And I was like, sure, okay, I didn't really think anything of it. But then I was like, I can't fall asleep.

Yeah. Because they just had a show playing. And it was, the volume was quiet. But eventually when I noticed they fell asleep, I went over and turned it off. I was like, I'm just going to be awake the whole night. Can I tell you when I went into labor and in delivery in the hotel? Hotel. What hotel?

In the hospital. And I'm laying there. And the sun came up. And they're like, okay, now you have the epidural. Like, you can sleep. Try to sleep. Well, Hayden fell asleep on the couch, but he left the TV on. So I laid in the hospital bed where I couldn't get up, like I couldn't get up, nothing.

And the TV was on, so I couldn't fall asleep. Why didn't you do the nurse button? You know, I would never press a nurse button. For sleep, I would fucking scream worse. You would. Hell yeah. No, I'm the one that would be like, I can't bother the nurse. Yeah.

Where I would press that button and be like, I'm so sorry, I can't sleep. The noise is on and I can't reach a remote. And I remember being so mad at him. He's like passed out and I'm like laying in the hospital bed. Yeah. And the TV was left on so I couldn't fall asleep. That sounds like probably every relationship. Yeah.

Totally. Yeah, Leah can fall asleep immediately. It's like a superpower. I can't. It takes me a very long time and fall asleep. But Jeff will, like, I'll fall asleep. We'll be watching a show. I'll fall asleep.

Yeah. So then he'll change it to, like, one of his things, which are like, loud. Action. Loud. And I'm just like, oh, my God, can you just put back on what we were watching? Yeah. And then I'll catch up. Uh-huh.

So now that's what we do a lot of the times. I have to go back and watch it. My parents have YouTube TV and, like, set up. up at our place, which I guess you could do. And so Lee and I have been having like the news on when we're making dinner and I'm like, man, I haven't listened to commercials in like years. Yeah. It feels kind of, but we like it. It's like comforting. It feels nostalgic. Our kids, they're like, what's a commercial? Uh-huh. I know. And then you'll randomly, what? What? I was just going to say sometimes I'll see like someone,

I know. I'm like, oh, there's David Haley on the Oseptic commercial. You know, it'll just be like, that's interesting. I forgot commercials existed. Yeah. I forgot that you existed. Except for. There's more.

She's trying to go to sleep. I know. I'm like, I'm done, guys. We're done here. I do watch the news every night. I can't watch the news. Check out Zoe's podcast Yes

What in the Winkler What in the Winkler Everyone needs a Winkler Dude You guys are gonna be on it soon Oh we are Very excited Yep

Oh on the podcast Yeah Yes not the news He's like You never know I'm going to murder you Last episode Yeah

Okay bye Hey guys This is our final episode You will see us on the news That was a HeadGum podcast.