Brown Girls Do It Too - Fatherhood with Marvyn Harrison

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Poppy is joined by author and founder of Dope Black Dads to talk about fatherhood and the social, economic and emotional impact it has on men. They also discuss the changing role of men in society, the concept of 'fear parenting' and Marvyn flips the script by asking Poppy a question about her own father.Have a message for Poppy? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail]. If you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts can you tell me your best dad joke I don't really have I only have a really rude one

it's the only joke I can remember okay hold that rude one because I can tell you my best dad joke but before I do that I've got to give a warning

that this podcast will contain strong language and themes of an adult nature so now that I've done my warning yeah

can you please tell me your rude dad joke I don't think I can why like I just remember where i was you know why you can't no just the surroundings got me into a place where i was like oh i'm just hanging out with poppy this is nice but then i thought about the joke to the end no please i literally cannot say it out of my mouth i'm poppy j and you might have heard me on the award-winning podcast, Brown Girls Do It Too, which I present with my soul sister from another brown mister, Rubina Pabani. We speak about everything, from our sex lives to female rage,

and from Excel spreadsheets that our tax-dodging uncles would be proud of to the complicated relationships we have with our families. Rubina's had a baby who I just met the other day. I know, terrible auntie for taking this long, but I can officially say he is the most beautifulest and chillest baby I have ever laid eyes on in 2024. Rubes is taking some very well-earned time off to spend with her bubs, but before she went off on mat leave,

she sent me a little assignment based on all the chats we've been having on Brown Girls Do It Too. Since the beginning of time, women have been treated as the more mysterious sex. But can anyone really claim to understand the hearts, minds and the dicks of men? So this is Big Boy Energy, a podcast where I'm on a mission to delve deep into the recesses of what men want, what they really think and find the answers we all want to know. Big Boy Energy. answers we all want to know. I'm joined by author and founder of Dope Black Dads, Marvin Harrison.

Ruby has left me a voice note about fatherhood. Hey, P-Dawg. When one becomes a parent, which sex does it have the biggest impact on, men or women? I think this is an interesting one. You are not a parent. So I'm really interested in your perspective on what you have seen, seeneth. Good luck answering. I'm not a parent, but I've been a parent to my siblings. I'm the eldest of six.

Oh, there you go. So, but it's not the same, is it? You have maternal energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I definitely, that much I do. I know what I'm going to say. What are you going to say? I think it's better to start with you.

Okay. This is one of those questions where it's like, when women have babies, do you think it's important that men support them? And I'm like, well, I don't know. Sometimes,

sometimes they're going to do it on their own. Prove it. I, I obviously think it impacts the woman. Obviously the mum without fail. I think it impacts the woman. Obviously the mum without fail. I think it impacts men, of course, in different ways. But I think it impacts women. I appreciate the consolation it impacts men too.

Like, could you put your hands up? It was like, I don't want to cause any problems. They do have a hard time too. But it's really just about women. That wasn't... It's their bodies. You've really you've discovered who I am

Marvin quite quickly as observant as you are look you have a child it's going to change your life completely but just from the conversations

that I have with my mother with female friends who are mums with Rubina what it does to your body what it does to your emotion and what it does to your career

it's like a triple hit. Whereas with men, I mean, your body's fine. Emotionally, yes. Career-wise, not always. So I think women are more affected by it. But I mean, I'm not a parent. If I had to put things into percentage ratio, because I think that helps me visually.

I love a pie chart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A visual pie chart in my head. Yeah, I love a visual pie yeah a visual pie chart i would say it impacts women 80 okay and men 20 interesting i thought you were going to go higher no no no i think like for women is definitely a huge transition and it's body mind it's career it's friendship it's all those things yeah but I also think where women are like probably like prepared psychologically whether they like it or not

to be mothers like by proxy constantly it's just like from five years old when you're Asian from zero your program

to make a baby you're a baby hold this other baby and feed it and like learn how to be maternal it's from the beginning and so there's lots of information that they get

throughout their lives so when it happens it's from the beginning and so there's lots of information that they get throughout their lives so when it happens it's difficult but there's information whereas I think for dads it's kind of like that generation of dads that we were raised by

are not equipped to tell us how to raise children today so most men of this generation are doing it unguided they're like making it up most men of

