Brown Girls Do It Too - Guy Code with Kae Kurd

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

Poppy is joined by comedian and writer Kae Kurd to talk about guy code and brotherhood - what does modern masculinity look like, is there too much pressure on men and would you lie for your friend if they cheated. There’s a lot to unpack. Have a message for Poppy? If you’re over 16, you can message the BGDIT team via WhatsApp for free on 07968100822. Or email us at [e-mail]. If you're in the UK, for more BBC podcasts listen on BBC Sounds: bbc.in/3UjecF5

What words define boys? What words come to mind? Boisterous, loud. Okay, keep going. Strong. Ignorant. Yes. Agree with that one.

I can think of a seven-letter word, and that's warning, which is what I should probably give you now. This podcast will contain strong language and themes of an adult nature. Are you a swearer, Kay? I do like swearing, yes. I swear like a sailor. It's in my vernacular.

Can you sail, though? No. Well, I'm Bengali, so I should be able to, but no. You should. You should. I come from a long line of sailors. Yeah. You come from a long line of sailors and you can't sail.

I'm sure my ancestors are all sailors. You're sure? I'm pretty sure. I can't sail. I'm sure my ancestors are all sailors, but... You're sure? I'm pretty sure. I can't swim. You can't swim? No. And it's a life skill, but I can't swim. Well, I mean, are you even Bengali?

I know, right? I'm Poppy J, and you might have heard me on the award-winning podcast, Brown Girls Do It Too, which I present with my better half, Rubina Pabani. We speak about everything from our sex lives to female rage and from Excel spreadsheets that our tax dodging uncles would be proud of to the complicated relationships we have with our families. Rubina's just had a baby, so she's taking some well-earned time off to spend with her bubs. But before she left, she set me a little assignment. Since the beginning of time, women have been treated

as the more mysterious sex. But can anyone really claim to understand the hearts, minds and the dicks of men? So this is Big Boy Energy, a podcast where I'm on a mission to delve deep into the recesses of what men want, what they really think and find the answers we all want to know. Big. Boy. Energy. want to know. Today I'm joined by the hilarious, the creative writer and comedian, Kay Curd. Hello. So the one thing that's important to us at Brown Girls Do It Too is girl code and sisterhood. Okay.

Rubina Pabani is my sister from another mister. But since we're looking at big boy energy and with your help, Kay, i want to dive deep into guy code and brotherhood we usually hear a voice note from robina she asks us a question and we have to give our thoughts um so here it is hey there poppy my friend my love my darling my sweetheart uh i have a question for you about code. Not that you'd know anything about code, because you just think about binary code, or you think about your passcode for your phone. But I think we're talking about guy code and girl code. Do they mean the same thing? And is the whole idea of code just an excuse to cover up bad behavior?

See if you can crack that code. Usually I thought like chat GPT just helps you with code. Well, that's what a lot of developers are doing now. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're going to go out of business.

I've got a mate who's a writer and she uses chat GPT to help her write text messages to guys she's dating. So chat GPT has a lot of uses. Her, she, she's not successful, is she? She is actually. Well, dating. That's a very good question Her She's not successful is she? She is actually

In dating That's a very good question That's what I was going to say Yeah of course She might be successful I think she does it for shits and gigs But I don't know She's like

It's really helping me So I was like alright But that's weird Anyway Let's move on So how would you define guy code? Because I know there is guy code Just supporting your mates, really.

Supporting your guys. Yeah, like supporting your friends. Really? That's all it is, really, isn't it? It's very broad. That's a very broad...

I mean, of course, that's the same... You need to give me specific examples because for me, it's just like, yeah, supporting your friends in a broader sense.

Are you just asking, do I cover for my mates that cheat? Is that what you're asking? Well, that would be one of the scenarios I'd like to come to. Because that's where it feels like this is going.

