Brown Girls Do It Too - Ash Sarkar and Salvador Dali Sex Face

Episode Date: December 11, 2020

Poppy and Rubina talk about taking nudes and filming yourself having sex, something that Rubina has done in the past. They are joined by journalist, writer and commentator Ash Sarkar who talks about how Social Media can influence you in the decisions you make about what you record with your phone. She goes on to talk about how, as a millennial with a smart phone, nudes are something she's sent herself and how she combats the danger of ever being outed for past behaviour.

BBC Sounds music, radio, podcasts you're about to listen to Brown Girls Do It Too, it's a podcast about sex, so expect to hear adult conversations and some very strong language do feel free to check out other podcasts

on BBC Sounds, but if you're old enough brave enough and not easily offended, give it a go Brown Girls Do It Too from the BBC Asian Network Hi everybody And not easily offended. Give it a go. Brown Girls Do It Too. Yeah. From the BBC Asian Network. Hi, everybody. You are listening to Brown Girls Do It Too. Thank you so much for downloading this podcast.

Make sure you subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. So she's Rabina. She's the Indian one. And she's Poppy. And she's the Bengali one. And we're Brown Girls Do It Too! You can listen back to any of our episodes in no particular order, but if you want to check out Series 1 first to get that brown flavour in your mouth,

then please do check us out on BBC Sounds. Our vibe is 110% unadulterated filth. Joking slash not joking. So if I could characterise this podcast in 140 characters, it's this. We are brown women talking about sex. The good, the bad and the fucking awkward. We have no shame. So there is literally no point in shaming us.

This podcast is for all those brown British women. Our time is now, ladies. We would love for you to join in the chat by using the hashtag browngirlsdoit2. This podcast is for all those brown British women. Our time is now, ladies. Whoop, whoop, whoop. We would love for you to join in the chat by using the hashtag browngirlsdoit2. Or you can email us on our very professional email now, which is browngirlsdoit2 at bbc.co.uk. And you can also tweet us at BBC Asian Network or at BBC Sounds. But do remember to use the hashtag, hashtag browngirlsdoit2. So, Robina, how have you been?

so guess what happened to me last night what happened? I had a wank and it just died like it died midway through wanking I was like

was that it? is that what I'm going to get out of it? have you had one of those? yeah yeah I know what it is I call it half an orgasm it's like when you don't fully come you just like

it's like a half I don't even know if I could describe it as an orgasm it was like a oh wow but did you feel if I could describe it as an orgasm it was like a oh wow but did you feel something was there something there no it happened

for sure oh so it's like so you peaked at 25% exactly maybe like 4% it was okay so that so babe

that's not a wank then is it I think let's is that just how you feel all the time let's establish some ground rules here so an orgasm say you're peaking at 100%.

So half an orgasm, a dead wank, I'd probably put it at 50 and less. I think I came too soon. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 100% happened to me. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You came too soon. I dedicated at least 20 minutes for this session. Oh, I feel like you were rubbed, actually.

Exactly. I'm going to give myself some proper time tonight. Have a bath, take it seriously, look after myself. How long does your... I like to give it 20 minutes. I'm over in three. But you just go straight in there. I like to arouse the areas around it.

Oh, you do love that. You know, I had a bath yesterday. I tried to wank in the bath. And I was like, oh, I'm bothered. I'd rather just soak. I'd rather just soak. I did think about you,. And I was like, oh, I'm bothered. I'd rather just soak. I'd rather just soak. I did think about you though. I was like,

What? Oh my God. No, no, no. As in, I tried to adopt your technique. Oh, like really? I tried to go around the area and then I think

the medium of water was sort of ruining it. So I stopped. Good chat. think the medium of water was sort of ruining it so i stopped yeah good chat so moving on in this week's episode we're discussing the idea of taking and sending nudes and making sex tapes too and we'll be talking about how that translates to what we put out on our social media we'll be joined by journalist ash sarkar a little later too she is someone who's had a massive social media presence and'll be joined by journalist Ash Sarkar a little later too. She is someone who's had a massive social media presence and has had to ask for certain pictures of herself

to be taken down from hate porn sites. So Rubina, where do we start? Where do we start? Well, we should start like where sex on social media really started, which in my mind is sex tapes. This is our sex tape. Do you not think this is our sex tape? This is definitely our sex tape.