your generation yes interesting we're treating it like a work problem like hey we need to grow by 17% by next year and we're like making it up most men of your generation yes interesting we're treating it like a work problem like hey we need to grow by 17 by next year we're like okay cool so why don't we move these levers and it's like oh we have a baby it's like okay so what i'm gonna do is i'm gonna do this with my time and i'm gonna turn up here and i'm gonna fix this shelf and i'm gonna like pat you on the head are you okay does everything all right over there no and then it's just like

there's all these things you're logically trying to do and I don't think it works when you try to apply work etiquette to your family interesting that is fascinating what you were just saying is probably one of the most guy things to say like I want to talk to you about my dad right Asian fathers there's a thing that I heard they're present but absent right when I was growing up my worked, he worked in a restaurant. So he worked in the evenings and never saw him, hardly ever, right? And so my mum was left to raise, well, she's got six kids,

but four kids at the time. I'm not generalising here, but especially if you're like working in a factory or working in a restaurant, you're never really around in the evenings. And when you're at home, you're tired, you're exhausted. And I love my dad, shout out,

but like, I don't know how to say this politely he was a good dad but he wasn't the greatest dad growing up because he wasn't around and also because I come from a really conservative

Muslim household he's had five daughters the way he's had to raise us is constant clashes you know you can't do this you can't go out there you can't wear jeans

he was quite strict so you know I won't lie all of our siblings grew up fighting with him constantly like it was a struggle can I share a perspective yeah of course well I think as a minoritized dad your number one thing when you have daughters is fear you fear parent you don't get the luxury of love parenting so when you're psychologically safe you could just

love just love oh go play I love you what do you want to do i get this for you i love you so i i think you get fear parenting and a lot of that that's where the friction comes from but that doesn't mean that it's not still loving it's just a different type of love i don't actually think it's healthy but i understand it because my mom's inherent fear of me as a single black mama was that I would die or go to jail. So my number one objective was to go outside, but nothing that could create that for me. So don't be out too late. Don't go too far. Like if I call you, you need to be close enough to the house to hear me yell you out the window and return within 30 seconds. And this is her fear parenting you.

And so there is that version of it. And I think every man who has ever observed what men do to women fear that happening to their daughters. So this is why the, oh, I'm having a daughter is always a catalyst for men to humanize women, whether that's right or wrong. Because now it comes so close to home. You're like, you start looking at your friends differently. Like, I don't want to be friends with you because what you do to your wife means that someone could do that i don't want you around that's where the energy shifts so i think a lot for men is like is you're socialized just to to get on with it you're not really socialized to challenge things and to fix things into like societal like you don't get involved it's just how do I make the most out of what I have and provide safety, security, economic support?

So he probably just looked at you and just saw fear. Yeah. And yeah, he's like, don't wear jeans. And he'll come up with this spectacular reason why jeans is going to lead to you becoming pregnant. It's a gateway to, because you're my dad. I mean, we're all our dads.

My dad is like, don't wear jeans because it means you're going to get pregnant because it means someone's going to fancy you because somehow I don't know if it's this thing with a sort of immigrant mentality coming to a different country different challenges but it was always a struggle for me to build a connection emotionally I mean I guess I wanted to ask you when you think about your dad and you how do you approach fatherhood that's I imagine different to your dad yeah yeah so i think whenever you extract your culture from a different country come to the uk you won't get the like systemic support needed

for how your world is different to british people generationally british people's worlds have been and will be and so because of that exists there is a lot more work that the families need to do to communicate what's going on and to like demystify a lot of the occurrences that happen around you. But that generation of parent was never taught to sit back, go to the beginning of their parenting file and be like, oh, in 1985, when I was really worried about you and this is what was going on it's because this was happening outside and actually I got called the p word I got called the n word outside and that made me not want to let you go out so I didn't say you couldn't go out because you I didn't want you to go out because of what was outside they never go through that conversation so we're just kind of guessing yeah and I probably you probably have quite a lot of stories about your family that aren't actually accurate but until they're open enough to sit with you and just hear it all and just be

like oh is that what you thought it was nothing to do with that it was this then you could be like oh okay it wasn't as bad i i had the luxury of doing that this is what the beauty of going to therapy is i remember i went to one therapy session once and for two days straight i just cried because i was like i don't remember five years of my life because my brain suppressed it all because it was just I didn't get it I didn't enjoy it I was like why the hell have I been made why am I here when you ask those questions of yourself and then I was like this happened to me and this happened my mum missed this and she said this one time he had all these stories and then I went back to my brothers and my sisters and they were like yeah but maybe this is