Because when she said bad behavior, it feels like you're saying your mates are all fucking cheats. Do you back them? Well, that actually is one of the scenarios. So you wouldn't be wrong. But I asked a guy friend of mine yesterday. I was like, guy code and girl code, how are they different? And he said, with guys, if you and I were guys and we were mates yes

I could go out with any girl if we were straight and you could go out with any girl but we wouldn't have to veto each other's partners whereas best friends they veto the the boyfriend of the of the girl I thought girl code was you lot all if one of you goes to the toilet all of you have to go we do do that yeah that's what I'm saying. We share cubicles. Yeah, let's get to the specifics. I didn't realise women share cubicles. Someone told me the other day they share cubicles with their female friends.

I've peed in front of my female friends. That is disgusting. I haven't done it to you. Do you know how vile that is? Do you know if one of my friends was like, yo, I'm coming to the toilet. I'm like, yo, I'm coming too. But you've got urinals. So you're always having your hangings.

Yeah, but there's cubicles in a male toilet as well. Yeah, but urinals I'm sorry You guys literally Piss in public In front of each other And when you're like Shaking your dick

You're like checking out The other guy's dick No no Who is checking it out? Everyone checks out Everyone's dick No they don't Other than you

What is going on? Someone They're all doing it Do you know one thing That needs to stop? Do you know one thing That needs to stop? Okay say it right here

Big boy energy Let's go It's men at urinal getting their phones out scrolling while they're having a piss you're coming into a joint you're seeing a guy

at urinal just on like Instagram or whatever it's like bro it's like 30 seconds isn't it it's like do you know what I mean

like are you that desperate are you that addicted to your phone like there isn't isn't there something else that's more pressing right now

for you to be doing for you to be caring about that is ridiculous but you do have urinals. But girls are much more open about this stuff. Have you not seen your friend's dicks? No. Okay. Maybe this is a white thing.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Maybe this is a white thing because... I don't play rugby. Okay, so I think all the... I don't play rugby. I think rugby... Yeah, I think all the white male friends that I have, when they all live together in student... student accommodation, when they all live together

they're all like, I've seen everyone's dicks, they've all seen mine I think I think you're right actually, I don't think it's an ethnic thing Yeah, no, there's no way me and my boys are just like, oh let me Actually, now I think about it my Asian friends wouldn't do that in front of their other Asian friends, maybe it's like a white thing

So let's talk about the specifics of um yes what do you mean of Guy Codd so we had Asim on right and he was saying to me when he was up in the clubs and he was moving to a girl and say the girl didn't wasn't interested in him and his friend say you moved to that same girl he said to me oh I'd be I'd be he didn't say mad he'd be I can't remember what he said he said to me oh I'd be he didn't say mad I can't remember what he said he said I'd be a bit annoyed but I'd be like oh fuck

you fucking went there bro you did it you took one for the team wicked whereas if girls did that if two girls who were best friends made a move on the same guy

that would go down like a lead balloon lead balloon yeah but for guys I think it's more like if she don't like you and she likes my friend well good for you, if she don't like you and she likes my friend, well, good for you, innit? She didn't like me.

Like, why am I now blocking my friend's happiness? I know, that's what I'm saying. Guys are much more, they don't, it's not as deep for them. Whereas with girls. But why is that deep though? Because like, especially if that person doesn't like you, why do you now care? I don't know. I don't give a fuck,

but I have seen it in other girls. It does get deep, definitely, for sure. But it's not like you've married the person. No, no, I know. I know that. I know I'm a girl, and I can't speak puff on all girls, but I know it's definitely an issue.

So what kind of qualities do you think defines sort of brotherhood? Because girl code and guy code is different, isn't it? It's just being there for them when they need you. Like I'd much rather be there for my friends in times of need rather than when they're celebrating. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like if you actually need, you don't need me there for like a birthday, but like you, if you need me, like when something's gone down yeah then

that's brotherhood really do you have close female friends yeah okay and are you different with your female friends to your male friends um in what respects do you treat them all equally the same yeah like i think to a point where like sometimes you have to understand that you can't be as harsh with your female friends what do you mean because you think we can't be as harsh with your female friends. What do you mean? Because you think they can't take it? No, no, no, no. Like, don't come up to me with the same problem after I've already given you a solution. Do you not think guys do that, though?