I'm 100% cool. I think we should rename this as this is our sex tape. This is the equivalent of like Kimmy K's sex tape, Paris Hilton's sex tape. Any other famous people that like made their name? Because Kim Kardashian got famous from that sex tape. Because of her Ray J sex tape. Because of her Ray J sex tape, yeah.

So I think Brown Girls Do It Too podcast is the equivalent of the sex tape of the early noughties, maybe? They can't even call it a sex tape anymore, though, because we're not recording on tape. I know, I know. The sex MP3. Sex on mini-discs. So have you ever made a sex tape, be honest? No.

So you're not interested in recording yourself when you're... No, no. be honest no so you're not interested in recording yourself when you're no no the closest I'll come to is I've got a mirror that I've strategically put in the bedroom so that when I'm having sex I can see myself having sex because that turns me on

and that's the closest I'll ever get to seeing myself but that's in real time and that's not recorded but I've never ever done a sex tape have you done a sex tape you little minx

I've done it I've done like video you're such a little ninja. Looking like house on the prairie outfit. I think I give it all the chat and I'm boring. Go on then. I mean, I've used the phone during sex.

Yes. What have you done? What have you recorded? Recorded what it could look like from the bedside table. I haven't been holding it. Oh, so you find a position. I've placed it, recorded, pressed record. Okay, so this is really important. Are you getting just vagina on dick? table like I haven't been holding it oh so you you like find a position recorded press record okay so this is really important are you getting just um vagina on dick or you like me underneath

him on top uh and it was like at a distance I mean I didn't really think it through I was just like wouldn't it be fun to do do this one time very early on with a boyfriend did you give him the copy of that video no no it was mine I made it 100%'s different. And I think if I was sleeping with somebody and they said, oh, can I film this? I'd be like, sure, where's the lighting? What's going on here? Oh my God, you would. I think I probably would.

I would 100% never do that in a million years. Not even with my current partner would I do that. Really? Yes. Why? Because the Muslim in me is like, this is going to go to your dad, yeah? Some cousin is going to get this and be like, I'm fucking showing this to your dad yeah some cousin is going

to get this and be like I'm fucking showing this to your dad so I absolutely know I think I mean I have that fear as well

it's not like I don't have it I think I would just be like it's not me it's not me I'd be like deny deny deny so you'll go to Denialville but what if you can see your face

I'd be like that's not me there is amazing stuff you can do with technology and somebody has done some deep technology and that is not me you would 100% deny I wouldn't deny myself I want to I wanted to see what like having sex with somebody there was no mirror I wanted to record it and see what it was like so I did it mate I don't even send nudes like when I take nudes no you take

nudes poppy no poppy you take nudes Rubina Fabani nudes. Rubina Fabani, I'm fucking telling you right now. If I'm taking... Yeah, you do take pictures of yourself naked, don't lie. Not at all. Every single person in the world does it. Listen to me. Listen to me. I don't, okay?

Because if I take a... The only time I'm taking a photo of myself is to look at my thighs. So when you're naked? I've got pants on. I've got knickers on. Seriously? Yeah. You've never taken a photo of yourself naked? I haven't. I've taken a photo of myself naked with pants on i've got knickers on seriously and you've never taken a photo of yourself naked i

haven't i've taken a photo of myself naked with pants on but i delete the photo immediately and then i delete it in the deleted folder have you not read the hack have you ever taken a photo of your partner naked like they've been naked i've taken a photo from behind not from the front no what all the good stuff's at the front i know no but I'm just like no I'm so scared of like I think I'm so private and yeah I'm doing sex tapes I'm really really private and I and I just I just think if someone has access to these photos if someone can get these videos and then you read all these stories about revenge porn and then coupled with the fact that I'm Muslim and then coupled with the fact that I live Muslim and then coupled with the fact that I've lived off this culture

of constantly being threatened by male and female members of the family and seeing that in my... And it could be so innocent, like, oh, we saw you hanging out in Stepney, fully clothed, obviously, eating chicken and chips. Like, that is how hard it was. So I was just like, there was no way I was going to go anywhere near nude. I guess my theory about it all is that you are, well,