why because they're a little bit older they remember and then i went back to my mom afterwards and she gave me even more insight as to the things that was happening for her there was a point where she was living in a hostel with two children i didn't know that yeah i had no idea because my when i got my memory kicked in we were already in our house so she came from somewhere went through a lot of things and i've turned up now and i'm like yeah but it's not perfect because jimmy's got you know it's always jimmy yeah poor jimmy always gets poor jimmy so i think a lot of it is just to do with how do i like reconcile with what had happened and i try to find the most loving version of what i've heard and i have a lot more patience

yeah than i did historically. But it is very, very difficult to get to that point when your parent isn't giving you that information. Yeah, this has been my experience. So when my mum and dad were fear-loving

and shouting and saying, you can't do this, they'd never give us the reason. It's only now in my late 30s. In my 20s, I was angry towards them and now I have sympathy, I have empathy. I have empathy.

I understand why they made those choices. They may not have been the right choices, but I get it. I wanted to come back to something you were saying earlier about when men become fathers, what is their biggest fear? Do they have fears? And what is that? There's a couple of things that happened that I remember being profoundly fearful about. Watching the more of my children deliver my children was

the first time i felt powerless like i had to watch her deliver and it looked scary there's blood there's stuff going on there's beeps everywhere and there's panic sometimes people rushing in and being like oh and i knew i could not actually do anything it's the only time i couldn't physically protect her so there's this psychology of just like watching someone you love very much being vulnerable and at risk and not being able to do a single thing. The other thing is,

is that I now need to find 18, 20, 25 years worth of income. I got to figure that out. Like that. And the thing is in this era, it's more and more than it ever was. But like, I've got to find that number no matter what and i can't necessarily go to my partner and be like hey i've got to make this can you pick up a shovel it may not be possible because they're pretty much consumed

with a mission already and so i think the the last thing is is like like being a black dad, I specifically, I'm aware of like, when does my son become a man in the eyes of the public? So he's a boy, he's nine, and he's taller than everybody else. He's a great human being. Kindness, like, where did you get that kindness from? I kind of look at him sometimes and be like, because I'm not even that warm and fuzzy.

And, but when does he become a young man? When does he become a threat in the eyes of the people around him and i have to give him the information without scaring him and making him scared of the police scared of potentially white people with skinheads like i had to grow up and decipher like i have to try and navigate all of these psychological emotional lines and i'm aware that like i grew up with a great mother and I still had a story about her I'm trying to keep not even keep my children off the pole trying to keep them off of their therapist

couch where they don't understand their adult experience these are my bucket of fears like I have to navigate these things in a better way than historically has ever happened that's hard because it's what's in your child's mind. And I'm not always there. How do you navigate it though? How do you tell them these things and warn them of these things without making them feel fearful? So when I try to put them into safe challenges, so I always had this example

when my son was like three or four, we would go past the park and if it was locked or closed, I would pick him up, put him over the fence and be like, how'd you get out? And then just watch him like, try and figure it out and gamify it that's such a

that's such a dad wave yes that is such a man wave and it's so fascinating you've done that with if you'd had a daughter yes you've done the same

okay how are you going to get out because I need you to think I need you to think the thing is is that what's beautiful is that I notice that like if I'm with a woman

or I'm with children they switch off when I'm around because I'm with a woman or I'm with children they switch off when I'm around because I'm doing the thinking I'm where are we going what we're doing yeah and they just get to be like oh this is nice okay and I'm like no no no danger what's that car doing why did you stop there why is the van so big why is it so old what's wrong with the license plate what kind of man is getting out like I'm I'm scanning so we're in this thing of like we're trying to change how women

do you have a girl and a boy I have a girl and a boy and it's like we're trying to change how the world perceives men and women

but there is a way that men are socialized and women are socialized that has nothing to do with your parents and even the people who are like no we're equal

will then treat a girl in a completely different way so I teach my daughter to have agency every time she speaks I stop pay attention like what is it you're trying to say i want her to understand that her words matter and that she genuinely has a say in her environment it's not about being cute and silent so doing that comes at a cost because most of the time the people that who are silencing her are other mothers other parents

other women around other girls who are just like this is a lot and i'm like i i don't care because i know what the cost of it on the other side if it is and for my son i have to teach him more things because he's very handsome being them being handsome is like you have to be kind yeah and you have to have a personality you gotta have a personality you have to you gotta be jokes you gotta be like that that is only gonna get you so far and then it's gonna get you nowhere so so me and the family we create like we do presentations for ideas that you have and i get them to speak confidently we create youtube videos that no one ever sees yeah just like how do you communicate how do you express yourself how to be funny how to be interesting how to tell a story how to share facts