No. Come on, guys do that. But they probably don't come to me because they know. Because they know you'll be like, bro, I fucking told you. Go fuck yourself. Well, I don't say that. But like if I've, I always think if you're telling more than three people about your problem, you don't want a solution.

You want sympathy. Yeah, I agree with you there. And if you keep coming to me with the same problem, you don't really want to change. You just want to chat to someone. At which point, I'm not your therapist in it. Go and find a therapist that can talk you through your issues rather than me having to do emotional labor all the time fair enough if it's like one time we've we work together we find a solution but then you go against everything i've just said to you yeah then what

are we what are we doing here right like i'm not obligated then afterwards to to have to like deal with it again fundamentally right what do you think a guy to guy friendship like how do you think a guy to guy friendship is different from a girl to girl friendship I won't talk to some of my friends

or see some of my friends for a year and then we can see each other and it's just like we haven't there's no time passed yeah

and we can just be cool whereas girls I feel like oh I haven't seen her you're absolutely right yeah I would have messaged my friends and I'd be like

bye talk to you in an hour and 47 minutes bye see you later yeah like you're absolutely right yeah it's just like I would have messaged my friends and I'd be like bye talk to you in an hour and 47 minutes bye see you later yeah like you lot will be meeting up with your best mate all the time

then get on the phone to her as you're making your way to your friend and you're like oh I can see you I can see you then you put the phone down and go and greet them in person

yeah whereas a guy's conversation is what are you saying you want to go in Ando's yeah and then they're like yeah cool other chicken shops are available like which one and you're like oh the one there the one in like

great portland street or whatever like cool in a bit yeah and then that's it like why am i on the phone to you for longer than 10 minutes if there's not like any business to discuss or anything okay but this is the thing like men are so business like what if you know women we want we want empathy we want the lols we want you know we want the lols. We want more. Do you not want more? We need support. There's money to make. Oh, come on.

Not everything is about money, right? No, it is. As a man, the pressure. You're right. I mean, money makes the world go round. But women, there is this myth that women and men have different needs. But I think women and men have the same needs. Do you think necessarily? On a human level, yeah, and men have the same needs. Do you think necessarily...

On a human level, yeah, we all have the same needs, but the way you process them is different. Different, right? Yeah. So do you think it's a good thing? I'm not saying it's a bad thing what you do, actually. And I have female friends and male friends where I haven't seen them in months.

They're like tier two, tier three. And I see them again and it's literally no time has passed. Yeah. But do you think that's a good thing to not see mates in that long? It's not a good thing, but I just think it's the nature of the society we live in nowadays. Everyone's always busy. Everything's gone up, so you're probably working a lot more.

Right, okay. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Trying to make ends meet and stuff. So when was the last time you spoke to your best friend? I speak to my friends all the time, but it would just literally be like, sometimes it's just a message or something like that. What do you guys talk about?

or you share a meme or something that's it I've seen I'll just send you a meme like I could be busy the whole day but I'll see a meme

I'll send it to one of my friends and it'll be like laugh out loud and it'll be cool but with boys though do you think it's like mostly

like lols and laughter do you go deeper like you wouldn't go deep in a group would you? no you could do at times yeah it just depends

on the setting though but I'm not gonna be like oh lads let's all meet up at like 7 to cry do you know what I mean like you don't just go like whereas I feel like girls are a lot more like

oh we need a good like oh girls it's like it's also called fucking pizza and like oh what's happened I'll tell you about it tonight

and then you all like have a good like trauma bonding sesh whereas with guys where do you get your trauma bonding sesh from you don't you just go to the gym and try and hit a pb is that i shouldn't be laughing i shouldn't be laughing is that a good thing it's just different look it doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing or a bad thing right i always think different things

work for different people so it's like a lot of people were like go oh my god man you need to go therapy therapy doesn't work for everybody i i i think's like a lot of people will go, oh my God, man, you need to go therapy. Therapy doesn't work for everybody. I think if you're an advocate for therapy, great for you. But if you don't like it, it's not for you, innit? And if you find other ways to make sure your mental health's in a good place, then wonderful. The idea that everybody needs to speak out about their emotions isn't necessarily a one-size-fits-all.