my theory is definitely you're in a young once, but also you will have this one body and I feel like having some love for that body and being like, occasionally, when you are happy with your body, you have days when you're not, of course. I do too, like everybody else. But when you are happy with your body, it's kind of nice to capture that moment

because you're like, I'm feeling sexy. And I think that's what a lot of selfies and Instagram and like kind of putting yourself out there on social media is about. It's like capturing the times that you feel good. I really want to get into that. But like I've got like so many mental blocks around it. And I think just so many negative, not personal experiences because I've never sent news before. But like I see stuff happening and I see the kind of the way it can be used to shame women. Women are not at that position now where if a guy shames her,

she can be like, well, you know what? Go ahead and show my dad. See if I give a shit. I don't think we're there yet because it's still used as a currency, as a tool to shame us and dishonour us. So I just don't go anywhere near it.

So if you did make a sex tape, like a proper sex tape, not this podcast, what would you think should be in it? So if I did make a sex tape, I would make sure I had a really good lens. Like a prime lens. So you'd get like a tripod and a camera. You'd do like a proper film.

Do you know what? That's probably a bit more secure. Yeah, absolutely. Totally. So I'd get like a proper camera. SD card. SD card. Make sure it's got a locket.

And password protected always. Good lighting. Maybe film it during sure it's got locket. Password protected always. Good lighting. Maybe film it during the golden hour, like sunset. It just sounds like you're shooting a porno though. Yes. So if I were to do a sex tape, I'd shoot a porno. Would you do a whole scene leading up to the sex then? Oh, I'm all about the fantasy.

So like it would just not be the act. I wouldn't just be filming the act of having sex like it would be the lead up and it would be like so I'd have to think of a narrative oh my god it would be like a Bollywood film

like right at the moment that you're taking off the clothes the camera goes whoop yeah there you go it always I mean like a bit of a nipple

or a side boob yeah narrative is key yeah and good lens and good lighting I guess I think like everyone's obsessed with making themselves look good on social media

and actually sex doesn't always look good. And that's the truth. And that's the truth. But I think this is the problem. I think the moment we get into like, oh, let's film myself having sex. You're always going to be unhappy with it. You're unhappy with it. And then it gets very performative.

And I think we're already performative in real life when we aren't being filmed. Like social media does remove like authenticity within relationships because people are like, oh, we're hanging out. We never hang out. We're posting this thing or we're together or whatever. It's like it's kind of a fake veneer of what's really happening. Totally. You always project an image of yourself in social media that is partly authentic, but mostly not. I think as women as well, we're just so exposed to all the pitfalls of sex on social media, aren't we? Like your revenge porn, your sexting, someone screen grabs you like sending dirty messages and then it goes to an email chain with your work colleagues like they're just I think my outlook is pretty bleak actually but there's like so many

ways to trap you so I just stay away from it I just I think I really noticed recently actually that my Instagram the people that I follow my Instagram feed is just like all of these like cool hot brown models musicians like females because I'm just trying to like see people that I can relate to on my feed because I was just coming from a place where it would just be like people I didn't recognise in myself. But I think I do that because I'm conscious

of comparing myself to other white women on Instagram and not meeting their standard. But it still happens if you follow brown women. Yeah, no, completely, because they fall under the same pitfalls, right? Where I think I do have a problem is um how i think sexed up instagram is and even when i'm uh so obviously you know we're now broadcasters um i've got like a professional account on the gram and like even when i'm posting selfies i just i constantly look like i'm at different stages of giving a blow job

like it and it makes me feel uncomfortable but i I'm like, that's what I see. And that's the norm. And that's what you have to do. And that's what you have to do. So that's what I do. And obviously I could post fugly photos or I could be goofy and I could have fun with it. And I should. But I do feel definitely on the gram.

And I think a lot of my peers do, quite trapped in how you project yourself. Yeah. So I actually think, oddly, making a sex tape, or their equivalent, the 21st century sex tape, is probably a safer bet and probably healthier for you than the shit that you see on Instagram and the shit that you post. Yeah, true.

