Brooke and Connor Make A Podcast - If She Wanted To She Would

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

Phoebe Berman’s Gonna Lose It out NOW: https://sites.prh.com/phoebe-bermans-gonna-lose-it SUBSCRIBE TO THE BNC CHANNEL: https://bit.ly/45Pspyl  Ad Free & Bonus Episodes: https://bit.ly/3OZxwpr This week, Brooke welcomes her long time friend and legend of the pod: Lindsay! Lindsay talks about finding love all over the globe, learning 8 languages, and her crush on high school Spanish teacher. Plus, her and Brooke reminisce on their favorite memories growing up together!  Join our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/5356639204457124/  Shop Everyday Cotton, and all of my favorite bras and underwear at http://www.skims.com/BNC  #skimspartner Get 40% off select Lola Blankets products at https://Lolablankets.com  by using code BNC at checkout. Experience the world’s #1 blanket with Lola Blankets. Download the Poshmark app and use invite code BNC when you sign up to get $10 off your first purchase. Or shop now at https://Poshmark.com/BNC and get $10 off your first purchase. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit https://ARTICLE.COM/BNC and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout  B+C IG: https://www.instagram.com/bncmap/ B+C Twitter: https://twitter.com/bncmap TMG Studios YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/tinymeatgang TMG Studios IG: https://www.instagram.com/realtmgstudios/ TMG Studios Twitter: https://twitter.com/realtmgstudios BROOKE https://www.instagram.com/brookeaverick https://twitter.com/ladyefron https://www.tiktok.com/@ladyefron  CONNOR https://www.instagram.com/fibula/ https://twitter.com/fibulaa https://www.tiktok.com/@fibulaa Hosted by Brooke Averick & Connor Wood, Created by TMG Studios, Brooke Averick & Connor Wood, and Produced by TMG Studios, Brooke Averick & Connor Wood. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, we want to take a break to thank a sponsor of today's episode, Skims. You've heard me say it before, but Skims really does just keep getting better. I've always struggled with finding underwear and bras that are actually comfortable all day, like no digging, no weird bunching, nothing that makes you want to rip it off the second you get home, and Skims completely solved that for me. It's the kind of stuff I reach for every single day because it just fits right and feels good. I've been obsessed with their new everyday cotton collection. I'm a huge cotton girl, but it's honestly hard to find cotton pieces that still feel flattering and not boring. And the everyday cotton scoop bra is so good. It is that same flattering shape I already loved, but now in this super soft, breathable cotton that I can

wear literally all day. It makes me feel comfortable but still put together. Shop everyday cotton and all of my favorite bras and underwear at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the drop. on menu that follows. Hey everyone, welcome back to Brooke and Connor. Connor is not here today, but Brooke is and we have a very, very special guest, a friend of the podcast. If you've been listening, you've heard me mention my friend, Lindsay, before, I'm my best friend from growing up. Lindsay's here today. Hey, Lindsay. Hi, hi, everyone. Hey, thanks so much for joining us all the way from across the pond. Yep. I'm right live from my work office in London. Yeah. Thanks for coming.

We really are so glad to have you. I was asking Izzy, like what have I said about you before? And I think it's pretty bare bones. So we have a lot, we have a lot to go into today. But I think really what I've said is that you are a world traveler. Yeah. You speak a few, few different languages. Yeah. And something special about you is that you, I don't want to say collect because that feels wrong. But like you have like a few different lovers from the areas that you've been to. Yeah.

I would say I'm monogamous. So I definitely don't typically have more than one at the same time. You're a what? Monogamous. Oh, okay. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. That's key. No, you're, and I would even say you're, you're. a bit of a hopeless romantic. Yes, absolutely. Which I really love about you because I think objectively you are the most brilliant person I know, you know, Columbia grad, you're a lawyer, but you are also able to become mentally incapacitated by love. And I love that. Very much so. Extreme to the point where you also like need to seek help of an outside professional. So I love that about you and I think that is actually what keeps us so many things keep us connected so many things

keep us connected but that is the big thing that I think has has woven our thread throughout the years yeah so yeah I just want to dive a little bit deeper into a few of those things I guess starting with our history you know okay we went through K through 12 together we did and I've spoken you know about our school yeah you know a little bit people know about meeting for worship. People know that a lot of people came out during meeting for worship. I think they know that you are one of those people. So it'll be really interesting because I've only spoken about what it was like to be a receiver of people standing up in meeting for worship. So it'll be cool to hear what it was like to be a giver. Okay. Um, should, should I down? No, sorry. I'm still

gotten him going through. Oh, you're doing a, okay. I'm doing more of like an intro and then I'm going to really open the floor to you. Okay. Just kind of going through our background a little bit. So we've known each other since kindergarten. I think we were in the same first grade class, 1B. Michelle did. I don't know how much we connected in 1B.

I definitely admired you, you know. I feel like we really connected in third grade, right? 3C, that's right. In 3C. Which looking back was the classroom for the neurodivergent folk, would you say? Um, certainly, certainly we, we would be evidence suggesting that. Yeah. Well, there was a, yeah, I think there was a bigger.

It was like the kids who needed a little bit of extra TLC. And I think that's when we started, is that when we started with the sponges? I think, yes, that that's the, that was when we started with all the fads that with the different crazy bones and sponges and all the different fads. Yeah, we were collectors. We were collectors. I think it was when we became very close was in fifth or sixth grade when you moved to my street. Yes, agreed. Started that connection in third grade when we drew faces on sponges and, you know, they were our family.

The sponges and stress balls as well. Those were remembers of our family. Tomogogachis. Tomogachis. Yeah. The gogos. Yeah. Started collecting.

And then when I moved to your street, it was game over. And can, okay, I can share that this was. fun that Brooke would routinely run away from home. And her parents, her parents would call my house and be like just checking that Brooke is there. And we'd be like, yeah, she's here. And they're like, okay, great, don't tell her we called. I didn't know that they did that. Yeah, they called. That's nice to know that they cared because I was always like, they don't care about me. Yeah, I would run away. I would say maybe once a week or so, once or twice.

but did even apart from running away spent my entire adolescence at your home? Apart from running away. I would say. And you're also the creative mind behind Greece and Wicked and all of the plays that we did. The producer. You were the producer. And I think that also speaks to your character is that you didn't even feel the need to be a main character. You were just fine to be the creative mind.