I understand what you're saying, K, but I'm taking it back one step. I understand your point and I agree. It's not therapy I'm talking about necessarily. What I'm saying is you said you want to hit your PB in the gym, right? Yeah, if you're angry. Yeah, I don't want to get too deep, but when you think about male mental health, male suicide, it's really high in men.

And it's one of the reasons is because men don't talk to each other as much. I think that's a myth. Well, the statistics don't lie. No, but people say it's like, because men will speak out and they'll say, I'm feeling a bit. And everyone's just like, I had a joke about it. Guys are just like, oh, that's mad bruv. Like, we're not mental health professionals. You're not mental health professionals. feeling a bit and everyone's just like I had a joke about it guys are just like oh that's mad bruv like we're not mental health professionals

you're not mental health professionals but do you think there's something about the way men don't really talk to each other as much I'm not saying talk to each other but the thing is men do talk to each other

but then there are some things where the nature of society nowadays just means that the pressures that you're under as a man sometimes, you can't, there's no way of solving them a lot of the time. Why? Because you're not talking to each other. That's probably why.

If someone's struggling to pay their rent, right? How is talking helping? It might help a little bit. I'm not saying it's going to solve their problem or pay their bills but it's going to but if you haven't I'm not saying you but if one hasn't done it

how does one know right no but that's why I said like there's different things that help different people yeah right but the idea

that they're all like oh men speak out men speak out guys do speak out there are lots of guys that speak out yeah and the thing is

the reason that they hesitate to speak out again is because when they've spoken to be it women or be it men, that one, it hasn't helped, or two, they've been met with disdain. Right. When you say disdain... I've seen it particularly with female friends. As in when a guy's opened up?

When a guy's opened up to them and they've gone, oh, he's so emotional and stuff like that so it's like there's reasons guys don't do it and just telling guys to speak out without equipping other people with the tools needed to help guys for what they're going through is it's just a waste of time because like you could tell people to speak out all the time but if i'm speaking out and you don't know how to deal with it and what's the what's the point we're just in a situation where now you know that I'm going through it, but you have no tools in order to help me.

And I'm still in the same situation. And now I probably feel even worse because I'm like, oh my God, I've let my guard down. Why do you think those women and some men are reacting to those men who have opened up and who've decided to be vulnerable with disdain? But don't you think it's a perpetuating cycle in our society where the moment a man opens up, he's seen as a pussyhole when actually we need to change that narrative.

We need to completely flip it. Well, if you've been telling men for years and years and years that they have to be providers, they have to be this, that, the other, they have to like make money to be seen as worthy. And then when you see like most male role models are either musicians or sportsmen who have got like a certain level of wealth and a certain level of money and they look a certain way and like they're the ones that get all the social clout.

You can see why men feel a certain way when they're on 27K and can't pay their rent or can't move out and can't start a family so do you think like money has a lot to do with a lot of men's problems a hundred percent well how do you mean because like i said they're told from young ages you've got to be the provider you've got to be this you've got to be that you've got to be strong you've got to be that and then when when they get to a certain level now, of course, like gender roles have gone out a window, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but they haven't been told another way to be masculine.