Because that is constant and everyday, whereas the sex tape, the sex video, it's hopefully private. It's between you and your partner. You know, it's not going to be shared.

No one's going to hack that, you hope. Whereas I think with Instagram, for me, it's a constant reminder of like, you don't look this way. I couldn't even think

about putting up a nude because I'm like, I don't look like the way I should look like. Yeah, yeah. And like the sexy body type, the social media trend of us all having big tits, big ass, tiny waist. Like, I'm never going to look like that.

And like, there has to be a point in your life where you're like, I don't look like that. And that's, and I won't look like that. But what I do have is something that I should appreciate. Yeah, totally. That's why I think you should take a picture of yourself naked. Because that is the moment where you're like, cool, it's looking all right. I'm happy with it. And if you send it to cool, it's looking all right. I'm happy with it. And if you send it to someone, it's the most badass thing you can do.

Because imagine loving yourself that much that you're like, love me. I'm fucking boss. That's sexy. That is actually quite... I'm going to send you a naked picture of me. No, I don't think I can do that. I chickened out immediately. You see what I mean?

But this is a good test for me, actually, Rubina. Because if I... So, like, you want me to take a naked photo of myself and send it to my partner? Yes, that's it. And, like, you know what? What if he uses that against me? No, because you could just...

Like, he's your partner and you trust him. See, I don't trust him. Send it to him. Send it to him. He shows it. Then you go into his phone. Deleted, deleted, deleted. Okay?

You know the system. I'll do that. I'll do that. I think it's just powerful to do it, to own of that back because you know you're right women's images are being ripped all over the shop and like you know putting on porn sites and all that stuff but you should try and own some of it back and be like what if i did it for myself only if you want to you know no i'm not pressurizing no no you're not pressurizing me at all and i think actually that is a good shout and i need to i need to do it to see how i feel right because i can do it and be

like oh my god this is awful this is not me it's not my bag I'm not doing that again or you might see a whole tab of Poppy's bits in the near future

you know time will tell you can DM thank you for setting me that wonderful little task I will do it coming up next journalist and political

commentator Ash Sarkar who takes a lot of stick on social media about her politics, but also about her body and brownness too. Despite that, she's happy to put out the occasional thirst trap too. Somebody was even wearing a t-shirt

with your face on it and I couldn't eat. You couldn't eat? Hi, Louis Theroux here. I've spent my whole working life trying to find people with interesting stories. It's taken me from high security jails to South African hunting grounds to Las Vegas casinos. But there are still loads of people I've always wanted to talk to. So I've tracked a few of them down for a second series of my podcast, Grounded with Louis Theroux.

I'll chat to Sia, Rylan, Michaela Cole and more, peeling back the layers to find out who they really are. I just became a little bit obsessed with it. Grounded with Louis Theroux. Subscribe on BBC Sounds. Brown Girls Do It Too. Our guest today is journalist, writer, political activist and all round badass, Ash Sarkar. Hi, welcome. Welcome to Brown Girls Do It Too. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you for having me. We're so happy to have you on. And you know what, what's really special

about you and why we got you on is because we don't see many brown people, brown women, especially killing it. And for you to be so bold the way that you are on Twitter, you're amazing. How do you muster up the energy to kind of get out there and be on social media, actively on social media every day? No, the thing about social media on the one hand i'm like okay well this is like a real rush and i like the fact that i can communicate with people and you know it forces you to be really concise and brief with how you put your ideas across but at the same time i'm like oh this is doing permanent damage to my brain this can't this can't be good the shit that you get is just exhausting looking at it rubina was

saying it's so empowering how you do call people out but i guess you've got to pick and choose your battles right i mean definitely i mean people always say that the way to deal with abuse is that you don't respond to any of it but i just can't do that the reason why i can't do that is because when you went to an all-girls school you're like oh i am trained in paring this is like black belt sas paring i just it goes so against my nature to let anyone else get the last word even if they're just some like butt account who might not even be a real person i'm like i'm gonna show you mr troll farm that i went to enfield county and i'm about to like hand your ass to you um but yeah it's compulsive i think it's definitely compulsive i'm not saying any of this is healthy that's what i'm trying to say

is that i wouldn't advise anyone to do it we do that every time every five seconds we give out a warning saying don't listen to us ladies not like that we obviously talk about sex we're quite graphic and we have had a little taste of maybe something that you feel every day, which is like a little bit of attention. And, you know, some of it has been like, what, why are you DMing me some weird shit or sending me a dick pic or like threatening me? There's three stages, right? There's the kind of, I hate you, but...