we do all of that stuff we just don't put it anywhere but like it's a really important way of developing and testing yourself in front of other people I cannot explain to you

how many stunted children exist because parents don't allow them to fully express themselves or they're just on their social media right and they're just

zoom scrolling and critical this is something I was having a discussion with a friend, like kids now more than ever, that sense of critical thinking, like, because now with social media, you can believe anything. So the sense of questioning something, a source, who's it from? Who's writing it? Who's the audience? This generation of kids, I feel like, need it more than anyone else. There's literally so much to teach your children. Add minoritized to it. Add, like, gender to it. You just start building an ongoing layer of things that I think it's really important for them to know.

I taught my son about sex the other day. How did that go? So it's really interesting. I was at a conference and they were talking about the best time to teach your children is at eight. Yeah. And they said, but don't teach it like sex teach it like the act a plus b equals c and it creates this and it's just that simple so i took him through it showed him a biological diagram okay abc bam bam bam and he

was just like yeah i think you have one question so he's like that goes in there and i was like yeah i was like what did i just tell you he recited it back to me and then he's like, that goes in there. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, what did I just tell you? He recited it back to me. And then he was like, okay. And he went about his business. But what happens is if you are taught sex from the angle of pornography or from the pleasure act of sex, it completely changes their understanding of it. When it's as simple as A, B and C, it's just information. And then they take it and now they know it. So when they are shown it from a like a pleasure pornography point of view they just actually disassociate the two separate things and it's

like actually this is what it truly means it's just a b and c yeah and then he'll come back to you because you started the conversation yeah if you start the conversation you own the conversation with your children if you let the teachers do it they own the conversation i want to own all the big conversations with my children so i will have them slightly than maybe the rest of the public would identify. But as far as I'm concerned, it happens in a timely, age-appropriate, scientific way. And then I get to have that conversation and relationship with them on that topic. A very obvious question. How did you know to do all of this with your kid?

Did it come naturally to you? It's just what I needed. It's what I needed. Like, I was a child and there was stuff that I needed in a in a particular way at a particular time that you didn't get I didn't get and my mum was more forthcoming than others but there's just gaps yeah like if you're not consistently on it you would just miss things and it happens out in the world faster than you really realize so like the first pornography that I ever saw was at probably 10.

Someone brought it wrapped up in this like, it was like. Is it a DVD? No, it was a magazine and it was wrapped up like pages torn in someone's rucksack. And then like they pulled it out and it was like, oh, and it was like, I had no idea what I was looking at. But I was like, this is interesting. I needed a context. Because if your son gets that, at least he's had that conversation with you

and you've opened up the door and he could always come back to you and say, Dad, I saw this thing. And then that takes you to the next bit of the conversation. Yes. We've all been talking about male masculinity, male fragility, the intel culture. Do you think this generation of men who feel lost,

you know, who do feel like they haven't found their identity, or can you see a link towards fatherhood and maybe the way they're raised? Yeah, no. A much bigger conversation. People put it down to one gender or the other because there is insights that say that single mother households raise men that are unhealthy.

Do they? I've seen the other statistics. That's what I'm saying. So both of those things exist in the public domain and both agendas use it to attack each other and be like, it's your fault why this is happening. And the reality is the breakdown of the family is a massive part of how we're able to develop young men who are without purpose, without discipline, without healthy practices. And that's not to do with one particular gender being present or absent. That's really about how we view family as a society. And if you think about all the anti-family policies and laws and ways that are being developed now, we are literally creating fragmented families easier and easier every single generation that we go through and now i'm just worried that who is present at home but the amount of money you

need to make as a household to survive especially inside london for an example is if you don't have two parents making money or you have one exceptional parent making two people's money you're really struggling and then so people are having two to three jobs to make up for the shortfall. But then who's at home? Taking care of the kids. There's no structure. And then you've got young people who are like 11 to 16

raising the other kids in the house and they're not prepared psychologically, mentally or emotionally to be able to do so. So the problem is systemic and then it comes down into a social output so i i don't like dismissing men as a red pill as if as if they have options and then they choose the bad one yeah what options are there for men to become more than what they are the idea of like going to university getting a job and becoming someone is a dead concept like going to university

doesn't even put you in to the limelight anymore. It's just like a standard thing you need to have. So what are these men supposed to be doing? There is no career for them. There are no businesses that they need to be making. All the things that men traditionally leaned into to have value and worth don't exist anymore. And it's not being replaced by anything. So most men are relying on things like cryptocurrency,

are relying on creating content online, are relying on subscription and call services. Quick buck. Quick, but also independent. Like away from, I don't have to rely on anybody to give me this. Yeah, so they're their own bosses. They're their own boss. So this is what's actually developing it, is capitalism.

