Brown Girls Do It Too - Defining Masculinity with Mobeen Azhar

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

Poppy is joined by documentary and filmmaker Mobeen Azhar dissect what it means to be a 'real man' and define masculinity. The delve into whether the definition is problematic, who actually gets to define masculinity and what does the future look like? Have a message for Poppy? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail]. If you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts 1, 2, 3, go this is a sex podcast

a sex podcast but it would be nothing nothing without a strong language and themes

of an adult nature disclaimer that was really good that was so off key still we get a record deal I absolutely don't think we're going to get any kind of record deal.

I think we will. I'm Poppy Jane, and you might have heard me on the award-winning podcast, Brown Girls Do It Too, which I present with the jacket to my potato, Rubina Pabani. We speak about everything from our sex lives to female rage and from Excel spreadsheets that our tax dodging uncles would be proud of to the complicated relationships we have with our families. Rubina's just had a baby. Yes. And is taking some very well earned time off to spend with her newborn. But before she went off maternity, she sent me a little assignment based

on the things that we've been talking about and unpacking on Brown Girls Do It Too. So since the beginning of time, women have been treated as the more mysterious sex. But can anyone really claim to understand the hearts, minds and the dicks of men? So this is Big Boy Energy, a podcast where I'm on a mission to delve deep into the recesses of what men want, what they really think and find the answers we all want to know. Like, is it really a man's world? Today, I'm joined by BAFTA winner, journalist and filmmaker Mubeen Azhar. Welcome. I am in the presence of a man. You are quite the character.

Definitely a man. I've admired you for a long time. You are a good friend. The work that you do is incredible. Poppy is mutual. You know I love you. And having you here as well on Big Boy Energy, finally. It's been a long time coming, isn't it?

We've got a lot of history together. I think we first worked together maybe... 2014. 2014. It's our 10-year anniversary my god 10 years cute yeah and I remember meeting you and thinking oh my god that girl's got a gob on her like yeah seriously like the first time I met you you can hear me before you can see me that's what I've been told right before you and I start let's hear Rubina's thoughts. All right, Poppy. So this week we're going to be discussing another big question for you. And that is, what does the term he's a real man mean to you?

And do you think it's a problematic term? Should we even be calling anyone real men anymore? Especially because of AI. Discuss. Because of AI? That's a twist at the end of that especially because of ai she loves a little twist that sentence didn't end where i thought it was gonna end well that's what rabina does she takes it to unexpected places oh god the term what a real man means to me if we're really going to strip it down let's be honest this is the place for being completely honest and candid a real man to me is a man who is secure and confident and kind and lets his partner man or woman fly a real man is in touch with his emotions that's all i've got at the moment that's what a

real man i completely love all that and that would be my kind of like I'm going for Miss Universe answer. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because I think it's completely right. I would say a real man is also a feminist. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. A real man has unlearned his prejudices. Yes. Yes. All of those things. Yes. I think often

though when we're amongst our friends a real man means something very different. Completely different. Do you know what I mean? It's a shorthand. Like we know what we're saying. There's two answers to that question, isn't there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I gave you the answer of why I expect a real man to be in a relationship. You know, that real man should be my brother.

Those qualities and attributes should be in my male cousins, my dad. But real men, like locker room talk, chat talk, for me, the toxic shit that you see online. So like the other answer to that question is all the negative shit. Yes. What about you? There's a particular friend that I've been going out with a lot recently.

Partying with? Yes. So I'm in a relationship. I'm married, right? I'm monogamous. But that doesn't stop me. I'm quite a flirtatious person. And we're very good.

Aren't we all babes? Yeah, you can relate. And we have completely different types of people we're into good aren't we all babes yeah you can relate and we we have completely different types of people we're into okay he's always like oh why are you always

chasing after these twinks they're not real men and he said that to me on Sunday morning when we were leaving I was like having lots of conversations with what he would call

these bunch of twinks I'm a friendly guy you know I'm a hyper social person I'm not trying to put my dick in them I'm just like you're Chatty Cathy you're, like I'm a hyper-social person. I'm not trying to put my dick in them. You're Chatty Cathy. I'm a journalist.

You're a film maker. I'm a film maker, exactly. You're curious about the world. So of course you're going to be out in the smoking area, chatting shit, asking questions. Exactly. And I will speak to anyone and everyone. The particular alchemy of this night meant that I was hanging out with a lot of twinks. And he knows that.