Yeah. So, I mean, you are really something. I was just avert. I was, actually, I think that was my main role. I was Sweeney Todd. Oh, I don't remember that. You don't remember that I was Sweeney Todd? I don't really remember Sweeney Todd.

It's because we never edited it together, but. It's not a final product. We didn't make a final product. Yeah, we didn't. There was no execution. But, no, there was, but I don't think we still have access to it, which is why it faded away. That's probably for the best because I think Sweenie Todd and Lamee is, especially. I was like, it's almost like it's not cute anymore.

Like we were like, maybe like, had lay miss seen the light of day? No, I'm not showing laymiss. Because that was, I, we're 18. We were 18. Yeah, I think we were like juniors or seniors in high school. Possibly a little bit too old to be doing the home videos. No, you know what? You're never too old to be doing that.

Has gravity the musical seen the light of day? Has what? Gravity the musical. No. Mm-hmm. No. It's unlisted, so. Gravity, the musical was, and this is like the kind of school we went to, like you could do anything for your physics final project.

So we made a musical called Gravity the Musical. Limited science involved. No science involved. No, I would say no science involved. But we, it was like, it was a musical about, about the story. It was a gay story of Copernicus and who's the other one? Kepler. Kepler.

Yeah, so. Got a 97 on it. Got a 97. I thought we got a 98. Might have been. Yeah. So that's a little bit about our history. And now I'm going to dive into some hard-hitting questions.

Okay. How many languages do you speak? Eight. Okay. Not all fluently. But I will say that all but one are connected to have been at one point or another connected to at least one lady. Are you comfortable walking us through kind of which languages you speak and how they're romantically tied to your life?

Yeah, but I'll just, I'll just. And level of proficiency. I'll be very, very brief. And then don't have to be brief. Like, this is why we're here. Oh, this is why we're here. Well, I was going to say I could do a brief summary and then we could dive, dig more deeply into what you felt was worth digging into. But I feel that whatever you are, you want to speak about is what's worth being said.

So my first language I learned was Spanish. Started learning in middle school, was obsessed. Did whatever. I was in love with my high school Spanish teacher. I was going to say, like, do you think you would have been in love with Spanish if you weren't in love with your teacher? I don't think I said that in a domain she could hear. But I'm sure she knew. So it's all right.

Wait, you were also in love with the middle school Spanish teacher, but you didn't know you were gay. So you didn't know that that was. I find that one more cringe. a little more cringe, but I was unaware, yeah. Yeah. I would say it's safe to say you've been in love with every Spanish teacher you've had. I think it's safe to say. I think it's safe to say.

I really do. Like most language teachers I've had that are female, I'd say. It's hard not to get feeling. Yeah, because that's what you find attractive, I get. Right. It's just them speaking in other language. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that's your big one, is Spanish. Yes. So that's the one that's the one that.

I speak, that I speak, like, I would say, like, very, very fluently. I also did have my relationship of two, two and a half years with a Dominican woman who we are, the relationship, primary language was Spanish. Yes. Um, then Russian, I, and you were able to step into more of a stepmother role. Is that okay to say? Yeah. Well, no, I never acted. She has, she had, she still has a son. I don't think I ever acted like a stepmother to him. I think I just acted kind of like a friend. But actually, a fun fact.

For his birthday, I got him Japanese lessons because he was, like, obsessed with, like, anime. And I was like, okay, but you need to see that Japan is, like, beyond anime. So I got Japanese lessons for him. And then the next year... That's a great gift. Yeah, then the next year on his birthday, he was like, Lindsay, I was like, oh, I got you a gift.

And he was like, is it school? Please tell me it's not school. And I was... That's a good lesson. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. But it was thoughtful.

So my ex never told him that we were dating, but she also never lied to him while we were dating. And then afterwards, she figured out that he knew because he was like, should I say it in, I'll say it in Spanish, in English. And he's like, he's like, la ex de my mom's my mom's ex is very smart. Oh, that's sweet. That's really sweet. Yeah. But that was a more recent relationship. That was a really recent one.

Yeah. But how old were you when you started dating a woman with a child? Because I remember being jarred. I was 25. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's like, I guess that's fine. Yeah. It was, like, I met her and I only, I thought that it was only ever going to be a hookup.

So, like, because otherwise I don't think I would have gone on a date with a woman who was 10 years older than me had a child. but then I really liked her. And so I was just like, well, I guess I'm living with her and her child now. That's fine to do. It's fine to do. And I did. Yep. And you did.

Okay. Spanish. Yeah, that's Spanish. Check the bases. Oh, there were also like many, many, like I lived in Chicago for three years in law school. And like, there are many lovely Spanish-speaking ladies there that I had flings with. So that's another wing of Spanish. But Russian, I was an exchange student in Russia when I was 16.

And actually, that was how I realized I was gay. My first kiss with a woman and first having sex with a woman was in Nizhinov Godod, Russia. Yeah. I don't think she does not speak English, nor does anyone she knows. So I think it's fine to say. I think it's fine to say. I also do want to flag that imagine my shock. We're 16.

We're sophomores in high school. Our school has no sort of like program or anything like that. And Lindsay is just like, all right, I'm going to head out for about six months to Nisninov Grod. Yep. You'll always remember that city. I would say I was like this was not a good time in my life. Like I was really dependent on you. Yeah.

And so I was like really. really sad to see you go. And you also only had access to email. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So couldn't even talk to you. It was before smartphones. So I didn't have a smartphone. And I did not bring a computer because I wanted to be immersed in the experience. So I was just really accessing the internet when I borrowed my host sister's computer to use email. So couldn't really talk to her. And I asked her. I don't remember why I asked you this, but I think I was joking when I was like,

do you think we'll still be friends? That was in college. That was in college? No, because I said something else. I said something. I'm conflating two incidents. I think there was another thing and you were like, or I said something about like, don't forget me or something or like something.

and you were like, I'll, like, genuinely earnestly, like, I'll try not to, like, because you're not capable of lying. Yeah. So that I was spiraling a bit when you were in Nizny. But you came back and it was all good. I remember when I came back. I remember the first time that I saw you, you were just, like, kind of like hysterically laughing, but borderline crying. And I'm like, Brooke, I'm here. And you were like, but you weren't.

