Brown Girls Do It Too - A Funeral for Dating Apps

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

Are dating apps dead? Poppy and Rubina invite author of 'The Situationship', Taylor-Dior Rumble, and content creator, Chiara Perera, to their funeral for dating apps and ask: is there any chance of survival? They also ask: what would happen if the government decided to ban all dating apps? Would going out 'in the wild' help? And where did it all go wrong?Have a message for Poppy and Rubina? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail] you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. They say that death and taxes are the only things certain in life. But that's not really true. It is an absolute certainty that this podcast will contain swearing. And adult content. Death, taxes, swearing and smut. You're welcome. I'm Poppy. And I'm Robina.

This is a podcast about sex. At least it started off like that. Now we talk about everything. Everything is sex. And sex is everything. And that includes our mistakes and our heartbreaks. And our hot, hot takes. And our tummy aches.

And some lakes. Maybe we can bake. and eat some cake and fake with a rake in a shake with a shake oh i fucked it drink a milkshake with a shake i was gonna go fake and like going with an orgasm but it needed to end it it's not right it's not right anyway stop all the clocks cut off the telephone we gather here today in grief and regret we matched

we dated but in the end it was one swipe too far and now we shall remain haunted by those who ghosted us

I actually never ghosted anyone. They ghosted me. Shh, it's a funeral. Yes. Yes, sorry. Back to the eulogy. It's time to commemorate the end of an era. Good night, Abdul Tindar.

Goodbye, Alan Bumble. We may never meet again, Jay Hinge, but Ali Rhea, you can call me anytime. Dating apps, may you rest in eternal peace. Amen. They've been murdered. Dating apps have been murdered. We're joined today by Taylor Dior Rumble, author of The Situationship, and digital creator, fashion girlie, Kiara Pereira. Welcome.

Welcome to Brown Girls Do It Too. Welcome to our beautiful... It does look like a brothel, doesn't it, with this flammable curtain behind us. I mean, I love it. Yeah, I really... It's got this Bollywood vibe, doesn't it? Very festive. It's festive, it's too much, I love it.

Anyway, dating apps. How do we feel about dating apps? I've got a few bones to pick with. Tinge, Raya. Tinge. Tinge. Oh, that's a new one. I did Tinder and Hinge and I just did a portmanteau of Tinge.

It's a minefield now, isn't it? I think they're broken. I think, in my mind, I think there's a little bit of conspiracy. Maybe this is wrong. That I think the apps are treating themselves like games. Because if they put us in front of the people that they can see that we like or don't like, they're clever enough to figure this out. If TikTok can find out that I like to watch cats doing dances,

the dating apps can definitely realize that I don't want Stephen, who doesn't like dogs and all those sort of things. They can wean these people out of my way. So I think they want you to be on it and then spend money on it and stay on it. So I feel like it's like... So like doom swiping all the time. Yeah, and it feels like then you,

and then you go on these dates and you, when you talk to guys as well, I think it's not fair to say that the men are trash, but most of the time they are. But that, you know, on the other end, even if there is a great guy, you're just going to

just look past them because you've said hello to seven men. They've asked you what your hobbies are and you're like, I really don't know. It's exhausting.

So this one here, I mean, you should tell them. You're like the last bastion of finding someone. Well, I mean, this was eight years ago, but I met my partner on Tinder. Yeah, I know.

These days, though, these days, you're not going to find the man-dom, or the woman-dom, you're not going to be like, this is my partner on tinder yeah i know these days though these days you're not gonna find the man dem or the women dem on you're not gonna be like this is my partner actually to be honest i've seen the ads for tinder now and i'm like wow things have changed like who's on tinder they're like they're like dating apps are desperately advertising at the moment i see them everywhere so it's like what's going on what do you what's your theory on what's happened to dating apps i've for me personally i'm like get someone else to do it like i'm completely signed out i was just um telling you earlier that like I texted my friend like literally two days ago

saying that I reactivated hinge and deactivated it within like 10 hours I was like I'm I'm so I'm so tired I feel like everyone is just they're out of boredom it feels like most people are on they're out of boredom and just having a conversation for the sake of conversating and not actually seeking genuine connection, which like I naively still think can still happen via an app. So I'm guilty. Guilty of? Everything you've just said. Yeah. I collect matches.

It's a dopamine light. We talked about this on I collect. I'm not going to see these people again. But what is happening right now in the dating app? are so meaningless yeah oh i liked her the number of placeholder messages i send to people and i have no interest in talking to them and they have no interest in meeting me you could be a 10 10 you could be a 12 10 you could your chat could be fucking fire and like no one cares and that's why it's exhausting and then when you're a woman i don't do this now but i just started dating about a year ago i've got a lingerie waxing all the pre-game money shit right then you go out and then now i'm trying to do this thing it's like drink for drink

i want to match so we get two drinks four drinks six drinks before we bang or not bang i don't want to leave on an uneven number because that means someone's out of pocket right it's not gonna be me put it that way so it all costs money then my dates they turn into sessions as in i go out drink drink drink so the next day stay up all night the next day i'm getting two deliveries it's expensive yeah but more importantly it's it's that the admin involved is too much i mean the admin i don't think they appreciate firstly women don't when it comes to women, for sure. I don't think men realize that we've thought about it. I put on a bra.

Yes. Matching. Matching. I mean, if they're lucky. It depends. It depends on the day. But it's, even the conversations you're having, they're just, they're not, there are no conversations that you can actually learn anything about.