Is it twinks? Sorry, what does that mean exactly? A twink, it's like a hairless pretty boy. Oh my God, you've just described every date I've been on. Yeah, like a hairless pretty boy with like no chest hair. Oh my God, you're literally describing all the guys I go on a date with. Oh really? Are you into twinks?

I'm into twinks to fuck them, yeah. Are you really? Yeah, I'm into like pretty boys. Hold on, I've seen... Boys who look like they should be in a boy band, right? Kind of that vibe. Yes, so that's twinkie. I've seen some of the guys you've been with.

I would describe them as twunks. So they're like halfway between twinks and twunks. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I'm into like twink, twunk, twink to twunk. I'm smacking to like twunk. Twunk, okay. I would say.

Okay, fine. Right? Yeah. Anyway, so the reason I say it is because this particular friend, he's into what I would describe, and he describes as like men, men. What is that? So this is where it can be all fun and games, and I think it's hilarious. Yes.

But I do also think there's a seed of something a bit wild going on here. Yeah. So what I mean by this is he would say he wants someone that looks like they're going to like, like pin him down, basically. That's kind of hot, though. I want that in the bedroom. So a lot of people want that. I don't want that in the alleyway, but I want it in the bedroom.

Yes, 100%. I'd be interested to know what you think about this, but certainly in the gay community amongst gay men. Yeah. The idea of masculinity and the idea of men being real men is like the biggest fucking currency. Really? In the world yeah so you can be in situations where like men who are like role-playing this idea of what they think a real man is yes everyone will be around them like flies so then ariana grande might come on and

then they start dancing in a particular way and And then all the flies disseminate because that fucked my fantasy. Like my fantasy was that he's going to do my DIY on a Sunday. And the reality is he's dancing to fucking Ariana Grande and he watches Drag Race. It's funny. It's really funny. But there's something quite toxic in that. Oh, my God. It's very telling. So I would say that I 100% had to unlearn particular behaviours. Because I was, for years and years,

I would always be with guys that were a little bit shorter than me, a little bit smaller than me. So even my husband, obviously you've met him. He's maybe an inch shorter than me. And we've been together forever. But I think one of the reasons, it wasn't the reason we got together, but at that time, we met decades ago.

It's what you were into at the time. And of course, that has an influence. Exactly. But part of that, I think, getting older, I realize now, it was to do with the idea that my programming was telling me that, okay, I'm gay, but I need to be the man in the relationship, which is terrible. I think it's really toxic and terrible.

Yeah. Because what is that really rooted in? I think it's rooted in misogyny. It's rooted in the idea that, like, you're a man, why would you behave like a woman? Also these heteronormative ideas of dating, right? Like, the man needs to be taller, the man needs to be older. Yeah.

You look at Zendaya and Tom Holland, right? Like, he needs to pay for stuff. It's nonsense. It's absolute shit. But I want to take back two steps. Like, your friend, when he said to you, why are you going out with these twinks? You need to go out with a real man.

What did you think he meant by a real man? So I know what he means. So he's talking about, like, needs to be at least six foot tall. Okay. Needs to be at the gym. Like, I'm talking about like four or five times a week, like 44 inch chest as a minimum, like massive biceps. Massive biceps, 44 inches.

Hung like a horse. Hung like a horse. Yeah. And that is who he'll go for. And like leather daddies, and like needs to be a bit older than him. That's who he would describe as a real man. And I'm not going to criticize him because that's just his preference. Yeah, but you've just described physical attributes. Like, what about personality? So personality absolutely matters to him.

So they need to be a decent human being. But apart from that, he's not asking them on the dance floor or in the smoking area necessarily, you know, about their 10-year plan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or their politics or that he doesn't give a shit. When I was asking you about personality personality I guess what I'm saying is in the straight world I think when men

and some women talk about what a real man is it's a version of that minus the leather but it's like big strong guy who can take care of the bills who can pay for shit

who is the alpha you know there's labels that we're obsessed with like alpha and simp and beta and all this stuff, right? And that is what I think a real man means to some men and some women. And Rubina said, is it problematic that we're using this term? I think 100% yes.

I think it is really problematic if the intention is wrong. Actually, no, I think it's just really problematic because real man has so many particular connotations. So unless you have the intention that you know exactly what you're talking about and other people know what you're talking about, what you're doing by saying real man is the real bit is suggesting other men are not real.