That's how they send you DMs, spouting some shit, well, some great Bollywood tracks, I have to say. And then there's a kind of you're a slut your mum's a slut and then it's like that's funny and then the third one is when you get it from women

which I think is a little bit more like sears the soul a bit but I'm just going to go for the jugular here okay so like sex on social media is it good for us is it liberating or is it constraining

because I'm just looking at my Instagram feed I've got two one private and one the professional one and like I look at all my selfies? Because I'm just looking at my Instagram feed. I've got two. One private and one, the professional one. And I look at all my selfies, Ash, and I'm like, just given a blowjob. About to give a blowjob.

Gave a really bad blowjob. Every selfie I do is totally influenced, really, by what I see on social media. And it's constantly, I have to, you have to put on that sex face. Your sex face is just camera high, pal. Yeah, that's my sex face. But my real sex face is probably like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a, you know, like a Salvador Dali, like melting face.

That's exactly what my sex face is. Imagine if people actually posted, like, proper sex faces as, like... So where my, in my bedroom, where the mirror is, I've strategically put it there so I could watch myself having sex. So you can see yourself have sex, yeah. And when I'm looking at myself, I catch my face, and it's got the Salvador Dali Bengali sex face, which is funny as fuck. I think that, like like this has an impact on the social media discussion which is what happens when like

a little bit of self-awareness creeps in like and you're suddenly like what oh my god i'm doing this completely ridiculous repetitive motion and what is my face doing and am i squinting like and it's also because you are not used to looking at yourself in an unguarded way what social media allows you to do is curate almost like a gallery of yourself in ways which are staged and which are posed and it's hard to catch yourself off guard and you're surrounded by these images of yourself so then when you're like actually like doing the deed and you are unguarded and you're unguarded for all sorts of reasons you're unguarded because like there's an inerrant comedy to sex and you can enjoy that with somebody else or you're unguarded because you're like i am doing this for all the

wrong reasons like um and then you you catch sight of yourself and you're like oh hang on there is a a divergence here between what i expected to see because of how I've trained myself to look at myself and what I have seen. And I think that that's like, that is something new from being such a, I wouldn't even say it's just social media. It's that we are like a visually saturated culture. Like we live in an images economy.

The really interesting thing about like how you, the whole idea of like how you look at yourself, it's also like, and present yourself to your partner in the bedroom, but I don't know if you've ever sent any nudes and ever sent any scandalised images of yourself to turn someone else on, because when I have done

that in the past, it's been completely false. What have you sent? Tits. And what angle do you take them from? Side. Oh, a bit of side boob? Is it? I'd go for the, a bit of side boob. Yeah. Is it? Yeah. I'd go for the big risk. Underneath and diagonal.

Low angle is not the one. Not for the nudes. Pre-fame, did you send nudes? Oh, listen, look, I'm a millennial with a camera phone. What do you think? I mean, obviously I've done these things. And it's because, you know know we grew up when the internet was growing up right we grew up with these technologies maturing and of course like every other generation that's existed in the history of humanity we use these technologies for sex every single time there's

been a new technological development humans have used it for sex it's incredible to see from like medieval times when people were like drawing like erotic marginalia to the development of the film camera right porn was invented at the same time so obviously i use these things because these technologies are being invented right at the time i'm like hello i'm on the hormonal carousel obviously obviously you know, I use them, you know, pre-fame and also post-fame. Good for you. I'm glad that's still going for you.

Cause I was thinking Ash is a woman who probably has stopped doing that because of leaks or anyone hacking into your stuff. But I'm glad you're still in the game. Well, you know what? Like I've, I've made it my business to tell my mom every bad thing I've ever done. Right.