What do you think is the problem then, fundamentally? Well, fundamentally, it's the economics of it all. If men can't find a way to make money, and if you do try to make money, like a trade, and you can't actually look after your family with it, and you can't build a family with it, then what's your vision and your purpose of existing? Yeah, and so then do you think that we go back

to the thing about absent fathers, like men just not being around because, and maybe because they're having to take two, three jobs. I just think family, like even a family that if a husband and wife divorce, separate and raise children separately, you can still create a blended family that's powerful and still centered and anchorable for other people to be developed, for young men to be developed in. So that's not immediately the problem. I think it's like, even when you are a young man, what is the purpose for young men to be developed in so that's not immediately the problem i think it's like even when you are a young man what is the purpose for young men right now we're asking for a shift and the shift has been centered on what women need which is an absolutely important part of the work but the next step is if we're going to say men change the environment that women live

under well what does the actual change look like for men there is no answer for this so men are shifting in the way that they work in the way that they exist absolutely right but then after that change who am i who am i now and anybody that's gone through transformation you don't just transform from i'm this person doing this and i'm going to be better but what does better mean like is it religion is it a more success? More success? Is it money? Is it what,

what is it? What's the code? And how do I do it? Without that information, you're just going to be aimless. And then you fall, you are allured by like a person being like, yeah,

I got a Bugatti and models and three wives. And I got 600,000 a month being made in my, but like, of course that's alluring because it's a vision. Even if it's a bad one, it's a vision of something that makes them have meaning. We haven't replaced the meaning for men and it still continues.

This is so fascinating. What's been an eye-opening experience for me, right? So I've got male friends and I'm not saying I know everything there is to know about men, but like, I'd like to think I knew enough, but actually what I have been so clueless about is this concept of economy, the cost of living crisis, male identity being really intrinsically linked with them feeling that they can't provide for their partners, for their families, for their girlfriends, men feeling like she's not going

to like me if I don't earn P, if I don't get the bag in. And our fathers, right, it was very clear those gender roles back in the day. I will earn money. I will provide. You will raise the kids or however it was. And it's like this new meaning of what it means to be a man is gone. And there is no new replacement. Like, what is it for guys? Especially now when women are pretty much doing it for themselves, right?

We're earning just as much, if not more. There was a statistic the other day saying girls are doing better than boys academically. Don't really need men now. I mean, we do need men. We always need men. We always need men. What for? Well, you know, having children, babies, right?

Like, so it's a big question. What is the new meaning to be a man? So I think the whole point of doing all of this shift is, is that men should be able to be whatever they want to be, just as women are being invited to be whatever it is that you want to be. It is perfectly socially acceptable for a woman to stay at home and not work, look after the children and be a homemaker. That is still acceptable.

But also if she wants to become the CEO, it's perfectly acceptable. And no one's like, you want to be a CEO? It's like, yeah, I want to be a CEO. Whereas for men, if he wants to become the CEO, it's perfectly acceptable. And no one's like, you want to be a CEO? It's like, yeah, I want to be a CEO. Whereas for men, if he wants to be a man-wife, even the term man-wife is so derogatory, isn't it? It's just like, why am I being framed in that way? If I want to be a stay-at-home dad, I should be allowed to be a stay-at-home dad socially, culturally,

and there should be things in place. So when we went up against the government and we've been making a point around paternity leave, it's because it's the worst in Europe. We get paid less than minimum wage and it doesn't go on for long enough for us to genuinely stay at home and connect to our children.

So that creates an inequality and it actually impacts women and mothers as much because if I can't stay at home because I lose so much money, then you have to stay at home even longer by yourself playing that role.