Right. And I always just say, look, let's have a phone call because I almost feel like you can learn something about someone that quickly. Even me and you just meeting downstairs. We met in person. We could see that we vibed and whatever. Right. I thought you two knew each other. Now we're friends.

I didn't know that. Exactly. But I think you can bond with someone much quicker. And I don't know why but all these men are terrified to make a phone call and all of them apparently have

no one makes phone calls anymore do you know what I do think I do think some people are bad on the phone I'm going to protect I think some people are like not comfortable with the phone the thing with the phone

is right I can't see your mouth moving I can't see if you're about to talk FaceTime oh that's so intimate though would you FaceTime a first interesting I'd put some makeup on

and wear a bra so a guy FaceTimed me the guy facetimed me but i look like a dog i look like a fabulous i can see it i look like a rottweiler i think i was like in my bathrobe like you know like you know what we're doing actually at home a sausage dog I don't know I wanted to be a Dalmatian that's what I think in my head

but like okay fine I would look like a sausage dog and it's like whoa but they do this thing now it's like sometimes a guy will ask for more photos and I'm like no no

so you guys don't do this no apparently I asked my mate this and she said it's okay for him to ask you can ask too and I was like well what if's okay for him to ask. You can ask too. And I was like, well, what if I don't need to ask?

I was like, all right. I don't want pictures. So the pictures, I'm just like, I feel there's a level of like, I'm not careful. Aren't you like, Google me, bitch? Well, no, I don't want to Google me.

Oh, period. That is a good answer. No, no, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. Having this podcast cock blocks me all the time. They're going to be like,

oh my God, she's going to be talking about me. So when I, also I'm not, it depends on your relationship goals, right? I, or your dating,

I'm not looking for a relationship. I just want to fuck. So I definitely don't. And I, whenever I meet a guy, I never talk about my real life. Yeah. I mean,

it's like pretend world and I'm a character and this is fun and I'm never going to see you again. Yeah. Probably. So it's different when you're like, probably dating or looking for love.

But then the photo thing irks me because I'm like, no, they're all bitch. Those photos are real. And then then the photo thing irks me because I'm like, no, they're all bitch. Those photos are real. And then the FaceTime thing irks me. I'm like, oh, this guy wanted to FaceTime me before he'd go out on a date with me to make sure that I was like who you were, who I was. But then I would argue on these dating apps, controversial or maybe not,

I would ban photos and each prompt or each thing would be a video. Because you think about like all the insta stories how you are with someone like okay like the little isms that you do or like you get a sense of someone's personality not just them on a yacht or like bowling or with their lads it's like i'd make them more 3d and there aren't it's all still photos yeah just dating apps should do i know there is something called thursday i might be wrong. But I feel like a lot more dating apps should basically host events for people that want, depending on what you want, right? I think like how there were matchmakers.

I don't think that there isn't a place for that. I think people should be interviewed to ask what they want. My mate said Thursday. So I was going to go, but my mate said she's gone to quite a few of these Thursday apps. Thursday events. It's like a hell of a word? It's like a meat market. I mean, God knows. It's a meat market full of ugly men.

Her words, not mine. And she said the ratio, and she's straight, very straight. She said the ratio of hot buff girls to butters men is like four to like one. Oh, so it's just like on every other app. So basically that's every day, right? Do you guys know that Facebook group that's called are we dating the same guy

oh my god yes I love it it's so good it's so good it's so good but so bad it's so bad it's also like

I don't know how it works with defamation law though because some of them are just rinsing these guys for doing nothing I've been in it for like three years but I feel like

some of it has just gotten really nasty so it's like this guy just ghosted me no one should be with him it's like well i don't love the idea of ghosting i would i try to have a conversation to be like i'm really sorry like i don't think we align or whatever but if i really don't care and i'm like oh you were trash it was one man i happily ghosted and i was like please respect the dead and let me be. Because he, I mean, I've never, I've been on so many dates now that I'm just over it.

How many dates have you been on? One too many dates. I don't even know. I haven't counted. Like a hundred? No, a hundred. Fifty? Oh, good God, no.

I mean, I don't like people that much. I'm going to say about, I did 25 and I went on multiple dates with certain people. Yeah. Right. And then I think first dates is where you can learn something quite quickly. But also at the same time, I think everyone's so nervous on a first date because no one really knows anyone you're just their best behavior hence why I always say a phone call because you're in your environment you can be as free as you want you can you're comfortable even if it's not a FaceTime even if it is just a chat on the phone yeah you know this person's real because

like on dating apps, all of us are picking the same like beautiful pictures of ourselves and what we think is beautiful. People, the kids know what to do with the face tune. It's really interesting

you say that. I wouldn't want a phone call. I just want to meet them. I would want to. I have this whole thing of like stranger danger. It goes against everything that our parents taught us, right?

You're going to go meet this strange man in a dark bar where there's alcohol and I'm going to die. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But I mean, everything that our parents taught us right you're gonna go meet this strange man in a dark bar where there's alcohol and i'm gonna die yeah yeah oh yeah but i mean that's also kind of part of the fun risk of internet dating because it's so high risk my anxiety can't take it but you are also like i might die he might murder me and and i'm sorry but you're lying if you don't think part of dating is the adrenaline trip of thinking you might die i like the adrenaline that's a lot me thinking that you know you think that you could be the one you could be the one

not thinking oh i've met ted bundy also i mean look what is your so you prefer a phone call what about you what kind of pre pre criteria pre-check game before the date what would you prefer in an ideal world a bit of talking. Yeah. Like DM talking on the app that you moved into WhatsApp. Yeah, exactly. A bit of texting. I don't mind a phone call. Do you know what?