Because I was just like, I was like, I was like, I don't want you to find out what i've been up to from the daily mail or the sun or something else i don't i don't want that and as long as because me and my mom have got like just the most we're really really tight we're really really close and we've always been able to be really honest with each other because i've got that down and i'm like okay right you know that at some point you might see my tits because someone has leaked something you're not going to find that out from anybody else but me i love that and then it means that the power of it is taken away you know my grandma was like well if these technologies were available to me when i was your age maybe that sounds like a legend yeah

my grandma is a fucking cheat like i used to when i was a teenager and i either got too drunk or ever to come home i'd like go to my grandma's because i was just like oh okay i can't hack mommy oh my god she's so cool and so she'd be there and she's like got her cigarette in one hand and her whiskey in the other and then she'd be like should i tell you about the time i had an affair i'm like i'm not sure if i want this information i'm not sure oh my god does she talk to you like did it was there sex like a conversation that you were able to have then with your grandmother and mother like in that three three line or not really growing up no not with my grandma but with my mom because she

also works in child protection right she works in child protection she's a social worker and she always wanted to be able to protect us through telling us what was out there as well so it was a conversation about sex maybe there wasn't such an emphasis on things like, you know, pleasure and blah, blah, because my mom is seeing the worst of the abuses out there. But she knew that in order to like keep us safe from what was out there, you couldn't do it by not by saying that sex is dirty. Sex is wrong.

You shouldn't have it abstinence only. So there was definitely an open channel of communication, but there was an emphasis on safety because she was like, I've seen what men are like i don't want you to go anywhere near it she was very disappointed when i came out as straight um my mom was very disappointed she was like not even a little bit your your both your families sound really cool i mean mama p here rubina's mom what does she what's her advice to you about my mom's trying to give me advice about social media but obviously she doesn't she's not

she's not on it i mean she's on facebook obviously a lot of old indian people are on facebook but um she she does try to like advise a little bit around sending uh you know news so i did have a conversation with her about that and she was like okay better i've thought it through and i think it's better if you do it but you always take your head out of the picture frame she was like you hold the camera like this and you cut your head out and I was like actually I like mum that's actually really smart that's advice I could take because then if it did go anywhere I'd be like not me you you and I you and I are two worlds apart because last week my mum was like why aren't you wearing a headscarf I'm like oh babes if you only knew if you only knew I'm doing a sex podcast i mean honestly like i have the kind of mother

that's like mate and father that made me wear a salwa kameez to chesington world of adventures see you know what like it's like my family is half so it's like various mixes going on i'm muslim my mom's muslim my mom married and subsequently divorced my dad who was a hindu and she's now with my stepdad who's a church of england raised atheist he's kind of like eeyore like he just sort of looks like eeyore um and me and him are really close as well but i was associated being muslim with the side of my family which was like very progressive on issues around sexuality you know gay rights women's rights and it was my mom's experience of my father's side of the family that hindu side of the family which was way more like restrictive and patriarchal

so it wasn't really until i started chatting with other girls who were from bengali backgrounds and muslim backgrounds that i realized that there was this completely other experience of how you were raised to deal with sexuality i was just like oh no i thought muslims we were the fun ones no well i mean i look i can't talk i can't speak for all muslims i'm talking about this this is why we have this thing about muslim identity it's so complicated we're not i'm also muslim grew up as an ismaili like very different culture i think like where we all draw the line is like do you call your mom by her first name no no no that's the line if i want a slipper in my face maybe like geez ash do you receive a lot of nudes i've i have i have solicited thirst traps from guys i've definitely been like you know what if i have set up because also if i'm

gonna do it like i set up the lighting you know i've got my ring light i've got my like like the camera which i use mostly for like navara media and i'm like i'm just the lighting you know i've got my ring light i've got my like like the camera which i use mostly for like navara media and i'm like i'm just going to repurpose this that's effort you know i i you know if i think about my day right that's a lot of money i mean just in terms of time so i want something something in return so i have solicited thirst traps not so much the dick pic because i kind of feel on its own it looks like a kind of deep sea creature which is like evolved to survive in the like mariana trench like that's not something that i like to look at it's not something which makes me go oh that's

exciting i want like you know the whole man with the face and the upper body. Have you sent like your vagina? Either of you? No, no, no, no. And the reason why I haven't is because, you know, that's between me, the Duchess, and, you know, my gynecologist every five years who has to go for a pap smith. I just, I don't want anyone to look it directly in the eye.