Real, exactly, exactly. That's the problem. That's the problem. And actually what you do is when you say real man, we all tend to think of those old school stereotypes that our dads, our grandfathers, you know, the kind of stereotypes that my dad would associate with what it means to be a real man. We've carried that forward, right? In all honesty, you know, in terms of women that you know, your peers, do you think there's a split between what they think should be the right answer, i.e. I want equality, but then if they're on a date, for example, would they actually kind of giggle a bit if the guy got the card out?

Really, really good answer. It's a really good question. My friends would absolutely, and believe in it, like back it with their chest, half and half. Half and half? Half and half, yeah. My family and sisters would be of completely the other way. Is that a brown thing? I think it's an ethnic thing, like being taken be of completely the other way. Is that a brown thing?

I think it's an ethnic thing, like being taken care of by the man, having those sort of old tropes and old traditions. Yes. And there's part of me that thinks that's absolutely fine. It's your choice. But there's part of me that thinks, okay, where are we in terms of that discussion then? I remember being on a date with a guy and then paying.

And he was just joking, but I think he was serious. When I paid, he's like, oh, so I think he was serious when I paid he's like oh so are you a top because I paid so do you know like it's really funny but at the same time isn't that just gender

gender roles and gender stereotypes do you know what I mean because what he's really saying there is like you're the real man yeah whereas actually

all I've done is just paid like let's be serious for a second you're saying if you're getting penetrated then you're not a real man yeah Yeah. Whereas actually all I've done is just paid. Let's be serious for a second. You're saying if you're getting penetrated then you're not a real man. Yeah. Which is quite problematic.

Really problematic. That's really fucked up. Yeah. So I laughed and thought it was hilarious. Yeah. But you know it's actually not good.

I think it is problematic. But men straight men and I'm now thinking about straight brown boys hold so much currency by being a real man. Oh, my God.

When their cousins say you're a real bro, you know, from the cars they drive to the women they go out with to where they party to what they spend their money on, like, to be a real man, you know, you wouldn't see a brown boy in the kitchen making samosas because that wouldn't be seen as real, right? It's true, but you know what? We talk about this as programming,

but I also think a lot of this is that millennia old. Yes. You know, the whole hunter gatherer thing. The idea that, you know, in the heterosexual world, women are programmed to identify men who are going to be good providers. And men, straight men are programmed to identify women who are hyper fertile. Yeah. So how do you identify hyper fertility it's like big hair like they've got they've got a lot of hair growing out their head

they've got bright red lips you know lips obviously signify other lips and a lot of that stuff I don't know if that's just 18th 90 20th century programming or actually I think it's probably it goes way way way beyond that yeah who do you think gets to define what masculinity is? Who gets to? So increasingly, I think we should and we do. And I think increasingly there's lots of people around me and I meet lots of people who are kind of redefining that. But if we're really honest about it,

we are trying to get rid of centuries of bullshit. And so it's going to take a long, long, long, long, long time to redefine that. You know, it's what we just said. We also can't help what our programming means. We find hot. Yeah. And so if you find a particular kind of guy hot, and I would say I've got like very, very broad, varied taste but sometimes you just see a man and you just think

do you know what I mean yeah you can't really help that yeah and sometimes that's a particular kind of guy yeah we had Ramzan Mir on Big Boy Energy and he's a model and an actor and he's you know tall dark and handsome and I was asking, why do you think Asian men do so badly on the dating apps? Right? Yes. And so, and I was saying to him, it's something that you just said now, like, when I think about my palate and my taste in men, I know it's problematic. Because... Because you like white people.

Because I'm into white guys and black guys, but predominantly white guys. And it's mostly white guys that match me. Say I grew up in Bangladesh, right? Where I'm from. I think my taste would be completely reflective of the surroundings. Yes. And my upbringing. But I am a geriatric millennial. I don't think we're that far in age. And I grew up with seeing just white role models. Yes. Women and men. I only, I mean, Bollywood leave to one side. I only ever saw white guys on TV. So that, my taste. Poppy, this is wild.

Honestly, this is completely wild because. And I'm trying to really fucking unlearn that. It's so terrible because do you see there's like a complete difference. Yeah. Between what our brain is telling us is kind of the the moral and upstanding thing to do i.e there should be no preference yeah and take everything on a case-by-case basis and then i guess what we'd call our monkey brain yeah and our monkey brain telling us oh my god white boys are so hot if they're six foot four yeah it's so fucked up it's so wrong It's so wrong. It's so wrong. And it's like,

how much of my taste is nature versus nurture? And that programming, right? But can I chuck something out at you? So I wonder if your taste for white boys is partially to do with, and I can relate to this, I'm really not making a value judgment,

is partially to do with our upbringing and therefore, as brown people and our understanding, wrongly or rightly so, that a lot, not all, I'm not stereotyping, but a lot of brown men are going to uphold the patriarchy, are going to be sexist. 100,000%.