At this point, just anything new, anything different, I'm just like, okay, cool, we'll go with it. But yeah, a bit of texting just to see like if we've got similar kind of banter.

Banter's like prairie for me. Yeah, yeah, banter's prairie for me. What do we do? So someone that makes you laugh, someone that you both think of for fun and stuff. Someone we can like, we can bounce off each other.

Bounce off each other metaphorically and then physically. Love it, love it. And then yeah, I'd probably want to, I'd probably meet up with them before a phone call.

I feel like phone calls and FaceTimes are very intimate but I don't know if this is because I'm the most prudish out of my friends. I just,

like in my personal priority list, if I'd hardly know you why am i going to talk on the phone with you it's interesting listening to both of your like pre-selection criteria it's interesting because i think that when you're constantly texting someone right like i even in relationships i don't want to be sitting texting all day because i'm like, this is exhausting admin, right? I don't care what sound we do. Some people love that sound. I know some people do. Some people love it. Everyone's language is very different. An ex would love to send me pictures from everywhere.

And I was like, I don't care. A very good friend of mine would communicate with her, now ex-partner. And every day they were just sending each other emojis, like loads of emojis in a row, like ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Her ex? La la la la la la. Like, no, no, no, when they were together. Oh, right. Not together anymore. But it would just be like constant

like she'd be talking to me and they'd be coming in I could hear them coming in these whatsapps well some people people's love languages are different right or dating languages

are different it's almost like you're I think this is just me maybe my therapist might agree with this but it's a case of you're

forming a false sense of intimacy and like a relationship when you're texting someone constantly till you meet them so even if it's's like, good morning, how are you? How's your day going? Even if it's not all day kind of texting, you're creating this false relationship before you've even started. Hence why I say it like I always say to them, OK, if we're going to meet for a drink, we'll meet for a drink and kind of go from there, not because of anything else. Like

I love to text as much as the next person. Love to a meme love to send a picture of my dog but no one wants to see her but that's fine but it's a thing of I want us to start on a base that we get to know each other properly because on text as well you might be reading something thinking oh my god Brian has said something awful to me when in reality he was just taking the piss yeah the tone is the tone my pre-dating game is this two days before the date i'm gonna i'm gonna bang out the voice notes and the chats and the like increase it in frequency not every fucking 10 seconds but like and then because this is the other thing i don't know if you guys have experienced this this generation the 24 year old guys i date flaky as fuck.

The 40-year-olds are no better. So fucking, I've dated the older guys. They stick to their word. The younger ones, they're like, okay, no. There's always this sense it's not going to work. So I have to line up four other dates. Oh, you mean in that sense. I'm flinging out text messages on a Monday or a Tuesday.

Like, what are you doing on Wednesday? What are you doing on Thursday? Tomatoes on a wall. And Tuesday. Like, what are you doing on Wednesday? What are you doing on Thursday? Like, tomatoes on a wall. And it's just to see what sticks. But I like to do the voice note and chat. So we have a bit of pre-game banter. I feel like I did on Tinder, I did in my profile that said,

if you ask me to a gig, I'll say yes. Because it was like, I was going through like a music phase. And I just wanted to like go to see loads of music. And I was like, actually, then in the end, I could have gone to a good gig. And whether this worked out, it didn't really matter or not yeah and so I ended up that was my way and if anyone said ICA this person's playing come with me and I'd be like yeah fine and I felt like that really worked for me but also I wasn't invested in finding a relationship on dating apps I was using them to sleep around and then my dating I started hooking up with

someone and I was like this is really fun let's keep like, this is really fun. Let's keep it casual. Let's keep it casual. Let's keep it casual. And eight years and one baby later, you know, I think we're still keeping it casual. I hear this from a lot of my single girl mates about dating apps and the death of dating apps. It's just a game now and you don't really make meaningful connections. You're literally, and I'm so not much about that problem, you're just doom swiping, right?

All day. But all day. And it takes up so much time. Like, I'd wonder two things, the perspective from boys, what they think, as in their experience with women, and who is actually doing what you and your partner did, like meeting on a dating app in this day and age and carrying on.

I mean, surely there are people. I definitely think it's still happening. And I think dating apps are like dying and there's some new shift of how people are feeling about them. But I think, you know, because they're always there, like Instagram, like Twitter, like everything,

you're always going to be able to just go to them easily. I have a theory, something to discuss. What do you think would happen if the government suddenly blocked all dating apps on all of our phones because i think then suddenly you'll be like i've got put energy into dating because right now it's too you're too lazy it's too easy so what do you think during a takeout or watching netflix what do you think would happen i think we'd all go absolutely batshit crazy go to the bars make an effort look like you be like hello there sir you'd end up snoring loads of strangers i don't know yeah I think that that's true because I think about it in my 20s.

