Bros & Shows - The End of Lindsay and Carl Part 1 (Summer House Finale Full Recap Part 1)

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

What's up Bros? This season of Summer House was so good, so captivating and so polarizing that we had to break down the finale in a 2 parter. In Part 1, we see the end of the Doomsday party and Lindsay and Carl are still not able to see eye to eye. West and Ciara continue to stay in the same place as West seems to downplay every intimate moment between the two of them. Things get heated the following morning as Lindsay and Carl have the same conversation we've seen throughout the summer. Carl needs her to be more soft and tender, Lindsay needs him to step up and take care of business and get a job and stop asking to be coddled. From side conversations with other people, you can tell that both of them have reached a breaking point. The difference is, Lindsay is clearly still in it for the long haul. Carl seemingly is finished with this relationship but doesn't know how to pull the trigger. The writing is on the wall but did Lindsay get blindsided? They go to Montauk with the rest of the crew and Lindsay can't even ride with Carl there. And whatever happens on the ride home seems to be the last straw in their engagement... Cameras go down for the season, but not long after they are picked back up for the scenes that we've heard about before this season even started which will take us into Part 2 of our breakdown... Introducing BravBros Members! Offering exclusive access, bonus episodes, monthly Q&A zoom and more! Use the link below to join! https://thebros.memberful.com/join Time Stamps: Intro:0-10:00 Summer House:10:00 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by MuMu. Introducing Mutein, the new feminine fragrance by the iconic fashion house. Mutine captures the youthful, unconventional essence of the Mewewew Girl, brought to life by a gourmand, intimate and enveloping scent of wild strawberry and brown sugar accords. Mutein is not a statement, but a knowing glance, a sweet rebellion, lighthearted and laced with wit, a gesture made for oneself. Discover the new fragrance, Mutein, now available in Canada. Navigate the gauntlet of uncertainty the world throws at your business with SAP. Whether it's a tropical storm hitting your warehouse or a short supply of those little plastic twist ties,

SAP can help you tackle those unexpected crushing setbacks with its AI-powered capabilities. To pivot to new suppliers, automate paperwork, and source the twist ties you need at the price you want, so your business can stay unstoppable. Learn more at SAP.com slash uncertainty. In a deep left field by Castellanos, it will be... Oh, man, it's 8 o'clock. And so that'll make it a... I don't need the spotlight.

I shine just fine. Hi, I'm Karma. And yes, I am a bitch. Brov Bros. Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Brav Bros. Your favorite podcast from The Bros. For everybody, for whoever wants to listen, I am your co-host, Steele Russell, joined as always by the one in the one in the next.

only running and gunning McSunning. That actually worked pretty well. I'll take it. Yeah. No, look, it works really well because I know what I was going to talk about to start off the episode, and it's in line with Summerhouse, which we're going to be discussing. It was a fiery finale, one of the better episodes. What of the better seasons, yeah.

Just an absolute banger of a season, and we're going to get into everything. But the sun won this weekend. My feet got roasted. You ever get that bad footburn? But burn sucks. Oh, dude, I was so meticulous about all my sunscreen. I was cheating on Wildwood this weekend with Cape May. Gross.

Beautiful weekend to Cape May. You're gross. It was a beautiful weekend. And I got roasted on my feet to the point where my ankles swelled up. And yeah, but they're good now. That's karma. I don't feel bad. What do you want for me?

The hell did I do? She did on Wildwood. Oh, okay. Yeah. I still went to Wildwood on Sunday. Wildwood knew. That's probably when you got burned. No, no, I got burned on Friday.

actually that was the worst part i got burned on friday and then i had to spend the whole weekend going out and walking around in like tighter shoes because i got a new pair of sneakers too so then the shoes were a little tight on my swollen feet fashion is pain dude fashion is it'll look good you got you got to stuff those those fat swollen fucking sunburnt feet into those new sneaks dude just so you can look pretty at the bar that's how it works you know how it goes but uh other than that had a lovely weekend got some sun getting some color just loving it that's great i had a lovely weekend as well i have some Sundays open now for the first time in a long time, which is lovely.

And I played in a 28 and up men's baseball league on Sunday, doubleheader. First time I played in four years. I was four for six with a double, three RBIs and a sack fly, double off the center field. Well, not a big deal. Everyone calmed down. It's not a big deal at all. How are the hips? Today, I woke up a little better.

I was in shambles last night. understandably so forced myself to lift today and then walked on the stair master so i shook everything out now i'm just a little sore which is good yeah if i force myself to deadlift like specifically i don't know why makes my legs feel better double-edged sword because whatever it works so whatever yeah but uh shambles last night totally worth it i had the time of my life we've got the powder blues we've got the cream uniforms and we've got like the memorial day greens like this so the guy that runs the team is like christ he's a musooning no baseball reps.

Okay. Oh, okay. That checks out. But, yeah, I didn't know how much I missed baseball. It was, like, jokes aside, fucking blast. Do you have to get a pinch runner? No. I stole third.

Jesus. I think I was so amped up. Is that on the pitcher or the catcher? He was on the pitcher. He wasn't looking. He wasn't looking, so I skirted the third. I don't blame them. The guy fouled it off.

Yeah. That's the nice thing, because it's, like, mostly over 35-year-old men, nobody's fast. Everyone's got leg issues, so I don't look that out of place. And I think it was probably adrenaline because I was so amped up, plus four Advil, that my legs felt great for the first game. Second game, they were good until like the fifth inning, but I was playing first.

Call me Steely Harper. It was great. No one's going to call you that. I'm going to push it. No, no one's going to call you that. Castellanos. Sure. We'll go with that one.

That works, yeah. That's not bad. A little bit better, yeah. Not to mention, I had three buttons undone. You gotta do that though You gotta do that You gotta do that no matter what you're doing You're playing baseball

You're out of the bars You're just doing whatever If you've got buttons to go down Those buttons got to go down Well they start This is a good PSA Especially we're leading in the summer A little fashion tip from the bros

To the bros When you're at the bar I can no longer do this Because I don't booze anymore The looser you get The more buttons have to come down I enforce this with shooter You can tell you

When we're out in the summer If he's got a button down shirt Throughout the night I will advise him to undo one more button until there's like one or two buttons left. Correct. It just lets everyone around you know what kind of time you're having. I know that there's a negative connotation to boys being boys nowadays.