So if you've got all that in the back of your mind, particularly if you've had bad experiences i'm gonna tell you i was you know the first relationship i was in like first proper relationship i was head over heels in love the guy was seven years older than me yeah let me tell you a story brown guy and you know what he did two years into the relationship he was an artist he was basically like he was like a rich brat right so he had too much money so he was a live artist to do these expressive works and he got me comps for one of his shows so I went to the show and I picked up my comp ticket and they asked for my name so I gave them my name and then

I'm in the comp bit and there's an empty seat next to me. So I'm thinking, oh, someone else must have a comp. So then this really beautiful woman approaches just before the show starts. The lights go down and I say, oh, hi, how are you doing? I'm Mubeen. She says, yeah, my name is blah, blah, blah. And I say, oh, yeah, yeah, great. Lovely to meet you. So then I say, oh, how do you know this person?

How do you know him? And she says, I'm his wife what and then the lights go down I'm sitting there thinking okay am I meant to not say and then she whispers over she's like oh are you

I know you you're Mubeen you're his friend aren't you he's been talking about you you're his friend he's always talking about you it's so great to meet you like he's always telling me

how hilarious you are and I'm like yeah I'm his friend he's also been sucking my dick for the last two years did you say that to her no no i didn't say it i'm thinking yeah you're thinking it okay okay do you know what i mean yeah of course like we've been in a relationship he's asked me if maybe next year i want to move in with him what on earth is going on here? And then the show finishes. And this is more about this particular individual because he was, let's call him a very complicated person. So we go backstage and then he says,

oh, I booked dinner for the three of us. I'm going to sit through dinner with his wife. And so I just, you know, I was young. I think I was 24 at the time. The relationship started when I was 22 and I completely censored myself completely fell into line didn't let her know yeah that I was the boyfriend and then obviously when I could I said to him like maybe a day later what on earth was this about what did he say so he said oh you know I'm a complicated kind of guy and I'm not your

average man and I have not your average man. And I have particular needs and our relationship is fluid. And she doesn't know about you in an explicit way. But in an unexplicit way, she does know about you and she knows I've got other needs and it's all good. And I think I really kid myself because that relationship went on a while. The reason I tell that story is I would be lying if I said the fact that the first few years I was in relationships first decade I was in relationships

was overwhelmingly brown people and do I still have hang ups about you know driving around and them saying oh my god that's my uncle over there quick hide do you know what I mean absolutely

I don't want to hide I have the version you just said. I have the straight version. There you go. And I've got the chip on my shoulder with brown boys, how brown boys were treated. And you know what? Brown boys, they look at me and they're like, goes out with white guys. I mean, they wouldn't be wrong. That's factually accurate. But they don't ask why I go out with non-Asians. And the why is because some of them are mummy's boys, the patriarchy, the misogyny,

the baggage that will come from me dating you when it's just simpler and easier with a non-Asian. It is, but I also have to acknowledge one, that I have a ton of baggage and that I am Punjabi. As Punjabi men you know my parents have always treated me like a fucking prince

including you know peeling grapes and shelling nuts and you know putting coconut oil in my hair and feeding me at the same time

and you know when I met Tim he thought that was a bit odd it is odd it's a bit odd isn't it I would agree with your partner it's odd.

So I've got particular issues. And then the more important thing that I'd say, which takes it away from me and makes it a lot broader, is I also have prejudices, which I need to check because not all brown boys and brown women, you know, uphold those values. And you would acknowledge that, I'm sure. So here's the thing that I'm going through at the moment.

I really want to date brown guys. I went on a date with a brown surgeon the other day. I say the other day, like months ago. But I am really trying to change. And actually what I've realised, having been with a white guy for so long, is I really miss being able to share my culture, my language. My mum speaks no English. And I remember it was just this heartbreaking moment

where she realised I wasn't going to bring home a Bengali guy and she was like sitting looking at the ground rocking back and forth and she was like in Bengali she said

how is she going to speak to him and it broke my heart so it's so important now and I think certainly when I look to settle genuinely I'm looking for a brown guy but finding those brown men

like there's so much of my culture that i that you miss out on and certainly when i talk about you sort of lament on losing a part of your identity when you're with someone who is not punjabi who is not something all the in jokes and the banter like you just you lose it and i would love to have that with a brown guy but it comes and I've got prejudices. I need to unlearn a lot of shit. But also, I'm not seeing the real man that I've given you the definition of, my definition. I've not seen that in brown guys.