I'm aging myself now. But we would be out a little bit more. So you'd meet people and you would meet people out and about. And that was a lot nicer, in my opinion, because you kind of have seen him. You don't know if he's a psychopath then, but you will find out. And whilst now, I think, like you said, it's so easy it's like getting dishoom sent yeah it's literally it's like um do you guys ever spend 47 minutes deciding on what to watch because we have the paradox of choice now literally everything is on a control so it's like no not

that i'm not seeing that and i take ages it's like the same when I'm ordering takeout like the the ease with which life has become basically but I think you you would also if it's the ease and the convenience and we don't make an effort and we don't care it's interesting because I've spoken about it with my grandma and my mom especially my mom and my mom's just like your generation has it looks at it everything in a very different light she was just like relationships are work and she's like even when it comes to dating she was just like relationships are work and she's like even when it comes to dating she was just like it's a bit of a power shift now and my parents and I always have this conversation and my dad's also the saying that women have a lot more power now

no one needs a man to take care of them everyone has some level of income of their own to have children or to have children you know you can go buy sperm if you want to so I think there's a real power shift that has happened over the last 10 years where women don't need men really to survive. So when it comes to dating now, like in my 30s, I find that like men are put off a little bit by women that are quite sure of themselves. Yes. I wouldn't say that like I walk in and say, you know what?

I'm the best thing since sliced bread. You don't need to do that, though. It's in how you act. It's in the way you carry yourself. I completely agree. But I think it comes really a bit like ball choppy, sorry to the boys,

that like if you come in and you're a bit more confident, they feel a certain type of way. And I'm like, I'm not here sitting on billions of dollars. It kind of depends on their level of security about themselves. Because, you know,

if they're suddenly like threatened by you or like feel like god the power dynamic is not in my favour and that makes me feel really uncomfortable but some people are just like I respect what you're doing here

because I'm securing myself but I feel like that's a lot more rarer like even with my group of guy friends sorry to all the boys that might hear this even the partners

that they've chosen it's a reflection on that like it's interesting I 100,000% agree with you, Kiara. I think it takes someone like your partner, current, and my ex-partner, to be able to take women like you, me, and us. And it's not just because I'm dating younger men.

When I walk into a room, I'm not walking in being like, ah, I'm fabulous. It's the way I carry myself. I'm confident. I know what I want. And I feel some slash most men not all men

not all men not all men they are I hate it's so on the nose intimidating it just doesn't sit right with them they just don't like it

I almost feel like especially like men in my generation I'm like in my 20s I almost feel like we've kind of regressed in some ways especially with the rise of like Andrew Tate and

male identity crisis and this whole like red pill blue pill like bullshit it almost feels like we're going backwards and the more we become assured

of ourselves the more confident we become the more backwards they go the more backwards they go and the more threatened they are like by our success

and our confidence and it's like instead of doing the work on themselves, they're just like sitting around. And raising us so we could raise you, so we could let each other fly. I mean, hashtag not all men.

Not all men. Not all men. And hashtag not all dating apps because I definitely met my partner on Tinder and it was a great time on Tinder. And I do think things have changed. But I also think, you know, if we're all so busy on our phones,

on public transport, looking down at Tinder, we're missing that time to have that eye contact with the hot guy who just walked onto the tube or we're not making conversation with the person who's giving us coffee and we're like not like all of those small minute interactions that can lead to those things i'm trying to think of like times i've met somebody in person and it's like led to something and it's always been kind of nice like one time when edinburgh university held a this is gonna sound really geeky, I went to Edinburgh. They did like an honorary degree ceremony for Annie Lennox. And the university did like a ballot system.

So you get a ticket to go and see. And I applied and I got a ticket. And I ended up sitting next to this guy and there was free champagne. And me and him were just like, this is crazy. Like this is Tuesday afternoon and Annie Lennox is taking an honorary degree. And we got drunk on champagne. And we ended up picking up and having like a six month fling

like just like a ridiculous very sexy just sex thing and I was like that you know that scenario like that that led somewhere

it's so random and sometimes there's like little lucky moments where you're like oh we're both just here and I like I mean it was never going to be long term

but there was like a spark because it was like we were in a cool sparky place together I feel like dating apps are killing the chance yeah that's fine yes because of the endless swiping i feel like it deludes everyone into thinking that there's endless choices whereas if we like done that thing where the let's say the government got involved in band-aid your idea of

banning it i'm sorry i feel like it's a bit fascist of me and everything I really think it could help I think it does I think it does I think it will help because it's like when you're swiping everyone guys, girls, everyone is like I can do better

and you just keep on going and you keep going and going and then because even my my parents always peep over my shoulder because they're intrigued

because they were like this wasn't here like back in the day when the dinosaurs were here and I was just and they were like my dad's like oh he's nice my mum's like oh my god he's gorgeous and I'm like is he there and I was just and they were like my dad's like oh he's nice my mum's like

oh my god he's gorgeous and I'm like is he there and I was like read this and my mum's like yeah but your profile's weird too like this is really you

like is this really you like everyone's putting this very like we all perform don't we we're all like saying our best lines but this you're so right because I met

a couple of exes in the wild that was a fun time and I feel like because I because it wasn't when Instagram and all these things were constantly on our phones. We had them, but they weren't so prevalent that we went out and I met him and I dated him for a year and a half. It was fine.

I think people are much more invested in real life meets because they really want it to work. They can tell everyone the story of how they did not meet their partner on Tinder. Do you know what I mean? It was really funny. There's no taboo or stigma they're saying that you... Absolutely not. That's all completely gone,

which is great. I think once upon a time people did feel like... I think when people meet each other in real life, they invest a little bit more. Oh, yeah. Because they're like,

I bet you want a bus. I really want this to work. I saw you at Starbucks. Yeah, how do you guys do it? Like, it's harder. I know this sounds really weird, but when I go out in the mornings for dog walks

and I go to the coffee shop that's when you get the most looks that is the time because you're not trying no one's trying they see you in a very normal natural light which is weird

Taylor have you ever had any situations where you've had like real life meet that's worked yeah I guess the guy I'm currently seeing we met at my best friend's birthday party. Oh my God, old school. Really nice and normal.