So if you're being told that you have to make money and to be a provider, and that's the only way that you can be a man, then when now you see that women are outperforming men in a lot of industries and sometimes they're getting paid more than them. So then when you're getting into a relationship with someone or you're trying to talk to somebody

and they earn more than you and whatever, where do you feel like your role lies? And also what you see perpetuated on social media is the aspect of the women that they want, what's this princess treatment what's princess treatment have you seen

have you seen this well girls are like I want to be wined and dined I want to so these are the things that get perpetuated online so you can see why

young men coming up think oh my god I need to be this that and the other to do I'm not saying this is what all men go through

but I'm saying like money as much as people want to laugh about it and whatever and say money doesn't solve anything money makes a lot of problems easier it doesn't yeah it doesn't get rid of all problems but it does take away a good good portion of them well you said something that was actually quite fascinating which I had never considered which is back in the day for our dad's generation our grandparents generation it was very clearly defined roles for men and women, right?

Yeah. And I think you touched on something that I had never considered, which is right now, the men that are coming up, where does that masculinity that our parents and our grandparents took on, where does that go? It's like a river, right? If you block this bit of the river, it's got to go another way. And I had never considered a guy and the male identity and masculinity

because before it would have to be strong. They'd have to be bringing home the money. Now women are working, right? Yes, I know you've got those princess girls on one side, but on the other side, you've got young girls. Well, not necessarily young, but girls who are working, earning their own peace. So what do they do?

That's the thing, though but like you speak to, you go on Hinge or any of these things and it says, what are you looking for? And they're like, I'm looking for a masculine man. I'm looking for a masculine man. Particularly when you see like Middle Eastern or brown girls. Really? Yes.

Strong, power, status, that sort of thing. A hundred percent. It's so divided. So some women are like, you'd say like me, who will work 60 hours happily to be independent. Sure. And other women are like those princess women who are like, I want the bag.

They still want to work, but they want somebody that makes more than them. More than them, yeah. It's not like they don't want to work. They still want to work. It's not that, but they want to be treated like a princess. It's okay. Us brown and Middle Eastern folk, obviously,

we have, you know, we live in big collectivist communities, mother-in-laws, you don't marry the person, you marry the family. Yeah.

And we uphold certain tradition and values that non-Asians, non-browns, non-Arabs might not value as much. So do you think

that plays a part? Do you know what I think? Because I've got West African friends that are in the church and all of that. And they have similar sort of... Same thing. Yeah. I think what gets pushed in the mainstream

often isn't what's actually going on in real life. Right. It's like, it's why time and time again, when even if we're taking it politically, when people were like, oh, I can't believe Trump got in. I'm like, I can. It was like when Brexit was happening and people were like, it's why time and time again, when, even if we're taking it politically, when people are like, oh, I can't believe Trump got in. I'm like, I can. It was like when Brexit was happening and people were like, oh, it will never happen. And I was like, I'm gigging outside of London every day, bro.

Like, I can see what's going to happen. And people are like, no, it will never happen. But it's like, what often happens in this like middle class bubble, which tends to be what you get in the media or whatever. Like, I always say people in the media are as often as out of touch as the politicians that they take the mick out of there's a section of society that just that i've obviously listened to those qualms and uh what people go through and then they've gone this is the way it is without taking the temperature of what is actually happening out out in the rest of the country

and it's like overnight we're calling these people bigots without trying to educate people yeah on what's happening on the ground well it's people on the ground

and educating them and I feel like a lot of the time people go oh yeah people are tired of this that and the other and it's like when you actually go and talk to

women or whatever they're like no I want this that and this it is fascinating talking to you actually go and talk to women or whatever, they're like, no, I want this, that and this. It is fascinating talking to you actually, because in my bubble, and you're so right about these bubbles and echo chambers, in my bubble, I thought more women were like me. I am not looking for a guy who earns more than me

or less than me. I want it to be the same. I'm not looking for someone who I can, you know, that trad wife culture. Yeah. I'm not into any of that shit. Yeah. But actually what you're saying is, the reality is,

when you're on dating apps, this is what you're seeing. You're seeing girls who are like actively using those words, masculine, chivalrous. Yes. Why do you think, do you think there's something happening in society now that's making them go the other way? Well, you can hear it at the time, Soyboy. What the fuck is Soyboy? And Simp soy boy and and simp and yeah yeah yeah but like i just think they like again it goes back to the idea of like someone that is quite open with their emotions and that sort of stuff i love them

there is nothing sexier to me than a guy who is emotionally intelligent and yeah but that's a different thing emotionally intelligent and a guy that's emotional are two different things. Well, when you say a guy that's emotional, you mean a guy that cries all the time? Not cries all the time, but even the fact that you're saying cries all the time. Okay, what does emotional mean to you?