But again, that isn't to say all brown men. And clearly, I need to keep looking harder and harder. But they're out there. It's just hard. I'm fighting a tide and it is fucking hard but an air of optimism I think we're millennials I think

Gen Z's are in a really much more progressive place way more so those boys there's a shift well I date 24 year olds

so they would be perfect there you go so you know you're seeing there's a shift and there's a kind of recalibration adding to that you know when you think about like pop culture, music culture, films, TV, that adds to it, right?

So they're just not seen as desirable. Of course they are. Like, of course, of course they're desirable to other Asian women. But then let me chuck something out at you. Don't you think by the fact, and I'm saying this to myself as well, I'm not wagging a finger, by you seeing white boys and me marrying a white guy yeah don't you think we're just upholding all that absolutely we're perpetuating that we're absolutely I am the problem so and I can admit the problem then should I get a divorce like what are

you saying in that classic way Mabin you and I have gone off tangent and like you said earlier, it doesn't feel like a podcast Completely unexpected, we never do that But I guess for you, what does it mean in your definition to be a real man? So right now, with all of my vast experience I think now

a real man, really honestly is about being comfortable with yourself, more than anything. I think it's about that and about being fair and moral and a good person. I think that's what qualifies a real man. And, you know, leaving all your prejudices at the door, being a feminist, being actively anti-racist, being, you know, actively like contributing to making the world a better place. I know it's very lovely, but that's what a real man actually is

and I completely agree with you in my non-Asian world you can get very plugged into oh my god we're all like these progressive liberals but actually when I plug back into brown people life forced arranged marriage all this shit that's still going on people that still live in the closet

who can't be honest to their families about all sorts of shit having to pretend that, you know, sex isn't for pleasure. Yes. All of that stuff, let's just be honest about it. It still happens in our communities and it still happens fairly consistently.

All this talk of, how would you say it? Shame, honour, reputation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All of that talk, you know, you talk about plugging back into brown world I love Huddersfield I love my friends in Huddersfield

when I go back there though it's a different universe yeah they're still having those conversations and so I do think we have a responsibility yeah

to be able to say look there's a different way of doing things and I think our generation and Gen Z they are leading the way it just I think and I come back to this all the time like I think about my parents now and i think our generation in gen z they are leading the way it just i think every

and i come back to this all the time like i think about my parents now and i think about them 20 years ago and they have showed change the change has been incredibly slow but they are going in the right direction so we are i i do have some hope that things are changing but it just i'm impatient as fucking is i'm like can you fucking change 10 years ago already? Jesus Christ. Of course, of course. We're there. But I am really encouraged by really young people. Yeah.

I think they are leading. I know a lot of Gen Z people have this reputation of, you know, people call them snowflakes and say, oh my God, you're all talking about you. I fucking love Gen Z. I love Gen Z. They are flying the flag. They're burning shit down.

They're holding people accountable. A hundred percent. And they value their fucking mental health. Good for them. Do you know what I mean? I love Gen Z they are flying the flag they're burning shit down they're holding people accountable 100% and they value their fucking mental health good for them do you know what I mean they have boundaries we didn't have any boundaries

we had no boundaries I'm still working on my boundaries do you know what I mean I'll do that for free yes I'll work for you 100% I'm having to learn that stuff

we learn that stuff whereas they actually have good for them that is what you call progress yeah absolutely I totally agree Mabin we can go on and on and on and on

which we will I'm sure we definitely can so going back to Mabin's voice where she says can you use the term real man anymore

especially with AI that threw you a bit why did that throw you because firstly Mabin what the fuck are you talking about and secondly AI I think could be

helpful because then you know when it's really, you could get fucked by Henry Cavill. Right. So that could be your AI solution. Yeah. He would say that he's a real man. Of course he would. He would.