That's the real boys being boys. Yeah, helping a brother out. Helping a brother out, undoing some buttons at the bar, walking around. That's all it's all about. Over there and just like pop one more button for him. It's like midnight. We need two more buttons down, dude. Got to do it.

Yeah. And he's a good sport. He knows that's the holiday weekends. You start with two buttons down. Oh, yeah. Holiday weekend. July coming up soon. needs to be by the end of the evening

and you need to be fully unbuttoned. That's the rules. We don't make them. Them's the rules. We don't make them. We just play by them. But before we get into Summer House again, like,

I think Bravo needs to pour their focus into the non-house-wife-centric shows right now. As we heard, Jersey is not getting a reunion. It is in shambles. The people that were like, you guys always say that they need to cancel the show. We don't.

We just relay how the season's going. And it was then personified in them canceling the reunion. It's not going well. And I feel like a lot of housewife shows are, they don't seem to have a direction. That's like the sum of it. But if you look on the other side of Bravo, Summer House, banger of his season,

Southern Charm, Bangor, Southern hospitality, great. There's so many shows that aren't Housewife shows, they're doing very, very well. So I wonder if they're going to shift their focus into a different avenue. Are they going to start bringing different shows like that on? Are they going to revamp Vanderpump and bring in a new younger cast? I think those are the things that we are looking towards until they figure out the Housewives things.

And I think that they're launching off point for Housewives is going to be Rony Season 2, the new Roney reboot. I think they're going to put a lot of energy and focus into that to kind of rewrite how they're going to approach the shows. Yeah, and I haven't watched Dubai yet, so I'm not really sure, but there wasn't a lot of people talking about it. Not a whole lot of noise. So not really sure what's going to happen over there. We're covering it. Don't worry. Oh, yeah.

Don't worry. We're going to cover it. But, yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. And you see that there's other reality shows that are really popping off. So I think Bravo wants to hop on that train. Obviously, their bread and butter forever has been housewives. We don't want housewives to go away. We don't want housewives to go away.

And again, for the people who were saying, you guys always want these shares canceled, we're usually right. When this happens, we talk, and it wasn't just housewives. We talked about VPR and how it was completely faltering halfway through the season. and they have to figure it out. A week later, they say that they paused it. So, you know, we know what we're talking about. We do sit here and talk the entire time. And we do get a general vibe for what's going to happen.

So it will be interesting to see how this works, especially when you have shows like Summerhouse. Now, look, obviously, this is one of those lightning in a bottle situations where two of the mainstays from the cast who have been on for years that we know so much about went through a breakup, went through a called off wedding. You can't have that every year. We know that's not going to happen.

But everybody else stepped up. It wasn't just about Lindsay and Carl. There was so much else going on, and everything was hitting on all cylinders throughout the entire season. It just made for a banger of a season, following up to Southern Charm, which again, yes, you had a lot of things going on with Olivia, but the rest of the cast stepped up,

and there was a lot more going on. So these shows are hating right now, and thank God for that, because otherwise we would be in shambles too. We would, and that's a really good point. Summerhouse was not Lindsay and Carl-centric, when it easily could have been. Yes, there were episodes that,

needed to be about them, but you got the newbies stepping up in West and Jesse. They had a fucking great intro to the Bravo world. You had other drama throughout the house going on. You had reprieves with a lot of great, great parties. Doomsday was, wow, when they got on the Mad Max thing at the end and there's fire going out, I was like, this is fucking sick. Summer is back. They made Summer fun again.

Bravo, no pun intended, to the Summer House group. But yeah, it's going to be really interesting to watch as Bravo tries to navigate. these waters. One, to capture, I think that's where it's tough with the housewife shows is to capture a younger audience. A lot of the Bravo mainstays that have watched this show for a while or these shows for a while are our age or older than us. They're going to have a tougher time capturing like the Gen Z audience, but they have a chance to do that with the non-housewife show. So maybe that's why, like I'm very curious as to what their route is going to be moving forward And we will get to be a party to it

Because we get to sit and talk about it So we're going to see what happens But The last thing that we need to talk about Before we jump into Summerhouse Is we have started Bravo Bros members As you guys have heard And we are 70 members away

From our 250 goal To start our rom-com podcast Our bromance episodes As we're going to call them We're going to post this week Our survey or our poll I guess Would vote? Yeah, it'll be more of a poll

and you get to just select any of the rom-coms that you want us to do. So you don't just have to go with one because, let's be honest, we put together a hell of a list. Oh, yeah. That list not only is in chronological order, starting back in the 80s, but there are, I think, 60 different movies that you can pick from going all the way from the 80s up until 2024. So just select all that apply, you know, how everybody loves to do that on test.

This is a good one to do it with. Select all the movies that you want us to do, and we will have a better idea of which direction we want to go. in and again we're going to be doing a couple of them so we'll select whatever ones get the most votes yeah yeah we're super excited about that we are announcing our monthly zoom is going to be next tuesday yep june 11th at 9 p.m eastern time 6 p.m. west coast time pacific standard i'm going to make sure people know that i know it's pacific standard out west coast time but that way everyone can get back from work pour yourself a drink whatever you're i don't know why that's

important whatever you're feeling whatever you're feeling and you will jump on a zoom with us you will get the link an hour before the zoom starts you can jump in we can talk some shows we are the way that we're going to structure it we'll talk about some bravo news that have been going on like over the past week so we have some topics to discuss it does not have to be about that if you have something else you want to talk to us about another topic you want to bring up it can be anything you have paid to be a brav bro member we want to honor that by giving you some face time we want to hear what you guys have to say this is honestly what we love the most about doing this that's why we love live shows in general.

We get to interact with you guys real time. You know, before the show, we like to talk. After the show, we always go out in the crowd and shoot the shit. We love getting feedback. We love interacting. So this is an opportunity for us to do that. So if you have not joined yet, click the link in our Instagram bio or scroll down in these show notes at the bottom.