Is he throwing a strop? If men actively go, I had a cry, 90% of women are turning off bro are they? 100% like it's it's different

if it's like that's your man and you've been together for a few years yeah and it's like he's just lit out of tears but if I was on a hinge date

number one with a guy and he said I've just had a cry yeah for example if me and you were on a date and you're like

oh my god I've had a terrible day I had to have a cry on a bus here I'd be like oh you're right like do you know what a date and you're like, oh my God, I've had a terrible day. I had to have a cry on the bus here. I'd be like, oh, you're right. Whereas you'd go, this loser. No, I wouldn't necessarily. You say that, but most women are gay.

You know what? I tell you what, can I be completely honest? If you had said exactly what I'd said to you, I'm not going to lie. I'd find it really discombobulating because I've never heard a man. I've never heard a man talk like that. And what you've just done is you've just highlighted how easy the hypocrisy in society, right?

The double standards. A woman could theoretically admit to a guy on a first date. I've just had a terrible day at work. I had to just had a little cry. I'm all right now. But if a guy said verbatim the same thing to the girl, yeah, I don't want to say I'd judge the guy, but I would find it odd.

It would be an odd turn of phrase because guys never do that. Guys never talk that way. Guys barely talk to each other. Well, in my opinion, guys are not as open to their guy mates as girls are. So as a society, do you think we're failing men? Sorry to go deep, but it's's true if a guy said he'd kind of cry i'd be like what so why is it that we're allowed i don't subscribe to the belief

that guys need to cry to be to be healthy men yeah but i'm not saying guys no no no but like people are like oh it's all right to have a cry yeah cool man it's all right to have a cry do you find it uncomfortable talking about crying or do you find it not really but i'm like i always look i i always just think okay you've done that now yeah stop dwelling on it let's go this has really been fascinating having you on because i genuinely you've dropped some truth bombs i hadn't even considered uh i'm gonna go back to guy code and girl code and give you some scenarios and i'd like you to tell me how you'd react. Okay.

So situation one, you're up in the club with your boys. Since you've known since primary school. He cheats on his girl in front of you. And they've been together for like a year. And you know his girlfriend a little bit. Like you've met her a few times. You're not close by any stretch, but you've met her a few times. The not close by any stretch but you've met her a few times the next day she messages you

and says she has a feeling he's being unfaithful she asks you did he cheat on me yesterday what do you do I'm ringing him up guy and bruv

okay talk to me no I'll ring up my friend and go yo your girl's mess because this has happened before okay so what have you done

I've literally just gone yo bro your girl's calling me like your girl's I'll send screenshots and just okay so what have you done I've literally just gone yo bro your girl's calling me like your girl's I'll send screenshots and just send it to him and be like yo bro sort this out bro I don't want to be in your business

okay and then what happens like and that's it and that's it no and I'm like what do you want me to say to her okay fine

and what do they usually want me to say just to back up just be like no no no it's cool whatever whatever and then I'm like alright cool it's not my

yeah I will tell my boys not to cheat I'll give you a couple instances where like if something like that does happen and then I'm like alright cool it's not my I will tell my boys not to cheat I'll give you a couple instances where like if something like that does happen but then I'm like bro

don't bring this shit around me because I'll tell you not to cheat so then if like I'm being implicated in this stuff don't

but like I'll back it for my friend because at the end of the day she's not my friend I don't know her like but they're my friend what do you think