And I think because those options are not in place for men who are willing and open to do that, they don't have the actual economic support to do it. So I can't explain how much capitalism drives all of this behavior. I honestly did not realize this. Economics of dating, of relationships of like building a family building a home but I've definitely

got mates if they found out their male friends were house husbands would cuss them out or would judge them yeah so

how do we change those attitudes and women as well I know there are some women who you know judge men who decide to stay at home

and the woman's out making the money and earning. What would you say to that? There is a lot of elements in that because as I mentioned, there's a statutory point in terms of what the government puts in place or what companies put in place

to allow that to happen and stay at home from work longer. There's also social attitudes. Like a lot of feminism still is patriarchal. It's still centering men and so it's still like yeah i want to be able to do whatever i want to do but i need you to still be that patriarchal man at the same time whereas that defeats the whole object if your transformation doesn't mirror the changes that i would like to make in life so so there's been a lot of talk

over the years about how men can support women but flipping that how can women support men right now that's a great question puppy who wrote these questions these are the kind of questions i've been dying to ask how could you support how do we support you well look i i think there's a couple of things yeah one is like you really have to check in like if you have a brother and a husband or someone in your life as a man intentional check-ins like the way we check in with our girls deeper than that okay men need need separation you can't ask him in a group chat you can't ask him in like by in passing you have to go visit that man be like can you follow me to the shop? How are you? Like, and leave real space. And I ask it again, but how are you?

You've got to build that relationship. I cannot explain to you how many men do not have a place to answer that question. So when I do Men's Circle, every month is bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger to the point that we don't have any more space, really, for more men. I remember one time we was like,

can we invite women into a session so they can hear what's happening for men? And they were like, no. Why is that? And these are like open forward men. And they were just like, no, because we need this space so much. This is our only thing.

Like everything else has been opened up. And as I said, because there's been no support in that transition, this is the only space where they get to have support and say that I find it hard but then if women

heard them say that then we'd understand some of their struggles possibly but also they'd feel judged well like not every woman

is open and warm and fuzzy I know we kind of paint the picture we'll invite the warm and fuzzy ones no no you all stand together

we don't know which is which so I'm just saying there is this kind of blindness around You're like the warm and fuzzy ones. No, no. Hello? You all stand together. We don't know which is which. So I'm just saying. There is this kind of blindness around feminism where it's like every woman is equally as loving and warm. That's not true. So for me, and I love that you do that. And of course, men should have that safe space to talk.

And if they don't want women, they don't want women, right? And they have their reasons and they're totally valid in saying that. But only through doing this series with you, and maybe I do need to check in with my male friends more, more than I think I did, I guess it's getting that information, like knowing where are the holes, what are they struggling with, what did they wish that their sisters, wives, partners

could help them with, their friends, you know, do they feel like they're going to be mocked or judged? Do they feel like if they did open up to a girl, a female friend, whoever, that they'll be ridiculed? I guess for me, it's the insatiable thirst for knowledge and information. Like, how can I then support my brother, support my male friends?

Yeah, I think most of it is listening. There isn't really much action. I think another really simple thing is like listening out for the things that they struggle to do and like get it for them help them like someone's like oh i really need to get a razor like i keep forgetting to get it and just getting them a razor like tiny acts so that means oh you listen to me yeah like i think men just don't feel listened to so doing tiny things like that is better than any big gesture. You don't even need to do like, oh, I got you a trip to a... Just tiny gestures.

And when you say men don't feel listened to, what you mean is in that sort of very one-to-one... About their feelings. About their feelings, yeah. Yeah, if a man starts talking about world domination and these next 10 steps... Yeah, because I was going to say, when I listen to that, I'm like, men are listened to all the time, but actually...

For money, work, business. But in that sort of one-to-one setting. Yeah, how do you feel is crickets. my psychologist told me one time it's like if a man says in his family that i'm struggling well what does that mean for the safety of everybody else in the family so sometimes your partner won't be able to respond because they're invested in your well-being so if you're struggling what does that mean for us it's a similar thing for your partner a lot of the times women are looking for psychological safety from the world the world is very intense for them and how they're treated and so if you find a partner you're like I feel a bit safer in the world now I know I can call you and I know you're here looking after my

interests so that person becomes challenged well then what do we do? That's a massive impact in the safety of your life. So I think it's not always like women are not. Sometimes it's just the position that the dynamic creates and it doesn't allow you to be vulnerable in that space. You need other places to be vulnerable. That's not your partner, you mean? That's not your partner. So friends, family, therapists, like anybody,

anyone that's in the wellness space is a really good place for a man to go because you need to have your concerns received with like openness. And that's not always there. And no judgment and a sort of black canvas. Yeah, just like I can say broken things and it's not end of the world. Do you think that is changing amongst generations? So men are talking to other men about their feelings, about their struggles. i started dope like daz in eight years ago i was the only one

in therapy and now it's like 80 to 90 percent of our group are in therapy like regularly or in some sort of like development program coaching program it's just normalized the language has shifted like therapeutic language is just naturally entire inside everyone's way of speaking. I think it's dope. It's been a great progression. But maybe you won't see the progression in real time. It's something that you can only notice if you're in it.