The link is right there. You can sign up. It is $5 a month or $50 for the year, whatever you want to do. But we are so excited to get to $250 and more. and we're so excited to talk to you guys. So sign up now so you don't miss our first Zoom next Tuesday, June 11th, 9 p.m. Do it. Do it. Do it.

Do it. What was that? Do it. Do it. Do it. Johnny. Well, fuck. Johnny Reddy, do it. Do it.

But anyway, enough movie quotes. Let's jump into one of the more riveting finalees we've seen maybe since we started this podcast. And we start out with the end of the conversation of Lindsay and Carl at the Doomsday Party. and once again conversation ends poorly we've seen this throughout the season these two cannot communicate it has not gone well from the beginning of this summer and the reason I'm emphasizing that is for later in this episode but we get Danielle and Lindsay and it's kind of a repeat you know we've heard this over and over again he wants me to be someone I'm not soft and tender and blah blah blah she says you know I'm soft and tender at the appropriate times but

I'm never going to be that person, Danielle, who has been quiet for the majority of the summer. And hats off to her because she could have been strutting around all summer going, I told you so, she didn't. Instead, she's hanging out with balloon guy Joe, but at least she's not like billboarding like, I told you so, you idiots. But she points out that it's cyclical. This whole thing is cyclical. You guys keep going in circles and circles and circles with no end in sight. And look, Danielle sees it right here, and I think this is her way of saying it. You want something that he's not capable of giving you.

And I think that us watching it home, and from what I've seen in the comments, I was curious as to which side of the street people are going to fall in this one. The general consensus is that. It's like you guys both want something. The other one cannot provide you. Yeah. And it just seems like that's how. it's been this entire season, and even dating back to last year, the way that Carl talks to

Lindsey and the way that Lindsay talks to Carl, not only are they on the wrong page, it's almost like they don't even know each other. Right. And it's so weird because they do know each other so well. They just expected that once they got into this relationship and started talking about marriage and moving forward in life, that they were just going to change. Yeah. And that's just not what's going to happen.

And I don't know if it's a case of, you know, Carl or Lindsay, whoever, having this idea of the other one of them in their mind thinking, oh, wow, you know, I've loved Lindsay forever or I've loved Carl forever. It'll work. Maybe that's what it was. I just can't really tell. And they're not on the same page right now. Lindsay is of the mind of

we'll figure it out. We'll fix it. Which makes, again, no sense. You guys have been going to couples therapy since November. She said that as though it was a positive thing. I'm like, oh, God. Yeah, no, that's not good. You guys got engaged last the end of August last year. Yeah. And you went right to couples therapy a month later, which, look,

I'm not going to shade that because a lot of times you do need that to figure out how to communicate and you figure it out and move forward and then you have a good marriage. It's like they just didn't go or they were going and they just weren't listening to the therapist or not putting any of these plans into action. I don't know what the fuck they were doing, but it seems like they just never learned how to communicate and they were okay with that. Now, I do think that Lindsay was okay with that. I think that Lindsay always was in the mindset of, and look, you can call her delusional if you want to, that this was going to change. eventually. At some point, Carl's going to just catch on to who I am as a person and we're just going to go. And that's who Lindsay is. That's how Carl should view Lindsay because that's how she's always been. Carl, on the other hand, is just getting frustrated with the fact that Lindsay's

not changing for him and he's letting it out on her and it's just so tough to watch. It is. And I think that again, as you said, of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with going to couples therapy, even if it's a month into it. Like, whatever you need to do to try to make it work, fine. And I think that therapy is a great option for that. My issue is they have been going since November. And we haven't seen them, by the way, by the way, that means this isn't one of those

Bravo therapists that I always go on and on about. This was a real therapist, probably. It's genuine, and I think you can tell that they have been going because the way they communicate, they like when they're actually talking back and forth, they say therapy esque words. They're like, I... You want to use the word, don't you?

Therapapacus, you've been therapacized. They say words that are indicative of therapy. Like, I hear you. They're just therapy trigger words, though. Exactly. But that's what then they say, after they say that, like, I hear you and I accept your feelings, but, and then they say some mean shit back. So it's like they're using what they learned in therapy to, like, tee up an insult.

To be worse. Yeah, which is like, it doesn't soften the blow. It's like, no, that's like saying, no offense, but you're a dickhead. Like, it's not... Yeah, they weaponize their therapy. Yeah, pretty much. And, like, the biggest thing for me, when I hear we've been in therapy since November, okay, so you have been discussing with a professional how to communicate better and anything,

your communication has gotten worse. And I think my biggest pushback on the he knows who I am thing, yes, that's valid. Because we all have seen you over the years. This is how you've been for a long time. However, and somebody pointed this out in the comments somewhere, if you look back when she was not drinking, and I'm not saying that Lindsay needs to be sober, that is not at all what I'm saying. That is her prerogative, her choice to do with alcohol, what she wants.

Not what I'm saying. But if you look at their interactions when she was not drinking, she was more capable or more understanding of Carl's needs, I think. We're more able to give that to him. And then it gets to a point now, and I'm not blaming it on drinking. It could be the fact that, you know, he hasn't moved forward with his career in 10 months, and now she's getting frustrated. There's a lot of different aspects,

but I think that especially with this show being as polarizing as it is, and it's so easy to say I'm Team X or Team Y, team Carl, team Lindsay. I think people gloss over on both sides the fact that this has been an ongoing thing, and there's way, way, way, way more layers to it than he blindsided her on camera or she was being overly mean to him. I think if you look at everything altogether over this past year, especially, the beginning of the summer, she was horrible to him.

And you can't imagine that that has just been an isolated incident. That's probably over time. Look at the end of the summer. The way he communicates with her, not great either. So that has probably also been going on behind closed doors. And again, we talked about this last week. To try to sum up these two's relationship over six, seven, what, eight weekends that we've gotten to see them, it's impossible because there's so many more nuances and layers to it.