You weren't. You had left. But you came back. Yep. Can I ask what compelled you to go to Russia as a sophomore for six months with no prior Russian, like, Russian experience? I didn't have any prior language college of Russian at the time I went. Because I think I've always been drawn to, like, the other, like, controversy and, like,

the other side. So, like, to me, like, Russia seemed, and I think a lot of languages I've learned, it's, like, in some ways are, like, the bad guys. I also learned Persian. I also learned Arabic. I'm not, I don't think they're the bad guys, but they're people who are portrayed in like the U.S. media and like often misunderstood, misportrayed. Like I'd say like Russian speakers, Persian speakers and Arabic speakers, you could say that. So I think I've always been drawn to like learning more and like seeing things from all perspectives. And that's also why I became a lawyer, because I like seeing things from different perspectives. Human rights lawyer, no less. Human rights lawyer, no less. And how's your, do you want to talk a little bit more about that romance and becoming and finding out you were gay or do you want to move on? We can move on. It was, it was, I think it was in Russia. Oh, I will.

One last thing I'll say is that I did hook up with a Russian police officer, who I met in Russia. This is separate from my host sister. This was on a subsequent visit to Russia. So I met her on Fkantactia, which is the Russian Facebook. Exactly. Yeah. And we met. I was talking to her. I'm like, so what do you, what do you do for a living? And she's like,

I'm a police officer. And I laughed because I thought she was joking because Russia's like pretty actively like persecutes gay people. And she was like, no, I am. I'll show you my uniform. And then at that point, I was like, I will be hooking up with her because for the rest of my life, like, I will be able to have this experience of having, having hooked up with a, with a police woman of the Russian Federation. And I have had that. You get to say that on BNCMAP. It's a blessing for everyone involved. Which is such a blessing.

Yep. And would you say like you're still fluent in Russian? I would say so. I would say definitely I'm more comfortable in Spanish than in Russian. It is a bit rusty because I don't practice it that much. But like when I need to use it, I can get back in the groove. Like the in my job, the like woman who covers Russia visited and like we were speaking Russian. It was fun.

Yeah. I will say because of you, like, I'm able to recognize what languages are around me. Whereas I don't think that would be the case without you. Like, I can distinguish Russian from Arabic, I think, or Farsi because I've heard you speak. Right. Them. I can definitely at least do Russian. Hey, guys, we want to take a break to thank a sponsor of today's episode, Lola Blankets.

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And if you're anything like me and have clothes sitting in your closet, that you never wear, you can also sell them on Poshmark. With access to more than 80 million users, it's a great way to give your items a second life and make some extra money. Find what feels like you. Shop and share your style on Poshmark today. Download the Poshmark app and use invite code B and C when you sign up to get $10 off your first purchase. Or shop now on Pashmark.com slash B and C and get $10 off your first purchase. That's POSHM-A-K.com slash B-N-C. Okay. Spanish Russian. Yeah, the Spanish Russian. So then I was manned down at age 18 when I fell in love for the first time. This is a big one. With a girl who was Persian American. Yeah. But it was out of love for her that I learned Farsi. Yes. Yeah. Fair to do.

She, yeah, at the time and throughout the entire course of her relationship, identified as straight, asked me. to be her girlfriend by saying, if you want, you can tell people that I'm your girlfriend. She was the greatest. She was the greatest. That was my first love. Yeah. But then I did start taking Persian in undergrad for that reason. But I also, I majored in linguistics so that I could not only take Persian, but also other

languages. So I also started studying Mandarin in undergrad. Pause? Because I want to go back to the first. love real quick. Yeah, Doc. That was the first time I like you really transcended beyond language in terms of morphing, I would say because like becoming like more like not more like her but like I see changing some other aspects. Like for example in high school you would wear different unique things to school I'd say a few times that you were in. I did dress.

as the teacher I had a crush on for dress like a teacher day. But like she wasn't my teacher and had never been. So it was really weird. Yeah. I'm thinking more of like when you would show up in like more like a Tanzanian cloth. Oh. Yeah. That was just because of my travels. I know. But I'm saying like you weren't necessarily like doing like high fashion. No, never. And I do want to flag that one of our teachers did pull you aside and offer to give you her daughter's hammy downs. Right. No, I think what you're thinking of is the cafeteria lady. I was walking through to get a cookie after lunch and she just was like, you can go. And I was like, no, like, I'll pay for it.

That's fine. And she's like, no, no, just go. Like, because of the way I was dressed, she was assuming that I was not able to afford some snack. No, I remember, or maybe she told me to tell you. I don't know. Maybe, maybe. Madame, remember Pajot? Pajot Pavlotte.

I thought she was like, you can have. these clothes. No, I think you're right. You're right, actually. That's ringing up. It wasn't ringing a bell until you said which teacher it was, but now it is. So basically, not dressed of the nines. Okay. Yeah, never. But you started shopping at Urban Outfitters when you started being this woman. And you really became like into fashion, which was shocking. Yeah. As someone who presented the way you did. Which is over now. Yeah, which is over. So it's interesting to see what you carry with you. True. And then what I don't. But I do usually carry the languages with me. It's stunning how you carry the language with you. After I broke up with, yeah, after we, actually I broke up. Well, after we broke up, I, yeah, I continued learning Farsi. And in fact, like, most of the learning Farsi was after that. So, yeah. Should we move to? Yeah. Yeah. So then I was learning Mandarin.

which is the only language that's never been tied to a woman. So any eligible Mandarin-speaking ladies, extra points. If you don't say English, extra points. Because then I'll learn very quickly. Yeah. Do you want to flag? Like, you're single? Or are you, it's complicated.

It's complicated. It's complicated. I wouldn't. And there is a language involved. And there's a language involved. Which one? Bengali. Of course.