And then I think one day you'll be like, this is just way better than it was 10 years ago. But I don't think we're there yet. I think women still think we're like 15, 20 years ago where men were just resistance to every single form of everything. That's not the case. Every man I know is doing something. As in working on their own mental health. In some way, shape or form, they're challenging something, working on something, building something. They're just, they're way more caring. They've genuinely sit here and think,

my partner said something and I don't think I get it, but I really want to know. Like I just, they're way more curious and interested in what women have experienced and doing something about it. And are you seeing a change in sort of older dads and younger dads? Is there a big difference? No, for sure. I still think that, yeah, I think if you're 50 to 60, your vision of parenting and masculinity is still very, very different.

If a young dad was listening to this episode and they had a young girl and a boy like yourself what advice would you give to that i'll be really honest i think i was very much clear on i wanted to be gender neutral in terms of how i raise my children but there is your children are here already what your real job is just to observe your children being who they are and support who they are so my daughter originally was like she wouldn't wear anything shiny pink she hated it she rejected all forms of dresses and then one day she wasn't even in school yet one day just shift unicorns please unicorns on everything i need everything to be

glitter i have she has nine tutus eight dress up dresses like it just came out of nowhere and I don't know what started that shift so if I'm not paying attention I have a shoved the dress down her throat before she's ready or when she's now like oh I want to wear a dress I'm like no no wear this neutral plain no I give I listen to who my daughter is and I support it and I give her options but she leads pay attention to who they are yeah and they will tell you exactly who they are and be really open to what it is that they show you okay do you have any questions about becoming a parent one day well i actually don't want to be a parent oh that's dope then yeah yeah then we're fine goodbye that was really quick it's a great segment only because um i had such a terrible time being a third parent to my siblings.

I do feel like my youth and my childhood was sort of robbed. Also, I've got loads of siblings. I'll just be a really good auntie. I cannot explain to you how powerful it is as a new generation of women who are just saying, I don't want to have children. I cannot explain. Because then I pray that the next step for men is that men will start having vasectomies. Men will just be like, I don't want to have children because I'm not going to be there.

And just stop having children that they don't want to have like it's just yeah one of the worst thing is to raise children and then know that you're they're not wanted yeah i know and it's also it's also being a parent i feel is like the most important job in the world it's also the most unregulated and i love my friends with kids i love their kids so i don't feel this need to be a mother or to have a child. But I guess my last final question to you is, what does being a father mean to you? Well, now it's the redemption for all the unknowns

and the hard work and the nights of thinking about it because it's really been actualized. Like I, my first first my one point of parenting is like i'm going to teach these kids to be great human beings i'm going to show them what like i had this real clear idea then you meet them and you're like oh you really have been here you're here you're ready and you're somebody and you have your own ideas and then it's just like i'm your coach so my job is just to coach you and challenge you on parts that you're not really good at things you don't want to do things that you resist and i'm just like you know my son wants to be a professional

football player i told him what it takes and i gave him went to chat gbt and we got a breakdown of his day and said what does he need to do if he's a football player and now he does it he does it he's changed his diet he goes to bed without question he literally has a ball at his feet all day and he's just doing stuff with a ball getting really comfortable and familiar with it the weight of it the size of it kickups and he goes to training and he's dedicated wow that is incredible he's done what i can't even do so yeah save it for my daughter she's an artist i said you gotta paint every single day like create something draw a picture paint something and so for most days she does the same. How old is she?