And for people to so matter-of-factly say, he's the problem or she's the problem, to me, that's short-sighted. It's not able to take a step back and be like, all right, well, his sobriety is a major factor in all of this. Yes, he's been sober for a little over a year at this point. In terms of sobriety, that's very, very new. So to say, like, he's still trying to figure things out is fair. On the flip side, as a partner, are you getting frustrated because his career goals aren't aligning yet? and you're sitting by watching him, you know, say things like you're not supporting my cigar dreams or my acting dreams or my sober bar.

That's got to be really frustrating. So, again, what it comes down to, they are incapable of having these conversations because they don't see eye to eye on anything and have no real ability to communicate that without triggering the other person. Yeah. And I think that for either side, Lindsay's willing to put in the quote unquote hard, work because her idea of a relationship is hard work. Yes. Carl looks at it like this is

supposed to be a fairy tale. This is supposed to be you're the girl that I'm supposed to end up with and we came back to each other. We found our way back to each other and it's just supposed to work and we're going to make it work. But he's not putting any of the work in. He's not actually doing any of the stuff

and you can see that the entire summer like yeah, of course he was being chastised in the beginning of the summer but when Lindsay started to change he was having outside factors where people were talking about the relationship and he's in his own head thinking about the relationship but he wasn't really doing anything to try to help the relationship he was trying to help

Carl okay he was trying to get to a good space where he felt comfortable not where Lindsay and him both felt comfortable so it's just a really weird dynamic that again we can emphasize this a much or as enough and not emphasize this a much a much a much we cannot emphasize

this enough these two are just not made for each other no at all oil and water I don't even think they should be friends, to be honest. Like, this is just brutal. It's, it's tough to watch. It really is tough to watch, but it landed me right. Like, this episode firmly cemented me in the middle of the road.

Yeah. I am not team either. I think that it's just a drastic, drastic mismatch and inability, not even like, oh, there's a way through this. Like, inability to communicate. You will never speak the same language. And they both can't get past that. You're almost a year into a couple's therapy. you still can't figure it out.

Your communication is getting worse. Yeah, so that's a big issue. But we get Paige Sierra and Amanda, and they're talking about West's friends being at the party and Sierra and West and where they are in their relationship, all that good stuff. And Sierra is a little intimidated by the friends, but she likes them. And, you know, she admits, like, I'm afraid to fall into anything. And two good points here. One by Amanda, you know, you can just date for fun.

It doesn't have to be that deep. Sierra counterpoint, commitment can be fun. Yeah. Like, you can have fun and be committed and moving forward in a relationship. It's not that I don't like fun, but, you know, going to see your parents. That is supposed to be fun. So I was like, fair points. Both of you fair points.

Fair points on both sides. And I actually like the fact that now because of, and look, you can say it's because of West or maybe Sierra finally just got out of her shell and she feels a little bit more comfortable. We don't really know how much, I mean, she's talked about it, but that Austin thing could have really fucked her up to the point where she didn't really want to show herself on TV. and, you know, that's her prerogative. She's okay to do that. We got to learn a lot about Sierra this summer.

Yeah, we did. So when she says something like, commitment can be fun, I agree with her. I think that's what she wants. Whereas Amanda's like, yeah, you can go ahead and date and just have some fun. I don't think she wants to date around and have fun. I think, you know, there's a difference between dating to marry and dating to just, you know, commit and have fun. I think she wants the latter. I think she wants a deeper commitment, a deeper relationship where she can see where things go.

She wants the former. She wants, no, no. He said the ladder. You can, you can. No, she doesn't, I meant that she wants the commitment. She doesn't want to just date around for fun on surface level shit, because that's not who she is. I know, it's being an asshole. No, yeah, no, that's fine.

But, no, I don't think that's who she is. And she's shown this summer that she wants something a little deeper. Yeah, she wants something real. Yeah, and West, look, if West isn't going to give her that, and he's honest with himself and he's honest with Sierra, then that's okay, too, because it was a very fun summer. And we got a lot of good moments out of it. Yeah, but he shoots himself in the foot. And before we talk about Carl and Kyle's conversation, we'll just jump to, to Sierra and West in bed at the end of the night

where they're like having pillow talk she points out it's all about your intention because he said you call me baby downstairs like don't downplay it and she's like oh like do you do you pet names and he goes yeah I call it like baby I like baby but I call everybody baby it's not that big of deal like if I said downstairs

like I love you like I'd say that to Kyle he downplays everything so now that's a better glimpse into why she's a little on the fence I think I don't think he's afraid of commitment though I think he doesn't know what the fuck wants to do. I think it's both. Yeah, it could be both, honestly. He's just, everything he does, it's like he screams to us that he wants to be Sierra's boyfriend. He wants to date her seriously.

And then he says a million different things that look completely different. Yeah. So I don't know what the fuck he wants. I don't think he knows what the hell he wants. Why should Sierra know what he wants? Exactly. So Sierra, yeah, you can't sit around and wait for West to figure out what the hell he wants, especially a week ago when they were doing the horseback riding. And he said, yeah, I just need to get some time to like get my shit together but then doesn't elaborate on what that shit is and let's go to my parents on a trip together yeah but it's not a big deal it's like well it kind of is yeah he has no clue what he wants and i think he wants to be with sierra for now but he's just enjoying his time perhaps which is not what sierra wants to do he's the new kid on the block yeah everyone

loves he got a new york times article about him oh yeah yeah did you see the clip for the reunion next week? I did. Yeah. It's like, you know, there's a lot of women in brother.

Like, oh, no. You're fucking idiot. Dumbass. Don't say that. We love West here, but like, have a little tact, my guy.

God damn. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex.

Presale tickets for future events subject to availability and vary by race. Turns and conditions apply. Learn more at mx. The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox is an eight-episode Hulu original limited series that blends gripping pacing with emotional complexity, offering a dramatized look as it revisits the wrongful conviction of Amanda Knox for the tragic murder of Meredith Kircher and the relentless media storm that followed. The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox is now streaming only on Disney Plus. during the Volvo Fall Experience event discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design

that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures and see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute this September lease a 2026 XC90 plug-in hybrid from $599 biweekly at 3.99% during the Volvo Fall Experience event Conditions apply visit your local Volvo retailer or go to Explorevolvo.com.