I've seen those videos of him repairing computers. OK, so I rest my case. But I think what Rubina was talking about, you know when you have these avatars that are created, like you know how you can fake someone's voice now? You can lay out a whole Rihanna track and it's not Rihanna singing, but it sounds like Rihanna. There is a model, there's an AI

created model that is earning money as a model, and it's not real. So she's basically saying, can you even be a real man, especially when AI could create. But isn't that completely wild that what is now being held up as hyper-masculinity and as the epitome of masculinity, like let's take all of the quote-unquote best features

and create this AI supermodel of masculinity is not real. It's not real. But what it then means is another whole generation of kids, instead of looking up to real men, and you are a real man sitting in front of me. I'm most definitely real and I'm a man. And you're a man and you're a real man. They will be probably looking up to these avatars

or these AI generated characters. And it's like, where do we go? We're really going off on a tangent here. But there is a fear there because, you know, I'll be succinct because it's an entirely different conversation. Yeah. But I think it goes back to that thing about

we do live in a world where everyone is just floating around with a bunch of insecurities. Yeah. And everyone's insecurities are really terrible and no one is benefiting. So when you're looking at these unattainable standards of masculinity or femininity or anything else who stands to benefit like maybe the people that are advertising a product maybe they stand to benefit you don't yeah your family isn't any happier for

it your friends aren't any happy for it and it's kind of corroding who you are yeah so I believe when that stuff is being sold to us we should take it with a pinch of salt and we should think do you know what I know what this is I'm gonna put it in a box and it's not real and that's a healthy way to look at but I know that's very difficult yeah I always like to ask a guest this question you being so comfortable in your skin now and knowing what you know now if you could go back to 15 year old Mubeen living in Huddersfield. Oh my God. What would you say to that 15-year-old Mubeen? I'd say, why are you talking like this?

Was your accent different? It was a lovely accent. Yeah, it was from Yorkshire. I talk like this all the time. Oh my God. Yeah. But Yorkshire, Bradfordia and Huddersfield. So like a mess then. Yeah, yeah. No, what would I say to 15-year-old Mubeen? I think, you know, I can make these grand affirmations and say live in your truth and be authentic,

but I had to learn all that stuff. So I think the most useful thing I could say to 15-year-old Mubeen is you're actually going to be great. Everything's going to be all right. It's going to, like, you take one day at a time. It's going to work out, babes. Everything's going to be all right. It's going to, like, you take one day at a time. It's going to work out, babes. You're going to be all right. That is so, that is exactly what I would say to a 15-year-old poppy.

And that's exactly what Bina said to a 15-year-old. Oh, really? Yeah. And when I look at, when I meet, I was looking for a rollie the other day and I walked up to this group of young girls and I was being very loud and they were so young and they couldn't believe my age and I said you know what girls I said how old are you and they were like I don't know 21 22 so very young and I said do you want some advice some unsolicited advice I know you haven't asked me but I'm telling you from your auntie from your auntie I'm like

it's gonna be okay yes I can't believe you're fighting. And I was like, you know what? Whatever worries and concerns and fears and anxieties you have now, it's going to be OK. Yes. You're going to be fine. A hundred percent. You know, I'm a Prince Obsessive. Yes, I know. I'm an absolute Prince Obsessive. Everyone that knows me knows that.

There's a ridiculous song called Wherever You Go, Whatever You Do. It's the corniest song. Yeah. And there's a line in there and he says, Whatever You Do. It's the corniest song. Yeah. And there's a line in there and he says, wherever you go, think of your dreams. Remember, dreams become the life you lead. And I genuinely believe that. I think if you envisage something, and it doesn't have to be,

I'm not one of these people that has fucking post-it notes stuck next to my mirror. But, you know, I always had a sense, and I know that you always had a sense of kind of where you wanted to get to. And I think it works out. You've got to tell yourself it works out. And it does work out.

And on that note, Mabeen, it has been fucking wonderful having you on Big Boy Energy. You've bought all the Big Boy Energy and this jacket, I mean, I can't... Like, this jacket is giving me real man Big Boy Energy vibes. It's cute as fuck. Are you obsessed with cats? this jacket I mean I can't like this jacket is giving me real man big boy energy vibes it's cute as fuck

are you obsessed with cats? I love cats and I love dogs and I love Pomeranians and Chihuahuas as well oh wow so really all of the furry things

all the furry things all of the furry things thank you so much you've been wonderful thank you it's been wicked I've loved it I love you

and I know we can keep talking and we will, I'm sure. As ever, thank you, listener, for listening. If you have any thoughts on what being a real man is and you want to tell me what big boy energy means to you, WhatsApp me on 079 68 100 822. Real man. Bye.

Big boy energy. 822 real man bye