Okay, we'll get to Bengali. I have more questions about your current. Number nine. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Mandarin. How about do you speak that? Like, you could get around. I would say it's what I would say my like worst ones as of now are Mandarin and Arabic. I would say definitely I have survival. Like I can definitely get around in the country. I can talk about what I like. I could talk about what I did today. I can ask people how they're doing. I can like, like I would say I can do basics, but I wouldn't be comfortable like, worse. working in that language or like, like I would, yeah, definitely I'd say well enough to get around, but not, like, not comfortably. Got it. Okay, I'll come next. Yeah, so, so no Mandarin. Arabic was then coming, because then my first serious relationship was with an Arabic speaking.

Yes. Though she was also a fluent English speaker, so I never really learned from her, but it learned out of love for her. Exactly. Um, and, yeah, uh,

that was, that was, again, though, like, we broke up like, not too long after I started and I did continue learning despite that.

So we love that. Then, um, most recently, I think that's every, I think that's, then there's most French. French.

Oh, French. Okay, so, so I'll say then French I've never, like I haven't taken. I think I took one year. one year in high school of French.

Yeah, and I took six and you surpassed me like fairly immediately in skill level. But it's quite similar to Spanish. And so I just went to France for a few months. And then I was able to learn from that. And I have had French romances because both the Persian American girl and the Arabic-speaking girl that I dated also were French-speaker. and actually spoke like French to me sometimes. So that's how I can say French was also a love language.

Do you think like you could get around in France? Oh, without a doubt. I speak French a lot better than Arabic and Chinese. Ridiculous. Like French, because it's so similar to Spanish, I would say French I understand 100%. And like my speaking- 100%.

You could watch a movie in French and fully understand the film? Yeah. I wouldn't understand every word, but, like, I would absolutely be able to follow it, like, follow what's happening. Wow. Can you start talking to me in French and I want to see if I understand it? Okay. Okay. Now, I said that I'm talking about French, so I'm a bit nervous, because if I did something incorrect, all the world will comment that that I'm not wrong. I understood every word of that.

Excellent. You were saying that right now, you're saying that you speak French, but you're getting a little bit nervous because if you make a mistake, someone will say something. Yeah, exactimal. Yeah. So I could probably get around. I think you speak better than you think you do and you're just, like, you're just nervous. Like, wasn't there a time when you did an exchange in France and you, like, had to speak? There was, but I didn't because you.

as you know, our French teacher spoke with a very unique accent. Yeah. And she still does probably. Which she still does. And it, it, it bled into all of our accents. And so everyone was like pretty made fun of by the French students for the way that we spoke. And so I really didn't want to speak. And so I didn't say a French word until the last day of our French exchange, which was over two weeks in France.

But yeah, I don't, I think, like, you spoke slowly enough for me to understand, and usually French is really fast. And like, and like, and all the words are plenty of the one. And, like, I think, like, their language maternal is the same language. Like, I'm like, I'm English. I'm sorry, like, my, like, my French, it's more easy for you than the French of someone of France. Exactly. You're French. Yours is easier to understand because you're American.

You speak English. So that's what you were saying. Exactly. I'm just translating for those who are not understood. Yeah, yeah. But I think you're better than you have yourself credit for. Like, you used to read books in French. I could not read a book in French.

You tried. Like you were. I used to be able to. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, yeah. For fur. But I did go to pay.

Harris recently and I couldn't. There was not one thing I understood. I was trying to like read the street. No, I think it's it's easier. What I was saying for the public is like I speak French with an American accent and my first language is English. So my syntax is also kind of English-esque. So I think it's actually easier for Brooke to understand me than it would be for Brooke to understand a native French speaker. Yeah, for surely. Yeah. But it's not my, it's not my best. My yeah, my best is Spanish followed by Russian. And then I would say, I would say if we're ranking, Spanish is the best, then Russian. I would say the ones where I'm good, but not fluent, are like French, Hindi and, um... You didn't touch on Hindi. We're getting there. French Hindi and, um, what, what, Farsi. And then the ones where I'm just conversational are Arabic and Chinese. Got it.

Hindi was the most recent one Well aside from Bengali which I just started But it was the most recent one Due to So I lived in India for about a year There have been many wonderful Indian Indian ladies in my life But the one who I learned Hindi from

Was She actually didn't speak English and still doesn't So that was the lingua franca of our relationship, which lasted four months. It was a Hindi-only relationship. And that was a jump start. That was actually the first time I've ever had a relationship with someone who, like, actually, that's not true. I was going to say who didn't speak any English, but like Yulia, my host sister also doesn't speak any English. But I would say it was, I would say it was the first time I had had a relationship in a language that I like really wasn't fluent in,

or wasn't comfortable in because like I'd done it in Spanish and Russian but like I speak those a lot better. But when I when I met this girl like my Hindi was not not good enough to have a relationship. And it got there quickly. How do you start a relationship with someone that where you don't speak the same language? Like how did you and her even begin to like understand that you were romantically interested in each other? I kind of had a crush on her from afar and how I initially. it was we were having a conversation like I had to I basically I was I was in order to I like to put myself in like extreme immersion situations so in order to learn Hindi I went to an extremely rural part of India which is Kandwa district Madhya Pradesh yeah and I was volunteering for like a grassroots NGO there and she was one of the people that worked for the NGO um so I'd a crush on her and I think how I first broached it was like a I said to her, but I'm going to frame it, like, probably how it sounded to her. I was like, my country, marriage, girl, girl marriage, boy, boy marriage, my country. You in my country, you like girl, girl marriage, you like boy marriage. And she was like... And she was like... A question you were asking? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was trying to say, in my very limited Hindi, would you prefer to marry a man or a woman if you had a boy? Good question. Yeah. And she said, without hesitation, a girl. And I was like, oh, that's, that's, that's, that's really, that's really interesting. But part of me just thought that really interesting to me. Part of me thought it's just because like in her society, women don't have a lot of freedom. And I, by her society, I mean like rural, central Indian, the specific place, not all of India, obviously. And I can't stress this enough. Like, do you mind me saying her occupation?

Yes, and I will provide an addendum. She was like the, and this is an amazing thing to be. Like, this is no judgment at all. It's just more of a comment on like the different structures in which our societies operate. Like her occupation was the village basketweaver. Yes. And the addendum to that is that in India, there is a caste system, which is a you could Google it. But basically that was her.

families, it's too complicated and, like, loaded for me to explain, and I'm not even Indian, so I won't do it justice. That's why I said Google it. Um, but her, her cast, which is basically her family's occupation going back generations was to weave bamboo, like, handicrafts. Um, and so that is what she grew up doing. And she had to, she had to drop out of school, uh, when she was 12 years old in order to, like, weave baskets as stuff for her family, but she was really smart and really, like ambitious, which is what I liked about her. And she, despite that, she was able to eventually, like, pursue her education and start working for an NGO. I love that, Lindsay. And I think it's remarkable your ability to find the lesbian in any small rural area. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And Nisina Novgoodad. I mean, Nizchinau Kudad is not rural, but still, it's surprised as people want to help them. I wouldn't say it's a high-focused lesbian area. No, it's certainly not. Certainly not. Yeah. So it really is a remarkable thing, a talent that you have.

Yeah. Didn't like she not know that like it was an option for like to be with a woman? No, she was actually pretty woke about that. Something that like to give an idea of like what a rural environment she came from. Like I went to Delhi with her at some point in a relationship and I like put we got some like rice and we got home. I put the rice in the microwave to heat it up for her. And she was like, is that, is that heating? Like, she didn't know what the microwave was doing.

So, like, that is the level. Or I was like, Lakshmi. Yeah, whatever her name is Lakshmi. I was like, Lakshmi, you've never seen my country before. And she was like, I was like, you've probably only seen my country in movies. And she's like, I've never seen your country in movies. And I was like, you never saw an American movie. And she's like, no, I've only seen Indian movies.

So, like, it was very wide. Yeah. Yeah, definitely a wide gap. Would you say that was like why I didn't work out? I would say, I would say like in a roundabout way, yes. I think it was one of those like you fell in love with like the potential, not the person. And I think that like I deeply admire her and like her dreams and like all the amazing things she has and will achieve. But I think that like we're better as as friends than as.

And you still are. Our friends, right? And we still are friends. Actually, there's some sad news, though, but that's a downer. Oh. Her parents are forcing her to get married. Oh, my God. Yeah.

That's horrible. Yeah. To a man, I would assume. Yeah. Oh, that's really sad. It is not great. Yeah. Oh, how's she doing?

She's not happy. Yeah. Yeah. She was, I mean, like, she was, she has been, she's 30, but she has. She has been since she was the teenager denying potential prospects. But then basically there was like someone in her family had an un-like had an unmarried pregnancy and her family like freaked out and they're like all the unmarried women have to get married. And I was like, they can't force you like your financial independent.

You do your own thing. Like just just don't do it. And she's like they'll cut me out of life forever. It's like. And then speaking to like some friends who are more familiar with the context, I've realized that it's quite complicated. And, like, there are sometimes even, like, violent repercussions for, like, women who would refuse marriage in a community like this.

And it's just, like, it's tough. Fortunately, she, they were going to marry her to this guy who wouldn't even let her work. But then she convinced them to let her marry this other guy instead. And they also convinced them to wait a few months. So, like, as of now, she's, like, promised to this guy, but might not get married. And I just want to say also, like, for the, for the, like, fear, like, whatever I'm talking about, like, only, I'm only speaking about, like, Kalwa Block, Kandwa district, Madhya Pradesh. I'm not speaking about all of India. Like, no one should take this to mean that this is what India's like. This is what one specific community in India is like, but India is an incredibly diverse country. So I just wanted to put that out there. Thank you. That's pretty devastating. Yes.

For Lakshmi. Yeah. Well, I'll ask you about that more offline. Offline. We can take that offline. Hey guys, we want to take a break to thank a sponsor of today's episode, Article. I've been looking into getting a new bed. An article has so many options that feel modern, but still really timeless. It's the kind of furniture that makes your space look even more intentional without feeling overdone. Everything is designed to mix and match easily, so you don't have to stress about whether things will go together. And the whole process is really simple. Ordering is straightforward and delivering. is designed to be easy and convenient, which makes a big difference when you're buying larger pieces like a bed.

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Bengali, like, well, I've been dating. And actually, it's interesting, I met this girl a few months. I'd say it's been almost two months. Oh, it's been two months. Hinch. Happy two months. Thanks. Yeah, two months ago was our first date. Yeah, but what's cool about her is she also loves languages, and it's the first time that I've ever, like, dated someone who also likes languages, but we're still, we're getting to know each other, so we'll see how far it goes. But I'm trying to teach her Spanish, and she's trying to teach me Bengali, so that's fun.

Is Bengali her native language? That is her native language, yeah. She's from Calcutta, so that's her native language. And, or do you guys, does she speak English? She does. She does. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. She's speaking English. Okay. That way. Yeah. That's nice. That's nice. Yeah.

How's your Bengali? Um. Palona. I knew that was coming. I knew I wasn't getting an answer in English. Very good ones. Palona means not good. But.

Oh, okay. Hey. But at least you have that. Yeah. How? many countries have you been to if you know? Oh, I actually do know, I believe. Wait, actually I have an app on my phone, so let me check. But the app is, so I have been to 66 UN countries, but that doesn't include Taiwan or Palestine, so I'd say 68. Why not Taiwan? It's not recognized by a lot of countries. I had no idea. Yeah.

Because China. When were you in Taiwan? I did a summer language program there in undergrad. Okay. You know I get confused sometimes because just a little bit all over the place. There are times where I'll just open my find my friends and it's like Lindsay is in Tajikistan. Okay. I'm waiting.

I'm hoping to go to Pakistan. I'm actually waiting for my visa. Have you not been there yet? No. So that will be new. That will be fun and exciting. It will. You have opened, like there have been so many countries I didn't know existed until-

Like Tajikistan? Tajikistan and there's another stand that was completely like. Uh-huh. I actually haven't been to Kyrgyzstan, but Kyrgyzstan maybe. I don't, I actually, I think that's the first time I'm hearing of that right now. Okay. So I do think it was a different one. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And you've been there. I have in Kazakhstan where I've been to, I've been to, I've been to tremendous. as well. I've been to all the stans except Kyrgyzstan. And Pakistan and Afghanistan, but they're usually not considered part of the stons. Can I ask, what is it that draws you to the stands? Because I feel like that most people, if it's fair for me to say, like, wouldn't be like, that's where I want to go. Yeah, it wasn't really, it wasn't really, it wasn't really drawn to them. I went to Tajikistan for the first time, because I have been twice. I've spent probably

a cumulative six months in Tajikistan in my lifetime. Why? Why? So, so. the first four months was a study abroad program because I wanted to study Persian. And you can't, as an American, study Persian in Iran or Afghanistan. So that's why. It was the only thing I could study Persian. And then subsequently after that, I got a job working for this scholarship program, which gave scholarships to students from former Soviet countries to study as exchange students in the United States. and they sent you to where you had language skills. So because I spoke Russian and Persian, they sent me to a lot of those countries because they speak Russian. I remember that program. You had a romance with one of your coworkers, right?

I had a crush unrequited on one of my coworkers. She just recently got married in Canada to a man. Yes. Damn. That's okay. I lost a good one. I did, though. I did travel through four countries and I did want to like find a woman in every country during that.

job that was part of my deal. Remember, there was also Sveta, the Ukrainian, who you love. With the brain? Okay. Yeah. I don't remember her. I do. I genuinely do too. We fell out of touch, but yeah. I'm sad to hear that about you and Sveta. Are there any of the countries that you've been to that you're like, I have no desire to return? I think this is what I always say. Like, I don't think there's any. in the world that like if someone gave me a plane ticket, I wouldn't go, because I just love traveling so much. Like, I would go anywhere. I think there are definitely places that like, I definitely wouldn't go unless there was, like, I actually recently went to Budapest with

my friend and was very over, underwhelmed. I feel like Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, I've been to both of those countries twice. And like, I think I've, I've spent more time in them than like anyone, I mean, then I, I think I'd think it's enough. I wouldn't really wouldn't go out of my way to go again to Tajikistan or Uzbekistan. I was very underwhelmed by Costa Rica as well. Some of my favorites have been Mexico, India. Those are those I could go back again and again and again and again because I just think there's so much, there's so much cool stuff there. Also was a huge fan of Iran when I went there. Yeah. Do you want to talk about that? I can talk about that. Yeah. I, I, my family was not super excited about, well, I knew they wouldn't be excited about me going to Iran. So I just told them I was going to Costa Rica.

And you put someone in a, in a difficult position by telling them you were going to Iran and not to tell anyone. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. I, yeah. Hello. But he were, I had, no, I had a group chat that you were in, Brooke, of like my siblings and like my close friends who was aware that I was in Iran and I would text them updates. But my parents, most notably, were not aware until after. That was genuinely scary for me as you are like a gay Jewish person. Yeah. Yeah. American as well.

A gay Jewish American. Yeah. But my understanding is that was one of your most positive travel experiences. That was one of my best travel experiences. I have no end. Like obviously government of Iran is very bad to its people. But the people of Iran, I like have no shortage of amazing things to say. The sites there, the food there was, it was amazing.

It's great, Lins. You kind of already said this, but I was just going to ask like where next. Pakistan? Pakistan, yeah, most, most immediately. And I think, I think, well, I do want to visit every country in the world before I die. So is that possible? Probably. Like, technically, people with, like, American passports aren't allowed to go to North Korea right now. But, like, I think at my lifetime, that will probably change, or maybe I'll get another passport. Like, I, I think it's, it's something something's going to give. I don't know. I mean, I live in London. I live in London. and now, like, I could get a UK passport if I stayed here long enough.

Can you go to North Korea with a UK passport? I haven't looked into that. Okay. I'm not super pressed about it. Like, I kind of think that in my lifetime, I'll see some sort of change, whether it's to the government in North Korea or to their policy of not allowing U.S. citizens. I've never been denied a visa. Okay.

And I've gotten some really hard ones. Like, for those who know, Turkmenistan is really hard. Russia is not easy. I've gotten it several times, China, Cuba. Well, Cuba's not hard, but yeah. Is there anywhere you, like, haven't been besides Pakistan that you really want to go? Um, anywhere. Like, I would go anywhere. I think I haven't, I haven't traveled too much. I've traveled a decent amount in East Africa, but I haven't been to West Africa at all. So that would be nice. I have been, I've not been to, like, certain countries in South America. I'd really like to go to Venezuela. and I have a Venezuelan friend, so maybe I'll go with her one day.

I'm kind of shocked you haven't been there. Yeah. I think I would like to go with a local person. And it was only like in the last few years that I'd have a close enough friend that I could go with her. Love. Yeah. Okay. Well, that ends the travel portion of my notes.

So moving on to just kind of like our shared experience at school. I have, I've spoken a lot about meeting for worship. and I've told the story of Miguel, Michelle coming out as Mike. But, you know, a lot of people like came out as gay, including you. And do you want to like speak to that experience, like what it was like for you? And like I've, when you, you're supposed to stand up at Meaningful Worship if you're moved by the light to do so. And I guess I'm kind of just wondering, one, where you moved by the light to like, how? How did it feel being on the coming out?

And three, how do you look back at the experience, whatever you really want to say about it? Okay, well, I have a lot of things to say. I will say that I didn't know it was coming. I didn't know you were going to do it. And I was sitting on the facing bench, which means there's like all these benches in our auditorium that just like our normal seats that face the stage. And then there's the facing bench where there's one bench in front of the stage that looks out at the audience. So I was kind of looking out at Lindsay. when she stood up and then take it away.

Yeah. Well, I remember there weren't very many. I think what is hard for people to understand when I tell this, when we talk about this, is like how much things have changed since 2012 when this happened. Like, at the time that I came out, gay marriage was not legal in Pennsylvania. Like, and now it's like hard to imagine. but yeah, in our high school, there weren't that many people that were out. I remember, like, it was one of the most progressive high schools in the area,

and they wanted to do a presentation to the middle schoolers about LGBT, and everyone was like, it's too soon. Like, so, so, and that was a wild to think that. Yeah, how much it's changed. And, like, we had the gay straight alliance. Like, that's what it was called. Yeah. So, yeah, it had.

But I remember there was. there was a boy who was out. I think I was no one was out and are great as lesbian. There were some girls who were out as by. There was at least one that I can think of who was in a relationship with a woman. So like street cred. Why do I remember everyone coming out at meeting for worship? But like I can't actually think of like who did. Am I, is it? Am I constructing the memories? I feel like the people who came out just came out of Meaning for Worship. And maybe that's why I did too. because I was like, you have to? I'm not sure. Yeah. It was kind of like the right, like, you weren't gay until you came out of me.