Wait, I didn't get charged for my donut. It was free with this Tim's rewards points. I think I just stole it. I'm a donut stealer. Earn points so fast, it'll seem too good to be true. Plus, join Tim's rewards today and get enough points for a free donut, drink, or timbits. With 800 points after registration, activation,

and first purchase of a dollar or more, see the Tim's app for details at participating in restaurants in Canada for a limited time. But that brings us back to the Carl and Kyle conversation. And once again, a lot of reiterating the same things. I don't need the questioning. And I don't think, this I actually appreciate it. I'm saying, I don't think she's understanding the difficulty of sobriety.

And I think that for me watching this, and I don't love to get on my sobriety soapbox, believe it or not, like it's not a fun thing to preach about. But I do think it has been belittled this season on how difficult it actually is, especially in your first year of sobriety, especially if you are going through it in your sobriety. So I think that that's a bigger factor than people give credit to. They almost like chalk it up as like, oh, he's like a cop out almost.

And it's not. And like I do think that's a major factor, especially if shit's hitting the fan constantly. And for us in recovery, your go-to is, oh, I'm going to do drugs or crawl into the bottle. When you don't have that crutch, you have to deal with your emotions differently. and they're much, much, much more real

and much harder to process. Yeah. So I think that's a real thing, and I'm glad that he brought that up again. But I think that anybody who watched this show for the last six, seven years, could tell you immediately, Lindsay is not the person

that's going to help you with your feelings. No, but I don't care. We've seen her in so many relationships. She just doesn't do that, and she never has. So for Carl to expect her to ever do that is insane. Yeah, I mean, it's fair. And look, I do appreciate the fact that he did say that, and I do think that that is true.

I just think that the ways that he's been operating in the last couple of weeks watching all of this, it does tell me that he's just trying to find a way out. That's the problem, right? He's just trying to find a way out. And look, there's no easy way to go about that. But I can tell you right now, the ways that you've been doing it are definitely not the way to do it.

That's where he falls short. Yeah. That's where I think everybody can agree, you know, especially for those of us who are riding the middle here, that's his fault, right? That's his flaw. Where he fucked this summer up was how he handled things. Not the fact that he called it off.

Not the fact that he was having these feelings throughout the summer. It's the fact that you've been discussing this with other people for a while. And then you go and say things to her like, we'll figure it out. We're going to work through it when your sentiment with the side convo's not that. It's more so pointing to this isn't looking great. That's where he fucked up. Agreed. Now, on Lindsay's side of things, go back to the beginning of the summer,

things that she said. Like I said, there's no shot in hell that was an isolated incident. And we're going to, I'll save the rest for later. I know we're jumping out a little bit. Well, can I, can I say something that's, it's a little shitty? Ooh. But it's a little shady. You get a little, like as a viewer.

I'm getting a little shady. Shady shoots that. The idea of them going this whole side, and this season has been incredible. And it's not incredible, and we talked about this before, It's not incredible because we knew that they broke up. We were just waiting for it and waiting for it and waiting for it. There's so many other things. If they didn't break up and they went through with the wedding and then we got like a divorce next summer or the summer after, that would make for some insane TV.

Bravo has warped our minds. It really has. But it would hit so hard. It would be insane to watch. Oh, God, dude. It robbed us of a great time. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.

Well, we're going to get to watch that between Jesse. and Michelle on the Valley, so we'll see what that feels like to watch an actor. Are we though? They didn't get a reunion. So who the fuck knows what's going on over there? So we got somebody reached out in the DMs and said that they didn't get a reunion. And it's somebody that's fairly credible to. They didn't get a reunion because there was a money issue where they could not decide

on a full reunion in a studio or a watch what happens live reunion. And then money and monetary value got involved and they couldn't come to an agreement. and that's where it fell apart. Who's the agreement between, though? Probably the cast and the production company and Bravo, I would imagine. Who's getting paid for what and how much would it cost? Look, don't shoot the messenger. I mean, it makes sense.

I've never really thought about any financial concerns when it comes to reunions. I just assumed that's how it worked. Bravo just said, hey, reunion, we're good. Right. Well, Bravo pays these production companies because they're different production companies for different shows. and they also have to pay the talent. So that's what I was told was where it fell apart. Okay.

So I don't know, but, you know, a little valley tidbit right there. Who knows? But anyway, we get to the next day, and Lindsay and Carl are talking, and, you know, she said, look, I don't think this is forever, you know, and this is the second time that she's mentioned ebbs and flows. She keeps saying ebbs and flows, and, look, I think that a big flaw of hers is like you said, the inability to potentially see that this may not work out. Yeah. Where she is dead set.

We're going to figure this out no matter what. That's what marriage is. You put it perfectly where her mindset of what a marriage or a relationship is supposed to be is a fucking grind. Yeah. You put your nose to the grindstone and you figure it out no matter how shitty it's getting. And on the flip side, you got Carl, who is being extremely sensitive and once that reciprocated, who's like, no, it's not supposed to be a fucking trudge. we're supposed to get along he's on the fairy tale side of things there's a middle ground there where it's like things the majority of the time should be pretty great yep there's going to be some

difficult times when people say marriages work it's not supposed to always be work no it's not supposed to always be work and i think that he's of the mindset where he looks at it like all girlfriends as soon as you get into a relationship all girlfriends regardless of who you are as a person you're supposed to be there for me emotionally whenever I need you. Carl. Carl's thinking that. And he expected to get into this relationship with Lindsay and then go down the road

and get married together and she was always going to be that because that's what a girlfriend does. But that's not what Lindsay does. And I think that's what he was expecting. It's also not what a real partner does. A real partner will question you at appropriate times and say, hey, are you sure about this? Have you thought about that? That's what

a partnership and a marriage is. Now, is there a middle ground where it's like, all right, every time we have this conversation, there's never any support. That's kind of fucking annoying. Sure. Did that happen? Potentially.