I would do in that situation you'd probably tell the no actually girls will cover it up better than yeah they would girls will cover it up

better than guys would yeah I'm not I'm absolutely not yeah like the thing is I don't like people cheating anyway innit

so I'll just be like listen bro stop doing it but if like but that's what I'm saying like I don't i don't want to know your girlfriend like that until you're married okay let's flip it you're up in the club your guy cheats on a girl the wife of the guy the wife of the the wife of your friend yeah they're now married i'm still i'm messaging my friend Going yo bro You need to cut this shit out

I'm still talking to the guy first Okay yeah fine So you would never tell her No No Yeah It's not my place to Because often what happens

Is this as well And I've seen this happen They will make up Yeah And now you're not A friend anymore Right yeah They will make up

And get past Whatever issues they had If you're the snitch But now you're the bad guy Yeah if you're the a friend anymore. Right, yeah. They will make up and get past whatever issues they had. But if you're the snitch. But now you're the bad guy. Yeah, if you're the snitch, you're fucked. Yeah, now you're the bad guy. And they're like, oh yeah, and they distance themselves from you. Because then what happens is you're a reminder of when the relationship didn't work. Right, okay.

So basically, so I do the same thing that you would do. In that situation, I would just say say what do you want me to say and cover the lie yeah yeah but again with a stern talking to about infidelity

not even really really wow yeah these streets ain't loyal man wow women man I'm like scary stuff yeah

well think about it they've been together for a year that's not long and they're not married they're not you know it's not like not that I necessarily see marriage as commitment but it's not like it's not been together for a year that's not long and they're not married they're not you know it's not like not that I necessarily see marriage as commitment

but it's not like it's not like it's a 10 year thing do you know what I mean wow okay yeah cool

yeah but I wouldn't I wouldn't encourage it but you're just like oh fair enough not even necessarily fair enough I'd be like

what do you want me to say and do you want to sort this out because what's what's going on here okay like you should be on if you're not if you're not and do you want to sort this out because what's going on here? Okay. Like you should be honest. If you're not into him,

you need to be honest. Otherwise, you're hurting someone's feelings. Do you think it's worse when a woman cheats? I think it's when a woman cheats on a man than a man cheats on a woman. Yeah. No, I think it's equal. I need stats.

I need numbers. 411. How long? With who with? Like I need all of that why do you think it's worse than when a woman cheats

because a guy a guy will cheat on his missus a thousand times and then his woman will cheat on him he's like yo bro what did I do

to deserve this exactly hypocrisy in double standard yeah it's like so crazy it's like I think it's the same thing but like

there's a lot of people that would that say like it's that age old thing that gets bandied about where when girls cheat, it's more of a calculated emotional decision. I think that's bullshit, but it is emotional and calculated. You think it's bullshit, but you agree. But the thing is, men will fuck most things that move, right? Not all men, but they're mostly going for physicality

and they're mostly... The ability to switch off. Yes. Whereas women... Is a lot easier. Yeah, when we're cheating, we're cheating with our hearts and minds. And some women with their vaginas.

But that hearts and mind thing, that's wild, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it's a physical thing, you can sort of go, yeah, whatever. But ask, see, I agree with you. I completely agree with you. But ask any of my female friends, if they found out their partners were cheating on them, it'd fucking rip them to pieces.

But they say this. And then you see what happens all the time. The amount of women that take back men that cheat. Yeah, yeah, that's so true. There. The amount of women that take back men that cheat. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. There's so many of them that do. Why is that, you think? I mean, you have to ask women about that, right?

I can't speak for women. I have seen that. I can't speak for women. But I'm just saying it's a common thing that happens. Yeah, it is. Whereas I've seen guys whose women have cheated on them and they've just never gone back. Yeah.