I feel the same. I feel the exact same. I was telling Poppy that recently I got my first Hollywood ever. And i feel the exact same i was telling like i was telling probably that recently i got my first hollywood ever and it was the first time i was like haven't seen this since i was 12 that is crazy going on down there and then i got now i've been very obsessed with looking at it so every single time i ever looked back do you think is it like winked okay draw your boundaries according to what you feel comfortable with right that's that's the iron law in all of this yes but like to be a woman and in particular to be a woman of color you will

always have the idea that you have a sexuality being used against you to degrade you to try and police your behavior and to constrain you in all sorts of ways and it has as much power as you allow it to have yeah so if you don't want to take a nude because fundamentally you don't feel comfortable enough to do that that is completely fine and that's right but if you want to take a nude and there's this invisible like force telling you oh well it would reflect really poorly on you if it ever came out i mean i've had to make decisions based on because of having a public profile what would i do if this thing came out and ultimately with most things i go are you really that surprised that i've been getting up to this like yeah you know this you can you can only shame

me if i feel i've got something to be ashamed of women grow up into a society where the most dirty thing you can have is a sexuality yeah and also the worst thing you can do is not be a sexual being at all and so it's and it's within that that the shame has all of this power now i'm not saying that in those cases oh well if you were just cool about it then it wouldn't affect you of course it affects you um i've had to get stuff taken down which were just bikini photos taken down from uh pornographic websites people literally had uploaded themselves masturbating to photos of me called and like labeling it a racist hate wank wow get like rape fantasies which had been written about me taken down which were then also attached to photos

that i'd posted on instagram it's incredibly invasive it feels like people are crawling all over your body but at the same time i refuse to accept that the shame is mine it's not mine that shame is does not belong to me it belongs to the people who are doing it that is exactly why we're doing this podcast right because the shame shouldn't be on us okay so i i do love the concept of like you know imagine this uh like a drug push is telling this 15 year old i'm going to show these photos and then she turns around flicks her hair back and says so but the reality is that hasn't happened yet might happen like what do you do in that situation in that situation it's backed up by all other kinds of violence that's the thing is that it's that's not revenge operating in isolation it's also uh sexual exploitation it's also threats to family and to loved ones it's also

just like ongoing harassment and intimidation so that is one form of violence within a other context of of violence and so i kind of think it's one of those situations where you can't look at it on its own but it's also one of the things which is you know i think we've become a much more uh sexual society i don't think we've become a more sexually progressive society yeah so i think that we've ratcheted things up in terms of explicitness but we haven't actually dealt with the underlying assumptions and power structures which create these no-win situations particularly for young girls and so i think that you know that's one of the issues i have not with pornography in itself but the fact that we've got this explosion of access to pornography without other spaces in which we can

discuss sexuality or socialize young people safely into their yeah totally um and so that's that for me is like the the contradiction at the heart of everything which is like everything's really sexual but also very very shaming at the same time we have nowhere to go and like kind of air off about like we probably and i find this podcast really um therapeutic because it's like all the things that we wish we talked about to our teenage girlfriends that we just didn't because we were scared to we now we're not talking about with each other yeah and we're like to our teenage girlfriends that we just didn't because we were scared to. We're now talking about with each other. And we're like, oh yeah, that's normal. I'm normal.

The thoughts that go inside my head that I thought were a bit perverted are normal. You have them too. The fact that I think about sex all the time, the fact that I like to masturbate loads, as much as I can, however many I can get into a day. That's the truth. And it's really relieving.