Potentially. Like, I don't know. And that's where you need to see more. It's so hard to say. That's, like, that's Lindsay, though. And we could tell you that. That is her supporting you by knocking down those stupid fucking business ideas. Well, I mean, that's the toughest part.

Fuck off. Getting a cigar bar or getting a sober sports bar isn't going to bring in any money. It's stupid. That's Lindsay being supportive. unfortunately for Carl. Right, but that's where I'm curious if the fact that when she wasn't drinking, again, I'm not blaming the booze.

Let's make that very clear. But was she a little bit more sympathetic early on when she was sober with him and maybe it was the honeymoon stage so things were softer then because they're still like, I love you, babe, I love you too, babe. I just think that she wouldn't get as mean as she does. Maybe that's what it is.

Because she's either drunk in the moment or hungover in the moment or whatever it is. She wouldn't have as such a short fuse, she'd be able to listen. But I think it's still Lindsay, so she would still do all these things. I do too. And I think, again, like, we're going to keep repeating things because they just continue to ring true. But it's like, they both went into this with the idea of he's going to change, she's going to change. And I think that, yeah, in a healthy relationship, you compromise in certain areas.

You do try to make yourself better for the other person. If you're not holding up your end of something or if you're quick to anger or if any of those things aren't aligning with your relationship, you do your best to adjust and change to benefit the relationship. If you're asking people to change who they are inherently, that's different. That's much harder. That's impossible to do because if you do successfully change that person, it's going to lead to resentment because now they're not who they are. So that's where it's like this whole thing is, I mean, look, it's fucked from the beginning. Let's be real. but we're in the kitchen again with Lindsay and Carl and they're they're trying to share

Carl's trying to share like how how he's feeling and the fact that after yesterday he just couldn't snap out of anything and she's like what you want in a career conversation what you want from me the the pat on the back the support good for you buddy like I keep going is not what I do it's not what I'm capable of doing it's not what I've ever done so we just talked about and you can tell in this moment this is where I start to lean away from the oh she was blindsided thing because his verbiage like what he's using when he's talking he's like I don't want the questioning I want support I didn't sign up for this when we got engaged and she's like that was fucking mean and yeah it was like he took a shot but like you're seeing cracks like that's

a big thing to say when you have two months left to your wedding I didn't sign up for this when we got engaged. That to me, I'm like, ooh-uh, that to me is going to raise a red flag immediately and go. And she does say, like, oh, so you don't want to get married. And he goes, no, no. And I think nitpicking on responses. No, yeah, no, that's not what you want them to say right then and there. No, I don't want to get married now. You know what I mean? Like, you can't do that. So I don't think that that's the time to be like, no, done. But this is tough again, because she's like, I'm trying to understand your needs. For all intents and purpose, is he's telling you what he needs.

Are you capable of doing that? That's a different story. And should you have to do that? But I think she's saying, I'm not capable of doing that. That's not who I am. And it's still Carl sitting there like, this should be who you are, though. And it's not.

It's not. But that's where it's like you don't work. You too do not work. There's a lid for every pot. My mother-in-law says that. It's a great saying. There's a lid for every pot. These are not your lids.

No. Or your pots. You're both pots. You're both pots. And you need. to find a lid and these are not your lids so like but yeah with the blindsided thing again i think this is just lindsay's psyche where she expects them to get through this and she keeps saying ebbs and flows rough patches roller coasters whatever you want to say this is what lindsay expects she

just looks at it like look we're getting married in two and a half months of course there's going to be doubts in here of course there's going to be some cold feet or some unsure issues that we're not really going to be able to figure out right now, but we will, and we have the rest of our lives to do this. But how do you maintain that when the next thing he says is, one, he stole my line, we're two ships passing in the night, and he says, I'm overly concerned that we can't resolve our conflicts. Before we get married, we need to be able to resolve conflict, and I'm definitely having second

thoughts. You know what? Yeah, I think I actually know. And Carl said this, so I feel comfortable saying this. she does call people names I think Lindsay thought that Carl was too much of a pussy to actually break it off I'm not even joking

I really think that she thought that she had him scared and he was too much of a pussy to break it off that's interesting I think there's something there because even at the reunion she can't even like wrap her head around the idea of breaking them and look she does love Carl and she has a lot of love for Carl

I think they love each other they do love they're just not meant for each other and that's fine they're two very different people but I do think that if that thought ever crossed her mind, it's immediately knocked down because she looks and goes, he's too much of a person. He's not going to leave me. No, there's no chance.

I think that's something there. I do think there's something there. But after he says that, she's like, that's a bigger conversation. It's like, well, you should probably have it because you guys are getting married in two months. And again, I think that she's under the guise of, we're going to get married and we'll figure this out later. Huge public service announcement.

And this is what you see in like horrible relationships. And I think everybody, especially as you get older, you see these people. It's like they're having a horrible relationship. They get engaged. That'll fix it. They get married. That'll fix it. It doesn't.

They have a kid. That'll fix it. They buy a house. You make grand gestures and major life moves in hopes that that will even the playing field. It never works. That's what's happening here. Yeah. And nobody's ever going to be perfect and you're going to figure out the small issues.

Sure. You know, you want to live in the suburbs? You want to live in the city. We'll figure that out. Will they? Ask Kyle. Will they? I don't fucking know. As life goes on, you'll figure it out at some point. That's okay. Kyle or, now I've got Kyle and Amanda on the brain. Carl and Lindsay have fundamental issues.

They are two very, very different people that want very different things from each other and a partner. They need to figure that out before they get married. Yes. That's the thing. It's not little things. This is a very core issue that they're talking about, we'll figure it out later. I, I, it's, no, no. You got two months. Yeah.

And you've been in therapy since November. Yeah. Something's wrong. And that's where the blind side again gets tough for me, but let's keep going forward. And it ends with a very, and Carl got fucking dragged for this hug scene. And I mean, yeah, it was cringy as fuck. It's like, give me a hug. Give me a hug.