Right. Right. Because like when I think about it, I'm like, I don't know even why I did that. Like, it's not really like me, my personality to do that. But maybe you weren't moved by the light. Maybe you were just like, guys, this is something I have to do. Yeah. And then there's also my brother who did come out as gay as 12, at age 12 and has only dated women subsequently. Right. Did you make a formal retractment? I don't remember. No, he never did. He's only dated women. If you ask him about it, he still is like, yes, I'm still gay. And I'm like, make it make sense. Yeah. You have an amazing collection of LGBT siblings. Yeah, three out of four. Three for four. Three for four. And the other, he's straight. But it's funny because the one straight brother is like, well, okay, to be fair, like, one of my brothers has only dated women. But because he did come out as gay in middle school. I do treat him as part of the LGBT community.

I think that he's treating him as part of the LGBT is more than fair. And then, yeah, my sister is, did you know that my sister's now doing lesbian? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I'm not close friends. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, she was doing bye for a while, but then she realized that she's lesbian, so now she's lesbian.

Yeah. And Daniel, my brother, the youngest, is straight. But his type is like very like alt, like armpit hair, green hair, short hair, kind of androgynous. So like, I hope that he'll go for a she day and thus we can be four for four. Yeah. If that's that. But like if he's dating a non-binary person, does that make him part of the LGBT community? That's a, that's a hot top.

I have spoken to him about it, and he said that he doesn't think it does. Because he's like, I don't want to like, he's like at the end of the day, like, even though I am attracted to some people who identify as non-binary, like, I think, like, I'm attracted perhaps to the pieces of them that I perceive as feminine. And he's like, to say that I was queer feels like I'm, like adopting a label that, like, isn't making sense for me. And, like, for example, he, like, I couldn't see him being into someone who was non-binary assigned male at birth.

it. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Back to meeting for worship. Back to meeting for worship. So I remember there was a boy who was out, who I was friends with, who we were all friends with. I called him the night before, Matt. Oh, and he had come. I forgot he came out at our beach meeting for worship. Yeah. That was really, yeah, yeah. So I remember my heart was beating so fast because he didn't tell anyone yet. This was the first time he was saying it. And didn't he come out as by. Yes. Yes. I remember he said that and I was like, ooh, so close. So close. Okay. I think he's very short. Lose only counts in horseshoes, though. Right. Let's not make, let's not make mountains out of molehills. That's so close. Oh, almost right on the snake eyes.

But I called him the night before and I was like, Matt, I was, because I, I was, because I, I had, though I had not come out publicly, I could come out to you, Brooke. I'm like, I had to come out to my close friends prior to meeting for worship. Right. But I called Matt and I was like, I'm thinking of it, but I'm not sure if I'm ready. And he's like, I don't think anyone's ever ready. I think you just have to have to dive in. And so I just dove in.

And another thing that I'll say is like it has been like both beautiful. It has been beautiful to see like how many people from our high school have subsequently come out. but I'm like also like wish you guys had come out when there was like three of us like that would have like it would have been nice you know but I everyone's on their own journey or if it's like a given like yeah right how did you feel when you did it um I think I felt embarrassed I think I like had some internalized homophobia like I was like does everyone need to know that and like I remember I remember, I did have some internalized homophobia. Because, like, there was a teacher at our school who was, who was lesbian and who was married to women. And I remember, like, I was like, oh, well, like, every time someone looks at her, they're going to think of her having sex with a woman.

And, like, now that's what people are going to think when they look at me. But whatever, that was internalized homophobia. Like, I don't care now. If people think that, that's great. Yeah. If people think that, hell yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

You want me to send a video? I will. Nice. I, like, I really hate to think about. Like as much as our school had its problems, like I'd hate to think about us going anywhere else, truly. Yeah. Our neurodivergent selves. I think I wouldn't have been.

I say that all the time. I say like I wasn't bullied, but like I would have been at any other school. I, right. And I just, I don't even like I. Yeah. It really. I don't like to think about it. What?

This is a bit of a non-sequitur, but I guess I, I, there is an important part of our early connection was, and it is touching on neurodivergence, was when I would have genuine sicknesses in third grade and you would go home. And I think that speaks to the link. Yeah, the bond. You have to understand. To clarify, breaking my arm. Like, I broke my arm and Brooke went home because her arm hurt.

I had to. I was sick. I did go home. This was like, this makes more sense, but like you had thrown up. Yeah. And then I was like, I can't be here. Cannot be here. You stayed, which was shocking.

But yeah, I went home. You threw up. I went home and you broke your arm and I went home. Yeah. And I would assume you went home when you broke your arm. I don't actually remember if I went home, but I do remember like we did not go to the emergency room immediately. Because I remember I came downstairs for dinner that night and I was like cradling my arm. And my mom was like, Lindsay, does your arm still hurt from when you fell?

And I was like, yes. And she was like, oh, that's not okay. We went to the doctor and it was broken. I was so jealous of your cast. Yeah. They're also, people did think we were gay together. Yeah, they did. Yeah.

I'm never beating the gay allegations. Yeah. It's not, like, of course they did. Even didn't your dad, wasn't he like if you and Lindsay are our partners? Like, I would, that's okay with me. Well, he ever, I mean, my dad is always like, it's, tell me anything. Like, it's okay to be gay. And there was a time in high school when I think I was really depressed.

And my mom was like, let me know if, if you're gay. If you're gay. And it's okay. But my dad recently confessed that he thought I was gay because we would all take naps together. And I was like, we were just sleeping. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah, I think like as like an older man in the early 2000s, he assumed like since you were a lesbian and my best friend, I was a lesbian. Yeah. Which is totally fair. I mean, yeah. I think it's in a way it's surprising that those rumors weren't, weren't stronger. I agree. The key piece of the puzzle here is there's a photo of us.

Oh, are you going to tell about the flowers? I was going to speak about, how about you start? How about you start? Okay. I love this story. I had a, oh, this is probably revealed, too, if she sees this. Something tells me she won't, but. Who knows?