Of course you get the odd few, but more commonly men are like, no, no way. Do you think that women take men back because they know when a man's cheated, it's mostly physical and not emotional? Yeah, that's what I'm saying, yeah. Yeah, so that's why she's like, well, if it's just, it was just a bang. Yeah, that's the way, I think that's the way they,

like he loves me, but he makes love to me, whereas he fucks them. Yes. So, Kay, what have we learned from today? We've learned that. You tell me. Well, I've learned something profound, actually. Like, where does this new masculinity go? What is this new form of masculinity?

Because men, they do, I think men, most men need to feel like, not that they can provide for women, but why do you think there's such an uptake with Andrew Tate and all these people, right? Men need a purpose. They need a purpose. They need a purpose. Exactly. And I completely agree with you. And now I feel like, and you can tell me if I'm wrong,

that purpose that was so simple and so black and white, you know, for our father's generation and before that, it's blurred and it's different. And so that's why... I mean, like I said, a lot of it has to do with the current situation that we're in. There's a lot of men in their 30s that are still in house shares, close to 40 that are still in house shares.

The idea of having their own place is that we see this week, as we're recording, they're saying that fertility rates are the lowest that they've ever been. For every 100 adults, you're going to have

52 grandchildren, which is like no way for an economy to sustain itself. And it's like, why are these things happening is because people can't commit to one another

because of financial constraints on them. If you can't earn the money that you want living outside of one of the major cities, people are like, oh yeah, just move out of one of the major cities. Well, I can't earn the money that you want living outside of one of the major cities people are like oh yeah just move out

of one of the major cities well I can't make the money that I make that I'm doing in my current job so then now I'm in a house share with a bunch of other people

and I've got flatmates and whatever how does that mean how can I then bring up a family or how can I attract a long term relationship that's what a lot of guys

think and a lot and a lot of guys don't want to commit to people in relationship, to women in relationships before they feel like they've got everything. Financially independent. Yeah, they've got it. And they can survive.

Because what happens if, for example, me and you are married or whatever, or in a relationship, and I've got you pregnant, and now your line of income's gone. And then now I have to think about childcare. If you go back to work, childcare is like, well, I mean, it's like so expensive.

Yeah. It's like the second most expensive in the Western world in this country. Yeah. So like for, for, for one child, you're looking at like 1500 a month. So then you start weighing up all of that.

And then it's just like, you just feel a bit hopeless as a person. Cause you're, you're like, well, how, how is this ever going to happen? I can't even sustain myself at the moment properly.

I can't even, like simple joys have been taken from a whole generation and it's just not male specific. But I feel like when you've placed the burden on men for so many years to say you need to be a provider and a protector and X, Y, and the third, that when we are in the economic situation that we're in and they can't do any of that you get a generation that are just confused about their masculinity fuck what a note to end it on how do we change that what do we do make more money be you've just put more pressure on men after saying there's so much pressure on men pressure makes diamonds baby

oh well I'm joking listen I don't have the answers I just tell jokes innit like I'm not I'm not smart if I was smarter than I am

I'd be I'd be doing something else I tell jokes like that's what I chose to do but jokes are so your jokes are so smart I went to one of your shows actually

and you know I was totally taken aback by the crowd you have such a diverse mixed crowd that one of your shows, actually, and you know I was totally taken aback by the crowd. You have such a diverse mixed crowd that come to your shows, which I think is brilliant. Thank you. Thank you so much, Kay, for coming on Big Boy Energy. Thank you for having me.

I've learned. You've given me some real nuggets. I hope I don't get cancelled for this. No, you're not going to get cancelled. You're not going to get cancelled. But I mean, other than boys earning money, what else can we actually do? Girls or guys,

just try and be the best version of you that you can be. I'd always say just constantly try and work on yourself and don't be afraid to sometimes take a step back, chill out and then go again. And on that note, thank you so much, Kay. This has been Big Boy Energy. Thank you for listening. If you have any thoughts, opinions,

or you want to share what Big Boy Energy means to you, WhatsApp me on 07968 100 822. Want me to say boys boy bye? Okay, bye. Why don't you finish it? Okay, bye. Big Boy Energy.