Harder. Harder. You used to love what I used to love these hugs. Come on. It just, dude. Yeah. I know. And that's where I really get annoyed to, because we know.

know, and we've known for weeks now, that he's just trying to find an escape plan here. It seems to be that way, yes. You bring Kyle into the conversation and you tell them all of these things, and you're not saying anything nice about Lindsay. You're just talking about how rough it is and how you don't know what to do. And then you do the hug thing afterwards, and then you try to make her feel bad. Yeah. Like, you just had a really tough conversation where the idea of not getting married was just

brought up very casually. And you're like, give me a hug. Oh, you used to love when I used to give you these hugs. He's like, it's not, I, you know, they're not supposed to be together, but it's not really Lindsay's fault right now. She's asking a ton of questions, just trying to figure out where you are and telling you, I can't do that. And you're like, all right, you used to love when I hugged you. It's like, ah, dude, come on. Agreed, agreed.

There. Yeah. But again, that's minimizing the problems to a two-week period in which that is not where the problems in your future nuptials lie. They lie in the 10 months prior. They lie in the you're a different person. Yeah, pretty much. But like, there's so much more time involved in this. And she keeps emphasizing two weeks and she does it later as well.

It's like, no. And not on your end, only on both ends. This is a collective problem over a long period of time. And everybody else not only notices that, but says that. We'll get to that in a little bit. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days, delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by Almost?

Well, you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered, but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered. A cabana? That's a no. But a banana? That's a yes. A nice tan? Sorry, nope. But a box fan?

Happily, yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now.

Alcohol and select markets. Product availability may vary by Regency app for details. They got Willa. They got my daughter. I need to find her. From acclaimed director Paul Thomas Anderson You can save that girl On September 26th

Experience what is being called The Best Movie of the Year This is at the end of the line Not for you Leonardo DiCaprio Sean Pan Benicio del Toro Tiana Taylor Chase Infinity

Let's go Here I come One battle after another Only in theater September 26th Experience it in IMAX You came back Ontario The Weight is over

The gold standard of online casinos has arrived. Golden Nugget Online Casino is live, bringing Vegas-style excitement and a world-class gaming experience right to your fingertips. Whether you're a seasoned player or just starting, signing up is fast and simple. And in just a few clicks, you can have access to our exclusive library

of the best slots and top-tier table games. Make the most of your downtime with unbeatable promotions and jackpots that can turn any mundane moment into a golden opportunity. at Golden Nugget Online Casino. Take a spin on the slots, challenge yourself at the tables, or join a live dealer game

to feel the thrill of real-time action, all from the comfort of your own devices. Why settle for less when you can go for the gold at Golden Nugget Online Casino. Gambling problem call Connects Ontario, 1866531-260. 19 and over, physically present in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply.

See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. Oh, hi, buddy. Who's the best? You are. I wish I could spend all day with you instead. Uh, Dave, you're off mute. Hey, happens to the best of us.

Enjoy some goldfish cheddar crackers. Goldfish have short memories. Be like goldfish. We got a quick, I don't want to leave him out. We got a quick check in with Jesse. And Paige is like, oh, how was your summer? How was your first experience? top notch and you know after my cancer dying or my news of being cancer free came through

I feel unstoppable and I'm I'm I'm just stoked for that dude and especially because I think where West is going to run into some speed bumps especially after the reunion he'll be okay he'll get through it but I think he's in for a side of bravo he hasn't really experienced yet it's coming a little bit yeah I think it's going to be just a taste it's not going to be a roasting no but he's going to get a taste of the other side of things whereas jessey who came in a little hot, at least maintained, I'm here for a good time, if the right woman comes along, great, but I'm not even looking for a girlfriend. I'm doing my thing.

At least he's up front. So he is, I didn't see it coming. I think he wins between the summer. Yeah, between the two, yeah, between the two newcomers, he absolutely. I do. I think so. But there's a whole discussion. They're all going to Montauk to see Arizona live, which sounds pretty fucking sick.

Honestly. Yeah, it sounds like a good time. Lindsay and Carl are unsure what they want to do, obviously, because of everything going on, and they end up agreeing to go. Before they go, Lindsay has a conversation with Danielle, and she's like, you know, I just got my ass handed to me by Carl. Honest feedback here for me. Did she get her ass handed to her by Carl in that scene?

That's what I mean. So when she's relaying stories, and this goes into the after show, this is not just me saying this. And I think the after show, a lot of times when people bring up, the after show. I'm like, yeah, it's just kind of opinions on it, but they don't always land as hard. This after show is important. Yep. Because of Page and Sierra's stances on it, kind of shifting from what we saw during the season. They both have relayed experiences with Lindsay where they are present for what happens and then for the retelling of it. And the retelling of it is different than what actually happened. Well, this was a huge part for me because it came

back to the them not having sex thing. Yeah, yeah. And again, if we look at this whole thing, which is, again, a huge issue in the relationship, and we've agreed if things aren't going well, why would you expect to have sex? But the way that Lindsay phrased it to begin with, when she starts talking about it, it was brought up casually, and she didn't seem that broken up about it. I was like, yeah, this is just how our relationship goes. We'll figure it out.

That's how she is with a lot of other things in the relationship. But as the weeks kept going on and they're still not having sex and Carl's sleeping, in a different room we hear. Now all of a sudden it's a, well, yeah, you expect me to be intimate with you when things aren't going well? She says, maybe don't insult me or yell at me and I'll want to fuck you. Yeah. Like, no, that is, I think, how she truly feels. Yeah, that came out. And I think that she, look, maybe she was delusional in the beginning and she didn't do that. I'm starting to look back at that first conversation that she had with Amanda and Paige. It's a bit of a play. It's a bit of a cry for help, if you will. Like, hey, you know, we're not having sex, but it's not that

big of a deal we'll figure it out in reality it's to get the rest of the castmates talking about it to make car a little uncomfortable so that then they have that conversation but they never had the conversation they're what are they talking about in these therapy sessions i don't know the fuck is going on in there's my point are they even going let's do this and i'm not therapy shaming are they actually still going but i i'm under the impression that yes they went to therapy frequently i don't I think that that, like you said, we're getting real therapy. Yeah. It's not working, but at least it's not a Bravo therapy session where it's some asshole that's a quote-unquote life coach.