Who did the approach? Tell us the story. We both went out to smoke at the same time and he just started talking to me and just like, started up a conversation. He was really funny, had loads of banter, bantered with him back. We went back inside to the rest of the party it was like a games night kind of thing with a lot of drinking did you do that thing

where you were with him the whole night or did you like chat to him and then leave because that's what I was doing no no no

so it was are we going to be doing the 16 year old games right not too much attention but a little bit of attention oh there was a bit of that but it was like

a lot of a load of his boys and then the birthday girl and us girls and it was like boys versus girls kind of thing so it was like it was really cute and like we will interact with each other sometimes and then interact with like the rest of the group but it was it was just really like natural and like not forced and is this a relationship or is this a

situation ship oh gosh i think i feel like you know you've written the book what is a situation ship i feel like you're the you're the expert on it yeah apparently I think a situationship is a romantic relationship without the defined terms and I would describe what I'm currently in as that the thing is the situationships are normally like a negative thing because I feel like one person out of that partnership probably feels a lot more strongly than the other person does that's inevitable isn't it inevitable and then that's when it comes to an end because you guys normally situationships no one really wants to communicate what they want I don't know if that's a generational thing but from my experience and what I've put into the book everyone's too

scared to communicate what they really want out of fear of rejection or like just fear of being vulnerable which is a very real thing and the reason why I think what I'm in is very positive is because like from the jump I had like said from the beginning I don't want a serious relationship I don't want to have a boyfriend I don't want any of that and he was like cool and then like it was really weird this is the first like open honest, just really calm thing I've ever been in. And that's because like every couple of months, this sounds so like unsexy. We'll have like a little check-in kind of thing.

Cause sometimes I would be scared that he was maybe a bit too invested. I don't know if this is my avoidant attachment style. How long have you been going out? Like over a year. And you're still in a situation ship. You still define it as a situation ship. What do we call it though? This is just like dating. So to me, a situation ship is one down from a year. And you're still in a situation ship. You still define it as a situation ship. What do we call it though?

This is just like dating. So to me, a situation ship is one down from a relationship. You don't say you're committed to each other but you're like

in this thing. So you're a bit more in a relationship. Yeah, you're doing a check in. If I was having a situation, I wouldn't give a shit if he liked me.

But I'm with you. I think it's a situation ship and I think I'm in a situation ship. No, no, no. You're in a single partnership. I think I'm in a situation. No, no, no. You're in a simple partnership. I think I'm in a situation. You're really fucking with her. Because also,

I think also when I first met her. This is why I don't like talking about what I'm doing. Because everyone's like, hold on, what? No, I think you're making me question myself. Like when I started seeing my partner off Tinder, I did the exact same thing as you, like every couple of months,

just check in and be like, we're still casual, right? This is casual, this is casual. And I remember the morning, one morning, one morning, you you know we like had sex the next morning wake up we had sex then i was like anyway i just feel like you're falling in love with me so i'm just gonna like let you know that um this is still casual just so you know like this is still casual and then he was just like yeah cool sure keep telling yourself that. I'll see you tomorrow. And then didn't you both have like a little break where you both slept with other people

and you're like, oh, I didn't like this. Yeah, he ended up going to a film festival and snogging somebody. And then when he came back, and I hadn't done anything with anyone, he came back and he was just like, I felt really weird about it. And actually, like, I don't really want to do that.

Like, how do you feel about that? And I was like, it's fine. We're cool. It's casual. It's fine. It's cool like how do you feel about that and I was like it's fine we're cool it's casual it's fine it's fine I'm totally okay with that I'm fine and then I think it was like

a month afterwards like I totally was just playing it cool as much as possible and then it was like a month afterwards I was with my really really good friend

and we were like just chatting and then I was like yeah I mean he's cool he's cool and then my friend was like really what's going on there and i was like i don't know i just think i love him and then my friend was like have you told him and i was like no no it's casual i think i think part of that is like exactly what you're saying it's the fear of rejection but it's also like we don't want to commit to somebody without knowing that they want to commit back yeah so we

don't want to put our eggs it's like almost you you're testing each other right but then you're like in these black holes you're not I think it's just fear I think there's I think everyone's gone through this traumatic breakup that's probably just shaken them to their core so everyone's a bit like oh my god I don't think I can do this again so everyone just holds back like I know with me after my first very big breakup being like I'm never gonna love again no one's ever gonna match up to this and then I remember the next person I dated after that I was just he like kind of wanted to be very serious very quickly and I was like no but I was really upfront about that I was like I don't think I could go from being with someone for x amount of years to then meeting you and then you turning

around to me and saying I want you to be my wife and move with me away and I was like that's nice I don't care how big the ring is it's not gonna happen and I want you to be my wife and move with me away. And I was like, that's nice. I don't care how big the ring is. It's not going to happen. And I think everyone's just so scared. And I think post-pandemic dating has given a whole new meaning because I think the last batch of people that met people through the dating app was people during the pandemic because people thought this is the only way I'm going to do it. And now people are out in the wild.

Do you not think, though, not our parents' generation and our grandparents' generation, but our generation, there's this expiration dating. Like, you know, back in the day, you might meet someone who, you know, theoretically would be the one that you would be married to and have kids with and have a house with. But now I feel like when I talk to my mates,

you go out with someone and you know it's like, oh, it's going to be a three-month thing or a year thing or something. Like, it's going to be a three month thing or a year thing or something like, it's not, it's not quite long enough because of dating and because of the paradox

of choice and because I could literally go to a sex party, have sex with a girl, a boy, like there's just so much. You're like, you become greedy

for experiences and it's like, well, I can't be with you forever because I, you know, I've got a whole life to live and loads of people to fuck. And I might change my I might change my mind I mean that's that's also if you choose someone you can change your mind like if you have a child or someone you can change

your mind like I think that's I mean actively doing knowing that before you seek it out do you mean like saying that to yourself I think it's really tough because whenever I have the conversation with my single friends like if people I'm I'm always like why can't people just be up front right like if you don't want to have kids just say you don't want to have kids you don't want to get married or you don't believe in it fine whatever it is don't waste people's time and I think that's where it gets annoying because like I'm 34 so there's a lot of people I think guys they're like oh do you want to get married and have kids I said I'd like that in my future I'm not saying that's you like I think there's a long way before we get to that Steven like calm down like where we go here and then them sweating and freaking out

that I want to have their spawn and I'm like no I went out with this guy it was really funny but I look back and slightly problematic but I quite liked his numbering system because I have the same because he's like I avoid going out with girls who are 29 30 because they are very much understandably eggs job career so going out with them he's like he's like I wouldn't say it's not fun but I definitely feel like I'm the spotlight and I'm like and the dates are very much like so what are you up to what are your plans what are you doing yeah yeah and he's like I tend to go out with girls who are the kind of guys you go out with 24 I'm like he's like you do the same I was like but he's like meant my mental dating age is 24 so i can see what it's like no strings attached fun fun fun and then on the other

side you know when you go out with like 45 plus when they've won their second marriage and they're like fucking i'll take whatever i can get and i'm like hello so you've really got to find like a sweet a sweet like leveler like leveler and an age group where you're like, okay, I think we want the same things. But also I don't, I think sometimes you don't know what you want until you have it in front of you. So you're like,

you know, I don't think I ever really wanted to get married. And to be honest, I think having children and like living where I live in the central suburbs, it's like really conventional. Not at all what I imagined as a teenager, but I'm really fucking happy with my choices. And like from an outside perspective, my 15 year old self is like

you sold out but I'm like I think it's okay it's so funny the life you have is the life I thought I was going to have and I don't have that life and I'm also really happy with my life choices so it takes you in funny twists and turns I know I did think that by this point I'd have like a 5 year old and like I'm very happy and a Mercedes

I thought I'd have a Mercedes by now well 5 year olds you've got to watch out for them two loose stools like a five-year-old and like I'm very happy and a Mercedes I thought I'd have a Mercedes by now well five-year-olds you gotta watch out for them two loose stools it's true I think everyone like gets to the place that they need to get to

at that time and I think you meet people and you pick up like things along the way and I think everyone just puts a lot of and I think women

do put a lot of pressure on themselves like you said like women in their 30s also we have to like if you want kids the eggs are dying the eggs are dying freeze them freeze them I froze mine but I think women do put a lot of pressure on themselves. Like you said, like women in their thirties. Also we have to, like if you want kids. The eggs are dying. The eggs are dying.

Freeze them. Freeze them. I froze mine. But I think there's this innate pressure in your brain. Right. And I think it's like a brown girl. Like, you know,

whenever I go to a wedding, like that's the first thing they ask me. And my dad gets really annoyed because he's like, she's accomplished a lot. And like, my parents are so proud of everything I've done that they're like, no one comes and says that you've done all these things. Why is this the only thing that matters?

Because we put so much value in finding a man who will complete you. I mean, there's so many bloody celebrations now. It's like a wedding shower, a bachelorette, or something else.

I'm like, when are we celebrating the single people? Exactly. Hello. Like when I get married, I'm going to get married on an island that everyone has to spend a lot of money to come to.

And I want a Birkin. It's's true there are lots of like celebratory things around like couples and families yeah and that's like a kid did you have that same level of pressure from your parents about like getting the bonds what's your what's your background not at all so my mom is Bengali born and raised in southeast London your mom bengali oh my god and she i feel like her growing up she kind of hit the trifecta of all the worst things a young brown girl could do in her family like could you say she married her she are you half black as well yeah half jamaican so my mum met my dad fen and love so with a black guy in the 90s, that's one. Number two, sex before wedlock, got pregnant with me as a teenager.

Oh, in the 90s. Oh, your poor mum. Yeah. What's the third thing? Oh, converted to Christianity. Wow. I feel like she should be on here. We need mum here.

We need mum. That is amazing. And how did she handle that? What was kind of the reaction from your grandparents? I think when my mum was pregnant with me, obviously like outcasts kicked out straight away. She moved in with dad and stuff.

And then I think after my grandma saw me, she was like, she fell in love. And then back in the day. Hang on, your mum's mum? Yeah. They forget when the baby comes. Yeah, they always forget when the baby comes. I'm also Christian

so it's predominantly black church so yeah but I think and is finding another Christian important to you it is so I'm just like

analysing you right now no no no it is important to me and I think that's why I've slowed things down with like the person that I'm currently seeing just because

I would never force like my beliefs or like how important my faith is onto somebody else which is I'm not going to do that with um him so that's why I've had to slow things down but going back to practicing or Christian or he says he's spiritual like he grew up going to church and now he's spiritual it's a spiritual situationship and stuff like that which is that be enough for you say if you were thinking about no only because like my parents like my my mom and dad were like you know they're about christians and like i loved having that kind of upbringing and i've had a very positive healthy relationship with my faith and

i would like like to have that in in my future so with this guy then would you say you're just doing their exploration situation yeah It's a spiritual situation. I would say so. Because, yeah, I'm going through, well, I'm not going through, but my last ex-partner was a militant atheist. My next future partner, when I'm ready to be in a relationship, he has to fake convert. I mean, ideally he'd be a Muslim,

but if he isn't, he has to pretend to be Muslim so I can connect him to my family. So when I next, right now I'm fucking and having, well, I'm barely getting laid actually. I have no time. But when I'm ready to be in a relationship, and I like someone, like at what point do you say there's no point in continuing this? Because I know I'm not going to, unless you're willing, but it's such a loaded thing to say so early on.

And it's really hard to suss someone out like right at the start I think that was my second date with my partner I was like do you want to have kids and we were like just waiting in line

to go and see a film and I was like what film was it I can't even remember oh it was like some Andy Warhol film at the Barbican and I remember saying to him

like you know like do you ever think about having kids and he's I remember so clearly he was like yeah the idea of children sounds really nice hypothetically yes and I was like tick in my head that's good that's good and the religion thing was really interesting because I'm like I'm my mum's

you know my family's Muslim and I have actually made my child Muslim too and it wasn't it was like not even a heavy discussion to have with him because he was like you're from this religious family but also your community and your identity are so like tied into each other. I can't even divide being Muslim and being Asian. They're just the same thing. That's all I know. So like for me, if I start to build this human being and his identity,

I'm like, there is half of you that is this. And then to do that, you have to be Muslim. You have to go to mosque with my mum. You have to see the community. Well, I told my ex-partner, I was like, they're going to be raised Muslim, you know? And he's like, no, we're going to give them the six major faiths and then they can decide when they're 18.

And I'm like, oh, stop being so fucking fair with your fucking bullshit. You need to give them rules. Exactly. Exactly. This is why I'm not going to be a mum. Exactly. I'm like, children are terrifying. They have the internet now.

So we need to limit that stuff. We need to give them. Yeah, it's true. Because then they'll'll be like i would like to be a scientologist actually it's so weird especially now with the fuckeries of online dating and when you're ready and you want to be in a relationship not a situation ship when do you start slowly seeding those this is an important value oh my god because you have it on the app no no no no but you're not doing that right you're not putting on your app because this is like come on we're talking about religion in this kind of like you you sound like you're actually a practicing christian yeah but probably for us like you're not putting that absolutely you're not putting muslim on your dating app do you put christian on your dating app when i was

on them i did put it on there but when i met the guy that i'm seeing now like i i think it was a random thing that he texted me like oh what are you doing today and i was like oh i'm just going church with my family gonna have dinner afterwards and then that's when that conversation started just really casual just because it's so like embedded in yeah I feel like a lot of girls do a lot of inner work whatever that is whether it's through faith or whether it's through therapy or whether it's just talking to their girlfriends and getting it all out there whilst I feel like guys still there's a lot of stigma working through things so everyone has this

like they think that they need to provide they think that they need to be a certain way for you and you're like actually but they don't talk to each other like with my ex-partner

he'd come back from a night out with the well not a night out with the boys just like in the pub but so what what gossip happened what are you saying

like so what's happening with his wife what are they doing nothing is broken oh my god and literally I'm like tell me everything last night my partner said last night my partner said to me you know you're really nosy not noisy sorry that's what

we talk about noisy no he was like you're really nosy and I'm like you think I'm not like nosy and he was like he was like you walk into all rooms you're like what's going on what's happening who's this who's this I think otherwise why did I come here I think it's what women do and I'm like I want to know what happened with you know we it's like we think it's what women do. And I'm like, I want to know what happened with you. It's like we think it's this natural instinct to like connect and ask each other questions. I love that my partner's being like, it's very, very intrusive. And I'm like, no, it's a natural thing. We have to, this is probably what we're doing in the dark ages. But it's also because of embarrassment.

I had this conversation with one of my guy friends recently where we were saying, as a guy, it's terrifying. He's like, to have sex, it's also just as terrifying. But but as a guy we're scared to talk about it with our guy friends yes he's like i could come and say to you but he's like you might think of me as less of a man yes and i was like i don't want to bang you so i don't care and he's like yeah but you said that but he said you might go and tell that to some one of the girls yeah and then it gets around and then the girl what might not the girl he's so right though and then i was like ah interesting but i also think that asian girls don't talk about sex enough meaning with their actual girlfriend yes i agree and i think only now in my 30s i've had a bit more open i'm not saying things to my girlfriends not now but since this podcast i wouldn't have said

not in that much detail four five years ago i think it was a one of my best friends with her like i'm just like you know so much about me sometimes that like I feel like we've not had these sort of conversations and everyone is scared to say anything because you don't want to be seen as either a slut or this or whatever the other words it goes on. We basically have ho shame and men don't have like

don't have a big enough dick shame you know what I mean like performing you know the guys taking Viagra after sex and porn and like unrealistic expectations. Yeah, it's an unrealistic expectation for guys. The older I've gotten, the more conversations

that like has come up, you know, with the women, you know, a few finos in a lot of chat about like, oh my God, we're not having sex. Yeah. Is it because you're,

because the sex on offer is bad because no one is communicating because I think it's like, asking for what they want. Yeah, because I think in a lot of like brown culture, I can only speak about the brown woman's experience, there is so much shame around sex that even when...

And pleasure. Yeah, so like you, it's shameful to do, it's shameful to speak. So then when you get into a relationship and if it is after marriage or even if it's after a serious relationship, you still have this inbuilt shame. Like even though you might be a liberal woman

who's making her own money and doing all this thing, it's so inbuilt. Yeah, you're fighting against a voice. Listen, if white chicks still have shame around sex, we're fucked. Okay, now it's time for the Shaggy Aunties. So we've had an email come in and I will read it. Hi Robina and Poppy.

I have a bit of an awkward dilemma that I would love your advice on and feel like you're the only girls I know who I feel safe enough to admit this to. Love you. I'm actually a 35 year old virgin and brown girl. I was raised pretty religiously and also have had a crippling, cripplingly low self-esteem and high functioning anxiety for years. For years, I felt way too intimidated to ever put myself out there on online dating. So now I find myself single and alone and virtually no experience with men. I did try online dating a few years ago, but burst into tears at the thought of meeting up in person for fear of disappointing the guy. I started working

on my anxiety and feel just about ready to try online dating again. But I don't know how to go about explaining my situation to guys. While I'm open to sex before marriage, the thought of admitting to a guy how little experience I have is terrifying. What if it's a huge blocker? What if I turn out to be terrible at kissing and sex? That is so lovely. Can I just say, I don't think there is a formula for kissing or sex. So like, don't worry about that. Kiss for kissing or sex no so like don't worry about that kissing is like kind of experimental dancing it really is exactly it's my job to

dance exactly it's like you know everyone has to find their rhythm I kind of love that for you I mean yeah look I'm thank you so much writing to us and being sorry but not so lovely and you know if we can help we will try and with our lovely guests also might have some some answers for you but I don't think the person I slept with the first time when i was a virgin knew that i was a virgin why do you feel compelled to tell them that you're a virgin you didn't have to do that maybe she doesn't feel like she has to but the the block in her head is like i'm gonna they're gonna know they're gonna know and it's gonna be awful and i'm gonna be sex is so subjective sometimes when i have sex i'm like fuck I would want to have sex with me. You've got to shift it.

Sometimes. Sometimes. Sometimes I'm like, oh, God, you're fucking terrible and lazy. Get out. Like, you perform at different, you know. Sometimes you just sit back and think of England and the other times you think you're a porn star. And that's fine. But I think it's like a block in your mind.

Like, the older you get, the more stressed out you get. It's like when you were younger you'd jump off like a higher ledge and you wouldn't break a leg whilst now she's like oh my god if I jump off this ledge

he's gonna hurt me this is gonna be this dating is like driving you kind of have to practice and not all dates have to lead to sex

go for a few dates and go for a coffee date go and get fingered that will really help you know get to the next I wasn't gonna say that I think just just to build up your confidence I think it would be really simple things Just go on dates and go for a coffee date. Go and get fingered. That will really help, you know, get to the next floor. I wasn't going to say that. I think just to build up your confidence,

I think it would be really simple things. Like just either when you go, say to a workout class, right? Putting yourself out there and being friends with like the people around you. And you might meet a guy there. You might be able to go get a coffee or whether it's going on a dating app, meeting guys and not having drinks that may lead to sexy things. Maybe it not being a sexy date. that make sense like daytime dating then it's not there's no pressure of sex your pressure is the key word i don't know if it will be redundant to to advise this person to kind of get out of your head a little bit yeah because like you guys kind of alluded to earlier

not a lot of guys aren't really please not a lot of guys aren't really. Phased. Yeah, a lot of guys aren't phased by like a lack of experience or like, you know, previous sexual experiences. So I think getting out of your head and just enjoying dating for what it is, which is at its core, just getting to know someone and I feel like if you've built that rapport and connection with someone that cares about you and values who you are as a person outside of your body and your appearance and things then when you do get to those like intimate moments I feel like the right person should make you feel should always make you feel confident. I'm going to come back on my advice there's a line that she says here that she says, I burst into tears at the thought of meeting up a person for fear of disappointing them. And I'm like, I don't want to do this eat, love, pray bullshit,

but she's got to love herself. She's got to find what works for her body. She needs to look in the mirror, have fun with her body, know what she likes, have some confidence, get out of her head. And then maybe training wheels go on a few dates that don't necessarily

lead to sex in fact imagine they're not going to lead to sex and you're not there to perform for the guy you're there for you I guess the big thing

is also like sex is a performance the world's a stage we all perform every day so if you want to get out of your head just pretend you're someone else

look in the mirror and fake it go out and pretend you're somebody else and just try and do it and also rejection it happens to all of us all of us in this room have been rejected we will be rejected again i get rejected every day at work like you know all of that is good for you also also she needs to not put the man's pleasure before hers

which i think a lot of women do right like she's thinking about how she's going to disappoint yeah good point and so it's about you it's about you. It's about you, honey. She's probably going to be more disappointed. Also do loads of kissing. Exactly. Do loads of kissing and dry humping because that's all the fun stuff.

Anyway, that's all for now. Thank you so much for coming on Bravo Do It Too. Thank you so much. It was such a joy. Look up and the government should ban dating apps.

The end. Let's just all bring our hands together and have a moment of silence for all the dating apps. Hinge, tinge, as you like to call it. Bumble, rare, shardy. Field, musmatch. Musmatch. Plenty of fish.

Good night. God bless. And I hope that the new world is ahead for all of us.