It tells me she's not tuning in, but you never know. Reach out if you're tuning in. I won't even care. So there was a girl in the great above us who I had a crush on, and she was dating a boy. So I did make a card with her entire name in the Superman S's, a never-ending chain of Superman S's. wrote all the reasons why I thought she was special, cut some fresh flowers from my garden. How'd you had a conversation with her at this point?

I don't think so. We were in a club together, so we had interacted peripherally through that. Totally. But I cut some fresh flowers from the garden, had a friend give it to her. She tweeted, this is so nice, thanks so much.

So that was sweet. But then as my way of secretly revealing this to her, we haven't even gone into my stalker, but that's okay for next time. For next time. As my way of revealing this to her, I posted a prom picture with Brooke in front of the flowers. No, I didn't post it because that would have been too obvious. I made Brooke post the picture of us standing in front of the flowers that I had cut and given to her.

Am I making this up or were you actually holding me like a baby in the photo? Or were we just standing there? I think we're just standing there, but I do think there might be another photo where I'm holding you like a baby. Okay. Yeah, so you were hoping that she would make the connection, the flowers behind you or the same flowers in the bouquet. Yeah, hoping. Which like, yeah, that's pretty amazing, Lindsay. That's pretty damn amazing.

Any other, and I don't know if you're comfortable speaking about this, but any other grand gestures you would like to speak on? I mean, yeah, like, what other, what would I? I mean, like, do you, like, do we be talking about wheel for are we talking about, like, like romantic gesture. I was thinking about curtains. Oh yeah, I can't, why not? Yeah. Take off the reins. So I did, um, I did, as we know, I was in love with my Spanish teacher. And I did, we did a school-wide, so entire school students, teachers, secret Santa, um, secret snow person. And I was like, I need to get my Spanish teacher for. that. So I spoke to my... I thought she wasn't even your teacher at this point.

No, I, no, I, this is the crazy thing, Brooke, in ninth grade, I got her organically. Like, picked her name organically. But this wasn't... And then in a, and then in 11th grade, I ranked it. And in 11th grade, she was your teacher? 12th, 12th, 12th. In 12th she was, yeah. Okay. So by the time I mean, what did you get her in 9th grade? organically. Oh, what did I get her? Yeah, what was your gift? I think like Reese's and I made her a card. And you weren't in love with her yet? No, not yet. She was just like the hot milk from the oatmeal video. Yeah. Okay. So then when I was in love with her, yeah. So I did go to my friend who was the student council president and say, I'm going to need to pick her name. Is there anything you can do? And he said, well, we give envelopes out to every home room. So I can make sure she's in your envelope, but I can't.

can't make sure you pick her name because no one can do that. I was like, that's fine. Put her in my envelope. I'll take, I'll take it from there. I will take it from there. So in my home room, I announce, if anyone has teacher beep and teacher beep, they wrote my college recommendations. So I'd love to do something nice for them. Let me know when we can trade, knowing fully well that only one of those two is going to be in the envelope. Pretty damn brilliant. Yep, pretty. That's how I use my intelligence at that age. So got her I did devise

a very detailed scavenger hunt which involved like a secret alphabet and decoding messages and once you, and that was like clues over 10 days and once you finally decoded and they were like references from all the books that she had taught and like once you finally

pretty in depth I'd say Yeah. And she knew it was me too. Like there was there was a moment when we were in the school cafeteria. Brooke, do you remember this, right? I don't know. I was in the school cafeteria and she came up right behind me and was like, what are you doing? Yes, I remember that. She was like, I know that it's you, but I don't know what you're doing. And I was like, um, you were giddy giddy. Yeah. Fun fact, we are still in touch. We're still friends. Oh, I mean, the way that you weaseled yourself into her life was incredible.

Like a masterclass. And I haven't had feelings for her to clarify since high school, but I did do a master class. So I, but by the end of decoding everything, the final word was Cortinas, which means curtains in Spanish. And then I, as she discovered Cortinas on the final day, she also walked into her classroom where I had pre-installed custom-made curtains on all of her windows, which had iron-on patches from all of her favorite pieces of film and literature. And the curtains, she was like, she had been kind of like complaining about the light at one point, right?

Yeah, something like that. Like just like the glare and like needing a curtain or something. And so you had actually fashioned her a custom pair pre-installed. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yep. So, and then, yeah, there were, we also weaseled, Brooke was actually a babysitter of teachers' children. And so I weaseled my way into babysitting her child as well, because I told Brooke that she had to pretend to be sick so that I could babysit. And then once I wheezzled my way in, I was just a standing babysitter, basically. Yeah. You did some amazing work. Yep. we're still still in good touch no and the the great thing about her is that like she would love all of this

yeah i think she found it funny we've never talked about it and i always wonder like when is it like when should i tell her oh she knows baby oh she knows i think she knows but like i would be i don't know well yeah she definitely knows um i loved like obviously i walked over to lindsay's house all the time just like unannounced And one time I went and just walked like through the back and at Lindsay's pool, our teacher was just laying there sunbathing. And I was like, hey, Miss, Miss Bleep, what are you doing here? Just hanging out. Okay. Good to see you.

All right, Lindsay, I think that's really all I have for you. All right. Do you have any last words that you want to share? Hmm, what last words? Um, no, I think no. Do you have anything about like work that's important that you like want to say or not at all? Okay, so basically I do, uh, I work, yeah, I work for Human Rights Watch and I do advocacy, which basically means they put out a lot of human rights reports.

And so we try to make those human rights reports have an impact in the real world. And I'm based in London. So we do that mostly with the UK government, but in all sorts of. sorts of areas. And I will say one area that I have been very disheartened to see, like, lack of interest in both from governments and from the public, is the war in Sudan. So if anyone is interested in, like, becoming politically active around a cause that doesn't get enough attention, I would say read our recent reporting on Sudan. Hey, send me that linklens and we can blast it out in the, in the bio.

So, yay. It's like, yeah. Okay, well, I love you. And thanks for coming and thanks for sharing everything. And next time you come back, we can dive more into some other interests that you've had. Yep. And I think we haven't dived at all into, yeah, into some of my detective work. So that's maybe.

Yeah. I think we can do detective work for the next episode. Okay. All right. Thank you, everyone. Have a good day. Bye-bye. Bye.