And sorry if you're a life coach, you're probably great at your job. You're not in this. You're not a Bravo life coach. It's different. But because they're not forthcoming about it and because we don't get cameras in there, like, yeah, I do believe they're in therapy. I just don't believe it's working at all. But when she says that, maybe don't insult me and yell at me and I'll want to fuck you. That's where I'm like.

well what about when you yell and insult him though because you do that too i'm not saying one's better than the other i'm saying that this again the recency bias because the last four to six weeks lindsay has to her credit like maintained a calm cool composure she's been very pointed in conversations we've been team lindsay as far as their communication has gone when she's questioning the careers because she's just asking very valid questions yeah it's something that she wants to know, especially given Carl's going back to Loverboy potentially. She was his soundboard for the falling out of Loverboy, and you know that Carl was dragging Kyle and Loverboy all the time during those.

He had to be like, fuck this company, fuck Kyle, blah, blah, blah. She was sitting there listening to that, trying to be supportive. So now when he's thinking of going back, of course she's going to have a lot of questions, and you owe her a good explanation as to why you're doing it. So that is not up for debate at all. But if you flashback, again, beginning of the season, insults and yelling from Lindsay to Carl. So for her to say that as though he's the only one doing that is just simply untrue. And we've seen that.

So I don't think that to use it there, like maybe if you don't insult me, I'm going to fuck you. Like, yeah, well, if you don't insult him, maybe you're both just being mean to each other. Have we thought about that? Has that been, is that an option? Probably. Yeah. And we know just based off of one thing that I cannot get out of my mind. sexual chemistry isn't even there.

No, no. Babe, your butt looks great. I want to have sex with it. Oh, God, why? Do you have to bring it up all the time? It's on my mind all the time. I think about that four times a week. I cannot get it out of my head, so I do have to bring it back, not just for you, but for

everybody listening right now. It's just a tough. That's a really tough line. I don't like that line. No. It makes me upset. Yeah. But she says she doesn't want to go to Montauk.

She doesn't want to be near Carl, but her and Carl talk in the kitchen. Let's go. and have fun and enjoy ourselves. I would like to ride without Carl. And now she keeps emphasizing to the whole group. Who wants to ride with Carl? Anybody run to ride with Carl? I'm like, I didn't like that she just did that in front of everybody.

Neither. Like, don't make it a big thing. Now everybody's going to talk about it on the, I don't know how long of a ride Montau is. We talk about this all the time. But everybody in their individual cars is going to be like, what the fuck was that about? I know.

We know that they're on the fence right now. We know things are going bad. but to run out into the middle of everybody packing up their cars and say, I'm not going to ride with Carl. I want to ride with you, Danielle. And that was supposed to be the last scene of the season. Yeah. So what you do is you pull Carl aside and say, hey, I'm going to ride with Danielle.

I don't want to continue this fight. Let's just talk about it later. We obviously are going to drive back from Mon Talk together, but right now I just need to clear my head. I don't know if Carl's going to be receptive of that in the moment. No, he'll probably leave your luggage. He'll probably leave your luggage and then go on his own. But at the end of the day, that's a way.

way better way to do it than just to announce to the group that you're going to do that. Like, tough. And I thought that she, I think she kind of reeled it back in when she starts talking to Jesse. She's like, who wants to ride with Carl? You guys want to ride with Carl? Okay, good. Now you've got a friend to go with. That's like Lindsay being nice in a

Lindsay way. But no, that's not the way to go about it at all. No. Everybody's like, what the fuck? And look, we've been a lot of not shade throwing at Lindsay, but pointing out her flaws here. let's not forget the fact that as they're going through all of these conversations in the house, Carl clearly knows what he wants to do.

And look, if he's still trying to figure it out earlier on in the summer, if we're in week one or two and we have the conversations going on there where there's still four months out, whatever, from the wedding, and those conversations are happening, okay, fine. Yeah. But he, his reactions during conversations with Kyle in the house, during conversations with Amanda, during conversations with other people. people seem so much more specific as to where his headspace is. And meanwhile, he's going back to Lindsay and saying, no, we're cool, figure it out. That's fucked. We agree with that. So I don't want to go like this whole episode and say like, oh, she messed up here.

She messed up there. He's at fault, too. This is literally, I can't emphasize it enough. Like, we're trying to stay down the middle here because we've said it how many times, a hundred. Someone keep a ticker of how many times you've said, these two were never meant to be together. Yeah.

That's the basis of. this, all right? I'm not pointing the finger and saying you're the villain or you're the villain. I'm saying they're villains to each other because they don't vibe. Yep. Anyway. American history is full of infamous tales that continue to captivate audiences, decades, or even hundreds of years after they happened. On the infamous America podcast, you'll hear the true stories of the Salem Witch Trials and the escape attempts from Alcatraz, of bank robbers like John Dillinger and Pretty Boy Floyd, of killers like Lizzie Borden, and Charles Starkweather, of mysteries like the Black Dahlia and D.B. Cooper,

and of events that inspired movies like Goodfellas, killers of the flower moon, Zodiac, Eight Men Out, and many more. I'm Chris Wimmer. Join me as we crisscrossed the country from the Miami Drug Wars and Dixie Mafia in the South, to mobsters in Chicago and New York, to arsonists, kidnappers, and killers in California, to unsolved mysteries in the heartland and in remote corners of Alaska. Every episode features narrative writing and cinematic music, and there are hundreds of episodes available to binge.

Find Infamous America, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times. And I'm Paul Shear, an actor, writer, and director. You might know me from The League, Veep, or my non-eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters. We love movies, and we come at them from different perspectives. Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was, miscast in Goodfellas, and I

don't. He's too old. Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dude 2 is overrated. It is. Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits. Fan favorites, musts season, and case you missed them. We're talking Parasite

the Home Alone. From Greece to the Dark Night. We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look. And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of like Ganges and Hess. So if you love movies like we do come along on our cinematic adventure listen to unspooled wherever you get your podcast and don't forget to hit the follow button