She's six. Oh my God, that's amazing. But that's what I mean by if you listen to your children and they tell you. And you support them. Just get out of the way. Don't like be a barrier to what is it trying to do. And I don't worry about her being an artist

and not being like a scholar because time evolves and things shift. But right now she's really passionate about creating. She's really, really good at it. And i have to support that and see what happens well it's been absolutely incredible having you on big boy energy thank you so much this is such an interesting title for a podcast we should investigate that more the way i think this has been pretty no no you've been asking me a lot of questions and it's fine because big boy energy sounds a very suggestive podcast and i'd like to know as you are not a big or a boy,

why have you come up with this language for a podcast? Well, I suppose the idea of Big Boy Energy came from what it means to be a man today. And like me, I thought it was one thing, but actually having eight different guests, all with completely unique perspectives to talk about fatherhood, to talk about what it means to be a man, to talk about racism. Yeah, Big Boy Energy is sort of celebrating men, but it's me just kind of really understanding men because I actually thought I knew men and I don't.

Can you tell me something that you love about your dad? Oh, that's a really good question. Oh, wow. I don't know why, I just felt emotional in that one moment that you asked me. What I really love about my dad now is that he really loves me. That's the only answer I have to give you now because you asked a really good, important question and I've never thought about it. But he has a very annoying way of showing it, but I know he really loves me and I know he wants the best for me. I think the greatest love that I will never experience because I don't want to have children is the love that a parent has for their child.

I think that love goes so deep beyond a partner having love for their husband, wife, etc. And I can feel that love he has for me because I'm his daughter. Yeah. Do you know his story? That's such a good question. I don't. And I've been trying to. I asked him the other day, literally the other day, when did you come to this country? And he said 21st of September.

That would have been a massive time for him politically to come to a new country. And I don't, and I wish I did. My dad never told me this, but he told a story to a friend of mine, the only halal white man that's allowed in my parents' house. And he told me this story about my dad. He came to this country and he was in year 10 or year 11. And he was in the boys' toilets. And there was a boy with a pocket knife and he attacked another boy and slashed his face this white boy to a Bengali student and my dad ran home ran home and didn't go to school for a week and was traumatized by it and to this day he's traumatized

by it because he doesn't talk to me about it and I just felt his pain I felt like all of this trapped he's never gone to therapy it's so so functional, the conversations with my dad. Do this, do that. Like I'm his PA, basically. Call this, call that, read this report. And I never sit down with him and find out who he is as a person and find out his stories and my mum's stories. Thank you for reminding me that that's something I really need to make an active effort.

So anyway, God, I started talking to you, it was like bloody therapy. No, but what I'm saying is that you're touching on a side of your dad that you haven't mentioned so far. No. But that's actually what he's living through.

He's living through that prism of all those things you just said. And that's the story that he has that guides his behaviour. The slashing used to be a thing. It used to be a mark. It used to be a thing that they would send other racists to go to initiate them.

I didn't know that. And it would usually find someone and you just slash them. If they replaced that boy with your dad, it could have been inverted. He would have gone on a completely different journey even still. But he just witnessed it and look what that created for him. And so that's what guides his relationship to you. So whenever I think about... And other people. He's so distrusting because it's really

important specifically for you that you've built a lot of understanding from your relationship with your parents and there's a lot of like your awareness of what his life and how that intersected with yours has created for you so forget everybody else just your for you your own justice and understanding is when you investigate if you ever find him speaking about anything you should try So forget everybody else. Just your, for you, your own justice and understanding is when you investigate, if you ever find him speaking about anything, you should try and record it. And anyone around him who has a story, record it.

Because it will paint a much better picture for anyone. And like your nieces and nephews will need that information. I'm a bloody director. I should film this. Do you know what I mean? I feel like you're qualified to do so. Thank you so much, Marvin, for coming on Big Boy Energy. That is a wrap.

Thank you so much for listening. If you have any thoughts or opinions or you want to share what Big Boy Energy means to you, WhatsApp me on 079-68-100-822. Daddy, bye. Daddy, what? I know, because then it's like, sugar daddy is weird. You guys get away with a lot here.

We've wrapped Big Boy Energy, and it's been such an eye-opening experience for me. I think the first thing that I've realised is that in this time of transition for men, their purpose and their role is undefined. So what does it mean to be a man in today's day and age? I don't think anyone really could give me an answer because I think they're still on that journey looking for an answer. I had absolutely no idea the social and economic pressures that men felt in particular. I think that probably comes from

the fact that I'm a raging feminist and I take care of myself so men can take care of themselves too. But this added pressure that a man feels to take care of his wife, partner and family is immense. And I don't really pay much attention to that and how it affected them. And finally, and this is fresh coming from me, that women need to listen, which I know is a very triggering thing to say because women think men are being listened to all the time but we do need to check in with our guy friends our brothers, our partners

and we need to do that more often so Big Boy Energy, what a journey