And I also think that part of creating spaces like this isn't just about a space where you solely project confidence. Because I kind of feel like there is like a sex positive feminism which assumes like the ideal is that you feel the same way about sex all the time which is like really really like certain and confident and highly sexed whereas I think that part of these spaces is also creating room for doubt and creating room for like uncertainty and creating room for like I don't know what I like or how much I like it and you know and being able to experiment and to make mistakes and to back off from things as well that's why i never describe myself sex positive i'm like i'm distinctly sex ambivalent

but because i think that like another form of social media pressure is that there is a kind of like wellness culture yeah which is that if you don't which is if you don't feel those things all the time or you feel like a slump in your libido that you're failing and you're failing to be your most liberated self i mean i'm hanging on about this all the time it's not about having an expanded space for explicitness it's actually about integrating discussions of sexuality into everyday lives and selves rather than thinking that it exists in this other room which is either like you know cordoned off from everything else or you go in and it's like fireworks and you know rampaging clowns all the time just thinking about those rampaging clowns it would really put me off

yeah i don't know i don't know why i generated that image but uh you're into what you're into man that's on you yeah it's you yeah that really should have stayed between me and my internet service provider we have very little time with you right now so we're going to go to our final final game uh it's got really shit title we're sorry about it we're working on it so we'll just go for it and now for the next how do you like sex why why not call it game of boners oh game of boners thank you so much ash we are now going to be playing game of bonus thank you thank you for that it's a really quick fire game it's uh multiple choice uh it's really simple and we'll just be firing them over to you now doggy or missionary

i'm just grateful to have any at all pubes or no pubes? Oh, they're pubes. That tells me that this is legal. Lights on or lights off? Soft lighting. Spit or swallow? Depends how much pineapple they've been eating recently.

Oh, does change the taste. Porn or no porn uh depends on the mood it's kind of like eating a curly whirly all the time you've been on it all the time very very occasionally very true occasional curly whirly lube it up or natural juices oh i don't like having to make any purchases so natural juices uh hand job or foot job oh hand job i don't do foot stuff, man. Because like, one, I spend a lot of time on my pedicure and I don't want that getting messed up with stuff, man.

You know what? There's a whole, there's so many tabs. There's like a whole world of foot fetishism out there. I mean, people would buy your feet. I would probably put some money in buying a picture of your feet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe like a tenner. We should start an Instagram account that's just our feet

and see what happens. I want to gross you honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe like a tenner. We should start an Instagram account that's just our feet and see what happens. I want to gross you out. There's a specific dynamic of foot. It's like, I don't want you to be attracted to what's going on. I want you to be subordinating yourself to my minging foot. Yeah, exactly. Honestly, there's a whole thing. That's the power dynamic.

Ash, you're amazing. We love you. You're amazing. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for having us. Thanks for taking the time and joining us on Brown Girl. You're officially a Brown Girl do it too. Oh, wow. I mean, us. Thanks for taking the time and joining us on Brown Girl. You're officially a Brown Girl Do It Too. Oh, wow.

I mean, I love that it's not even, it's not Brown Girl Do It Well. It's like, well, you're here. You're here also. You're here. Yeah, exactly. We really appreciate you taking the time to chat to us.

No, thank you so much for having me. Speak to you later. Have a lovely weekend. See you. Bye. Bye. Bye. So that was Ash Sarkar.

Wasn't she amazing? She's actually kind of made me think about that whole idea that technology has forever and humans have been obsessed with sending images and we've all been

obsessed with sex forever sex has been a commodity since day dot and now it's just been supersized on cave drawings born up

I've also learned that I definitely need to send a nude I mean everyone sent nudes Poppy I know that but I didn't but definitely need to send a nude. I mean, everyone sent nudes, Poppy. I know that, but I didn't. But I now will send a nude. She's going to get the DSLR, the prime lens.

It's all happening. It's all happening here. Next week, we're speaking to journalist and producer Neelam Taylor, who was addicted to porn from a very young age. And she was also the co-host of the BBC3 documentary Porn Laid Bare. Thank you for listening. Make sure you download the BBC Sounds app

and subscribe to Brown Girls Do It Too. Fuck you later. Brown Girls Do It Too. Hi, sorry for the surprise, but I wanted to catch you after your regular pod to tell you about a new podcast from Radio 4 called The Orgasm Cult. So I'm just going to break the ice for us, OK?

My topic is female orgasm. I'm Nastra Antavakoli-Farr, and for the last year, I've been investigating a Californian company called OneTaste. They used to offer classes in something called orgasmic meditation, but maybe turned out to be a sex cult. And now the FBI is asking questions. Find out more on the orgasm cult. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds.