Brown Girls Do It Too - A Painful One

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Pain: it can be fleeting, chronic, visceral, dull, sharp, completely debilitating. Poppy & Rubina are joined by Naga Munchetty to discuss what women live with.Naga has spoken publicly about her di...agnosis of adenomyosis, and working as a top BBC presenter whilst experiencing debilitating pain.One in 10 women is thought to have the womb condition, yet it can often go undiagnosed for years.Have a message for Poppy and Rubina? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at browngirlsdoittoo@bbc.co.ukIf you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

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Starting point is 00:00:01 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. The following episode is about pain. It can be fleeting, chronic, visceral, dull, sharp, completely debilitating. We all have individual pain thresholds. Some of us can handle more. Some of us can't handle it at all. This warning might feel painfully predictable, but we're here to protect you. This episode will contain strong language and adult content. Ouch.
Starting point is 00:00:32 Or maybe ooh. I think an ooh. I think an ouch. Isn't ouch just a funny way to express pain? Because when you actually get kicked in the gonads... You don't say ouch, you do. You'd be like, ugh. You'd be like, ugh.
Starting point is 00:00:44 I'm constantly grunting you know my flatmate kieran's now picked up my grunts whenever i'm in pain or i stub my toe on the door i'm like oh and now i hear her doing it as well when i am was giving birth i was making these dinosaur noises that that's for me is like the most primitive expression of pain where you're like oh like it's so deep that's actually a pretty decent dinosaur sound as well. I mean, not T-Rex level, but. It's a stegosaurus. This is a podcast about sex.
Starting point is 00:01:14 At least it started off like that. Now we talk about everything. Everything is sex. And sex is everything. And that includes our mistakes, our heartbreaks. And our hot, hot, hot takes I'm Rubina and my pain threshold is the feeling straight after having my bumhole waxed Why is this a thing?
Starting point is 00:01:32 I'm Poppy and my pain threshold is pretty high I do get the full Brazilian on the regs Have you had a full Brazilian? Is that where they get rid of everything? Everything It's a Hollywood No, it's a Brazilian Is it? What's a Hollywood? Hollywood is when they keep the front triangle parts,
Starting point is 00:01:49 but like get rid of the... No, you're getting fingered. I mean, not actually fingered. Sorry, the people in the room are wagging their fingers at you and saying you're wrong. I'm doing that again. I'm doing that again. I'm Poppy and my pain threshold is pretty high.
Starting point is 00:02:02 I get the full Hollywood on the regular. Wow. Yeah, producers just tell me the full Hollywood on the regular. Wow. Yeah, producers just tell me the difference between a Brazilian and a Hollywood and I absolutely want to know for the record, I want everyone to know
Starting point is 00:02:11 for the record that I get the Hollywood not the Brazilian. Do you ever mix it up? Or do you just always get Hollywood? I always get Hollywood, everything, everything,
Starting point is 00:02:17 all the time. The first time I got Hollywood in my life, I swear to God, I had hair as long as the hair on your head I'd never had I'd never got a Hollywood before and I used to go to this Bengali auntie who would do my underarms and legs and she was doing my pussy for the first time which just felt so intimate because it was like
Starting point is 00:02:34 my mum doing it so she got her assistant to do it and this assistant fucking hated my guts and do you know what she did and this is like I never ever got my bush waxed at this point she didn't use hot wax she used strip wax they were this big they definitely don't know how to do that they were this big
Starting point is 00:02:51 and she used it on my hairy bush and you know usually when they're meant to go like this they're meant to go and then they press down on the thing
Starting point is 00:02:58 and it's supposed to be tiny tiny you know sections tiny sections it was like the fucking thing the massive pads that you get on your leg and she did it so slowly I tiny sections it was like the fucking thing that you the massive pads that
Starting point is 00:03:05 you get on your leg and she didn't she did it so slowly I was in so I was like if this is what child but it was it was honestly and I'm a little bit embarrassed to say this given the pain that women feel either through childbirth or their period but genuinely it was the most pain physical pain I'd ever been in my life but pain is so subjective because I would go so far as to say having my bum hole waxed is more painful than me having my child
Starting point is 00:03:33 can I say something I fucking love having my bum hole waxed oh really yeah and I well like you enjoy it I love it enjoy the pain
Starting point is 00:03:40 or just enjoy the feeling of having a fresh bum hole I feel like the pain pleasure threshold is a real fine line. I went on another podcast and I gave them a riddle. And I said, what feels really nice and is so hot and just feels so lovely against your skin and then in about a second is the most painful?
Starting point is 00:03:58 And I mean, I didn't say it like that, I'm ad-libbing, but I said it better to them. Waxing. And it was waxing. And they were like, oh my God, it is. And it's like you're lyinging and they were like oh my god it is and it's like you're lying there and they're putting
Starting point is 00:04:07 hot wax and it's going into every crevice of your vagina and it feels so good and it's so nice and warm and hot and then it's like okay it's going to last
Starting point is 00:04:14 five seconds this pain this pressure's going to last five seconds it's like do you know what the worst thing about waxing is which is different
Starting point is 00:04:21 is like the anticipation of the pain yes so like you know it's coming so you're like it's coming it's coming it's coming I feel like with period cramps and stuff you kind of you do actually probably know that they're coming but sometimes they do just come up on you yeah and you don't know and you don't know oh you don't know yeah today we want to talk about
Starting point is 00:04:35 you guessed it pain but not the kinky kind and not even the emotional kind we're talking about the straight up excruciating kind of pain that, let's be honest, a lot of us just learn to live with. The pain of period cramps, childbirth, the kind you can experience during or after sex. Although I know we spent a good amount of time. Or before. Yeah, sure. Before. What's happening before? They're like climbing on you. Are they an elephant? Why are they crushing you? Are they choking your airways? You know, they're doing this thing now in offices where they want to educate businesses and offices about women. Back pain.
Starting point is 00:05:10 No, no, menopause. There's a thing in the news right now where they want to, because obviously you have premenopausal and menopausal women, and they have hot flushes and they're trying to be much more mindful and educate other men and women about what a premenopausal or a menopausal woman is going through but period pain it happens it's biological it's part of your body but do you get bad period pains um i did pre coil and then i had a coil for like a few years and my periods got really heavy and then the then they were really really bad sorry they weren't bad then i had the coil then they were really bad and then when the coil was removed they've kind of leveled out right um but yeah
Starting point is 00:05:47 since childbirth and since having a child I feel like I don't feel that much pain I think it wasn't like a long long pain for me when I had a really short childbirth but it was like really intense and then it kind of relaxed like most pain like I think those people have to suffer from like really hardcore intense pain for a long time is really difficult. But I remember you saying actually that it wasn't so much pain, but you talked about your body after after bubs. What happens to your body like having to because you bleed constantly and no one sort of tells you like the physiological changes. It's also you feel like you've been hit by a car. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You're just like really exhausted.
Starting point is 00:06:22 You feel like everything is a bit bruised yeah but also i tore um when my child's head came out of my vagina um i had like a like a second degree tear is this a tear that goes from your vag to your arse hole uh it's i mean i didn't tear that that's like the whole tear lots of people i didn't have that i had a god yeah first like a i had a very minor tear that she just did a stitch on. But I remember when his head was coming out, the like, I mean, I was quite like high on hormones. And I remember her saying like, don't push. Like if you can hold back a push. And I was like, it's coming out, I'm not doing it. And then feeling the tear and it just feeling like a burn.
Starting point is 00:06:57 And I think a burn is really interesting pain. Like, you know, when you have a burn and it feels like, is this really happening to me? It's kind of like an out of body experience because you get really hot. And then you get really cold and then it feels really weird. And then you run it under a tap and it feels like, is this really happening to me? Yeah. It's kind of like an out-of-body experience because you get really hot. Yeah. And then you get really cold and then it feels really weird and then you run it under a tap and it feels like not your skin.
Starting point is 00:07:09 Skin, yeah. It's like someone else's thumb or finger. Pain is so weird because it is a bit otherworldly because it's like you're tapping into this other part of your body. Let me tell you something about Bengalis who don't speak English, right? I used to work in the NHS in East London and obviously there'd be loads of Bangladeshi patients because of the big, big woolly community in Tower Hamlets.
Starting point is 00:07:27 And the one word that they knew was bish, and bish meant pain. So the doctors would come around and they would spend about two minutes with each patient, if that, very quickly. And like, old daddy ma and nanny and dada would be like, bish, bish, bish. And it's so subjective.
Starting point is 00:07:43 And they'd show them, because you know when they show like a happy face and a smiley face like one is smiling ten is not but these Bengalis man they just go to
Starting point is 00:07:51 ten all the time I don't speak English I'm just going to pick ten to be honest pop those pills do you know what I mean I was reading how like the word pain
Starting point is 00:07:59 or different like words for pain in different languages and apparently like the Spanish have like multiple in Spanish they have like multiple words for pain and because they're much more of an expressive culture when it comes to like emotion and feeling and i was like i think the same thing about my
Starting point is 00:08:09 parents when they were like i'd say like my dad is a bit more like stoic and he'd like never really expressed when my mom had pain it was a quite dramatic pain oh right like a headache would be like oh but do you think that's like actual pain or like asian women like self-drama because my mom i was so embarrassed one day yeah I was on my street walking and there was an ambulance parked outside my house there's like three houses joined together so I was like it's probably for the neighbour I walk in I see two paramedics and I'm like oh my god is everything okay what's happened my mum my mother My mother called 999 because she had cystitis. I was mortified.
Starting point is 00:08:50 I, like, died. I yelled at her and I feel really bad because she was in pain and I just like... Pops, this is literally probably a genetic problem for you and your family. That's why you get cystitis so badly. It all makes no sense. This is going to be the result of your DNA test. My 23 and me just have cystitis. You've got 12 first cousins who all suffer from cystitis. Honestly, I'm like, mum, how did you do this?
Starting point is 00:09:10 Why did you do this? And when I think about this woman and the pain, the physical pain, the emotional pain, the mental pain that she must have suffered throughout her lifetime. And she, I mean, she must have been in fucking bad pain to call the ambulance for cystitis. But it is so subjective.
Starting point is 00:09:24 And I think opposite to the Spanish community we don't probably have enough words and actually if any Bengali listeners are out there and we do please correct me
Starting point is 00:09:31 if I'm wrong but it seems quite monolithic pain my mum has this phrase when she has a headache which is like which is like someone's eating my head
Starting point is 00:09:39 yeah like that's when she has a headache but it also means that she's pissed off with you because you're eating stop bugging her you're eating her head.
Starting point is 00:09:45 Asians always take it back to like a child annoying them. You know what I mean? I'm also in pain, but you're also fucking annoying me. Yeah, but it's just like so interesting. It's like eating your head. Like that does, that feels really like visual. Yeah. You know, kind of that matches the pain.
Starting point is 00:09:57 And when we think about like women and pain, you know, the obvious ones are sort of, I mean, you've got your chronic conditions, of course like childbirth periods can I just say sex if you've not had sex for a while painful painful yeah actually when I first had sex after like my five-month height I was like do I have cystitis I mean I didn't because I hadn't had sex but it's it's like like stinging burning sensation because nothing's been in there yeah I mean I'm about to get more graphic. So I've had a baby, had a stitch down there. And the doctors say, wait six to eight weeks before you have sex again. Did you wait?
Starting point is 00:10:33 Of course. I had a stitch down there. Oh, yeah, sorry. So I was like, okay, the first time we're going to have sex is going to be really painful. Yeah. Like it's just going to be painful. And I was like psyching myself up in my head for how painful it was going be and like I'd had the baby but I was breastfeeding so I couldn't like you know get really wasted and yeah just do it to me just do it to me so I was like I had to like you know
Starting point is 00:10:52 like not sedate myself in any way I just had to be like just do it and it was so painful yeah it was so painful and it took me ages to like enjoy sex again after having a baby really I did not yeah it took me a while like you just gotta got to get back into the rhythm of it. What happens down there? Like what's the sensations? It's just like tight and tough. I love it when it's tight and tough. I quite like it when sex hurts though.
Starting point is 00:11:13 I think you, yeah, you do enjoy a bit of painful sex. See, I think I grew up thinking that's all sex was. Like, you know, it would always be a bit painful. Like I think a lot of women think most sex starts off painful until you get a bit wet, but just don't let them put it in until you're wet no I quite like that I don't like it when it's really slippery sloppery where it's just like well I like the lube like oh I'm really I mean I know I'm not into like recently a friend said that she's never tried lubrication
Starting point is 00:11:38 I'm like wouldn't you just want to try it I mean yeah try it try before you buy I mean see if you're into it but like of all the other things that you can do in sex no she's never done that oh she's never done that either okay when you first started having sex
Starting point is 00:11:50 was it painful you know about my infamous how I lost my virginity to your cousin to my cousin to my cellocomies wearing socks wearing socks
Starting point is 00:11:58 it's such a visual I don't think about it that much but I remember the cellocomies I remember the socks. But it was so painful, so painful. But it was all in my head.
Starting point is 00:12:10 So like how much was that actual pain and mental pain? Because I'd seized up, not seized up. Yeah, I sort of, I wasn't relaxed. So it was like mental pain feeding into emotional pain, feeding into mental pain. And it was like this Negative like loop But what about you I mean look a hard
Starting point is 00:12:30 Penis going into a small tight space Is going to Have some some friction which I love I'm loving it already you're turning me on I fucking love that it's like crazy not to be like Some of it will feel uncomfortable It's not like you It's not going to fit like a glove is it?
Starting point is 00:12:45 Have you had sex with a really massive cock like when it's been and you felt pain? Yes Okay so I'm dying where are these big cocks? Because I reckon I'd be fine
Starting point is 00:12:54 No No I reckon I've got a massive vagina as in I've actually got a tight big vagina like when you blow her up like there's space but she's quite tight
Starting point is 00:13:02 Wow I don't even know how that works like a water balloon. Yeah. I've had some guys say some problematic things to me when they have sex with me. Like your vagina's like, your vagina's tight. Yeah. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:13:14 He's giving me a compliment, but this is a very problematic compliment. But you're kind of in the moment. But okay. We're going to call up our amazing colleague. I love that she is our colleague. Want to get lunch in the canteen one day? That is just a date I'm paying out there for you. Today on the show, we have Naga Manchetti,
Starting point is 00:13:36 and she's here to talk about that kind of pain. Naga is a BBC presenter, but that doesn't quite cut it as an intro. Oh, no. She's a household name. Whether it's her five-live show or BBC Breakfast, she's a brown girl doing it all. She plays jazz, trumpet and golf, sometimes in constant pain, and she's no longer keeping quiet about it. Welcome to Brown Girls Do It here, Rabina and Poppy. And I'm a bit gutted that you decided your BBC Canteen lunch was far superior and far more important than actually just saying
Starting point is 00:14:12 hello. Look, I'm going to set the scene, OK? The BBC Canteen is where Rabina and I, we often see really high profile presenters and then we'll interrupt our ridiculously pathetic salad to be like, oh my God, that's that guy. Oh my God, that's that guy with the suspenders, but he looks really, really short in real life. What is he doing? Oh, is he eating a Kit Kat? And we saw you and you had something in your,
Starting point is 00:14:31 like you just looked really busy and you were quite far away in our defence. And we only had like 20 minutes for lunch, I think. So I'm just going to tell you, I'm intimidated by you and I'd be terrified to come up and speak to you in person because I think you're really cool. I wasn't intimidated by you, but I thought you were amazing. But I also just wanted to finish my chicken salad.
Starting point is 00:14:48 The next time we see you, we will make a concerted effort to get up, walk over, interrupt your thing and say hello. Yes. Well, I'd say two things. One, I don't think I'm intimidating, but I don't think anyone does think that they're intimidating
Starting point is 00:15:03 or if they do, they enjoy it. So I don't think I am. And that's that. Secondly, I think I've been in the BBC canteen twice. Definitely you. Anyway, this episode, we are talking about pain and you have very publicly spoken about a condition that you have and how that has impacted your life. Would you be up for talking to everyone a little bit more about your condition, you have and how that has impacted your life. Would you be up for talking to everyone a little bit more about your condition, naming it, and kind of talking about how painful it's been for you? Of course, only if you give it a go at saying it. Adenomyosis?
Starting point is 00:15:34 Yeah, it's either adenomyosis or adenomyosis. I say adenomyosis, but same thing. Good save, because I wouldn't have done it, probably. Is that how this works? You just, like, there's one person who's good at pronouncing stuff and there's one. No, no, no, no, no. That's not how we work. I think duos do have a certain balance though, don't they?
Starting point is 00:15:52 Like I would say one of us, when one of us is stupid, the other one's smart. And then we just switch that up. But they're the best duos. They're the best duos because especially if you're interviewing someone and you want to give the, you want to kind of get more out of them. If there's one that you know they're gravitating to, that one can act as if they're less knowledgeable or a little bit softer and then they open up to you
Starting point is 00:16:14 and then the other one can swoop in. Yeah, or like good guy, good cop, bad cop type. We never really do good cop, bad cop. We just do clown one and clown two. That's kind of our spiel, that's our get up. So yes, please tell us about adenomyosis adenomyosis is a condition where take your uterus and you have you heard of endometriosis yes yes so that's when um the lining of the womb endometrium can um grow in the lining of the womb and adenomyosis grows outside the uterus and it's often known as the evil twin sister of
Starting point is 00:16:47 endometriosis. And what happens is during your cycle, your monthly cycle, if it's monthly for you, or your cycle, your menstrual cycle, at certain points, the endometrium, these bits, I'm trying to explain it really clearly, these bits flare up. And if it's outside the uterus, and it can cause intense pain, obviously, if you have it inside the womb and the lining of the womb, and it can affect pregnancy chances. But if you have it in the outside, it flares up and it tears the muscles that are holding your body together, basically. So it can travel down your thighs, it can travel into your pelvis, into your lower back and outside. And just imagine your muscles being torn when these endometrium flare. And it's a condition that could be hereditary, it could just happen.
Starting point is 00:17:36 And it can often contribute to really heavy periods, pain, painful periods. And the only reason I became diagnosed with it is there were two things that happened. About a year and a half ago, I'd bled for 35 days nonstop, like a first, second day period. And I was like, after 11 days, I was like, this isn't right. Because you have your period and usually the first, well, for me, it was always like the first five, six days were really heavy. And then the last four, five were medium to nothing. This was 11 days. And so I rang the GP and just said, look, I bled, heavy bleeding for 11 days. And they were like, right, come in at 2.30.
Starting point is 00:18:21 I was expecting to be told to come in next week. But straight away, the receptionist was like, come in at 2 30 i was expecting to be told to come in next week but straight away the receptionist was like come in saw the doctor and her her immediate concern obviously was is this injury is this cancer you know what kind of bleed is this and so when she examined me she said this looks like uterine bleeding so like period but this is not right because you've never bled like this before and i continue to bleed for 35 days. And I booked an appointment with a gynecologist and got scanned. And in the scan, they found it looks like stripes in the muscles around your uterus. And it's where they've torn. And that's obviously because it's happened again and again and again. But during that time as well, I had really bad incidents where I would
Starting point is 00:19:09 be doubled over in pain, throwing up or just from the pain, not from bleeding. And at one point I ended up, I got home after the theatre, I'd been with a friend and I got home. By the time we'd stopped at the station, got to the station, she was driving, she drove me home. And between the station and my home, which was about eight minutes, I stopped talking to her because I was in so much pain. And, you know, I don't know if you have bad period pain. I hope you don't. But a lot of women do. You know, you kind of feel sick and you feel faint and you
Starting point is 00:19:45 kind of get like blushes because you think you're going to faint or throw up kind of had that feeling and I thought just get home just get home just get home and she dropped me home and um I said Michelle I can't speak I'm not well she's like okay I said don't even drive into my driveway just leave me here and I'll walk and by the time I got to the front door, I was bent over double and couldn't walk up the stairs because I was just in so much pain and really dizzy. I went to bed and I literally could not be put in a position that was comfortable. I was, and I'm there. I don't even have to say this. I say it, but I resent the fact that I have to say this.
Starting point is 00:20:19 Like I'm tough and I know how to deal with pain because I do, physical pain. I've had it all my life, my periods. But I was screaming and the bed was wet from my sweat and my partner could not get me. I couldn't roll myself over. So we ended up calling an ambulance and there was none available. And eventually when I spoke to a paramedic, I was told to take paracetamol because they just didn't know the condition. And so I read this piece that we were doing. We have a morning meeting on five lives.
Starting point is 00:20:56 And we read this. I'd read this piece by Kathleen Moran years before about the coil, which I'd spoken about. And so my team knew I was quite, not happy, but I would be prepared to talk about stuff that matters and affects other women. Anyway, I was talking to them about adenomyosis. And I said, I had this condition and I said, this is rubbish, blah, blah, blah. And that had happened that weekend. So I decided to talk about it. And the response was outstanding, unbelievable. The number of women who'd been diagnosed whose lives had been ruined for periods of time and mine wasn't that bad. I've managed to work and just load up with painkillers and stuff and just organize my life but it was a problem. But women who couldn't
Starting point is 00:21:40 play with their children, who couldn't take their children to school who lost jobs because they just were in so much pain and there was no diagnosis so I'm so glad I did speak about it yeah and thank you for sharing that I think it's so important I mean obviously there's a lot of chronic underfunding for women's health there's a lot of lack of education about this stuff and like we're just hearing about all of these kind of really painful things that women are experiencing now you know I think what's really interesting is the way that you talked about articulating pain I wonder if you could speak a bit more about that because I think sometimes pain and saying that you're in pain can be seen as a sign of weakness but pain is something natural
Starting point is 00:22:18 that the body experiences um can you talk to me about about how you learned to talk about your pain and you what words you you choose when you're expressing it's interesting that you say pain is natural and it's something the body experiences pain is a message isn't it from the body that something's not right so if you are in pain something unnatural is happening um i think that needs to be clear pain physical pain for me yeah i suppose it has been seen like a weakness like if you I started my periods I think I was about 16 and again throwing up uh wrapped around a loo for the first two days throwing up passing out really heavy um bleeding became anemic um have like kind of struggled with that a lot of my life when I've been bleeding. I've taken various
Starting point is 00:23:07 kind of contraceptions to stop it. Talking about your pain, you know, it was less about saying you're in pain than actually saying I'm on my period because that's what people don't understand. People understand if you say you're in pain if you say i have extreme stomach pain or extreme um uterine pain and i can't focus and i think i'm gonna faint it's hard to ignore that but once upon a time and i think let's say now but once upon a time if you said i've got really bad period pain everyone both sexes would be like, periods happen. I remember a friend of mine, and I couldn't quite understand it because I didn't get my period till 16, but once a month, and she was so clever, she'd always get level 8 in her science exam. She was just so bright.
Starting point is 00:23:55 But once a month, every month, she would have to take herself out of class for a week because her period pains were so bad. And she didn't tell me till year 11 and I just was like confounded by this because I um I I mean I barely get up here and my periods are a bit of a joke actually I just like greasy hair because God probably knows what my actual pain thresholds are I don't know but and I also think it is something about society that we're quite flippant with what women's, but when it comes to period pains as well, like young girls who have those hot flushes, who feel sick, who have to take time
Starting point is 00:24:29 off school, it's like, well, you know, you can manage, right? Like you just, just come, just have your day, have your days off and then come back and do everything as you were. Well, we didn't take days off when we were at school. Yeah. And my friend had to, cause it was so crippling. Her mum had to take her out. Yeah. I mean, I started at 16 and I'm the opposite to you really because I started I thought it was late but because I'd heard from none of my friends that periods were bad it was almost like a rite of passage I was like come on come on get your period start you know start puberty um because none of them had said it was bad none of none of them had said it was inconvenient they were just
Starting point is 00:25:05 they were women you know that's that's that was the status of it so when I got it I was like what what's this about my mum hadn't experienced it like I had my younger sister hadn't started her period yet so and I just did I didn't have anyone to talk to I didn't we didn't talk about it and so I literally I would be loaded up with painkillers going to school after throwing up, being cramping, sitting in school, probably take, probably taking too many paracetamol and norepinephrine, ibuprofen, um, to get through it. And, you know, leaving class to have a moment, a dizzy moment, come back in or just sit and clench, you know, I'd kind of kind of, I'd dig my nails into my hand
Starting point is 00:25:47 so the pain was somewhere else. And, you know, but pain is, everyone deals with pain in different ways. Yeah, I started my period at 11 and I remember that exact thing of like, you know, being in a classroom or in a situation and having a cramp and it just being like making you want to bend your body, you know, like you want to like kind of curl up in a fetal position. And when you're like standing or when you're around people, how awkward you are because you're like, your body stiffens,
Starting point is 00:26:12 your body stiffens to protect you in some way. Did you ever get that awful thing, which is part of, I don't know, my history. I remember talking to one friend about it when I was older and I spoke to someone else who has it, where there's this awful thing. It's like a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass. And you literally, you go like that. And you have no idea what's happening.
Starting point is 00:26:38 And that's like something that's common with people with adenomyosis, but also like heavy periods. It must be. I don't know if there's any medical research into that feeling, but I was describing it to someone, she goes, that's exactly it. That's exactly it. And my friend told me it was wind. I also really want to talk to the person who's had a red hot poker up their arse because my God, that is going to be fucking painful.
Starting point is 00:26:59 I doubt they would be able to talk to you. Oh, there's a tab for that. Just saying. But yeah, there's like a pressure point in your bum hole that like is somehow connected to, I'm sure, because I have that sometimes where there's like a little pressure point where it just like feels hot, exactly as you're describing it, really hot. No, it's further up.
Starting point is 00:27:17 It was further up for me. It wasn't my actual bum hole. It was just like further in. It felt like it was further up. Up the bum hole. Yeah. actual bumhole it was just like further in it felt like it was further up up the bumhole yeah you know you're you're a huge you know very high profile bbc presenter you're you know you're very sought after very you know respected how do you do your because i listen to your show like how do
Starting point is 00:27:36 you do your job and go through this incredible amount of pain like how do you wrestle with that and still sound as brilliant as you do as a broadcaster? Well, I'm slightly embarrassed by the compliments, but thank you. Sorry, I'll stop. I'll stop being sycophantic from now. But genuinely, are you in pain now talking to us? How often are you in pain? No, I've, so since being diagnosed, I've had a series of treatments, hormone treatments, which are helping. So I still occasionally bleed and I still get okay I do occasionally get the pain but I haven't had an episode anything like that um night we had to
Starting point is 00:28:12 call the ambulance and um I always carry ibuprofen and paracetamol so you're always popping pills basically I'm not always popping pills these days no no I'm not always always but yeah I mean I'd say I get through a fair few paracetamol and ibuprofen each month and you have to and I guess when you're working as well doing your show and if you're in pain you've just got to grit your teeth
Starting point is 00:28:33 you've got a guest or a contributor in front of you and you're just having to do your interview and that's it yeah well when you're doing the actual job yes if you're in pain you can kind of put you put the job over the pain do you know what I mean but i think also if you're someone i'm i'm 49 so for 33 years i've you know i've been familiar with this pain so you have your strategies to deal with it and
Starting point is 00:29:01 you have you know you know if you're having one of those days and you take the you take the painkillers to to stave off the you know to mask the pain basically you deal with it yeah it's funny i think we all as women like kind of become attuned to the our body's cycle kind of that similar thing what you were saying because i know that i turn into a bitch and then eat loads of chocolate and then get really angry and then i then i have my period and i'm like oh god that's that's why I was being mean and that I can like I almost protect my like forgive myself for being an arsehole to anyone I'm around um you see I don't have that excuse for the whole of my life yeah I'm just an arse well my next question was gonna be how has this has this pain changed you as a as a person like how how do other people your friends
Starting point is 00:29:46 family do you feel that you've got to kind of pain code switch in a way or do you are you very much like i'm in fucking pain fuck off um depending on who you talk to yeah no if i no generally if i'm in pain i'm like i'm in pain just let me be and i'll let the waves of it go, but I will just do whatever I'm doing. I will crack on. I will not. I will, unless I am feeling I've just been sick or whatever, I will not put off whatever I've got to do. I hate being sick.
Starting point is 00:30:16 It's like your whole face turns inside out. It's horrendous. I can't bear it. Oh, yeah, I much prefer it going out the other hole than the mouth hole. I hate being sick. I've got a phobia about being sick. It's horrible. I start streaming and you're just like, make it stop.
Starting point is 00:30:32 And snot and oh, it's horrible. I can't, yeah. I used to throw up a lot when I was drinking. Like drinking too much and throwing up. That's where that's why. At least you're drunk. I'm not quite used to it. It's so true, isn't it?
Starting point is 00:30:44 At least you wasted. It's just like double yeah that's so true isn't it at least you wasted it's just like double punishment yeah it's double oh yeah um no and I'm very lucky actually I didn't have any PMS the only thing I have before my period is I'm exhausted I have that do you ever get 24 hours before I start my period um which I don't really have anymore because of the contraception I'm taking and the pills I'm taking I just have this exhaustion where I will fall asleep and I it's like you have to be dragged like I've been drugged you have to be dragged out of your sleep and I it always surprises me and then I like come on the next day and I'm like oh yeah why didn't you realize but I suppose because it's so irregular it's so irregular now that I wouldn't do that but no pain no it's no one else's fault I'm in pain it is someone else's fault they want to be a dick to me
Starting point is 00:31:29 but um no one is so no I don't I don't change the things that you were saying about talking about being on your period like that's really interesting because we don't often in work environments be like I'm on my period you would never say that in like a meeting full of people you know we're kind of you kind of it is still something you hide something you do discreetly even if you like run out of tampons or need a pad yeah you'll discreetly I did that I did that the other day I was in a massive I was on a production I was in a massive whatsapp group with pretty much about 30 people and me being me you'd think I'd be like I don't need tamp like I'm quite generally quite outspoken and I don't care. But in that moment, I was like, felt a bit shy and then like DM'd four people separately
Starting point is 00:32:07 and they were like, why didn't you just put it in the group? And I was like, I don't know. Don't want everyone to know you're in your group. Do you remember like passing sanitary towels to girls at school under the sleeve of your jumper? It was like such a secret thing. But sometimes I wish my colleagues did know that actually I'm on my period.
Starting point is 00:32:21 So that's why I might be a bit slower, angrier, sweatier, whatever their perceptions of me. It's like I can just explain I'm going through a. So that's why I might be a bit slower, angrier, sweatier, whatever their perceptions of me. It's like I can just explain I'm going through a hormonal shift at the moment. I think that's really sad, your experiences, because I've had loads of people at work say, have you got any tampons or, you know, quite openly. I think it's changing. Yeah, in our makeup room, you know, we've got tampons
Starting point is 00:32:43 and most of the women know that they're there. Also, I go to loads of buildings where there are tampons and sanitary towels there. I feel like that's been an explosion in the last five, eight years. Yes, good. Tampons, which is great. But I suppose coming from South Asian backgrounds, when we had a period in the household, and I'm one of six, right, five girls, you were silent. You didn't talk about it.
Starting point is 00:33:09 No one was meant to know you were on your period. Everything was done in sort of secrecy, so I suppose I still carry some of that around. But I mean, I wouldn't say that you or me are like, oh God, we've got to not tell anyone. I suppose it's just a habit, isn't it? Like women are having to do everything in secret and just kind of bear the brunt of things.
Starting point is 00:33:26 I still think it's an issue though. I mean, yes, there are tampons and sanitary towels in public spaces now, and we're all a bit more aware that this is something that women go through and that some circumstances you can talk about it publicly. But I say the average woman in Britain, in her work environment,
Starting point is 00:33:39 couldn't go into the office and be like, I'm on my period, by the way, to her colleagues. Because I certainly couldn't. Yeah, I agree with you actually. I do think about this carefully. And I think if a woman is on her period, and it's not affecting the quality of her life, then she has no reason to say, I'm on my period. If it is affecting her mental health, her physical health, then I would hope and affecting, potentially affecting her job or her ability to do her job or her quality of life. I would hope that she would be able to have a conversation in this day and age. I guess I just think that
Starting point is 00:34:17 it's always affecting your life, whether it's extreme or not. It's like a change to your day to day, right? So that does have an impact on how you exist. You have to go to the bathroom or you have to spend a bit more money. You have to, you know, whatever side effects you have of your period. Is there anything about your period that you enjoy? No. I'm on my period right now. There's nothing you enjoy? See, because I get quite frisky around my period. Oh, you get hornier? Oh, yeah, massively.
Starting point is 00:34:41 Oh, right. Okay. And I do quite enjoy, this might sound a bit gross, but I'm just going to put it out there. I do quite enjoy this might sound a bit gross but I'm just gonna put it out there I do quite enjoy seeing a toilet bowl full of blood because I'm like I'm like I feel great that that's gone out of my body it feels it's like a weird I know what you mean yeah well I think it's amazing that so many that you've spoken public about so many women have been able to like reach out to you and say i'm the same this is you're speaking my narrative like that's so powerful well it wasn't on the nhs england website um it wasn't it wasn't a page for adenomyosis and the only there was one word there was one mention of it
Starting point is 00:35:15 and it linked to hysterectomy it was on the nhs scotland website so the reason that mattered and we got that changed because of the noise we all made that it changed but the reason that matters is and it goes back to whether if adenomyosis is affecting your everyday life if you went to your boss and said I have adenomyosis and this is causing me problems pain debilitating quality of life concentration anything they'd go to the website and just see go and get hysterectomy. They'd see nothing of the symptoms of the treatment or anything. So then they themselves can't do anything because they can't then say, okay, we know we need to do this. We know we
Starting point is 00:35:57 need to consider this. So that was why it was so important, I think, and is so important that these conditions are recognised so that people, everyone can be educated, if I'm honest, I think my parents grin and bore it. Like, I think when they were sick, they kind of just cracked on. And I was just thinking, as you were speaking, how did my parents talk to me about their pain if they were feeling any physical pain? And I remember my dad having back pain and me as a toddler or like a young person walking on his back as he lay on the floor to kind of help him alleviate it. And I remember how he talked about pain, but it was like, it was just a small thing. It was fine. And this thing that I would do would help it and nothing to worry about, nothing to worry about. Do you feel like that in South Asian cultures and our mix of the British influence of that, we are a little bit like... Grin and bear it. Get on with it.
Starting point is 00:37:06 I think busy people, particularly women, have to grin and bear it. I don't know if it's a cultural thing because I have friends from all cultures. I know, you know, I would be told, oh, you've been very brave or be brave, you'll be fine. It's got nothing to do with being brave um being brave is actually calling it out and fixing it or getting you know getting a
Starting point is 00:37:31 solution to it but i think yes it you know there's that whole stiff upper lip i think people bear pain out of necessity so it can be a socio-economic thing can be literally, if I do not crack on with work, I don't feed my family, male or female. I think bear pain for as long as you need to. And I think the word need, the necessity is what's important there. And that may well go back to South Asian cultures where my parents, for example, were immigrants, came here in the 70s, couldn't afford to be seen as weak or non-contributory to this economy, not to work hard, work two jobs, three jobs. It wasn't in their toolbox to be able to say, no, I can't cope. They just did. And they had children and wanted to bring their children up to the best of their ability and give them everything that they had dreamt of for them that they felt they didn't have. And I don't think that is exclusive to South Asian cultures. I think, you know, that is a mindset. I think you bear pain as long as you need to, if you haven't been offered relief. I love that thing you said just that now about they didn't have the toolbox.
Starting point is 00:38:45 Because I've been thinking about that so much recently, like having the tools to be able to address things and how like you have those conversations with your parents when you're like, they don't have the tools. He's never had the tools to talk to me in the way. I just, that's really interesting. I have a child, so I'm often thinking about what I'm putting in my kid's toolbox. I think that's really important because I think it's really easy
Starting point is 00:39:04 for any child of any culture, but maybe know I'm South Asian culture South Asian heritage um I think it's really easy to blame them for not talking to you to blame them for not communicating with you well or to blame them for not accept accepting you were different or you wanted to speak up when they were uncomfortable about you speaking up they didn't speak up when they weren't comfortable about you speaking up. They didn't have the tools. They didn't do that. And we're in a world where you can listen to Five Live and hear a woman talk about how she bleeds. And there are different platforms now and we call crap out, which wasn't necessarily done. It wasn't done in that way when my parents were younger. And so they didn't see it. So they couldn't even have
Starting point is 00:39:46 an opinion on it. You know, then our world was so small in terms of media and what you were told. We had like three channels, three TV channels. We didn't have the internet, you know. It's really easy. And the older I get, the kind of perhaps more understanding I become of that. Yeah. I'm exactly the same. I spent most of my 20s being so angry at my parents and now in my late 30s, if both sides show patience and kindness, you'd probably, you know, get far, but they're still angry.
Starting point is 00:40:16 They're still in the anger phase. That's part of being in your 20s as well. Part of the joy of your 20s is anger. Yeah. And rage. Although I do have some residual anger. It never goes. It never goes, does it?
Starting point is 00:40:26 Well, I mean, thank you so much for always speaking and for speaking so loudly. Your contribution to, yeah, the media landscape and to like all other brown girls
Starting point is 00:40:34 has been so valuable. We respect you so much and thank you so much for coming on Brown Girls Do It Too. It's been a joy. And now it's time for your shagging aunties so we've got a relevant listener dilemma this week except this is about the kinkier side of pain dear poppy and rabina firstly i'd like to say a huge huge thank you for putting yourselves out there and making such a phenomenal podcast as a brown
Starting point is 00:41:02 girl i feel there's so much shame in our communities attached to sex and sexuality, and your work feels really liberating and inspiring. Secondly, here's my issue, which I'd like some advice on. I'm quite submissive sexually and enjoy a power dynamic, particularly with male partners. I like the idea of wearing a collar and my partner having control over me. However, when I'm with white men, this sometimes brings up an uncomfortable feeling or sense of shame that I'm perpetuating oppressive and racist tropes, particularly if I'm in a public space, e.g. at a kink event. Do you have any thoughts or advice on this issue? Can I still claim to be an anti-racist feminist if I seek out this type of sexual play? I mean, we touched on this in that very first episode of Brown Girls Do It Too, where do you remember you, me and Roya were talking about, do we like being fetishised? And you guys were like, no.
Starting point is 00:41:47 And I was like, well, I actually don't mind. I quite enjoy it. I think that you can absolutely enjoy this sort of sexual play. Well, we can enjoy it and you can still be an anti-racist feminist. Come on to me, British Raj.
Starting point is 00:42:06 Would you like some chai? Why don't I bend down and make it for you? Would you like some masala in that? Yeah, look, I think it's totally fine. Yeah, of course. Because like... Put your cock in my mouth as I stir this clover. I think it's fine.
Starting point is 00:42:21 You're not responsible to take on, you know, your heritage's history. Like, it's definitely not. And it's not on you that responsibility should be. And what you do to circumvent, because if the white mandem is after, you know, choking you and doing whatever, what you like, whatever kinks you like, thinks he's a fucking bee's knees. It's the conversations you have pre and post and maybe even during that puts everyone in check. Basically, your sex life bleeds into your real life, right? So if you're allowed to talk to your partner who's South Asian in the bedroom in a particular way that she likes, where she's a sub, you can't let that bleed into your real life because she ain't about that. So it's about constantly checking the language, reminding them that this is, say, in the confines of the bedroom.
Starting point is 00:43:05 I love that you're asking the question, but you're only asking it because you're a sub. If you were a dom. Yeah, no, this would not. You would never be asking this. You would never because, you know, still being a dom is you're doing an inequality. You're saying like, I'm the more important person here. You're also saying that it's anti-feminist to be a dom. So you're saying he's anti-feminist.
Starting point is 00:43:20 Like, of course, you can be anti-ist yeah and a feminist and enjoy the fantasy absolutely of playing with power in the bedroom it's a fantasy fantasy yeah and it's totally up to you where you draw the boundaries of what you enjoy by that the the like racist colonial like sex play thing like that's hilarious yes jokes and that can be quite fun would you do it would you do it in the boudoir well i mean it's not something it's not something that would get me going, though. My partner's not, like, straight British, so it's, like, hard for me to, like, really delve into that fantasy. I mean, Spanish conquistador now.
Starting point is 00:43:52 That could be an interesting thing. I never really thought about that. If a guy was, and I love dirty talks, right? So if a guy was in my ear saying all the right things about you being a Bengali, I don't know, chaiwala. They're mostly male, aren't they, chaiwalas? But, like, a Bengali maid. I mean, what don't know, chaiwala. They're mostly male, aren't they, chaiwalas? But like a Bengali maid. I mean, what?
Starting point is 00:44:08 What? A chaiwala? You don't want to fuck a chaiwala? No, no, no. No, you might want to fuck a chaiwala. No, but she's making the tea. Oh, right. But I think chaiwalas...
Starting point is 00:44:15 You're the chaiwala. No, no, exactly. But I think chaiwalas are mostly... Oh, you're more of like a tuk-tuk driver. No, no, no. I don't know where you're going with this. Most of these labour jobs, men tend to do them. So chaiwalas, men.
Starting point is 00:44:24 So I'd be like the Bengali maid. I think I'd be fine. But I do do it anyway chaiwala's men So I'd be like The Bengali maid I think I'd be fine But I do do it anyway I'm a sub So I'm so into that But I think it is interesting I've met more women
Starting point is 00:44:32 Who are interested in Being subs than doms Exactly And so sometimes I do think like Actually are we all A bit anti-feminist In the bedroom room
Starting point is 00:44:39 Do we all kind of enjoy No but it's not that we're Anti-feminist We enjoy power play We enjoy messing with power Yeah I don't think It's anti-feminist. I think it's just you,
Starting point is 00:44:46 if you are alpha or you're quite forthright or you're quite outgoing in your day-to-day life, in the workspace, with your family, you want to enjoy being something else
Starting point is 00:44:55 because sex is escapism. It's a fantasy. Yeah, and I wouldn't worry about the public space thing. Isn't that always interesting? Because I do think that if you're in a mixed race partnership, you do sometimes look at other people
Starting point is 00:45:05 looking at you like when I'm with my partner who is white and I see like an Asian couple I like feel their eyes on me do they
Starting point is 00:45:13 they don't give a shit they're not even looking at me they're too busy looking at each other but you think you think they're looking at you and that they're projecting something onto you
Starting point is 00:45:20 and that's what I would say no one probably cares about your kink event they're just trying to get off and they probably and actually at a kink event they are just probably trying to get off but like again it's the way you carry yourself at the kink event right yeah maybe during the actual sex act and the deed you are sub but how you talk to people how you surround yourself you talk about
Starting point is 00:45:39 what you want and how you like it that's very telling of the kind of person you are and your character so enjoy yourself enjoy it enjoy it thanks for listening to this episode and if you have any thoughts questions conundrums quandaries issues puzzles puzzles crosswords i don't think so but if you have any thoughts or questions you can email us at brown girls do itoo at bbc.co.uk. Or you can send us a WhatsApp or voice note to 0796810822.

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